Are Architecture Job Boards still useful?

0013 - Are Architecture Job Boards still useful?
===

Jack Moran: [00:00:00] It's live. We're doing it. It's Tuesday. It's 5 p. m. We are the team from the Architecture Social and McDonald and Company. My name is Jack Moran. I'm joined by Will Ridgway and Stephen Drew. How are you doing today, boys? Hey, I'm all right. Yeah, I'm not too bad, thank you. Still trucking on in this in this apocalyptic world, but we're still going, aren't we?

So Apocalyptic? I don't see any nuclear bombs on the side. I think you've been playing Fallout too much, Jack. I've been hiding in my, I've been hiding in my house haven't I? I know, so I'm still wondering if I go out there, what's it like?

Stephen Drew: That's all right, we can go out now, as long as we're on And and if anyone under six, six groups, don't worry in fives, the virus won't catch you, but six too much.

Jack Moran: Oh, also remember the virus knows when you're at work. So when you're at work, it won't get you, it will wait at the door. Traditionally, a lot of our podcasts have been centered around architectural [00:01:00] careers, haven't they? We decided that as we are recruiters, we've gone for a bit of a topic today, which is a bit niche, but I think to anyone who is either someone looking for a job.

Or a recruiter, or even a client, an in house recruiter who works for a practice, looking through the job boards. Or an architectural practice owner, someone themselves. There's a lot to take from this, that's honk number one. We're gonna have to get a little counter going, aren't we? Yeah, job boards, Stephen, why don't you give us a sort of lowdown on the idea of them.

Stephen Drew: Okay, so job boards. We all know, we've all heard about or seen job boards over the years, right? And so job boards, they've been around for a long time. Not quite to the cave ages, but it's not far away from that. I think that what, back in the old days when I was a bit younger, now I'm creeping up and now I'm catching up.

You'd find that most job boards were printed. physically in magazines. So you'd have [00:02:00] magazines, you'd have the Arctic's Journal, you'd have beautiful jobs, you'd have stuff like that. And then, and so it'd be building design magazine. And in the latter pages, you would have the job adverts. And That was how people found about jobs before the internet, because you didn't have the internet, you didn't have anything like that.

A magazine that would come to you in an architectural practice, so for instance, the Architectural Journal, when it was delivered, you'd have a little look at the jobs there, and anyone that publicized jobs on there, they would get applicants, because that was the only way, unless it was word of mouth and you knew someone, you would find out about a job.

And what you've the thing is, we've gone more and more digital. We've moved away from physical physical publications. And job boards have been online. The thing is, there's more and more job boards. And now you have Google Jobs, which is an algorithm, which, Collage Companies, Collage, Jobs, Saxon, [00:03:00] and Data Scrapes from company websites.

And as well as that, you have other ones like Indeed and Nuvo. Okay, so you have these kind of newfound job boards as well. And so I thought it would be good to talk about this because there's a lot of people right now looking. It's a bit of a tricky time. You have some people which Luckily you have day jobs, might be considering moving because perhaps the practice is struggling.

You have some people who are unfortunately made redundant because of furlough. Either been put on furlough or they've been made redundant because of the coronavirus, right? So naturally your first reaction is I need to look for a job and I think that most people think is the first step, right? Where do I find a job?

And they look for job boards. And so my question is, are job boards still the most prevalent tool to find a job right now? It's the first thing we think about, [00:04:00] are they the most effective? Because times have changed, you've got a lot of job boards. And I wonder whether they're the most successful way to go about looking.

That was why I thought we'd talk about this. I'm going to throw a question and I'm going to have a bit of fun with this new app. William Ridgway, and I'm going to try and focus it on you. Oh, there we go. William Ridgway, the spotlight is on you. What is your opinion? on job boards right now. And do you think they're an effective tool to get a job in this current climate?

Will Ridgway: As you said, they're like the go to place. If you're looking for a job, the first thing you do to find a job is a job board. And I think that's just because we've all grown up or been educated to to basically say that's where we should go to find a job. And we've not been told otherwise.

And so that's our default location. And the problem with that is that. Everyone does it. And whilst it's effective, to put an advert out there and get [00:05:00] lots of recipients. The problem is from what I find anyway, in recruitment is that you get a lot of recipients. A lot of people and it becomes very difficult to stand out.

I think as well from a employer's perspective as well, it's difficult to make your job stand out amongst every other job on the job board. Because again, when an employer wants to advertise a job, get it out to as many people as possible, they also use job boards mostly. And so it becomes there's just so much going on over there.

It's very difficult to stand out and actually basically showcase your studio that you might be advertising for the role. It's difficult to show that. And as well as a candidate as well, you get very limited information. You generally have a limit. Unless you do further research where you go onto their website, you'll generally you generally have a sort of a finite amount of information that gives you an overall idea of the studio and things as well.

If you're desperate and you're looking for a [00:06:00] job, particularly nowadays, it's important to have volume as opposed to quality. If you put volume and go through so many different jobs, you don't have time to go on every single website. So I don't particularly think they're a good default, but I don't

Stephen Drew: necessarily rely on them at all.

I agree. And so you've touched upon a few things. So from an employee's point of view, you can, because job boards cost money and everything else, if you find someone, great, it's a return on investment. And I think all the time what's happened is there's been so many job boards that I've used job boards before.

When I had my recruitment company, I used Ezean and once or twice we found someone and that's great. You spend 200 quid, you find someone. It's oh, happy days. That was an easy process and the return on investment is quite high. There's a lot of times, and even for instance, as a recruitment consultant now we pay for job boards.

I pay for job boards. And it's really questionable the amount of the, [00:07:00] sometimes the quality of candidates and you can't blame them because I think, as you said, it's sometimes it's really hard to, if you've got loads of jobs in this job board, right? How is your company going to stand out? And it's the same thing when we post a job.

It's a delicate art form to convey the company on a job board, especially in a crowded. In a crowded market. And so it's the same thing that you have with candidates as well as employers right now. So employers, you, I think that you're going to get more applicants right now using JobBoys because of coronavirus.

But the question is about the quality of candidates. On the flip side, if you're someone looking for a job right now, it's what Will said. The first thing everyone does is look on a job book, right? So I question, if a job goes on Dizzee right now, I guarantee you their inbox is teeming. It's full of applicants.

And the issue is with that, is that [00:08:00] If, for instance, the architectural practice is organized, yes, you can go through it. If they've got plenty of time, great. And they can sift through that, but it's going to be overwhelming. And if the company's under pressure, these CVs can get completely lost. And chances are, if a job's being put on Dezeen I reckon after this one day after right now, that inbox is so full that you're competing with so many people.

So we got catch 22. So basically the nature of a job board, it changes seasonal. So right now, because of the coronavirus, there is less jobs than there are. People looking. Okay. So that means that if a job goes up, you're likely to get a good response. So that is better for the employer currently. I would say about a year or two ago, it was the opposite situation.

So when you're in a position when there's Plenty of [00:09:00] jobs, and you're trying to attract the best person, the right person for a role, then you're going to find that the jobs are going to get, the job boards, they can work sometimes, and other times, they can't. That job might be lost, might be lost in translation.

So right now, the point where I'm trying to say is from, if you are someone looking for a job looking to, if you find a job on a job board, chances are there's a lot of applicants for it. Okay? So if you're someone looking for a job right now, I pose the question, do you think your chances of finding a job are high or easy if you apply for a job on the job boards?

Maybe if your CV is great, you might stand out. There's going to be a lot of competition. So what I wonder is the way that job boards are changing, the way that Google is changing, the way that [00:10:00] everything's changing. We have all these tools. Online. Okay. And it's the same thing, whether you are a company or you are someone who is looking for a job, because if you're someone looking for a job, you need to convey a good impression of who you are, what you're about, and you need to get across to this company Your skill set.

You need to reach out for them in all the noise. And there's a lot of noise right now. There's a lot of competition. Okay, so if you're someone looking for a job, you've got to get your CV and portfolio. Now, the easiest way to reach out to a company is to approach them direct. And we've talked a fair bit about this in the past Will and Jack on our seminars, how they go about on our webinars, how to go about looking for a job directly.

And I think with all the tools we got at hand, you can quite easily go on Google, find jobs close to you, find the right kind of company. And if you approach them [00:11:00] direct, and there isn't a job advertised then chances are if there is an opportunity you're gonna have much more luck you're gonna have much more luck competing for that role because it's off the market and it's the power of knowing people as well because In a time and age where everything is online, something that isn't online could be equally special.

If you know someone who can recommend you for it, you're going to get that step up and you're going to basically meet this job aboard competition world. And so that's the question I pose, so are jobs still useful? I think they put, they set the point. I think it's changed and I think that the role of a job board is diminishing.

Everyone said for the years, including me at one point in recruitment, Jack, job boards are going to die. They're going to be dead. And I don't agree with that. I think they'll always serve a purpose. [00:12:00] You just have to know how they are. And so if you're an employer or if you're a candidate, they're a tool to use.

And what Will said, the job boards, it might grab someone's attention if you're an architectural practice, but it's a very limited scope. And it could be someone just applying. So if you're an architectural practice, you want to promote the company Culture. The best way to attract people is to promote good design, have a very clear website, which people can find by location or by keywords.

And then when they're on the website, they see the architectural practice. They see the company culture. They get a feel for the practice. They get a feel for what it's like to work there. And that will attract More people, good quality, people who have good values, that ideally resonate with the company.

And therefore, when someone applies direct, over time, you will have people which [00:13:00] match your synergy. Okay, and it's the same thing with, as a candidate. If you are someone job seeking, If you've got your CV and portfolio, and if you are looking at the moment, and if you go searching for architectural practices off the beaten track, everyone knows about Heatherwick, everyone knows about Zahra Deeds, and you'll get the same people posting jobs.

There's a few that do not post their jobs. Skidmore and Demeril never post a job. That's a big company. There's loads of companies that we work with. For instance nice companies medium size, tender people, 20, 30 people, great companies. And when you go on their website, they're fantastic.

Maybe they're just not as prominent in your perspective. And your perspective is formed by what you see online and your current world. We're all in our own little bubbles. Okay. And if you just use job boards, then you are fragmented to [00:14:00] one particular little bubble. So I think you need to, if you're someone looking for a job, view them as a tool to be used, but remember they're highly competitive and they're the old age formula.

So what so what I think now boys would be really good. So Mr. Jack Moran, let me throw you up. Let's get you up on there. Oh, Will, wrong person. Why are you taking the space out? Let's get Jack on. All right, Jack. Jack, good to have you here. Will, stop blocking the camera. And I'm just thinking out loud. We're talking about a job as a tool.

How many other ways can we think of that will get people a job right now? How many different ways? How many tools have we got? So maybe we can go through digital. So what have we got? LinkedIn, what have we got, Jack? You've

Jack Moran: got LinkedIn, you've got job boards. You've got to look at it like this as well, job I feel like we sit at the sort of tipping point [00:15:00] where You know how you talk about job boards, they're simply going to become like mundane. They already are mundane, but I think that we are Whoa! If any job

Stephen Drew: boards are watching, Jack Moran called you mundane. I didn't say that. Yeah, I'll say I'm Give it a dive.

Yeah, forever, yeah. He's coming out strong.

Jack Moran: Reason being, if you're Do you know what? The most common people who are going to use job boards are People who are looking for sort of a generalist role, not necessarily something specific within a specific industry or market. Okay. So for those more experienced who like look in architecture, for example, it's highly unlikely, like you said, that, you're going to find a lot of architecture jobs.

Maybe part ones might be the exception, but traditionally speaking, it's going to be either through a headhunt or recruiter, or they're going to have their own job boards on their own pages, or they might post it on Zee. Do you not think it's funny though, how like job boards are the sort of reason that recruiters were essentially created in the first place?

Because Oh, I [00:16:00] wasn't created because of a job board. Ah, not you per se. However, We touched on a topic earlier of how you get if you put a job advertisement on a job board, especially in this current climate, you're likely to get a huge amount of applicants on you. Okay. So you think back just before, just after dinosaurs, stopped roaming the planet when Steve was born, then I think what we're all seeing is that's what they would have had at this time.

The reason recruiters, there's a need for recruiters in the first place is because there's far too many there's far too much traction, isn't it, for the advertisement and they simply don't have the resources to go through it. So in that way, that's why I'm saying recruiters do have a, job boards do have a sort of part to play.

But like you said, now, I don't think, whereas at all, I think, you give it another few decades. I think we're going to be at the point where job boards are going to become nullified. Okay.

Stephen Drew: I agree with what you said, but I asked for, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna honk off. Yeah, do you want me to answer the question?

I asked for how many tools are out there. [00:17:00] You're

Will Ridgway: out. We'll bridge the way. Come on in. So answer your question about other ways. to find a job before Jack's war on job boards kicks off again. Push him in the background.

Stephen Drew: We know which camp Jack's in. I'm in the neutral camp.

I love Jack. I like that you speak your mind there. Praise Bell.

Will Ridgway: Very good. Yeah. So other ways to look for jobs. You mentioned LinkedIn earlier, which I think LinkedIn, whilst it's not a job board, it is, it does function as a job board as well, a little bit, but the only difference is that. People have their own profiles.

It's a lot more visual as well, which is where it stands out a little bit to job boards. A lot of job boards, they don't have those visual images, whereas LinkedIn, you can quite easily click on and see what that web, what that studio is. Currently advertised studios currently doing what projects are doing.

But other ways to go about it is to also just approach companies directly. Cause like you said, it's the company, lots of companies don't advertise their jobs at all. And [00:18:00] that's why it's important to Go to their website, go to these websites, look at their company, because then that's rather than writing a a few paragraphs about why you should join the company or details of the job, you get to the cell is the actual website itself.

You see the projects, you see the culture and and then obviously there's a little bit about who what they're looking for. And in addition to that as well, there doesn't even need to be a. Potentially a job requirement on that website, you can still approach the company and find out if they are hiring at all, or if they would need someone of your skill set.

And so those are the other ways as well. So just go directly to it. I think as well, you mentioned it earlier as well, Steve, but it's about referrals as well. So if if you've got a friend who might be looking. for a job, you can always refer them to your own studio that you're working for at the moment, or even say, actually, I heard from someone else that this company's hiring might be a good idea to have a [00:19:00] check over there because word of mouth is generally it's not in, it's not in the mainstream media where you see Zahadeed Advertising.

These other niche but really good quality studios who are advertising need help, who aren't necessarily getting as much attention as the, the top dogs. And at the same time, not everyone wants to work for the top dog, so it's quite difficult to sometimes find these hidden companies. So it's about approaching them directly.

different ways you can try and find these companies whether it's through RIBA do they still have a page where you

Stephen Drew: can find? Good question. You asked that. So they have a job board right now, but I think the recruitment agency part of RIBA is gone. And yeah, I think you're right. It's all about.

The way you're gonna get a job is by reaching out to a company. And so a job board is a tool, right? There's many ways of reaching out, except the best way is gonna do it. You, your CVM portfolio is always gonna be killer. And we've done a few things, but talking about that, right? And the personality and going into a practice.

So getting on the phone [00:20:00] and for calling AB after you send a CV is gonna always leave an impression. Okay. Which is gonna. Go tenfold. So whether you approach a company directly or through a job board, as long as you follow up and then give it your best, so that the CV and portfolio is delicately done, it's done in a professional, clean way, we've done stuff on, we've done talks on that and about how to do that, then great.

Okay, so So a typical job board is a way to reach out a company. The point is, we the point is, they will typically have, I feel the word, you're going to get more people for it. So what you want about Will and Jack, I love the enthusiasm and what you were saying as well is that job boards right now, from a candidate's point of view, is competitive.

From an employer's point of view, you are going to get a lot of applicants. The question is how relevant they are to the role because there's a lot of people in a tricky [00:21:00] situation and they're going to apply. Okay, so it's a bit of a catch 22. Let's talk about. Specific tools. So if you are someone looking for a job right now, I would use Google and I would start mapping out all the companies near you, and I would meticulously go through all the companies, step by step, and we've done a little webinar on this, haven't we, Jack and Will, where we go into specific how to reach out and how Grab these companies attention.

So use a Google to map things by location and apply to them. Yes, look at a job board and keep an eye on it. You can actually use certain tools to, I think they're called web trackers. So have a little look at a web tracker. You could set one up on a job board. Okay. And so whenever, or email alerts, you serve it up, you have it on our website, a McDonald's company in terms of recruitment.

So when a job gets posted, you get beep, you get the reply, you get a notification and speed is of the essence when those go up. [00:22:00] So no harm in setting up job alerts. And I would say, keep an eye on companies that you really like and follow their news websites. And if you are interested in their work, then if someone wins, for instance, a project, drop them a message, say hello.

Networking events, trying to make a good impression on people over time. That's a really good way. That's a really good tool to do it. Because if you think about a job board, what it is there's a job need, but if you a posted job needs, but if you have met the company and you've got to have made a really good impression and they're aware of you, then suddenly when a job goes up.

Hey, why would they spend money and post a job or brief a recruiter? Because recruiters charge a fee as well. That's part of my time to find new people or find the relevant person for the role. If they know someone already, then great, you get them on board. And that's the point of networking.

And so my theory or what I would take away is think about instead of just the job board, [00:23:00] think about. You being connected. That's actually our slogan, McDonald company. I need to get like a crisp sand. It's be connected. Like the, remember like the Nokia thing I was hearing in my head? But there actually the, there the slogan, the logo, the slogan where is it By the slogan?

Be connected. There is something in that, because. I think that rather than sending an application through a job board, which is a little bit unpersonal, the best thing to do to sell yourself is to be a real person and to make them aware of you. So I just actually noticed, we got a little question coming in here from Facebook.

I

Jack Moran: was about to ask you that question, actually. All right, cool. Come on, Jack. So as a recruiter, so as you're doing a recruitment, Do you usually search for profiles to fill questions, or? We can put it on the screen. Hey! I [00:24:00] like that. I like that. That's cool, isn't it? Shotgun first. I'm answering this question first.

So I think, I probably have only ever filled one position during my time in recruitment from an application from someone actually applying to my job. I'd 100 percent, say that the large majority of positions that I've filled have come from me actively going out to the market. Using the tools provided and actually approaching people individually I feel like as we touched on when it comes to receiving applications, it can be quite the dreary task if you have X amount of applications that you just have to sift through for a position.

Whereas if you're able to utilize some of the platforms that we do in recruitment, such as the LinkedIn recruiter service, you're able to gauge a much better idea of people's skills and capabilities. Because you can look through their past experience, you can see what software they're [00:25:00] savvy with you can also see referrals from other people.

I almost couldn't go as far to say LinkedIn is, it has, LinkedIn is the CV now, and LinkedIn is used all over the world, and, really scanned heavily by recruiters. So my answer would be 100, well 99 percent of what I've done has come through actively searching for people, not people coming to me.

That's

Stephen Drew: interesting. I like that. I would say that as well. I think that in terms of recruitment, you're right that LinkedIn you can make a quick impression and you can search for certain keywords and find someone. I do think then it does come down to the strength of the CV and portfolio.

Especially in architectural roles, which require design or technical abilities. But where it's interesting that you mentioned, Jack, because your specialization, you do architecture, but you also do the support staff and the strategic staff in architectural offices. And I think you're right there, especially though, in, for instance, an [00:26:00] office management role, you get quite a quick picture on whether the person's relevant.

And that is through how well they've laid out their LinkedIn, not necessarily a job application. So what you're saying is that you've found people directly who have communicated on LinkedIn or reached out to you or you've met or you've been referred to. That's often a big one isn't it? When I get a recommendation from someone and they say oh this guy, Will Ridgway is the

Jack Moran: best,

Stephen Drew: then

Jack Moran: If I can just jump in, like you say, if you take practice managers, you take the HRs who work in these practices, A lot of them network in circles and because, various kind of jobs will require a high level of maybe qualifications or, certain sets of skills which are normally detailed on people who have done those, it's detailed on their LinkedIn sections.

And like you said, because people can give recommendations and we always work off that golden rule that, good candidates know other good candidates. It's all about the being connected [00:27:00] to the circle, they stay within them. So yeah, definitely. Definitely when it comes to the support roles you're

Stephen Drew: able to identify.

It's interesting because that's like a window into who, how you think in terms of finding someone. So if you were a job seeker listening, have a little think about how Jack went through that mentally. He was talking about how he finds someone, how he sees certain abilities. So how you optimize. your appearance online and how you are more online and offline actually that's a good point how you constantly market yourself online and offline is the key so online if your linkedin is tip top and you've got your beautiful website if you've got one then great and all this stuff and if you're active in the community then If you, and then offline, so before coronavirus, you can still do it online now, but remember, I used to go to a lot of events, didn't I guys?

And then I'd meet some amazing people and that's because they were there and I was there [00:28:00] and that's the point. You've got to be in it to win it. And that's what I like about for instance, what we've done a little bit with the architectural social. Oh, let me get the, let me get the banner up right now.

Oh, come join us on the ArchitecturalSocial. com. Just saying, might have a little quick look. That's www. ArchitecturalSocial. com. Hey, yeah, I love it. What it is a sense of community. And what I've learned is that, see, the thing is, you can get lost on job boards. You can get lost on LinkedIn.

You can get lost in all these places. And we've seen successes on the architectural social when people mix and they get involved with each other. And so it's the conversations that you guys have with each other is the strength is the value to you. So someone said to me the other day, they sent me a message saying that they actually found someone on the architectural social and went to play tennis with each other.

So we've set up a tennis club, but ladies and gentlemen, we've done [00:29:00] it. And what I thought was interesting about that is connections. And so you have to think about people that you're going to meet in these groups. Could be hiring managers, could be directors of architectural practices of tomorrow. So when I joined at EPR Architects, um, I met some really good people who are now associates and going throughout their careers.

I've gone in my career as well, and the point is the people that you network with and by being social, by, by speaking to people, speaking to your colleagues, keeping in touch with people that move to other companies and generally being friendly and actually by doing a good job where you currently are, that's the word of mouth that's going to get you a job.

Okay, if, for instance, someone recommends you, that is infinitely more powerful than a job application on a job board. In a roundabout way, oh, what's that noise? Who's that? Is that you, [00:30:00] Jack? That'd be me, I live near the train station, so I can train as good as I can. I've heard there's a bathroom there, so you can go if you want, it's alright.

We're streaming from the train station. Yeah. Jack, I saw you on your

Jack Moran: phone, who were you ringing? I wasn't ringing anyone, mate, I was I was just checking out the Architectural Social. Were you applying for a job board? Because I swear I will find that job board. No, I was, dude, I was actually on the Architectural Social, just checking out some of the latest projects by some of our fantastic graduates, who've just posted some of their work on there.

Alright. in a community that isn't. How's that? Yeah, I feel

Will Ridgway: like I feel like both of you, let's

Stephen Drew: first get you on the big screen.

Will Ridgway: Yeah, I was going to touch upon that question a little bit. I know you really answered it already. But I think when you're recruiting and also applying for jobs boils down to two different things and that's Passive and Active.

For a recruiter, passively recruiting would be to throw an advert out on a job board and wait for the replies to get back. And the problem with that is, [00:31:00] we've touched upon it, there's so much information to get through and it's quite difficult as well to convey the emotion of the student. I think the fact that I think the fact that I get People who apply to my job twice on different days suggest that a lot of people, first of all, aren't necessarily reading through reading through the adverts.

And secondly as well all the job advertisements are mixing into one big one. It's very difficult to differentiate them. And that's why, that's where job boards fail in the sense that it's, you can't convey the emotion the studio, the identity of the studio on a job board. And I think as well, when you're applying for jobs you're just going through them, you don't get to digest the information properly because you're just going through them one by one.

So for me, I can't wait necessarily to wait for someone to apply to the job. That's correct. I have to go out there and find someone. I think I've probably made two placements of from people who've applied to my job. Everything [00:32:00] else is me going out there to find people instead. And that's all people ringing me up based on whether they've seen a job advertisement from me, but they ring me up first.

And they immediately stand out because I suddenly have a personal connection with them, as opposed to just a online CV. And so it's not necessarily about just applying for jobs week after week. It's actually about going out there and trying to grab the spotlight for yourself. And to do that, you make you approach companies, you call them up, you be friendly.

Professional. And that's the best way to get a job as a, from a candidate side.

Stephen Drew: Love it. Okay. So if we were to rank in a packing order where we think a job board is, Jack, do you think the job board should be at the top of someone's list or middle or the bottom? Oh, I like your Roman empire thing.

All right. Okay. That's cool.

Jack Moran: All right. Jack, you give it away. All right. [00:33:00] And I can give a good reason why. And Will touched on it. Will just said a very good point as to why these job boards are becoming mundane. In this current climate, so you've not got a job. Oh my god, I need a job because I'm running out of money.

Okay, so I better go onto a job board and start applying for some jobs. So I'm just going to go A, click, apply. B, click, apply. C, click, apply. It's becoming so much of a numbers game, sort of statistics when you're just pumping it out and you're not, I don't really feel like a lot of people are giving it their full attention.

Will said, if he's had two applications from the same person in the same day, that really shows that they're not giving that much attention to what's what's going on. Yeah. Great input, Will. I love that. But yeah, so that, that's why job boards as, as a tool, they're great because you might always miss out something.

But for me, there will always only be. That tool at the bottom that just can make your life a little bit easier should, say, an architecture practice decide that they want to open the floodgates and let all the applications, all 16, [00:34:00] 000 applications flood their inbox. Whereas you look at something like LinkedIn, where you have actual specific variables.

within a detailed search engine that allows you to pick out specific people based on even like experience where they've been if they've worked at a certain place before.

Stephen Drew: So you like you like LinkedIn in terms of finding people. It's your favorite digital tool. 100%. I get, when I post out a job on LinkedIn, because I have a big audience, I get a lot of people interested.

If you're someone, remember Jack, before you were the now knowledgeable, awesome Jack Moran at McDonald Company, remember when pre McDonald Company, the same now before you joined us, right? And you, when you were looking for a job, LinkedIn, I think it can be helpful, but it's a bit hit and miss. The best person to help find jobs was you.

How did you go about getting a job at McDonald's? That would be interesting to learn. It's gonna be funny. Yeah, I can't remember.

Jack Moran: I know, I got it [00:35:00] for a job order. So did I.

Stephen Drew: You helped Jack out in the past. Now you're dead to me. However, that was common

Jack Moran: ego. What I said though is true because even when I applied for the job, it came as a result of going through a job board and doing a bit of clicking and applying.

I knew that I was quite into recruitment as an idea for a career or I was into an IT as a career. And thankfully I came across Mac Co and I met your wonderful face and then, the rest is history. But it still is, it is just going to always be that sort of mundane task. It's not going to have any.

sort of personality to it. The great thing we'll touch on as well about the whole LinkedIn recruiter thing is that you have that relationship ongoing. How much of the professional life is about relationships of other people, be it a recruiter, potential employer, interviewer, anyone. It's all about relationships and being connected as it were.

I think you're right and

Stephen Drew: this relationships. Online and offline [00:36:00] and LinkedIn can be a catalyst to make stuff happen, but it's going to be the phone call or me and someone are going to an event from that LinkedIn or from the Architectural. So the Architecture Social is a really good example where I think the best people on the platform that get something from it are people that get involved, do something and show that in case they work.

If it's you don't want it to be, remember we used analogy before, it's a gym a gym, what you call it, like a dance, and all the boys on one side of the wall, all the girls on the other, and you got to get involved and mix it up. And I think in life that people, remember the I done it, because I key, I mentioned this story before, look, because me and Will were there, and there was, remember that guy, that approached us well and was just so on it to network and do stuff and he ended up he works as our lead now so point was he went out there and networked and he made things happen for him

Jack Moran: it's value for a reason isn't it

Stephen Drew: Yeah but i agree with you jack it's in these tools if you use them they're a catalyst to get there but Please do not think that the be all and end all.

That's not [00:37:00] the final straw. You have

Jack Moran: to, it has to be the individual person who really sells the deal.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think so as well. Oh, we've got a like as well in the corner. Have you seen that, ladies and gentlemen? Oh, gents actually, we're all gents here. All gents. We've got a little I'm getting used to this platform, so I can't see it.

Can you see, so can you see the quick sanity check, can you see the chats, the people? Can you actually see the stuff around the screen or is it just me? I think it's just you. I'm going, okay. If anyone could do it, we would just be fighting for control. Yeah, everything would be going like this, it's just going around crazies, whoa!

Jack Moran: What question did you want to ask

Stephen Drew: me, Steve? I wanted to ask you how you got your amazing job working on my fantastic team. It was also through a job board. Now,

Will Ridgway: I will argue

Stephen Drew: Job board! Got a job again! Everyone's getting a job through a job board!

Will Ridgway: I will argue I think that, Job boards have different impacts between different [00:38:00] industries.

The reason why I don't feel like it works very well with architecture is because architecture is generally, whenever I'm speaking to someone about a practice, I'm speaking over the phone about it. The question they want, they always ask me is that, can you send me a link to their website so I can look at their projects?

You can't look at someone's projects on a job board. And that's why. That's where the job boards fail because in architecture it's so visual it's important. Interesting point. Job boards miss out, the job boards miss out on that. But I, in terms of using a job board on your search, I think it's still worth having a go at it, but I wouldn't put all your eggs in one basket and I wouldn't necessarily use it as a main focus.

Yeah. So I'd put it, I'd put it like diagonally down, not all the way. But like there, because it's

Jack Moran: why if Will would never be an emperor in Rome, because he can't even, he can't even give it a thumbs down or a thumbs up. Should we finish it? Oh,

Will Ridgway: I'm not too sure.

[00:39:00] Maybe put it somewhere. I wouldn't disregard them completely because you can use job boards in another way, which I mentioned earlier, how you. You go through them and you can see a company's recruiting. You can give that company a call instead of applying necessarily straight through that that post.

And that's where you can basically find out who's looking for what at that time. And so that's where the purpose serves. But if you're going to apply to a lot of jobs and you want to get a job as quick as possible, which is what everyone wants to do, You want to move away from job boards because they're so competitive and they're so densely packed that you just can't stand out which is very difficult to stand out from them because you've, you're being, you're competing against people at all different levels.

So the best way to stand out is to not a hundred percent avoid job boards, but you want to move away from them. If you want to stand out, you want to do other things like network, connect to other people. That's the best way to stand [00:40:00] out, because you instantly build a connection, whereas a job board can't do that.

Okay,

Stephen Drew: I agree. I think it makes sense. The job board and what I would say, the further you get in your career, because you guys are slightly younger than me, slightly younger than me ten years, more maybe another year

Will Ridgway: recently.

Stephen Drew: Oh yeah, my birthday the other day, but yeah, a little bit, but I think the further you go in your career.

The more difficult it gets for a job board. So sometimes you might find that Rolands Advertising is better for you. And then, if it's an architectural company, I would apply for it. And if you know the name of it, then reach out. If it's a recruiter, then reach out, have a conversation with them. So I got a job.

In 2009, because job, it was the same thing like now. It was basically the the let me get you out of the way. Get out of the way. So I'm on there. So it was the global crisis. And I went, you guys know the story and I'll keep it short. Yeah, I went through a thousand [00:41:00] companies. And then when I wanted to move from architecture to architecture recruitment, I wanted to apply to Bespoke Careers and a few others because they were very particular architectural recruitment company.

And I was impressed with their work and they're a good company and I wanted to apply for them. Okay. So that was me doing a very tailored approach and I wore a very custom CV and I ran them up and I followed up and I was quite doggedly persistent about it. And that's how I moved to that. But McDonald and company it was the internal recruiter at the time who was looking to, for someone to join the architectural department and they approached me with the idea and I was interested in the company and I learned more about them from that point.

So I think between us, we've what's good about this is that we're so you two, you've job boards. I never. I got a job from a job board and that's the point, right? There's [00:42:00] so many different ways to get roles and you can't rely on one particular method. And I think the further you go, if you're building up a new career over time, you're building your own brand, you're building your own reputation, and it's the same way if you own a company.

It's the same if you are someone, you're just like me and you have your own personal brand, you have your own personal brand, you have a company brand, and the more and more you develop your reputation, your experience, your contacts, your network, it's the same thing if you own a company, you're going to build up that network, you're going to get more clients, and you're going to get great jobs to work on, and then you're going to attract more staff, and then if you invest in a website, you invest in all this stuff.

Yeah. Then people are going to see what you're about. They're going to be interested in applying and you're going to get quality people. And the same thing as you have to start an industry from somewhere. Oh, Will's toilet's going again. And you have to start from somewhere and you have to [00:43:00] build up your reputation.

And over time. You hopefully, you build up a good reputation based upon good experiences, you develop connections, and then suddenly, I guess the point is you're not relying on stuff like job boards so much anymore, and therefore their value goes down. And yeah, to answer, to, Yeah, so to answer because what was the title it was like, what did I call it?

I was like, how job boards are changing, how you should adapt. I think that there are more job boards, less use, less, maybe they have less use right now. Still you can look at them as a tool. Remember, they are a tool to, Get someone's attention or something, but if you develop your own personal brands, if you work on your CV portfolio and you make connections by networking, you make connections by going to events, ooh, and all that stuff is going to build up your own personal network and stuff like, then you'll have a more robust LinkedIn, you'll have a more robust portfolio.

[00:44:00] So that's how I feel about it. Do you think guys, we should have, I'm got. The beer off my bonnet. What's it called? The bee in my bonnet? What's that? Yeah, the bee's out of my bonnet now. I feel like I got that stuff off my chest. Will or Jack, do you have any last thoughts or questions to summarize?

Keep this nice and short and sweet.

Jack Moran: Give it 30 years, I bet your boss will be gone.

Stephen Drew: All right,

Jack Moran: I wish I could, isn't there a website where you can set up a reminder and then As recruiters though, you've got to notice just how digital and online everything is becoming and it's almost like the foundations of how you get a job have shifted over the past 20 years.

To correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not, I'm, I wasn't, looking for jobs 20 years ago, but like I said at the start Stephen, why weren't you? Lazy. I was six years old. Lazy. Yeah. My dad would probably agree with you actually. Oh no. Sorry, it was a light joke. Oh [00:45:00] no. So like you said, back in the 90s, we were looking at papers for jobs and then you fast forward and now you're looking at computers.

I just think if you fast forward another 20, 30 years, I think there's going to be something else. I think the whole idea of trudging through job boards and just doing a sense of clicking and applies when you're not really paying attention to what's going on. You just, the idea of you need money and you'll do whatever for now.

And as we've seen in architecture and our, our department, everything is becoming so much more visual, so much more online, so much more engaging over, online. And the very way that we look for people has changed, the very way that we look for jobs is changing. So I don't know what, I don't know where the feeling is actually coming from, but you give it a few years and I reckon it'll If not wrong, I reckon, it's going to change.

Stephen Drew: Interesting. Do you know what I forgot to mention? I actually bought a job board architecture. co. uk many years ago and it wasn't that successful. Oh, I forgot that gem until the end. Oh yeah, I used to own one.

Will Ridgway: That's why you're so resentful of it. [00:46:00]

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and actually on the Architectural Social, we have this area for posting jobs.

So there's definitely a place for it. And it's a bit like what we talked about with job boards. Yeah. So you're always going to need one, how much you need them. Over time, it's questionable. And also, as a personal thing, if you can be someone that's not reliant on job boards, then that's a nice position to be in.

And so that's the way I put it. You're always going to get a job board, maybe the architectural social job board. That'll be an interesting one. They'll be like, Steve, did you not see this video when you talked about job boards? And I'll be like, guys, it's a tool for everyone to use. But the point is, if you develop your own personal brand, whether it's a company or a practice, that's better.

Okay. So I think we're we're all losing the will to live life. We're going down in numbers. It must've been something you said, Will. What did you, how did you offend everyone? I don't know. Maybe a few people

Jack Moran: from that read or CV

Stephen Drew: library. We're going to [00:47:00] get some bad reviews after this now, boys, I tell you.

Do you know what we're saying is still use job boards, but we were just painting the reality and you can't rely on these things. And the more you invest in yourself, the better, the more you use these tools, the better. Will will William. Okay. We need a segment for this. I need a jingle.

So I'm going to do a jingle for next week, but I'm going to do a little William's words of wisdom. Let's go. Let's tell us what you think to close the show.

Will Ridgway: If it's bad advice, I'm going to press the horn. There you go, that was it, did you hear it? Use job boards, but don't rely on them.

Stephen Drew: Oh, I like it, no horn.

Okay, cool. Alright, okay. Unless there's any other questions, I think we're good. Yep, we're good. All right, I've enjoyed this. Will Ridgway at Macdonald and Company, Jack Moran at Macdonald and Company, the fantastic architecture team. I'm Stephen Drew, Head of Architecture at Macdonald and Company, and we can all be found [00:48:00] on the Architectural Social.

Join the community. That's

Jack Moran: www. com, architecturalsocial. com.

Stephen Drew: Yes, exactly. See, that's why you're so indispensable to me, Jack. I need people like you around. Don't go anywhere. Do not go on job boards. I'm going to keep an eye on the job boards. That's what I was on the phone to, mate. Oh, okay, cool. All right.

Should we go? I'll end the podcast. Until next week. See you next week. Oh, we've got to think of a topic. What are we going to do?

Will Ridgway: We'll think about it.

Stephen Drew: We'll brainstorm in our next meeting. All right. All right. Bye, everyone. Take care, everyone. Bye bye. I miss you already. Bye.