Architecture's Future: Are Universities Keeping Up? | ft. Alberto Villanueva

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Introduction and State of Architecture in 2025
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. Wherever you are in the world. It is 2025 an Architecture, the state of the industry and the academia. The study of Architecture, we. You're at an interesting time right now. Some would say it might be the midlife crisis of the industry, who knows? But with that comes excitement as well, because that system that we know of, part one, part two, part three, and those old brick and mortar universities, those names that you've been hearing about, there might have been one or reports of one or two.

I don't know all the stuff we've been hearing, but there are new universities as well, and there are new people that are teaching the next generation of Architecture that I am really excited about. So I've got a guest today who I've met for the last year or two who it has literally [00:01:00] built up an amazing course of Architecture from the, from the roots in South London, and is competing now with highest, highest happiness rating among the students.

I hope I'm allowed to say that one of the best, I think Architecture practices. Architecture, step universities in the uk.

Guest Introduction: Alberto and Ravensbourne University
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Stephen Drew: So on that now, I should invite my guest, Alberto, how are you, sir? Are you okay?

Alberto Villanueva: I am fine. What, what an intro. I dunno what to say after this. Uh, yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Stephen Drew: I got so excited that I called you an Architecture practice, but you know what? We, we, everyone's learning. Everyone's learning all the time. Now, Alberto, for those that don't know you, do you wanna tell me a little bit about the university course that you run, and also a little bit about yourself?

Alberto Villanueva: Yeah, I mean, um, uh, we have a, we have a department of Architecture, Ravens born, it's Architecture in the built environment that we have courses in [00:02:00] Architecture, interior Architecture reviews, urban landscape Architecture, and we are opening soon also Architectural design engineering. And it is a very exci, exciting, like, group of courses that they, they, we taught them in a kind of a cluster.

Uh,

we have a lot of shared learning and

and it's, it's quite exciting. We have amazing students and I think that is what, uh, the engine of all this is about. The people who are coming to study and, and being with us. I am, as you were saying, I'm the, I'm the head of the department. I'm an Architect. I have

been in London almost 11 years now.

Uh, came to London as someone that, uh, probably didn't want to practice as an Architect anymore or do anything related to Architecture, but, you know, how is life a few years after being in London san knock on the door and say, Hey, would you like to, to join and to do this in Architectural education? And here I am.

Stephen Drew: Here you are and look what the, the waves that you've made. Now I'm gonna [00:03:00] show my age because I was a part one in 2026 and then I went to Westminster

at the time. So I didn't know about your university at

the time. It didn't exist basically in the

world. But look how far you've come already. Now the, what I wanted to say

is, so this little bell, when I started the podcast, I used to call it my Bartlet bell 'cause it came out on a time and I can't go into it too much.

But a report might or might not have come out. And all the people

not in the Architecture industry were like, I can't believe all the stuff that's happening in

this report. Whereas everyone

that studied Architecture was like, Hmm, might have happened.

Challenges and Changes in Architectural Education
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Stephen Drew: However, in the last few years, architecture's changed a lot.

I think it's fair to say, and probably for the better. However, you are building this new, new place of learning. And with that, does it, is it quite. A good thing. Do you think it's been a good change since the famous Butler report has come out, and has it been an exciting time for you to build up a [00:04:00] course?

Alberto Villanueva: I, I mean, I, I think you're, you are quite generous in, in a way of talking about building. I, I, I don't think, uh, I mean, I, I was lucky enough that there were people before me that they were trying to, to put, to put this together, people that did a, a, a great work. I, I think I am, I feel quite privileged and lucky that.

I mean, Ravens One became a university with degree awarding powers in 2018, and, and it was validated by a RB Part One Architectural Interiors on the same year, 2018. And we only have been RIBA validated part one for Architectural interiors since December, 2023. Then everything is quite new. Everything is, in a way, was a smaller scale.

And, and, and that has lost lots of pros and cons, right?

Uh, it gives you opportunity, flexibility,

agility, opportunity to shape things differently. Then I, I mean, I, I really appreciate your comments.

I, I don't think we are here trying to reinvent the wheel, and I [00:05:00] think it has been more about, you know, how,

how you bring together a group of people that care about similar things than, than than you

and, and how you can enable people around you to,

to bring energy.

And I think that,

that, that has been most of it. I, I don't think it is like. Uh, any kind of successful or formula that is different to what all the institutions are doing? I think everyone tries to do a great job.

Stephen Drew: We definitely do a great job. You can't take a compliment. That's your thing. So there's lots of cool things that I like about Ravens. Born University of London. Okay, so you already worked with all these amazing Architecture practices, which I think is really, really, really important. I think in the end of your show when I was there, you had Scott Brown, reg, there was a few other really cool studios as well.

Building Industry Connections and Student Preparedness
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Stephen Drew: Do You think, especially in 2025, it's more important than ever to build those bridges with Architecture practices to get people ready for working in the industry?

Alberto Villanueva: you Yeah, absolutely, a hundred percent. I, I think, uh, [00:06:00] when we think about, uh, my institution, organization, Ravens born. Uh, always having feel, felt very proud of having very strong links with industry. Then I would, I would meet the students that they were doing editing and post-production and working with Frame Store and, you know, I have seen the names of some of my students before my time in Architecture that they were, I dunno, in Marvel films, or they were like, uh, working with massive music production companies or with Obama Foundation this late, et cetera, Nike, and, and all those things.

Always felt very exciting about Ravens. Born in Architecture felt a bit different because I, I always had the feeling that the industry sometimes feel that we are a bit lost in trying to identify, identify what, what does it mean to be an Architect nowadays? Uh, what does it mean to progress in maybe with a massive Deb with after many years trying to qualify into an industry that might not be that rewarding at the [00:07:00] beginning.

And, but, but I have to say that you're mentioning some names, obviously. Scott Brownrigg, uh, knowing, uh, Benny and, and many of the colleagues there, um, uh, there have been amazing Architecture firms, small, small ones, and also big ones that, that I think, I think

many people are trying

to come together to say, let's not forget this idea that we are a community.

We, if we don't support new generations, if we don't work together, this is a feedback in two directions. If we are not able to contribute to the other, what is gonna be a bit, the future of, of the profession? and

and many, many people care, but many people sometimes feel restricted, but yeah, absolutely. We, we want to make sure

that those industry colleagues out there can help us to shape what we are trying to do together.

Without industry, Architectural education wouldn't be successful because we, because it needs to be informed in that way.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I [00:08:00] remember when I graduated part one, I gotta be honest, how better I felt like jumping off the cliff. It was like, congratulations, so you've done this really hard course now, pat on the back, get that CV, put on portfolio, and then go out to

industry. See you later. Take care. Now. I think you've bridged the gap a little bit there.

One of the criticisms of employers sometimes is that they feel that universities do not get some students ready for people in industry. Is that something that you've taken on a bit of a mission then

to get people ready for going

out into the world and getting jobs? Is that like important driver for

you on part one?

Alberto Villanueva: it, it is, but I, I, I think probably the challenge is still like, you know, the industry is very competitive and at the end of the day, employers require a, a set of skills. And, you know, when there is no space for everyone, that it seems that it's like that. Uh, the only way to, to [00:09:00] many people, I, I, I was re I remember that I was in, in, in in adult advisory board that was happening in, uh, Squires and, uh, and partners and it was, it was the, with the great people of Blueprint for All.

And there were industry companies there that they were talking about how do we make sure that there is more representation, more opportunities for students, et cetera, et cetera. But at the end of the day, I, I ask, but you guys,

at the end of the day, you go and you pick the portfolios

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Alberto Villanueva: from the same institutions, which I, I don't criticize because at the end of the day

it's is competitive around skills, but.

My question was how much we want to invest in the talent

of people that have a way of thinking,

and they just really need to keep pushing a bit more to see how, how they can build that set of skills.

Not sometimes we forget that there has to be different roots into progressing to the profession And different skill sets, and not every, everything is about who does the best render or the best

drawing. [00:10:00] Still obviously drawing is our tool and

drawing is part of what we do.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that some universities have, uh, had a bit of unfair criticism on that, you know, because it's like, why are the universities not getting people ready? But I think that, especially, again, I mentioned since 2026, a lot's changed for universities, hasn't it? For many different factors. The cost of studying has gone higher, but then the, the salaries when you come out of Architecture have not increased with this other cost.

Financial Realities and Government Policies
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Stephen Drew: And also at the moment, the Architectural apprenticeship schemes are now under jeopardy because of the labor government and stuff. And then Luke, who's on your team, has actually been on the podcast. With us to talk about the apprenticeship. So do you feel that it's been quite a challenge for you fighting all these changes, which are sometimes out outside of your control?

Alberto?

Alberto Villanueva: Yeah, and also the, the challenge [00:11:00] also is that if you are a small organization that is aiming to. Make an impact. They, they don't make it easy because the amount of resource that you need to, for example, you are mentioning, I, I'm, I'm lucky that I have, uh, a colleague in my team like Luke Muray, that he has done an amazing work around apprenticeships, but we don't run apprenticeships at Ravens born with apprenticeships in Architecture.

And when we sat down and we were like, how, how we can do this? Because it feels that of what is part in the DNA of Ravens born of widening participation, providing different pathways and opportunities, uh, apprenticeship should be one of the roots that we should offer. Like, you know, all the institutions do very well.

I mean, uh, my kudos to people like in London, Southbank University, that they do a, a, a great work around that. But then suddenly when you sit down and look all the administrative load and all the, the, the barriers and hurdles that you need, you know, you have to put that in place. I was thinking I don't have the resource or the capacity to run this in [00:12:00] the short term because.

At the same time you're trying to battle, what does it mean to revalidate with a RB? What does it mean to be validated with that IBA, oh, what happens if a RB has changed? Um, you know, part one is disappearing now, but we, we were small and we still didn't have our part two validated that we are now in, in process, uh, and in progress of doing it then, um, and then people comes with changes, government comes with changes, regulators come with changes.

But, you know, it takes, in an organization in higher education, it might take two years that we can do things that people are proposing to change now. And, and I think that is one of the problems that the times don't align and is that, you know, you, you have marketing teams, you have, uh, many other people, executive teams that, you know, Architecture is just a small part in an organization that is way bigger in a company.

And, and then suddenly you have to explain. Sorry. All the plan that you were having about doing this, uh, [00:13:00] in Architecture, now the regulatory is saying this, or the government is changing this and, and someone is like, well, '

you are. It's not that you are not that important, but we are, I mean, probably the Architecture department of Ravens one is, is less than

10% of the steam population of ravens from Why,

why? Sometimes people might think, why you are overcomplicate. It's like, you know, when you go to meetings, some people think like, oh, here we go.

The head of Architecture is gonna say that. We cannot do that in Architecture because Architecture is different and, you know, sometimes being

different, it's good, but we, we need to be very careful about how we promote that, how we are different.

We cannot do that because that becomes a problem.

Stephen Drew: Hmm.

That does become a problem. Or maybe another myth that you can get rid of. 'cause I remember when, so when I studied, uh, Architecture, I think it was 3000 pounds, um, a year to study Architecture, and then it's gone up to basically 9,000 ish, I dunno, the numbers. And then [00:14:00] two study internationally it costs more as well.

Now We

know this is a challenge, but, um, as well, it's not just like the fees went up and then the university's making 6,000 pounds and pocketing it and then got all this stuff. The cost of everything has gone up. Alberto. Right. How, how, where does it, what's your views on that having been in

there? Like there's, there's no surplus of cash in a room somewhere then, right.

Alberto Villanueva: No. No, and, and, and I always find conflicted about, about all this because as, as an individual, I mean, I, I, I qualify and I studied back, back in Spain. And, and public universities. There are, you know, there is a cost that compared with the UK is, is way lower than I think. There are other countries, if I'm not wrong, like France, et cetera, where the fees are non-existent almost there.

Uh, and, and, and you will in a way you want that education should be free and accessible. You know, why, [00:15:00] why it has to cost money, but understanding that the system is, is what it is. And, and universities operate in a way as, as businesses and it, it makes you Quest question around a lot of why the government does things in certain ways.

Because, yeah, I mean, for many years the fees have been at the same level, but, but as you were saying, everything goes up then the, the universities are more squeezed there on, you know, you have the same fees for all this

period of time, but everything costs lots of money. And, And, and, one example is having a building and a campus in, in London.

And, and, and how, how, how you can, you know, the,

the cost of maybe delivering

Architecture per square meter is, is, it's, is is quite expensive because you also require a studio space and you also,

it's a, et cetera. Then yeah, it, it, it is a challenge, but at the same time,

is it fair to go up in a student fees and then the students get in, in a, in a bigger debt?

[00:16:00] Uh, it has to be there, there needs to be another system and there are people that

propose all the systems, but we are still not there. Nothing is happening.

Stephen Drew: Well, the thing is, 9,000 is all well and good if by the government standards that I think the perception is that an Architect is probably on 80, 90,000 pounds like people in canary warfare. And therein lies the problem. It's like, congratulations. So you've cost 75,000 pounds of study Architecture to live in London, maybe a hundred thousand.

Depends where you are, right? And then you, you come out and the reality is a part two is probably 30 to 35 if you're lucky in London. And then a qualified Architect, if you're lucky, is 40 plus. I think that is. The issue, isn't it? It's not scaling up like the government. And another

one, just while we're freestyling the subject, another crazy one.

Um, they're changing the visa, uh, requirements to come into the uk. So now, uh, you don't quote me exactly on [00:17:00] this, but let's pretend. It's something like, you need to do four, you need to come into the uk, get your first job in the uk. Bear in mind, you know, you know UK regulations, but you might be a qualified Architect elsewhere.

And then you've gotta come in and now to get the visa, you're gonna have to get 42 to 43 grand, which as we know, a company when they need to train you on that says, no, you need to come in lower so we can get it going. But the government has just plucked 40,000 pound out of the air as like a reasonable number.

And actually it's a squeeze point for Architecture. So it's like that theme all the time or the, I know with the apprenticeship thing, labors, they view is, oh, it's all right. The companies will pay for it. Well, I'm, I'm a business owner and it's not that simple. People go, nah, you're all right. We'll just stick with the part one, two, and three system.

I mean, I'm free styling, but do you feel, again, it's the pressure of the governments not understanding Architecture then and doing all around it.

Alberto Villanueva: Well that is, I agree. And, and that is a difficult one, [00:18:00] but, but that, that is why I spot on in, in the way that, yeah. If, if you could invest in your education knowing that there is a kind of an outcome after that, that you get into a. Highly qualified job, highly rewarded with a salary based on your skills and also investment of the years of training that are behind that.

And that is not happening in the industry. And then on top of that, exactly, you know, London used to be, and I, I, I think it's still right, and one of the centers in the world, the place where, you know, many people like me wanted to come and experience in a point of our lives. You know, if not all, most of the best practices, Architecture, practices in the world have offices here.

But then reality is that when you come here is like, okay, hold on. These are the salaries spec, this is the salary, this is the opportunities, these are the challenges. Uh, it is not that easy. And, and, and I don't know where we need to start changing things, but [00:19:00] because I, I understand the pressures for offices, you know, uh, many, many Architecture offices, not everyone.

Is with all respect, I'm not trying to drop names here, but not everyone is foster and partners, uh, in, in terms of volume of business. Not everyone, uh, generates that nationally and internationally with, um, big projects. Then how do you expect that Architecture offices can pay and generate all that? If there is No, someone was saying in Adina recently that it really blew my mind that,

uh, I dunno if it was something, it was less than 10% of the

building work in the

UK is done by architects.

Then if you try to think about the, the volume of business and how much is the impact where an

Architect is getting involved, getting paid and generating a business, and I think that that is part of the problem. That there is not, uh,

yeah, there is not enough work. And, and and, and I

dunno, you can talk about many things.

Are there many [00:20:00] businesses, are there many Architecture schools? Are there many.

I think you are opening that kind of worms, but I, I think it's fair to discuss it and, and to question it. I, I, I,

I don't think I have the knowledge or the solution, but I always question

it also.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no. Well, maybe I can freestyle on that as well. 'cause so I, I have a small business. Okay. That's what an SME is under the number in the uk I think anything under 50 employees is a small business, right? So really in business, you wanna aim for a net profit, ideally of 30%. And so for anyone that doesn't know, what that means is, let's pretend you make a hundred thousand pounds after you've paid your staff the overheads, the cost, the net profit would be 30,000 pounds.

That's ideal. Okay? Now, the issue with Architecture practices, um, I'm not, I'm aiming for, so Architecture, Social, do a few different things, including recruitment really would like to aim for 30%, but that's, it's gonna be lower. It's like [00:21:00] 23, 24. I speak to Architecture business owners and the net profit. Is often 10 to 14%.

That's extremely low, Alberto, because let's pretend then you're making a million pound, okay? And your net profit is 140,000. That sounds great, but it's not really. That's one or two bad payrolls. That's one or two projects dropping out and that's why you also get lots of redundancies in Architecture. So I really agree with your point.

It's not a case of the business owner. Again, it's like when I said to you about where's the other 6,000 pound going on? The fees, is it going to the dean? No, it's not. And in Architecture practices, of course there are some rich architects. You know, Norman Foster's got a big old thing, but you know, that's a huge business.

He's at the top. But like you said, for most places, most commercial businesses. The, the, the net fee is not, not huge, so that means that salaries are tight and then that's also caused other [00:22:00] problems in the industry such as unpaid overtime and all this stuff, because therein lies the problem. So it's a bit of a rant, but I agree with you.

I haven't seen the other side of the coin. I don't think it's a case of just businesses going, oh, we'll get a student in really cheap and screw them over. I genuinely don't think there's just much of money there. Full stop, you know?

Alberto Villanueva: I, I I do agree. And, and I think that, uh, not trying to, trying to maybe link it with, we were discussing at the beginning, I think.

Alternative Career Paths and Skills in Architecture
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Alberto Villanueva: What we are trying to do, from my position, and I know that many heads of schools of Architecture are trying in the best way, is like how we can bring value to Architectural skills and education to understand that there is not only one way, one route, we want to be.

I think it's important to, to be honest with our students about what is the, the landscape that they're gonna see in front of them. But at the same time, not being negative and pessimistic is about how we can create [00:23:00] opportunities. I, it might sound pedantic, but I'm pretty sure that many colleagues around Architectural, uh, industry will agree.

I mean, we, we are quite lucky that our set of skills or what we learned is quite, is quite flexible in a way, and it's quite complete. But I think it's, it's quite important that, that we understand that there are many other pathways where your skills are valuable. And I, I think that is one, is part of our responsibility at universities and in education that, you know, you say you have shared your, your story with me and with us and, and I always love how you say, and I went and I studied, but I, you know, I didn't qualify here, I did this.

Well, you know, there are many roots and there are many ways, and they are not worse or better. It's about how you use that set of skills to identify where is first what you want to do and you're aiming, but also the, the right business opportunity for you because, [00:24:00] um, uh, I, I think we, architects haven't been very good also in understanding how to make the best of our time.

I mean, we, we, we, we tend to work and in a, a crazy number of hours that we really don't monetize in a way that, you know, if you really take. The hours that you invest on something and, and the money that you get paid. Sometimes I say, Hey, hey guys, let's go to the cafe downstairs. We are gonna make more per hour if we go downstairs, but we might be that we can, you know, have our evenings free.

That is a very

silly example because

obviously it is. Life is more complex than that.

But at the end of the day, also, we, we, we need to,

we enjoy what we do in our profession most of the time, but that,

that is not the right position to start because not everyone has the privilege and the opportunity to

say, I'm gonna stay drawing in this room because it's very nice and beautiful and I, you know, I have my mortgage pay and I have my house, my card and [00:25:00] everything is beautiful and

nice.

Many people cannot afford to think in that way, and I think we are wrong when we try to sell that idea or sell different ideas about what is being an Architect.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think so. The, the one thing as well that I think historically has been quite. Bad about Architecture is there's this feeling of part one, part two, part three, and that's what you must do. And if you don't do it, you are a failure. And it was so good to hear you talk about

alternative careers. 'cause you're right, I'm a part two forever.

I'm in the part two club, that's what I call it. I'm, and I'm okay. We are like the black sheep. I'll bear, it's no problem, you know, but. The truth is, like you said, do you really need to get qualified? Listen, an a, a career as an Architect is fantastic. Okay? We talked about all the problems about some of the economic scenarios.

However, what job in the world do you get to build buildings that people go into and you can [00:26:00] offer yourself to the urban fabric. So I don't want to come 'em across like, uh, it's, it's a terrible thing. It's an amazing job, but equally the skills that you learn in part one and part two, that's helped me to run a business that's helped me to do all this stuff.

So it's an amazing skill and you can go off and two different things as well. Do you think we need to then start, stop talking about part one, part two, part three, Architect, or do we need to do that, but also encourage people to go, do you know what it's okay to study Architecture and do other stuff as well?

Alberto Villanueva: I mean, the question on, on naming things on one way, I, I think that is probably one of the problems that, or, or, or you call yourself an Architect and then you have done all that journey, or it feels that you don't know how to call yourself.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Alberto Villanueva: How do you, what is the label? And I think there is a problem of labeling things and I, I think, I think we need to find a way of [00:27:00] recognizing levels of achievement without framing or limiting people.

And, and you know, if, if you want to do a foundation in Architecture, then you progress into an undergraduate course on something else and you end working on something different. Great. But you starting on using your Architectural education skills. You do undergraduate and Yeah, you have done your part one and you might discover many of the things.

I mean, for example, we, we do lots of cross collaboration that is one of our pillars and ethos in, in, in my department. And the collaboration is not just about architects working with interior architects, with, uh, urban landscape architects or Architectural design engineers. And we are gonna open also planning and designing cities.

But it's also about can, can the Architecture students work with the games design students? Can, can the Architecture students work with the business students with the advertising and brand design? We're, we are working now with the advertising and brand design thinking in the, in the next year, [00:28:00] in the future.

And, and, you know, if the, the, the, the storytelling, the, the creativity, the,

way of selling things, that. those are also business skills that sometimes are not very well embedded in Architectural education. What happens if an Architectural student in after their part one, they go and into working in, into other sector, that is, they have discovered through that pathway.

I, I think the problem of naming things is, is, is slightly challenging, but we are, or you are or anyone is not less if they don't do the par three and qualify. I think that, that, that is, uh, uh, quite important. I dunno if I'm losing you there. I can say

Stephen Drew: Yeah, don't worry. Well, I'll edit

that. Bad boy. Bit out you back here.

Alberto Villanueva: Yeah, no, I, I think, I think we were talking about that not, not labeling things on, on a specific way, you know, that there is, I think something that we need to learn, learn and, and we need to do better. And, and that is what we are trying to [00:29:00] do at Ravens Point, and I know that many, many, many colleagues will agree with me is let's give more value to what is Architectural skills.

It doesn't matter if you just do the part one is that is the wrong way of thinking. Less, less. And, but I think that needs to come also with the support from industry, with the support from colleagues. The undergraduate level is important, and if you don't qualify as an Architect, it's absolutely fine as far as far as you can find the pathway and the route that you want to follow, because those Architectural skills might allow you to navigate many other scenarios.

And as I was saying, we have students, you know, we, we, our, our, uh, final year students, not year two students last year, they were designing a video game with the games design students using their own buildings. And that was fascinating because this, this is not about architects taking on the jobs of product designers, games designers, or filmmakers.

I'm not talking about, [00:30:00] oh, I'm here and because I'm an Architect now and I'm filmmaker. No, it's, it's about we, we keep talking for, for years and years about. Collaboration. Then let's, let's discuss how you can bring your skills in a scenario where we collaborate and then an Architect, someone doing animation, someone doing games design, can sit down together and create something.

But obviously that is in creative industries, that sounds quite straightforward, but we need to think about what happens in technology, in computing, in business. How do we bring those things where the Architect can contribute, collaborate, find their pathway? You know, I, I, I, I'm at the moment in, in the way that we are trying to validate our master of Architecture, we are looking into also an MBA related and attached to the,

that master of Architecture.

And someone told me, oh, that, that, that is very exciting because no one teach us

anything around businesses in, in [00:31:00] universities, usually in Architectural education. And it's like a hundred percent. I mean, uh, when I, when I set up my own office, I was literally lost. I didn't, I didn't have any

kind of, and it's a lot about nurturing.

It is

not that it's that difficult, but nurturing a lot

about what is entrepreneurship, what is managing a business? How, how do you run it? What, how, how do you operate things? And, and I think there are many spaces where we can create better pathways,

uh, through Architectural education at different

levels.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I am sympathetic. 'cause having been a business owner now, there is so much to

it. And also as architects, you need to then do the Architecture. So on one hand

I understand why it's not on the course, but then equally

when you go into.

Running an Architecture practice. I think most people just set it up and then they don't understand why it works.

They don't understand how customers get there. They don't understand how that works. They don't understand how they retain style. They don't [00:32:00] understand the liability. I mean, there's just so much pressure on architects. I mean, my gosh, even the liability front of it, it's just a nightmare. I mean, forget grenville for a second, but just now the amount of things you can get sued over as an Architect is insane.

So I dunno how to deal with that. But going back to your point though, how many cool skills though do you learn study in Architecture to help yourself in life?

The Value of Crits and Presentation Skills
---

Stephen Drew: I think it's Lowe's. Let's just talk about crits for one second. They get a bad rep, but actually running a crit, presenting your idea, getting ready to be demolished or built up or criticized.

I mean, that's where Craig comes from. That's a pitch, that's a business pitch. That's one of the

best experiences

that you have ready for the real world. So I'm always surprised that people who study Architecture go, oh, I'm not confident doing this and that. And I always say, you've done crates. [00:33:00] You can handle it.

You can

handle rejection.

Alberto Villanueva: Yeah, but I, I

think Stephen, you're, you are touching, you

have used two words there that

sometimes I, I think we need to be careful. One

is,

I think you say demolish and the other one

is

rejection. And, and

I think that

the, the, the problem

of, of what maybe we have created, I mean,

yeah, I mean, some people we were educated in a traditional old school

environment where. That was creating some resilience on you.

Some people will, will justify saying that, Hey, but look what I learned. Someone was like,

just, just just making it

like challenging.

I I think critics are important. Presenting is important. One of the major issues that I always say that

we have, at least at university here, is how do we build the

confidence of students? And obviously generations are changing,

different generations have different [00:34:00] approaches. We have very little

sometimes knowledge, uh, of how the school curriculum is happening. I think school teachers have such a difficult job because that is one of the areas that the government should really could be

looking more on how we support that education.

You know, what happens before higher education is probably way more important than probably this conversation that we are having.

But the problem is that how many of us

we have experienced how the grid

was about. Personalizing how the CRI was more about what we were wearing, how we were saying, you know, I remember that I had the theater that could criticize how would you sign and how your signature was looking like in a project.

And, and, and, and it could be absolutely crazy because we are all different. We all learn differently, but also we are all not coming from the same [00:35:00] privileged background that might allow you to deal with that in the same way.

For some people, this can become a very big thing. And you don't want,

you don't want to traumatize people then.

I think Cris are important. I agree with Cris, we need Cris, but it's about how do we do a good cri

and, and it is not about, oh, we should be banning Cris. But students really struggle. They really, many of them, they don't

want to be presenting their work.

And that make us think my, my team has. Lots of conversations about how

do we do it because people are different and we, we decided that this year we were offering

different formats everyone would need in the end to present, but we will need to

find

different ways that those presentations were

happening.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

that is interesting because I said it quite flippantly, but actually the memories of me doing it was printing out work the, the night before, screaming at a printer, being late, having been tired, then getting demolished, like I [00:36:00] said back then, and I don't know why we do this romantic notion on it before.

I mean, that was the thing about the report, wasn't it? I wonder though, 'cause I've been through that world,

then sometimes

we go like, oh, that's the way it was. Is it the Gordon Ramsey thing where screaming at a person you

go, oh yeah, but I screamed at you. But

now I've made you stronger. Look at you now But is

that's, that's not the right, the point is that's not the right way to

go, is

it? That's not sustainable. Truly.

Alberto Villanueva: No, because you, you can say the same thing. You, you can have honest conversations with the students. You need, you must have honest and open conversations with the students. I think the problem of that hierarchy of, um, creating this kind of gods of semi gods that I

am here and because I went through all this and I have built all this, now you have to listen to me.

Setting Clear Expectations
---

Alberto Villanueva: No, let's, let's make the student listen because you have something

meaningful to tell them. And, and then you can tell someone that their design is, is maybe not [00:37:00] great or is not that the, the place that needs to be. But you don't need to try and traumatize that person because you never know what is the story behind.

Maybe that person is dealing with someone in something in the background that, uh, is, is, doesn't allow them to be

at that place. But you, at the same time, you need to be very clear about expectations. Okay? We are in a place that you are not where you need to be.

Let's have an open conversation about how do we get

you where you need to be? And, and, and I think that I, I dunno,

I I don't think that I always do the right thing and I, I still make mistakes, but I, I agree with the beginning of the conversation around CREs,

but, uh, I, I think we need to rethink a lot about how we

build the confidence of the students without overprotecting them.

It's not about

overprotecting. Uh, this is not like when you have your child and it's like, oh, but this is my

child and I'm gonna be careful and everything is on this way.

No, you, you really need to be

open, transparent, and clear about where they need to be to be good at [00:38:00] that.

But yeah,

let's not traumatize anyone in

the journey.

Stephen Drew: Well sad. Well sad. It's interesting, isn't it?

Reflecting on Architecture Education
---

Stephen Drew: Those old days still are in my ecosystem and my world, and it's quite nice to see that that's not the only way. Going forward that it is. 'cause actually, when I think back on Architecture, I survived it. I got, um, a two one in the end. Oh, it was hard work. But how many people also dropped out of Architecture?

How many people were crying?

How

many people? It was this strange world. When you think back then,

not now. If you go back to the time me and you were there, it was like, you gotta keep going. You gotta do the long hours, you gotta go to the end. You've gotta burn yourself out. And what's all that about?

That's not

good.

Personal Challenges and Triumphs
---

Alberto Villanueva: Uh, and, and, uh, I, mean, I I never share this too much, but, uh, on my, on my personal journey, I.

Psychologically speaking, I, I had a very [00:39:00] challenging moment back in the day that when I, really, really,

was lost, I, I didn't want to go back to my family and to tell them, I, I think I'm failing on this, you know, many of us, we went far from home, uh, make an effort of being there and, and I was still quite privileged and I didn't have to do, uh, uh, the, the amount of part-time hours, full-time hours of working that many of my students do.

I think I wouldn't have been able to become an Architect, or it would have been a completely different journey. If, if I would have had to work the, the, the number of hours

that many of my students have to work then, then having it is different. Not worse or better, but it's challenging.

And, and, and, you know, you, you feel that you struggle, that you don't, you don't want to disappoint anyone.

You don't want to feel disappointed with yourself. You, you question your a lot about why you are doing this. Then I, I think we need to create also more

moments of. Reflection, reward and

celebration. It, it, it's [00:40:00] okay

if, if it's okay to get there in a different way. You don't need to be the top of the class and still being great in the

future.

Healthy Competition and Success
---

Alberto Villanueva: And I think, um, the competition is good. I'm very competitive,

but it's about, uh, how do you

establish healthy parameters

of competition about what you want to achieve and be honest with yourself. And, and you might just pass, but let's not forget, if you pass, you are still meeting the, the criteria. You are still meeting the learning.

No one is giving you your degree for free. Then if you just passed, but you were working a number of hours in a cafe, you were looking, you were the main character of your family. You were traveling every day, two hours and a half to get to the university, and you still managed to pass and get there. You succeed in that journey, you know, uh, and sometimes the problem is the competition, because we go back to the part of the conversation we were, were, when we were [00:41:00] saying, but who is gonna hire them?

And that is the problem, right? You, you need that portfolio and they, it needs to look like in one way.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Bridging the Gap Between Academia and Industry
---

Alberto Villanueva: And that is where me and and my team discuss all the time is what can we do better to make sure that anyone who goes through challenging journeys and cannot do the same, invest the same, or do the the same things in the same way,

can have the best outcomes to ensure

that they get. The best

possibilities and opportunities later in a, in a, in a workplace. And, and I think that that is where I always say we want to work with industry. We want people to help us to understand how we can do better, but obviously we need to invest. And the investment is not only

in Architecture offices, the investment is to come from the wider society, from the government, from local authorities, from many people that decided that they want to invest in, in the talent of people

and, and give opportunities.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, well said. I think. [00:42:00] It's an interesting time. It's an exciting time. You busted open what I said about crits. Now I wouldn't mind busting open one another way. I think we're on the same wavelength of this. I think that there's this dangerous romantic notion from Architecture businesses that, uh, students should.

Uh, print out a portfolio for each practice, hand deliver them, take them to the office, and it should be customized, a hundred percent printed. And it just really winds me up, Alberto. It really winds me up. Uh, and, and I've got into trouble. But I think you like my style, where some companies go, no, you should tailor it for two or three things.

And that's just so unfair and unrealistic to students out there. Students don't have a network. I didn't have a father who was an Architect. You're thrown out there into the world and you have to be [00:43:00] commercial with your time. You have to spread your bets. And that's a sin to say, isn't it?

The Role of AI in Architecture
---

Stephen Drew: I always say chatting, it might have been been on the Ravens Bond campus, but someone talking about the use of ai, should you use it in the

covering letter?

And it was like, no, you shouldn't use it. I'm not saying use it for it all, but that's like, to me it's like the 2025 version of saying you shouldn't use the spell checker. Of course you're gonna run it through ai. You, you, I think you're almost stupid if you don't. Um, but here we are, we are at this interesting crossroads.

How do you feel about students when they get in

their

first job? Do you think they should cast a net wide,

a

bit like what I've said and

tailor it to a few places? Or do you have a

view on that

or do you think that maybe, um, it doesn't matter what the companies think, as long as the student gets the job,

who cares?

Right.

Alberto Villanueva: uh, uh, it is, uh, I challenge, it's a, a challenge. I mean, I have different, different thoughts at the same time. [00:44:00]

Tailoring Job Applications
---

Alberto Villanueva: I think on our end, what we are trying to do, and I was today, today, yesterday, I was explaining to a

colleague that what we did with our, we created an

integrated foundation year for the students, like a year zero.

And the professional practice models became, first semester is about identifying and understanding spatial practices in

general, and the second semester was about identifying. Their approach to the disciplines through all the subject areas. And I think we, we can do a lot on making students to understand where they want to go because they might understand, oh, this is the kind of people that I want to work

with. And I think, yes, they should tailor it. They should, they should find a way. How do you find a

way to communicate to those companies that You you like, what they do? You can be the right fit for them, but then

at the same time, you know, you, I think when you came, uh, last time to Ravens when it was very funny because one of my

skills was [00:45:00] quite vocal, or it wasn't because one of them was saying, but someone told me in this practice the other day that I should be right in this, in this way.

And you are telling me the opposite.

And it's like, can you just clarify? And, and you know, there is no right or wrong.

I just, I, but

just, just, apply. I mean,

you, you, you have the approach of. You know, send all of them in this way and send them and, and you were very open.

I think there is no wrong or wrong, but let's, let's give the students

also the confidence to identify how they want to do it.

I mean, it, if someone doesn't want you because you put like 10 pages instead of eight, or you put two paragraphs instead of one, um, bloody hell. Maybe it's not the right place. Uh, I mean, I'm sorry to say, but I, I, I think people are more flexible nowadays

than what it was expected 20 years ago. And I hope

that people keep understanding that talent can be

shown in many different ways.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I completely agree.

Balancing Passion and Practicality
---

Stephen Drew: I'm just conscious of, I did [00:46:00] say at the start that you could ask me a bunch of questions and me and you like, we can keep going for two hours. I partly want that, but maybe at this point when we flip the script, you've got me alive. We're powering for everything. You've made time outta

your day.

We had the internet cut

off. We've had all this stuff, but it doesn't stop me and you. 'cause We will fucking keep going. Oops. I gotta bleep that out

now as well

when I edit it because I swore. But

it's all right. It's all right. It's my

podcast. I can bleep it out.

Come on. What would

you like to ask me? Raw?

Come

questions. Go

for

Alberto Villanueva: This is, this is very good because we didn't plan this then. I, I, I must admit that I didn't have a set of questions ready. I guess that one might be slightly personal, but, uh, Steven, everything that I know about you since I met you is you care. And I think people who cares are the people who.

Can't make the, the

change happen.

I dunno. My students, every time that they have [00:47:00] seen

you, they feel energized

by you. They, they, it feels that you connect. Where is this coming from? Steven? Why do you, you know, you are amazing at your job. You recruit, you, you, you, you make things happen for companies and you, you find jobs for people and you make all these things in a great way.

But why? Why to do it in this way? Why do you,

from where is

this

coming?

Stephen Drew: Well, I, I don't fully know is the honest answer, but I'll try. 'cause I joke, the private joke now is semi-public to the audience. I always joke with Alberto that me and Alberto are crazy. 'cause we go to events, we do all this stuff, we go out of our way. Why are we doing it? What are we

doing? But that's the point.

There's something in you. I think that's why you become an

Architect. 'cause you, want to solve problems. you have that appetite. you You just going out there. So I guess it comes from my place of

Quest, right? So for me, I'm not building the chart. It's okay. It's all right, [00:48:00] no problem. But what keeps us going, I think you've gotta find a purpose,

haven't you?

And there is a disconnect from, I think, especially academia and going out into industry Now. Part of my job also involves people in industry. Uh, w. People looking for jobs and practices and employment, and I find that deeply interesting. So, but I think you get my narrow, the, the more narrow version of it, of that bridge of part one, part two, part three.

So I think there's an opportunity in there because part one, gap, part two, gap part three, and we don't really. We don't really go into that. And it's a very interesting problem if you call it that, because the system's been there. We thought it was gonna change and it will a little bit. However, Architectural apprentice, the new way here we go is already been challenged.

So [00:49:00] we, whether you like it or not, the part two, part one, part two, part three, it isn't going away any quick. But there's a lot of exciting opportunities there and I, I don't know, apart from the way I would describe it is like when you're looking at an Architecture project and you're looking at potential, there's just so much scope there.

There's so much room to do things and also. Again, the system's kind of clunky. It's old school. It's a little bit broken in some ways, but therefore is the opportunity. Now, Alberto, the only thing is like you, I don't know how you have the patience to

keep saying things over and over again, which is why now I'm trying to

leverage my content.

I think that's why you are

a teacher. I can't I, I find it hard sometimes for the seventh hundredth time to say how many pages should go into a

CV, you know? But it's okay and

we'll get there, but I don't know all the

answers. I'm working out as I go along as well. Another thing, while we're here, I said to you about events.

Remember in

person, me and you talked [00:50:00] openly about it. Part of these things is you're an entrepreneur or you're building these things, or you as a university, you set up these events. You think they're gonna be crazy. You think they're gonna be amazing. You think everyone's gonna want to do it, and no one turns up.

When I had the forum years ago, there was the.

There was this amazing guy who was, wanted to do a BIM

course, and, and he spent hours Alberto right. Building this thing up. He made this competition. I was gonna give away a

prize. So back then we were on the pandemic. It was like a 5,000 quid prize. And so he built this whole course, built this competition, and it was

objectively, I was

like, this is

impressive. Someone's gonna

learn, someone's gonna win a prize. It's the

perfect thing.

And no

one entered, right? So I, I don't, so I'm constantly trying to learn. I'm constantly trying to

figure it out. Um, but

Alberto Villanueva: you're touching, you're touching in another thing there, but I, that is for another conversation, not for [00:51:00] today, but it's about the amount of

opportunities that are now out

there and how we should bring people more together

in, you know, it, it, because yeah, sometimes you have the most amazing thing and no one is there and you wonder why, and it happens all the time.

I mean, my, my team and I, we are all the time discussing, it's like, why no one came to this. We spent so many hours in the evening trying to create this and it's only one pe one person sitting down in that room. It's like, oh my God. Uh, it happens. It happens a lot. May I ask you one question?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, No. Yeah. You can ask me too. It's all right. Whatever you want.

Alberto Villanueva: Obviously you have invited me here, which I'm quite pleased. We have always very great conversations. Uh, you are always very kind and, and and,

but what would you like to see? You know,

I,

Future of Architectural Education
---

Alberto Villanueva: I, I mean, what is your message to, to the people that we are leading the schools or departments or areas in Architectural education.

What would you like to see in the next [00:52:00] year happening across universities, uh, Architectural courses in the uk? What would be your first wish, uh, in your list of things that you would like to see different, that you really would like to, to find out?

Stephen Drew: What would I, that is because you said in the, in

one year, it's

tough.

Alberto Villanueva: Well change. Change the timeframe. If you want, you

can

Stephen Drew: I'll do, I'll do the short, medium to long term, so me being slightly. Uh, pessimistic. I don't see part one, part two three changing. Right. So I just think we gotta make it the best we possibly can. I think the bit of work, which I'm really happy that you are doing is you are already bridging the gap with employers.

I think the fact that you've got Scott Brownrigg and others, I know there's more, but it's just 'cause I know them really well. It keeps popping in my head. That's fantastic. There's just so much more that all universities can, could be doing that I think that would be, that would be really, really powerful.

So I think constantly bridging that gap [00:53:00] because it's

load, there's loads of universities, there's loads of employers, and I think with employers, they're just

busy, right? But, so if you actually work out a way to, almost like a pitch quickly go, like if you trade in a bit of your

time here. Then actually there's a big opportunity for you.

'cause you can come in and hire some of my students and you will avoid a recruitment fee or whatever. So I think maybe there's a challenge there. Maybe there could be something really cool about how do Architecture universities speak to commercial businesses. So that's the short term thing, but I think that's gonna take years and years to do.

And then I think that, so in the medium term then it would be interesting to see how the universities change with artificial intelligence. What there's an opportunity there. I actually think it would be more of a positive than a negative. 'cause I think it'll never change the design, but how can we speed it up?

Um, a very controversial thing that Oliver Lowry, who I respect, I've known him for years. He's a client. He talked about even would you chop and change. [00:54:00] Part one, part two, part three, make it smaller. I'm not so radical as that. I think we just double down on the system we've got, but we bridge those gaps and there's just, there's just so much more work to do there.

So that's what I would like to see happening. And so I'm not gonna

cut the system up like Oliver lower, but how can we bridge those gaps? So for me, the gaps are part one. You finish,

you go out into the world, and part

two you finish and then you go out in the world again. If we can,

if we can work on that.

That's my mini

project.

Alberto Villanueva: Brilliant.

I I was taking notes on that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I haven't got the

answers. So we, we'll

have to work them out together. Right.

Alberto Villanueva: We only can try and work together.

There are many people that want to make things happen and I'm pretty sure that we can

Stephen Drew: Do you know, do you know when we were speaking now, when we were talking about purpose. It's strange. Why does anyone do it? It's a really interesting one, isn't it? Because actually we go through a certain event. It's not all about us. [00:55:00] Um, however, it's a lot easier for me and you to go home after five 30 of clocking off, Ryan.

So what, why, why do we do it? I, I, I think a lot of it comes down to purpose as well. So, uh, to me, just while we are here sharing where my head's at, at

the moment, I love solving problems in, in the business. Now the curse that I have comes from the

old school Architecture school that I mentioned. Remember I mentioned to you, cre, I mentioned to you demolish in, I mentioned to you this stuff and you kindly in a nice conversational way when we should challenge that.

And it is true. Now, the downside of the old school of Architecture is that I am a workaholic Alberta. I would work long hours. Into the evening. And is that sustainable, uh, in, in life?

No. And you have to reign it in. However, this is where it gets a bit mental. Running a business in the UK is so incredibly [00:56:00] hard, and if you don't give it 110%, it's almost impossible to do.

The dropout rates are insane. So in there comes this contradiction. You can't, you can't run a business halfassed and, and therefore the temptation is to throw yourself 150% in, but you get burnt out. So getting that happy medium is really hard, especially in Architecture when we romanticize working hard like the Fountain Pen film, you know?

So I don't know the answer. I think it's a balance, and I think that on one end, the Architecture. The rigorousness of the course. I think it really trains you up to be a well-rounded person, but the old school Architecture can burn you out. So I'm looking forward to new wave, well-rounded Architecture, practice, uh, Architecture, universities and practices

and people [00:57:00] like yourself getting the balance. But how you do

it, Alberto, I think that's hard, isn't it? The old and the new. Not beating people into the ground, but also getting them ready for the big, harsh, bad world out there and there somewhere in,

there's the sweet point, isn't there?

Alberto Villanueva: Yeah. Yeah, it,

is. But we can make, I think that the, the, there is something about that purpose that you say and

also the.

the.

legacy and sometimes the

responsibility. I, I feel that being in academia for example, it feels like a responsibility of, I, I, you know,

I, there are things that might not be working, but it's not about the bad world.

I think that the world is incredibly amazing out

there, is we just need to fill it out. You know, that the amount of people

that I have met in my, my journey here since I lead at Ravens from that, that does amazing

things. And yesterday, for example, we were having

the, the private deal of the

Accelerate summer show.

Uh, a celebr from Open City, what they do and amazing, we're 16 to 18 years old. [00:58:00] The, the, the

the community of architects and colleagues that were around that

event thinking and the

things that might, might, you could change is, is phenomenal. There are so many people doing

so many of the, um, amazing things.

Then I think, I think there is a lot of space to enjoy and it's just being mindful also,

you don't want to kill yourself in that

journey because it, it, it's true. And when you are curious, you're active, you, you're

a

problem solver. You, you want to do many things. But yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I, in a way, we, we tared this in a way that I was asking you the questions, which I love and I think has been also

interesting listening to you in that

aspect.

Final Thoughts and Farewell
---

Stephen Drew: Well, I, I, I'm I'm happy to share because, uh, it is deeply personal that that hard work ethic has got me we to where I am. But then it's also, there's a price to pay. And I think if you can get that balance and in part that on people, then I think that's a massive gift to Architecture and Architecture professionals going forward.

So I'm a big fan of Alberto, of [00:59:00] all you've done. I think you're absolutely

fantastic. You know, I, I gotta try and hide that a little bit and come off somewhat

balanced. Um, for the audience

though, who doesn't know you, if they want to follow up

with you after this or the university, I'll bring up the website

now, but where can they, where can they find you,

sir?

Alberto Villanueva: Where they can find me.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, online. In, around, where are you knocking around these

days?

Alberto Villanueva: Just come to North Greenwich and and come to Ravens from waiting in front of the, just say in the reception. I, I want to speak to the boring guy that does Architecture. But yeah, I, I'm, I, I'm quite active on LinkedIn. Uh, I think it's one

of the best ways that I, I, I found to connect

many ways, uh, try to do a bit of, uh, Instagram. I cannot do much more than that. Someone tried to convince me to do TikTok, no way. It's not happening. Uh, but yeah, please, I mean, uh, I always open and always happy to have a chat and, and, and to speak to anyone from students, [01:00:00] employers, colleagues, uh, people that just are interested in having a good chat. I, I think there is a lot of opportunity always.

Stephen Drew: It's brilliant. You are the best and, I think it is the, best. So everyone should check it out. Raven's born in Greenwich, in my neck of the woods. I'm Alucian

boy. it's down there. Come see Alberto as well and connect with him on LinkedIn as well. I think Instagram, you're too cool for me.

However. However, I can also connect with you on LinkedIn.

Albert Alberto, you've been an

absolute pleasure. I'm gonna end the live stream now. Stay here for one minute, Alberto. cause I'm gonna say to everyone in the audience, thank you for watching

this, and I will edit it so no one will know what did or didn't happen. We, my internet cut out for a minute. However, lots of other events coming up soon.

I really appreciate you being here. What will happen in Architecture, uh, universities in the next few years, we will see and we will hold Alberto accountable. But it's [01:01:00] good. It's fine because it's good to speak to good people on the ground. Thank you so much everyone. Take care everyone. [01:02:00] [01:03:00] Bye-bye.