Are Developers the New Architects? Simon Vernon Harcourt’s Journey
Simon Vernon
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[00:00:00]
Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. We are here back on the Architecture Social show 'cause we're going countrywide today. Often I get asked Steve, can we get on the show developers, house builders, the people that are making. All these cool buildings across the country, but also we wanna talk about the design. So I'm lucky today 'cause we're gonna tick at least two of those boxes and potentially more.
'cause it's not just about the feature, it's embracing the fast the past with what we do with the feature as well. So on that note, I've got a design director who works for a developer who's doing beautiful projects across the country and.
Meet Simon Verden Har Court
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Stephen Drew: I have with me Simon Verden Har Court, who is the design director at [00:01:00] Citi and Country.
Simon, welcome to the show and hopefully I got all that right 'cause I didn't before we went live, but how are you? Are you okay?
Simon Vernon: Yeah. No. Yeah. Nice. Steven, thanks for inviting me on this. It's really good to talk about. and all the things that you can do and places you can transform. You know it.
Stephen Drew: Oh, well I'm happy you're here. So we it, we will talk about what you're currently doing, but maybe we can go a little bit in the past.
Simon's Journey into Architecture
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Stephen Drew: So you are a qualified Architect? I did. I did confess that I'm not qualified. So a RB. Don't sue me, I'm a part two. But, um, how, why did you want to study Architecture and what was that journey like at the start then Simon.
Simon Vernon: I kind of, um, um, like I'm not particularly good at maths or science or chemistry or English or history or things like that, but I can draw a bit and I can understand the basics of it. And I did, I didn't do A levels, I did a B Tech course and then I went to, [00:02:00] um. Portsmouth University and studied Architecture there.
I got a, I got a, one of my sister's friend's, dad was a Architect, and I spent the summer making cups of tea and printing drawings on a di line printer. And it kind of just went on from there, really. But I just, I've always liked buildings. I lived, I lived, um, in a village and as a kid I used to cycle around and look at all the nice buildings and stuff.
So yeah, it's kind of in my, um, soul, I think.
Stephen Drew: Fair play. And so city and country is a, is a developer. There's all this cool stuff. But before you joined that, did you work in a more traditional quote unquote Architecture practice then Simon?
Simon Vernon: Yeah, and as I've worked in kind of little local practices doing extensions to thatch cottages and things like that, and then I. Moved to London and I was lucky enough to get a job at Branson Coates Architecture. So I was the Architect on the Jeffery Museum in London and some other, um, cool things that they were doing.
But I moved to Shepherd Robson, which [00:03:00] was very well organized Architectural practice. And I moved out of London to Cambridge and worked for a company called Capital Griffith Architecture, and did some stuff for the National Trust, the headquarters building in Berry and. Some very, um, high quality homes in the Norfolk coast and I was at the same time as that, one of my clients was city and country.
Um, and that's how I met them.
Stephen Drew: Wow. Okay, so you met them, you ended up joining them.
Transition to Developer Role
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Stephen Drew: What was that transition like at the start? Was it very different going from design Architect to still doing design, but all the other stuff in the, in the, in a developer as well?
Simon Vernon: It was, it was scary. It was the scariest decision I made in my career because. You go to Architecture school and you think I need to work in an architect's practice and design buildings. And I got offered the job by the, um, the brothers who run the business and I said, [00:04:00] no. And then I said no again. And then the third time I said yes.
And actually it is the, it's the best decision I made. It's really interesting doing it on the other side as an Architect. People come to you and say, I've got this site, I want you to do this for me. But as a developer, you're actually looking for the sites and you're thinking what can be done
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Simon Vernon: And sometimes we do stuff in-house with our, with.
Um, I've got some architects in my team who work for me, and sometimes we use architects. I work with some of my Architectural heroes, so. We're working with Phil and Greg Bradley at the moment. We work with Richard McCormack. We've used Squires in London. We've done, we've done, and even, um, Robert, Adam, we've done some stuff with.
So, you know, I've got to meet some really interesting, um, um, you know, um, king posts of the Architectural world. It's been great,
Stephen Drew: There you go. And you're the client effectively now, isn't it? So how do you, um, if we are gonna talk all about the cool projects you do, but I get, do get a [00:05:00] lot of questions about this so. Sometimes I think the temptations for architects is, I wanna work for a developer. That's where I want to be. I don't wanna do this anymore.
Do you think, Simon, that the role suit some people really well? And I know you enjoy it now, but I, is it, is it grass is always greener? Is it very tricky? Is it not what everyone think is the reality difference sometimes? Do you have any insights in that area for people?
Simon Vernon: No, they are different. I mean, working for a developer, some things are easier because as a developer, you've got a commercial arm to it, you've got a build arm to it, you've got a sales team there. So actually you are designing stuff. Um, and you can ask someone, how much does it cost to build like this, or how much does it cost to build it like that?
And you can get feedback from the sales team. So it's, it's a real, um, kind of team bonding experience as a, but you're probably only working on, I don't know, two or three big projects a year. In an [00:06:00] architect's practice, you'll probably, you might be working on, I dunno, eight or nine different products a year, depending on what stage they're at.
And you're kind of dipping in and outta them a bit more. So I think it's, it's, as a developer, you know, design is a smaller part of it overall because there's a lot more other things you need to sort out in terms of budgets and programs and reports and things. Um, but. As the developer, you're at the cutting edge of it and sometimes you're the client.
Sometimes, um, you're designing it yourself and you get to see the whole transformation from shall I buyer site to actually people moving in and loving it. So it is, they're both good. I wouldn't, you know, I think people should try working for developer for a bit and see if it suits.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I imagine you see a, you learned a lot of lessons from it as well. Um, but maybe I should, I'm probably doing the audience of disservice because we wanna visualize all the cool stuff that you do, Simon.
City and Country Projects Overview
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Stephen Drew: So if you'll endeavor me, I'm gonna bring up the, uh, the [00:07:00] website now. Sorry, I've gotta, gotta get it ready.
I'm, you know, I'm still that part two inside of me. I should have had it ready at the start, but here's the website. Of city and country. Do you wanna explain in a wider sense the types of buildings that you work on, then Simon, and the projects that you are up to maybe at the moment, or ones that are really precious to you?
Simon Vernon: Yeah, so we used to be just, just conversion really. So we'd buy, um, uh, you know, Victoria Lunatic asylum or a former um. General hospital or we, we brought, uh, arts and crafts, tuberculosis, sanatorium in the south downs and convert those into really nice apartments. Within the grounds of those houses or buildings.
There'd often be some enabling development, which is new build that essentially funds the conversion 'cause the conversion won't stack up on its own. Then probably the last five or six years we've started to do some new build [00:08:00] housing as well as doing the conversion. Um, but we tackle the new build housing in the same way as we, we do the conversion, which is just to look really hard at what you've got and look at the history, look at old plans, just kind of immerse yourself in it and try and find, uh, um, it's a bit corny, but try and find a soul in whatever you are looking at and try and enhance it and make something stronger and more powerful and more beautiful.
That's, that's really what we're trying to do.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough. And, and forgive me, hopefully I got this right, but there was a project in particular. That is that, that you enjoy and, and you mentioned that you casually slipped in there, that you've been, uh, refurbishing or renovating, uh, Victorian lunatic asylum. I hope, hopefully I got that right, because that does sound very interesting, but like Bat Batman, Archer Island.
But is that the 1840 building here? Is that right
Simon Vernon: Yeah, it is. So it was the former, um, [00:09:00] Surrey County Asylum, um, for lunatics. I'm sure you wouldn't use those words anymore,
Stephen Drew: Yeah, don't worry, you're, you're safe here. 'cause I, I will, I'm a self-professed lunatic, but carry on. It's okay.
Simon Vernon: it was, it was built in 1840, so it was built right at the start of the Victorian period. Um, the Architect I like, I never remember dates, so I've got a few numbers written down so I can, I can get them right. But it was, it was, the Architect was a chap called Edward LaPage and he was the county Architect and he'd, um, he'd designed, I think he designed Westminster Bridge.
Um, and he entered competitions for houses of Parliament, which he didn't win, but he was a good kind of jobing Victorian Architect. And, um. At that time, you've kind of got the Houses of Parliament was just starting to be built, um, rollout. Albert Hall was going up, they were building the Palm House at q.
So, you know, this is a really exciting period for Architecture in London. And, [00:10:00] um, the asylum is a very fine building that picks up on kind of tutored details and vernacular Architecture and big stone mullions and metal windows and things like that. So it's a, it's a. You know, they, they knew how to build things in the Victoria and that's it on the screen now.
Um, they knew how to build things then and um, the architect's drawings probably would be fairly limited, but you just trust the stone masons and the brick layers to, and the joiners to build something really beautiful. And that's what I love about doing the conversion projects is it's polishing up and repairing, you know, slightly tatty and rather sad buildings and turning them into something rather wonderful.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Wow. I mean, it does look incredibly impressive. So maybe one or two very naive questions for me.
Challenges and Rewards of Conversion Projects
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Stephen Drew: So how long does it take? So did you, because you, did you go and see it on site? Like you see and you go, my gosh guys, this is gonna be a lot of work, but uh, maybe we can do something. So you go from that stage [00:11:00] to getting it done.
How long does that take then, Simon?
Simon Vernon: Well, first of all, it took about two or three years to buy it because it was part of a much wider consortium where the, the patients from the hospital be moved to a new hospital and that was being paid for by some new development. So a whole load of things had to fall into place for us to get the site.
And then when we got the site, it had a outline consent, but it knocked down some of the nicest parts of the building. It knocked down. Some of the engineering buildings and the um, nurses common rooms and kitchens and things, which actually were, could have been really interesting. So we had some really good discussions with the local authority conservation officer on plan.
They were really good actually, and they allowed us to keep a lot more of the buildings and it's created some great kind of double height spaces with Victorian arm columns and kind of twiddly trusses and things like that. So, um. In terms of, you asked me how long does it take? It takes [00:12:00] a very long time because there's about more than 300 apartments in it and everyone is unique.
So if you're doing new build, it's easy 'cause you design, you know, 10 apartments, you just stack them on top of each other. But conversion, you might have a nice staircase or a far place or a, or a nice bolted ceiling and you are also thinking where the nice views are and where's the sun setting and rising and things.
And so you end up. Each, each one is bespoke. So we spend ages. Um, Mr. Chap works with me, Steve, and there's interior designer Georgina, and we just spend ages walking around, getting covered in cobwebs and sketching on tracing paper and pencil and things, and kind of slowly getting the layouts doing into something that that can work.
And that's just the planning stage. But you've then got the. We then gotta get planning permission, but that was quite straightforward here. And then you've got the working drawings and then the most difficult bit actually is building it at the end of the day because of how complicated.
Stephen Drew: My gosh. And are you doing this in parallel with [00:13:00] other projects then? Two or three or
Simon Vernon: Yeah, no, we've done, we did, um, we've, we had to start in Edinburgh, which was, um, Donaldson's, which was a former school for the deaf when we turned that into a hundred apartments. And that looks like a kind of, if you ask a child to draw a castle with lots of torts and twiddly bits, it looks just like that.
We've, we've been doing a former tobacco factory and Bristol, um. Factory number one, which was a Wills tobacco factory. And we've actually, we've tried to celebrate the, kind of the cigarette history that was there. So we, we got a, we employed a local graffiti artist to, to kind of do graffiti of tobacco leaves and take inspiration from, um, cigarette cars you used to get of main Ebola hats and umbrellas and, um, putting, put, put that on the stairs.
So it's one of the really fun things about. I think being a developer, you can kind of pull in all these different people and actually you can make it, make it more creative. And you know, we got a local brewery to move in there and [00:14:00] one of other sites in Bristol, they set up a Michelin Star restaurant in there.
And um, so, you know, we just try and, um, um, um, we wanna try and create places people want to be, want to live, whether you can, whether you're actually buying a flat there or not, because we mainly do residential. We do do some commercial. But actually creating places that people want to live in, but also places people want to visit.
'cause they're that, you know, they're that nice, they're that lovely. So, yeah, no, it's um, it's the, so I'm sure there's more then there's. There's a sanatorium in the South Downs, which was built to, for tuberculosis, and it was designed by the Architect, Charles Holden, um, who went on to do lots of tube stations in London.
And the landscape Architect was, um, Gertrude. So again, it was all, it's all, um, pretty special. So on that one, we got to look through the old plans working with LUC landscape architects, go through the old plans and recreate her lost gardens. Um, and. [00:15:00] Knocked down, we knocked down about 200,000 square foot of ugly modern hospital buildings and restored the buildings back to where they were and got consent for some new houses in the grounds that paid for all.
So, um, it's, I just, I just love, um, immersing myself in the history and, you know, I like a challenge and. Conversion is a real challenge and it's kind of, it's not for the fantastic, it's for someone who wants to roll up their sleeves and, and, um, look through drawers of old plans and find out where the bread proofing room was or where the nurse's common room was or something like that, and try and put that back.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. No, it's, uh, it sounds like they, they're like these beautiful problems and challenges and I'd love to go into that in a little bit more detail.
Finding and Procuring Unique Sites
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Stephen Drew: But before we do that, how do you even find these then Simon is there, do you have a team that goes out and scours the country for these beautiful opportunities?
Um, is it a combination of, you might as well have a few ideas, like how do you procure these opportunities? First of all.
Simon Vernon: So there's [00:16:00] not many developers who want to actually tackle a huge Victorian building, and so the market is relatively small. So most of the, you know, there's, there are. Like when you're buying a house, there's people who are selling commercial property and they know that we are the company to go for.
It's something like that. So we get approached a lot. Um, some of the deals take a long time to come to fruition, and some of them are quite quick. We've got, we've got a really good. Relationship with Historic England, and there's some great people I work with there who, uh, who, um, um, you know, who, who we can have a really good dialogue with.
So it's just, it's like buying a house but on a much, much bigger scale with different agents and, um, it's, it's, it's, it's relatively straightforward.
Stephen Drew: Is it, is it tough sometimes that you might have a beautiful building, but it because you, it has to stack up as a business? It has to be work. What work for the people inhabiting it as well at the end? Is it, do you find sometimes Simon and you're tone of like, oh, I'd love to do this one, but [00:17:00] it just probably, it could be a total nightmare or it might not stack up financially.
Do you have those conversations in-house as well?
Simon Vernon: Yeah, conversion is difficult 'cause it is. It is much, much more expensive than building you.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Simon Vernon: there's much more risk 'cause you don't quite know what you're gonna find. Or you might find dry rot everywhere. Or you might, um, find bits of steel that are, you know, about to fall down and things like that. So there's much bigger risks in it, and you need reasonably good sales values to make it, make it stack up.
So that's why, you know, London has good values. The stuff we're doing in Bath and Bristol has good values. And when we did stuff in Edinburgh, but we have looked at stuff further afield, but it is more difficult. Um, so there are some sites where there's an absolutely beautiful building, but actually the restoration costs are more than the sales values would be.
So those are the ones that are the biggest challenge and um, there's not always an answer to them. So there are, so yeah, it's, um, it's challenging and you have to. [00:18:00] Um, go into it with your eyes open and know what the risks are and have, have, um, contingency sums and all the, all kind of boring stuff that the commercial team deal with at work.
And I get to do the fun stuff of coming up with the ideas and um, which is the bit I really like doing.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Well it's, it's good to, it's important to visualize the, the process and, and in terms of the design stuff.
Technology and Architecture
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Stephen Drew: So have you found then, Simon, over the years, because I remember, so when I was studying in Archite. It was cad. Now we have Revit and you see all these different technologies like, uh, topical surveys and stuff right.
For, um, dealing with old buildings. Do you think like the increase in technology and tools has helped at all do these buildings or is it, is it always been a case of, do you know what, where's a will as a way we'll do it anyways, you know?
Simon Vernon: I think for conversion, it doesn't make as much difference because actually you are, it's there already, so you're walking it and you can see it in 3D and quite often we're actually, um, [00:19:00] spraying out on the floor where the ward's are gonna be. So actually we can walk it and imagine it. So. And I still, I was gonna say I still use tracing paper, but actually I don't, I now use, um, an app on my laptop that I can flip over, and so I can draw, you know, on PDFs and scale them off and things like that.
So technology does make things a bit easier, but actually you, you just need, um, um, to try and picture things in your mind. And a lot of it for me is about proportions and scale. So on the elevations, but also, you know, if you're doing a building a. It might sound obvious, but if you're designing a three bedroom flat and they're all double bedrooms, you need to make sure there's enough safer space for six people to sit and watch telly and the table that's big enough.
And that the number of architects who, um, like Architecture school great. 'cause you, you do all these weird and wonderful wacky things, but actually they don't tell you how big a table and chairs should be and, um, how big a double bed is and things like that. And actually it's [00:20:00] the, a lot of it is just. Imagining, like what I try and imagine on each flat is what I'm living there. You know, where am I gonna put the furniture and how's it gonna work, and where's the Hoover going? And, and it's just being really kind of just trying to imagine living there and, and, but you need to spend a lot of time walking around on site as well and looking at the views and the windows and things.
So it's, it's, it is good. It's very, um. It's interactive. 'cause I'm, you know, I'm talking to the salespeople, I'm talking to interior designers, talking to the technical team about where so pipe's gonna go. It's much more complicated now in terms of fire and sprinklers and things, which is, you know, all really positive.
There's much more focus on that now. So there's a huge. Huge challenge, pulling it all together. But I love, you know, I love getting everyone around the table. Everyone's got all their own ideas and actually everyone feeds in and you end up with something much, much richer. And that's, that's like architects I think are really good. I think they'd be, most architects be really good in any business 'cause they're good at [00:21:00] pulling people together and, you know, talking and getting things done and, and kind of project management and stuff. So it's, uh. It's a fun job, but it's also what I like best is something to show for. At the end of the day, I couldn't do a job where, you know, you're just moving numbers around on a spreadsheet or, I mean, what would you have to show your kids when you retire?
I don't know. So actually doing, being involved in stuff where you are creating stuff and, you know, people can live and love and stuff, it's, you know, it's great.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Now FIII, I think that is one of the beauties of Architecture that you can go walk through it, like you say, go to the site and say that you evolved in there. Um, I have one more question about. Hack per se. And there is a lot of price coverage about AI at the moment. People are talking about it, people are worrying about can they take, uh, my job and this and that.
Now, with what you are saying and the buildings, I don't foresee that ever happening, Simon, [00:22:00] that AI could do what you do. But do you have like a, a thoughts and feelings about, um. The way the, the industry's going with all this stuff, do you think it will affect what you do on a day-to-day basis or Absolutely not at all.
Simon Vernon: I think AI is like, you know, um. All these AI assistant, they're great at coming up with a company logo or something like that, but I think for, and they'll probably end up being good at designing like a simple house plan or something like that. But, but I think having that spark or that new idea or, um. You know, I don't think they're gonna get there, but what I'm really hoping is I'll start doing some of the more tedious bits of it. So actually they'll start doing the electrical layouts for you and working out where the sprinkler pipes need to go. And you know, because, because some of it is just following rules and, and I think AI is good at understanding rules or algorithms and turning them into something, but I think the. [00:23:00] creative aspect. I mean, AI is not gonna go and buy a site and build it and sell it, you know? It's, it's so, so it is gonna, you know, I think it will help. But if I was thinking about, I mean, my daughter's gonna go off and study Architecture next year and I'd haven't pushed her down that way at all. But I, you know, I'm not saying to her, don't do it 'cause AI's gonna have your job.
You know, I think it's, it's, it's still an amazing job and I think AI is gonna be good for it and help.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I, I feel like that too. Um, and maybe on that point, uh, it is really interesting. So your daughter's going into it. You didn't push her into it, so that's cool as well, isn't it? I mean, what do you, uh, there's a few things I wanna unpack. So wanna unpack what, like I, what's like to work on your team, but on this subject.
Now we are thinking about your daughter studying Architecture now in 2025. It is. It's completely different. It's completely different to when I did it. It's completely different to when you did it.
Advice for Aspiring Architects
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Stephen Drew: Do you have like any advice for people who are studying Architecture now or [00:24:00] maybe you would do things a bit differently or do you, do you have any insights on them?
Simon Vernon: I think it's been really interesting 'cause we've, 'cause I've gone on quite a few open days with my daughter and actually lots of the schools of Architecture are very different and I think. I think like I'm more of, there are some more creative scores of Architecture and there's some more technical scores of Architecture and the industry needs both.
So, um, you just need to go wherever, you know, whichever. If you're really good at, you know, art and product design and you know, those are your strong points, then go to one of the more creative ones. Actually, if. Science and maths. And then, you know, there's places like Bath and other places which are more, more technical universities.
So I think, I think, um, just to take your time on it, visit lots of universities, you know, get lots of research, talk to lots of people, but it is generally it's a really good career. And the rest, some really interesting younger people coming up through it. We've got, we have people who come and do [00:25:00] work experience in the summer and stuff, and it's just, you know, they come up with.
Amazing ideas, and they're always brilliant at the, um, technol technology side of it. I remember when I first qualified, I could, CAD was pretty basic then, but I managed to create a chili pepper shaped lift, lift shaft or something for Branson coats, which is complete nuts, but it was, I've no idea how to do anything like that now, but actually the, the younger generation know how to do all of that kind of stuff.
So, um, I, I, you know, just go for it. Visit lots of schools of Architecture, talk to people and go for it.
Stephen Drew: Okay. It's good advice. Now, fast forward in a few years, your daughter will graduate, and for me the, when you're a part one, it's like, Ugh, I've graduated, I've got my grades coming up. You're doing the end of the exhibition, and then it's like, oh, okay. Now I've gotta get a job. What the lumen heck do I do?
Kind of thing, you know? So I kind of worked it out as I go. I made a few mistakes. Now a lot of the content we do in the Architecture socialists [00:26:00] about getting that first job in the industry or getting your second referred job. Do you have, um, do you have any advice? And you also an employer, aren't you?
And you manage the design team. So maybe you could give a bit of advice on that, but also maybe. How do people grab your attention, you know, to work on your team or get that work experience, you know?
Simon Vernon: I think it's, I think it's getting work experience. Even if, even if you're not getting paid, but getting work experience, you know, when you are doing your A levels or you know, before you go to university and in the summer holidays, try and get some work experience. 'cause when you look at people's cvs, if they've.
I mean, it's great to work in a coffee shop or a bar or, or get the kind of experience, but actually if they've, if they've done their degree and they've never worked in an Architect practice, I'd be more nervous than actually if I know who someone has already spent a few summers at different practices and they know, they know what they're letting themselves in for.
So I think. You know, start, start early, even if you are just, you know, um, coloring in on Photoshop or, um, [00:27:00] making, making tea or whatever you're doing, it's all really good experience just being in that environment. I think it's probably more difficult now with homeworking.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah.
Simon Vernon: When I qualified, then, you know, everyone was, it was all on drawing board.
That's how hold am. It was all on drawing boards when I, when I started, so everybody could see what everybody was doing. And I think things are, with homeworking and people on computers, it is more difficult. But I know a lot of practices, you know, they don't, they, they don't allow homeworking or they limit it because they like to, you know, have that kinda studio atmosphere in a practice.
Um.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm a small business owner and, and I think for experienced professionals it's less of an issue, the hybrid working. But I do agree, Simon. I think of a challenge. How do you get someone that's new to an industry to learn really quick? And for me, it was being thrown in or mirroring you.
Simon, I sit next to you to listen to you on calls, listen to what you do. And I think that's so valuable and you just. Don't get that, um, online. And the other thing I always [00:28:00] advise people to do is if they can, is to go for an interview in person. Because if you interviewing online, yes, it might be convenient, but it goes both ways.
I mean, I could come to your, uh, office and. Have a, you know, see you get a beauty, get all excited or work out what I wanna do. And I, but if I don't go to another Architecture practice or you take a job online, you might go there and it might not be right for you, Simon, isn't it? So, I mean, do you have any thoughts on, on, on, on my thoughts on that?
Simon Vernon: yeah. No, and it is, I mean, from the other side it is difficult interviewing people because actually you only, you have their CV and then you might talk to 'em for half an hour, an hour, and then you have to make a decision. You might do a second interview. So the more the prospective candidates to do can do to help, um, give.
If the person is interviewing them confidence, then the easier it will be. So I think it's having, having the track record, bringing some really good pictures of what they've done. You know, they might, they might have [00:29:00] designed, um, things completely different at university from the kind of things that practice does, but that doesn't matter.
It's just you are interested in. People's approach and talking through how they've thought, through what they've designed and having a kind of logical step-by-step process and collaborating with people. There's lots of, there's lots of things that make people stand, stand out. And also you're looking at, for people who actually you think, you know, in a few years time, I'd be quite happy if they go meet to client and, you know, discuss a brief and things like that.
So, um, um, yeah.
Stephen Drew: No, it makes complete sense, Simon. And maybe, uh, I've got one or two more things I want to unpack 'cause um, I think that's super valuable advice. The other bit I'm conscious of, you mentioned earlier you love working with all these good companies, um, Architecture practices, you, you talked about Field and Clagg Bradley and a few other things.
So, uh, what's interesting, so before you were the Architect who would work with a developer like yourself, but now the roles have changed and they, um, and. Uh, [00:30:00] do you have any advice for maybe the Architect still in the industry now you've got this other side. Are there some, maybe mistakes that architects make or are there some examples of where you think, ah, that was great, or, this is what I do?
'cause you've, you've seen the other side is what I'm trying to say.
Working with Developers
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Stephen Drew: So, for the person that's still within an Architecture practice, what's your advice on how to best work with a developer?
Simon Vernon: I think you just have to be really confident in what you're doing. And like sometimes it is not gonna work, isn't there Not the right Architect for a job, but it's not because. They're a bad Architect. It's just 'cause the, the synergy's not there. So I think, I think it's the same when you're going for an interview, you just have to be confident and you have to be yourself.
The practice has to be confident and has to be itself and, and done something, you know, of whatever the brief is to have thought quite carefully about the brief and how to respond to it and have some ideas, [00:31:00] and have lots of ideas and just, just, just kinda sell it. And also. Talk about the practice and how you manage it, like the kind of the, the less exciting stuff, but how the practice is run.
How they make sure they're gonna create a program and get the project done on time. And, um, that's that and, and how they're gonna present it and produce nice 3D drawings. But there are some amazing architects out there. I mean, the stuff field and Clag are doing for us in bath, you know, it's amazing. It's, it's, um, they're doing something really different.
Bath is full of. Dumbed down Georgian Architecture and it's become very staid and they, we are on the edge of bath in a Victorian bit and they've completely latched onto the Victorian side and doing something radically different. And it's really exciting to see, um, Keith Bradley and all his team just coming up with these ideas and it's aspiring working with really good Architect.
Like that. And, um, it is the same when we use Richard [00:32:00] Murphy and Edinburgh. You know, he, they do some crazy wacky stuff, but actually at the heart of it, they're a well, well organized practice who, uh, technically know how to deliver things. So it is that kind of mixture of creativity and practicality and organization that's, that's what makes a good Architect for me.
Stephen Drew: Oh, that, that's really good to know. The last question I had for me was more just the sentiment at the moment.
Current Industry Sentiments
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Stephen Drew: So the time we're recording this is, is it's April, 2025. Um, how do you feel about what the current industry at the moment and the way we are going into the future, do you feel positive right now about the sector and what's happening?
Or do you have potentially some concerns about. So what you're seeing at the moment is all good. So feeling
Simon Vernon: Yeah, I think, I think labor are making, I mean, because we're, we mainly do housing, labor are making some really good sounds in terms of, you know, we need to build more. And the NIMBYs of one completely up to now, and actually labor have just said, look, if everyone's a [00:33:00] NIMBY, then you're never gonna build houses.
And actually, um, if, if the government only releases a ti amount of land at a time. Then the person who buys that land is gonna be a developer who can pay the most for it, build the cheapest, and squeeze as many houses on there as possible. And, and they're not, there won't be any architects working for that developer.
Probably it'd be a kind of a, a corporate machine. And that's, to me, that's not Architecture, but probably the, the thing that we see the most. Landscape is not designed by architects. It's like awful. I've gone off the question slightly, but it's, um, developments of homes and. By the Labor Party saying, no, we need more homes.
And actually the local authorities need to deliver more homes. Then the local, then more land is gonna have to be released, which should give more opportunities for small and medium sized developers to actually buy [00:34:00] plots and be different from the big developers by doing something really creative. So housing is, is quite often frowned on.
By architects, and most housing is not designed by architects, but housing is a really interesting thing to be involved in because it's where people spend, you know, a lot of their life living in a home and creating homes that are beautiful and you know, there's a place to sit. And have a coffee in the sun.
And the view you're looking at across the street is a house with nice detail, whether it's really modern or whether it's really traditional, but it's, it's something that's gonna weather well and look more beautiful, then that's a really important thing. So I'm, I'm really optimistic from that point of view that if labor can deliver these extra homes, extra land that can be allocated for housing, that's gonna free things up and.
Give great opportunities for small and medium sized developers and architects. And [00:35:00] architects who work for them to do something really interesting and exciting and try and take, take back these awful houses from these big developers and create something beautiful. And some of them might be, um, um. You know, very highbrow Architecture and very modern, but actually some of it also might be really traditional, but really well done and have nice scale and nice proportions.
And architects have been magpies. You know, the, the Georgians told stuff from the Greeks and the Romans, the Victorian style stuff from Tudor signs from medieval times. There's not, there's nothing wrong from looking back at the past and using that today. So, um, I think, I think, I think. Housing, get involved in housing.
'cause I think the prospects there are really exciting.
Stephen Drew: Oh, well that's good to hear. 'cause I think, especially at the moment, some people are quite nervous, nervous about the economic outlook. However, it's quite nice to see, especially. If you are on the forefront of planning housing and there's [00:36:00] a bit of positivity, then that, that, that means a lot. Um, and my, uh, when you were talking about certain housing houses without characteristics, I was in my head giggle.
'cause my dad calls them naughty houses, whereas, you know, take me to the, to the, the. Uh, the asylum. 'cause that definitely didn't look like a naughty house to me. That looked pretty cool. I'd like to live. I lived there.
Closing Remarks and Contact Information
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Stephen Drew: Simon, you've been an absolute pleasure. I always say, before we go, I always like to say them, my guests.
If there's anything that you wanted to ask about me. I know we only spoke a little bit before and I, I went on a bit of a montage about me not doing Architecture. Now how I've done, and I live in London, but is there anything you wanted to ask me at all Simon, before we go?
Simon Vernon: No, I think you, uh, you, you've got a great job 'cause you get to talk to people about Architecture and look at it from dots of different perspectives. So I think you must have a really good, you must have your finger on the pulse on this, so.
Stephen Drew: Well that's, [00:37:00] that's flattering. I used to be the cheeky trap in the office, Simon, that I got along with everyone. But you'd be like, where's Steve? He's gotta do that drawing. We gotta go to site now. So I, that, that, that was me. So, um, it's a good thing I'm not working on your team, however, for people who want to, um, well, we can speak like this.
We get along in this capacity. However, if people want to find out more about the projects. Or they want to, uh, get in touch with you or maybe they like the sound of this and they wanna work on your team. How do they get in touch with you, Simon, to learn more and all that jazz?
Simon Vernon: I think there's going to our website. Um, which is city and country.co uk. And, um, you'll find all our projects on there and, um, there's some contacts you can, um, submit forms with questions and stuff on there too. So, yeah, no, um, be delighted to hear from anyone.
Stephen Drew: Oh, well, thank you so much for making time out of your day to join me. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, [00:38:00] Simon. That was really cool and interesting and good luck to your daughter. Do you know through Architecture and, and tell her when she's looking for that job. Check out all the podcasts.
There's other people like yourself, Simon, who shared all that wisdom. Maybe she'll be like, no, I don't wanna watch the episode with my dad. 'cause I love him at home, but that's enough for me. But there are other people on there as well. Um. I joke, but thank you so much for being on. Stay on the stage for one more minute because I want to say thank you in the audience for tuning in.
Um, I like doing these podcast episode with you. I always learn something myself and what cool way to learn from not only an Architect, but a developer, their client. Right. It helps to get the insight and do checkout all the cool projects that city and country do. I, I said county once, twice before, but they do counties and countries.
It's all good. They're in nationwide and doing all those beautiful projects. I'm gonna end, uh, the broadcast now. Thank you so much for everyone. [00:39:00] Simon. Stay on the stage for one more minute, but for you and the audience, I'll see you later. Take care everyone. Bye-bye.
Simon Vernon: Thank you. Bye.