Gold Medals and Gender Imbalances: Architecture Industry Insights from Dr. Liz Walder

0049 - A conversation with the fantastic Dr Liz Walder
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[00:00:00]

Introduction and Guest Introduction
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. I am Steven Drew from The Architecture Social, and I'm joined here by a fantastic guest who's actually also a moderator on The Architecture Social. Dr. Liz Walder. FRSA. MCIPR. And a wonderful doctor who's contributes to the Architecture Social. How are you? I'm okay. I'm good,

Dr Liz Walder: thanks.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Becoming Dr. Liz: The Journey
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Stephen Drew: So just before this, we had a little bit of debate because I signed up to the Royal Society of Arts just before the coronavirus hit in. Yeah. But I can see you're an FRSA member, but for anyone that doesn't know you, you're more than that. You're a doctor. Of architecture, yeah. Yes, so you're straight away much more clever than me.

Stephen Drew: I've

Dr Liz Walder: only got

Stephen Drew: 5 O levels. Have you?

Dr Liz Walder: Yeah. That's a turnaround isn't it? I'm a late developer. [00:01:00]

Stephen Drew: You can tell your teacher at the start. You can be like, look at me now. They're like, wow, Liz, you've done really well. You're like, that's Dr. Liz to you, I'll have you now.

Dr Liz Walder: Yeah, when I went to teach at the Welsh School of Architecture, probably about five years ago now A student came up to me with a question in the middle, interval in a lecture.

Dr Liz Walder: And she said, Dr. Walder, buuuh, the question was. And I was listening to this, and I was thinking, Dr. Walder sounds a bit grand. But it's not really me, I don't want to be called Dr. Walder. So I looked at her and I said, you can just call me Liz. So she said, okay, Dr. Liz, blah, blah, blah, and after that it's stuck.

Dr Liz Walder: And now, in the the students all call me Dr. Liz, they just, that's just stuck. And my teacher's assistant, and now he, even though neither of us teach at Cardiff anymore, he still texts me and it just says at the top, Dr. Liz, blah, blah, blah, whatever is the question.

Stephen Drew: Wow, this is what I call you, Dr.

Stephen Drew: Liz.

Joining The Architecture Social
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Stephen Drew: And so let's talk about how we met, actually. So I do a live stream on the Arctic to Social. And you were one of the fab guests in the audience, [00:02:00] which kind of started commenting and I love that because half of it's conversation, but obviously having the doctor in that first, I was like, Oh we've got to be professional now.

Stephen Drew: I know what we're talking about. I came across

Dr Liz Walder: it by pure chance, really. I'm quite active on LinkedIn. I think I've got I pay for a profile, but it might be a navigator profile in LinkedIn. And so I can access more information and search more because I'm using it quite a lot for business connections.

Dr Liz Walder: And I just came across it one week and I just thought, hey, this looks interesting. Wonder what this is about. And I went in and you were sitting there talking, I think, to Will. And this is quite cool. And then after that you had a thing when you were showing off like developments in the field.

Dr Liz Walder: And I was like I see those kind of things come across my desk because I do, I'm in touch with a couple of practices that I do a bit of social media for. And I was like I could send you the stories that I come across if you like. And that's how it started.

Stephen Drew: This is it. Have you seen today?

Stephen Drew: So we've got that area in the architecture social now, Liz. So we can, if you post in the [00:03:00] stuff. We'll get it online, but why I love you in the, in, in the audience is because then it adds an air of professionality to the architecture show.

Current Projects and Initiatives
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Stephen Drew: But so apart from tuning in them, it's let's talk a little bit about what you currently do as well.

Stephen Drew: So you mentioned briefly, you taught before, do you want to fill us in on what you're up to right now? And

Dr Liz Walder: so I run a practice part time good architecture matters. And I registered the name and I've got the domain name and everything. I'm trying to build the website. Anyway, that's enough. I'm flat out with work in that practice and I work with a collaborator as well.

Dr Liz Walder: I do projects with someone else. I teach part time at Trinity St David, which is in Swansea. And I've just signed up to run a new initiative for the Jordan Legacy, which is about designing out suicide. So the emphasis through that is to change the building regs to be more aware of suicide prevention in structures.

Dr Liz Walder: So I just read part M last night. What is part M? What [00:04:00] happened in like A

Stephen Drew: to N?

Dr Liz Walder: Oh, the rest of it is, I don't know them all, there's one on fire, one on ventilation. Some of them are like key, like fire after Grenville was reviewed and updated and they're usually updated on a five year cycle and there is a devolved responsibility.

Dr Liz Walder: So that means that there's a fire regulation under the building regs for England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. So if you want to change it, you've got to do it four times.

Stephen Drew: I've got something here for you and you can debunk this or not, but I hear that there was a building in New York or something and the way it was designed, whether it was accidental or not, but basically everyone started like jumping out and trying to commit suicide.

Stephen Drew: And it was partly because of how awful the building was designed inadvertently. And it was one of the precedents I hear about. So I'll try to find out if that's real or not, Dr. Liz. I don't know, but there

Dr Liz Walder: is a Heatherwick building, Thomas Heatherwick building, some people have, I think it's called the skull skeleton or something [00:05:00] like that.

Dr Liz Walder: I just saw it flash across the wires earlier today and people, and they've stopped construction, or they've stopped something to do with it because people are jumping out of it. Really? I can't remember

Stephen Drew: where it is. Sorry. I get so much. I love this. I love this in the podcast. You're like doing it live.

Stephen Drew: You're looking at things now. This isn't, you've now officially making this an informative learning experience. This is probably the first episode.

Dr Liz Walder: I'm sorry. I can't remember the I can't remember the details of it. I saw it earlier when I was looking for something else. And And I didn't make a note of it, because I didn't know I was going to be asked the question.

Stephen Drew: Don't worry, no, we're freestyling. Look, this is about relaxing, we need to relax, there's too much stresses. Put the keyboard aside, I just want everyone to know the fab Dr Liz. Oh, do you know what, we've got to do the laboratory as well, aren't we? Yeah, so we've set up

Dr Liz Walder: Steve and I have set up Dr Liz's laboratory, and the idea in there is to creates the mini projects that we can then push out [00:06:00] into a bigger, into the social to get people involved in Yeah, but it's a sort of I dunno a little egg of creation there, isn't it?

Dr Liz Walder: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: It's like your own little studio. The way I see it and I you know what we're talking about, maybe Excel tables and stuff, but actually people can just post stuff on there and we can find a way to categorize it. And I actually. I actually know a way that we can categorize. Maybe we move you from a group.

Stephen Drew: Like a kind of

Dr Liz Walder: incubator, isn't it, really? Yeah,

Stephen Drew: we'll put it in the resources section because then what you can do, Dr Liz, is you can construct your crazy course in the MAD Laboratory. This sounds amazing already. So I know

Dr Liz Walder: when I was going to do my PhD I fell into architectural history, and I came up with a subject and I was asked to consult with a database that was held in Leeds by somebody who's in art history. And I, and the idea is that when you do a PhD, it has to be original thought. So if you consult this database, your subject is already there, then you have to change your subject or do it from [00:07:00] a different point of view.

Dr Liz Walder: And because I know that database is really helpful for me, I was thinking maybe I could create something like that with undergraduate work, like a final year project or something. And particularly, so we have students who write dissertations, not every course does that, but I think it would be like a useful resource.

Dr Liz Walder: Yeah. Particularly in the COVID environment, because we are, they didn't have a graduation ceremony last year. And what does everybody want in life? They want to be recognized, they want to be remembered. So if I can create something like this, like some kind of database for this information in, at least it's a starting point for future researchers.

Stephen Drew: I've got a,

Dr Liz Walder: so that's going on in

Stephen Drew: the lab. I'm I won't be able to do anything in the lab, but I will build you that lab. It's like breaking bad over here, isn't it? Gosh, God knows what we'll be cooking up in there. But let's touch up on that briefly because one of the things when we were first talked about this and you give me homework and.

Stephen Drew: Which [00:08:00] is yeah, you give me the other podcast, which I actually enjoyed. It was a really fantastic surprise. Oh, yeah.

The RIBA Gold Medal and PhD Insights
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Stephen Drew: So I've actually have done research tech is research technically on this because I listened to your podcast about your PhD and the Reba medal. And it was really intriguing. We'll put a link to that underneath this as well.

Dr Liz Walder: So what Steve's referring to is, I was interviewed by VivaSurvivor. com, which is What is that

Stephen Drew: though? Because the title sounded like a travel blog.

Dr Liz Walder: So when you do your PhD, you have to have a conversation at the end, that's the exam part. And that's called a

Dr Liz Walder: Fiverr,

Dr Liz Walder: which is a Latin word for like this. I don't actually know

Stephen Drew: what

Dr Liz Walder: it means, but I'll

Stephen Drew: look it up so I don't look stupid.

Stephen Drew: And you look incredibly smart when I'm interviewing this, so don't worry.

Dr Liz Walder: And Fiverr is So this guy who's called Nathan Ryder he has his own PhD, I think it's in mathematics. And he set up this po this like podcast webinar thing called Viva Survivor. And it's designed for people who have to go through [00:09:00] a Viva, so who are doing a PhD and they don't know.

Dr Liz Walder: Maybe what questions they're going to be asked or how the Viva works. And I was the first student on Viva Survivor who had done a Viva, who had done a PhD part time. So that meant I was of quite good interest to him and I did it very quickly. I think probably a month after I did my final, my Viva.

Stephen Drew: So it was, it

Dr Liz Walder: was, so it was all quite fresh in your head, really.

Stephen Drew: It's interesting. It was good and I enjoyed it. It was what I found fascinating. So let's talk about what the subject was to anyone. So what did you write? Your PhD on. I can see that, but people can't so it's the right reba's gold medal.

Stephen Drew: So I, I

Dr Liz Walder: worked in I looked after RIPA awards for London region in the RIPA, and I wanted to originally write it on the awards, but they were only 40 years old. So, the [00:10:00] people I, the academics that I consulted around the time, they said, why don't you do it on the RIBA raw gold medal? Because it started.

Dr Liz Walder: I had quite a long period of time and nothing had been written about it at all. And so I was like the first person to come in and do serious research and I discovered quite a lot of interesting facts about it. So it's called the Royal Gold Medal, but it's not actually made of gold anymore. I

Stephen Drew: was amazed when you dropped that, that was a mic drop, wasn't it?

Dr Liz Walder: Which was quite interesting. There's a really interesting example of that. So Richard Morris Hunt had a gold medal. He was an American. I, off the top of my head, I can't remember when, but it was like the early 1900s, 1903, something like that. And he he was it's either him or Charles Follimer Kim, I can't remember which one.

Dr Liz Walder: But they, whoever it was they liked the gold medal so much they wanted to display it. So they had a plaster cast made of it, painted it, with like gold leaf. But obviously the weight of a plaster cast is completely different to the weight of gold medal. Plaster cast is a [00:11:00] much lighter thing.

Dr Liz Walder: Anyway this cast was given, left somewhere. And when this architect died is I don't know what happened to his ex, but the met the the museum put it all under lock and key because it was a gold medal. I got it when I started researching because one of my tasks was to track down as many medals as possible.

Dr Liz Walder: And when I was showing photographs of this gold medal in this American museum, it had no hallmark on it. And I thought, so I asked them to weigh it and I then had, when they told me how light it was, I then had to share with them, but actually that's a plaster cast covered in gold leaf under lock and key, not a real gold medal.

Dr Liz Walder: Right.

Dr Liz Walder: So there was a few, and I was, I said, I can remember saying to Neil Jackson, my supervisor, this is quite momentous. Do you think I should actually tell them that the thing that they've got in a case under lock and key is only a blasticle? And he was like, yes, you have to be honest. Yeah, so that was I, found kind of those kind of [00:12:00] things out.

Dr Liz Walder: All the, as many living medalists as possible. I got to go and see an interview. So I had 27 minutes with Norma Foster, three hours with Richard Rogers. Wow. I sat on the train with her at Stockholm de Meyron. Three hours

Stephen Drew: with Richard Rodgers? Yep. Wow.

Dr Liz Walder: Long

Stephen Drew: time.

Dr Liz Walder: And and, I put, I had a contact at the the Numismatics Society that is a coin curator at the British Museum.

Dr Liz Walder: And he put a piece about the, because it's coins and medals they can categorize those in the, I don't know, the Numismatics Magazine. And through that, some medal collectors got in touch with me. So it was quite interesting to see where the medals ended up. Not all of them were kept in the family.

Dr Liz Walder: Archives I bumped into somebody really early on a lecture at the Royal Academy and he turned out to be the son of Giles Gilbert Scott.

Dr Liz Walder: Right,

Dr Liz Walder: wow. And Giles Gilbert Scott got the medal and his grandfather, Sir George Gilbert Scott, got his own gold medal. So I went to see them and I had two gold medals in my hand at one point, it was quite exciting.

Dr Liz Walder: I Were they really

Stephen Drew: gold [00:13:00] though, Dr. Liz?

Dr Liz Walder: Is it gold? Yes, they were they really

Stephen Drew: gold or they plasterboard or whatever.

Dr Liz Walder: The George Gilbert Scotch is gold because he got it like in the 18 1850s.

Stephen Drew: Wow.

Dr Liz Walder: And John Houses is also is gold, but not like it probably started off about 24 carat and then it was the mint make it and they chop it down every year.

Dr Liz Walder: And then probably about the 90, I haven't got the exact date to hand, but in the 1970s it was. Made into silver gilt, which is basically a silver medal covered in gold.

Stephen Drew: Wow. Is there any way that I've got two questions that come to mind. So if anyone wanted to listen read this or look through this, because I can see you flicking through the copy.

Stephen Drew: Is that the only copy in the world or is it online that people can buy

Dr Liz Walder: it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Dr Liz Walder: Oh, it's here. Here,

Dr Liz Walder: I have it published, my PhD. It's called. Oh, cool. It's called History, design and Legacy. And it was published two, 2009 the Gold Medal. So the PhD only goes up to 2012. But I, [00:14:00] but, and this is literally the PhD just published, but I do keep the statistics every year, so I do try and, Oh, that's cool.

Dr Liz Walder: Yeah. 'cause I do a lot of forecasting and predictions about who's gonna win. So I do try and keep really, yeah. Yeah. And also. I try and speak at a conference once a year and you need to have the up to date statistics. I, I do have some pieces of information in there. So yeah, you can get it, you can get it on Kindle now.

Dr Liz Walder: We put the price, the cover price I think was about 35 quid for this and it was the first book for this publisher that went into three figures for the royalties.

Stephen Drew: No

Dr Liz Walder: way. Yeah, because I, I did a lot of publicity. I've badged all the schools of architecture to buy a copy.

Stephen Drew: Three figures worth so much.

Stephen Drew: Oh, one of my four, six figures

Dr Liz Walder: for me, he earned more as well, a publisher. Anyway, you can also get this, I think you can buy it now on Kindle as well.

Stephen Drew: What we'll do after this, as, I'll get the link for it and we'll put the link up for.

Dr Liz Walder: It has pictures.

Stephen Drew: Cool. I'll put the link Dr. Liz, [00:15:00] at the end of this.

Stephen Drew: That's amazing.

Gender Imbalance in Architecture Awards
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Stephen Drew: If you don't want to

Dr Liz Walder: buy that because you think it's too expensive, I went to a conference in 2018 and I did a paper about why is it so difficult for women to win the architectural prizes, which started a chain of events like nominating women. And that's why Grafton Architects. One gold, Pritzker, and the gold medal last year, and also Zoha Hadid and O'Donnell and Toomey and various people.

Dr Liz Walder: And that also got published, the conference paper. So this is a much shorter thing. This is called Going for Gold, looking at the gender imbalance, recipients of major architectural awards and prizes. This is also available online. And this, as a book, this was 10, it's probably much less now, probably about 10 this evening probably.

Dr Liz Walder: Yeah this was my my conference paper. And the idea was that we were going to publish a conference paper every year. Ah, then Covid came along.

Dr Liz Walder: No we didn't. The last year's publication that I wrote was a contribution to an international thing about COVID, it was like how are you coping with COVID?

Dr Liz Walder: And I wrote a paper about [00:16:00] communication, so it wasn't anything to do with design. This year I'll probably, I'm giving a conference paper at the end of the month, which is about future of architectural practice post COVID. And I'm speaking tomorrow about design out suicide. So one of those will end up as a publication this year.

Stephen Drew: Wow, you've got, what you could always, if you run out of ideas, you can do one on the the architecture social show, right? The complete dribble of Steve and Drew online, huh?

Dr Liz Walder: No, because this would be about cultural, um, society and what you're doing with the architecture social is, you're providing like an an outlet.

Dr Liz Walder: So I know that there's a whole element to it, which is about recruitment and job. Availability and kind of the advertisement of that actually explaining the jobs to people rather than just sending it as an email, but also there's an engagement. Within architecture and there's a lot of the audience is students or, coming back into architecture from being in practice.

Dr Liz Walder: And I think there is no other platform like this that [00:17:00] engages so well,

Stephen Drew: that's really sweet. That's really sweet. Because I'm glad you appreciate that. It makes it all worth it, because sometimes it can feel like a lot of work, but I think such as anything. That is a bit extra special, there's a lot of work, I imagine there was a few times doing your PhD when you felt like throwing the book out the window.

Dr Liz Walder: Yeah, I just look up above my head and there's a book above me, I've got a big shelf in my office at home and it's called The Genius of John Ruskin. And it's basically about his writings and, he was like, an early architect and John Ruskin was the first person to refuse the gold medal.

Dr Liz Walder: Really? Okay. Okay. And when they made the gold medal, they inscribed the name of the person on the edge. So his medal was made for him and he refused it. So it had to be melted down and given to someone else.

Dr Liz Walder: So every time I think about throwing a towel in, I look up and I see that book and I think there was all that performance with the medal and, we got through it. So it can't be that [00:18:00] bad,

Stephen Drew: yeah. And you know what? I joke, I guess that. The thing is with the social and especially the live broadcast, because I think, let's talk about that a little bit, because that's how we met.

Stephen Drew: I think it's always interesting trying to get the balance between, I try to get it informative, but a little bit light and a little bit fun, where it's almost, and what's great is for instance, you today, you and Gavin today were having a bit of a conversation, which kind of came out of nowhere, and that's the kind of point.

Stephen Drew: And I maybe I'm sometimes on the sound. A bit harsh for myself, but I think you have to Sometimes not take yourselves too seriously, and that's the bit I try to do with the social of, because live streaming, you can totally say the wrong things. It's like today when I was telling you, my friend, one of the beautiful Heatherwick buildings in Wales, and you're like, seriously, Steve, it's Richard Rodgers.

Stephen Drew: And I'm like, nah, he's got this, he's got this brilliant flowing building, and you're like, yeah, it's a Richard Rodgers. And I come off and I'm like, oh yeah, it's a Richard Rodgers building. You just sometimes gotta like. [00:19:00] You gotta take it on the chin, and I'm, and you know what, the reception's been really good actually, and that's what I love, and hopefully the tone I go for is, if it can provide a bit of light relief for everyone who's on a lunch break, or whatever, then brilliant.

Stephen Drew: And I think

Dr Liz Walder: it opens people's eyes up to um, other people working in the field. So today, you did a comparison between a building from Thomas Heatherwick and a building by Rem Koolhaas. And there will be people in the room who might have read about Rem Koolhaas in a magazine, but might never have seen a building being discussed in that way.

Dr Liz Walder: And there might be somebody, in that audience who's maybe a Part 2 student who wants to work on a skyscraper. Or, sorry, that's what we were talking, referencing about with the Rem Koolhaas building. And I, you never know. What kind of seeds are planted?

Stephen Drew: Yeah and the other bit I like as well is that you can go into it as much or as little or as deep as you want.

Stephen Drew: So with the social, I'd almost say, that's why I the last week and this week and I, it seems to [00:20:00] be going down the tree is that we got the badass building award and and it's compared to the gold medal. Actually, it's quite ironic we're having this chat because you wrote the book on the Reba gold medal and I'm just saying who gets the badass building award and I liked your message after.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I will tell you what I would be honored Dr. Liz if you want to design the Architectural Social badass building award of the week. Graphic or something you mean? Yeah, do you know what I mean? A bit of light fun and hey, you know,

Dr Liz Walder: After Prince Charles referenced the carbuncle, do you remember that?

Dr Liz Walder: 1984. Yeah. So I don't expect you were born, cause you're so young. At 87 I was born. Okay. So in 1984, Prince Charles made this comment about the carbuncle on the face of a much loved friend. And the, he was talking about this proposed extension to the National Gallery in London that was going to be by ABK.

Dr Liz Walder: And the outcry, the out, fallout from that was like huge. But [00:21:00] anyway, as a result of that, BD, as in Building Design Magazine, they set up an award called the Carbuncle Award, which is given to the ugliest building.

Stephen Drew: Oh, I know. I know it very well because I worked at EPR Architects and they got it once and you know what was really a bit of a difficult one.

Stephen Drew: They were really good about it because actually. They didn't design the building, they did the executive architecture. I

Dr Liz Walder: teach, when I teach students, I believe that I should just like almost open Pandora's box of architecture and show to the students. So obviously I work through themes because I can't do everything in, one go and that might be periods or it might be a specific theme, but I give them good and bad.

Dr Liz Walder: So I've, when I talked about post modernism, because that's the period in which 1984, the I referenced that the Carbu conversation first Prince Charles, and then I also referenced the Carbu Cup. So those, my students are [00:22:00] exposed to. This is fantastic design. And this is Carbu level.

Stephen Drew: Do you know what though?

Stephen Drew: There's so many buildings, which are quite awful, which don't make it into the car, bunker Cup. And then on the other hand, I saw like I live in Lewisham. Yeah. And one of the Lewisham towers was in the car Bunker Cup. And I'm just like. Are you serious? If you go down to Catford, it gets a lot worse. I was like, these guys have had a bad time because, yeah, it's not perfect, but what it did is it still added a lot to the community and there was nothing there before.

Stephen Drew: And, sometimes you've got the argument of, I live in Lewisham, it is huge gains to the gentrification, but. Okay, it wasn't the most profound design, but it served a purpose, and I thought, compared to some, it wasn't that bad, because sometimes you look at the awards and you're like, okay, I see why you got the Carbuncle.

Stephen Drew: Lewis Carroll, is

Dr Liz Walder: it?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, there was, I think it was by it was by PRP, it was the one near the [00:23:00] station.

Dr Liz Walder: Oh, Lewisham Gateway? Yeah, I know this. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I felt it was a little bit harsh.

Stephen Drew: I wouldn't say that's super car I'm glad it didn't win because there's a lot more serial offenders around.

Stephen Drew: Oh, there you go, I've got my little thing here. Way more voice ones out there than the Lewisham Gateway. Do you know what I mean? Because sometimes you think, Ah, I don't know. But it's very interesting. I

Subjectivity and Bias in Architecture
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Dr Liz Walder: do give a lecture that's about, it's called Pride and Prejudice.

Dr Liz Walder: And it's about subjectivity, bias and prejudice in architecture. And what we're discussing is quite subjective, isn't it? And particularly when you start looking at awards, that's very subjective. And it depends on who wrote what about whom.

Stephen Drew: You know what you're talking about transcends even just buildings that we can, let's talk about where recruitment, what I do, you can get massive what was the word subjective biases and is, and I think a really good talking point on that is pictures of people, individuals in CVs.

Stephen Drew: Because it can either go down [00:24:00] the drain or it almost detracts from someone getting a job. And it's not malicious, but the person who's looking at it will always have a bit of a subconscious bias. It's, and and I think it was interesting because Jack Pringle, he talked about on Twitter, actually, he did a course on these these biases.

Stephen Drew: That they weren't even aware of and it was interesting because he was like, I'm surprised because I thought I didn't have biases and clearly I do and I don't think anything grand. But what he was saying is everyone could benefit from it. But on the other end of the scale, I've done recruitment for councils and it gets to the point when.

Stephen Drew: You send in the CV through and especially in the council and they the standard procedure is removing references to he, she throughout the CV. And I think that's a little bit far because I always feel like it's the best person for the job. It's a shame you get biases and, but the work represents itself, but it's definitely a minefield because it's sometimes it's like, how far do you go with that?

Stephen Drew: [00:25:00] Because. When you reference, it was funny because I submitted one CV and when I had to take out the references for he, she, I felt like it looked like one of them crossword puzzles in the, in the newspaper with big gaps everywhere because you couldn't say anything. And actually what was then upsetting about that is that the CV, it detracted from the CV because the person's constantly seeing the gaps and therefore.

Stephen Drew: that person was actually at a disadvantage against having their gender in there, it's crazy, isn't it? I

Diversity and Inclusion in Architecture
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Dr Liz Walder: mean, we are now on a, we're moving forward in architecture terms into equality, almost, more women are coming through. I just looked at the

Stephen Drew: statistics

Dr Liz Walder: for our years in Trinity, St.

Dr Liz Walder: David, and, the new intake that will come hopefully, at the end of the summer is. 50 50 men, women, and that's the first time I've ever seen that. All the work that I've been doing on gender is it's worked out basically. Black Lives Matter is the next thing.

Dr Liz Walder: So [00:26:00] there's quite a lot of black architect groups on Twitter who are quite active. Yeah. The RIBA have appointed somebody who's the head of change. So I think they are moving, validation and coursework and those kind of things. It's going to come through an education for more non white architects.

Dr Liz Walder: David Adjaye just been given a gold medal anyway. And

Stephen Drew: that's

Dr Liz Walder: great. I know there's some female black architects. Yeah, I'm basically part of here who are working and then the next one after that will probably be, looking at mental health in that area. So there are these changes of thought and things are happening and changing slowly, like you just referenced about the he, she pronoun.

Dr Liz Walder: I think that the he, she, they pronoun that will come in as well, possibly in the next phase after a non white architecture.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Do you know what? It's I think that. Architecture has come a long way, especially in the time that I've a was an industry. Actually [00:27:00] EPR architects where I work, they were pretty good anyways.

Stephen Drew: They were really good at it, but what I would say having worked in recruitment now for seven years is that there is a massive push and the impetus and importance with equality, diversity, and actually culture and practices. Cause I do think that architectural practices will A slow adapter in certain ways, there are examples of good employers, but then you can also get sucked into long hours.

Stephen Drew: You can get sucked into the certain cultures. And I think what's it was being interesting over time. And I saw a fantastic chat by almost like another. Head of change a role at the stride track loan and they talked about it actually making people work less hours keeping the staff engaged what was interesting is then suddenly if by looking after the welfare of the staff there were less sick days there were less people leaving.

Stephen Drew: And then you don't have to pay so much pesky recruiters like me all the time to find [00:28:00] someone else. It gets expensive trying to find someone,

The Shift to a Four-Day Work Week
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Dr Liz Walder: is there a movement, I think it's in Norway, to have a four day week when you work longer hours because people are valuing their free time more?

Stephen Drew: Do you know because, you're running your own architectural practice, so while everyone can't see the video feed right now, I can see that you're in your fantastic office with your whiteboard behind you. But the thing is, a lot of people are not working in at home permanently. People have been what's that doctor, is there anyone, because remember it's audio only, so what am I looking at plans, drawings?

Stephen Drew: So

Dr Liz Walder: this is a building, it's in it's in Neath. And it's it's having a refurb and new entrance and it was a pub, now it's doing takeaway food. And this is the bits that fell off the printer. So I just basically put these together on my whiteboard and then I have them as a backdrop so people think that I can draw.

Dr Liz Walder: You can draw. You're right. Yeah, I can.

Stephen Drew: You're being harsh on yourself.

Dr Liz Walder: I've learned this year. I, I never had learned it before because [00:29:00] drawing wasn't a requisite of anything that I did. But I taught myself AutoCAD. And that was because I work in a collaboration with someone else.

Dr Liz Walder: And that was the program they used. I'm a bit nervous about Revit. That's been referenced a few times. On the architecture social. I'm like,

Stephen Drew: It is really important for people working in practices.

Adapting to Remote Work
---

Stephen Drew: But that's what I was just gonna get at, because you are working at home in an office environment right now, but you talked about a four day week.

Dr Liz Walder: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: And I think not even so much a four day week, there's gonna be a big culture shock soon because let's say hypothetically and everyone has a different viewpoint that coronavirus. We've got the lockdown in March that's hopefully going to be lifted. There's going to be talks about people going back to the office.

Stephen Drew: But what I would say is when the coronavirus landed There was a lot of architectural practices, I'm sure, that felt, holy moly, how are we going to keep going when we can't go into the office? You need to be in an office to make an architectural practice work. And what's interesting is that so many [00:30:00] people have worked at home and they realize that we can do it.

Stephen Drew: So I think the big culture shift isn't to a four day week. I think that a lot of people on the back of this are going to want to work. Two free days in the office, two free days at home. Do you know what I mean? So what I'm

Home Office Transformations
---

Dr Liz Walder: seeing here is that more and more people are looking for home office space. So they're either having an extension built or they're converting a loft into a bedroom and converting that bedroom into a home office.

Dr Liz Walder: All the, there was a big push here in city centers for office space and that's now being defunct and being changed into housing stock, but that's a big problem to change an office building because obviously you don't have the right services. And everything has to be sorted out. And I mean I had a, was on a webinar actually with the engineers structural engineers a couple weeks ago.

Dr Liz Walder: And there was a speaker there who was talking about he had to go back into the office to collect something. And his team of 24 were all happily working at home. And he [00:31:00] went into the office and he was confronted by rows and rows of like desks with big screens and everything. And he looked at this and he was like, Did I used to work here?

Dr Liz Walder: And for him, he said it was just a sort of moment where all of this team is now happily working at home but he's got this office that's sitting there doing nothing. And you do read a lot of offices here not architectural practices, but, just office stock in general,

Dr Liz Walder: they

Dr Liz Walder: are all the people are working from home or when they go in, there's such a reduced staff because of the coronavirus.

Dr Liz Walder: So less people are going in at one time and they've got empty rooms and they're turning those rooms into service.

Stephen Drew: This is it. I think you've hit the nail on the head.

The Future of Office Spaces
---

Stephen Drew: I think the offices of the future, and this is my prediction, could be right, could be wrong. I reckon what we'll see is exactly what you said of the floor plan will be halved or whatever.

Stephen Drew: And you'll have, let's say hypothetically, me and you have an office of a hundred desks. I reckon the office of the future will be 30 to 40 desks and four to five meeting rooms or five to six meeting rooms. And they will [00:32:00] be,

Dr Liz Walder: so you waive And you go in, you don't touch anything. Fabrics will be antibacterial, self cleaning bathrooms.

Dr Liz Walder: That's the bit I'm looking forward to the most actually, self cleaning bathrooms. I'm doing this paper at the end of the month, which is about the future of architectural practice post COVID. And a lot of the things. But I've just said I'm in that because I had, I've already done the research for that.

Stephen Drew: That's the AIA. You send me a link to that and we'll put that in this as well. But I reckon you're right and the other interesting bit you mentioned, which is true, and it would be my psychology as well because The idea of let's say now I was looking for a flat. I live in a two bedroom flat in London the moment, but say now, it all went well.

Stephen Drew: I win the lottery or the architecture social gets sponsored by Autodesk or something like that. Let's say now something like wonderful happens and I get a windfall and I'm like, Oh, I'm going to be looking for a house or anything before. It's like you said, it would just be bedrooms and all this stuff.

Stephen Drew: But now it would be [00:33:00] like. What's the, where's the office, where's that going to be? I don't work

Balancing Work and Personal Life
---

Dr Liz Walder: on New Build, but I think that three bedroom houses in New Build will become replaced with two bedroom in a home office. I speak to so many people and they won't turn their camera on because they're sitting at the edge of the kitchen table and their husband's in the third bedroom.

Stephen Drew: I've got it down now. So what you're seeing me now is this used to be my gaming PC, because I'm a bit of a geek, as you learned today with my World of Warcraft in the live stream, right? So this so I'm lucky because 'cause of the power of gaming pieces is so good for streaming all this stuff. Yeah. And especially as an architect, you can run Auto desk and rev it and the auto desk, you, AutoCAD and red.

Stephen Drew: But the other one I've got is the, my laptop in my guest bedroom. I get, I say guess better loosely because until the Coronavirus is over. No one's gonna be there. Yeah, so it's a bedroom, [00:34:00] but I quite like it psychologically, because what I find is, I'm less like, it's, I've got less impetus to work. I have to really force myself if I'm gonna be working on my gaming PC, because it's in my bedroom.

Stephen Drew: But what I quite like in the morning is going to the other room, Dr. Liz, which is the guest bedroom, because I psychologically, It's the room of torture. Work and Right, but, and don't find it's self,

Dr Liz Walder: it, it is a bit like going into your desk in the, the office that you are used to work in.

Dr Liz Walder: You actually have a physical space to go to. And if you have it set up in the right places where things are in the right, or in I, now I, when I was in an office environment, I worked with two screens. But prior to that, I only had a laptop at home and now that I'm working more at home, I've set up, I repainted my office in the last lockdown because I made my, I know I wasn't here when it happened.

Dr Liz Walder: I got my second screen in, I sorted out all my audio equipment, I became aware very [00:35:00] quickly that I was going to work from home more, so I made it be possible to work from home. And I actually have an office in which you can get into, I don't have stuff full of crap on the floor

Stephen Drew: anymore. Wonderful. I sorted

Dr Liz Walder: out all my books.

Dr Liz Walder: all my reference material, everything is to hand. This is like walking into my, if you came into my house and you saw this desk, it would be like it was in the office, the big offices. Exactly the same layout.

Stephen Drew: It's interesting. Because I've worked in an architectural practice and I'm, in terms of what I do here, outside so outside of work, I focus on the architectural social.

Stephen Drew: And my social life, which is the same at the moment, it feels like

Dr Liz Walder: the

Stephen Drew: same, yeah. But then in the day I was, so at McDonnell company, I lead an architecture team and that shrunk a little bit because of COVID, there is just less architectural jobs out there. What's interesting is there's more January, but I manage two people at the moment.

Stephen Drew: Will, who you know the fantastic Will. And [00:36:00] as a really experienced consultant called Steven Glanson. And what's interesting is with recruitment, a lot of it is all communication based anyways. So what I found is that you just do the job at home and what's going to be really interesting is that whole thing of what we're talking about of returning to work.

Stephen Drew: And what I will say quickly, cause I don't want to, I'll keep the focus. I'm more interested in your office. I'm more interested in architecture. I'm more interested in your dog. And we're going to jump onto that next. But before. That what I would say is, I used to spend hours, Dr Liz, in the morning getting ready, an hour to get into work, dolling up myself in the mirror, putting on all my size 34 jeans, and now I I need to diet for a few months, get back in them.

Stephen Drew: But it would take an hour to get there. And so me and Will, we would always work hard. And, I basically clock off at six. I'd normally stay till like half six, seven, sometimes then getting home at eight, my whole day's gone. And what's really interesting now is that I basically work nine to six, sometimes I work till [00:37:00] seven or whatever, but I'm cutting out that two hour commute.

Stephen Drew: And I still think there's a place for the office and leading a team. You do need to go in and you do need to see people face by face. But my question is five days a week. Do you really need to be in the office that much? I've

Dr Liz Walder: been self employed, and now architecture matters is my own business. So you put in the hours that you need.

Dr Liz Walder: I was on site on Monday, went to see a potential new client, and then I've done teaching Tuesday, Wednesday, and then tomorrow a bit of teaching, and a bit of external lecturing, couple of networks tomorrow, and then I'm back on site on Friday, and with my collaborator. So my day, my week changes.

Dr Liz Walder: According to the workload and I think I think you have to be more flexible in this situation. I, before I've been living in Wales for 12, 13 years this year. I originally come from South London and I, when I worked at the RIVA in central London. So

Stephen Drew: you're the reverse of me because I'm Welsh and I live in South London.

Dr Liz Walder: Yes, I'm [00:38:00] from London living in Wales. I, I lived in South London and I used to commute into the RIBA and that was an hour and a half on a good day. And then again, so that's a three hour journey, isn't it? Back to back, round trip when you're to add on to the workload, the workday of work, which is what, six, seven hour day.

Dr Liz Walder: And living here. When the part of the reason that I moved here was because I was promoted by the RIBA to run the RSAW, which is the Royal Society of Architects in Wales. And that is part of the RIBA, but that's what it's called in Wales. And the office was 20 minute walk from where I bought a house.

Stephen Drew: Part of the reason I moved

Dr Liz Walder: here was the job, but also because it meant I could get on the housing ladder.

Stephen Drew: Yeah this is a big thing because the flat that I bought in London I still only own a third of it because it's on a shared ownership scheme, but it was a massive leg up because no other, at the time, you'll appreciate this, I was a part one, right?

Stephen Drew: And I cobbled together enough money. God knows how for for for the, basically the deposit, I think it was [00:39:00] like 15 grand. My parents helped me a whole lot. They helped me with the furniture and everything. So I was skinned, but basically I cobbled together enough money to get to buy a flat, the mortgage of the flat.

Stephen Drew: And at the time, the flat was worth 230, 000, and I could only afford a third, so my mortgage was for 70, 000, right? Now it's worth nearly half a million, because London's just gone through the roof. So I own a third of that, which is great, but to buy the other two thirds, it's just, I don't even want to go for

Dr Liz Walder: it.

Dr Liz Walder: And I can remember I was the only speaker from outside of London and I can remember being asked by somebody like one of the other speakers when we sat down for questions. Q& A about, where did I live? How much did it cost to live there? And I was like I live in a three bedroom, mid terrace property.

Dr Liz Walder: And when I bought it, it was on the market for 139.

Dr Liz Walder: Wow.

Dr Liz Walder: And obviously I got it less than that because I negotiated. But, and this person, I can remember them looking at me like, jaw drop, but I was like that's just how it is. The price is outside of London, but [00:40:00] then, I have everything I need here.

Dr Liz Walder: I have a good community here. I work online. I've got good links, do a bit of teaching now and I can still go back to London. Before COVID, I went back to London, and see friends and family. So I'm 20 minutes from the beach. Yeah, take the dog.

The Role of Pets in Remote Work
---

Stephen Drew: Let's talk about that briefly.

Stephen Drew: Talking about dogs, so I've got my Dexter. And let me just paint a picture, because I think this is an interesting point around the theme. I think we talked about home offices, we talked about a few other things. So I had a fantastic puppy called Dexter, he's now four years old. And I used to run my own recruitment business.

Stephen Drew: And so during that time, so before I moved to McDonnell Company, I ran my own recruitment business. And I used to rent a WeWork. I used to think I was so cool. We were all going around with our Pratt lattes, and then I had my Boston Terrier, for as cool as cucumber. And for one reason or another, I just, I me and my business partner at the time, we were no separate [00:41:00] ways.

Stephen Drew: And so I worked on myself for a little bit and I could work at home like you, and it was really easy with the dog. But then I went to McDonald and the company and they are really good employers, the policy was not. Dogs in the office and fair enough because I think one or two people were allergic, right?

Stephen Drew: And so it had this really awkward scenario where I'm like, I can't fully look after my dog. I love my dog It's not gonna be fair I was like, I'm not going to pay, lock my dog up and pay for someone to pop around for an hour. It's just not the life, but luckily my parents in Wales look after him.

Stephen Drew: Classic thing with my parents, no way, don't want a dog, don't want a dog. And now it's like my dad and mom's best friend, you know what I'm saying? Classic story. And they're really great and they look after him. But I think if you were not working at home. It definitely makes it more challenging as a dog owner, doesn't it?

Stephen Drew: Because then it becomes not fair for the dog sometimes, do you know what think it does,

Dr Liz Walder: because you're not supposed to leave a dog for longer than, I think it's four or five hours on their own. And dogs can't tell the time, but they [00:42:00] can, see when the light goes and the shadows

Dr Liz Walder: come.

Dr Liz Walder: And I think it's not fair really.

Dr Liz Walder: Lutyens, who's my dog, who's named after Edwin Lutyens, the architect he, and he's I've had him four and a half years and he is, has come to work with me wherever possible and when I worked in a couple of small architectural practices and he's come with me and they christened him the head of security because whenever a visitor comes.

Dr Liz Walder: He jumps up,

Dr Liz Walder: Hello, have you come to see me? Have you got a biscuit? Hello!

Dr Liz Walder: We call him like head of security because he's very enthusiastic with visitors. And then when I've worked in a role where I couldn't take a dog to work, I've got up and walked him first and then I've had a dog walker come in at lunchtime.

Dr Liz Walder: And that's, that was good, but it was just a different thing. And I think he didn't, It's not the same as him. He loves it now because, I'm here all the time. My role in live productions is just to take him out. It's not to earn any money, keep him in business.

Stephen Drew: Oh it's sweet. I, as a dog [00:43:00] owner, I think it's a relationship, which is so strong, but and I, but I'm happy as much as I'd love Dexter around.

Stephen Drew: And there's, there's times when you think, Oh, In this lockdown, I could have my dog back, but actually, my dog Dexter, I see him all the time, when I do pop down, I see him, and you can tell the bond's still there, because, like you said, my dog has borderline an epileptic fit when he sees me, and I go, ah, and, there's a part of me that still loves that, but my parents are amazing, and they take him for walks on the beach, like you talked about, Every day, Dexter gets a walk at 10, he's got his routine.

Stephen Drew: My mum lectures me on how to do it. I'm like, Mum, you know I did bring him up for two years before you did. You know what I mean? He survived. He survived.

Dr Liz Walder: Actually, when you're in central London or, inner London where you live, you don't see that many dogs. You see quite a lot of cats.

Dr Liz Walder: And I think it might be because there are parks, but they're perhaps not so widely accessible for dogs. And, if you were in, say, Hyde Park, there's quite a lot of tourists in Hyde Park. Would you feel comfortable letting your dog off the lead there? Perhaps not?

Stephen Drew: [00:44:00] Yeah, it's a good question because I have a park near me.

Stephen Drew: And honestly, the other thing is you couldn't necessarily go to the park all the time. And then you're just taking your dog for a walk around the road. Which isn't as good, and so not just as bad as

Dr Liz Walder: about where he goes to the toilet. He won't go to the toilet on a hard surface. So I have to go to the park, really? Wow. We've got to park half a mile away, and, when I go out, if I take him as much as possible to see people, visits, when I was in a previous architectural practice he had a sight coat made. Oh,

Stephen Drew: that's so sweet. I need to see a picture of them. We need to get, oh, do you know what we should do?

Stephen Drew: Because we did that interesting thread on the social web, where everyone posts their desks, including yourself. We should get one post your pet. That would be really cool. I thought

Dr Liz Walder: that was really interesting, because Tim saw He, he did a series of pictures for, I think it was for the A.

Dr Liz Walder: J. a couple of years ago, probably 10 years ago now and he basically went round [00:45:00] all the big practices and took pictures of their offices and the architects at work. And it was quite an interesting series because you actually got to see behind the front of, say, Foster and Partners or Terry Farrell.

Dr Liz Walder: You got to see people at work and then you see, and then when you see that, you can kind And then when you posted pictures of your desk up and I was like this conference that I'm doing at the month, we, because it's relevant to my paper, which is about the future of architectural practice.

Dr Liz Walder: I have put a picture of my desk in the presentation. So I'm not frightened of showing off my desk. And I thought that was really interesting. It was nice. Maybe, yeah, maybe we should make some kind of e book out of it, or, some online exhibition or something like that. Because we got the material.

The Architecture Social Community
---

Dr Liz Walder: You should make it, because you've got the Architecture Social, and you run it, and it's your cut.

Stephen Drew: Oh, you're really sweet, I want to take less responsibility. Do you know what you appreciate? Just before this, I've got permission as well, [00:46:00] so the background. On the Architectural Socialist by this fantastic guy.

Stephen Drew: Called Joel Wallace, and so he's given me permission that I'm going to do a print of his work. And so what I've got as well is, QR codes, normally I hate them, but I've managed to find a really stylish way to get a stylish QR code so that it'll be a painting. And what I'm going to do with this, have it on the back of the wall of my stream, which would be really nice, but then I'm thinking what I'm doing is like a competition every month for the students.

Stephen Drew: They get their work on in and then it links to the, their architectural social where people can see their whole portfolio. And as well as that, then I'd like to, if I can work it out to give them a percentage of the profits so that they're rewarded for their work, because I think it would be a bit of fun and it's not been done before.

Stephen Drew: But that's what I'm going to work on. If I start doing this ebook, Dr. Liz, I might have a

Dr Liz Walder: the ebook into the lab and work on it in there

Stephen Drew: if you like. Oh yeah, there you go. Oh, [00:47:00] do you know what, you can, do you know what, it's mad. You can I have to let you,

Dr Liz Walder: I use a graphics program for a lot of clients.

Dr Liz Walder: And when I'm putting together work, because I want to present it professionally. And, so I would be putting together something like that, I don't know, in something, in a program, and making it look professional.

Stephen Drew: I think it sounds great. I'm, the architecture social, I like to use the analogy of the fun palace and the precarious exact bit about the fun palace is that it never got built because it was too ambitious, but I like the idea of I loved that was part one of the projects that I really took the heart study in architecture because by Cedric price, isn't it?

Stephen Drew: It was amazing. I thought, I think it's genius, but the fun palace was this idea of, yeah. Basically, it was this concept which they did for this theater production, but it was a framework which would adjust based on the participants and what they do. And I guess what I'm trying to say with the Architects of Socialism, when I set it up, it was originally in this [00:48:00] core idea.

Stephen Drew: to help students, right? But then, organically, over time I'm not a student anymore. Yeah, but I think, what I love is that we're always learning as people, right? And what I quite like is that, it's not just for students, it's for everyone in architecture, and it's for anyone that wants to talk about anything.

Stephen Drew: Because

Dr Liz Walder: you know I sent out some invites, and the first invite who joined was Alan Jones, who's

Stephen Drew: currently the president of the

Dr Liz Walder: RIPA.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I know. That scared me a lot, when he joined. When he joined, this scared me. I felt like a kid. .

Stephen Drew: That's my fault.

Stephen Drew: I felt like some, I felt like someone coming around for a hot date or whatever, and my room was messy.

Stephen Drew: I was like, hi, make it look tidy. Alan's coming. .

Dr Liz Walder: I, he said to him, you need to get in this, you need to join this because it's fun. And this is, what's the fu you know, this is what's happening in architecture. And if you wanna be like, at the forefront of the new wave or looking at new projects or even looking for staff.

Dr Liz Walder: This is where you need to be. And he was like, Oh, that's sweet. So I think that's why he came in.

Stephen Drew: Oh, it's so [00:49:00] sweet. I quite like that. And the other bit that I'm quite proud of is that employers and companies can talk directly to students and vice versa. And I quite like that relationship of them.

Stephen Drew: Showcasing work and also practices talking about what they're looking for and having that dialogue, I think is really good. What I was going to say now, Dr. Liz is, I'm sorry, are you right? I keep calling you dr. Liz.

Dr Liz Walder: I was going to just, before you say this, talking about the Fun Palace, my undergraduate and postgraduate dissertations are about palaces.

Dr Liz Walder: But medieval one, so yeah, so

Stephen Drew: The fun palace is very, it didn't get built, so don't worry. It's not, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans
---

Stephen Drew: What I was going to say was maybe we can pick up another podcast about a particular topic. We talked about books on shelf. We'll do that. I think this has been a really nice intro chat and we're like going around the hour mark, which is a really nice time.

Stephen Drew: Okay. What I would say is. Ask all it is I ask all the questions, but it seems a bit unfair for that. Was there any [00:50:00] questions that you'd

Dr Liz Walder: to ask me? Michael, I have conversation with you and we'll interview you.

Stephen Drew: Oh, no, will works for me. It's gonna just Totally, yeah. Okay. I'm up for it. We can't hide anything.

Stephen Drew: I just oh, I'm in for trouble there. The only

Dr Liz Walder: question I'd just say to you, which was actually raised today in the, and the lunchtime social was about not being so London centric.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, good point. It's hard because I'm in London. I

Dr Liz Walder: know that and I don't forget I worked for the RIVA in London.

Dr Liz Walder: And I've also worked for the RIBA outside of London, and when you're outside, it's easier to understand this London centric thing. And when you're in London, you can't see it. I completely understand. I just, it's just, it would be great to have some things other than in London.

Stephen Drew: That's all. What about my Shanghai building?

Stephen Drew: That was cool. I

Dr Liz Walder: mean, today, I think,

Stephen Drew: I think, yeah, and also the roundabout. Oh, that was, I, that was a little bit tongue in cheek, because I know we're, we have a giggle. But I was going to [00:51:00] say, you're right. Do you know what, though? It raised an interesting point, because one of the challenges is with the social, is that I like that people can do as little or as much as they want, right?

Stephen Drew: If someone's passionate about doing a book club, great, I'll get behind it. But I can't do that because I've never orchestrated a book club and my passion's light and making the framework. And I think the thing is with that, it's like I spoke to Rachel who joined the book club, and Rachel's fantastic because she's American, right?

Stephen Drew: So she literally comes in and we're all Brits and you're the right, you're totally right. And one of the things that led to the book club straight away. And what, and which is fun is I was like, everyone, we've got to be fair to Rachel. We can't bang on about part one and part two, because it's it's not even London centric.

Stephen Drew: Then it's like Reba center or British centric. And architecture is global, isn't it? So you're completely right. But I think what the, what would be helpful with that? It's like yourself, you're a humble reminder of my green grasses, roots of home. But I think. I think [00:52:00] where it will come from, hopefully, is more and more people in the social, from everywhere, bringing their culture, and that's in the criteria when you sign up, I say where are you from, partly because I'm interested, and I'm up for anyone can join the social, the bit, the questions at the start, which kind of dictate if you come in or not, is more there to get a little bit of a glimpse of an understanding, and So if someone, when they signs up, reels off a paragraph about their the tile membranes that they're selling and how they can't wait to tell optics about PVC, you ain't getting in

Stephen Drew: But I don't care if you are on the Mars or you're in London or wherever. I don't care if you're in the Bartlet. I don't care if you are in any university. You are totally welcome. Know, I know

Dr Liz Walder: when I came to Wales. 12, 13 years ago, I was told there wasn't any decent architecture here. And actually, looking at what we've brought through for our RIVA awards and the shortlisted schemes, I know that's not true anymore.

Dr Liz Walder: So there are good projects. Certainly here, I [00:53:00] don't see all the other regions, but and one of the things I, I keep the statistics of the gold medal winners, but I also keep all the statistics of RIVA award entries. Just for reference, really. And so if you said to me, let's look at what was a hit 25 years ago and see how well it's performed, say, in one of your building comparisons with Will, I can easily find you two things that are not in London.

Stephen Drew: I would love it. You're doing a fantastic job of helping us. And that's a nice humble reminder. And go, Steve, get out of your blamming London box. But I've run

Dr Liz Walder: the job too, haven't I? So I, like you, I'm trying to juggle a load of plates.

Stephen Drew: You, you do enough. I just quite like it when, like today, we were talking this, about this briefly on the part, on the live stream.

Stephen Drew: I'm like, yeah, I love that fantastic effort with projecting in Wales, the one. And you're like, no, it's Richard Rodgers. And I'm like, no,

Dr Liz Walder: No. Actually, and that's what you said on the thing. It came up. No, but

Stephen Drew: yeah, do you know what was really interesting though is because I can pull him up, but what was the thing about the broadcast is you get it like 20 seconds [00:54:00] after I say it because of the way it works and therefore it can be discombobulated for me because I'm live, so sometimes I get the wrong end of the stick, but I think it's all good fun. Dr. Liz, you're absolutely fantastic. I really am super thrilled that you're part of the social, and like you said, our day jobs are first and all this stuff, but if we keep in the spirits of good fun, and you can give me a kick up the ass.

Stephen Drew: If more

Dr Liz Walder: people come in, and who are interested in different things, then it will grow, won't it? Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah, exactly, because it's not, no one's got obligations, but bring what you're passionate about, and I think that, that's part of the key. I

Dr Liz Walder: Dungeons and Architects and Dragons to start, because I haven't played Wargaming in years, but I'm quite excited by that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, that's true, we do have a Dungeons and Dragons, and people can join in, and I'm tempted to be I fancy a Warlock.

Dr Liz Walder: Do I actually risk a 16 sided dice?

Stephen Drew: No the chap who's doing it named Ben, he's made it all easy for us. It's going to be [00:55:00] on zoom and we literally rock up and I'm going to try and be as little as annoying as possible with saying stuff like, am I allowed to say this?

Stephen Drew: And I'm going to try and role play, but then also not to derail it too much, do you know what I'm saying? Are

Dr Liz Walder: you gonna know who everybody is when you've got a character, or are are we gonna work out who everybody is?

Stephen Drew: I don't know, I think what he's gonna do is we set the characters, we submit it, and then we'll have profiles and stuff, so then I'm gonna have a backstory of like that's straight.

Stephen Drew: I can't say straight because that's from Lord of the Rings, it'll be something like Grimson's past, do you know what I mean?

Dr Liz Walder: I'm looking forward to it because it's like a new group of community, which is what the architecture socialists, new people like you that I wouldn't, I would never have met you.

Dr Liz Walder: Unless I had fallen into this hole of the Arctic, fallen upon

Stephen Drew: you. The rabbit's hole, the spiral, the downward spiral.

Dr Liz Walder: And it's I think it would be a great thing, a great adventure [00:56:00] really to do it. And then if it works, more people will want to participate. And then eventually it will just run itself, won't it?

Stephen Drew: Sounds good. I'd best be over my best behaviour in that group, not to, not for anyone to block away. No. Because

Dr Liz Walder: after hours we can all have a beer and let our hair down.

Stephen Drew: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Dr. Liz. I will post everything here. It's been an absolute pleasure. And don't hang up just yet, Dr.

Stephen Drew: Liz. I'm gonna press the stop button now. And hopefully we will still be here. And hopefully the files will not be lost. Because otherwise I'm gonna throw myself out of the bridge. And you can put me in your next paper. Thank you very much.