Navigating Business Development and Marketing in Architecture with Alicia Yau

0037 - Navigating Business Development and Marketing in Architecture with Alicia Yau
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Stephen Drew from the Architecture Social, and I am here with a guest, a dear old friend and colleague, Alicia Yao, who is currently at the Brunswick Group, Alicia. How are you today? Are you okay?

Alicia Yau: I'm good. Thank you, Stephen. Thanks for having me on your podcast.

Stephen Drew: No worries. This is so formal, isn't it?

When you think about it we've actually worked for many years in the office together. You know exactly what I'm like. I do. So yeah, hopefully not terrible, right?

Alicia Yau: No, it was really fun working with you and I love your dog. The dog was, employed. Oh

Stephen Drew: yeah.

Alicia Yau: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Oh, Dexter. Dexter's still doing well.

He's in Wales right now, but he's actually in the Welsh lockdown, Alicia, technically. So I can't see him for two weeks. Crazy, huh? [00:01:00] Crazy world we're living in right now. With the lockdowns, everything. It's

Alicia Yau: fine in Hong Kong, but I don't know about the UK, but things are less crazy over here in Asia. I've got to say.

Stephen Drew: That's true. So for anyone listening, this is the first time that they've been introduced to you. So Alicia, maybe you can run through, because actually you're currently in Hong Kong now, but for us to work together. You were in London. So in terms of what you do currently, you're involved in marketing and communications and that in the field of architecture, that's your specialty, but perhaps we can rewind.

So I'm going to get my little, see that's like the balance of history past. We're going to go all the way back. Do you want to tell me when you were studying architecture, maybe that's a good point to start from.

Alicia Yau: Yeah, sure. So I studied architecture at part one level. And I graduated from Westminster in 2014.

I think I knew back then when I was in probably second year that I don't want to become an [00:02:00] architect. And there were multiple reasons that led me to this decision. Mainly being that the degree is bloody long, but I've also, there were financial constraints. And also I looked a little bit beyond the career of being an architect.

And I realized there was a whole sort of other world out there that I was quite interested in doing, which is actually the business of architecture.

Stephen Drew: Great. Wow. That sounds so far. It's true. The business of architecture, there are so many facets to architecture and I actually have one or two guests on.

And I think the important thing is, yes, I love architecture. You love architecture as well. You don't necessarily have to be in life when you're studying. You don't have to be an architect if you want to. Fantastic. Great. We support that. There's so many really good architects, but the point is you can work indirectly in architecture.

You can still contribute to architecture and do something different. So you felt that way. Now you did work in industry, didn't you? As a part one. And I've heard all the stories about your structural models and so forth. Maybe for the [00:03:00] gang and the crowd, you can expand upon where you worked.

Alicia Yau: Yeah, sure.

So I went and did several internships during my degree and when I did my year out I interned at a structural engineering practice in London to get some sort of real life experience and, and also across a couple of different firms in London are really big projects, commercial, residential projects going on.

And I I think that's when I really sparked my interest in the business of architecture because. There was actually many teams of people coming together. There were like the structure engineers. There were the architect. There was the people on site, the construction guys and the MEP guys. And then we all sat down together in meetings, something for me just clicked right there.

And I thought that was really interesting. And I think that was the most interesting part of the degree that I had to do. It wasn't actually designing the buildings itself, but actually rather. working and managing the relationship between the different teams and different [00:04:00] voices in a project.

Stephen Drew: Makes sense.

So you were at the structure. So there was one or two links before we met as well. So I seem to remember my fuzzy memory because I'm. It's been a few years now. I'm not quite 19 anymore. What am I now? 24, 25, Alicia? I'm still quite young, right?

Alicia Yau: Exactly. No,

Stephen Drew: I'm 33. I am way past 23. But I seem to remember, because we, when we met, so it's important for context is that I was running at the time, I was one of the directors of a new architectural recruitment company.

So I just spoke, we were doing well, but it was very, and you remember more than anything, we were in a shared office. It was the funnel and the energy of a startup and the, maybe the highs and lows of a startup as in, it was fun. It was cool. But for context, we will work. And do you remember there was a tailor in the car and we had markets in people, do you remember what was [00:05:00] that place called in Clark?

And we were at. Whoa, it was

Alicia Yau: Chantry Lane Station, Hatton Gardens. It was right in the middle of Hatton Gardens. It was in a sort of, within a courtyard of a courtyard it was a courtyard. And it was a shared space. Yeah, it was very raw. sort of studios, very start up tea because, shared office was still such a new concept back then.

But obviously where, we work has gone down, in flames and will, in different ways, but it was really fun. Yeah,

Stephen Drew: it was fun. Beg to, I worry how much from computer plugs we had on the few sockets that I always read, like sometimes we nearly wake up in sweats and just think we are going to burn.

You had some amazing, do you remember we had the L the quite senior what you call it? The ex jeweler, the guy who is in the corner. And his wife wanted him to have a hobby, so he had his own business. So he'd come into the office, potter around for half an hour, and fall asleep. [00:06:00] Do you remember that guy?

Alicia Yau: Yeah, he was just always doing his own thing. I actually, we were there for quite a long time and I just couldn't quite figure out what he was actually doing most of the time until you actually told me that he runs a jewellery business.

Stephen Drew: That's right. So the point is, so we were So put it in context and that's the crazy thing.

So you went from, professional offices and then you joined us at Shape Careers. And it's probably important to mention. So that was a quite a bold step as well, actually, at the time, wasn't it? Because you were moving away from your internship and at Shape Careers, the role was as an architectural recruitment consultant.

At first, what kind of appeal to you about working in recruitment?

Alicia Yau: I think the appeal was that you were able to speak to people of really diverse backgrounds because in the recruitment role, we recruited for basically every role that was involved in an architecture practice. So also the business support side not just architects.

And you actually get to [00:07:00] understand what everyone was really doing, which is not something that they actually taught you at architecture school, like how the whole business come together. And during my time there, when I was recruiting for a lot of the business support roles was actually speaking to a lot of the marketing managers.

That sort of planted a seed for me. And I was just, I was looking at the CV and I thought, wow, what they're doing is actually, enormously interesting. And you make sense of how an architecture practice is formulated, is structured, how, why you don't just, if you just, if I just carried on, did my part three and just became an architect, that would be all that I knew in the world.

So I think recruitment offered me like a different insight into the industry that I hadn't really even. Thoughts about before it was when I had, when I was working in recruitment I had an inkling it wasn't quite what I want to do in the end, but then it opened up this array of opportunity for me that I'm really thankful for, I think if I hadn't had done this, I wouldn't be doing.

And working at, an [00:08:00] amazing, PR firm right now and for the past five years.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, that's really interesting to talk about. And we'll go into that a little bit because as as well, what's quite interesting about recruitment is that nine times out of 10, the process behind the scenes is incredibly stressful and it's not for everyone else.

And you've literally, sometimes you've got to bang the gun. It really isn't a job for everyone. And you are actually I would argue that you are probably our best recruitment consultant, but doesn't necessarily mean in life that you have to do it forever. And we've got a few good stories about that as well, but it is a, definitely a stressful job.

What I do think where iTWO, where it can work out for people is I think you have to be a little bit outgoing and you have to completely, you have to be someone that can keep on going because. It can be a tough job, but let's talk about that briefly. I agree that actually what is interesting about the recruitment is that, [00:09:00] yeah, you do see behind the scenes, don't you?

And it is quite interesting to speak to directors on a strategic level and kind of advise them on possibility of who can join. The company who would be a good valuable resource. So definitely a lot of skills there. So at one point in time you then handed me your notice, didn't you? Unbelievable. Get out of the office.

Get out. No, actually there was no shouting. There's no nothing. I completely understood. But yeah, you were like it's not for me. And so at the time you did have a marketing opportunity. Is that right?

Alicia Yau: Yeah you mean the role I was recruiting for, or the people that I met?

Stephen Drew: At the time, you found another job, and you said, Shape Careers, Stephen Drew, C'est la vie, I am moving on to

Alicia Yau: marketing.

Yeah, so I threw my CV out there. I was just, the blind, I had to start again, I had to start from ground zero, I was just, I have no excuse. But then I realized that, to really cut it, really cut it in the profession, you have to work in a professional services [00:10:00] communications PR firm, you have to actually learn your trade.

And then I threw my CV out there and no response, month one, month two, and then it was like going, Oh no, this is the end for me. I should just go back and just do my part two, it was almost. going to give up. And then I landed a job with Carroll Communications.

They're based in London. And they actually were a PR firm that specialized in architecture and design. So then we found, yeah, we found like a like a resonance with each other and it just started then it just gave me a chance and then said, okay, let's see what you can do, a lot of architecture, you studied it, you spent, you had the humility to spend three years doing it at part one.

So let's transform that into something that it's workable, for what we do as communications and PR consultants.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Alicia Yau: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Let's go into that then. Because obviously when you move away, and it's the same a little bit like recruitment. I remember when I was a part [00:11:00] one and then a part two at EPR, I left after two years at EPR to go into recruitment.

And it was, there was that moment I remember when I was going into the job and I was psyched up to do it. And it was literally a case of, okay, great. Here's the phone. Here's the desk. Go on. And you're like, um, okay, I'll just load up Outlook and breathe, and it's I remember there's that daunting thing and you were, because I think where you were good as well as that.

In your previous one or two of your roles, you were involved a bit of networking and that kind of aspect. So you were good at that, recruitment can be scary for other people. But in terms of marketing, let's talk about that. So you literally got there on day one of marketing and you're like I'm going to market.

Architecture. Okay. Okay. So what do you, any tips for anyone out there? How do you ease into it? Or how did you get your head around the adjustments? And what did you do [00:12:00] first maybe?

Alicia Yau: I think it's actually to find what you, before you sort PR. I think you've got to think about what the role actually requires.

And luckily for me, I really enjoy creative writing. That was my strong suit. I love writing and I was just like I'm going to, I'm going to try and make a job out of this. And then I realized that actually the PR and communication sector need people who write, who are very strong writers and people who are not afraid to just stand up and give a presentation, people who are very outgoing.

And I think you've got to get very uncomfortable before you start to get comfortable. And although it was quite difficult, to get higher than the start, I think you've got to, if you find that thing that you really like, which is creative writing for me, and I really stuck with it, and I just wrote a load of stuff, attach my samples with it and be like, I can do this, and I think it's important for you to understand.

The dynamics of the relationship in the industry, understand who, if, especially if you work in a PR firm that advises [00:13:00] architecture and design professionals, I think you need to get behind their mindset and understand what they are worried about. They worried about getting projects.

They worry about their reputation. They worried about. their clients who are most of the time developers. Then you start to think about, the whole relationship with the game and start building up your own network. I think a big part of it is actually start building up the network with not just your direct clients, your architects, but also your network with the developers, their clients, which also naturally became, we when I was working in communications in London, quite a lot of my clients, even now, Quite a lot of them actually developers in the architecture tray, you would say the client side.

So I would say 60 40 right now my, my network is in property development rather than in architecture, but it's always, yeah, you need to keep up with it. You need to keep up with what your clients are worried about and be extremely knowledgeable about what. They know. So even if you moved a bit away from [00:14:00] industry always keep up with your knowledge with it so that you don't end up just being in this sort of PR marketing communications world.

And you just forgot all about architecture because when you work in an office. In a communications firm, you work with people who are not from sector at all. You might work in a really large where I'm working, I was a very huge, PR agency. It's a very international communications firm.

You've got people that work in different sectors, like oil and gas. They work for MNCs, like multinational corporations. You work with people that work to like Kellogg's. You're like, dude, I can't. Have a conversation with that person, but then they might be able to help you someday. So you got to be, you got to throw yourself out there like baptism by fire almost.

Cause they, they might just become quite useful to you and your clients. That's how I got, when I first got that, I understood that very quickly and just threw myself in there. There'll be people that tell you, be like, no, Alicia, no. Like it's just not how we do things, but that's just a mistake that you have to make.

You just have to be [00:15:00] uncomfortable with it until you can navigate the landscape.

Stephen Drew: Very interesting. It's probably worth getting the distinction as well for the audience as well, because you've gone into marketing communications. What you're talking about is working in terms of an agency and the term agency or multinational marketing company.

The point is you work with external clients, right? So it's a little bit closer to recruitment. Whereas I can work with a company like Bostons and Partners, RRD, Skidmore and Merrill and Heatherwick. And they come to me with a problem and say Steve, we need a BIM guru to solve all the problems that we're having with Revit right now.

In terms of your role, it's a similar in that way, right? As in, so carrier communications, which you touched upon briefly. So that one's In the UK, that's a firm focused more towards architecture. So what typically happens, would it be that a client and we're not being specific now, but we've just been [00:16:00] hypothetically like, so I'm Steven Drew architects and I go I don't have any time to do marketing.

I've got an upcoming project, I hire Carol Communications. And then in Cairo Communications, you would be the account manager for Steve and Drew Architects. Is that roughly right?

Alicia Yau: Yeah, that's roughly right. So you would, typically, I would have six or seven, different clients going on, and you'll be dealing with everything that is the outgoing communications.

So anything that's that is like word images that touches the public that is outgoing. Okay. We'll probably have to run through me or one of my colleagues within the firm that advises on the account. And you would work in a sort of tech team in that way. And you, I think you have to develop quite good skills in sort of time management as to how much time, because I think a lot of communications firm that, we work in a way that is almost like lawyers.

We do time sheets. [00:17:00] And and those are like, you have your billable hours. And it's very organized in that way. So your time's money first of all, and you, and also when you get to a bit more senior level, when you've got to go out there and get clients, you've got to understand how much are these clients demanding?

Is Stephen Drew architect going to suck all my time away and not pay any fees? Hypothetically, that's something you have to think about as a small senior. and also manage people. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Excuse me. You think Stephen Drew Architects would do that? How dare you slander me on my podcast, my fake architects practice.

No, I get it. I get your point. And it's true. It's a bit like that in architecture, actually, isn't it? You think about it, that all the directors, I remember doing the time sheets is in theory, it's billable hours. Of course, there's certain areas when you're winning work and that's where, and in terms of recruitment as well, a lot of problems happen.

And that's what I would say is that, and we can share about that. And let's talk about that briefly, because what happens in the business of recruitment, as Alicia, is [00:18:00] that where you can get a role on and there's basically there can be several different recruitment companies going for a role.

And the way it works is that there's a fee in the end after delivering the person. So what you have is this fight or this struggle. To find the quickest CV first and whack out the work. And the point is that when you have a business model structure like that, I think you don't get the best results.

I think that actually, if you engage one recruitment consultant. That you chose because you believe in them to do a job and maybe you pay a little bit of deposit up front, but you have them on retainer, then that person's accountable. You can always get rid of that person if they're not delivering. But the point is, it's a bit like what you're talking about.

There's at least there's a solid relationship. And what I like from what you're talking about is actually, it can sound for, if you've not heard it before, it can almost sound a bit harsh. Like I've got to make sure people don't [00:19:00] suck up my time and stuff. But the point is. What you're saying is you work very hard, very seriously for clients who, uh, how was the word I'm looking for motivated though they're serious themselves, right?

So they want to get it out. They have a project. They were at that as value and you say I'm going to come in. Kick ass on this project. I'm gonna write up all about your amazing bendy building in the sky. It's the best tower It's the 200 units. It's gonna be da and so you do all that and you package it up But that's the real world really isn't it?

That's You almost have to be like that to have a successful business. And that's the point, isn't it?

Alicia Yau: Yeah, absolutely. And I think understanding how that works and your, whether you're an architect or, you run other businesses is important to understand that cycle and have a sort of strategy as to how you approach it because you'd be quite surprised as to how [00:20:00] little people and a lot of people who run architectural practices lack that sort of awareness.

Because they are just so busy doing that one thing that everything else is just forced on a wayside. And then, they don't capture the moment when they actually need to be. And for us working in communications, it's also, not just for your personal development, but not just to build up your client network, but also to buffer and be nice in the relationship with media, with people that, people that are Wayne Wright in the Guardian and Edwin Heathcote who criticizes architecture and, maintaining that ongoing relationship because.

People who work in writing about architecture internationally is a very small circuit. So you always need to keep that up. So it's not like a constant Oh, I won the client account and that's it. You also got to, win. Relationship with journalists, you've got to win relationship with other stakeholders and keeping a lot of things in, hanging in always, in good balance.

So like [00:21:00] working on client accounts, just cause you're billing hours doesn't mean that things that you can't charge for oh, I'm going to meet a journalist. I'm maintaining the relationship. I'm spending all this expenses, taking out them for lunch and so forth, doing events and so forth that, those are like the other side that is unaccounted for, on the balance sheet that you actually got to think about.

I think, I would advise that even if you're working you know, a sole practitioner as an architect or you work in a, a, an architect within a larger practice, it's always good to just be aware of your surroundings and make sure that, those are things that are in the balance, not just, you could be like such an amazing architect, but then, if you don't do all those other things, it's really hard to when the chips are down like COVID right now.

then, where does all your other leads come in? So you always got to keep, that energy, I think, which is really hard. I find a lot of people feel a bit burned out by that, but it's good to keep up with the energy and make sure that you always, you always almost like looking for the next thing.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree. There's a lot of things [00:22:00] that because what we talk about is, so while I worked in. Recruitment associate Chris, as so recruitment business and, what I do right now is a little bit different as in it's a bigger company and I run internally the architectural recruitment team on there, but it's exactly the same lessons you're talking about that in terms of running a business and what I would say that I've learned is there's synergies of what you're talking about in marketing, the synergies talking about what In terms of recruitment and in terms of architecture.

And the one thing that I definitely believe is that when the fees charged to the client and architecture are too low, basically that's where all the problems come in my experience, right? Because if the fees are too low, and what I'm on about is the fee to the developer, right? So if you're Mr.

Architect and you have your business out there, and you're charging, I don't know, I'm making these numbers up. Let's say it's 8 percent for the project, the whole cost for that stage, and you [00:23:00] charge 6%. This is where the problems come, because suddenly, you haven't got money really to do a really good marketing budget, so you end up bodging it yourself because you can't afford it.

Then you want to do recruitment, and you can't hire good recruitment consultants because you don't have the fee there. And therefore, because the fees are lower. You can't put more people to work on the project. So then they work crazy hours and get burnt out. And it's this reciprocal cycle of doom.

And what I mean by that is because people then work long hours, what happens? They leave and then you need to find someone else, which then you need me, but you don't have the money for me. And by the whole time is then the marketing budget goes down and down. So I think it's an important mess everywhere else that what you're talking about in terms of charging clients and what I've learned in terms of architectural recruitment, I've not just saying I will do the lowest fee because now what I'll say is I will work [00:24:00] whatever fee you want, but you will get a restricted service.

If we can't do it at a certain fee, I can't meet candidates. I just can't, I can't rack up the, as you said, the time versus the money for the output. And I think it's the same in marketing. In theory, you can have a very small marketing budget, but it doesn't mean you can do much in terms of that.

And that's the point. I think that it it unfortunately What I've learned in life, it all comes down to making sure at the start that you stay strong with your fee and you you go in there believing in yourself, believing in our fee. But if you get that agreement with the client of a fee, which gives you a bit of wiggle room, then actually what that means is you get the best architecture from it because you can, in my opinion, you've got way more.

If a disaster pops up, it's in budget. You've got more people to work on the role. You can get more marketing. You can pay for little blips in the road like [00:25:00] it's people you need recruitment you can pay for recruitment you can do all this stuff you can have extra people on the team so that's what i've learned but what's your thoughts about that

Alicia Yau: i agree i think architects not all architects i think it's just architects that i have come across and have worked with i think they're really terrible at negotiating fees if you ask me they're being too nice about it And I think, I don't hear this just from my side of my observation of architects.

I hear this even from the client side of developers saying, these people are just not charging enough fees. Now if you compare to the fees model that law firms charge, and then what we charge in architecture, it just is not the same thing. Not in terms of prize because obviously you pay, lawyers get paid an insane sum of money to do, to do things, but then at the same time, if you look at the top sort of the top law firms, the magic circle law firms, because [00:26:00] their offering is so similar that they are industry wide, their fees are capped.

They're only going to get paid this amount, right? But in architecture, we don't do the same thing. No practice do the same thing as the other person. So I think this is your point of difference. I think this actually puts a lot on your arsenal and say, I need to have more fees because if you're asking me to do this project, it only makes sense if we have enough people to do the right job.

We need to hire enough people to do the right job. And that if the client. When you ask for the fees, it's almost we need a marketing budget with this. In order, you've gone to all that length, you spent seven years building this thing and then you don't tell the world about it because then your money ran short.

That's just, that just sounds insane to me.

Stephen Drew: I think you're, I think you're right. And it's a lesson, but what you're talking about, this lesson doesn't, it's not even specific about architecture. I think this is a good life [00:27:00] lesson. I think this is about what you're worth because I remember in terms of shaped careers. That we would work on lower fees.

And the problem is once you've established a low fee, it's really hard to get up from that because then in the client's mind, they're like, Oh I know you went for 4 percent before. So we're going to do that. Oh, what have you. And so you've got to be strong. And I remember becoming to McDonald company and going thinking I know this client will work at a certain fee.

And what I've learned now is sometimes it's the power of saying no. Which is so hard at first, okay, and what I'm on about now, and we can have a giggle, there's a few clients, Alicia, that we've actually worked with at Shaped Careers, and I've just said I can't work with them anymore because of a theme.

And it's not because you want to, it's because I, it's just having the foresight to go, if I start working at a theme, Which is low in architecture. So architectural recruitment, just for anyone listening, because I think there's no point in being all, oh, we [00:28:00] can't talk about behind the scenes, let's be realistic.

You know the score, that there's actually, for introducing someone to an architectural practice, the way the current business model goes, is that you probably get, what, between 15 to 20 percent of their annual salary. That is what the fee is. And anyone that's kind of, Cause you know what I'm on about?

Everyone's Oh, we can't talk about behind the scenes. I'm like, no, let's talk about behind the scenes because that is how recruitment works is that there is an introduction fee based upon the annual salary. Now, my point is instead of working on the industry standard, which is between 15 and 20%, if it's not 10%, then what that does is that I can quote unquote still work it.

But then really what happens is. I don't spend much attention on the role and therefore the client gets a CV that might go into my inbox where I've spoken to someone briefly and that, and you can't really expect that. Whereas when you go into a higher fee, what that enables me to do is to actually take a bit of time, [00:29:00] go and make a search, go out and find that people who are genuinely.

Have reasons to move shortlist the right people and present four or five solutions talking about a person. Number one, who's in this current situation, and then maybe they've got a wife or kids and they're ready to move. They've been burned in the midnight oil. They want to find somewhere different.

And you've got that case and you've got, and then you've got. Arctic B who maybe the community has been too long for a period of time, and they look into kind of wind down. And so you get all these different reasons and you go out there, but I imagine this is exactly the same in marketing as in, so what you're talking about marketing, maybe it could be a campaign for a building, could be a proposal, imagine like the shard is getting the branding out there and going to town on it and all this.

stuff or a few other towers as well. Prominent towers in London or what have you. But if the budget isn't there for marketing, you're like we can whack up one narrative, but we can't go the [00:30:00] town on like getting the name out there. We can't ring up the journalists. We can't ring up BD building design.

We can't ring up. I don't know. Even in standard, we can't go about that. We can't write bespoke things. And then suddenly what we're on about is that the effect of it. They're like diminishes and it's just, but it's the same thing in architecture of if the fees are low, what will happen is you will be feel pressured.

You feel up against the wall and the chances are mistakes can go out on buildings. The whole thing about Grenfell and don't worry if any architectural practices are listed, you're doing a good job. We're talking about how you can do, get things better, how fight for your worth. That's what we're on about.

Cause Grenfell. Tower came all about in my opinion, and I'm not researching as much as many people, but to me, I think Grenfell tower is an example of people under pressure and budgets being cut. And then unfortunately people died in the end, which is awful [00:31:00] because I think that there's, I think there's a creeping trend where with lower fees, money constraints.

with liability goes up and I reckon half the people who my voices go in there sound really croaky, but I reckon half the people on Grenfell that probably had some good intentions. I don't think anyone was maliciously like cutting things out for a laugh, but I reckon half of it comes down to a lack of.

Budget.

Alicia Yau: Yeah, I think quite, quite a large what are the findings? I think you would, if you really read into it, I think it's, it is actually that there were a lot of dishonesty. I think it's a mixture of budget, dishonesty, people who just want to cut corners. And when they cut corners, it means.

that we want to save a bit of money and it came back to the same that one thing. But I think obviously, but that's a public project as well. So I think, a lot of different things at play, there's a lot, there's, there was just a lot of dishonesty and, Irresponsibility, shifting the blame, right?

But then it all came down to budget in the end. And [00:32:00] I think that, the lesson is that I think tradition, we always complain about fees in architecture that we don't charge a client enough and why, I think, the conversation needs to change because.

We worked the longest hours in architecture and we got paid like the least, it's just one of my friends who works at I think she was at Flanagan Lawrence. And she said, Oh my God anything pays better than architecture. It shouldn't really be that way. I don't think it can, it should go on like that, to be in that way.

And, there's only one thing that we can do to change is actually just to ask for it because just from working in PR marketing we, when we built, the way that we built bill our clients as well, I'm just looking at the fees and compare it to how architects build their fees and how much, that they make, it's just they just don't pay architect enough, obviously, because how can that, we only work one aspect of the business that we charge more.

Over course of five year period in, in, in fees, purely fees that, the architecture [00:33:00] practice when they deliver a project that don't even come up close to that. So I think we, we need to get better at negotiations. I think most of the people that I've, who are associates at practices, they're quite shy.

At going about the numbers and arguing the numbers. I think they're being too polite about it. I think it's just time that we get a little bit less polite in my view. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: And this is it. There's a few things there because I actually, I work for Panic and Lawrence. They're a good company, right?

But the point you're going on is that if if for instance, all the really good architectural practices are struggling, then. In terms of fees, then it suggests to me that we need to push it higher. What I will sympathize, and I do feel though, that the poor old architects sometimes, we know how hard they work, they're doing all the details, they're doing all the crazy things.

And what we're saying And just when I paraphrase this, because if anyone's listening and you work in architecture, are you running it? I don't want you to feel negative about you, you've you can't do fees. And you, what we're talking about [00:34:00] is look at all the amazing stuff you've done. Look at the fact that you're running businesses.

Look at the fact that you're in architecture, you're on a team. What we're saying is fight for your worth. Just remember all the amazing stuff that architects do and stay strong with your feet. And flip it around. When you speak into the climate developer, it's what I always throw it, it's exactly like the way I like to think in terms of when you ask for a salary.

You're like, look, I'm on this salary now, I'm on 35, I believe I'm worth 38. I've just delivered a project. And the point is, if you put me on 38, 000 pounds, I'm gonna be highly motivated in the next project to take on more responsibility. I know I can do a better job. I think I did a good job before.

Give me 38, 000. I can take ownership. I'm not going to go anywhere. And therefore I'm going to work my hardest and deliver an excellent building. Are you happy with that? So if you go into a salary review with that attitude, or if you say to the [00:35:00] client, look, I can do 4%, but if you 6%, you're going to get an excellent building.

The people living for a long period of time, you could win awards in the back of it. They're gonna retain their worth. And I'm pretty sure if you gimme 6% and compared to 4%, I'm, there's much higher chance in return on investment. So yes, Mr. Client, you're spending a bit more on design services, but you're actually buying something.

You're buying a product. You are this is gonna be a far higher likelihood that I'm gonna be able to get you the hero brochures, get the awards won, that can fit in with the brand. The point is it's like. Because we work with Savills. We work in terms of McDonald company. We're like, you work, you say that Alicia, we work with a lot of clients, such as Barking Riverside.

I work with them really great scheme, which is out near Essex, which is going to regenerate an area and. They're really good schemes, but the point is that a few of the schemes I'm thinking of is that they get architects on board, and I know that the architectural fees are quite good.

And then what happens? There's much [00:36:00] more chance of a huge return on investment and getting good architecture on board. So I think that's what I'm on about. It's more about. Not a case of don't look into your soul and be like, Oh, I've been doing it wrong. We're not saying that we're just on about fight for your worth and stick strong with your fees because I feel that as well.

If you hold on to your higher fees and be open about it, then that is what you're worth and you are worth more. And from that, then you tend to get clients which want the best. So So yeah. And what I'm on about is a client that is prepared to pay a little bit more in fees, I imagine, typically, are looking for, because they want the best people to work on it.

And you are the best architect because you're going to do a great job and you've held out for a higher fee.

Oh, you're ringing. How, who's that?

Alicia Yau: Is

Stephen Drew: that [00:37:00] your mum? You can put your mum on

Alicia Yau: the podcast. No, but I think I just want to just one final thing. I think, um, usually developers, the ones that are really just not the ideal clients. For your practice, they're probably going to be really daft with their fees in a negotiation and they shut you down really early.

I think sometimes, I've luckily actually been at a juncture where I fired a client before. So I think sometimes you're going to be. Yeah, you got to confess and say, is this what I want to be doing? And if these people are going to be shutting down that negotiation, if they're not going to be willing to, dance at a table, I think it's almost like you've got to think about, are these the clients that we want?

Do we need to change our business strategy? Do we need to change tack? If this is one way you're getting your projects for the last couple of years, maybe you need a refresh. Maybe you need a rebrand. You need to think about who you are and what you actually want to do. Yeah. And for the smaller, newer practices that just started out and they struggle to get projects quite a lot.

And they say to me, look, a lot of our clients, these, design [00:38:00] managers in, in, in the client side, they just want to, oh, they just want to hire someone who, is. really established like a KPF, who I just want a KPF type of building and they won't hire us. And I think your argument would be like, do you want something new?

Do you want something fresh? And I think collectively, you got to dig deep, whoever you started a practice with, or you just by yourself, you've had a huge amount of experience coming in to start your own practice. Then you just got to be really bold and say, listen, we don't charge as much as KPF, but I will, I'll do you one better.

I will deliver. Like you said, some building that was really meaningful and I would deliver you that acres of marketing and coverage that you need to actually sell the office space. I don't know residential units or whatsoever and deliver their end result on the sales team side on the client side.

So I think you've got to just read it. I know that you probably, you guys probably already do this and formulate your argument, but I think, really, I think, a lot of them aren't doing it. So maybe I'm just, like singing about this, like a broken record, but for those who.

haven't been doing this, I think definitely start doing it [00:39:00] and know your worth,

Stephen Drew: no, I think that's cool. It's always quite interesting to see where the conversation goes because we don't really script these things. And and sometimes I think that it's not, I like it because it what it means is that it's it's more topical about what's on our mind right now.

And clearly, and I feel the same actually fees and especially where it gets really tricky. Especially doing things like coronavirus, it can be really challenging towards your fees, and I can see, I can completely understand how you might feel that you want to, for instance, lower your fees to be competitive.

It's almost sometimes what's called in architecture, suicide bids, which is just completely low, but you win the work. I can completely understand during this time. How you could be tempted to do that, but right. All right, Alicia. I think this is fantastic. We're going to round up here. So in terms of two, cause we're going to be all online.

This is going to be audio. So don't worry. No, one's going to see me early in the morning. You in the evening, we're all going to be, we're going to be on [00:40:00] Spotify. You're going to be, you're going to be, you're going to be a big star. It's going to be you and blink 182. on Spotify, but where can people find you?

So you're in the architectural social, which is awesome. You're also on LinkedIn. Where can we find you?

Alicia Yau: You can you can add me on LinkedIn. And I'm happy for you to leave my contact details. on your website as well. If they've got any questions or they want to, any disillusioned graduates who don't know what they want to do and want to work in PR, we're always looking for people, at Brunswick Group.

So yeah.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. Okay. I'll leave you LinkedIn. I'll put your social link if anyone's on there and you can say hello. Thank you so much, Alicia. Have a great I'll have a great morning. You have a great evening.

Alicia Yau: Thank you.

Bye.

Bye.