Architecture Recruitment - Find out What REALLY happens behind the scenes

0019 - Architecture Recruitment - Find out What REALLY happens behind the scenes
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Jack Moran: [00:00:00] Hello,

Tuesday, 5 p. m. It's the 6th of October. Welcome to another episode of the podcast from the Architectural Social. I'm your host, Jack Moran, joined by Stephen Drew and Will Ridgway. Boys, how are we doing today? I'm all right. How are you? Yeah, not too bad. I mean, it's been a horrible week for the weather in London, hasn't it?

It's been awful. We're definitely going towards the winter is coming.

Stephen Drew: You think you think you've had it bad? My roof's been leaking. I've had the builders around all day. Absolute, absolute nightmare. Juggling my job. As a lot of people right now in the UK, you've got your kids, you've got everything kicking on and you still got to keep working.

We still got to do it. So, um, hey, the show never stops. That's why we're here, isn't it? The show

Jack Moran: doesn't stop.

Stephen Drew: And

Jack Moran: so it's going to be an interesting topic we've gone for today, Stephen. So by our [00:01:00] professions, we are all recruitment consultants, aren't we? And it looks like today you have decided to speak a little bit about the behind the scenes, which I think is going to be very interesting for, you know, especially candidates, um, you know, people we work with to see what actually goes on behind the curtains.

So why did you go for this one, Steve?

Stephen Drew: Oh, okay. So there's mixed feelings because there's this funny thing in terms of recruitment where I don't think behind the scenes talked about and before, because I used to work in architecture and recruitment, you don't really know what fully happens in the process.

So there's this kind of mystery behind it of what actually goes on and everyone's perceptions very different. So. If there was such a disclaimer, I could put on you, because I kind of, I haven't got one now, but I would say that this is an informative, uh, an informed opinion piece. So this is, this is my opinion, having worked in recruitment, having worked in a few places, as well as working in architectural practice.

And if [00:02:00] I bang my background here, it's because I got a new green screen and it's a bit close to my chair. So if it seems like the world is moving, it's because I got a new background and I need to get it working. Okay. So recruitment, what happens in recruitment? What is recruitment? So in general sense, recruitment is what's needed in a company when they need to fulfill a role for a job.

So to bring recruitment in terms of architecture, and now an architecture practice is what is called in recruitment. So recruitment jargon for an architecture practice is called a client. And the client is someone in the architectural practice, which has a need. Okay, so general sense is, for instance, uh, big architectural practice, we have Grimshaw, Falsters, EPR, whoever, they win a project.

Hooray! And they've got a few key members of staff and they need someone else to join the team because suddenly You need a certain expertise. Maybe you want to bolster the team, maybe the project's big and you [00:03:00] need someone on board or, uh, perhaps someone's left, such as the way of life, such as the way of employment.

So in recruitment is when you need someone to fulfill a need. So an architectural practice will begin a recruitment process, which is. The act of finding someone when they have a particular need. Okay, and so there's a few ways in which a company will go about recruitment. They will either look for someone direct, which is when nice headphones will.

Um, they will, they will, he's not, he's not cleared up, isn't he? So I could say anything right now. Well, can you hear me? Hello? Yeah, I can. My, my Bluetooth speakers went, Oh, no, I can't hear anything. What you said. Don't worry. So I was just saying that in terms of recruitment, the recruitment process. Okay. So there's a few ways in which a company goes about finding someone.

Okay. They will, they will come put [00:04:00] a job online. They can put it on their website and they can have an email. And so the term that is used in again, recruitment jargon for that is direct recruitment. Okay. So it's like, I've got to practice. I need to find someone you put a job out. Okay. And what happens with that is that you will get people apply for it.

And, and the relevance to the role. Can be questionable and it can take time. So if you put another in this current market because there's a lot of people looking a market is the jargon for people looking for jobs, the job market, how many people are on the market, the act of finding a job or hiring someone is called market.

So the jargon buster we've talked about client, which is an architectural practice. We talked about the marketplace, so direct marketing. Okay, is the best way for a company that was probably the immediate way for a company to go about recruitment that is in theory, efficient in theory, it's direct in theory, it should be the best way because you think, [00:05:00] Hey, I put an ad out, someone applies for my role.

Okay. Now what you will find as a candidate, you will find, and candidate is the other jargon, which is you the job seeker. So if you think of the apprentice and you're all competing for Alan Sugar, uh, in terms of the job that you are a candidate and in this analogy, Alan Sugar is the client and he kind of goes, should you be right for the role?

Is this, are you, are you the best candidate? So if Alan Sugar is looking. He will put out a job on the job market. Now, what happens is behind the scenes is that Alan Sugar is busy running his company. Norman Foster is busy at the top of Foster and Partners, and there'll be a system down below him. Um, or not.

And what happens is, is that when you put the application there, sometimes your application can get lost in direct. Or what will happen is that they will get a lot of applications and they will be unfiltered. So your fantastic CV can get lost in that process. And [00:06:00] Actually, interviewing people, interviewing, uh, you and a few other people who are right for the role, say now there's an architect role and you're an architect and you've applied for this role, actually, when going through that process takes time out of their day.

Okay. Sifting through CVs to find if you are relevant or not is, um, you, you could be amongst, especially in this current market, 100, 200 CVs. And so recruitment takes time. It takes a lot, a lot of time. It takes time in, uh, in, in different situations. Whereas now it's a recession. They get a lot of applications and even.

During the time when things are less than a recession, which is a good time for job seekers to be looking, the act of finding a job can take a lot of time. So what is a recruitment consultant? And this is the big thing. So the recruitment consultants goal, uh, in terms of [00:07:00] recruitment, and this is my opinion, but we'll see what you guys think here as well, is that a.

Good recruitment consultant should be able to identify an architectural practices need on a project, learn about that company, and then seek the right person for the role. Go out and, and kind of matchmake like that beautiful marriage, matchmake the right kind of person to that. Position. Now, that is the, the crux of what a recruitment consultant is because we're kind of in the middle of everything.

So the thing is though, is that when you are in different times of the economy, the balance changes.

So in 2014, 2015, which is in between now, so smack bang in the middle of now and the last global recession, there was a [00:08:00] big surge to find people, uh, good architects who use Revit and a typical, oops, sorry, I'm banging everything around. Better be careful. So a typical person that I would go out and look for during that time was To find for a company, someone that has really, really good Revit skills.

It was really, really hard. So to find someone that used BIM was passionate and kind of would match the company's DNA so that when I would meet people and find that I would go out and look for these people and I would speak to people, have fantastic conversations, and if they had that skill set, then. It was like identifying really good talent with someone with really good potential.

And I, you would naturally rally behind their cause and go like, well, Richway, I think you're absolutely amazing. And I can see you working at a few places. And so what a good recruit consultant then would do is pair the. Companies they were thinking off with wills ability. [00:09:00] Okay. And get them, I get them in front of companies, get their attention.

Now in this current climate, it's shifted because what's happened is there are less jobs. on the market and there's very niche requirements. So the role of a recruitment consultant right now is completely dramatically changed. And that's why I wanted to do this today because I don't think, uh, recruitment consultants are upfront about the current market.

Okay. So the job market in terms of that analogy I used earlier of how many jobs are around there, there are less jobs. And so the, the briefs that I have right now. They, the briefs is basically what the, the client, what Alan Sugar or the architectural practice has asked me to find for a particular project.

They will be. A very niche. So in 2014, you had architects, you had been coordinators, you had these specific, specific niche skill sets, and it [00:10:00] was about showcasing someone's genius in front of these amazing companies and grabbing their attention. Now it's the opposite. Now it's about, uh, I take instructions.

I take jobs from companies and they are like, Steve, I need you to find, I need you, Will and Jack to find someone who has worked four years on hotels, four years with Rabbit and these construction stages. And if anyone doesn't fit that right now, as brutal as it sounds, there's a lot of demand for the role.

So I have to spend all my time finding someone bang on that point. And the reason that is because it's what's called in a jargon, a client market. So now is a client market as in an architectural practice naturally, because there is. Unfortunately, less people with jobs right now, they have more choice.

They have way more choice on who they can hire. Therefore, the [00:11:00] balance, you imagine it like a balance, the balance is in the client's favor. Now, there's no malice to that. What I mean, the balance in their favor is there's more choice, there's more demand for the role. And what that means is. right now is that a recruitment consultant in terms of recruitment, think of them as a good recruitment consultant would be upfront and honest about the rules they have, and they will be transparent.

And they can say, I've got this hotel role right now. And truth be told, probably not the right fit for it, but I can see that you are talented. You need to keep on. The search yourself. That is the truth. What you can't do right now is you can't afford to wait around one recruitment consultant. And the best thing to do is have upfront and transparent, uh, conversations say, what roles have you got on right now?

What would be relevant? Here's my CV. Here's my portfolio. And you to tell the recruitment consultant right now, exactly what your skillset is. And you say, if you've got anything like that, you let me know straight away. [00:12:00] And then you spend your energy and you identify. Uh, jobs directs, like we touched upon a little bit earlier, you keep an eye out for jobs posted you or even better, like all the podcasts we've done all the webinars before you keep in touch with companies and direct, you have to go direct to companies.

You have to go above and beyond and get in contact with the companies. Even before an ad's posted and you make all your information to a recruitment consultant like me so that when a job comes up and I get briefed by a company to find because they've just won a project, they've just won a residential scheme, though I know you're there.

Ready, CV ready, portfolio ready, tip top ready to go, pouncing on it. And that is how recruitment works right now. If you are waiting on the phone for a recruitment consultant to get back to you, you're going to be, you could be waiting for a long time. [00:13:00] Okay. There's a chance you can't wait around for one job right now because projects could start, projects could be canceled.

You have to be realistic with the circumstance. You have to understand that this is what is called quote unquote, jargon again, a client's market. Literally, if that architectural practice gets a project in, then they will look for someone. And they will probably begin to look for direct and then use recruitment consultants that they trust, that they have rapport with, and the recruitment consultants, which are reputable, reputable.

Yeah. And so this goes to my other point. Sorry, boys. I know I'm going off on one here, but hopefully it's not. Okay. The other thing that is going on to is recruit and consultants, quality recruitment consultants, because we touched the pot. We were having a nice chat before this Jack about the perceptions of recruitment consultants.

And I think, [00:14:00] think the best analogy for a recruitment consultant. I'm trying to steer away from the analogy of a state agent, because I hopefully, because everyone goes, ah, a state agent. And I think we got to joke and address the elephant in the room that I think a lot of people have had experiences with recruitment consultants, but they're like, that recruitment consultant.

told me a bunch of lies, sold me down the river and wasn't truthful. And unfortunately that can completely happen because the reality is the recruitment process, which I talked about, is that we are in between the candidates and the clients. And sometimes mistakes happen. I've made lots of mistakes. They do happen and you learn from it.

And the other thing that can happen is you've got to realize that the process is quite messy. And, uh, as in, It's organizing people, it's organizing projects and organically stuff can sometimes go out of our control, but then also the quality of a good recruitment consultant, uh, can show through and I'm, the more and more I do this, the more and [00:15:00] more I've done recruitment for, uh, longer periods of time, I think that being connected as the.

I think there is something that is interesting and important about that. And it's true that there is something about connections, but connections come from over time. A quality recruitment consultant being honest with a candidate, sometimes saying some, some things which are. awkward and they don't want to hear.

Like right now, I have to tell people, sorry, I'm a bit slow replying to certain mails because I get a lot of messages right now. So thank you for your patience. Um, I probably don't have a role for you right now. As soon as I do, I will let you know. And that's the truth. And it's not saying that someone's not right for the role.

Uh, so that's We use correction that it's not saying that someone's not skilled enough or they're not talented. It's not just that I have [00:16:00] to look for this requirement right now because that is what I'm hired to do to find a few particular companies at the right kind of person. Okay, so being up front and transparent as a recruitment consultant is important, and I think that what I'd like for people to think about here is that when you've used a recruitment consultant or you're speaking to a recruitment consultant, you need to think about, um, you need to think about who they are, how do they look at them?

All right. Have a little look at their background. If they worked in architecture, fine. That's can be useful. More importantly, though, have a little look at the track record of the recruitment consultant. Have they got any LinkedIn recommendations? Have they been recommended to you with a mouth? That is the big, big thing.

Cause yeah, it helps that I worked in architecture, but that is. secondary to doing a good job. And so, and, and, and what you will find in terms of recruitment is that some recruitment consultants, it's exactly the same as in [00:17:00] architecture. It's exactly the same as winning clients. Okay. If you do a good job, you get repeat work, you get referrals.

And sometimes we've all dropped the ball. And I think that. What I've learned is that by being honest over time, you generally, and, and delivering or trying to find the right person for the right role is that people, and having upfront conversations about what is the right company, then when I have helped someone join a company, they stay longer.

Okay. So that is all from having upfront conversations about opportunities. So when, if you're a job seeker right now, and look, if you're in the chat guys, feel free to ask any questions, any questions while we're here, this is what it's all about. But when you're looking and you're thinking in recruitment, you've got to think of what's happening right now.

I want, I think my advice would be to everyone here to. Review and have a little look at the recruitment consultant. Think about it like selecting an [00:18:00] architect. Think about who you want to represent you, who is going to show you in the best light. And then if you have a chat with them, and there's not enough roles right now, take that on the chin as, as, that's got nothing to do with your skill set and ability.

That's because of circumstance. But make sure. That you, you are ready for the opportunity. So you're going to get that CV and portfolio, and you're going to get it over to the recruitment consultant. And then, and then while you're doing that, so you've thought about a few recruitment consultants. You've, you've selected the few that you've got.

Keep up to date with them once a week or something like that. And if you've got a job on right now, or you've been put forward for something, keep in touch with that. But what I want you to do is also focus on applying to certain companies direct. Okay. And you can keep in contact with that recruitment consultant that you have genuine rapport with throughout your career.

Sometimes I've spoken to someone three years ago, and then I get them a job because [00:19:00] situations change, positions change, and roles change. And so You can over time develop a rapport with recruitment consultants with, uh, and with companies. So to summarize a little bit of what I've said in terms of the picture, I give my opinion on what recruitment as a big process is.

This kind of messy thing that we all talk about. Oh, my background's gone wild again. It's like a bit like, it's a bit like on a pirate ship. Yes. And I keep, I keep feeling like I'm on a ship. Look, here it goes again. So all of my sales. And you can make

Will Ridgway: stuff that like you're on a ship. If you've got a green screen.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Oh yeah. I need to turn off of that. Right. Yeah. So that's what I think about recruitment. I think that that's the general summary of it. And in terms of what a recruitment consultant is, that is how, what I think their role is, and what I thought it was really important to do this right now is to acknowledge the current market so that you, um, everyone that's currently looking for a job.

can utilize a recruitment [00:20:00] consultant the best way, but pursue recruitment direct as well as through a few people. You might find that you apply for a few companies direct and then we, me and you speak about a role and we put you forward and I get you an interview. Right. Okay. What I don't want is people waiting on the phone.

for someone and getting frustrated and you especially the truth is if you you if you are someone unfortunately newer to the industry if you at the start of your career or if you just moved to London and you don't have UK experience okay the best person to help you is yourself a recruitment consultant right now it's like And what I said is probably looking for someone that's done three to four years of experience or on a particular project.

There's a certain requirement. So if you are entering the job industry, or you have a lack of UK experience, or you have a [00:21:00] lack of experience in industry, you can still get a job. Okay. So you not saying you can't get a job. Everyone's done it. It's going to be tough, especially right now, but you can do it.

And the chances are, it's going to be sending more CVs, casting their net further afield, and then constantly keeping an eye on them applications and doing it direct. Boys. Gentlemen, my fellow colleagues, my throat is getting sore, Jack. I need that. I need that drink over there. What do you think though? I kind of, sorry, I felt like I had to get a lot off my chest and I hope that was a good intro.

Um, what do you think? Catch his

Jack Moran: breath.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Well, help me, help me, help me brief you.

Will Ridgway: All right. Yeah. So, um, you covered a lot, you covered a lot in [00:22:00] that, but they're all very important points to bring up. I think, um, particularly now, um, you know, maybe you could, you could get away with relying on a recruiter a year or two ago when there was you know, not many, um, when there was lots of jobs available, um, and so that we can help you in that sense.

But now, because there's, you know, the market is sorry, the, you know, the amount of jobs available at the moment has shrunk significantly. We are only being tasked to find specific and, uh, niche skill sets. And so when we, when we say to someone, Oh, we don't. You know, you're not quite right for this role.

It's not because you haven't got, uh, you know, you yourself are not a good architect. It's because you haven't, you, it's because we're looking for a very specific skill set where they have three to four years experience. But that doesn't mean you can't find yourself a job because there's plenty of jobs out there that Uh with practices that aren't using agencies, [00:23:00] you know, they're looking for direct applications and so it's up to you to find yourself a role But have also recruited in the background So that if anything comes through their end, they can also let you know It's almost like setting up job alerts really on job boards if anything matches a specific uh specific job request that you're looking for then we can give you a call as soon as And the thing comes through and that's the best way to use a recruiter.

It's almost having it passively going on in the background. You know, you keep, keep in touch with them, let them know what you're looking for importantly, and also your skillset. And then down the line, hopefully we can get in touch with you, but like I said, not rely upon us a hundred percent.

Stephen Drew: I like that.

Let me give a general picture of what it was like two years ago compared to now in terms of my job. Okay, maybe that will help. So, let's do it. What's the intro? How do we go back in time, boys? Let's ring the bells and go back in time. Ooh. Got [00:24:00] my payback. Before coronavirus. Go back to the good times. Boys, if we can shut, if we shut our eyes, it's like the architecture block is booming.

Oh, I almost felt like I was there for a little while. Oh, good times, without the coronavirus. In the good times. Yeah, okay. So, but we're going to be survivors, right? You, you appreciate the good times by surviving now. So a year or two ago, typically I would have 10 to 15 requirements. Okay. Requirement jobs from companies.

And it would be companies that I build rapport with and they would say over time, either they would give me a job description or they would say, Steve, if you find anyone that you think is exceptional, that you think fits our profile, because you've met us, you understand our company. We always want to know, okay.

And then I could get a particular role where they're like, I'm looking for a BIM superstar, or I'm looking for someone who's [00:25:00] won amazing schemes. And so I would go around shortlisting people for those roles and they would get jobs or, and the other thing is that I could, a good example is that I would meet, for instance, a part two architectural assistant, and I will, you know exactly what I'm thinking of.

Amazing because I always use it. I always, you can start ruling your icing. So I always say. That part too, and I met a part two and he was passionate about BIM. He wanted to be a BIM coordinator. I could see him. It's like, how'd you get there? Cause it's, it's really tricky to do. And, and it was kind of like on paper, this talented individual who was fantastic to me.

I met him in person. He was really great. And he had something about him and in his CV, I could read between the lines. for the matrix code. And I was like, there's something here. The chap was paid, uh, 28, 000 at a company and he was well valued. He was looked after what the [00:26:00] problem was though, is that he was technically still a part two and he wants to be a BIM coordinator.

And as good as the company was. And this is where I'm getting that. See, because a lot of the stuff that I come across in terms of my message in terms of recruitment, it isn't about people working in awful companies. That's a very small part. And even then that is normally subjective to what the person wants.

What you find a lot of the time is someone's in a job, right? And. They can't progress because the company is great, but there's no scope. So in this analogy, he wanted to be a BIM coordinator. We sat down, we went through the CV and portfolio, which restructured it to pop and appeal to a company and, and they, they could appreciate his skillsets.

So in the role of a BIM coordinator here, he would fit. He went for three or four interviews and got a salary of 40, 000 pounds up from 28, 000 pounds. And it was a perfect story of he was happy. Okay. [00:27:00] A massive pay rise. And do you know what? He was great. He still is great. And he's done, uh, he's done so much since then.

The new company has allowed him to effectively go and become a BIM manager. That is a really good, uh, uh, Example of transforming or good recruitment as in, uh, being somewhere and wanting to do something else or wanting to progress. And sometimes you have to move sideways. And it was because I knew the industry that we had this nice chat and we approached certain companies and we got the job.

See. Very tailored towards the person looking and getting the person, the options based upon the experience on the right kind of company. Now it's a completely different world of, I can speak to someone and say, I have, uh, so last week. Okay. I, I, my jobs change daily or weekly right now. I get a new job and then [00:28:00] it's about finding someone efficiently and then the job is closed.

You fill the job. So, uh, I've recently filled a job where it was someone who has worked. On a lot of large scale residential. And there's another job on like hotels, right? It was finding someone with hotels and it was efficiently going through it. And this is the same thing for residential. The hotel expert was not going for the other role at residential.

Okay. The shortlist for this position was people bang on the brief. And, uh, it was a case of going out, representing the company, saying what the role was and identifying whether they meet it. And then putting someone forward. There's a few examples now of speaking to someone where I think they will fit really good at the company.

And unlike before in 2014, where there might be, it would be me speaking to a director and trying to get [00:29:00] them a position at the company because the director trusts me. They still do trust me. A lot, which is why they'll answer the email. But, Matt, there goes Steve. Sorry, you don't have that role right now.

You focus on that residential role, yeah? You make sure you get that role. We don't want someone on Jeff's team. We want someone on Mark's team. Because right now we've got to be a tight ship, Steve. And the recruitment is very specific towards the needs of the company. So it's very different. Gone is the time right now where it's like, Britain's Got Talent, and I'm on, and I'm on the bench going, You're amazing!

You're gonna be a star! Now it's, uh, you're gonna be a star. I can't help you, you gotta go direct. I've gotta find the guy who can knockout or lady who can knock out the drawings on this, uh, residential scheme. I need to find out the person that's done elderly retirements. I need to [00:30:00] find the data center expert.

I need to find the pop up retail expert. I need to find the office consultant. Yeah. Cause that's, that's what the role is. That's what the market requires. So you have to look yourself. You have to be your own. You have to be very strategic right now. If you're looking for a job. Yeah. You can't afford to wait on a recruitment consultants.

You can't afford to wait on one source. You, you have to still speak to good recruitment consultants, of course. Right. Because we, uh, Cause we can offer value. If you are the right, if you have the experience I need right now, I will get you in front of a company and I will get you a job. If you've got that experience, as much as I like you, as much as I think you're great, we can go for a virtual beer and we can wear a gas mask any time of the day.

I need to make sure that you fit that requirement. [00:31:00] And if not, unfortunately, and if I'm slow answering an email, it's because I'm. inundated with emails. And I don't want to be rude. And I think it's really important to get back to everyone. I will get back to everyone. I just got this massive backlog. Yeah.

And that's because the truth, the truth is that's where the market is right now. So it's like homework. I want everyone here. Come on guys. I want everyone here as an exercise to think about who is a good recruitment consultant. What, what, what do you value? Honesty, reputation, understanding the industry, track records.

Look at people, pick who you want, have a conversation about them and, um, and have a real conversation. I'd go like, Oh, okay. I understand this, but difficult right now. Have you got anything for me? No. Okay. Can you do me a favor? If you've [00:32:00] got anything, can you, are you going to let me know? Yeah. Great. Cool.

And the other thing to be aware of, do not let a recruitment consultant send you a CV. London. Let's talk about that fun little point. This will get everyone going here. You will be amazed at sometimes the bad practices which happen in recruitment and you have got to take control of the process. You can be misled by people which are not ethical.

So think of like the, the morality. Okay. There's going to be people that want to. Unfortunately in life, uh, get something done, get you in the door. That kind of attitude. It's a bit like, um, an architect or heaven forbid someone who's not an architect doing a building and just whacking it up. That'll do.

Yeah, that'll do. And then you go, hang on, my conservatory leaps. And it's like that with recruitment is that you're an unethical recruit. I can [00:33:00] go, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's perfect. Yes. Perfect. It's the best company. Oh, you're going to get this. You're going to get that. I promise that. Oh, you can do the commute in two hours.

And then you end up thinking like, Oh yeah, I'm going to go there. And it's not what the recruitment consultant said. It's nothing like it. And you'd be misled now. That is a slim chance of what can happen. And it does happen in life. It does happen. Like you can get an effort, you can get a bad job on architecture.

You can get a bad job on fixing your car. You can get a bad job as a builder. Yeah. You can, you can send, you can get a bad haircut. It's exactly like that. Unfortunately, this is what's called a service. So you really need to vet the right person for it. You really need to think about who you want to use and have honest conversations.

So when you speak into a recruitment consultant, you need to make sure that a, you trust the person and you also remind them [00:34:00] not to send you CV out. to any jobs without your permission, you should ask an email for the recruitment consultant to verify beforehand, beforehand, before you send your CV, where you go, where that CV is going to.

If your CV is popping around London. Yeah. Imagine like the three of us here. Okay. You got me up in the corner. You got Will over there and you got Jack. Let's pretend we're all in different companies. You tell us all to send you CV wherever. Okay. I might send you CV out and say one thing. Jack might send you CV out and say another thing.

And then we're just going to say, uh, something terrible. Well, why would you do that? Why am I the terrible? I'm teasing you. I knew a direction, but I might say that you were looking for a job at 34, 000. Jack says you were looking for a job at 36, 000 and then Will's gonna say you're looking at 35, 000. The client gets [00:35:00] all of your CVs.

The architecture practice sees your CV from one company, two, three. Like, oh my gosh, does this person even know who Stephen Drew's architect is? I'm feeling unloved right now. So when you get to speak to a, um, a recruitment consultant, Find out who they're working with, okay? Send your CV and portfolio first so that they can understand what you're about.

Read your CV and go, Hmm, I think you would be good to work at this company, and this company, and this company. Can I please have your permission to put you forward? Because I know the director. I've worked with them before. I've got a track record. Ask these things, you know, who do they know? Is he going to the receptionist or not?

Put it to the right person. And, or if there was a few companies where I know the directors, I have more rapport with them. Joe blogs. I think this, this guy would [00:36:00] be amazing for your team. I see something in it. He's very Jack Moran esque. Okay, Jack. And then you go, aren't we all right. I'm more interested.

Find out the track record, find out the report where they are. And if you find out that your CV's been sent without your permission, Oh my dear lord,

Jack Moran: I want to swear. Are we, if I can just interject, we are evidence that that has happened probably to all three of us. It happens all the time. What do the clients always say?

They always come back with, you know, we've already had this CV and portfolio from X amount of agencies and it honestly just devalues the person so much, doesn't it? So it makes it, I think it makes them look a bit desperate if anything.

Stephen Drew: Well, and it's, and it's confusion and that confusion can stop you getting an interview.

Yeah. So you constantly need to be in control when you speak to a recruitment consultant on where your CV has been sent to [00:37:00] and go through that. Do not ever send your CV around London as you will be known as, as Jack says, you'd be devalued and you will be that guy, that CV. It's this again, isn't it? Well, you know,

Will Ridgway: yeah, it's this.

Um, I think when, if, when the, uh, whoever the CV the director or someone in HR, and they get the same CV for the third time that day, whilst they might not necessarily, um, you know, blame you for it, they'll probably blame the recruiters for it. What can happen though is that it subconsciously makes them have a negative, um, before every time they see your CV and that can impact on you getting to the next stage to an interview because they've immediately seen your CV for the third time and it's just frustration for them.

It has nothing to do with you, it's the fact that they've just seen it. Constantly. And so that's why it's important to keep hold of, um, you know, know where your CV has been sent. Find out, um, you know, only get your CV to be sent once you've got the permission. [00:38:00] It's like you wouldn't, um, if you've got a, um, if you want to have a conservatory built, first of all, you would look to find the best builder for the job.

You want to just pick the first one. You want to find the track history, find any reviews, whether that be in recruitment or be on LinkedIn, maybe, maybe Google reviews, find out. Who it is first, and then also make sure that they stick to what you have said. The last thing you want is for another two conservatories to be built.

You only want one, you know, why would, why would you let them go off, um, go off and build another one without your permission? So make sure that they stick to where they're going to send you, where you've said yes to. So that if you do work with more than one group agency, or if you're doing direct applications, it means that your applications don't duplicate up.

So that it avoids any confusion, any embarrassment. Um, that's

Stephen Drew: what I would say. I love it. And I want everyone to think about, right, that I remember the one time I put someone forward for a role. I got the [00:39:00] candidate's permission. I got along very well with the director. And while I was organizing the interview, The director sent me an email from, uh, a recruitment consultant of who I shall not name, uh, that sent the CV of the candidate who I was booking for an interview to the company.

So he was like, Steve, what's this? And I'm like, I have no idea. And what was awful about it is that this other recruitment consultant said a lower salary. So it confuses. So I had to, I had to basically stick up for the candidate, stick up for his worth. And, and then she spoke to the candidate, the candidate, so the architect who's been put forward, had no idea that this other recruitment consultant done it.

And then I, you know, I encouraged the, the, the, the, the, the candidate, the architect [00:40:00] to go, you need to speak to this guy and say, Where have you sent this CV to? Because if it's gone to one guy, chances are it's gone to loads of places. And what was funny was, that recruitment consultant acted all like, Oh, I don't know what's going on.

Oh, it must have been a mistake. And this is the point. It's like everything else. You can catch out people doing this stuff. And the good news is in the current world we are, the word of mouth spreads fast, online spreads fast. So you, by and large, that you have a lot of good recruitment consultants. There are, I've known a lot of people in architecture, there's quite a few companies.

That I respect. I mean, I joined McDonald and company because of the longstanding reputation they have. And in terms of architecture while leading the team, there was certain qualities I could instill in how I want to go about a team. Yeah. There's a few recruitment consultants [00:41:00] that I quote unquote compete with such as white space.

I really value the recruitment that they do. And. I think it's good that there's other people that are good like that because, uh, white space, good practice. I like, I like that they, they do a good job and it keeps me in check as well. And it's like that friendly thing of, you know, it's like two architectural practices.

trying to bid for the work together who are good, you know, it's like going up on someone you respect. Now, where I get frustrated is with, um, companies, which I think do not have the candidates value at heart. Do not have you, the architects value at heart. They don't give a, cause I can't swear cause this is going to go on.

They don't give a where you go. They don't give a what price you get. They shove you in the door. and shoot off. That ain't good. But luckily it's the minority and what you can [00:42:00] do in this process, you, the person, you decide who wants to represent you. You decide who you want to speak to. You decide the companies you want to go to.

So you have the power to take control of that. process. You're going to be respectful. You're going to speak with companies, sorry, you're going to speak with architectural recruitment consultants that you want to work with. And yes, they're going to bring a value and you're going to treat them with respect.

You're going to treat them like you're a team. You're going to, you're going to look up to people who can offer you value, but then you're also going to view them equally. Okay. So if someone is misleading you or you feel that they're doing. something wrong, call them out on it. Where have you sent my CV?

If that recruitment consultant can't substantiate where you've been sent and they can't document where that's been in the conversation, then that is someone I would not want to work with. If a recruitment [00:43:00] consultant calls you out of the blue and goes Jack, um, yeah, do you know where it is? Oh, I made a company this morning and it's just, I didn't mention your name, but they want to meet you.

Do you want to go for a minute? If anything feels suspect like that, what's happened is There's a chance your CV's gone without your permission. Yeah? Because someone's feeling worried, or maybe they're desperate in the current climate and doing things which are without your permission. And that is illegal.

Someone should not be sending your CV without your permission. And the GDPR, you have the right to ask that.

Get mad. Get angry. Get angry that people have been doing this for a while. Shouldn't be doing it, but the good news is a good recruitment consultants. It's like anything else, good architect, like you guys in the future, like [00:44:00] what you do, they are worth their weight in gold. And I, and this, like when I'm hiring for my team or, you know, like, uh, we all can make mistakes.

Things happen. Things don't always go our way. Sometimes mistakes have happened. I've once, you know, made one or two mistakes in recruitment and you, you know, believe it or not, guys, I'm not perfect. Um, yeah, we're all human, but it's about going around that. And what I'm on about is mistakes can happen.

Sometimes that unfortunately you can't get the news that you want in terms of job and, oh, you feel like, oh, no. Um, Things sometimes go wrong in the process. Sometimes roles get changed. Sometimes, yeah, we don't always get the feedback we'd love to give you. Sometimes things don't go your way and the job goes to someone else.

But what I'm talking about is every recruitment consultant, if they were in gold should be honest. Okay. It doesn't mean that the, and what I'm on about that is not that the process goes perfect because we are always just trying to go. We're trying to [00:45:00] help you out the best we can. What I'm on about is honesty because you, I can.

Be, always be honest with you. Sometimes people don't want to hear honesty and that sometimes gets me into, uh, I wouldn't say trouble, but there's a way of going, I have sometimes you have to, to be kind, I have to tell you things which are not ideal and that's what this is now. Okay, if I wanted to say I am the best recruitment consultant and I can guarantee you a job speak to me Oh, my chicken wings are going there.

It's then. Yeah, great. I'll maybe I'll get a few more CVs coming to my inbox but where that's not honest is because I might not be able to reply to everyone right now, or I might not have the right role for them. And so the best thing I can do is to speak openly off of my opinion piece and how to go about the process.

And then hopefully when things change, or if I've got a role, which is relevant to your experience, yeah, we can do that now, but I'd love to work with you in the future. [00:46:00] And I'd love to have you have this open and honest conversation right now, and we should be talking openly about recruitment. And that's what this one's about.

So this one is more about you as a job seeker, finding a job weathering the storms right now. And then in the good times, remembering, Hey, you know, you can definitely look around. There'll be playing too many games. No one, you know, you've got to get a balance, right? So we can go through that. Next week, what I want to talk about is it from a client's perspective, how to the best to use the recruitment consultant, the value of a recruitment, good recruitment consultant, uh, in this time, looking for something specific as well as.

searching for the right talent and also how the recruitment process can be difficult and maybe a few things how to make it easier. So this is for the job [00:47:00] seeker. So sorry guys, this has been a little bit heavy on me talking. Um, I'm sorry, uh, I, but I hope Jack, it was invaluable. We covered

Jack Moran: the fundamentals of the importance of a recruitment consultant and the difference between a good and a bad one, but I did like your point about the CV going, you know, left, right and center around London.

Um, the thing is because people might be so unaware of it and Like you said, you know what a bad consultant may do in just saying, Oh, I spoke to this practice this morning. Somehow they want to see you, even though you don't know that I said yes. That's a common thing. And I definitely think that plays a part.

And you know, we were speaking before Stephen about how, um, there's certain, you know, negative. connotations to a recruitment consultant were, you know, the way we're sort of viewed, um, in the market. But like you said, a good recruitment consultant will have that thick skin and he won't be a yes man. So he's not going to speak to a candidate and just be like, Oh, you're amazing.

You're [00:48:00] this, you're that, you know, so it's all, it's all, it's all sunshine and flowers that, you know, like you said. Yeah. And then nothing happens. Exactly. If you, if you say to someone, look, you know, there's nothing going on at the moment. You might, you may be an exceptional architect. However, within the sectors you've worked in, there's not much happening.

Um, having said that, why don't we keep in touch? If anything comes through, I'll let you know. That's why I think, you know, in recruitment, like especially me and Will being a sort of, you know, lower level than Stephen, what we tend to find is that at the moment, as well as. sourcing jobs and trying to bring in our own roles.

We are building connections and that's quite, this is quite a strong part of being part of McDonald and company. Um, you know, really do value connections and it goes back to saying that, you know, it's not, it's not what you know, it's who you know. And I definitely think that's why a large part of recruitment consultants job, especially at the, uh, you know, first few years is trying to establish those contacts while you're at the work you're doing now.

few years down the line, they might say, you know, Oh, Jack, well, we, you know, we spoke to you ages ago and nothing at the time. Could you now help me find a role or I have a role that needs, you know, people for [00:49:00] it. Um, yeah, you know, I, I definitely think you've covered some, uh, good fundamental ground, Steven.

And, uh, yeah,

Stephen Drew: and that's why, um, and then that's what I, I really respect about, um, us as a team or more specifically, uh, you two as well. And what I value is, um, you don't come from an architectural background. It doesn't mean I think that compared to a lot of, uh, it doesn't matter if you've got a background in architecture, what it's all about is understanding architecture, caring about architecture, being around architects and being honest.

That's number one. And my background in architecture covers us all because, and actually, um, how many architectural practices have we been to? It's going to the companies, learning the companies and meeting people. Okay. Yeah. We can't meet candidates right now because, um, zoom and I'm guilty sometimes of. I meet a bit less people [00:50:00] than I have done in the past, but what I do now is, it's interesting because when I start in recruitment, I do think it's good to go through someone's portfolio.

What I like to do right now is, I can go through the portfolio, but I like to cut the crux of what someone's looking for in a nice way. I'm like, what's really happening? Where are you at in life? What are you looking for? Because the technical details or, and that, that is important and we can come to it.

But the more I know what you're looking for and where you're at in life and the more we can have that honest conversation, the better. Steve, I've worked long hours and I value what I've done at Joe Blog's practice. I've got a kid on the way. My priorities have changed. I want to balance, you know, or the other way.

You're like, I want to give it my all. I want to work for an amazing company, which is always in disease. Great. We can do all that. We can have open conversations. If you give me an open conversation, I can help more. And that's why. Me being open about the current [00:51:00] situation right now, and my thoughts about recruitment, hopefully I can help you.

I can't reply to all the messages right now. Um, I feel awful that, uh, I've still got loads to go through today. I sent a message on LinkedIn last week. I got to get back to, I almost want people to kind of look at this video and, and, and, uh, Have an open conversation. It's, uh, there's a little part of me and that's where we talk to you yet.

There's something nervous about talking about the behind the scenes or behind anything, but there shouldn't be. And it's scary for me almost to come up here live every week and us as well. We, this, we were, we've been doing podcasts, which have been live in a, uh, small audience. Now we're on, we're on, we're on LinkedIn.

We're on YouTube. We're on this stuff. And we're talking about things from the heart. And so I'm shooting from the hip. I don't have a script. This is all freestyle. Okay. Based [00:52:00] upon raw emotions and meaning and coming from experience. And if you're honest to a recruitment consultant, Um, I'm going to try, I'll always try and be honest back.

Um, I, I, let me rephrase, I will always be honest. I will. Sometimes though it's not what you want to hear and I've got to say it honestly in a nice way. And that's how you make people Yeah. And that's why. Yeah. And it's, and so it's, that's why like right now is that no one should panic it. It's a difficult time.

And that's why I'm saying you can use a recruitment consultant. The best person to help you is right now is you, the best person to decide who to work with is you. And I love to work with you and, and, and, but it's that thing of, I, I help people that are open with me. and I'll be open with them and it could be now or in a few years and [00:53:00] sometimes I can get the hole in one and you will think I am the miracle man and I've had a few with them where they're like oh my gosh Steve Drew and this and that because everything went the perfect way and it could have been hard behind the scenes there's other times I've not been able to help people and there's been a few people who I think are exceptional.

and not managed to get them a job. And that is due to circumstance. I will always try, but what I do always try to do, and this is the same for any professional, is have that honest thing, have that chat and help. So, oh, you can see, look at that.

Jack Moran: Okay. So I think we should end up on the green screen. If anyone else is, Oh, production value is, uh,

Stephen Drew: we're getting there.

We're getting there. I've just got to learn to zoom the camera in and then I'll get out with next week. We're going to do a soundboard. So a little bit of a serious tone, but with uplift, the point is we are getting there, we are being honest. [00:54:00] And you can find a job. You can do it. You can do it. And it could be through me and it could be through you, but you've got to keep doing it.

So I think if you're happy with it, well, cause I think Jack echoed it. You had a really nice thoughts earlier. What I would like to say to anyone out there. So we can all be found at McDonald and company, great recruitment company in around since 1994, RICS. Basically, we're the official partner of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors, I lead the architecture team, and the other thing that we have, let me bring the banner down, if you're not joining there, join the Architectural Social, oop, oop, oop, oop, Architectural Social.

Is that

Jack Moran: the most engaged architecture community in the world? I

Stephen Drew: think it is. Wow. Well, we're all striving for it. We're all going there. Definitely growing. The Architectural Exposure was born when we were all on furlough. I thought it would be a great community to talk about honest subjects like this. And, [00:55:00] you know, of course, I post jobs that I work on there.

But it's a really engaged community. We've done loads of these webinars and we talk about how to help yourself from the, from the get go, how to take control of the recruitment process. And I really want everyone on there to look at these videos and kind of. Soak in them, enjoy them, but they're there to be used.

Okay. It's just because you, and there are me and Will were having a giggle about this earlier. It's like everything else. I got like so many business and self help books and audible. And when I listened to them, they great. You need to implement them in real life. So I want everyone here to think about exactly what I said and start applying it to what you do.

Go and listen to one of the podcasts that we've done and the webinars have a look. We've got industry experts on there on the architectural social. com. We've got a free podcast and free community to join, get involved, get the conversation going, be active. The people in life that do well, I say it every week, Jack, and I believe in more and more of the people that gave, we have everything from.

A book club to take your mind off the current situation, the current, ah, if you're [00:56:00] getting stressed out, you're like, I can't be dealing with Boris Johnson on the news again, have a nice time. And then we can also talk about nitty gritty stuff like recruitment and I offer my perspective on that, but there's more than just recruitment on there.

It's about anything you want to share, anything you want to showcase your work, anything I offer and talk about recruitment because. That is my job. It's the stage is yours. It's what you want to make of it. So definitely check it out. Definitely register. We're also on YouTube. We're on Spotify. I'm all down with the crew.

We're all there. So, uh, I think that's me. Uh, Will, are you happy with that?

Will Ridgway: Yeah, I'm happy that I think you've kind of, no, no, no pearls of wisdom for me. I think you've done all the wisdom today.

Stephen Drew: Okay, I've got a

Will Ridgway: question. Who's in them pictures in the corner? Uh, it's me and my brother. Me

Jack Moran: and my brother. My

Will Ridgway: mom's over [00:57:00] there, but you can't really see that one.

And then that's me, but it's what I had hair. So, you know, it's a long one. Can you get a picture of me and Steve and just put it Ha ha ha! It's a

Stephen Drew: launch

Will Ridgway: right

Stephen Drew: now. It's green

Will Ridgway: screen.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's like before and after. You're all chiseled Hulk Hogan and I'm like the subway man before you went on the subway diet.

Okay, um, Jack, um, I loved your wrap up. One quick thing before you do the official wrap up. Can I see your kittens? Are they there? Let's see the kitten. Yes, of course. You can only see one because they're both

Will Ridgway: Yes! Kitten! Woo!

Stephen Drew: Kittens are making their debut. You need a kitten in life right

Jack Moran: now. Ah! Maybe, do you know what?

On the Architectural Social, maybe I should just have a Jack's kittens page. I think So if anyone's feeling a bit sad about the whole, you know, the corona world, they can just sort of There you are. There you

Stephen Drew: go. We had to bring that up. I think, Will, that is the one guess. That is amazing. I think I love, I [00:58:00] love that.

We need a kitten. And so

Jack Moran: don't worry. Cause you know, at work when people get bored, they just start looking at pictures of dogs and kittens. Anyway, if anyone's like looking for a job and they're getting sad, they can just say kittens.

Stephen Drew: Have a little look at the kitten. And if, if you're listening to the podcast, you gotta check out the YouTube and have a little look at Jack's kitten.

And while you're there, subscribe. Oh, I sound like one of them YouTubers now. Like and subscribe. Actually only like and subscribe if you want to. Don't worry. It's about if you want to be part of it. Cool. So I best go. ASMR, where are we

Jack Moran: going now? At the team of the Architectural Social. Thank you very much for joining us.

I've been Jack Moran, your host, Stephen Drew, Will Ridgway. Thank you very much for your time, boys. Guys, you can find us on all our socials on LinkedIn. You can listen to all of our podcasts on Spotify. Find us at thearchitecturalsocial. com. And for any of you who are in the market looking for anything at the moment, please feel free to visit the mcdonaldandcompany.

com website where you can [00:59:00] reach all of our contact details. Thank you for joining us.

Stephen Drew: Oh yeah, great. Oh, I'm banging everything. Bye. Okay, thank you. Bye

Jack Moran: everyone. Bye bye.