Navigating the Architecture Job Market as an International Student

0040 - A frank chat with Donia Khafaga, discussing the realities of being an International Student and VISA sponsored job seeker within the UK Architecture Job Market
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are in the wide, wonderful world right now. Oop, I best turn, Donia, I best turn off my phone, isn't it? While we're going live, but we're still going to keep it live, just not to record another introduction. I am Stephen Drew from the Architects for Social. Thank you, Donia.

Very patient guys. So Donia Gafraga, it's a pleasure to have you here. How are you? very much. You're right.

Donia Khafaga: I am great. Thank you. How are you?

Stephen Drew: I'm good. You're a very persistent person because they, the laptop wouldn't work. Now the phone's working and we're here, we're alive , so it's a pleasure to speak to you.

So we actually were brought together a little bit through Jason who was on the previous podcast. So Jason is your ment, is your mentor, is that fair? Yes,

Donia Khafaga: he is my mentor. We met on LinkedIn in 2018. .

Stephen Drew: Great. Alright.

Donia Khafaga: Yeah, LinkedIn work in wonders. As usual, ,

Stephen Drew: usual LinkedIn connecting [00:01:00] everyone. Yes. Well, it's a, it's yeah, LinkedIn is quite a powerful tool.

You can also, definitely is also, I think you can also get a bit it's a bit like Facebook, a bit like everything else, right? Sometimes you can, it can get a little bit overwhelming, but hey, it's really good that you have a mentor. So tell me a little bit about yourself. What's your background?

Donia Khafaga: Sure. I am originally Egyptian. I lived in Egypt until I was 18. And I decided to obviously pursue my higher education in the UK. I studied the international baccalaureate. It was like the only way for me to be able to move from, an education in Egypt and go study in the UK.

Done that, got into the university of Manchester. Or as I would say, the Manchester School of Architecture, because it's like a joint course. So yeah, so I got into the Manchester School of Architecture. And yeah, and then afterwards I came back home for a year because basically what happened was I was struggling to get a job just because I'm international, which means I need a visa.

And we all know what that means.

Stephen Drew: It's just hard

Donia Khafaga: work. [00:02:00]

Stephen Drew: It is so hard work. And I'm glad you're having this chat about it because That's what I would say from what I do in recruitment these is going to be quite problematic. And it's, there's a few issues around it. Sometimes companies don't know how to sponsor people.

Maybe they're not in the position to do it, but also. It's it's a bit of a shame as in, I think a lot of the times people almost want to hire you or someone else. It's just, it just, unfortunately it does make the whole process much more difficult, doesn't it?

Donia Khafaga: Yeah, it does. But I think it's also I think it's just the word visa and international that scare people off.

I think because a lot of times if you just look into it, it might not be complicated because yeah Yeah. Cause that's how it goes. Basically, if you're a part one, so after I finished my three years and done my BA, what you can get on is something called a tier five visa. And that kind of visa, it's really, it's honestly the easiest visa to get.

It's like an internship visa. And basically if you're a part one, that [00:03:00] means that you don't need any like minimum salary requirements. You don't need it's just not a hassle. The company doesn't need to like, proper sponsor, you a third party can actually sponsor you. Through your company and it's just, it's not even a hassle because it's basically treated as an internship.

And that's how basically a lot of people view part ones. You still get paid obviously and everything, but it's just like a work experience before you do your master's, isn't it? So you can go on a tier five visa and thing is, it's honestly super easy. All you got to do is get a firm that like, that gives you a position as a part one architectural assistant.

And then what happens after that? You just talk to a third party. The best one is Isaac. They're known for dealing with like immigration visas and international students. What they do is literally, they talk to your firm. I think the firm has to pay something like I don't remember exactly 800 to a thousand pounds for the whole duration of your contract.

And then. The third party literally takes care of everything. It's super easy. Yeah. But a lot of people, I think it's just like misinformation. People just don't know about these things. And [00:04:00] then they just freak out. The moment you say I'm international and I need a visa.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I was giggling there when you said the V word because it's good to have a sense of humor about this.

And I like to laugh as well, but I've also been in on the recruitment side of things. It's been quite frustrating times when, for instance, I meet someone talented and let's say, now we talk, we have your CV and a company's interested in your skillset and abilities I've learned that I have to make it very clear at the start that you have a visa because sometimes you can find that we get very far down the process and then the employer is not too sure whether they can do the visa.

And it's this big misunderstanding, like you said of Tier one, two, three, four, five. I thought, no, it's tier, I always used to get confused between tier two and tier five, but my loose understanding, and I'm no expert, and you know it much more intricate than me. I know in the general sense, but basically tier two is where it gets a lot more tricky for the employer, isn't it?

Donia Khafaga: Yeah. That's where all the disasters happen in the tier two [00:05:00] visa.

Stephen Drew: It makes it, it can make it, it can make it really difficult, isn't it? For the person who has that visa the tier two requirement. And yeah, the requirements are a

Donia Khafaga: joke. I'm not going to lie.

Stephen Drew: It's a bit tough, isn't it? And it's a bit of an unfortunate situation.

And I do think as well, there's a level of misunderstanding with it. And I do think that, and we agree is that, that it's not that employers are being What's the word I'm looking, it's like what you said, I think it's more to do with a lack of understanding. It's less prejudice, it's more just whoa, we're a small company, we can't and we can't sponsor someone.

And actually what you're saying is that the process is a bit, is not the end of the world, is it? It's basically a few hundred pounds, which could even be factored into a salary I'm guessing in one way.

Donia Khafaga: E, that depends. So that was when it comes to the tier five visa. So that's the one that you can get in between your BA and your MA.

So after your master's, you're going to have to go on a tier two visa, which is the proper [00:06:00] working visa. Oh no,

Don't give me a

Stephen Drew: tier two.

Donia Khafaga: It's really hard. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie to anyone. It's proper complicated. Obviously I haven't tried one myself, but my brother has. So he he works, he studied basically at the university of Sussex. He did electronic and electric engineering. And then he did his master's in Southampton.

He done mechatronics. And then for him, there was no tier five option. It was straight away tier two. And he came back to Egypt for a year. And during that year it was the same year I came back as well. And we were both like trying to get jobs, but he obviously had to go straight for the tier two.

And you know what? It's complicated because it doesn't even have to do necessarily with actually you getting a job and a firm that is willing to sponsor you. Even after that, the visa can get rejected. And that's exactly what happened to my brother. The first time you can, yeah, exactly. Because at this point, after, the, after the firm that you applied for, they accept you and they say okay, we're willing to go through the process with you, then there's [00:07:00] the government and the people that deal with the visas on a higher level.

And basically it gets really complicated because with a tier two visa, there's a limit of how many people they can actually give it out to, so they don't just give it out to anyone that looks like they're suitable. For example, they would give it out only to maybe 20, 000 people a year, like the tier two visa.

Yeah, so there's the limit. And then after that, there is a fact that whichever firm is willing to sponsor you, they actually, and this part is funny. They actually have to show and prove that there's no one in the EU region or in the UK that can do that job except for that foreigner that they're going to hire.

Stephen Drew: That's going to be really difficult because there's going to be a lot of people who do it,

Donia Khafaga: right? Exactly. It's very rare that there is a job that only one person can do it. Do you get what I mean? Especially if you're trying to be like a part two architectural assistant, obviously, there's loads of other part twos.

Yep. But everyone deserves a chance. So it's, yeah, it's just really complicated in that sense. And then there is a [00:08:00] salary requirements. So if you're an experienced worker the minimum salary requirement is 30 K. And then usually they would actually prefer, they would give it out more to the people that have the higher salaries.

Stephen Drew: Really? Wow.

Donia Khafaga: Yeah, it's hard work.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, so architecture, you need to pay people more. Basically. Basically,

Donia Khafaga: end of the conclusion.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Wow, that's quite interesting. So let's it's really good to talk about the process, but just to wind it back as well, so you basically, you did Your equivalent of part one in Egypt.

Is that right?

Donia Khafaga: Oh no. I did it. So I actually worked, I managed to get myself a tier five visa with the help of yeah. So basically what happened was, sorry, I got sidetracked. I forgot that I was talking about myself and just went straight into the visa. It's a good sidetrack, it's

Stephen Drew: a very useful sidetrack, very good sidetrack.

Donia Khafaga: Okay, good. But but yeah, so I came back home, back to Egypt for a year. When I was struggling to get a job. And then I, that's when I managed to connect with Jason on [00:09:00] LinkedIn. So I I don't even remember how the conversation started, but we just linked, connected on LinkedIn. And then I introduced myself.

I was like, oh, hi, I'm this and that. I did my BA in architecture and Jason straight away was like he's, he, Jason started in Egypt as well. He did like a semester. For something like a while ago in Egypt or, when I said I'm Egyptian and I live in Egypt, obviously like the conversation got interesting as well.

Cause he loves Egypt and then, yeah, from there he was like, okay, let me see your work. So I sent him a portfolio. I sent him my CV and then Jason was like, okay, I'm willing to help you. And that's how he became my mentor. We obviously had conversations and then he was just basically helping me as in suggesting me to people.

So I can actually get recognized because obviously it's hard to get recognition when you're international. So he was just suggesting me to others, obviously other than being my mentor and like actually guiding me through the steps and everything, he helped me in the sense of suggesting me to others.

Stephen Drew: It's very interesting and it's very helpful. And I do think what goes around comes around and I [00:10:00] know I do think the role of having a mentor is quite important. So that you, you reached today since 2018, that was after you studied at the Manchester school of architecture. All that was part one.

Is that right?

Donia Khafaga: Yeah. So that was my part one. And then I got a job at K2 architects. So that's in Liverpool.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. Amazing. And

Donia Khafaga: I've done my two years as a part one there, and I just got back to Egypt two months ago.

Stephen Drew: Ah, amazing. So are you calling from Egypt right now?

Donia Khafaga: Yes, I am currently in Egypt. Oh,

Stephen Drew: that's why the line keeps going a bit, huh?

We're halfway around the world. Basically.

Donia Khafaga: That's

Stephen Drew: amazing. The reason I keep bringing up Manchester is because I studied there. So I, so we're both MS Alumini? Yes. . So hello. So just, yeah. MSA out there. I quite love the MSA. Yeah. Now I did my part two there, which at the time was with Richard Brooke.

Nick. Dan. And you had Vic Kal, I think. Ra, [00:11:00] yeah,

Donia Khafaga: Yeah. Vic? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah. I remember. I remember all these people. .

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Vic, if you ever listening to this Vic remember I did all the lighting? for you. And hospitality, I didn't get paid for that. You only give me food vouchers. I'm coming for you, Mick.

I'm going to have to send him a link to this podcast and say, you made a very special entry. I had really good experience with, he was a really good to I quite liked it because he's quite. He was very supportive in unconventional ways, and I teased, although it would've been nice to get paid a few pounds for it, , but I got the experience he gimme experience that I would never get in life otherwise.

So Vic, I'm only joking. I'm very grateful. Please don't un add me on LinkedIn. Huh guys, I love the MSA. That was really cool uni. It was really cool. Yeah. Yeah. I went to the university of Westminster and I learned a lot. And just in case they listen guys, I'm not saying it's bad, but I really learned a lot [00:12:00] in Manchester because they encourage you.

My perception is to become your own kind of architect, your own kind of style. And I thought it was less of. A copy of a copy, whereas I think when I was in Westminster, I was a little bit more seduced by the style of the tutors and I followed that. I had a really good experience in Manchester.

Did you have a good time? Yeah,

Donia Khafaga: I had a great time. I had a great time. It was my first time. Like when I first came to the University of Manchester, it was my first time in the UK as well. I've never been to the UK before that. So it was a great three years. I really enjoyed it.

The city itself, the university, everything was great. It was pretty good. It was hard. It was hard work, but it was really good.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. It might've been hard work and well done on the visas and stuff, you had a nice shiny campus. I was in the old one. Were you in the new building?

Donia Khafaga: Yeah. The Bensley building. Yeah. You

Stephen Drew: had it easy. I was in the shed while they were doing it up. And it was fun, but it was a bit like camping, when people say ah, it'll be fun. And you're like. [00:13:00] I don't know if I enjoyed that. I did and I didn't. It was character building. No, I get you. I still had a really good time there.

And there was some perks for it. But I am jealous of your campus. So you did that and then was it a struggle after doing your part one? Basically, initially getting a job in the UK?

Donia Khafaga: Yeah, it was a struggle, like it took me a year. . Of I came back, so I graduated 2017, like I spent I started working at K two in August 2018.

Yeah. It was a struggle. Like I, I even remember like when I first, so obviously after I graduated in July, I had I was in the UK until September and I went on a few interviews and I even remember, I'm not gonna mention like any names, but I even remember this one time I went on an interview. It actually went well and then at the end.

Throughout the whole interview, I don't think they had an idea, like any idea that I needed a visa. I didn't mention it, but yeah, so you got to

Stephen Drew: the end and he was like what?

Donia Khafaga: [00:14:00] Yeah. I did the stupid

Stephen Drew: mistake.

Donia Khafaga: Honestly, I did the stupid mistake of assuming that just because of my name and my accent, they would get the feel on their own.

That I probably might need a visa, but then

Stephen Drew: it

Donia Khafaga: was a horrible assumption.

Stephen Drew: That's so funny because it's like, Oh, look, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I will remain within the EU. I feel like the UK is full of talented multicultural people. And look, some of the best architects that I've worked with in terms of recruitment, honestly, I'd Working with companies really famous companies.

And a lot of the architects that I had on contract there and introduce some Pimma was with people from America, and that's a different thing or Germany in particular. Some amazing Spanish architect. So come on, but you hit the nail on the head. And this [00:15:00] is one of the lessons I always say, cause I'm on the actually use social, I've done a few CV and portfolio reviews.

I'm going to try and do a few more, but one of the things I always like to do is talk about is that in your CV and portfolio, if you do need a visa, it's all, it is always good to mention it at the start and that's just almost save you time or what I find is that. Part of what I liked about what you're saying is you almost have to educate the company while you're doing it, and it was like, I spoke to a really talented, bright, young I wasn't being ageist, sorry, you can be, bright and talented at any age architectural apprentice.

And basically she had to educate the company how to go about it. The apprentice scheme, and I think it's a little bit like that with the visa, when you say it's look Mr. Director of the architectural practice or Mrs. Look, you, so we have to do is say a hundred pounds and look, I'll even factor that in, or I'll make it easy as possible.

I will do all the admin. And I think if you do that to people, then they're more likely [00:16:00] to be open to it. Yeah, but that's if you get

Donia Khafaga: the chance though, to actually get to that point where you can explain to them the process of the

Stephen Drew: visa. Do you imagine this as someone that going we're looking at CVS and going visa, a visa.

And then it's like a practical, you think it's

Donia Khafaga: I literally think that's how it goes. I'm pretty sure every single office, they have a stack of CVS that said, see if like visas on them. That there's just no, not going to look at that.

Stephen Drew: Basically.

Donia Khafaga: Straight in there,

Stephen Drew: it's good to have a sense of humor.

I don't think it's quite like that, but I do agree with you. Sorry. It's not quite as in the things are going straight in the bed. I think, but we joke around, but there is a truth that I think it is a lot tougher. In your position and you know what I'm going to be really up front is even talking about this subject, right?

So working on my, one of the things that I wanted [00:17:00] to do when set up the Arctic Social on the podcast is I was like, I need to do an episode or a series about being an international. architect or student. And everyone that I spoke to about the idea was like, what are you going to talk about visas and how complicated it is?

And because they were like oh no. And I'm like it's a really important subject to talk about. But I agree with you this it's like. There's like this it's almost like people, I think are nervous about talking about it because it might come across we're saying that people are prejudiced or raised, and we're not saying any of that, right?

Yeah no, none of

Donia Khafaga: that, none of that. We're not,

Stephen Drew: we're just saying how complicated the process is. But what is funny is the moment we start going into a subject like this, everyone has a freak out, right? And they're like, Oh no, let's best not do that. And I think we have to talk about these things and we have to acknowledge that actually it is really difficult for very good designers and architects like yourself to work [00:18:00] in the country.

And even now we're going to be, let's be all realistic here. We're going, and look, I'm, I don't like to go on about coronavirus and dollar truck kicking up and we're all gonna, we're all gonna have a nervous breakdown, but we have to be upfront with the fact that we are entering we could the EU.

Yeah. So it's not even just it's not even, like the Middle East or Asia or America. It's nah, anyone that's not from the UK, you're going to need a visa if you're like which I think is insane. But Hey, so it's gonna, I think the point is what you're saying. So you first hand, and this is not an opinion piece or anything you first hand, it's it was difficult.

Donia Khafaga: It was difficult. It's just one of those if you really want it, you're just going to have to keep trying because it's out of like a hundred people that you're going to talk to only very little will be willing to listen. Because when I first got here, I was like literally calling firms, like from Egypt.

I wasn't even at this [00:19:00] point I give up on sending emails and sending my CV.

Stephen Drew: Cause I was like, I was

Donia Khafaga: like, it's not going to work like that.

Stephen Drew: And there's a few things you got to do, isn't it? Like I encourage a British number, you need that. That British mobile number, which people will be like, Oh my gosh, and yeah, it's very difficult.

Isn't it? So maybe tell me, so you, you already mentioned that you really enjoyed working with K2, right? And you've done an amazing two years and that, and before that. I love that. You are you a part of the Rebus student mentoring scheme at Kalson RTKL? I actually spoke to a project manager from Kalson RTKL and she so she will be on another podcast as well.

And it's yeah. And so my impression is that they were a really good company. So what was it like with Kalson RTKL? No, it was really

Donia Khafaga: good. Yeah. Oh, and

Stephen Drew: you were at Simpson Huff as well. Oh, you've got loads of experience. You haven't yet.

Donia Khafaga: Yeah, it's basically what happened was my RDA mentor was originally at Simpson Huff and then he moved to Callinson [00:20:00]

Stephen Drew: and I just went

Donia Khafaga: with him.

Stephen Drew: You were like part of the Oh I was going to say baggage then, but that's detrimental, isn't it? You were definitely not baggage. No. You're like. Steven, I am never coming on this podcast again.

Donia Khafaga: No, it's okay. It's fine.

Stephen Drew: I gotta put down the fog horn.

I'm getting a bit too, I'm getting, what's the word? I'm getting drunk with power over here.

Donia Khafaga: It's okay. Don't we all at some point.

Stephen Drew: Oh, you've got to have a laugh. All so you went to Simpson half, then you went to Cullison RTKL, and then you did a little bit of work in sales, just, just sipping by, cause I'm looking at your experience here and then you're at K2, so how did it go with.

All of these employers with regards to the visas then and how the whole process went with your CV portfolio. Was it similar for all? We're all open minded. I guess that must be right.

Donia Khafaga: You mean when I got to K2 or before when I was trying to apply?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, both or whatever you want to talk about

Donia Khafaga: first, to be fair, when I was trying to, when I was trying to [00:21:00] apply, like very little actually, gave me the chance to send my CV because a lot of people, as I said, when you, yeah, I did call a few firms and the moment I say I'm international, they say, oh, sorry, we don't sponsor internationals.

So it's just, it's one of those. And obviously when they say that I'm not really going to be like, Oh, no, wait, give me a chance. It's one of those you already know, they're not really willing to look into it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah,

Donia Khafaga: exactly. I'm not. And at this point as well it was when I first actually got to, at the beginning, I thought I had to get tier two.

But then that's when I was like, Oh, I can actually get a tier five. So even then it was still tricky because I think a lot of firms, they, I don't blame the way they look at it because at the end of the day it's like, why would you go through the hassle? Even if it's not that much of a hassle when you can just, especially with part ones, because part ones at the end of the day, like we're not, we do play an important role in firms, but they wouldn't really go out of their way.

for part ones, if that makes sense.

Stephen Drew: Yeah it's difficult. It's a phony subject and that's why I joked around earlier [00:22:00] that people don't want to discuss it because it's one of these things of, look, there's a reason they hired you or they saw something in your design or saw something in you as a person.

And I do believe. All jokes aside, every architect or everyone like that, everyone's got their own unique voice. They've all got their unique design or that, and that's what these employers saw in you. But I agree with what you're saying. It's very difficult on paper or from when you were saying from the tier two standpoint, that someone who doesn't know architecture, they're like so this is an architectural assistant role, so couldn't anyone from the UK do it, but it's a bit more complicated like that. Isn't it? It's about a company when they're interviewing you, they're looking at your style, they're looking at what you've done, your skill set, your personality, and they're looking if you can fit in the team.

And the point was, is that you did manage to get those interviews. You did persevere and then K2 saw something in you. I would imagine. So that's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, no, I was

Donia Khafaga: really grateful. Honestly, I was, cause I at this point I was still trying, but I was like, okay, maybe not. [00:23:00] Yeah, it is.

It is. But yeah, I think I just had nothing to lose. When you reach that point where, I was in Egypt either ways, I was like, I'll just keep trying because I got nothing to lose. I wasn't going out of my way. I was just making phone calls and trying to like network with people, connect, which was obviously so tricky because I was in a whole other continent trying to do that.

But but yeah, I think I just, I had nothing to lose. And I also did really want it like really badly. So I was just like, I'm just stick with it, whatever happens. But yeah, like deep down inside, I was a bit like, I was starting to lose my optimism.

Stephen Drew: Yeah that's natural. I've been in that situation as well.

And I think I do like your analogy there when you said you felt like there was nothing left to lose, then there's almost the, that's like the ultimate motivator in one way. Because. You may as well email the people. You may as well follow up. You may as well call someone because there is nothing to lose.

And I think that that's really good advice. And it could apply to [00:24:00] a lot of people in a different way. Maybe it was obviously, it must be quite a really off. I, my heart does go out to people who I've got a. Tier two or tier five visa in the coronavirus right now, because it's like another barrier, isn't it?

Because I think what practices are doing is everyone's trying to keep a flow, trying to look at a, they're trying to look after their current staff anyways. And recruitment is generally down. There is still jobs out there. There is always jobs. And you've got to have that attitude that you were just saying.

Now, if you've got to be like. You've got to be on it. And my opinion is, you tell me what you think it is. I'm still amazed that I speak to people and they sent one or two CVs out in a day. Or I find that some really talented architects are part twos who they will wait for jobs online and our job postings.

And I think that if you're hanging around waiting for someone to put a job up on Dezeen you're never gonna, the chances are so slim. You've got to, you've got to, [00:25:00] you've got to apply to companies, which Don't even post the job half the time. You've just got to you've got to showcase your work, isn't it?

And try to get people to buy into who you are. Because I mean, how many applications did you send? There must have been quite a lot, right?

Donia Khafaga: Yeah, I did. But as you said I rarely, to be fair, looked at like advertisement for jobs and stuff like that. I was literally going on like websites and whether they had vacancies or not, I would still make a call and like email the HR or whatever I can do.

Just because, again, a lot of firms, I don't know why, but from what I understood, a lot of firms, they don't really advertise in that sense. They don't really go on the zine or they don't really put it on their website, but they might be looking, but a lot of the way they do it is, I don't know, either like someone knows someone or just like people that would.

They spread the word out differently. I don't know, but yeah you're a hundred percent correct. You can't rely on the zine or whatever it is for job advertising. You have to literally just, if you're interested in a certain firm or if you generally looking, you've got to do it another way.

You've got to go on the website. You just got to send your [00:26:00] stuff, whether they look at it or not.

Stephen Drew: This is it. And that's. That's really good advice because I'm amazed that I think that should everything go wrong in recruitment. And look, I really enjoy it. Maybe there's a career for me in terms of just, I'm going to be like that annoying and then Jim coach or whatever that says, send the CV out, send the CV out.

Come on, you can do it. One more, one more, one more. But I do think, and I will listen to a lot of people at the moment that anyone waiting on the job boards, you have to wake up a bit. You really need to wake up because it's competitive. And what I like about your story is you've got there in the ends. And I think that's brilliant to talk about K2, but I'm, I really enjoy talking about this search as well, because the pursuit of finding a job, especially when you've got one or two barriers to entry and into a job.

Currently in the UK and the fact that you did it is impressive. And would you say a most of it, obviously [00:27:00] it's down to you and your work and they saw something that a lot of it was. Surely persistence and

Donia Khafaga: just

Stephen Drew: going for it.

Donia Khafaga: Yeah. Networking. Jason was a great help because obviously, yeah, I got this based on my work and everything, but when you network with people and then they see something in you, they're willing to help you out because they saw something in you.

And then they'll just they'll talk to others and be like, Oh, I have a great person, look at their CV. You know what I mean? Like it's, and you don't have to. Do it face to face. This is, I think this is also another subject to talk about. I don't know, maybe not now, but LinkedIn, like I know people on LinkedIn, they literally wouldn't even accept requests from people that they don't know.

And I'm like, it's not Facebook, it's LinkedIn. It's your network. The main point is networking with people that you don't know. What's the point of just having on LinkedIn people that, it's not, I don't think it works like this, all the interesting people that I meet off LinkedIn. I've never like some of them, I didn't see them before.

And I just talked to them cause that's what LinkedIn is [00:28:00] for, so just making networking and making connections on LinkedIn is really important because, and I see a lot of people who do great things as well. Like I've seen the posts a few days ago on LinkedIn, someone was like, I worked here, I did this and did that.

I'm currently looking for a job in the sector and people literally, they don't even wait for firms to advertise. They just advertise themselves, and I think that's a great strategy as well.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's completely, it's a very good strategy. I think LinkedIn is a tool and it's a really good tool.

It just comes down to, as you said, the individual to use it. And so part of what I do in terms of my job is that. A lot of the connections that I make through LinkedIn as well. And we originally spoke through LinkedIn. Yeah. We never met before this, haven't we? It was like a blind date podcast thing, wasn't it?

I was like, oh, okay. But I was quite excited and open to it. And you were open to it. You are like, yeah, I'm up for it. And we had, we were having a nice discussion now, but that is through LinkedIn. Hundred percent. But I think with LinkedIn [00:29:00] it's a bit like. I imagine that going to a city for the new, and when I moved to London, when I was from Wales, you go into the city and you think as London is full of opportunity, brilliant. And it is, what you've got to do is you've got to you've got to go out there and get it. And it's the same thing with LinkedIn. Write a custom message to someone. You have to take interest. You have to have something to say, and not don't just like a post, try to add the conversation.

That's my advice. It's just to get stuff going and build these networks and build these connections. So tell me a bit. So you were at K2 for a while and now you've gone back to Egypt. What's the plan then? Are you just leaving before? The Brexit madness, and you've probably done the right thing, I should join you.

Donia Khafaga: You know what there is a lot of things to talk about right now, because obviously there is Corona. At this point, let's face it in general, not just in architecture, people that are from the UK are losing their jobs. So the [00:30:00] probability of an international student with a visa getting hired right now is just being realistic, like not being pessimistic about it, but it just, it's obvious that it's hard right now.

It's even harder than it already is to actually get someone to sponsor your visa because every single firm is like struggling right now. It's, it's tricky. And a lot of people are working from home. What's the point of sponsoring someone so they can come to the UK and then work from home?

So it's tricky.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. It's interesting that I was speaking to someone about this today, because I always feel like the architects an architectural practice especially was under the impression of, Hey, we can't work at home, right? No way you need to be in the office in an architectural practice and architectural practices and work people at home and working from home.

And actually that due to the one upside of this Corona virus, if there is anything to take away from this awful situation is that we've all learned that we can work from home. We can adapt. Yeah. And I think that so companies are now much more open to working remote, but provided that you can go to the office [00:31:00] a little bit.

Exactly. And that's the, so there is still that barrier that unfortunately, while we're even progressing, it is gonna be trickier for and a practice in the UK to hire you if you're not based in the uk. Exactly. Yeah.

Donia Khafaga: Yeah.

Yeah, I think a part of it as well is, I'm not gonna lie, like personally speaking.

I have a lot of personal reasons as well of why I came back other than the fact that my visa expired. That's like the obvious reason. Other than that, I had like other reasons. I enjoyed honestly every single, experience I had ever since I moved to the UK from 2014. However, one thing I noticed is, and I think a lot of people, if there are international students listening to this right now, they'll probably relate.

At the end of the day, honestly, it's stressful.

Stephen Drew: Imagine a visa while working on all this stuff.

Donia Khafaga: Everything is just and the constant worry of, Oh my God, what am I going to do next? What am I going to do next? It's hard to enjoy. The moment. So say, for example, you're [00:32:00] like, I remember my last year, for example, at uni, I was stressed out all the time.

I was like, okay, how, because I knew how hard it was going to be to try to get a job. And, the same thing, for example, like when I was working as well. Oh, what am I going to do next? That constant struggle. What am I going to do next? Because you know that no matter how good you are or whatever it is, it's not, at this point, it's not necessarily about how good you are.

It's how complicated the situation is. You just reach that point where it's stressful.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. It's hard. I can sympathize because part of recruitment is that I speak to a lot of people and moment of ease that comes on board, I've got to be really upfront about this. It's not okay. My heart sinks.

So it's not like I've got a trap door. Like I'm speaking to you now and then they have any of the visa. I eject and I'm like, bye. It's not like that. But what I do generally think is the moment I get that, I go, okay, all right. We've got obstacles and that it does. It's true that it can diminish chances.

And the other [00:33:00] thing that I think is important for anyone listening is because I'm a recruitment consultant. Okay. So what we've recruitment, what you're generally doing is you're hired. to, by the client to find someone. And normally, not exclusively. And they have been open to visas in the past, but what you will find is that if I'm typically going out to find someone, if there's a visa attached to the circumstance, it can mean that there is, it makes the whole situation trickier.

And unfortunately, what you find a lot is that And this is what I was talking about before is that it's always hard to get advice from recruitment consultants, but it's not out of malice. It's because we're always up against the clock. That's the truth of it. And the reality is that if we don't find the right person, we're not paid.

And therefore bizarrely, it's what it's one of the industry where I think that's. Certain people's impressions are that we're all reloaded in [00:34:00] money and rolling around and I'm giggling, but Hey, it does pay well. And, but then it's in scenarios like this is that local recruitment is massively affected and.

What it is that when you were saying about stressful and not knowing that what's next? I even, I get a little bit of that in recruitment, as in Yeah. You constantly have to learn. You constantly have to go through it. But where I was bringing all this point is that I do speak to people with visas and it can be very difficult.

So this podcast can be amazing because I love people to listen to it so that they, yeah, they're, they. They feel like it's not just them. It's just difficult for anyone with a visa and it's a tough battle. It's a real, and you have to view it as it's going to be really hard. You've got to go for it.

And you almost have to go a hundred percent more than anyone.

Donia Khafaga: That's the toughest part. You've got to go beyond you just really got to prove yourself, even though you don't really have to, because. [00:35:00] You got your word that speaks for you, you've got your experience and everything, but you just got to go out of your way to prove yourself.

And this is where it gets really stressful as well.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And this is where, and this is the point I was saying is that I am, I wouldn't, in terms of when you got a visa, you've almost got to. Make it super easy for the employer. You've got to educate them. Like you said, you've got to make them aware of the situation and how to go about it.

And then, and that's why I think that typically, not exclusively, but probably the recruitment consultant is not the best person to help you on that front. I imagine. Yeah. Did you find much success with recruitment consultants?

Donia Khafaga: No I was going to say I did try to go that way when I was in Egypt.

Obviously I was calling firms and stuff, but while I was on LinkedIn, I was trying to like, talk to, obviously consultants, like recruitment consultants, cause I was like, okay, yeah, they might help. Either got one of the two responses. It's, straight away when I say I need a visa. They just go Oh, sorry.

Yeah. Can't really do the whole visa thing. You know what, which I appreciate because at least I [00:36:00] got a response. But what I really think is funny is when you actually have a conversation with a recruitment consultant and then you actually have it should be like, you exchanged two or three messages.

And then the moment you say you need a visa, they just stop replying. I think

Stephen Drew: that's funny. Yeah. It's difficult. It's, there's this balance and I'm going to be really human about this, even today for instance, now I've got one or two roles on in recruitment do and hope this is probably going to go out next week, but basically if anyone listening in the future, we're smack bang in the middle of the pandemic.

What it means is I posted one or two jobs and the amount of interest I get is it's great because on one hand, you've got loads of talented people, but where it's really difficult is you've got loads of talented people trying to call you. And I forget messages every now and then, because maybe I'm getting old in my 30, 33 now, because the only downside with all these tools is I'll get the message on link.

And then I'll get a message on my phone and then they [00:37:00] vote to my mobile and then I've got my outlook and then I forget someone and then they go yeah, I'm contact me for a day. I'm like, Oh no, that's not, yeah, there's no defense for, there's a balance. I do try. I've, what I've learned now is that when I don't reply to someone, I finally get caught up.

That might just go, do you know what? I'm sorry. I made a mistake and that would have been nice. And that's your point, isn't it? If someone says sorry, I, but I can't help or sorry, I ignored you or sorry. I missed this. But when I speak to people, I almost used to giggle nervously. I was like, look, I'm going to be really upfront.

You're in for a tough battle. At

Donia Khafaga: least you're saying something. I think that's where if you can't help someone just to say, just so the person doesn't like keep. Cause you get your hopes up thinking, Oh my God, that person might help me. But then originally they won't.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I'm beginning to learn because I think when I first did the recruitment or, and this is like a life lesson or I did it in architecture as well. You almost feel like sometimes giving people bad news or giving people your [00:38:00] opinion is bad, detrimental. It's a bit like, like the analogy of saying in a relationship and your partner, he, she, whatever.

Cause do I look good in this? And you're like yeah, or, and you're just like, did it taste good? And you're like, yeah, great. Love it. It was great. Okay. There's an element that I, especially when I started in recruitment, you do not want to hurt people's feelings. And what I've learned now is that the, but before what I'm getting at is sometimes people think, Oh, if I say nothing, it's better.

No, it's actually talking is better. And having an open conversation about the fact that there is no roles or. It's very difficult for someone with a visa to find a job or that are for recruitment is unlikely. Having that conversation, saying that it's difficult, like it's even difficult for me to do it now and broadcast it to the whole industry to judge me and I have to be really careful what I say, because I'm like, I love interest.[00:39:00]

But what we're trying to say, it is really tough. And what I've learned is that you have to be open and honest. And it was even today, actually, I spoke to someone and I had to be really upfront and say, do you know what I just feel like. Your CV didn't jump out enough. And I think we need to go back because I'm not going to lie or ignore you.

I was like, I think we need to, you need to either recalibrate it for the role, or you're probably not right for the role. Because this role is a very BIM centric, a very Revit role. And the CV just didn't resonate to me in that way. And. What I'm saying here is not that the person can't do it, or I'm on about in this world of first impressions or getting the information right, you've really got to hit home the chords and your expertise, you've really got to hit home your strengths and you've got to I, I always use the analogy that we're in this swipe to the left, swipe to the right culture.

And, when you were saying before, you've got to get enough there that someone goes, Oh, wow, I [00:40:00] think that there is something of interest here that I, you know what the visa is not going to be easy, but I see something in Tanya's work. I see something, and if you don't do that, if you don't.

It's like that. You've got the one chance, isn't it? Yeah. What's that Shikoni song? It's one moment, one chance, one life, one thing. I

Donia Khafaga: don't know that song.

Stephen Drew: Oh no, maybe I've even made up a song.

Donia Khafaga: It's okay, it's gonna, it's, yeah. It's okay, it's one of those you can jump into it later. I have become a singer.

Stephen Drew: No way. Not a career for me. I will break windows. Destructive. Wow. Wow. I know. Yeah. Look, the phone quality is pretty good, even though the distance is far. I don't believe you, but Hey, look brilliant. I, no one's here to talk about my singing. I've [00:41:00] really, I'm losing the plot. I guess it's because it's late in the evening.

We're doing this, isn't it? To bring it back now. Yeah. It's going to be tough for anyone in this search, so what can we sit down yet? So you're currently in Egypt, you're not currently in the UK, but you had your own personal reasons. You're going to go back. I would love to know the next step for you.

Although I think you've gone a little bit quiet, so the sound might have cut out. Yeah, I didn't

Donia Khafaga: hear.

Stephen Drew: Sometimes it just goes quiet for 10 seconds. Yeah, I was like,

Donia Khafaga: what happened? I was like, are you there?

Stephen Drew: Oh, did I go as well? Yeah, the last thing I

Donia Khafaga: heard was Donya, and then it just went quiet.

Stephen Drew: Oh good, I filled in the, see I'm a professional, we'll work this out, no one will notice the difference.

Okay,

Donia Khafaga: all good.

Stephen Drew: That's no don't worry I'm going to keep all this in, we're going to keep all this madness in. And so what I was asking is, what is the, do you know what your plan is, [00:42:00] your next steps, have you thought about them, what you want to do?

Donia Khafaga: I've been back now for two months. I've been, I took some time off, needed that.

And then right now I have a lot of things running in my mind. The first one is I don't, I'm not planning on doing my masters. I'm not going to lie. I just,

Stephen Drew: yeah.

Donia Khafaga: There's another, that's another subject, but tuition fees for international students are a joke. I'm not even going to go there. Very,

Stephen Drew: very expensive.

Yeah, very

Donia Khafaga: expensive. And yeah, I'm, I can't, I'm not, I can't do my masters. Like we don't get funds, we don't get anything. It's going to be ridiculously expensive. I think at this point. I'm trying to explore my options. So what I thought I'm going to do is I'm trying to get into real estate just to get an exposure of the market.

And and, just see where things go. But I have an issue like over here in Egypt, that's pretty tricky with architecture and, the salaries are a joke. So at this point, I'm trying to, put myself into something that, will help me understand how things are working, but will also get me money.

If I'm being truthful, [00:43:00]

Stephen Drew: well, everyone needs, unfortunately, I know money is not everything, but unfortunately in life, yeah, it does help, especially when you're, building yourself up in life, you need to say all this stuff. That's amazing. Look, good for you. Real estate property, I think is, it can be a really nice avenue, especially from architecture as well.

I think that's amazing. So I want to hear how you get on with that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to keep me up to date. And so for anyone listening. If they've got any questions or if they are interested or wanna say hello. Maybe they're in Egypt, they want to network. Yeah. So you carry, you are on LinkedIn?

I am on LinkedIn,

Donia Khafaga: yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: And are you in the architecture, social? Are you are? No, I'm

Donia Khafaga: not, but I'm gonna join now. You're not.

Stephen Drew: Forget anything because I'm open to that.

Donia Khafaga: I'm amazed

Stephen Drew: how you snuck in on my podcast when you're not in the,

Donia Khafaga: sorry, I promise.

Stephen Drew: Hey, Jason. [00:44:00] Oh my God. Am I getting

Donia Khafaga: arrested now?

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I do not discriminate against Visa or anything, but you're not part of my community, so get up the air.

Donia Khafaga: Okay.

Stephen Drew: Oh, I need to send you an I need. Yeah, no, it's alright. I'll send you an invite. I'll send you, because we gonna post your podcast there as well. Yeah. I think you've enjoyed the community.

No there's actually a pin manager from. In Egypt, we'll post in the building you worked at and this, yeah, must be a fancy building because you had a view of the pyramids. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Donia Khafaga: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We do have some nice buildings. We do have some nice buildings. I'm going to give that to Egypt.

Stephen Drew: It's just big, isn't it? It's a big country is what you mean, isn't it? And it's always.

Donia Khafaga: It's massive. It's overpopulated as well.

Stephen Drew: Really? I've never been.

Donia Khafaga: Cairo.

Stephen Drew: Really? My parents went, they loved it, but it's definitely an experience if you've never been there before. A hundred

Donia Khafaga: percent.

Yeah. And there are so many different things you can see. Cairo is completely different from, where the Red Sea is, where there is Sharm el Sheikh. And then you [00:45:00] have the ancient cities, Luxor and Aswan. Honestly, you can get three different experiences and it just, it's all so different.

It's fascinating though. Like honestly, visiting Egypt, I think. And is everyone who's not from Egypt always recommend coming here just because it's crazy. There's so many good things to see, especially if you're not from here, you will get blown away. You'll love it.

Stephen Drew: Wow. I definitely I want to do it.

I've actually got a flight voucher, so I was gonna go to Japan and my flight got canceled. So if I ever get my flight voucher and if I can ever fly again 'cause of the pandemic, , I will. I will come to, I'll come to Egypt, as

Donia Khafaga: So

Stephen Drew: yeah, amazing. Yeah. I'm just going to get you into the social now

Donia Khafaga: yeah, and yeah, if anyone needs, if anyone needs any help or has any questions regarding the visas, cause I went through the process of the tier five and everything, if anyone's got any questions, I'll be.

More than willing to help because I am really inspired by Jason's mentoring. And it's something [00:46:00] I want to get into as well. Mentoring people. I'm really good with people. And and yeah, so if anyone needs any help, I'll be more than willing to help.

Stephen Drew: Oh, your internet's gone just when you were being super kind and you were inviting people.

So I'm just going to talk a little bit further until your internet gets back. We'll see. I'm sure it'll come back in a second. I got everyone here. If you're not in the architecture social, just while

Donia Khafaga: you're

Stephen Drew: here, you can sign up. You can join our community on www. architecturesocial. com W www com. Hey, there, you're back.

I just, I'm back in my website. Until you came back. Yeah. So you were saying if anyone wants to reach out to you, they can and then Yeah, they can.

Donia Khafaga: Yeah. I'm saying no. I'm very inspired by Jason's mentoring and in the future I'm trying to become a life coach as well slash mentor. I'm not izing myself as a mentor, by the way.

'cause I'm not a mentor , I'm just saying. If anyone needs any help, I'll be more than willing to like. Give them advice or, [00:47:00] talk them through the steps of a tier five visa or whatever it is that they, might need help with that. I can help with it.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. Wow. So generous of you. Thank you so much.

The line goes again. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I'm going to super invite you to the super invite. I'm going to definitely invite you to the social. Thank you very

Donia Khafaga: much for this. You too. Have a great one.