A List of Demands to RIBA from the Future Architects Front.

0057 - A List of Demands to RIBA from the Future Architects Front.
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Introduction and Guest Introduction
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone, I am Stephen Drew from the Architecture Social, and we are live here. It's a Friday, it's the end of the week. We've all had a long week, but relax now and join me with a fantastic guest who I've actually met this week. Now I've met, we can see each other online, but we originally spoke on Instagram.

Stephen Drew: Charlie Edmonds from FAF. I love saying FAF. There we go. We'll get my bell. Bit of FAF. The FAF is the, let's go for it. The Future Architects Front. And as I've seen before this, Charlie, you bulldozed onto Instagram. I was like, what is all this FAF about?

What is FAF?
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Stephen Drew: So do you want to say hello to everyone and tell us about the FAF?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, FAF was, it was one of those things where you, you reverse engineer the [00:01:00] acronym you want in a way. We were looking at a few, and then Faffa was just like, ah, I love it. And then, yeah, it was a bit of a cheeky sort of poke at RIBA, because of course RIBA have their own future architects, and so we were a bit like what if we were to take that and make it ours?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: It was, A little bit of a funny acronym, little bit of a sort of like cheeky taking your own term and using it for ourselves kind of approach.

Stephen Drew: I love it. I think cheeky is definitely a good, is it cinnamon? It's definitely Am I inventing words here? Cinnamon? Cinnamon? Faff, right? Okay.

Stephen Drew: So let's talk about the future architects front. So my first perception was You guys are loud and proud and you've got something to say. So you come on, you were calling me out, you were calling RIBA, you're calling everyone for a conversation, but that's the nice thing because, so what is this for anyone that hasn't seen [00:02:00] what all the faff is about on Instagram.

Stephen Drew: So the Future Architects Front, you have an open letter addressed to RIBA. And do you want to tell everyone about the open letter and what is faff about?

Issues in the Architecture Profession
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Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah, absolutely. Essentially, we are responding to a condition in the architecture profession that I think almost everyone is aware of, almost everyone has experienced to some extent and is like part of the culture in a way and so of course we're talking about things like exploitation in practice where we're talking about abusive work environments and the numerous sort of systemic faults that we see in architecture profession and education at the moment.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: So we were looking at how a lot of these problems have been exacerbated by the pandemic. The thing that really sort of like. I suppose pushed me in to start doing [00:03:00] things was the article the information released by the Architects Union, UVW, SOAR, that found that during the pandemic, a number of practices had, Claimed furlough payments from the government, and then they'd kept their employees working full time despite that.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: They'd been spying on employees through their webcams. Just really cartoon villain levels of Unethical behavior. And that combined with our own sort of experiences of being graduates and students in this current sort of architectural system we have right now, basically led us to this point where we wanted to put together a sort of little body of research that just summed up how a lot of architectural assistants and junior practitioners are feeling right now.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: So we first conducted a survey which received [00:04:00] 166 responses and we looked at questions like, um, have you ever worked unpaid overtime? Which was let's see here, 88 percent have worked unpaid overtime. We looked at do you feel supported by RIBA, 96 percent said no, we don't feel supported by RIBA.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Ooh! And, in addition to the sort of Data Gathering Questions. We also collected individual experiences of practice. So we also got a hundred and twenty Sort of written experiences from Architectural Assistants about things that had happened to them while working and studying architecture.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And all together it painted a very, damning portrait of the current state of things. And so then we decided to write the open letter as a way of, Bringing all of that information and feedback we got in the survey, trying to represent all of those voices in one open letter calling for large scale systemic [00:05:00] change and that sort of took the form of five demands which were to end unpaid overtime in RIBA charted practices, provide effective oversight on the Architectural Assistant role for there to be greater transparency in RIBA's budget and spending decisions to establish a more representative governing body and accountability for exploitative work environments.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: That was a sort of big overview of, the last Two months of work from beginning to now. And now we're at the point where we have over 600 signatures on the letter. It's been rolling along very fast.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And I signed it and at first I remember, 'cause when we were booking in the podcast was like I've gotta write, I've gotta read this, but.

Stephen Drew: I was like, if I don't agree with it, we'll do the podcast. I'm not going to sign it just to sign it. But I do think that actually a lot what's in there is valuable points of view. And the stuff you raise is a factual because these are people that have offered their experiences. I highly doubt [00:06:00] anyone's.

Stephen Drew: Having a giggle answer in your survey as a fake part two. It sounds like people are going to be doing this from a place of experience.

Personal Experiences and Survey Results
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Stephen Drew: And I think that was interesting when I was a part two, I had the EPR architects, they were really good to me. What the thing is though, I did work experience at another architectural practice.

Stephen Drew: Which I'm not going to name, it's not on my LinkedIn profile, and I had the opposite experience of EPR architects who were good employers, and I had a culture of getting work out for a deadline, where I was working long hours, and it was my birthday on a Friday, and when I was leaving at like half six on the Friday or seven the practice owner was like, Can you work tomorrow on the weekend?

Stephen Drew: And I said I'm going out for my birthday tonight, so I probably can't. And he was like it's my birth. It was my wife's birthday. And I was here the other week or two. And he actually said that to me. And I remember thinking, Hey, yeah, [00:07:00] I was like, Hey, this is your architectural practice, not mine, and I'm not married to you, but it was my, it was my birthday.

Stephen Drew: And I remember thinking. Wow. And so I've had the polar opposite. So EPR Architects, AJ 100 company, there was a culture where there was very little. And still is to this day, very little working late and it would happen once in a blue moon and they were generally good about it. Yeah. I remember I worked one day late on the they asked me if I would volunteer to go on the weekend and then they give me, because I did, they give me the Monday off.

Stephen Drew: Do you know what I mean? Because they had a deadline and I felt I was fine because they approached me well in advance. They asked me. Yeah. Yeah. And they done it the right way, whereas this other architectural practice that I went for two weeks work experience, and yeah, and there was another scenario in it when, cause he, the individual was really under pressure with a deadline, and I sympathize for that.

Stephen Drew: But there was one example Charlie? And you think it's interesting. When [00:08:00] I was there, he was looming over my computer screen. So you know how this feels already. Yeah.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Kind of like holding the hand that's moving the mouse. Yeah. And so I was moving

Stephen Drew: on the screen and then whenever I do something that was going wrong, he'd be like, no, what are you doing?

Stephen Drew: And then I was like, petrified what do you do it? Yeah, I felt but of course, I, it was like that thing of I felt privileged to be there, but then I was embarrassed I wasn't doing it right. And it was this weird like scenario. Yeah. So you're right. I've seen two sides of it. What I would say, and this, I would love to get your thoughts on this is, Because I think a lot of practices are doing it the right way, but there's unfortunately companies which How do I say it?

Stephen Drew: Maybe aren't embracing the modern way of doing things and there's that archaic I suffered so you should Gordon Ramsay thrill. Like the cycle of

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: abuse mentality. Yeah

Stephen Drew: I'm trying to make you the best kind of architect you should be, like [00:09:00] Gordon Ramsay. He's yeah. We said, we both swear and Gordon Ramsay's you fucking asshole, you this and that. And then he throws a pan, but people are like.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Putting bread on either side of your head and calling you an idiot sandwich. That kind of thing.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: It's it's almost sounds funny until you realize it's a real person that's in the middle of the idiot sandwich and how hurtful is that.

Stephen Drew: What's your opinion on this?

Addressing RIBA and Systemic Change
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Stephen Drew: So when you wrote this and it was towards RIBA yeah one of the questions I have is I make sense why you're challenging a conversation with RIBA. What's your thoughts about an open letter to architectural practices as well, or did you write this to RIBA to Champion the issue and be on behalf of the architecture industry.

Stephen Drew: What's your thoughts?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah. In a way, yes. The reason that we decided to direct it towards RIBA was because there's a sort of a few reasons. So one is that, one of the people that inspired us to do this was UVW saw the Architects Union. [00:10:00] And, from our point of view, they're already doing a great job in terms of unionizing workers to campaign for better treatment in practice.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: So from our point of view, they are already doing that sort of work and, they're doing a great job at it. So that, that was part of it. The other part is that at the end of the day, I think something that we. Especially in architecture forget is that at the end of the day, these practices, regardless of how austere their sort of reputation is, regardless of how respected they are in the community, they are just businesses.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And at the end of the day, they're, regardless of what they say about their sort of artistic vision and, creative drive, that kind of thing. At the end of the day. Their first priority is to make money because that's how a business works If you if your first priority is not to make money you usually go out of business.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And so [00:11:00] basically What we're seeing I think is The inherent problem with that system, which is where we've seen architects, progressively over the years, devalue themselves in a sort of competitive way of trying to get more work. So you undercut each other, you undercut each other, to the point where today, the profession is just outrageously undervalued.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And Basically what we're thinking is practices are always going to make these financial, these financially rooted decisions. And there's not so much that we can do about that, without, Creating a new economic system for us to operate within, which, a very big challenge.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: The, so what we thought was okay, how do you push back against a company's drive to make money at whatever cost? You create regulations. You create [00:12:00] standards of practice that everyone has to Follow. And who is the leading voice on that? It's RIBA. Essentially, the reason we looked to RIBA is because they are the ones that sort of set the standard of how architecture practices should organize and should function.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: be run. So they're, though they do not have the sort of direct power to influence practices that maybe some think they do, they still have a lot of influence and they still have a very important role in that architectural ecosystem. So that was the primary motivation in addressing this to them from our side.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think it makes sense. And look, RIBA, it is the Royal Institute of British Architects, so quite rightly as you say. It's been around a while, yeah. Yeah, it's come on, RIBA, you gotta get your weight on,

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And your opinion on this. Earn that fancy title.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, yeah I agree. I [00:13:00] think, I do think they're trying it's what you've is because there's such a large organization.

Stephen Drew: It'd be really interesting to see. I think they're so the open letter. And so for anyone that hasn't checked it out already. You can find that out on, I'm looking here, you've got your, you've got your link tree, haven't you? So you can go on the Instagram, it's all there. You can find the open layout.

Stephen Drew: We'll put it on the Architecture Social somewhere quite clearly as well. I'll post it after this, or I think you didn't you Charlie? You posted it as well. I will, oh, what I'll do is in this podcast, We'll put it, the link to the open letter there as well. So like in the show

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: notes or something.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, we'll do that.

Stephen Drew: But what I think, what I just want to go back to, so we've addressed RIBA and what I would love to do as well is that I'm going to add a little bit of a spin to this. This is my piece as well, is that I think it's great that we're discussing this with RIBA, but I'd like to almost get this open letter.

Stephen Drew: And I think we need to. [00:14:00] Make architectural practices aware of it. So here's my thoughts on this. So you've hit the nail on the head. There's one of the, there's a few factors that this is focus even on working long hours right now. Okay. Totally right. But if the fees on a job are low, basically is, I hate to use the analogy, but shit runs downhill.

Stephen Drew: And that's why sometimes. What happens is a low fee, it's almost called a suicide bid, and you're right, where basically it means maybe less people are on the team, which means that the people currently on the team then have more responsibility, they have to work longer hours, and generally what happens is that those people are quite rightly unhappy.

Stephen Drew: Now, there's been, there's two parts to the problem, is that there's one or two famous architectural practices I'm thinking of, which, okay, have a guess online, have a little think where there's a culture known for long hours. Part of the problem [00:15:00] though is that If an architect leaves for working long hours at a prestigious architectural practice, there's someone that's going to clamber in for that job.

Stephen Drew: And so I think a lot of what you're talking about, what is good is that with the FAF and what you're saying, Charlie, is that We've got to take a bit of responsibility to talk about it, but we've got to, you've got to stick by it as well. And the problem, one of the problems will happen is if as an industry, we like, as you say, the fees need to go high.

Stephen Drew: We need to get our own value, our own self worth, both as a business and as a professional. And what I like about this is, yeah, you shouldn't be working long hours. That's one of the reasons why. I'm, one of the incentives of moving away from directly in architecture is that I didn't want to work long hours, but to where I'm going with this, just to bring it back online, is that before I go ranting, cause this is my favorite subject to rant on is long hours in [00:16:00] architecture and all that stuff what businesses need to learn is that if you don't look after staff, they leave, right?

Stephen Drew: BIM. And it's expensive, Charlie, to get a recruitment consultant. And if you say now you're running Charlie Architecture Practice, and we're going to be in a, we're going to be in a distant we're going to be in a parallel universe, okay? I design

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: only Pizza Hut exteriors. The 90s ones with the big hat on top of the building.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I used to love those.

Stephen Drew: Okay, so you got your pizza hats, you're making a lot of money, and you've got like a hundred people, and you're the opposite of what you're talking about, and you're saying, Steve, these pizza hats driving me down on the costs. I've got bills to pay, I've got my Lamborghini, I've got, I'm keeping a hundred people in the job, and I, And what happens is that I'm saying we're mates and I'm like, Charlie, people you're working people too hard here, mate.

Stephen Drew: And then you go yeah, whatever, Steve, just, I got to do this next pizza express or whatever. And then after [00:17:00] that I'll look at it. I'll look at it after the deadline. What happens is then people start leaving Charlie's Architects and you go, Steve, everyone's leaving. And they'd say, I bloody told you so mate, cause you're driving everyone crazy.

Stephen Drew: And then you go I need to find new people now. So already the reputation of Charlie's Pizza Enterprise is awful because you work people like a dog. But what's interesting is that I then go, Sure, Charlie, I'll recruit for you. Yeah. And you go, Cool, how much is that? And I'll go, Cool. It's probably between 15 to 20 percent of someone's base salary.

Stephen Drew: And so then at that point you go in, Jesus Christ, Steve, how's it so expensive? And this is what I'm trying to get at is recruitment is expensive. And so actually it's a good example that you might try. There was like a heads of wellbeing, a trade treadloan. I hope I said the company's name, right?

Stephen Drew: Stripe Tricot, I'm sorry. That's a bit of a tongue twister. And she basically, I saw a presentation by her and it was amazing. So she was like head of wellbeing. They never had that [00:18:00] role before. They never heard of it. And she went into a meeting with the board of directors, right? And was like, Okay, I'm going to go and we're going to, we're going to make, we're going to make sure that people don't work X amount of hours over.

Stephen Drew: Everyone's going to have on a Friday afternoon, a bit of time to do their own research. And my first reaction is from the board of directors. They were like, are you crazy? What the heck? We can't we're already struggling as it is. But what was interesting is she then put in place this amazing supportive structure.

Stephen Drew: And what happened is Charlie. That suddenly people stopped taking sick days. The sickness in the practice went down huge. People were happy then to go to work and because it wasn't expected, when there was overtime, they went, you know what, Charlie, we'll do the pizza express. I'll do it with you. We'll do the late nights.

Stephen Drew: We'll do it. And then suddenly. People wanted to go to work and it was their choice how much they worked and it wasn't expected and it suddenly then became a really fantastic place to [00:19:00] work and that's where I think that what's amazing and what you're doing is calling out an issue. I think though that maybe one of the ways that we can get there is almost educating architectural practices at the cost savings of actually treating people a little bit more.

Stephen Drew: In some cases, more human. There's some good practices doing it, but maybe to the practices which have still got that old culture, maybe that's one way of doing it. What's your thoughts on my long tirade?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I think it's I think the experience you had is representative of a larger issue with anyone who is campaigning for any kind of equity, which is that the thing you're campaigning for is going to benefit everyone in the long term.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Even the people at the top will benefit from greater equity in the long term for exactly the reasons that you just went into. Even though it appears to be a threat, it appears to be a [00:20:00] cost, it is better for everyone in the long term.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I think the problem that you face with Any campaign for equity is that the people who have the most influence, the most systemic influence, and who are going to be making the decisions which create the change that you want to see or do not create the change that you want to see, they, it's part of this larger problem that is the people in power got their future.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: through the way things are and through the status quo. So any discussion about changing the status quo or changing the way that things are, even if it would be a net benefit to everyone, still appears to be a threat and still appears to be, challenging that person's place in the

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: [00:21:00] And the problem with, like, I really would love to believe that you could just go to Patrick Schumacher and be like, Look, Patrick, treat your workers better and it'll be better for you in the long run. But I really don't think that, I really don't think that Patrick Schumacher is going to sit down and listen to me.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I don't think Patrick Schumacher is going to sit down and listen to anyone. I think the problem with the people who are at the top of these positions is that they, and this perhaps is where maybe I'm a little too cynical, is that I think that they will only respond to overwhelming numbers of people trying to create change.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I don't know if you can, gently educate them into a better way of working.

Stephen Drew: You can chip away, but what I like as well is your attitude where you came in like a bull in the china shop and cause sometimes it's you gotta it's that's why I got the horn a bit. It's it's so jarring in a conversation that it almost wakes sometimes people up in the room.[00:22:00]

Stephen Drew: And you're right, actually going slowly about these issues. It's gonna take time, and I think that there's nothing wrong here in doing it in a way that grabs people's attention, but what I like is that even though you're talking to me, you're open to a discussion with RIBA, you're open, it's, the important thing is conversation about this issue, and not everyone needs to agree on everything but what they do is need, we all agree that there is an issue that I think in architecture, there is, has been, there has been a culture of long hours, low pay.

Stephen Drew: It is what people, it's funny that at first you got two people, so anyone that hasn't worked in architecture will go, Oh, you're an architect, you're rich, aren't you? And then anyone in the industry is just like, it's tough. And of course there's some beautiful things to it. It's not all doom and gloom.

Stephen Drew: The idea that you can build a building and. or a school right now or a hospital and improve people's life. There's a reason why we all get into it, but you're right. It wouldn't just be nice [00:23:00] if it wasn't such pain for some people. And so that's why I feel like this offers a lot of value. So let's go over them more.

Stephen Drew: So that's, I'm curious. So we got number one, which was end unpaid overtime. In all RIBA chartered practices. Okay that makes sense because RIBA, if you're a RIBA chartered practice, they, in theory, could influence that, right? Yeah,

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: if you're a chartered practice, you have to agree to a set of conditions laid out by RIBA.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: For example, one of them that already exists is the fact that if you're a RIBA chartered practice, you should be paying people the living wage as opposed to the minimum wage. Yeah, I've read a lot of experiences that is not always the case, but that is in the sort of contract that you sign to become a RIBA Chartered Practice.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: So there is precedent for introducing these kind of regulations for Chartered [00:24:00] Practices.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think, look, I, to sum up my position on this, I'm seeing a few things, is that I do not think anyone who is a Part 1 if someone offers you an unpaid role, if it's for a short period of time, Maybe have a think about what skills you could learn, but truthfully, I would do the unpaid role, and as soon as I'm there, I would look, I'd be looking for a paid role, probably, I'd be looking for a paid role, using Google in the office, looking for a paid role, and don't ever let anyone tell you that you have to work unpaid it's, you really don't, so you should, the first thing you should do is be looking for a paid job, and the other thing is, from a business perspective, The last person that I'd want to work on my project is unpaid because, say now, this is Charlie's Architects Theory and you're not paying me, say now I've bodged up the pizza thing, you're like, Steve, what are you doing?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and I'm like, you haven't paid me! What [00:25:00] liability do I have? Yeah, what,

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: What onus do I have to do a good job? Yeah, I owe you nothing,

Stephen Drew: because I go, you know what, Charlie, you can do it your bloody self then. I think, I, that's where I think, actually anyone that's saying they will offer an unpaid role to someone is, it's a poor business decision.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah. It's, it is technically illegal in the UK to, to offer an unpaid position. So that, that's why we're specifically looking at unpaid overtime where you are getting a salary you, so something that was really fascinating to me from the experiences that we collected.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: was certain people had tallied up their hours of unpaid overtime and what they figured out was that if you work your salary out per hour, a lot of architectural assistants are working below minimum wage. Fair enough. It's, it is I, when you talk about like a good practice that only asks people to work, unpaid overtime occasionally yeah, maybe that wouldn't make that big of a difference to your hourly [00:26:00] salary Yeah, some practices are really like taking it to the point where your hourly salary is below minimum wage

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree with you there.

Stephen Drew: So I might I Must admit maybe it's because my Friday brain was dropping off and I thought I was unpaid jobs, but you're right, unpaid overtime.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: That is still a problem to be fair, but that is a problem that RIBA have to some extent addressed, because in the agreement you have to sign to become a RIBA charter practice, you have to agree to pay anyone who works for you, whether they're a student, whether they're a professional, whatever.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: So to be fair to RIBA, They have already cut to be a little bit fair to RIBA, they put it in the contract. They're not very good at enforcing it, but it's in the contract. So they haven't done nothing on that front. And I'll give them that.

Stephen Drew: See, Faf, you are nice. You give RIBA a little brownie point there.

Stephen Drew: I will say they haven't done

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: [00:27:00] nothing.

Stephen Drew: No, fair. Look, I think. End Unpaid Overtime in all REAP charter practices. It's a definitely good conversation. And the bit that I would like to throw in is that I think it should be End Expected Unpaid Overtime. And I think expected is a really interesting word because What I think is it should be more power if I'm working for you, it's my choice and you shouldn't, but where's interesting.

Stephen Drew: And you got all the stories in here as well is the play on that, that the fact that most people in electrical practice, they feel, I feel like a lot of people. You almost need to have the confidence to realize that you don't have to do it, but it's almost made to feel like you're expected to do it. I can totally see it happening where you're part of a team, everyone's working because they've got this in the video game industry as well, and it's a big problem called crunch.

Stephen Drew: And, with Cyberpunk, which came out, it was all over the news. And it's that implied, it's that [00:28:00] implied thing right off, like Charlie, but I'm working and John's working, and Dave's working, so why are you gonna, 'cause if you don't work, you can go Charlie, but then you're putting the rest of us in a pinch.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah. It's an interesting example of, almost like reverse solidarity. Where traditionally when you talk about worker solidarity, you're talking about workers coming together to campaign for better rights. But it's almost been flipped on its head in a lot of companies where now the pressure is.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I'm working for free. Why aren't you working for free? Yeah. It's such a bizarre parody of what, solidarity is supposed to be amongst employees.

Stephen Drew: Totally. I've got an example with it. So in architectural recruitment, for instance, okay, so my fees get pushed down as well. And so I've got some I've had, I've got a few architectural practices which work with me on recruitment.

Stephen Drew: And so the way architectural practice recruitment works is that you get a percentage. They, so if I introduce you to let's say a practice, [00:29:00] like EPR Architects where I work, they will pay me X percentage of your annual salary. For the introduction that doesn't come out of your salary anything.

Stephen Drew: That's just the fee. So the introduction is like a few thousand pounds or whatever Sounds like a lot but it's a lot of man hours onto it But I get the same thing right where some architectural practices will hammer my fees down and they go we pay Low fee, so you should as well. And then the bit I've learned now is that I always say look, Charlie, I can work at a lower fee for you, but it's exactly like the way you do architecture.

Stephen Drew: So what are we cutting out of the process here? Okay. I can't no longer, I can't meet the candidates anymore because I'm not being paid to do that. I can't thoroughly check their backgrounds. I can't sit down and get their true meanings because the fees are cut. So I'm just willing CVs over. Bye. And what's interesting then is that suddenly companies then realize that they want the service of the higher fee.

Stephen Drew: But what [00:30:00] I've learned is now you've, I stay stronger to my views on my worth. What my time is not working three hours. And I think to go to your point there, you hit the nail on the head. It's this whole thing of working for free, getting paid low fees and committing to things where you're put under pressure.

Stephen Drew: And then that kind of has a negative knock on effect. So yeah I felt it as well. The other thing, let's talk about some of the other points that you've got here. So this one is going to be an interesting, this is a definitely interesting point.

The Role of Architectural Assistants
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Stephen Drew: Provide effective oversight on the architectural assistant role.

Stephen Drew: Holy moly the Pandora's box of the architectural assistant. And yeah. I'm technically architectural assistant. Now, first of all, and this is my opinion before you even go into it. I always. It's so awkward, isn't it, sometimes when you say architectural assistant, because it sounds like I'm literally sharpening [00:31:00] pencils for a bloody architect.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: It sounds like you're carrying the drawings.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. But I studied it for five years and I worked in the industry for three years and I'm an architectural assistant. So can you, in your words run through your thoughts on this, why you put this in the open letter as well? Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah the second demand about the oversight for the architectural assistant role in a lot of ways, that is what kicked this all off for me personally, was, I graduated myself I finished my master's degree last year, and like many people, I'm then in this sort of Pandemic job search world.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Ugh. And which is a wonderful place to be. No, it definitely isn't. And what what I kept seeing was I kept seeing these ads for and working in recruitment, I'm sure you know about this. Part two with two, three, whatever years of experience and You know as a graduate you're sitting there thinking.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: What did I do all of this? [00:32:00] Education and part one for if now I've done two degrees I've paid 45 grand to universities and You're telling me I'm not qualified That, something's not working. And the problem, as we see it, is that the role is ambiguous about what it's supposed to be.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And when there's ambiguity in, particularly in some kind of like business relationship, the person who benefits from the ambiguity is the person in power because they can take advantage of the ambiguity. So the ambiguity I'm talking about is that RIBA themselves define an architectural assistant as a student working in practice to gain experience.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: So it's very clearly defined from the outset. As part of your education, right? You do it to learn, you do [00:33:00] it to move towards qualifying as an architect. Yeah. It's not supposed to be a position where you purely provide value to your employer. The idea is that it's like a mutually beneficial relationship.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: But, the way it's being put into practice, by architectural practices, is this completely one sided approach of, we want you to have experience, we want you to give us the maximum amount of value that we can squeeze out of you, and our responsibilities for educating you, looking at your PEDR sheets, all of that, that all comes as secondary, tertiary priorities.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Peace. The problem is that the role is just simply not working in the way that it was intended to work. And RIBA seems to just be totally nonplussed about it. They seem very happy for it to continue in this kind of [00:34:00] dysfunctional manner that it's already in. And, the other issue is that it also gives, like I said, ambiguity benefits the person in power.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: It gives practices the opportunity to hire people with the same experience as an architect, but because they're coming in into these entry level positions, they can pay them less. So it's, and that's not something that all practices do. Some practices will pay by experience, but it's something that can happen.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And it's just it's, yeah the pathway to qualification, the architectural assistant role it is currently just very dysfunctional there's a lot of opportunity for exploitation in that pathway, and, it just needs some sort of reassessment. It needs some kind of work done to make it functional.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree. I'm like I said, so I'm an architectural assistant, and so I, what's interesting, what was the actual quote you [00:35:00] mentioned? It was that it's to someone in pursuit of becoming an architect. I'm, yeah the definition is a student employed by practice. Okay, I am the worst architectural assistant in the world, then, because I haven't been in architecture for ages.

Stephen Drew: And do you know what's, that really resonated with me personally, because, yeah, there's a few things going on here where actually, you're right I think that What's interesting is that salaries normally jump up the moment someone gets qualified, and if you're an architectural assistant, which has industry experience, I would, I agree with you that they're most likely on a lesser salary than their architect's counterpart, who knows just as much.

Stephen Drew: So that is one of the problems. And the, yeah, the other thing that I find is, this isn't necessarily. This is more of a bigger issue with education, but you're right. The actual cost of now [00:36:00] getting a degree and diploma, this kind of puts more pressure on the problem. And I remember reading, I think it was, what's his name?

Stephen Drew: Years ago, there was a Stephen Hall, I want to say Stephen Hall,

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: all of the names, all of the names of every RIBA president sounds exactly the same to me. It's always like Alan cumbersome.

Stephen Drew: Okay. Yeah. So there's Stephen guy, right? He he basically, what did he say? He said something like he was looking at re changing the RIBA system, that hasn't changed. You're right. I remember at the time he was like I'm thinking that a part two, if they've done a few years industry, they can then become an architect or there's a pathway to it.

Navigating the Architecture Career Path
---

Stephen Drew: And I was like, I remember reading it thinking brilliant, Charlie, this is how I do it without doing my part three.

Stephen Drew: Cause I'm, because I can just say technically I've been in the industry and yeah, that hasn't changed. So we've basically got this older model, right? Where you've got, you need your three years [00:37:00] and your part one. First year's a bit of a giggle, you're hungover and never going to the class.

Stephen Drew: Second year gets a bit more serious, but yeah. Now, what's interesting is, though, An architecture degree degree in diploma, I thought it was personally really the skills you learn are shit hot, right? You can, there's no doubt that presenting work and crits and, being destroyed and all that stuff can set you up for these really good skills in life.

Stephen Drew: And I guess now we're on a podcast, we're doing all this stuff because. You learn all these amazing skills.

The Financial Burden of Architecture Education
---

Stephen Drew: The issue is though, I, the year above me, I remember they were paying 1,500 pound per year. I got really upset. You're gonna be jealous of me though, 'cause I paid 3000 pound a year. You paid how much?

Stephen Drew: God knows how much you paid.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: 9,000. 9,000 a year. Tuition fees. Yeah. Let alone like rent, accommodation accommodation. Et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, it just becomes something that you just a lot of people like, who went to [00:38:00] university in the 9k plus years, I think the majority have just acknowledged that they will just never pay it back because it does get I don't know if you know this, but it does get written off when you are, 50.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I think. I think, by that age, if you haven't paid it off yet, they're just like, wipe the slate clean. So to me, I'm just like never gonna pay it off, so might as well borrow as much as I can.

Challenges in the Architecture Profession
---

Stephen Drew: I don't, the problem is that, yeah, it's certainly an expensive career. For the salary that you're going to get paid and then the problem is that it goes back to, then you've got to really enjoy the job.

Stephen Drew: It's going to be almost, it's like a life choice architecture because you've got to really want to enjoy it. And then it goes back to the other issues where you raised before. If it gets really hard to enjoy it, if you're working in a culture where you work in long hours and low pay.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: And do you get what I mean? There's this world of pain that you're building up, Charlie, that you discover. It's you pay a lot, and then you work [00:39:00] hard. There's so many facets going on, which kind of build up to this. But at the same time, I'm like you. I think that you can't just go, oh this is a bigger problem than me, and we don't set the tuition fees.

Stephen Drew: We've all got to look at it and slowly chip away at making the Things, places more pleasant for people to work. I think that's the, I think that's the big thing.

The Architectural Assistant Loophole
---

Stephen Drew: And the Architectural Assistant loophole, you're right. Cause I am stuck now. Okay. So let's pretend I give up recruitment and I want to go back to architectural practice.

Stephen Drew: I am in a world of pain. Because suddenly my salary and my worth goes back down to

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: 28 to

Stephen Drew: 30 grand.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: 28 is the average right now, yeah.

Stephen Drew: So I'm screwed. That's in London by the way.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Not anywhere else. 28 if you're in London. Anywhere else it'll be lower than that.

Stephen Drew: I know a practice will do 32 grand. Okay. Yeah,

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: no, they exist, but on the current RIBA pay scale, 28 in London is the average, I [00:40:00] think.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: It's

Stephen Drew: too

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: low, really.

Stephen Drew: It should be more. It should be 30. I'm just saying my opinion, at least. It should be as high as possible. You're right. If the fees Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I think it's diff okay, I can say this factually. How about this, Charlie? So I was on 30, 000 as a part two in 2012.

Stephen Drew: Mm nine years later. So that's what you had nine years ago. That's what I was on.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: So that's not even adjusting for inflation. No. Exactly. So thats less actually, that's actually getting paid less now than nine years ago.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And there you go. And I can say that because that was a fact, and I felt at the time that EPR architects were extremely generous with the salary and they are quite good with salaries.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. But I remember I was paid a lot more than some of my mates. Oh. And that's embarrassing isn't There's there

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: so many, there's so many horror stories. If you look through the experiences in the letter, I think. It was like 17, 000 was something I saw for a part one 16 and a half thousand, like really like [00:41:00] as low as you can get, to be honest.

Freelance Exploitation in Architecture
---

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah, and the other interesting loophole, which I didn't know about before reading through all of those experiences in the letter, was that a lot of practices use freelance positions to Basically pay people below minimum wage. So

Stephen Drew: how does that work? I don't see I, cause I deal with, I've in terms of recruitment, I've had contractors.

Stephen Drew: Contracting that companies and they actually did get decent money. But so this interesting, this freelance thing you want to, is this more you've heard people that are architectural assistants, which are being freelancers. Is that what you're thinking of?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah. So architectural assistants will sometimes be employed as Freelancers, which means that you can, pay them a sort of quote unquote hourly rate, but then what tends to happen is that the architectural assistants have none of the freedom that [00:42:00] independent contractors usually have because they're still working full time in a lot of these cases.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: They're still having to work the same hours as the practice. So essentially, in effect, they are regular employees. Legally, they're freelancers who are doing their own unpaid overtime, but the effect of that is that you essentially have a full time employee that you can pay less than minimum wage.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And that, that's something that we heard multiple times in the experiences in the open letter. That's pretty bad. It reminds me of the

Stephen Drew: Uber scenario. Do you remember when they were full time employees, but basically now, we don't make the same car?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: It's taking advantage of, the gig economy, basically.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And it's taking advantage of people's desperation to work. So it's, yeah it's, it is part of a larger problem of zero hour contracts and freelance [00:43:00] work and that kind of thing but it's something that in the conversation of, unpaid overtime and things like that the issue of freelancers and independent contractors, that's actually something I hadn't heard.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: brought up before in discussions within architecture about this. And yet it was something that came up a few times in the experiences in the open letter.

Stephen Drew: It's interesting because I'm lucky that some of the clients I have in terms of recruitment, they're ethical employers and I'll but, The idea of that happening I've not heard of it myself, but bizarrely, I don't disbelieve you.

Stephen Drew: I, but actually these companies, if you're a freelancer, if you've been asked to do this, you should talk about it. The, I think that the more, and it reminds me years ago, right Charlie, there was this website called Archileaks. You would have loved, you would have absolutely. Oh, you would have loved this. You would have loved, this is right up your street.

Stephen Drew: And so it was like archileaks. com and you had people on there that would just be like, I work at XYZ, my boss [00:44:00] did this and that, and it was it was like the interesting taboo website. It's like some, you Google your architectural practice and see if someone popped up there.

Stephen Drew: And on one hand, the Catch 22 is when something's anonymous. It's harder to take it as serious because you don't know if the truth is there or not, but at the same time, it's really hard to ask someone to un anonymize themselves because then they it's like the whole Me Too thing. Look, Marlon Manson's, this week, right?

Stephen Drew: With the whole, everyone's coming out and saying how awful a person it is. And. I was shocked because I've listened to Marlon Manson's music and now I'm like, oh my, but I, it's basically good he's being called out.

Promoting Ethical Practices in Architecture
---

Stephen Drew: What I'm saying is we need to call out these practices, which are taking the piss, excuse my language, we've taken the piss with this loophole because I think that one of the ways that will solve this is if we should promote architectural practices who are [00:45:00] looking after their staff, leading from the front, inclusive environment, giving time off, going above and beyond these practices should be celebrated.

Stephen Drew: And I wonder we could do an element of talking about practices which maybe not as ethical, like calling out for things, but I wonder whether one real powerful way of getting employees to change their ways would be to champion the amazing architectural practices. I'll tell you what, speaking on the spot, I'll do something with it.

Stephen Drew: We could do a little thing on the Architecture Social. Where if we find out amazing architectural practices, which look after their staff, I will put them on the website. I will put all the contact details there. We can then rally up really good. All the all the architectural students of the world can look and see holy moly, this company is amazing.

Stephen Drew: They'll get loads of applicants. And therefore, maybe in a business way, we can start conditioning [00:46:00] employers to think, Oh shit, I want to be on Steve's website or we want to be on the Architectural Social and get Charlie's recommendation as a good employer. Because then suddenly, they'll get loads of good people going.

Stephen Drew: Maybe that's an idea?

The Power of Grassroots Movements
---

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah, I think something that is a lot more powerful today than it was, even 10 years ago is how the sort of met mechanisms that we can use to create sort of grassroots movements, like you just discussed. Like, some, something that's really been crazy to wrap my head around.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: In this whole process, is that from the first survey we released about this, to this point of getting, what are we on right now 670 signatures or something, I basically haven't left this house. I've done half of this in sweatpants on a phone, do you know what I mean? It's [00:47:00] there's, despite all of the problems with, social media, there is so much potential through it to facilitate this kind of Brassroots, campaigning this sort of collective voice of people who traditionally do not get to speak, put their head above the parapet and say something.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Think there's a lot of opportunity in these sort of, Systems. Think about this, even 10 years ago, even 10 years ago I would probably be like, maybe emailing the open letter around to people, maybe I'd be putting it up on the wall of my studio, that kind of thing.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah. Do you think I would have been able to get a response from RIBA in four days of doing that? No. But with Instagram, we had RIBA like, reach out to us and be like, hi, we've read the letter, we'll be in touch. Within four days of Getting people to sign it. These tools are really, there's so much potential in them for this kind of organizing.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And I think there's [00:48:00] definitely a lot of potential in terms of like you said, boosting the profile of people who, who are practicing in a very progressive and ethical way. I think there's a lot of potential for that. And. Yeah, I really just hope that this kind of collective will and collective ability to influence something leads to a lot more kind of awareness and a lot more willingness to engage with the sort of current systems that we work within.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Because, one of the huge problems with, RIBA presidential election, for example, was the turnout was abysmal. So few people voted for the new president and especially so few student members, and i it's just because we feel powerless in the system, so it's oh, what's the point of voting?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: It's not going to change anything anyway. These kind of organizational structures that kind of break down how things and tell [00:49:00] people you can. influence the very highest levels of the organizations that you participate in if you work with other people I, I really hope that could lead to this kind of larger change in the current of the profession in, in, in an ideal world.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I'll

Stephen Drew: be I'll be really honest with you. It can go two ways, right? Like we're chatting here now, and it depends on you, it's gotta be an important issue. And what the one thing you gotta be careful with social media is that you're right. It's about a cause. And it's about, Really, it's the community which gets behind the open letter, which will drive it, right?

Stephen Drew: But if it's suddenly the flavor of the week, and this is the thing of with Instagram, it's Oh, Faf's a bit of fun this week, and yeah, but people have got to really get behind the message, and I think they are. What I will say to you is, rather than Hey, you've, thanks Charlie, you've been This week's podcast and he'll go live next week and then me and you never speak again.

Stephen Drew: What I would love to do is, I seriously [00:50:00] think it's a great idea. And what I quite like about with the Architecture Social, and take it in a nice way with the FAF, right? No one, I felt there was no space for Online people to have real conversations or I felt cause I was on furlough last year and the idea of being a part one or part two during this time, it was, is a bit of a shitty scenario.

Stephen Drew: And what was nice is that building originally, it was a bit of a resource for give, hopefully giving a bit of support to people and empowering people to go on with their search. And since then become a community. And one of the things I'm really passionate about is.

Stephen Drew: Championing people or architecture practices, which I think are doing it the right way, so I'll do you a deal and we'll get you, I want the Charlie, we'll call it, I don't know, maybe we'll call it the FAF Award, hear your thoughts on this right, but if you give the FAF Award to the best architectural practice, I think that would be cool, And I, what I'll do [00:51:00] now, you don't have to do it, but just saying I invented the FAF awards.

Stephen Drew: If it becomes as big as the medals and stuff, I want you to remember your old pal, Steve. I'll be like, I came up with a name and he'll be like, yeah whatever, Steve. But I think that's how you make change. And I do think it's important to recognize where people have gone wrong, but it's a bit like, when like an awful event happens and I almost don't want to give the limelight.

Stephen Drew: to bad employers because i'm just like forget that i'd rather spend the energy on like for instance good employers i know epr i work there i think they're very good hawkins brown they got a cool culture there and they've got amazing benefits amazing Rewards. And so my one of the Chris artists has actually joined the dev looking at a developer right now where they're very liberal with you can work whatever hours you want, beat bag culture, very inclusivity.

Stephen Drew: And this is really important stuff. And we need to be talking about, how to employ people properly, how to be [00:52:00] inclusive. We need to talk about like we were saying earlier, people need to remember that if they are going to work unpaid overtime, it's their choice, they're not contractually bound, and we need to champion companies which like, do it the right way.

Stephen Drew: One of the parts in the Architecture Social is, like a directory, that I'm trying to build up of architectural practices. But what we can do, and I'm serious man, is that I'm happy in the directory to give emphasis to good employers. And I'll tell you what, I will not put someone on the directory. I'll take them, oh, Felix swearing here, oh, whatever, we're swearing this, I'll take them fucking off the directory if they're unawful.

Stephen Drew: Architectural Practice, because I'll black, I'll, I don't want to say blacklist you, but, I am not okay with the idea of someone, um, hiring people, treating people the wrong way. The good news is, I think an awful lot of practices do it right, or their intentions are. Getting there. We just got to keep the conversation going.

Stephen Drew: And I think that from my point of view of seeing recruitment [00:53:00] from the mid sides the sideline, I do think that there's actually a huge financial gain for companies to to treat people a little bit better because they'll stay longer. They'll be better staff. They'll be more motivated and the output will be better.

Stephen Drew: So my thoughts on him. What do you think? Should we do the Charlie Award? Should we call it the Charlie Award or the FAF Award?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Oh God. I would feel incredibly false, like pretending that my opinion was like something worth giving an award from

Stephen Drew: I think I see it a bit more tongue in cheek.

Stephen Drew: Like the FAF Award is not, it's I tell you what I did a really good, I went to a talk before the COVID where. There's, oh my gosh, what was the name of it something, Negroni Talks, and so it was quite a controversial one, where they were talking about, What the value of awards are in architecture, and it's

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: yeah,

Stephen Drew: the award. And did you know there's an awards ceremony [00:54:00] for awards ceremonies. So the awards of the awards, which is an absolute doesn't surprise me. It's an absolute circle jerk really, isn't it? But basically, yeah, I do think though architectural practices, which do good, should be recognized, and I do think it would be a bit of fun.

Stephen Drew: Bit of faff to, to cause what's really interesting about speaking to you is you're very approachable, right? You're very open to communication. The first time you added me on Instagram, I was like, Oh what world of pain is this? And I'm like I gotta be careful, but actually, no, because you're a human being and you actually, there's a really good agenda here, and I think there's a nice spirit with it as well, with the memes and, I'd be interested to see what you do.

Stephen Drew: Are you interested in making it are you interested in what, at what point is faff to you? Reached his goals. Is it the FAF Awards? Or are you like, Stephen, that's a terrible idea. Or, what is, [00:55:00] where do you see FAF going? Right now it's about getting the open letter, right? But after that, where are we going?

Future of the FAF Initiative
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Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah yeah, originally it was very much just about, The open letter. I suppose it's connected to the reason for making the group at all, because for half of the campaign, for the entire time we were gathering we were doing the survey and things like that FAF has only existed for six days.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: This entire thing was, for the majority of the time, just led from my Instagram account. And the reason I decided to shift it away from me as an individual was that, one, I been working with some, incredibly Intelligent, competent people in terms of developing the survey, writing the letter, that kind of thing.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: So I wanted to take my face off of it [00:56:00] because it was like a group effort. And the, yeah, the other thing was I suppose it was like this subconscious ambition for it to, Be more than what I had originally intended for it to be. Because originally I was like, in my head, I was like, do the survey, write the letter, send the letter , do something else g get, get back to like my life, whatever I'm doing.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And the, I think that the motivation for trying to turn it into like kind of group or a, um. Instagram loves to use the word community the reason for that was that I am a little skeptical about the response we're gonna get from RIBA, first of all so I have a feeling that The response is going to be very it's just going to be like them trying to placate us and [00:57:00] being like, Oh yes, we are actively working on this and we're doing lots of good things and we won't tell you what it is, but we're going to say the right things.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: That's what I'm expecting, again, I'm probably maybe being a bit cynical, but that's what I'm expecting. And so in terms of. The longevity of this, I think the reason why this connect, because, there have been a lot of campaigns like this UvwSoar has done really big campaigns like this articles going back years and years are talking about unpaid overtime in the profession.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: We're not raising any of these topics for the first time. What I think is, what I think that there is a unique opportunity to take advantage of by a group like Bath is that things like UVW saw they're like a proper union, so they represent working people, and what we've seen is that the ambiguity of the Architectural Assistant position means that they're [00:58:00] going to be less likely to join a union because they, Are they workers?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Are they students? We don't really know. We also don't really have a voice for students apart from architecture societies and universities are great and they've done so much to publicize the letter and get signatures for us. So many societies have Shared it and emailed it to people, but the problem with that is that, you're only in a society like that for a couple of years, and then you leave, so the ways that it can work for people are limited by that time frame, so I think I was looking at something like FAF as an opportunity to represent people in the precarious working situations, the people in the ambiguous space between student and worker, for students themselves, that kind of thing.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And, the thing I think people responded really well to with the open letter is that It wasn't just, we didn't start with the open letter, it wasn't just us being like, here's what we [00:59:00] think is wrong. Nag do this RIBA, do that RIBA. It was, first we did a survey, we put together a lot of data, we did the research, and I think that's what people responded to the most in the letter.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Is that it wasn't just off the cuff, it was based on Hundreds of people's opinions and experiences and so that is it. Thank you. If there is a, if there's a life after the open letter, which I hope there will be I hope it's almost like an opportunity for FAF to be like a research group that studies the conditions of employment and studies the, uh, the system of architecture as education, as business, and produces like reports or Data about what's working, what isn't working, what needs to change.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: And, that, but a lot of that is because, a lot of my architecture background is in research and writing and things like that. So that's my [01:00:00] momentum and my kind of idea of what could be done. But also I just want other people to work on it as well, ideally, in maybe a month or two I would want me to be looking at it maybe once a week. And it to just be something that a group of people who, you know, all committed to like improving equity in the profession are all collaboratively working on and then, I don't know, for me it feels less like a vanity project or it feels less like my thing, it's like actually something that is being collaboratively worked on for the benefit of The people who are in the most vulnerable positions in the profession right now.

Championing Good Employers
---

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that, you know what, it resonates a lot with me You've inspired me from this and I'll give you, you can hold me accountable a little bit, but what I'm going to do is, no seriously, because what I quite like is that [01:01:00] the architecture social and a little bit, partly because of my yeah, working in industry is important, but in terms of recruitment In that little world of employment, one of the goals of the Architecture Social is to bring practices closer to students, and almost remove some of the barriers in terms of recruitment, and I'm saying to employers, you can sign up there and start hiring people straight away, but one of the things that I am going to do, and this has all come to the forefront, From the FAF, seriously, is that I am going to champion on the social employers that I think do it right, and we will see from in my, and that'll be maybe my little way of doing my little bit of FAF or whatever, right?

Stephen Drew: But maybe that will have a little bit of a positive change. Maybe not. I don't know, but we'll see together. I predict that could. Make a little bit of a ripple effect, but this is the point is that's just me doing my little thing in my little world and everyone has perspective [01:02:00] into FAF, whether you've experienced an industry or whether you're sharing the open letter or you're discussing it or you're speaking to RIBA or you're speaking to your employer and talking about these things.

Stephen Drew: That's what's going to make the difference. And actually, and this is the important thing to get, I think is that, that just clicking a yeah, there's a little bit of a value in it, but everyone should discuss it. Do you agree with the five points? Do you disagree? It's really important to have that conversation.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And I think that's, what's going to have to change. So it's really good. That RIBA has acknowledged it. Great. Next step is discussing it. So RIBA, if you're listening, there you go. You've got Charlier, it's quite accessible. And I'm sure, I think that one of the ways that would open this conversation up is that conversation with RIBA.

Stephen Drew: So hopefully, as much as I enjoyed your meme, Of 300 Sparta and Reba coming down from the mountain. It's just yeah. Yeah. I [01:03:00] wonder, I actually have a funny feeling that because Reba's a big company Reba future Architects could be a way in. 'cause they seem like a bit of a fun, responsive team and they're active on Instagram, I have no doubt they've, they know what the faf is about. Do you know what I'm saying? So yeah. Re

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Reba education follows us. So I'm sure I'm sure they've seen it.

Stephen Drew: Re Reba Future Architects. You go, we got to do a little faf meme at them and see what happens. Okay.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: You, it's really funny you said that 'cause I actually made one today and I was like this is two devices.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: We, we've gone too much and we've gone too up. It was the moment where I looked at it and I was like. This is too much.

Stephen Drew: Send it to me on WhatsApp and I'll tell you, I'll be like, Charlie, mate, you've gone a bit too far here. You've got to build up to these things. I will, I'll send you in.

Stephen Drew: You're going to lose them. We've got to win people over, mate. I know, I have

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: to temper my own personal style of humour, which is Mean, basically , like my, my, my humor is a little mean. I don it's not gonna go [01:04:00] you anywhere. Don't. And suddenly fashion. I don't mean it in a bad way. I think it's it is, it's actually part of a larger opinion, which is that if you are trying to negotiate with someone at a position of like far greater power to you.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: You can rib them a bit, you can roast them a bit. That levels the playing field, right? And I feel okay doing it, I feel okay doing it to RIBA big big strong RIBA. I feel okay doing it to them. I think doing it to the future architects, I'd feel a bit bad. Because I think they, they mean well.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I think they're doing Good things and that their hearts are in the right place. It's the people I am completely unapologetic about being antagonistic towards, are the people at the top.

Stephen Drew: I know who you are. Patrick got a bad time on our podcast earlier. But I tell you what I think, get read for Future Architects because Imagine the way of changes that conversation going everywhere and they are part of RIBA and they're probably going to be a really good factor to have on your [01:05:00] site because it's such a big organization and what I would say right from what I've learned is that I worked at like even EPR right is 200 people the bigger the companies are and like a McDonald's company where I work it's all good intentions but big companies it takes a while for decisions right but the more and more People can influence these decisions, then you'll make a big difference.

Stephen Drew: So RIBA Future Architects let me look at the camera, RIBA Future Architects, all right we're, we, I'm going to send a link to them on this and I'll, we'll test them because it's quite a thing. We'll see if they got to the hour and 13 minute mark. And let's see if they, let's see, let's do a word to see if they got, I'll say, what word did we say?

Stephen Drew: Pizza Hut roof. What word? Pizza Hut roof. I was going to say oranges, what were you going to say? I said pizza hut roof. Okay, pizza hut roof. So if you at bath with pizza hut roof, or you message me and say oranges, I will then post that and we know that you're listening. I [01:06:00] have, I feel like I'm, you know what I feel like?

Stephen Drew: I feel like, um, the Star Wars I'm memeing everything with you now. I feel like Obi Wan, you're my only hope. BRIEF THE FUTURE ARCHITECTS, you're my only hope, come on. Send us the oranges and the pizza hat roof.

Final Thoughts and Call to Action
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Stephen Drew: But look, I think that I we touched upon your other point of accountability for exploitative work environments.

Stephen Drew: And that's the bit I'm quite passionate about. So what I'll do is I'm going to, I'm going to cherish people, employers that I feel are doing it right. You have my commitment on that because it's in line with my goals. But yeah, RIBA should hold them accountable. I'll do my thing, they'll do, hopefully they'll do their, your thing.

Stephen Drew: The other points here I think maybe we can touch upon it another time, because otherwise I'm gonna, I like to talk a lot, but we're, right now we're like Lord of the Rings 1. I want to keep it short and sweet for everyone, and we've had a fun tone, but you address your greater transparency in all of RIBA's budget.

Stephen Drew: Fair enough, really, isn't it? And establishing a more representative governing [01:07:00] body, and I think that's more of a talking point directly with RIBA, but I think it makes sense. For anyone that's got to this point, well done, and sorry, I feel I've been in a talking mood today, guys, and I've quite enjoyed having a chat with Charlie, but I would just remind everyone, and You can find Faf on Instagram.

Stephen Drew: I'm going to post the link to Faf. I quite enjoy saying Faf It's good branding. It's so good, isn't it? I'm going to post the open letter on this podcast. I'm going to try and get that out this weekend, because I think it will be fun to have it ready for everyone at RIBA for Monday morning.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: By the time people read it, we might have posted it. Come close to a thousand signatures.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. How cool would that be? That'd be great. Yeah. We'll get that out. But for yeah, I was gonna say, do you have any questions for me, Charlie, and flip the flip the chat around the bank?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: I think, not so much of a question, but it's very reaffirming to see that people in [01:08:00] other sectors of, the architecture industry are aware of.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: These issues and, sympathetic to it because, some, especially when you're a student or when you're an architectural assistant, sometimes it does appear very much as if we're left out to dry. It's, the whole motive of the sort of group bath itself is to foster that sort of solidarity between people.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: So it's very reaffirming to get that from not just other people who are architectural assistants, but from people who are in other sort of sectors of the umbrella of architecture as well.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, of course. And look, my pleasure. This, where it's close to home is that I'm a part two, that's not quite in the conventional way.

Stephen Drew: And I do think that you're right. There is this part two hole you can fall into. And I, what I do think, and what's been quite refreshing about this is that, I actually do agree with a lot [01:09:00] of the things here. And I have seen it from the employer's end of the scale where sometimes good intentions there are good intentions there.

Stephen Drew: Sometimes it can get lost. I do feel like a lot of architectural practices are doing it right, the right way, but what is clear from this is I think we need to champion the ones that are doing it right, because I think that will lead change because slowly the less attention. Practices, which have Bad practices, right?

Stephen Drew: It's gonna, the fact that the good companies are getting the spotlight, they'll get all the amazing people really interested in the bright, young, passionate, diverse, inclusive students, and they'll have a plethora of skill sets that are dying to work at them because they're a nice place to work. So it solves the problem.

Stephen Drew: And then, then you can imagine like your, remember Parallel Universe, Charlie's architectural practice. And then, at the end of the conversation, like you're like, No one's applying to me anymore. And I'll be like yeah, Charlie, you [01:10:00] bloody worked everyone into the grave, mate. No one wants to, and your reputation precedes you.

Stephen Drew: And that's what I think is really important for employees to remember is that your reputation is worth its weight in gold. And when you're interviewing people, you have to treat them with respect when you, when they're employed there, sometimes things don't go the right way because it's life, but you need to constantly.

Stephen Drew: Speak to employees, ask their feedback, say, look, sorry that this happened with the deadline. We're going to try and work things out. We're going to try and do this. You need to bring people into the process. But like a good example is JTP, right? The amount of awards they've won for being good employers.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. It's amazing. So John Thompson and Partners, I work with them on recruitment. They are really good. No one ever leaves there. And it's the same with Richard Rogers, right? I have a joke sometimes that the only people that leave Richard Rogers practices is when they either quit architecture or they die because it's there, because it's a [01:11:00] good, it's a good place to work.

Stephen Drew: Like they enjoy the design and you're not worked into the you're not worked into the grave early and people love it. So I never, ever seen in my professional career, Charlie, a CV from Richard Rogers.

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: They have that green carpet as well. I bet that makes a big difference.

Stephen Drew: There you go. We need the green carpet.

Stephen Drew: I think they were a great idea. Thank you so much, Charlie. This has been an absolute pleasure and we will put the links for that. And just before we go, anyone listening to find you, where should they find you?

Charlie Edmonds @ FAF: Yeah, so the group is fa. front on Instagram, and my personal account is charlie underscore edmo, e d m o.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. Fantastic. Thank you so much, everyone. This has been the Architecture Social, and now, Charlie, I'm going to end the show. Don't go out because I've had another guest cut the call off and I've got to upload the podcast. So thank you so [01:12:00] much, mate. Stay here and we'll see everyone next time. Great.