Architecture Careers in the Gulf, ft. Andy Shaw

Architecture Careers in the Gulf, ft. Andy Shaw
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Hello everyone! Let's get ready. Bell. Check. Soundboards. Check. Let's get some, some sound. I'm excited. We're going international, guys. I had a fever last night. If I sound like I'm hallucinating, I am. I think there's one guest here. Might be two. We'll all find out in a bit.

15 seconds.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to this live stream special. Andy, good that you joined me. Then I was worried that you'd, [00:01:00] you'd, you'd sneaked off, but thank you for tuning in. Everyone, Andy, I'll come to you in a second, but I just want to be honest with the listeners because I've got a bit of a fever or something.

Maybe it was that London Build Expo. Maybe I should have washed my hands a bit more or whatever. But the show doesn't stop. So if I sound like I'm hallucinating, I probably are. More to the point though, I was really excited to do this episode. And that's why I've dragged myself out of bed because I've got an important guest all the way around the world.

Now I've got one or two friends, Andy, okay. That I've always talked about what it's like to live in Dubai, how awesome it is, all the careers out there. But I've got a confession. I've never even been. to Dubai, right? And it's on my list because you've got to see all these different parts of the world.

However, I was really flattered when you came up with this idea to talk about today, what it's like to work as an architect or an [00:02:00] architectural technician, technologist, whatever, in the Gulf. So without further ado, may I introduce formally, Mr. Andy Shaw. Andy, welcome to the stage. How are you doing? Are you all right?

Andy Watts: Very good, thank you. Yes, I hope you get better soon. Don't worry, the

Stephen Drew: adrenaline's pumping up and I'm getting into it. So Andy, for people who are not familiar with yourself, do you want to tell us a little bit about who you are, what you've been up to and where you are as well?

Andy Watts: Yep, so I'm living in Dubai now for 12 years.

Um, I did study in the UK. I worked in London about 12 years for that. Uh, and I spent four days a week practicing as an architect. I have a small firm here and partner with a young guy I met here 10 years ago. Um, and we're quite busy with some interesting projects. I became elected as the RIBA Gulf Chapter Chair a few years ago as well, to the start of COVID.

So I've been, you know, kind of voluntarily [00:03:00] doing, uh, What we can, putting on some events and building tours and webinars and now we can meet up socially again and things. I also teach at Heriot Watt University here. There are two RIBA accredited universities in the Gulf. No part two yet, that might change, but there's two doing part one.

Um, that's in the GCC. There's others in Egypt and Lebanon. Um, but yeah, there's, I teach at Heriot Watt University for about five years now, and they have a part one course.

Stephen Drew: Got you. All right, cool. So, and just so, and it's amazing what you've done now, and we can talk about that in a bit more detail. I'm really interested to know though, because you, you left the UK, right?

In like 2011. Can you tell us what, where that came about? And at the time. How was it pitched to you, the idea? Was it something you wanted to do, or did someone approach you with the idea, or were you headhunted for a job in Dubai? Um, [00:04:00]

Andy Watts: sort of both actually, but uh, um, I think, no, I don't normally give the honest answer to this, because it can get a bit personal, but I'll be honest here.

Uh, and I think because it's quite important in the current context and what I see in the UK. In the last 10, 12 years there, um, I saw a big change in financial crisis 2000s of eight, nine, um, in working in London as an architect. It was actually quite pleasant and fun before, and you could have a decent life even on a part two salary, which I was, um, the kind of atmosphere and mood changed after that.

I'd started for the first time reading about economics, politics, finance in England, but actually who's going to pay for this financial crisis? I think it's going to be all of us. I'm not sure if I want to be around for this. Uh, I wasn't very happy about conservatives coming to power either, to be honest.

Um, these, I was, I also thought, I've been in the UK all my life, this may be, I'd like to live somewhere else at least a few years. So let's start looking around. Um, and having done that, there was a few potential things happening, [00:05:00] but actually an old, um, manager asked me to come join him in Dubai, basically.

But so I'd already decided to change country, change location and was looking around and yeah, that may, yeah, around the same time that kind of led to somebody asking to join.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Now, there's a few myths, I'm sure, and also a few truths about working in Dubai in the Middle East. And so one of the first things that comes to mind is money and tax.

And now, because you've been truthful, um, and I appreciate you saying, well, are you going to give the honest answers? And it's just little old me and you and the live stream here, but that aside. So financially it's a more attractive proposition then than working in the UK. Is that true?

Andy Watts: Uh, basically, yes.

And right now, because the pound's gone down like a third since I came, or certainly 25 percent, [00:06:00] the currency's pegged to the dollar, so local salaries now sound even higher in UK terms, obviously relative to cost of living and things. I can give some examples, some benchmarks to help explain. Okay, so, um, and, but before, yeah, bear in mind it's different, a completely different world.

Uh, there's no tax. Well, no income tax. Your salary is not really taxed. There are a few taxes here and there, like on your rent is effectively a tax. There's VAT. But yeah, you're not getting income tax, national insurance, or anything coming out. So what you're paid is Kind of comes to you completely, um, and even if you leave your job, if you spend a few years, you're given something called a gratuity, which is a equivalent of like a pension plan.

They give you like a month or two salary, um, on top. So, uh, part one, um, we were certainly paying about 27, 28, 000 pounds a year equivalent, [00:07:00] um, but I know of part ones graduating here going up to 40, 000 pounds. working on the design management side. So, uh, and again, because that's tax free, that's kind of the equivalent of probably about 55, 60 in the UK.

Um, that's for part one, uh, with nearly a year or so experience. Again, a bit of variety might go slightly lower than that, but certainly like 28 to 30, 32 tax free should be possible part one.

Stephen Drew: Wow. Um, that's a big jump Andy to hear. I mean, I think that there's, there's interesting timing because the salary survey came out at the moment is kind of one of these campaigns in the UK.

And I think the upper end for a part one in the UK was 26, 000. Of course. You've got then all, all the tax involved. So it sounds quite lucrative in that front. Okay. Devil's advocate though, on the other side, because the, one of the things that I hear in Dubai, because some people they [00:08:00] work on a Saturday, is that right?

Or a Sunday? So the working week is six days, not seven. Is that wrong or is that right? No, that is wrong. . Okay, cool. I thought that, I dunno where I've got that from. Okay, so that's a myth de busted. Yeah.

Andy Watts: Yeah, I'll give more detail. I, maybe that came about because until a year ago, uh, the mid UAE used to work on a Sunday to Thursday week because Friday is a more holy day.

And then quite abruptly last December, it was announced that, um, it's now Monday to Friday, which is actually part of the process of becoming more and more aligned with international norms in many kinds of ways. Um, so that's, uh, operation tax coming in, um, minimum wage is coming in. So things are kind of moving along that direction.

So it moved to Monday to Friday. Actually, government employees, which is many of the big developers, are four and a half day week. They're supposed to finish Friday lunchtime. And one of the emirates is even a four day week, Monday to [00:09:00] Thursday. Um, now some, a bit different on site. If you're in a site role, you probably wouldn't expect to work six days, but there's probably the activity across the sites.

It stays And obviously there is a spec, I imagine like you Kate, there's a spectrum of offices. Some are working too hard, exploiting their workers and things and push to work most weekends. Some are actually well managed and more reasonable and just doing them Monday to Friday in a more typical working week.

Depends in that case, depend where you're working. So, but now since last January, Saturday, Sunday is a weekend. And for most people, some people, Friday afternoon as well.

Stephen Drew: Oh, there you go. I mean, it was while we were talking, Andy, Abadir says, that's crazy. That's what a part two would get here in the UK. So it is true.

There is, that big salary shift now.

Andy Watts: It gets more extreme as you get more. As you get more senior, it gets more extreme, actually. Go on. A part [00:10:00] two, and again, I know it's based on people I kind of know coming here, um, probably 40k for a part two is not unreasonable. I checked somebody who's employing a big company here, uh, he gave that kind of figure.

So that's 40k tax free for part two. And I know one with a few years experience actually gained 55, 000. I've got to be careful because, you know, in Switzerland, America, salaries are higher, New York's higher than the middle of nowhere in America. Every, uh, other bits of the UAE will be lower. Saudi salaries are actually even higher.

Um, so it is all relative, but actually the important thing, I'd say the cost of living here is actually about the same as the UK. It is quite different. Depends what you like doing. Um, generally entertainment is expensive. Uh, because it's said, I mean, if you come as a tourist, you'll probably find yourself fleeced.

Everything you would want to do is [00:11:00] very expensive. Um, alcohol is expensive. Golf is expensive, but uh, cycling is free. Swimming in the beach is free. Transport is very cheap, as in taxis and cars and things are cheap. But yeah, it's kind of all, all that things kind of skewed. And if you start getting into schools and things like that, more to the university.

But generally, I'd say the cost of living, although your salary is higher, your cost of living is similar to UK. And then there's a big difference also, you're not, you're not paying taxes. The higher that goes, the bigger kind of differential becomes.

Stephen Drew: While we were talking, Oz has said, I've worked in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, Abu Dhabi, forgive me Oz, I'm hallucinating today.

Um, and the standard of living is higher depending where you work. You can have very different experience. Pay is high. Work can be extreme. If you're ambitious, it's worth it. So. That's a well rounded account there. [00:12:00] So Andy, while you, we were talking there, there's a few things that you touched upon and I'd love for us to expand.

So there's a few really good employers, I'm sure, like everywhere, but also you mentioned that there. It can be a culture of exploitation. So what, what do you have to do that you have? Is it a case of you have to research where you want to work? Or is there companies that you generally have a reputation they want to avoid?

Or how, if I'm going to buy, do I make sure that I'm not going to be working crazy hours?

Andy Watts: Um, I think if you have any kind of contacts, you could ask in the region. I'll see if, you know, the Golf Chapter is just a community of members. We'd probably help out. I've often spoken to people moving over here to give some advice.

Um, I mean, there are here some of the big international firms in all big global cities and, uh, whether it's Atkins, Gensler, [00:13:00] AECOM, um, Foster has an office, Woods Faggot, um, you might have some kind of expectations of already, and Adus, all these kind of companies. There's also those some that are now quite big that are more maybe locally originated or broke off from a bigger company and started here, um, that you might not know about.

And. I mean, it's difficult because you won't get an honest answer from a website or anything. You probably have to try and find people on the inside, but even then, you know, someone can have a bad experience. The majority may have a better experience or vice versa. So I'd say tap into the Intel or the other thing is, if you are quite tempted to come, I mean, it is probably, I tell people, once you have one job here, it's much easier to get another job.

And you're probably, again, things are changing. There's some new laws about protecting. Employees and severance pay, things like that, um, is generally getting better, but it tends to be a bit more volatile and kind of hire and fire. So that's absolutely not good if you're, [00:14:00] if you're, but the other side is often it happens with engineers as well.

When one's firing, another one's hiring because there's just someone else has started a big project. And it's, you're more dependent on the economy itself, actually. Um, so it's probably more common to hop around a bit. There are some people that spend years in one company. Some tend to just join a company, do a project, do, and then it finishes.

And so they've managed to jump to something else. Um, but in that sense, if you found yourself in a company that wasn't a good fit, um, You could probably move to another one, especially if the market's good, like now, and in terms of visas and everything, it's got a little bit easier to do that as well.

Right. Got it. You have more freedom as an employee to jump around, there's some new visas that allow you to stay here and look for work, um, you have a bit more power than before.

Stephen Drew: Fair enough. I've got an interesting question that's come in while we were talking. Excuse me, I'm like, thank goodness the audience is asking [00:15:00] questions, Andy, and you're sharing a lot because you're making my job really easy at the moment.

Abadir again says, um, can you recommend the best way to apply for a job in Dubai? Do you need the RIBA Part 3 to do an architect role in Dubai? Both really interesting questions, so one is about qualifications, maybe as you said some practices put more stock in an ARB qualification, I don't know, but where would you begin finding a job?

I mean, you've got a practice and people can apply for your practice, but also if you were rocking up, how would you begin that search, Andy? Where's the best place to start?

Andy Watts: OK, I'm going to, I'll answer the second part of the question was maybe clearer to answer. Um, in that and often comes up to me between students and architects.

Here, there is no equivalent really of a RB or, uh, or even Reba here. Um, right. The title's not protected. So having part three is kind of legally meaningless. However, [00:16:00] it does have sustainability in the market to employ some things. Um, actually you don't, you can call yourself an architect even about part three here, um, because it, there's not the same protection of title.

Uh, which you tend to see obviously in, in the market. However, having, if someone comes there with Part 3, especially to some kind of international company, it's recognized that you're kind of, you know, in a management role position, ready, you have proper experience, you'll be in a bigger salary bracket and things like that, you'll be kind of slotted up quite a bit.

Um, similar to Part 1 and 2, it's kind of, there's so many other systems here as well, there's people coming of American qualifications or Indian or other ones, um, Australian things, So there's not the same ease to slot people in, but the Revit is kind of recognized, especially part one now because there's two schools, there's no part two, um, but the big companies certainly recognize it and they will kind of equate that to your knowledge and skills that they'd expect from it.

Um, so, Uh, that might answer it. So you don't need part three to be an [00:17:00] architect. Um, I won't get into things like, like there is kind of licensing, but it's really more about engineering and architecture. Um, you need a, really an engineer, registered engineer, partner, company to do something. If you start a small company, um, the best way to apply for a job in Dubai, I do recommend to people normally, if you're on the ground in Dubai, the Dubai address is a lot easier.

Um, that's quite commitment though, unless you have other reasons or ways to be here. Um, but being on the ground with that address and your CV will probably get more attention. They do tend to get quite, they subscribe to jobs, but at the moment the market's, uh, quite buoyant. And I know lots of companies are hiring, um, and if anyone's struggling a bit to find the right, the right people for their roles with good experience, um, there are some lists.

If you internet search, you'll find a list of the companies here. I mean, it's not a. Huge market, maybe only 20 30 names would come up. [00:18:00] That would be considered working for, um, so online research, no, I mean, I'm also often requests come through to the chapter through RIBA and we give some advice as well.

Nice. So, I mean, again, applying for a job, you, you know, from your, your background and other social topics and things. We did RIBA before. There is, you know, the, the networking way, obviously the best, um, there are adverts sometimes, there's agents, uh, there's sending an email in, but I, I know here the companies tend to get a lot of emails.

Uh, if you have the other ways are better, if you know somebody, uh, if you, you know, you know, friend, friend, anything, uh, or any institutional connection, um, or even just going, we did some office tours yesterday, actually my students and one of them said we actually like people showing up on our doorstep.

He acknowledged many offices don't like that, but he said that the CEO, he said he liked it because it shows commitment. Um, so, [00:19:00] uh, yeah, it depends a bit again, it depends where you're applying from and if you have any connection to the regional background for it's coming. I think the. If you're applying from the UK, it's always a little bit harder to think, am I really sure you're serious you want to come?

Yeah. So probably that's the hurdles to kind of say, actually, yes, I'm serious. And there's a way to cover letters, communicate that. I mentioned earlier that some people contacted that were coming through their partner's work and who were, and so they, they wanted to find an architect's job and they asked, how do I find an architect's job?

But that meant that they were committed to coming. They had an address, uh, that showed that they were here already. It was a step ahead.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, that, I think that's the same in the UK. I always recommend, Andy, if someone's, you know, in America or maybe they're in the Middle East, they want to get a job in the UK.

It is a commitment, but actually coming to the UK makes a big difference. And the other one I always say is get a mobile phone. In that area codes then, because I think that really [00:20:00] also shows a lot of commitment and it's not that expensive to do anyways now, isn't it? So you get a local mobile, you put it on the phone, you put it on the CV and that makes a big difference.

Andy Watts: And there is something now, I mean, you can come as a tourist for, uh, depending on your passport, but certainly up to three months and maybe more. Look, um, and there's now a job seekers visa where you come specifically to look for work.

Stephen Drew: Oh, okay, cool. Do you know why we were talking? I've got a flowery Of messages that have come in all good, but I'm just going to quickly go through a few of them.

And so, um, Irfan says as a chartered architectural technologist, are there any positions available for someone of my new build developer background? So architectural technicians and technologists, Andy, is there a space for, um, those who are not architects, uh, in, in the Middle East? [00:21:00] I

Andy Watts: Yeah, I mean, the practice is different to different, but they tend to sometimes separate between the concept stage, delivery stage, and the delivery will be putting a lot of technical things together for the documentation and going through coordination, scheme design things.

And so those kind of companies are often hiring. Um, and I would have thought, yes, there's a lot of hiring at the moment. I mean, something I might come to later is that the, although Dubai is busy in hiring, probably Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia is, um, building a lot and hiring a lot of people there as well. If there's different connections there, I mean, there's the RIBA committee has a, has a representative there, many RIBA members have gone over there to become design managers and work in companies there, but there's a lot of momentum there.

But there's also, that's also feeding a lot of work from Dubai, where it's still a little bit easier to live. Um, so I would say that's a yes. I don't know that area quite as much, but [00:22:00] uh, at the moment it a lot depends on the, when things go slow. It is a roller coaster. There's some bad year years depending on the politics and economy at the time.

Yeah. In a tough time. It's hard to get a job anywhere You can, you've gotta be quite lucky and there's always site working things when things are busy, like now it's a lot easier. Some companies that we need six people now . Yeah. Things need to go quick.

Stephen Drew: I was going to ask you actually, because I know you really enjoy, you know, the fact you relocated, you enjoy where you are and you wouldn't change it.

Is there some things you miss though about the UK? Come on, right? We've got some good qualities over here.

Andy Watts: Yeah. Um, but now London, uh, I miss some of the cultural sides of London, like the, you can go to a concert every night, different, probably gallery show every, every weekend, whatever. Um, Dubai has got a bit of that, obviously, but it's, you know, it's more of an event.

Guns and Roses came a couple of years ago. It was like the whole city went. Oh, wow, really? [00:23:00] More of a rare event. Yeah. Um, yeah, they have some constant things, but yeah, it's every now and then rather than all the time. Um, but I mean, certainly here, there's, It's maybe, again, surprisingly cosmopolitan. Uh, it's apparently the second most cosmopolitan city in the world or something.

So, there's actually a lot of British people here. I can't remember if it's a few hundred thousand or something. Um, if you want to live in a bit of kind of, there's even a place called Irish Village which is basically pubs.

Stephen Drew: I really, I'm not surprised.

Andy Watts: Yeah, um, that has 80s bands playing, cause there's so many older people here.

Um, there's some things like that if you feel like you're missing home a bit. I guess the rain, don't rain, no rain. Yeah, I miss a bit of the sense of humor and some of the activities you can do at home. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah,

Stephen Drew: well, well, makes, makes sense. I've actually got a few flurries of more stuff that's coming.

I can't keep up Andy, you're actually quite popular. Yeah. [00:24:00] Um, I'll quickly go through it. Oz says, we'd love to keep in touch with your LinkedIn. He has some ambitions to repair, um, and returning to Dubai. And there's a Revit expert with BIM services. Maybe we can touch up on that really quickly then Andy, in terms of Revit, BIM.

And so what's it like out there in terms of software set up and most companies tend to be AutoCAD or have you got, because in London, Revit now is, uh, the pre. dominant platform which is used and so what skill sack is really attractive if you're applying in Dubai at the moment?

Andy Watts: Um, Revit is the dominant platform massively for the production side.

Uh, what's maybe a bit more flexible is on that concept stage work, the early stages, you tend to get offices that are Rhino based with a bit of Grasshopper and Hinges or they might be SketchUp based, especially doing master planning. Um, and then obviously [00:25:00] AutoCAD is supporting all these things, but so Revit is dominant.

It's more of the design stage, is it Rhino or SketchUp?

Stephen Drew: Very interesting. Yeah, I've, I, I worked with, um, a practice in London, which has international projects and their setup is Revit, Rhino, and a bit of Grasshopper. for the front end, you know, master plan design. I've got a few more things here and Abadir says thanks for answering.

And Julian says greetings from London. So you've got an international fan base. It seems you need to come back a bit as well. But Leo, who I was actually fortunate enough to be at one of his events last night. So Leo is an architect, but also designs a lot in the metaverse. So maybe. A final frontier, right?

Not just the Middle East, it's the Metaverse. And he asks, um, do you know much about this new world? Do you hear much about the Metaverse out there? I know you've got a lot, [00:26:00] um, the design, um, you've got the expos, which are amazing, but, uh, what about the Metaverse, Andy? Is the people talking about it, um, in Dubai or not yet?

Andy Watts: Uh, yes. Um, not me. I'm not an expert. You're not interested. We did some AI events with RIBA last week. But Metaverse, it is, and I go through all the trade shows and things with my role. And now they often have a Metaverse discussion. And there's several architects I've known here for years that are now Metaverse focused.

One or two firms saying yes, they're getting fully into it. Um, if he drops me a message, I can even mention them, uh, Metaverse, L, uh, Hospital, but in the bigger picture, what's worth bearing in mind is that the UAE and now Saudi, they're aware that they're kind of young countries, uh, I shouldn't know, it's either 45 or 50 years old, but you know, they're not, they're younger than most, most people, uh, um, [00:27:00] and they're to kind of make a mark on the world.

Um, and they tend to lean in a lot in this emerging technology. As a way to do that, um, because they won't have a 200 year old institution like RIBA or, you know, in the same when it comes to science and medicine and things. So, it's interesting when they decide to look at the future. It's why they have a Museum of the Future.

Um, and there are actually many emerging technologies, ag tech. Um, AI, uh, Coding, all those kind of things. And that does cover, uh, Metaverse, and what I've read today on blockchain, it's becoming a bit of a blockchain hub. Again, I'm not an expert. I'm just reporting what I read, but the UAE is becoming a bit of a, they want to be a kind of safe haze, a safe haven, a hotspot for, um, blockchain technology.

So, I do see in the events happening and things. Metaverse comes up a lot, but any kind of emerging technology does get a lot of interest here because they're key to kind of be big players in these emerging fields.

Stephen Drew: [00:28:00] Yeah, fair enough. I, um, I was going to ask another thing, actually. So what I was thinking about now, very cool, and I, it makes a lot of sense, actually, that Metaverse would be such a subject because I think Middle East, the Gulf, Dubai and everything, you know, you're not shy in terms of buildings, the Expo, everything, everything's quite interesting, spectacular, a spectacle for the eyes.

What I was going to ask, though. is I wouldn't know where to begin, right? So years ago, when I was Welsh, well, I am Welsh now, what am I on about? But when I was living in Wales, I studied architecture in London, and I was like, babe in the woods coming to London, right? And looking back, it's one of the best things I did, but I was a little bit naive.

Now, if I was like, right, I want to move to, um, I want to move out of this country. You mentioned this community of expats and so on and so forth in different parts of the Middle East and the Gulf. Where would be a good [00:29:00] way, a good place to dip your toes? Maybe like a busy city, you know, where you've got that community like you mentioned.

Where's a good place for you to start your search if you will relocate into the Middle East?

Andy Watts: To the Gulf, um, I mean, Dubai is the most, it's the easiest. And, um,

Stephen Drew: yeah,

Andy Watts: uh, there's the most amount of foreigners, international community, uh, here and probably the most familiar, easy, easy to settle into. It really probably feel like, you know, Miami to an American with a few camels around.

Um, yeah, it's Dubai then kind of Abu Dhabi and, uh, Saudis change, changing a lot, change a huge amount in the last five, six years. And it's kind of moving that direction. Um, yeah, but there's still, there's some things you can't quite do there. You probably can soon. Um, and then I, well, I know people in Saudi are very happy that they live in a kind of closed compound with a very tight community.

Um, and they go for a [00:30:00] net of drink in the embassy where they're allowed to. Um, but yeah, that's probably Saudi's heading that way. That's a bit more frontier for now. Um, yeah. But yeah, de de Dubai is the easiest, but any, uh, than anywhere else in the uae like Abu Dhabi, the likely destination have the, the own character charm.

There's some, the other ones really are , uh, cre, . Um, but probably, yeah, I think most people say the, the easiest in terms of. Fitting in would be Dubai.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, makes sense. And that rings true because there was a lot of roles I used to work in recruitment in Dubai and, and you're right also there, you've got the Hopkins architects.

You've got all the, as you say, the Brit, you know, the British large companies or international companies also out in Dubai. So there you go. I love that. It's Miami with a camel. That's a new one, isn't it? I think. I think that sums it up. I've got one or two more questions if you've [00:31:00] got a little bit more time, Andy.

Andy Watts: Awesome.

Stephen Drew: And so, Abadi again says, I'm considering relocating to Dubai. So, hey, you're definitely onto a winner. That's exactly what Andy said. One last question is, how is the lifestyle and the work culture, how is it different to working in London?

Andy Watts: Um, let's see, I mean, work wise, well, I mean, the type of project is very different.

Um, it's, uh, bigger, faster, uh, a lot, you know, a lot bigger scale and some quite crazy projects and, you know, all new build on new site. You're not the contacts that you do in London. There's not the kind of, the planning process is more technical. There's not so much about visual and approval things. Um, So, but otherwise, you know, uh, especially the more established international, it's probably quite similar to London in terms of how they work as an office.[00:32:00]

The culture said, I think there'll be a big, there's, there's some culture work, cultures. I hear very positive things make people quite happy more. I don't hear bad things. There's some, I do hear bad things. They'll, they'll all vary. Um, lifestyle is probably the biggest difference actually, if you think about outside the office.

Um, and then, I mean, I was worried doing this. The, uh, my others in the region, some of you know, like Merriam and the Reba committee, the UK kind of misrepresents the Middle East with its tabloid press. Um, and it's like, if you only see these Instagram influencers and news stories, my thing is all like beaches and, uh, parties and things when it's actually the people working, um, especially their families.

They kind of, they, they have a garden, they go to, um, uh, many people go cycling in the desert. There's 150 kilometer long cycle track. Um, there's some walks in the mangroves Um, trips to the beach. It's probably, [00:33:00] I mean, it's just a different kind of city. It's sunny all the time. Summer is so, I mean, uh, summer is so hot that you've got to be different and stay indoors.

There's actually quite a lot of things indoors. If you have children, there's lots of huge play areas with soft play, bouncing stuff, and some educational, very good educational areas. Um, but many people get away in the summer as long as they can, if they can. In the winter months, like now, it's very pleasant, hardly ever rains, so it's quite a lot of outdoorsy stuff, and people tend to find something they like, whether that's meeting their friends and having a drink, or something sport based, um, or just time with their family in their, um, I mean, so people tend to live in, like, communities, and it's quite carved up, like, I mentioned Miami, it's what I think of American later cities, like, quite defined by the car and the road, you know?

You have different segments of the city connected by very quickly connected by road, but you definitely can't walk between things. Um, and once you're in your zone, there's quite a lot of things to do within there. So people tend to, uh, spend a lot of time living [00:34:00] in their, the community, which will have like a gym and shops and things.

Some have a park. I could try and show some pictures now if this would be the time.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, sure. We'll, we'll, let's go for it. Okay. Yeah, I mean,

Andy Watts: so let's hope it doesn't crash the thing, but this was from a, let's go present share screen. It's okay. Uh, window. Okay. I hope this doesn't crash anything. This is my presentation from before we go.

Um, okay. So this is showing a park that has a weekly festival. The bottom left is a very kind of international cosmopolitan community. The nicest beach on the top left is called Kite Beach because of the kite surfing. I know surfing sometimes is free. It's been a bit commercialized with shopping and play parks and things around it.

And the top right is a cycle track in the desert, kind of 20 30 minutes from the main Dubai. [00:35:00] If you have a bike, you can just go and cycle. Now this just to show, um, there's obviously the high rise residential areas, but even within the city, there's some like low rise resi like this, um, which is just, these are townhouses with people living with their garden cars and going to school and work and stuff.

And yeah, probably more green than people expect. A government initiative to really green the city over the next ten years.

Stephen Drew: That's Yeah. I often, I don't know why, but I always think of mission impossible and Tom Cruise in the Sandstorm. And so it's nice to see the greenery as you say, you know.

Andy Watts: Yeah, and so this is showing, there is that, that strip of towers like in that film is basically down that main road, which goes all the way to Abu Dhabi.

It's quite a kind of road based linear city, but it connects the different parts of the palm above there, which also many people live on and has a park down the middle and beaches everywhere. Uh, the bit on the top left is called [00:36:00] Marina where many, um, new arrivals, international people find it easier to settle in because it's, there's lots of hotels, bars, nightlife things, but there's a few areas like that are very much high rise.

But maybe not. It's got a beach in there. I wouldn't say nothing at ground level. And then the, but then you can see like, just like other side of the road, not far away, is a whole area of, um, uh, you know, I guess it's the Burbia in the UK or America of just villas, townhouses. Many architects probably live somewhere like this if they have a family.

If they don't have a family, they probably live, uh, nearer the metro and the activities along the main spine. And I'll show you this. This is called Sustainable City. Sustainable City. There's other versions coming up. These are for growing food, these little pods. There's all these townhouses with solar panels.

Um, and there's no cars. So, I have been here once as a visitor and there's, you know, people, kids cycling around. They've got an animal welfare place. [00:37:00] Um, and yes, there's also, there's quite, there's some pressure of sustainability that is often not meeting the ambitions, but there is quite a drive and intention to be so.

I think I'll stop my sharing, but that was, that was to give an idea of The lifestyle isn't made, it's just, the people that come on holiday is quite a different thing. Um, when you live here, it's quite, quite different. Stop that.

Stephen Drew: Well, it definitely did, um, shake my perspective. I'm a little bit disappointed that Tom Cruise isn't knocking around.

Um, that being said, it does look quite a nice place to live. What I was going to say now, Andy, because I think it's a good time to wind down, And, and I appreciate everything that, that you've said here in a bit, we'll talk about where people can find you and connect with you. But just before we do that, I like to throw it back because it's, it's unfair for the, and then, you know, a conversation or an interview to be one way, it should be more like a conversation.

So [00:38:00] do you have any questions, um, for me, uh, it's been a little while since we, um, we did our last collaboration with the RIBA, right? Mm-Hmm. .

Andy Watts: Um, I mean, I would be curious to know from your side, being in the uk, what is the perception of Dubai? Um, and it might be, I assume, you know, most of 'em know some that went on holiday.

They know a bit. But, uh, what is, what is the percent you think in the UK of, let's not go into the rest Middle East, get more complicated, but start with Dubai, which is, yeah, Dubai interest.

Stephen Drew: I, it's interesting because in recruitment, I've worked with a lot of people who want to go to Dubai, also some architects that are in Dubai, and also, um, then thinking of maybe coming back.

Now, I think, um, everyone enjoys Dubai. I think, as you say, the perception is, you know. It's a nice place to be. The one bit that always sticks in my mind though is I think that when someone's gone to Dubai, they struggle to come back. So for example, I will have a senior [00:39:00] architect who's like, yeah, yeah, I'm really interested in coming back to London.

Yeah, just find me a job at 70 grand. And I would be like, Jeff or whoever, Jeff, this is not possible. It's a different world, you know? And they're like, really? Well, it doesn't stack up financially for me. And I always say, well, London isn't going to change. So I think that there is a massive difference in, in, in the salaries.

And I think that it would seem that once you go to Dubai, it's quite hard for you to come back and adjust financially, economically, in terms of your original question, what is the perception? I think the perception is good pay. Good city, as you say, expensive alcohol, that seems to pop up a lot, but also, um, work hard.

I think there would be, I think that is the perception that, you know, you, you get paid a lot, but you, you've got to work hard and, and, and it's quite interesting hearing what you say about it as well. And what I like about this conversation is honestly, [00:40:00] you are an employer. As well as, you know, having been an employee in, in Dubai, so kind of see the both ends of the scale.

But yeah, that's the perception.

Andy Watts: Okay. And in terms of lifestyle as well, though, is it seen as a good, I mean, the other thing that does come up is, uh, some people think that, you know, woman can't work or have to cover up in things, which is completely untrue. Right. Uh, there's, in terms of working, there's no barriers.

It's kind of totally equal. Right. If anything, they get more opportunity in some, in some scenarios and client side and things. Um, um, yeah, or that it's kind of more restricted than it is actually.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I, um, I haven't heard that so much. I tend to think, well, it's interesting because I think if someone's halfway thinking about to buy, then they're on that emotional [00:41:00] journey where they're probably going to go through with it.

I, I tend to, I tell you what though, in recruitment, I have also seen a lot of window shoppers, you know what I mean? Where people, you know, I go, Oh, I'd like the idea of that. But I mean, one of the questions that popped up here is perhaps you have a wife and a kid, right? And you're a, you're a man. It's hard to just pick up your bags and go.

Um, there's a lot of logistics involved. So who knows? I mean, I've never thought about moving to Dubai. I'm not against the idea, but as a Welsh man, moving from Swansea to London was a big deal at the time, you know?

Any other questions you have for me, Andy?

Andy Watts: I don't think so. I mean, the person then in fact, yeah, if you have family, you have to consider that as well. I didn't talk about schools and things, but if anybody wants to get in touch, drop, connect on LinkedIn, I can follow up because each circumstance is different.

It is someone a different for a graduate or for a [00:42:00] couple or someone with children. Um, as you mentioned, going back to the, to the UK or other countries. It's sometimes family that I find brings people back. Um, I know it used to be seen that you come here for like two or three years, you make some money and go back.

Um, recently though, it's, it's probably got more, more and more livable over the last 10, 20 years. It's probably come stay longer. And as you said, I do know some people that left and then came back. Um, but yeah, I think it's, and some

Stephen Drew: people

Andy Watts: might not like it, but yeah, if they, if they like it, they're either the, might be a financial side of the pit, yeah, it's different though.

Sometimes the people get a bit homesick or they decide they want the children. Growing up back in the home country later, and there's different reasons.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, yeah. Well, I tell you what, on the bucket list is going out to the expo, because I [00:43:00] think that would be a really nice way to get a proper introduction.

But I'm going to take you up on the offer, and if I am popping down in the area, you have to take me to the Irish Island or whatever it's called, because I love 80s music. The Irish Village. Irish Island sounds better. Come on, they missed the marketing trick there. Um, brilliant. Okay, Andy, so where can people find you?

They can reach out to you on LinkedIn, I'm guessing?

Andy Watts: Yeah, that's the method I use the most. Yeah, I think I'm Andy Shaw on LinkedIn. And they'll see RIBA Gulf Chair and make it appear. Um, and if they send a message, we'll try and catch up the next week or two.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. Well, I'll give you a round of applause for that.

Thank you so much, Andy. I really appreciate it. You've been an absolute gentleman. Hopefully I haven't been coughing too much all the way through this. People can reach out to you on LinkedIn. Thank you so much. I'm going to end the live stream now. Andy, stay on the stage one sec while I just switch it all off, but thank you as well for tuning in.

And if you do have any questions for me [00:44:00] or Andy, drop us a message on LinkedIn. Thank you so much, everyone. Take care. Bye bye.