Alternative career paths after studying or working in Architecture

Alternative career paths after studying or working in Architecture
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Jack Moran: [00:00:00] It's the 23rd of September, 2020. It's 5 p. m. I'm your host, Jack Moran. Welcome to another episode from the Architecture Social. I'm joined here as always by my lovely guest, Stephen Drew. How you doing, mate? I'm a guest. I feel privileged. I feel privileged. It's mine today because I'm going to be we've got an interesting episode, haven't we?

Unfortunately, not all the gang is here. Will Ridgway has some prior engagements.

Stephen Drew: Unbelievable. He's busy doing work. It's completely unacceptable behavior.

Jack Moran: How very daring, William. How very daring. Anyway, I think we need to keep the show rolling. Today's topic, we're going to be talking about different careers.

Within Architecture, aren't we? Quite a nice topic you've gone with this week, Stephen, so why don't you tell us a bit about your thought process?

Stephen Drew: Okay, so it's a, first of all, it's a crazy week, [00:01:00] and we're all feeling a little bit loopy loo. We had Boris come on last night, and everything's changing.

I can't really do a good Boris impression, can you though, Jack? Can you do a little? It's all a bit slow, isn't it? Yeah, we're all a little bit confused right now and the, and it's a tough time. It's a really tough time. It's a little bit like when I was looking for a job during 2009, and it's quite a natural feeling to bump your head against the wall, think, is this for me?

Am I having any luck? Or maybe you want to do something else. And also, sometimes when you're studying architecture, you might feel like it's not for you. Because you've been a little bit traumatized. Maybe you had a bad experience at uni. Maybe the tutor is Excuse me, Stephen Drew. Do it, and you're like, I'm not going to work in that kind of environment.

Very natural feelings to feel. And what I would say is a few things. Okay, so I actually moved. [00:02:00] Careers away from mainstream architecture and through architectural recruitment. So I've always been passionate about architecture in a broad subject and that's what I want everyone to think about today.

There's obviously a reason why you did architecture. There's a reason why you're a designer. There's something about you which made you do them all nighters. Then maybe there's something about you that doesn't like certain aspects of them all nighters. Completely normal. So there are other avenues, there are other things that you can do in architecture.

Just because you study architecture doesn't mean that you have to do the mainstream route. Equally, and this was my little surprise thing that I didn't put on the title and I didn't want to challenge, is because when someone's thinking about leaving architecture, I want you to really think about. Are you leaving architecture or why are you doing it?

Because it's like with me and you Jack, you are [00:03:00] in a fantastically privileged position because you have me as an amazing boss and you wouldn't want to leave for whatever reason, right? Of course, but hypothetically, I'm a bit of a pain or whatever, or sometimes my attention span isn't that long, or sometimes I, I get all loud and hot and bothered and stuff.

Start, scenarios which would never happen that might tarnish your experience of recruitment. And that can happen in architecture. It's the same thing. And also you might find that in architecture, sometimes when you do get into industry, you think, Oh, this building that I'm working on, I'm working on this like rundown car park.

And then you're like, I did not study three years to do a car park. And I would be like, yeah, you didn't. But then also you've got to think you've got to start somewhere. And the car park is literally the car park where you're driving, and hey, one day you could be designing them beautiful offices.

So what I want everyone to think about before we go into this, and we're [00:04:00] going to talk about different avenues you can go within architecture, and then alongside architecture, and then outside architecture. But before you do it, we're going to go into ASMR, so we're going to have a little thing, we're going to have a little topic.

So we're in, it's like the therapy room, okay. Think about why you did architecture. Think about all the years you put into it. Think about and get rid of all the distractions, things that, the resistance of finding a job, because it can be tough, but if you do get that job and you get in there, maybe you are passionate about it.

Okay, so first thing, if you haven't managed to get in architecture yet because the climate is tough right now, then you can do it. You need to persevere because what you don't want to do is brush off architecture before you've had a chance to work in architecture. And what you should do in the meantime is keep [00:05:00] looking for jobs.

Keep looking for other jobs, which can be customer service or anything. Design related, anything related to architecture. I interviewed today Jack Akaiko with Chris. Chris is one of the direct, Chris Hartis, Director of Squires and Partners. He literally started out in his first job. He couldn't get a job in an architecture practice and he was on a construction site and the podcast would go up later in the week.

And it was really fun talking to him about it. He literally. Held the measuring tape on a site and he joined. He got there and they went and he went yeah, I can read out measurements. And they went, no, we don't trust you with that. You just came off the street. Who do you think we are? We want you to hold the measuring tape at the zero and I'll read out the measuring.

And from there he did that. He worked on the construction site for a year, realized he still loved architecture, and then he worked and then he went. back to study [00:06:00] architecture. Okay. When I was studying architecture, I worked in Waitrose. I was I used to cut the chickens. It was a good experience.

Made me realize I don't want to work in retail. Okay. So that's the flip side of this. So there's a lot of avenues you can go. So the first thing is if you're struggling to get in architecture, okay, that's normal right now. Sometimes you can have one of your friends who's talented and they've got the job and you think, oh, I'm gonna, I might not maybe I can't do it.

You can do it, persevere, but you, there's nothing wrong with getting a job which is related to architecture in the short term while you work in architecture. So that's number

Jack Moran: one. Essentially, Stephen, if I could just jump in on you there as well, that point that you're going off on, it's you made the switch, didn't you?

From, working in industry to going into architectural recruitment. And I always say about Stephen Drew that you can take Steven out of an architecture practice, but you cannot take the architecture outta Stephen [00:07:00] Drew because, oh, I will tell you from personal experience that Stephen is a very design orientated person.

Every visual, and you know what I'm talking about, Steven? Like I, I like things to look good. I like things to look good. It's almost

Stephen Drew: isn't it? Yeah, and I go, Jack, it's not good enough,

Jack Moran: just being in it. But I think even, you're talking about Chris Hartis as well, I think, and it might be a concern for a lot of, graduate architects who say they've gone through the process of looking through our previous episodes and they've got their CV out, their specs out, they've visited practices, gone for interviews, but they're still not having the luck.

And like you said, they might just get, fully put off, but even if they go work into another job, like a waitress at McDonald's, anywhere, If they put in the hard work of, working towards an architecture degree before, they have to have something about them, don't they? They need to be a sort of design oriented person, so they shouldn't worry, because naturally, if they are so interested in architecture, they are going to be drawn back to it at some point, aren't they?

Because

Stephen Drew: You you can go in and out of it and and yeah, working on a construction site, working with people. I quite like the [00:08:00] aspect of Waitrose. I remember I've got fond memories of people screaming at me about biscuits not being on the shelves and trying to find them. And it was really customer, it was really interesting experience dealing with people.

So Brian put a little quote on here. Hey, Brian, there you go. You're on the big screen. Problem solving skills apply in many walks of life. And that's true. So you got to remember that. That architecture is a really tough course and if you, for instance you have a 201 on architecture, then I would argue you've got some really good like skills and they can be applied to different things.

What I'm getting at though is before you go off divergent stuff, which is completely normal, I did work in industry for three years. Okay, so if you can, try to persevere with getting the job in the industry, because I think it's important in life to work in places and then develop a perspective. And what I mean by that is that I have an opinion based on architecture, based upon the fact that I worked there.

I was in [00:09:00] a large architectural practice, I worked on different schemes, and therefore, When someone speaks to me down the pub about what it's like to speak in architecture, then I offer an opinion. And I can talk to you about what it's like to work in retail, and we have a giggle about it now because I cut them chickens and I got in trouble because sometimes I had too many chickens and at the end of the day, I had to put them in the bin.

And oh no, I was ruining the environment and all this kind of stuff we giggle about now, but that's perspective. So I would really encourage everyone that studied architecture to try. And still you apply for that job. And if you're in an architecture practice, it's not quite the right fit right now. Do persevere a little bit.

And then if you feel in your gut, you want to do something else, then do it. Explore the other options. Okay.

Jack Moran: Just something big there, Stephen, on that point as well. It's all about, having bad experiences within a particular practice. What people shouldn't do is try and allow that. That one bad experience, shaped their whole view on architecture as a whole.

[00:10:00] It'd be like if you and me had an argument in our job one day and I let that say recruitment is not for me because one incident happened. And I think that a lot of people can fall into that, because if someone shouts at you or you have, have a bad day or you're not treated well, it's not very nice, but don't let it define.

The general, not all of architecture is going to be like that.

Stephen Drew: Exactly. And and that's unfortunately, because you think about work, it's, we're all human beings and unfortunately there is never a perfect job. There's always strengths and weaknesses with each job and there's aspects you've got to go about it.

Okay. If you're running away from architecture because you think it's hard work, Let me tell you any other career, if you want to go far in a career and you want to, you have to work hard. You have to go the extra mile because yeah, put it this way. When I was like, I want to move do something a bit different than architecture, I did that because I felt I really enjoyed it.

But I was never the guy passionate about doing a technical drawing. Okay? That wasn't me. And I [00:11:00] didn't have the certain thrills other architects have. Okay? So Ironically, there's a few buildings I worked on, Jack, like me and you, we're going to go down to Wandsworth, I'm going to show you a beautiful tour, we'll take you on a McDonnell Company outing and I'll show you one of the buildings they've done.

And I'm proud of that because when I worked in industry, I'm proud that I worked on a building and so I have no regrets for that, but it was difficult and there was sometimes a few late nights because the project was under pressure. Okay. But I realized that I was not the guy who's going to do another project on it.

I, that was my swan song. And I was like, look, I like speaking to people. I like pitching. I like presenting. I like dealing with complicated problems in a different way. I'm not going to be the guy technical drawing. So I went into recruitment, but let me tell you, recruitment is not easy. You know that more than anyone else.

And so we're not going to go into too much about [00:12:00] recruitment, but what I'm on about is it wasn't like, Oh yeah, architecture, that's a site. Now let's do a really easy job because it is like you join recruitment and people go, do you have the ability to pick up the phone and have a conversation?

And what I'm saying is that's a skill set that not everyone has. And I could do it. None of the people, not everyone can. Where I'm going with this, right? So if you find yourself in architecture like I was, I had this feeling like I didn't really want to do my Part 3. And I remember at the time, I almost felt a little bit like there was something wrong with me.

It's I've done my Part 1, 2, I've done 5 years, I've got 2 1s, which is really respectable grades in BIM. both categories. It wasn't like I was struggling or anything on paper, but I just felt like I needed something to change. And that's where I saw our recruitment. So if you are in that position and you want to explore something, it's not necessarily the end of the world.

There's a few things you can explore. [00:13:00] So I talked a little bit at the start about if you haven't managed to get a job in architecture, That's because of the environment right now. You're struggling to get in there. I do think it's worth persevering, but feel free to get another job in parallel. Don't freeze and stay in indoors and, blame yourself for everything.

Yeah. Don't go 3am down the YouTube we've all done it, but. Come back into the light, and find a job and get out there and try and do something creative. Let's say you're in an architectural practice, though. Think about working on different projects, different teams. Think about, okay, I might not enjoy this project right now if it's not particularly enjoyable, but this is going to be a good experience.

Always try to remember what you're trying to get out of a practice. And think about, if you're passionate about BIM, for instance, I don't quite see you as the Revit guy, Jack. I think you're a bit more like me, but let's say now you're a BIM wizard. Okay. There's transferable careers there. [00:14:00] So you're enthusiastic about Revit.

You might find that you really enjoy writing about Revit, researching about Revit, training people. Okay, there's a role for that called BIM Coordinators and BIM Managers in an architectural practice, and you can grow into that role. So there's loads of alternative careers within architectural practices, okay, where you basically Where the enriching comes from that, why you get to be a good BIM coordinator is if you worked on architectural projects.

And why in recruitment that I feel I am able to help people better and understand their problems is because I worked in industry. That's not a golden rule for everyone. You get very good recruiters, who are not from an architectural background. It's an advantage I have though, because I do work in the industry.

So there is lots and lots of different ways about it. So we've got quite a few comments here. I [00:15:00] love Brian. Brian, you've been an absolute trooper. And so let's, can you click these things, Jack, or have I got to click them? Can you try and click them and bring them up? I think that's going to be you. Okay so we had, so we're going to, we're going to go through a few different things here.

As you can see, Brian has mentioned a few suggestions of different roles. Architectural Journalist. Very true. You got the AJ. BD for Jobs. I absolutely am the wrong person to ask about writing anything which is longer than a job description. Don't laugh at that, Jack. I'm watching you, okay? But some people love it, and there's a few people in the Architectural Social who are passionate about writing, and I would encourage you to like Sana.

She is the is the person behind Scale. And Scale is very much Sana's creation. She's someone who likes to go out there and, She was featured in RIBA. The magazine is really good and you can go out there. You can push into these careers and they come from a place of passion. So if you're interested in journalism, write something in architecture, [00:16:00] write it on the Architecture Social, write it on the LinkedIn, get in touch with these companies.

There's companies which do marketing for architecture. So when a project comes out, they write up the, they do all the written Texts for the projects sound small, but it's actually a huge job. Oh, we just got a manager saying that you could be a cake designer. Oh, I quite like that. Exactly. Being creative. I know a hairdresser who's all architectural and has an architecture degree.

Let me tell you, it's an expensive haircut. And too right, right? When you've got that architectural degree in the department, I'm going to cut your haircut. Don't get me to cut your haircut because I'd make a big mess of it, but if you were to get, if I was to be a hairdresser, I would definitely build upon all my architectural skills because of the amount of really cool and the amount of really interesting and hard work that you've done, okay?

So we've got ideas coming thick and fast. Brian, [00:17:00] Interior Designer. That's an interesting one. Cause we touched upon it a little bit before, didn't we, Jack? We're talking about technologists because you can actually study as an interior designer, that can be your degree, but it goes either way. I've seen good interior designers who are very good at architectural components and you get architects who do a lot of interior design, you could be an interior architect, for instance.

So there's Definitely ways to go between that. We've got more 3D Cutter and Laser Wizards. Yeah, there you go. And we're not on about Harry Potter. What we're on about is CADs. Have you ever seen them? Like you, you understand it you call Will now. Yeah, separation issues. Yeah.

Will. Yeah. Where is Will? Will's vanished. And ladies and gentlemen, so I need to know Hobbs ReproGraphic 3D. So all the 3D modeling, 3D printing. So architectural buildings get printed in them. You can learn how to do a lot of CAD, a little workshop, all that stuff. I was the worst person for that.

I used to have these. Big fat fingers [00:18:00] making models. Model making is another career from architecture. Okay. And you can, if you're interested in model making, if you're not like me and you destroy everything with big hands, right? If you're not like that, then you do enjoy spending a little time intricately building stuff.

Then architectural model making is absolutely another career. Again, it goes back to that theory. Okay. A good, if you're an architect who specializes in interior design, if you understand architecture, then you're going to make more informed interior design. It's going to feed into what you do. If you're an architect, you're a model maker, okay?

Your background in architecture is going to inform how you're going to understand the point of view of an architect. When they're panicking about getting it out the door, you're going to be like, okay, I understand that. And you're going to, you're going to Basically, everything you do, it bleeds into it, so all the experience you've got bleeds into it.

The fact that you study architecture when you write journalism, you're going to be passionate about it, and you're going to make more of an informed decision. Unless you're like me, and you [00:19:00] can't write anything at all, and therefore that's probably not an article anyone wants to read. Okay, so we've got more, we've got more things coming freaking fast.

I can't keep up with this, I'm loving it! People are being very active today. I'm loving it. Look, we got everything. Okay, so we're going to go to the top. Okay, we're going to go to the top. Karak was looking at Lou Reddy's motivation letter 10 years before. That is quite cool. If you feel like you lost the way or you've had a bad day in the office, if you read your motivation letter from 10 years earlier, You find the spark.

Yeah, that's a really good point. You've got to remember you're on this journey for something. I always wanted to create something. I always wanted to do that. And yeah, okay. I don't work in mainstream architecture practice. I help people in their careers, more importantly, the social, right? I love being involved in that.

And more importantly, I love seeing what the guys and everyone in the community builds and it's really nice. So I get all my architectural juices out of that. By doing that kind of thing. So there's loads and loads of ways about it. Okay. [00:20:00] Look at this one from Brian. When the recession hits, people start running wine bars.

Up until 10 o'clock, Brian, because after that, the coronavirus comes out. But yes, I've known people that do businesses. There was one architect who did a gin bar and it was that one, Jack, if you get about it, where you go into the room and you breathe in the gin in the air and you get drunk. I'm not, because in the, yeah there's a bar oh, this would be the kind of thing to look up online.

Can I do that? Let me get rid of all my tabs. So they actually

Jack Moran: sell gin in there as well, or do you just go in there to sniff it?

Stephen Drew: No, it's in the air. So you, this, like the alcohol is in the air. See, very architectural. So you go in, we have a chat, and the amount I'm talking, I'll be on the floor comatose, and you will still be there.

Okay, so there's a lot of things. So we've got, Brian's got a few more suggestions. Architectural Historians, GMW. Yeah, exactly. GMW, they had a librarian who was an architect, okay? [00:21:00] I know people in fosters and partners who do material libraries, okay? I know people in fosters and partners who are solicitors or lawyers or who have a specialism in law, but it's built upon their career in architecture, so they basically make sure that fosters and partners are legally protected and not sued.

Brian Massesso. Excellent example, Brian, I know you've got a fantastic little career where you've gone into, for instance, sustainability. Sustainability is a massively important thing and when I was in architectural practice, I had a little bit of exposure to BREEAM. And what that is like an assessment platform for how efficient the building is in terms of sustainability.

Sustainableness, Jack. So it's everything about a building. It's like where the material's coming from. Are they being flown in? Is it locally sourced material? Are you using renewable energy or renewable water? And that's the ethical side about it. Yeah. And from that you get a grade from it. So you have people which help [00:22:00] consult on the building, how to achieve that.

Yeah. Okay. So Architectural podcast. Not quite a career yet. I still need my job to do it. Yeah, almost there, but not quite. Environmental consultant. Really good point. There's a few companies that I know that look for people from an architectural background. To consult upon daylight, day and light analysis.

So what that means, Jack, is that when a building, they assess the windows, if there's enough light. So this year, if this was too small, or there's a neighboring building, you're going to be dark, like in your little matrix world that you're in now, Jack. And no, but you've closed the blinds, but basically, If, imagine if you had no choice and the window was rubbish, then that's not allowed.

Very depressing, yeah. Yeah, very depressing. So you have

Jack Moran: people who consult on that, okay? They do it in central London as well, don't they? All the buildings, they have to meet certain regulations so they're not blocking a certain amount of sunlight too. Yeah, exactly. And

Stephen Drew: that's a career where you, if you have an [00:23:00] architectural background, they're going to be open to it because you understand buildings.

Brian mentions website editing. Okay, yep, absolutely. I know one of my friends who's got his part one, and then he is a front end designer for, he writes scripts, so he is actually the matrix. He is, so he does all the codes and all the stuff I don't understand. But even me, the Architectural Social website I build, and okay, I don't code it from scratch.

I get, sometimes I get a bit of templates, and I adjust them, and I learn a little bit of code, but that kind of ability comes from me doing architecture. And as architect, as Jack, I can be a little bit keen about presentation in McDonald company. So I did our own architecture brochure and I was very adamant about how it should be because I've I've got a degree in the palm and I should know how it goes.

I love Stephen. There you go. Hey, Sana is in here. Sana at scale. So you've got a really good website. Okay. Sana, I absolutely love your platform. And so actually a little [00:24:00] shout out to Sarno at scale here. I want everyone to check out to scale because if you're interested in journalism, Sarno wrote a community book.

It's basically a book. I wouldn't call it a magazine and it's really nice. And I've got a copy here. It's in the other room. I'll have to get it here sometime. We have to showcase it, but basically that platform is collaborators. So if you're interested in journalism, you can get involved and you can Do some writing, that can be the kind of thing that will spur on conversations for the future.

Wow, I can't keep up with these, all these comments,

Jack Moran: Jack. Why don't we go to I'm seeing a question here by the Architectural Experiment. The roles we've been talking about, yeah. How long? Oh, I know them. They sound almost senior, don't they? Quite expert in each role. What about that? What, what can the graduates look at?

Is there anything for a graduate who might be in a similar position where they could look at potential roles, yeah.

Stephen Drew: Good question. You can see how there's a theme of a lot of these roles that Nilda at the Architecture Experiment has pointed [00:25:00] out. I do think a lot of these require a little bit of industry experience, okay?

Yeah. There's a few that don't, so there's a few architectural practices, there's a few developers, construction companies, which will offer schemes to graduates, graduate specific schemes. Remember we were speaking to a chap about a month or two ago? That was going to go into a graduate scheme, and it was a big construction company, Jack, and they were all going to offer him a year's worth of work.

Really good. And it was in construction. A lot of it would be to do with infrastructure. Okay, so you do have these graduate schemes. You do have graduate schemes in property as well, so we work with developers. Developers will have graduate schemes, and they're open to anyone with a degree. You will find that you could even become a stockbroker if you wanted to based upon your degree, and you will probably find that there is an entry to do it.

But like everything else, there's gonna be an [00:26:00] interview and people are gonna challenge. The heck out of you. I was CCI was good there. I didn't swear because they were gonna do a live recording after check. People are gonna challenge you and what you're gotta remember is that when I went for a job as a recruitment consultant, the first thing everyone would say is, why are you giving up?

Are you sure you want to give a, and when I interview people to work on recruitment, the first thing I go is. Do you really want to work in recruitment? Yes. We've heard all the stories. You can have a nice life. Money is, they can be definitely higher than architecture. I will be upfront about that. It is also incredibly hard.

And I remember I always ask, I'm like, are you prepared to go to a dinner party and people will criticize you about being a recruitment consultant? And if you're not, go down the road. And what I'm going to say to you guys is when you Study Architecture and you're looking to go into a divergent topic.

You are going to be tested on it. [00:27:00] So you need to really think about these things. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But I went into a head on and I said, look, I've done architecture. I really am passionate about the sector. The thing is, I am not the guy who's going to get excited about technical detailing.

I am proud of the buildings I've done. I am keen to pursue this. I'm keen to go down recruitment. I am passionate about speaking to people and I believe I'll be good at it. And more than that, I am ready to do it. I made a decision. I have handed over my knowledge in an architecture practice. I've left in good terms.

I'm ready to go. So I'm going to want to do it at your company or I'll do it somewhere else, but I'd much rather do it with you. Okay. So it's like that energy. And persistence. And if you have that, you can look at other careers. But that's what I'm trying to get to you guys now is that I spent so long deliberating it and I really thrashed it out in my head so that when I went to that interview, when they ask, why do you want to [00:28:00] move?

You're not going, ah, because people are going to ask, but let me tell you the, actually the mighty networks, the platform, the architecture social is built on. The lead developer, he, I was watching one of his webinars about the about the platform. He was from architecture. So there's absolutely loads of things you can do.

Okay, Jack, let's try and dissect a little bit more of the comments, because I'm, they're running away from me. I've picked up one that I think is very interesting. It's

Jack Moran: one from Francesco. Okay. He's talking about the computational design of works. That's it. Yeah. I really like this idea. Stephen, we, you remember before the whole COVID world kicked off, I remember when you had a very specific conversation about how the sort of future in architecture did lie in the sort of, the visual computerized design that you do see.

So whenever architecture practices, Facing clients and they're, projecting what their builders to look like. They'll use the new UI. Yes,

Stephen Drew: game engines you're on about, [00:29:00] right? Because look, an architect is going to be designing in a building and you have the way his tools are moving at a fast pace.

So we can now look at BIM in real time and there's lots of other stuff. And you can actually, there's loads of careers in that. And so 3D game engines, okay, that's one form of of architectural visualization or representation in life form. Okay, that sounded like a lot of jargon, but what I'm saying is, 3D game engines, we play a game and what we see live.

If you're playing Call of Duty live, you're getting people move live live, and that technology is now applying to what design and architecture. So that enables an architecture. Architect to make design decisions quicker. So Francesco, when you learn about computational networks and coding AI, there's loads of companies that do that.

One or two shout outs would be MATLAB. There's a guy called David Flynn, who used to be BIM Manager at Grimshaw. He now set up a company and he does a lot of scripts. I have a good friend called Tom Mahone. I'm going to try [00:30:00] and get him on here at some point. Tom, I'm coming for you. I'm going to hunt you down and you're going to be a guest.

And Tom owns a company called BIMorph. Now, Tom used to work at Fosters and Partners, and I can't go into specifics of the project because this is live, but he was very influential. And he wrote as a part one. In Foster's and Partners, he wrote a script, and that script on a project optimized it and saved hundreds of man hours, which in terms of how this, saving hundreds of hours basically saved the company a lot of money, okay?

And that is a true team effort. If you can save thousands of hours on output, then, You've done a really good job to the architectural practice. So computational design, there's definitely, you've got more and more roles in parametric design. I know someone that studied with me on part two and got a job at Bryden Wood as a computational designer.

So that is [00:31:00] another avenue to go down as well. It's very niche. You have to be really passionate about it. You have to be that guy who's got a lady who's been working the midnight oil and wrote scripts and stuff that is equally rewarding. But what's this question? Let's go back to Francesca's question.

Can we optimize multiple aspects of the design, also in terms of how much information? Yeah, so basically what you're saying is people who specialize in the process of architecture. Remember, you've got architectural design, then building information management is a whole niche in itself. Computational design, there's companies like AKT who do structural work with architecture and they do all the, they help realize all the amazing wibbly wobbly projects which you would think is completely balmy, so stuff like Heatherwick and Zara did help make them stand up.

Sana, yes, graphic designer, definitely look into that. Double check though. How much money is involved in all these jobs? If you're moving over from architecture to graphic design, there's not much money in it. [00:32:00] So you've got to be really passionate about all the subjects you've got. Another really good topic from, another really good suggestion from Sana.

Which one else am I missing, Jack? Yeah,

Jack Moran: There is a Brian is coming up with a few suggestions, but I see Sana's one here as well.

Stephen Drew: So Osanis is a nice little recommendation talking about AI. So Nicholas Darby, yeah, if you're interested in this stuff, that might be a good thing before you like knee bolt out of architecture.

The first thing that I would always do is that, if you're interested in BIM, for instance, and you work in architecture why not start making an effort with the architecture, the BIM manager who is. In the practice, why not try to moonlight underneath that person and learn from them? Okay, if you're interested in marketing and in the architectural practice you're in, why not speak to the architect and a marketeer?

Okay, speak to the head of marketing. Say that you're interested, and slowly what you might find is that you do a little bit [00:33:00] here, a little bit there, maybe a little bit in your own time, and suddenly your role moves towards it. If you're interested in journalism right now, okay, if you're interested in journalism, get involved with Silent Hill Scale Project.

Should write in content. Do it. Get out there. RIBA reposted it. You've got to do stuff. You've got to be out there and go for it. And you can do it in a way that you can do it where you're doing it lightly. You're doing little bits before you hand your notice in and get your P46 and get walked out the door.

Okay. So when I was Curious about the idea of going into recruitment? I researched it yeah, and what I would say is, if you're interested in maybe performing arts or setting up exhibitions, so I used to know someone in Manchester who used to do all the sound and lighting for nightclubs. And he was my tour, actually.

And I did all the shows. I did Oh, did I show you, Jack? I've done the If you Google, I think Manchester [00:34:00] Hospitality Second Stage 2012. You will see me doing all the lighting on it. Oh man, I totally need to share the screen for this kind of thing. Maybe I'm going to do it. Let's have a little look, experiment with that.

How do you do it? Let's have a see.

Jack Moran: While you're just doing that as well, Stephen, I just wanted to highlight one of the questions as well. And it's talking about freelancing this has come from the architectural experiment. And he's saying sometimes it feels in order for someone to go into a practice or, get, go from being a freelancer, getting work, if they're starting as a freelancer, is it essential for them to have been in a practice first to have gained experience?

Do you think, In architecture, say they're trying to freelance from the very beginning, like they don't want to go and work in

Stephen Drew: a practice, they want to do it themselves. Look at this, we've got Inception going on. Sorry Jack, I messed it up. You don't need it, you just feel it out. Oh no! You can see my big screen.

I've got distracted, Jack. Oh no! I'm messing it up! [00:35:00]

Jack Moran: It's okay, mate. This is all very new to Stephen as well. For everyone watching, he's, Yeah, let

Stephen Drew: me get

Jack Moran: it back.

Stephen Drew: Hang on. Okay. All right. Hang on. I've got it. All right. I'm on the case. There you go. Hospitality, Manchester, 2012, YouTubes. I'm really proud of this.

Second best of all, you can just hear me click, can't you?

Jack Moran: Why don't you tell us a bit more about this while we're

Stephen Drew: looking up for it as well? YouTubes, YouTubes, that's not the correct way, is it? So I just did the so in Manchester Hospitality, do a second stage. Oh, I'm going to have to find it later, aren't I?

Look, I've got the Brianna Hotel. Britannia Hotel? I didn't do that at all. I didn't do that. I've gone completely off. Festival. I[00:36:00]

think it was like Love Festival. Has anyone been to Manchester? What's it called?

Jack Moran: Love Festival. Yeah,

Stephen Drew: I can't find them. Maybe we can get out for that in the next episode. Oh, yeah, it is. Yeah, this is me. I did all the lighting for this. Yeah. Oh, there we go. So there we go. Yeah. I did all this light and I set up all this stuff here.

It was a really cool experience. Really cool. So it's still like a very visual sort of design y orientation. Yeah. Hospitality. I did high contrast, 2012. Oh, I'm getting there at the end, guys. Sorry. Yeah, high contrast Manchester. What I'm trying to get with all this is that this, here we go so there you go, Jack, you're going to be really impressed with this now.

Can you hear the sound as well if I turn it on? Can you hear that? Cannot, no. Okay, good, because it's terrible. You see all this [00:37:00] lighting, right? So I did this, I had to do that, and they were on stage. They were on live! And so I got this old cardboard kit that my tutor gave me, and I had to make it all work live.

And so I was thrown up there. You had all this hospitality kicking off. You had me in the background. I had to put the strobes on! I had to design it, and then I had to get the screens in the background to do an effect with this. And I'd never been briefed on it, right? And the thing is I got that from knowing my tutor at the time.

And he got me on board with it. Basically, from that Ooh, here we go. It was something completely different. So I've done that. I'll show you a few of the that century. So when I was in architectural practice, I'm really proud that I worked in this. I don't really do architecture anymore, but I worked on that.

I did that double mansard, right? It was really cool experience. And that informs that. So when I do recruitment now, I feel like I know what I'm talking about. Okay. And so we were talking a little bit [00:38:00] about Salna's projects earlier. So scale to scale. All right. So Salna, she's got her own little blog here.

She's got her own little website. She's got this whole community as well. And she did this magazine. Okay. I've got it in my living room. There you go. It's on RIBA's website. Get in the magazine, write with Sana, get in the magazine. So this is what I'm on about. So if you want to break into journalism, you've got to do stuff like this.

Cause if you go into an interview, I guarantee you, if you did this, or you were involved with this and then you went and then you researched, so architecture, marketing companies, okay, I can think of one or two on top of my head. ING Media, okay. ING Media, PR Communications Agency for Architecture.

Oops, sorry guys, bang, I'm getting all excited on my little quest online. It's quite [00:39:00] cool though, Jack, isn't it? We're now officially YouTubers. And so what I'm on about is that these companies, okay they write for projects, they write what's happening, they write about new adventures they talk about the story, they take the scheme and they instill it into words.

All right. If you've done something like this, when you're going into it, you go, I've done architecture, or I get involved with this, or, for instance, with the architecture, that I love for a little architectural experiment.

Oh, there you go. You got my little thing there as well. There we go. So I did that. I did. There we go. We got, this is Nilda's website, the architectural experiment. Nice journalism. I read a really good one, which was like to the class of 2020, basically sympathizing with how awful the year is. Okay, this is the kind of stuff you need to take to the interview.

This is the stuff you need to get out there if you're going to move careers. All right, but then with [00:40:00] NILDA, that's what we talked about is that, and SANA actually works in architectural practices now, they all enrich each other. Okay, you're writing, is enriched by what you do in architecture and your architecture enriches your writing and your experience in architecture informs your BIM.

Okay, you experience in architecture and industry, informs my recruitment. My recruitment then influences My views on architecture are Ohio people, and so it goes around and around. So Brian has seen buildings, he's seen things work, and that's, and all these things inform people about their design.

So I'm going to turn off the website right now. That was quite fun, wasn't it? I got there in the end, so I was sweating for a bit trying to find, it's I can't find that festival. Ah, okay.

Jack Moran: That kind of stuff though, Stephen, it will, when you are looking for other jobs, that. All these little things, even if you're doing it as like a side hobby, all this journalism or historical writing, whatever it is, it's going to make you stand out.

It is tough to put on your CV as Simon just said as well. Yeah, but it's going to show, I think [00:41:00] it's going to show your versatility, that you're not just a design person who can draw lines and, use software.

Stephen Drew: I'm going to murder you. Just lying. I did five years, everyone here works so hard. What it is, sometimes you have to be brave.

And what Jack was trying to say eloquently is sometimes the braver thing is to realize that you want to do something else. And let me tell you, when I moved away from architecture, some people thought I was insane. It's you're just going to be that long? You're not going to be a recruiter?

And. Now, yeah, that was scary at the time. It's going to be scary moving to another job. It's going to be scary trying to transition over to something else. But if you're passionate about it, do it. I definitely would encourage it. But also, what I want to say to people is Architecture is a good career.

And what I would encourage people to do is that I did work in industry for three years before I decided to do something else. Okay if you definitely fed up now and you don't want to work in architectural practice, then okay. I just think it is worth persevering, it is [00:42:00] worth going into an architectural practice so that you can work.

Get an opinion. You can make an informed decision. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

Jack Moran: It's almost like a rocket jump, isn't it? When you get hit and get back up and

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And it's if you came into recruitment and you worked on my team for a week and went, I don't like it. I'm like, oh man, you didn't try.

You didn't try. If you work a year or two and yeah, it's like Chris's podcast, which I'm going to we're going to hopefully get out near the end of the week, is he, when he hires someone, he says, come work with me for a year and see what happens. Sometimes people go on to do different things and that's fine.

Definitely giving it a go. Okay. That's why I would encourage everyone to do here. If you want, and let me rephrase, I think if you're thinking of exploring alternative careers or divergent careers within architecture, nothing wrong with that. And so that, and I'm the person that has done that and there's living proof that you can make a [00:43:00] healthy career from doing something different after architecture.

And the other example that came to my head Jack, is that Rockstar Gaming? You know we were talking about. I was waiting for that name to be dropped in. Yeah, I forgot. They do, they actually hire architects to do 3D environments.

Jack Moran: And headquarters in

Stephen Drew: Scotland.

Jack Moran: Yeah. It's quite interesting though, isn't it?

But yeah, it's like everything's pushing in that direction is now. And you know what I'm like, whenever we play any games by Rockstar, Stephen, how, visually detailed they are. It's no surprise that they have to have like almost like a visualizer. A designer in a role for that, when they need someone to be able to put these designs into place.

It's all becoming so massively digitized now.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and also think about it with GTA. I'm hopping on about GTA right now, but when you're designing the cities, it's like the flow, it's like a good level. Okay, and an architect, we've been, you've been trained in design and you've got to think about it. It's like one of these things that with games like GTA or design or like a film or [00:44:00] going into any of that, that when they're really impressive is when you don't notice them.

And I think that's what comes from someone that studies architecture. What I'm on about is, the truth is, it's a really good career to implement use. It's a really good career to have. I've learned so much about it. How I think about business comes from the way I do architecture and everything. Okay. So it's really good.

I'm just going to do a few more shout outs because I see what's happening. So Brian says, when I was an architecture student, shifted sideways into interior design, specialized. Indoor Air Quality, and then followed her partner, Australia, where she became an environmental consultant. Brilliant! Following life's journeys, traveling as well, stuff like that.

It really enriches everything makes complete sense. Brian, you've got another good one here. Brian, you really are very good. God, I think you're coming out on full force. He's the MVP of today's episode, isn't he? MVP! MVP of today's episode! I want to okay, everyone, the bell. I love the bell. [00:45:00] Soon, we're going to have a soundboard.

Jack Moran: Look at Jack's face! I just saw one of the comments come up as well talking about Assassin's Creed and talking about, city design as well, because Assassin's Creed is a very historical kind of thing, so there were a lot of teams.

Stephen Drew: Absolutely, and remember when Paris, the old Notre Dame Cathedral or what have you, went burning?

They had game designers and architects on board. Okay, in collaboration. Mate, and actually, Assassin's Creed, they did such a good job at modeling the city that Assassin's Creed developers gave the city of Paris the model, the 3D model to use. Yeah, so it's the super cool stuff. All right, I'm just having a little bit more of these now.

Freelancing Part Ones. Okay, find out, when you freelance in, freelancing is good experience, definitely worth doing. I while I, when I was doing my part one, I used to do little drawings and freelance for [00:46:00] small conservatories and stuff, and I got paid part per hour. Be business savvy though.

If you're going to do work, ask for how much money, okay? If you're going to be doing drawings, you should be paying something in some shape or form, or you should have some experience. Unless it's a listed charity or something like that, where such as, oh, what's the charity I'm always involved in, Jack?

Because my mind's, you've got Architectural Benevolent Society, and then you've got Article 25, they're good salary, they're good practices. That's, I get everything in life. Just make sure that if you spend time on it, you should be paid in some shape or form. You really should. Nothing wrong with freelancing.

Find out per hour! And do a bit of research online. Ask in the Architectural Social. Is this a good rate? Ask people, right? You can ask me. I can try to comment obviously involves a lot of context and everything else going on. So what there we go. I enjoyed this message from Brian, who says, thanks for doing this.

He's walking his granddaughter home. Thank you, [00:47:00] Ryan, and do concentrate on doing this. Do show up to the next one. That was a lot of fun on that. Oh Madge, you asked Brian a question about what qualifications to look as Lighting Designer. There's one or two Lighting Designers on the Architectural Social.

There's actually one individual, I believe, who posted his CV there for the group, so you can have a little look. I think there might be specific qualities. For Light InDesign, though, you might go in, you can go into it. I definitely know you can get a Master's in Light InDesign. Yeah. Okay.

Architectural Experiment. Collaborating is very important. Exactly. There you have written the team. Architectural Experiment meet with Scale. And this is all the thing is, I think the more and more you're out there in the community, the more and more you're making, the better. Remember to use all this stuff.

I think it's time to go forward and look for other stuff for the next step. What I want everyone to do is to go forward and keep looking for architectural jobs. And then if you feel like you've done it for a while, you've worked in architecture practice, then look for other stuff.

But remember, if you're going forward, you gain an experience. The [00:48:00] worst thing you can do right now is to make excuses. So if you're to yourself, you're laying yourself down, okay? You don't want to, what? I was being a bit dramatic there, Jack, sorry. What I'm on about is, don't, in your head, go back and forth about should I, shouldn't I, Go to it, do, get experience, do a little bit of freelance, work in an architectural practice, write an article, put yourself out there.

What I'm going to do over this week, probably a good time to announce this. Jack, can you do me a drum roll or something? Let's have a bit of fun. News, new update. Okay, so I'm going to do a content creator group. On the Architectural Social, so it's going to be a private group within the group for people who want to push ideas on the platform or want to push their ideas and I can help champion.

You want to write, journal, do it, I'll help you do it. Let's see it fail, let's see it grow. If you want to post some content, fantastic. [00:49:00] Do events? Great. If you want to write a blog about building, do it. I'm going to do a little group in the architectural social called content creators and influencers.

And anyone that is a mover, a shaker, or anyone that wants to do some stuff and join me making a ripple, then let's get involved and do it. If you want to write out a newsletter, I will help you publish the goddamn thing. We will do it. It's not going to be as good as Sana's in scale, and I'm not really trying to look at that.

But if you want to do something like that, then fine. I just think it'd be really good for people who have ideas. Okay, I'm on about, you want to do a BIM course? Let's get that going. Let's get out there. You want to do a book club? Like Tony and the Architectural Social. Great. I'll help you build a book club.

Okay. I'm going to be the worst person reading it. I'll probably get the page free. I'll scan the page three times, Jack, because I can't read anything else, but I'll help you build the book club. And so if anyone wants to do any ideas, we will get the content creators. And [00:50:00] maybe as well, when I, let me rephrase.

Okay. You don't need to do anything. Architectural Social branding content. This is about using the Architectural Social to do your thing. Okay, that's what I'm on about. We're going to move, shake, we think of the Architectural Social as we're like a tribe, a community. We've got scale, we've got scale on board, we've got the architectural experiment, with everyone else on board, let's get going, let's get going forward.

And so it's like a little bit of a family feel we'll push forward. Content creators, what do you think Jack, good idea? I think that sounds like a, Splendid idea. Splendid. Oh,

Jack Moran: that's very quintessentially English, isn't it? I like that. I like the content, but it all goes back to the idea of, engaging with each other and collaboration, networking.

Although right now, we talked about, do you remember a few weeks ago, we spoke about the whole Jiminology with the whole sending CVs out and how we're working to Oh, you loved that, didn't [00:51:00] you? Because you are that man. You're good at

Stephen Drew: it. No, you're really good at it.

Jack Moran: It is true though, isn't it?

Although I know even networking with people now or collaborating, it might not have so much immediate results, will it? But in the future, yes, we are going through a recession right now when there's all COVID and it's all down. But if we are on a down, there has to be an up that follows.

And when we are in that up period, All the work and networking and collaboration you've done now is going to have a really positive effect because you're going to know a lot more people. You're going to know a lot more of what's going on in the market. You're going to be a lot more tooled up when it comes to doing interviews, who's hiring, where do I want to work, what's popular at the minute, what software is in, where can I go?

This will all come from the groundwork that you're putting in here. So if you look at, like scale, look at the architectural experiment, these are the perfect sort of platforms that should highlight the importance of, uh, collaborating with each other and the benefit it can have.

Stephen Drew: Said.

I agree. Sal, I agree with you. Let's say the round of applause for Jack there. No, it's true because what you're on about, networking and being out there, [00:52:00] A, it informs your perspective. You might collaborate on something and go, I love that. I'm going to write journalism. And also you make friends and connections open opportunities.

And so a part of what we're on about, we've listed a lot of topics and how to go into it, but guess what, right? It's going on this construction site, going into an architectural practice, me doing the social and me and Sana, me and everyone, me and you working together, which has got us all to this point.

And if I suddenly stop speaking to people, if I suddenly Stop networking. If we suddenly stop challenging our own ideas and stop going forward, then I might miss out the other opportunities. And so that's what I really feel is that that's why I don't regret anything I've done. And that's why sometimes it's like my partner just says my brain never turns off and it's true and sometimes it can be [00:53:00] annoying when I'm in Fort Park and I'm thinking about what I'm going to add to the architectural social and it's hello life, come on.

Get a life, right? But, okay, you've got to calm down in Fort Park. What I'm on about though is if I, if you, this really healthy for me to put these ideas into a vehicle and I feel alive on projects and when things don't work out, as well. I've learned from them. I have experience and it's that experience which pushes me forwards, right?

It's people that I've met right now. I can, I had an idea. I called Sanna up. We had a nice little chat. I have an idea. I'll ring you up, Jack. And sometimes you're like, Steve, go away. And I'm like, but I've got one idea. No, but we joke. We joke and have a giggle and it's networking. Networking will get you opportunities and if you are looking for alternative careers in architecture, stay, keep building, keep producing content, keep [00:54:00] networking and take opportunities.

Write that journal. If you study in architecture and you are interested in 3D game engines, build a 3D gaming model that then goes into your portfolio. And then you go and speak to Rockstar, Jack. You say, I built this. Okay. It's, part of my university work. I'm really interested in 3D game engines.

They're going to be like, wow, this guy's clued on. And so what I, the reason I did the festival now, I didn't, I'm proud of what I did, but imagine I wanted to go down in that festival route. The fact is, we were joking about it, and it took me a minute or two to get it up on YouTube, because I'm getting old, but I managed to show you something I'd done, which if you were doing that, then we could have a conversation about it, isn't it?

Because I went out of my way to do that, and I got paid nothing, next to nothing. I was in a muddy flat. I feel freezing, but I just wanted to do it, okay? And so that's the thing, you've got to keep pushing the work in architecture, you've got to, you've got to do one or two nights you're not [00:55:00] comfortable with, and then you learn and you go, I've done that now, I'm not going to do it again.

Or you might do another project and you might, and remember, you can sometimes go away from architecture and then go back to it. It isn't like a bad breakup where you can't speak to that person again. You can flirt around with these things. I got a friend that always says, I'll do my part three and I will be an architect.

He always jokes if someone sees him, he's yes, you will be back. And I'm always like, you are delusional because I enjoy what I do. But look at what I do with the social now. I get my design kicks out of it and that comes from architecture. So the moral of the story is I would not be here if it wasn't for our architecture.

Let's get that straight, okay? My architecture career helps my recruitment so it's not a waste of time. And the projects I was in, while some of them were fun and some of them were frustrating at the time, like life, it helps my opinion now. Okay. And I made the decision to move, but I made an informed decision.

I researched it [00:56:00] and I didn't do a crazy moment. I looked while I was working in architecture and that's the way I would do it. You've had some really nice ideas here. Sorry guys, I tricked you a little bit by almost saying yeah, I'll list a few things, but what I wanted to do was catch you here and go, aha, I want you to think about what you're doing and, ah, I want you to challenge yourself and think about an architect.

It builds buildings literally, but I like to think of an architect like the Matrix. You remember in that scene when they're like, the architect's in the room and he's I built this life and I

Jack Moran: Is that the guy with the pen? The guy at the end? Yeah, maybe, with all them screens on. He says, I'm the

Stephen Drew: designer of the Matrix.

Yeah he was. And so what I mean is he's an architect. And in terms of, I design the Archive Social, I enjoy it, but then, it's like a real life project. It completely changes, some things work, some things doesn't, based upon [00:57:00] the people in it, and it's fun, and sometimes it doesn't work, and sometimes I drive people insane by talking about it all the time.

Jack, I don't talk about it that much, do I?

Yeah, all right, but okay, the point is I get excited about it, Built Upon Architecture. So guys, have a little think about it now. I think we're going to leave it there on the hour mark quite soon. Okay, Francesco says, if anyone's interested in 3D modeling or ASIO gaming, Sketchfab's amazing free platform.

Wow, that is a good shout out. There on the screen, posted on the YouTubes. And thank you Francesco. And there you have it. Engagement. There you go. I'm loving this formula. Look, if anyone's enjoyed it, anyone's got any suggestions for next week, let's do it. I'm, we're going to start. I did a little, I did a survey.

The other week, and this, the survey says, survey said that we have enough events as it is, people enjoy these, [00:58:00] but I think interactive salary serving, so I'm working on that as we speak, so we will have that in some shape or form. And we will improve the format because I did an interactive salary years ago.

What I'm trying to do is just crack how we can do the live data of salaries. So we're, people submitting salaries without giving away their details, like their name or companies. I got to be really careful about that, but we will get a live salary. Then Jack, the next one in the survey said we want more podcasts.

So we're going to do that. And then we're going to Jack. Announcement for you. You're going to do it anyways, but you won't be able to back out now because I'm telling you live, we're going to do the live architecture show the architecture social show every week. And I think what we're going to talk about is news, updates, thoughts, bells, horns.

Jack Moran: We're gonna be talking about what's hot and what's not.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Hot's not? I can't speak [00:59:00] anymore. Yeah, and jobs, trends, COVID, news, architecture.

Jack Moran: Very much all contemporary to what's going on,

Stephen Drew: yeah, and maybe we'll do a little quiz. Maybe we'll we'll, Get Will to do one of his dad jokes, put everyone to sleep.

Oh, can you imagine?

Jack Moran: We don't want to lose ratings.

Stephen Drew: Oh, we will lose ratings. Yeah, we're going to, we're going to do that. And yeah. Big stuff for the future, isn't it? We're going to do all that, but I want to see everyone after this, if you were thinking of moving about careers. Talk about it. Underneath this event, make a little note, make a comment.

There's people on the Architectural Social who are journalists. There's a few directors and employers on there now. Two people signed up today, Jack. Can't say the names of the companies, but one of them is an HR 100 company and a director joined. So we There's some big artists. I'm just saying it's a good time to update your CV and put it on guys, if I was you.

So we're getting there. [01:00:00] We're the vision's actually happening, but all ideas, all input comes from conversation that comes from you. So if you want to generate content, you want, you were thinking about being a journalist in the future, get in contact with people who are involved in that. Like the architectural experiment, like scale.

There's a group called scale on the platform, and you have all the details. How to contact Sana, join the group, do anything, but just get involved, be out there and just tap each other up and get us some ideas. So on that note, I think we signed out and yeah, we're going to get a little soundboard. We're going to get a little jingle.

Jack, what's going to be our jingle? Do you want to do a little jingle noise? Do.

Jack Moran: I don't

Stephen Drew: even know the

Jack Moran: Super Mario one because

Stephen Drew: it's in my head. That's Mario! You can't use that copyright! Nintendo are gonna scare us.

Jack Moran: You've got a guitar behind you. You can write us one for the live show, can't you?

Stephen Drew: I've got to update the strings. You're gonna rumble me live. I haven't played for ages. I think we'll come up, we'll put our heads together with me [01:01:00] and we'll, Okay, we're going to do a jingle. We're going to do a jingle. Okay, guys, I'm signing out. Jack, thank you. Good episode this week. Stephen, for joining us.

Yeah, everyone. Samer, Francesco, The Arctic's Experiments, Nilda, Karak, Brian, and Brian's grandkids. And Madge. Thank you, everyone, in the live chat. See you soon. Take care. Enjoy the rest of your week, guys. Bye bye. Until next time. Bye bye. Bye

bye.