Ahead of the Curve: Engineering a Greener Tomorrow, ft. Chris Atkins from Symmetrys

Ahead of the Curve_ Engineering a Greener Tomorrow_ ft_ Chris Atkins from Symmetrys
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[00:00:00]

Stephen Drew: It's Friday, lunchtime special. Come on, get that sandwich. We're going to strap in. We're going to talk about some interesting stuff. How your buildings stand up. ~Well, ~it's not going to be down to your drawings, is it? Maybe it'll be my guest who helps you out on that. Anyways, show goes on in 24 seconds.

Hello everyone and welcome to this live stream special on the Friday. Put away your BIM drawings for [00:01:00] just a minute. And we're all going to chill out. And if you're down the pub, I won't tell your boss, but I appreciate you being here to talk about something special. Part of the design team, you're an architectural professional.

You're going to be working with other people as well, but who on that team is going to be helping you realize your awesome buildings? So we're going to look at. the people you're working alongside and discuss and learn a little bit more about their roles and helping as well with the sustainable agenda.

Because this planet, we've only got one of it. So on that note, I've got an awesome guest, Mr. Chris Atkins from Symmetries, Structural and Civil Engineers. Chris, how are you, sir?

Chris Atkins: I'm not bad, Steve. How are you? You alright? Thanks for having me.

Stephen Drew: I'm super glad you're here. Thank you for drilling holes in the wall to connect in your meeting room for this live stream special. I really appreciate it. Now, Chris, while we've met just before this and got to learn about each other, in case someone [00:02:00] hasn't met you before, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, first of all?

Chris Atkins: Yeah, by all means. I was thinking about this prior to coming on and it's been quite an interesting journey. So I started in 1986, so just a couple of weeks ago. And I was working for a company in St. Albans called Austin Truman Associates. Structural Engineers. ~Um, ~better known at the time to some as Ostentatious Associates, but we won't,~ uh,~ go into that too much.

And I was,~ um,~ an office boy with them in 86, so if I was in the film industry, I think you'd probably call me a runner,~ um,~ so it's that kind of role. I made coffee for people, made tea, did all the outline printing, ran down the archives. Proper office boy sort of job. And I was doing that for a number of years at the same time as I was studying,~ uh,~ structural engineering.

~And, ~and it was an, a fun,~ well,~ totally different time. This is all obviously before [00:03:00] internet. ~Um, ~and I was basically learning to draw,~ um, or, ~or write. You had to write. ~Um, ~in a certain style before they allow you onto the drawing board. So that was ~kind of ~this natural progression that ~you, ~you ~kind of ~come off the archive run, you learn how to draw, then you get allowed to do a little bit of shading and slowly you decline the amount of print, ~you know, ~the prints that you're doing and the faxes you're sending.

And eventually you learn how to do some structural analysis and some structural design. And that was a beautiful sort of introduction to the ~Uh, ~in consulting engineering as a young man,~ um,~ you'd probably say as I was a kid and before,~ um,~ I guess the, it was just in my first recession, which was late eighties, early nineties, I ran away to,~ um,~ Jakarta in Indonesia.

So I was contacted by a friend called Henry Horphy going off on one of his. His brother was in line to become the king of Hungary, so if you ever get a, ~you know, ~Google the Horthy [00:04:00] family in, in, in Hungary. But he asked me, he said, Chris, do you fancy coming over to Jakarta? Arabs are setting up a new office in Jakarta.

I went, yeah, of course, yeah, I'd love to do that, Henry, that'd be amazing. But I didn't even know where Jakarta was at the time, so I bought myself a lonely planet,~ um,~ and I found out that Jakarta was in Indonesia, and I went out to work with Arabs. ~Um, ~for a number of years,~ um,~ we were, I was seconded to Bechtel, who were working for a Spanish company called Huarte, and Huarte were building a new town in Irian Jaya.

And for a company called Freeport, and Freeport are a copper and gold mining practice, and they were building a new town in Irianjaya, a town called Tambagapura, which was going to accommodate 20, 000, it did accommodate 25, 000 people. And as a young 20 year old, I was ushered into the role of looking after, I was Head of Structures on the client side, [00:05:00] Head of Infrastructure, so I was pushed into this role which was far beyond my years, and I lived in Jakarta doing that for From 91 to about the late 90s, just before the Asian recession, as head of structures in Tambagapura, working on this overspill for a gold and copper mine.

And if you can imagine Jakarta at the time, it was overpopulated, polluted, corrupt, awful, and it was just ideal for a young man from England in his early 20s. So that, that, that was my early years with. And then, just before the Asian recession kicked in,~ I,~ I'd like to say that I planned it, but I didn't. I just got lucky and I came back to the UK~ , ~um, and I worked,~ um,~ for a company called Dewhurst Macfarlane and they're probably better known by some in the market for doing lots of structural glass design work.

~So, ~they were the original people who [00:06:00] did all the glass Apple staircases, ~you know, ~when you go in to Apple and Covent Garden or wherever, you take your phone when it's broken. ~Um, ~and ~they, ~they were the original people who were engineering. ~So, it was, ~it was real pioneering time,~ um, in, ~in the late 90s, working with Joes MacFarlane. I then went off to ~Um, ~Dubai,~ uh,~ with my young family at the time,~ um,~ we will, and worked on the Jamiro Beach Residence, all those towers with the JBR, look like Hong Kong on the sea, but,~ uh,~ great projects,~ and,~ and also worked,~ um,~ on the Burj,~ so,~ we've, For a number of years with HIDAS before coming back to the UK, um, I went to work with Dewhurst Macfarlane again.

They tried to get me back. I went and worked there for a couple of years and that all ~kind of ~sums up my career in a real short period, but I then set up Symmetries,~ um,~ The next recession, or the next UK recession, which was in 2008,~ um,~ [00:07:00] so that kind of brings you to ~where, ~where we were with Symmetries. So Symmetries now, we've been, we're entering into our 18th year of trading.

Stephen Drew: ~well, ~well done. My goodness. So ~that's, ~that's, ~I mean, ~first of all, well done, 18 years. My business has been going two years, so there's another 16 to go. And I would love advice because ~as, ~as I'm sure ~you know, ~a business, it could change its adapts and all

Chris Atkins: ~Uh, ~yeah, I'd say year one ~was was, was, ~was great. ~You know, ~you're working off your coffee table,~ um, and, ~and you're earning some money. Year two, things start to happen on site, and year three can be really challenging. I'm sorry to say that to you,

Stephen Drew: Oh no.

Chris Atkins: you next year will be yourself one. But yeah, year five, somebody, one of my clients said, once you get to year five, you're established.

~So, uh,~

Stephen Drew: oh really? Okay. ~I'll, ~I'll,

Chris Atkins: being hard though.

Stephen Drew: okay. ~I'll, I'll, ~I'll hold onto that. So two of the three more to go and a painful 2024.

Chris Atkins: I think what I said about year three was it's a, you get to, ~you know, ~you start increasing in size and you get to a stage where you think,~ well,~ actually, I can't do all of this anymore. I [00:08:00] need to get more in, ~you know, ~so it's trying to get that balance of needing more people in the workload that you have.

Stephen Drew: That makes complete sense. ~Well, now, ~now that Symmetries has gone way past the fifth year and established, in your definition, and so for anyone that's not familiar with the work you do, can you ~kind of ~give an insight into the company then and your company's values?

Chris Atkins: ~You know,~ we, in January this year, we've recently become,~ um,~ an EOT, an Employer Ownership Trust. which has been ~kind of ~a hand in glove moment for us. It was a kind of natural progression of where we are or, ~you know, ~where we look to be. We're in the infancy, it's our first year, but it's part of our long term plan to ensure that Symmetries has a future.

It's creating this sort of ethos, and it also creates some stability and some security and ensures that the People, our staff are all of my colleagues, not [00:09:00] my staff anymore, but they remain at the heart of the business. So we've got some really, we're quite gifted in many ways. We've got some ~amazing,~ amazing people working here at Symmetries and what it's done is provided them with a platform.

As I say, we're in the infancy. ~So, I mean, ~it's January, we've been going a year, but it's really provided them with a platform that they feel that they can express themselves within the company. And that's ~kind of, ~that's been a, it's been a lovely experience. ~So, ~we've got a beautiful, diverse team, who've now got this voice,~ um,~ and I, would probably urge everybody who's in a similar position to what Symmetra's have been in, to consider that path, really.

Stephen Drew: yeah, fair enough. ~Well, ~it's impressive projects. And just before we talk about the projects, what I'd just love to hear from you, if it's quickly okay, is that ~on the, ~on the podcast, we get a lot of architectural and other professionals at different stages in their career. And for those. who may be earlier in their career, so an early [00:10:00] architectural assistant who's just becoming an industry, wants to become an architect.

In your words, Chris, what really then is the role of a structural or a civil engineer in terms of the design team, in terms of getting a building realized?

Chris Atkins: You could probably take it back to somebody who doesn't have a clue what structural engineers do. It's a conversation you have at a party in a kitchen, and someone says to you, I work in IT and you just ~kind of ~think, I didn't hear what you said. And if I get asked that question, I think the easiest way to describe it is.

We try to realize what an architect's dream is in many ways, so we will say that if an architect's got this desire, this amazing passion for a building, hopefully that's the case, we will try to make it stand up with maths and physics, we will try to make it stand up, so it's the foundations, the columns, the slabs, the beams that create this the building.

Stiff [00:11:00] structure that enables that structure to stand up, and in today's agenda, in the most sustainable way that we can possibly do that. And that's a conversation I will have with you in the kitchen at a Christmas party, to try and explain what we do.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. We were talking a little bit before we went live about the importance of that relationship between the architect, civil engineer, structural engineer, because it is very important to get that stuff

Chris Atkins: that, isn't it? It's really, it's that. And it's, I think we, we're all going to go on a, ~you know, ~a bumpy journey on some projects. And Steve, you might disagree with something I say on that journey, but it's the acknowledgement that we might not always see eye to eye, and this journey is going to be bumpy, but we, hopefully, we're going to get to the end,~ uh, you know.~

And it's understanding that those people's roles within that practice and not accuse you of doing something. It's no finger pointing, but going on that [00:12:00] journey together to try and create something beautiful. Should

Stephen Drew: it makes a lot of sense and you're right. Sometimes projects can be intense and sometimes there are difficult conversations. However, I'm sure when the building gets there in the end and it's realized and it's been used by the public, it's all ~kind of ~worth it. So on, on that note, I know you've done some beautiful projects.

I know the one in the thumbnail is very cool. ~Um, ~however, for the audience, if they haven't seen some of the projects you've got, what are you, do you typically work on, Chris? Is this the point where you'd like me to showcase some of your work on your

Chris Atkins: we do that? Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that. ~Um, ~so It's so diverse here at Symmetries, actually. It's, ~you know, ~it's ridiculous how diverse we can be. I've just skipped over one, but we kind of range from, that was the previous image, was Mr. Doodle's Factory, if anybody knows Mr. Doodle's, the artist, and we're doing ~his, ~his studio.

Down in Kent, we do,~ um,~ a series of [00:13:00] private homes. That's an image of an old reservoir, which we converted,~ um,~ into ~a, ~a new domestic property. This is the good,~ uh,~ the Gurdwara in Barking,~ um,~ which is an amazing,~ um,~ structure, actually. And it's been a real success story. Has to have very large open plan areas ~for, ~for prayer.

But that's been really well received in Barking. Oh, there's an image from the outside. ~So, ~yeah, that's been a lovely journey working on that project. ~Um, ~Linda at Pallet, this is,~ um,~ our civils team have been working on. ~So, you know, ~at Symmetry, ~we have, ~we have this dedicated civils team. We do some lovely,~ uh,~ work around sustainable drainage schemes, and we'll encourage that, and we have various links in our websites.

And to our approach to sustainable drainage, whether that be suds, blue roofs, green roofs, but please take a look at what we're doing there. This is a nice job, Roots in the Sky, big commercial project down Blackfriars Bridge in Southwark, but large [00:14:00] commercial, Burley House, another large commercial, Reefer.

We're doing a lot around this area. And then, ~you know, ~these niche architectural,~ um,~ private homes,~ we, we, ~we still do. Some of those, and, ~you know, ~realizing these architectural's amazing dreams of these beautiful houses that they're refurbishing. Schools, still do lots of schoolwork. This is, the hotel sector is very good for us at the moment.

This is a hotel that we did down in Low Marsh Streets, which is at the back of Waterloo. And the challenging thing on this project was actually keeping the tube lines down when we took the existing building off, because there was no longer any weight on top of it. ~So, ~yes, it looks great, but people very often don't see ~the, ~the ugly stuff that we've done in the ground.

This is a lovely job. ~Um, ~I'll probably talk about it in terms of what's coming up. This is Lindrick Paddock,~ um,~ that we did with Surgisson and Bates and was shortlisted for the Sterling Prize. We got nipped. ~We didn't, ~we didn't quite win, but,~ uh, it was, ~it was, ~you know, ~it's a delight to be. [00:15:00] To be shortlisted, um, and then it goes on to some of the work that we're doing around the Ferris Wheel, which I'll probably talk to you about in a minute, Steve.

Stephen Drew: Yeah,~ well,~ why don't we,~ well,~ are ~on that, ~on that theme, because, and now when you mentioned the Ferris wheel at first, I joked that the only Ferris wheel that I thought of was in the circus, ~you know, ~you go up and down it. However, the Ferris wheel that you've built,

Chris Atkins: It's a bit like, oh, you're thinking of a hamster, right?

Stephen Drew: ~Well, ~I didn't know at first because, ~you know, ~when I did confess before we went live, didn't we have my technical skill set wasn't the strongest back in the day.

However,

Chris Atkins: why would you? Why would you know what, ~you know, ~it's,~ uh,~ we come up with these great names for these things. But,~ uh,~ yeah, the Ferris Wheel's a,~ um,~ a tool that we've developed. ~We, ~we ~kind of ~alluded to the fact that. Everything that we do at Symmetris is sustainably driven. So everything that we get in, we will look at from the initial outset, whether we're employed at stage one, stage two, or hopefully stage zero,~ um,~ at a sustainable point of view.

~So, ~how can we contribute [00:16:00] to this positively? And what we've done is we've created a team of people at Symmetris who are dedicated to this, our sustainability team, and that might be research. ~Um, ~and it might be looking at different materials and the Fairness Wars. Form part of that. So what Ferris Wheel is, explains to you really simply, if I may, is Steve, you say,~ right,~ Chris, I want ~a, a new, ~a new steel shed, for example, and I'll say, okay, this is how I will design your steel shed with typical steel that you will buy off the shelf as we currently do. And what Ferris Wheel does, ~it's a ~it's a Revit model and it will replace,~ um,~ steel that's currently available in the market, reused steel work that's currently available in the market. And it will replace That's still within that model, and it's a Revit model. It's been a,~ uh,~ something that we've developed with our great friends at London [00:17:00] South Bank University.

~Um, ~we've developed it over a couple of years, and it was issued into the market, or it launched,~ um,~ about four weeks ago now, I think it was. And we've had,~ um,~ Simone in our office has done an amazing job with his relationship with London South Bank University. As has Nathan and one of our old colleagues, Matteo, who really drove this.

Unfortunately, Matteo is no longer with us, but he did a great job in driving this whole passion for sustainability within symmetries and Ferris wheel has been developed as part of that, really. So it's a tool that clicks onto Revit. I make this sound far simpler than it actually is, and it enables you to Look up alternatives, reuse steel, so you're not having to, this steel is currently available in the market, so ~you, ~you go and get this piece of steel and you put it into your building.

Stephen Drew: I

Chris Atkins: Does that make it, does that sound simple enough?

Stephen Drew: it does. It does. ~Um, ~where I was going to say, though, is that. ~The, ~the [00:18:00] topic of climate change, the environment, and our approach, it is a difficult, big, arduous topic. And I think that it's great that you're tackling it. Now I know that you're passionate about this topic in particular, Chris, and that one of the things that you're doing at Symmetry is quite, ~you know, ~frantically being very eco minded in your projects and opinions and part of your culture.

~Can you, ~can you expand a little bit about. What are your thoughts on that?

Chris Atkins: Yeah, for me, Steve,~ it's,~ it's about sharing. ~So, ~it's not something we can share. In five years time, I'm going to, ~you know, ~I'm going to share this with you. This is currently something that we're all in together. So ~it's, ~it's not, we're learning, we're all learning together. So we talk about ISJ and the various different. Catchphrases that are thrown around the market, but ~can you, ~can you hand on heart say you're actually doing something that's going to contribute to [00:19:00] reducing carbon? ~Um, ~and if you are doing something, let's contribute, share it. ~So, ~our point is. It's sharing our knowledge. We're going to go on this journey.

We're going to research it as we have done so with London South Bank University. And I think that there's real strength in this bit of kit that we've launched with them, the Ferris Wheel. It's got the boundary. We're nowhere near the boundaries of what this tool can potentially do. But we want people to engage with it.

We want other engineers to engage with it. What I think what people shouldn't be doing is doing some research, keeping it to themselves and keep, ~you know, ~it's something that ~let's, let's, ~let's talk about it. And the more we talk about it, the more knowledge we can gain,~ um,~ and it's gonna, and it's gonna, it's gonna help everybody.

But what you've got to be able to look very closely at yourself and say, are we actually contributing to reducing carbon? And if you can't do that, you need to change.

Stephen Drew: Well said. I [00:20:00] think it is important to talk about it. And I'm glad you're right. We shouldn't be silos. It should be sharing this information. ~So, ~the Ferris wheel in that regards is quite exciting. On that subject though, I'd love to know We talked about 2024 might be difficult for me next year because it's my third year of business.

However,

Chris Atkins: it won't be. I shouldn't have said that. I'm sure it won't

Stephen Drew: it's better to know what you're going into, Chris, so I appreciate it. However, it is an exciting time at the moment as well, and I would love to know, Chris, what you're looking forward to, maybe in the present and the future, and what's coming symmetry world.

Chris Atkins: Yeah,~ well,~ we've had a very exciting period,~ um,~ with the launch of the Ferris wheel, and I won't go back into detail of that. That's been a, as I say, the people who have been involved in that have worked with us. Just so incredibly hard to try and get that all out into the market and it's been a lot of sweat and guts and blood that's gone [00:21:00] into that so ~that that ~that's almost that feels like a little bit of a relief ~that ~that's gone out ~and ~and we will be letting the market know more about how the explainer videos if you like ~Um, ~not from a high level, but from a much more technical level.

We were delighted to be shortlisted, as I said, with the Sterling Prize. ~Um, ~we've researched and debated,~ that's, that's, ~that's been great. ~Um, ~and also we've just, we were shortlisted for, what were we shortlisted for? New Civil Engineer Awards, Best Practice. And then we were also shortlisted for Best Implementation of Change, some of the titles of these awards.

Quite a long window. So it's been an extremely interesting and fun time to be part of Symmetries. I think some of the challenges in the market are going to be quite interesting going forward, but at the moment,~ um,~ and I touched wood,~ um,~ things are looking very positive for here. ~You know,~ we're in a good position, but it's [00:22:00] about everything that Symmetries do.

It's about trying to create a culture that's On a Monday morning, you've got to come, want to get up in the morning and actually come to work. And if you can create that culture, provide a passion, ~you know, ~create a passion that you're unable to ~sort of ~fulfill, then I think the future is bright. A lot of that's going to be driven from ~our, our, ~our, the great people within Symmetries, really.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, brilliant. ~And, ~and just a quick note on that, because I'm, I always believe that practices which think of their employees first should be championed. And for any other companies that may be listening to this or thinking, Oh, I want to go to an employee on trust one day. Okay. That's a bit of a journey.

Like you said, it takes time. However, what would you get, would you give any little advice on first steps, Chris, in going in the right direction as ~you know, ~and which way to go?

Chris Atkins: I think ~do, do, ~do your research. ~Um, it, ~it, it's gotta ~work, ~work for you. Ask yourself the questions. What, why you ~want to ~want to do it. ~Is it,~ is it an ethos that you are trying [00:23:00] to create? Are you trying to make,~ um, you know, ~keep your staff, empower your,~ uh,~ staff or look after your colleagues so they have a voice? And I'd probably ask yourself the question, and read up on it, it wasn't something we came up with overnight, ~you know, ~I think we talked about it for a couple of years before we announced it earlier in the year, in January. ~So, ~and once you put your head above the parapet. In actual fact, there's a lot of,~ um, you'll, ~you'll find that you're in good company.

~There's a,~

Stephen Drew: Well said. Okay.

Chris Atkins: lot of people who have done this.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. ~It, ~it seems to me the work getting there, it tends to pay off. And I think it, the company and from the employee's perspective, ~it's a, ~it's a large improvement. ~Um, ~I had a different question, if you can indulge me, Chris, cause I know we're winding down a little bit as well. Now this year, everyone's been.

Talking about AI and architecture. Will it take over our jobs? Will it help [00:24:00] things out? What's going to happen? And I would just love your anecdotal thoughts on, as in terms of civils and structure,~ um,~ do you see AI starting to bleed into the work,~ um,~ so far, or do you have any predictions where it might go or opinions that you would share?

Be whatever they may.

Chris Atkins: yeah, AI,~ great,~ great question. ~Um, ~there was a podcast from Steve Bartlett,~ um,~ and he had the man who was talking about happiness. And he was talking about the fact that if we click onto negativity ~You know, ~you're on social media, you click on something that's not very nice, AI will pick up on that and send you more negativity.

This isn't an answer to your question about structural and civil engineering. But it made me think, and his point of view was to try and, if you click on a, ~you know, ~something on social media that's positive, AI will pick up on that and create more positive, because AI is going to just continue to generate. And whatever it [00:25:00] wishes to generate is what you've put into it, to a certain degree. When it comes to structure and civil engineering, ~it's already, it's already, ~it's already moving. Yeah,~ so, you know, ~there's this. And we're using it to, ~in some, ~in some aspects of the work that we're doing here at Symmetries,~ um,~ not so much technically at the moment, I would say, but it is something that in terms of report writing and, ~you know, you go, ~you go out and have a look at a site and people are developing reports.

on the tube on the way home, ~you know, ~so I wouldn't suggest you do that ~on your, ~on your Brompton on the way home, but,~ uh,~ it's already being implemented. It's something that's going to come.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, but yeah, fair enough. ~I mean, ~I do use

Chris Atkins: have got a new song coming out with it, which is AI Generator, haven't they?

Stephen Drew: That's right. Yeah, it's ~kind of, it's, it's, ~it's gradually going everywhere. Many people don't know, but the first iterations of AI we've had for ages, and that actually used to be sports articles because they're very factual, ~you know, ~it's about what happened. And that [00:26:00] used to be AI long before in 2023, I think we hear the words chat GPT, and suddenly everyone woke up and freaked out.

And I always. ~And, ~and you tell me if you agree with this or not, but I find it very useful in my business to remove the mundane stuff. It doesn't necessarily mean I can do, ~I guess, ~the design decisions or business decisions that ultimately still relies on me. However, the little arduous tasks, which we have to do day to day, I think ~that ~that's a really good case.

For AI, just to ~kind of ~knock up or rephrase or summarize stuff that you manually put in, is that, do you feel the same on that way or different?

Chris Atkins: I think so. I think you'll probably find that 80 percent of engineers are dyslexic and it certainly helps from that point of view. ~You know, we, ~we went into engineering because we were probably gravitating towards math, physics and chemistry. ~So, ~if it can help us from that point of view, so we're not sitting on a beech tree having a few bears, [00:27:00] we'll be delighted.

Stephen Drew: fair enough. ~Um, ~I had one other question before we wind down. ~Um, ~if that is really, if that's okay with you, because a lot of architecture students watch this, but also other kind of graduates as well. ~And, ~and there's a potential that someone searches this, is interested to work at Symmetry and, ~you know, ~or is a young.

Graduate, Structural, or Civil Engineer. You mentioned at the start of yourself early in your career, but let's pretend you were graduating now or getting a job in the industry. How, was there any advice that you would give someone in the profession today, starting today?

Chris Atkins: ~Um, ~be prepared for a bumpy journey. ~Um, ~if you look at the line graph of,~ um,~ certainly my career,~ and,~ and ~I, I, ~I talk lots about recessions and bumps, and ~if you, ~if you want a straight line, become a doctor, because you'll always have clients coming through the door. ~Um. ~What you won't get as being a doctor is the reward of seeing something being created that you've designed.

And nothing beats that,

Stephen Drew: ~Right. ~Okay.

Chris Atkins: I'm sure [00:28:00] that's given you advice, but it is something to certainly consider when you're looking at your career. Think about you're going to get, it's hellishly rewarding, but the journey's bumpy sometimes.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. ~Well, ~I agree. It's good to know you're getting into that. ~Um, and, ~and I appreciate, I think people will appreciate the candor,~ um, in, ~in the answer. ~So, ~thank you, Chris. I really appreciate that. Now, before we tell everyone where we can find your stuff yet again, I always like to ask my guests if you have any questions for me.

I don't know if you do about architecture. Could be about the state of the industry, could be about AI, could be about the architecture social, whatever comes into your head. Do you have any questions for me, Chris, that you'd like to fire over?

Chris Atkins: ~So, ~so why, Steve,~ I, I, ~I had done some reading on you. So you came, not, ~all good, ~all good. ~So, ~so you decided to come out of architecture.

Stephen Drew: I know. Yes, Chris, I fell out. So I liked architecture as a profession, that's why I'm still involved in it now, however, [00:29:00] I was the cheeky chap in the office, so where I was EPR Architects, they had free kitchens, Chris, and I would constantly be running around in between all the kitchens, and I managed to be like, oh God, which kitchen is Stephen in now?

And you know what? It was a great profession. I just didn't feel comfortable. The need,~ um, I didn't, ~I didn't have the same desire or the same pull ~that my, that my, ~that my friends had to do their part three. And what I learned during that now, I fell into recruitment. My goodness, no one plans to do it, but it's the truth.

However. ~In that, ~in that world, I wanted to try and do something of some value, and in a way, what I felt is that the Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 typical traditional architecture route, while it's amazing for some, I just didn't fit in, and what's quite nice now that there's the different alternative careers and all this stuff, so that's me in a nutshell, I wouldn't put me on drawings, I don't know Revit, I got the training, basic training from 2014, but I was a [00:30:00] MicroStation guy.

Chris Dunno, you've, I dunno if you used MicroStation before, but that's my generation. But now it's quite nice to learn more about companies like yourself, what they're doing and projects, responsibility, all this stuff. And I get to talk online. ~So, ~I was in the kitchen, now I'm talking on LinkedIn. But yeah, that's me in a nutshell.

~Um, do you think, ~do you think I'd have a chance at Symmetries?

Chris Atkins: Yeah, I'm sure you'd fit in somewhere.

Stephen Drew: Oh, you said no at the start. I, don't worry, I can take it, it's okay, it's fine.

Chris Atkins: ~we, we, ~we always need somebody in the kitchen.

Stephen Drew: There you go. But once you invite,

Chris Atkins: maybe you're our man

Stephen Drew: ~well, ~maybe, yeah, but once you invite me and you can't get rid of me. I'm that person. He like, he needs to leave. ~You know, ~he needs to leave and you'd be like, I'll tell him tomorrow, but

Chris Atkins: It's the weekend. ~You need to, ~you need to come out now.

Stephen Drew: we do. We do. ~Well, ~listen, I really appreciate you being here and giving us that overview.

It sounds really exciting. People should check out all your stuff. Can you tell us, Chris, one more time, [00:31:00] if people want to reach out to you, learn more about what you've talked about or learn more about the company, all that stuff. Where should people find you online?

Chris Atkins: Go to, so think of symmetrical and put an S on the end, symmetries,~ uh,~ www.symmetries.com. So put think of symmetry and put an S on the end. Have a look at some of the great work we're doing.

Stephen Drew: Cool. ~Well ~it is some beautiful stuff. Thank you so much, Chris. I really appreciate you being here. Now stay on the stage for one second, Chris, when I took before, I'm just gonna say quickly goodbye to the guests and turn off the live stream. So thank you Chris. I appreciate you being here and for you in the audience, whether you are live on your lunch break or you are watching the replay, 'cause I know what it is.

You are all busy. I get it. I've done it myself. We really appreciate you being here. Thank you to Chris for sharing a bit more about civils and structure because ~you know, ~as architects, we're going to be working with different people. So it's good to know how to improve that relationship or [00:32:00] what the heck they do.

~Right. ~Cause when I was a part one, I didn't know myself. So I hope this is useful. I've got more content coming next week. I can't remember what it is, but it looked pretty good. So there's some surprise stuff coming. And,~ um,~ on that note, I'm going to end the live stream. Thank you so much. Take care, everyone, and see you soon.

Take care. Bye bye now.

Chris Atkins: Had a good weekend.