Are Developers the New Architects? Simon Vernon Harcourt’s Journey

Stephen Drew: Hello everyone.

We are here back on the
Architecture Social show 'cause

we're going countrywide today.

Often I get asked Steve, can we
get on the show developers, house

builders, the people that are making.

All these cool buildings
across the country, but also

we wanna talk about the design.

So I'm lucky today 'cause we're
gonna tick at least two of those

boxes and potentially more.

'cause it's not just about the feature,
it's embracing the fast the past with

what we do with the feature as well.

So on that note, I've got a
design director who works for a

developer who's doing beautiful
projects across the country and.

I have with me Simon Verden
Har Court, who is the design

director at Citi and Country.

Simon, welcome to the show and hopefully
I got all that right 'cause I didn't

before we went live, but how are you?

Are you okay?

Simon Vernon: Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

Nice.

Steven, thanks for inviting me on this.

It's really good to talk about.

and all the things that you can
do and places you can transform.

You know it.

Stephen Drew: Oh, well
I'm happy you're here.

So we it, we will talk about what
you're currently doing, but maybe

we can go a little bit in the past.

So you are a qualified Architect?

I did.

I did confess that I'm not qualified.

So a RB.

Don't sue me, I'm a part two.

But, um, how, why did you want to
study Architecture and what was that

journey like at the start then Simon.

Simon Vernon: I kind of, um, um, like I'm
not particularly good at maths or science

or chemistry or English or history or
things like that, but I can draw a bit

and I can understand the basics of it.

And I did, I didn't do A levels, I did
a B Tech course and then I went to, um.

Portsmouth University and
studied Architecture there.

I got a, I got a, one of my sister's
friend's, dad was a Architect, and I

spent the summer making cups of tea and
printing drawings on a di line printer.

And it kind of just went
on from there, really.

But I just, I've always liked buildings.

I lived, I lived, um, in a village and
as a kid I used to cycle around and look

at all the nice buildings and stuff.

So yeah, it's kind of in
my, um, soul, I think.

Stephen Drew: Fair play.

And so city and country
is a, is a developer.

There's all this cool stuff.

But before you joined that, did you
work in a more traditional quote unquote

Architecture practice then Simon?

Simon Vernon: Yeah, and as I've worked
in kind of little local practices

doing extensions to thatch cottages
and things like that, and then I.

Moved to London and I was lucky enough to
get a job at Branson Coates Architecture.

So I was the Architect on the Jeffery
Museum in London and some other, um,

cool things that they were doing.

But I moved to Shepherd Robson,
which was very well organized

Architectural practice.

And I moved out of London to Cambridge
and worked for a company called Capital

Griffith Architecture, and did some
stuff for the National Trust, the

headquarters building in Berry and.

Some very, um, high quality homes
in the Norfolk coast and I was

at the same time as that, one of
my clients was city and country.

Um, and that's how I met them.

Stephen Drew: Wow.

Okay, so you met them,
you ended up joining them.

What was that transition
like at the start?

Was it very different going from
design Architect to still doing

design, but all the other stuff in
the, in the, in a developer as well?

Simon Vernon: It was, it was scary.

It was the scariest decision
I made in my career because.

You go to Architecture school and you
think I need to work in an architect's

practice and design buildings.

And I got offered the job by
the, um, the brothers who run

the business and I said, no.

And then I said no again.

And then the third time I said yes.

And actually it is the, it's
the best decision I made.

It's really interesting doing it
on the other side as an Architect.

People come to you and say, I've got
this site, I want you to do this for me.

But as a developer, you're
actually looking for the sites and

you're thinking what can be done

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Simon Vernon: And sometimes we
do stuff in-house with our, with.

Um, I've got some architects
in my team who work for me, and

sometimes we use architects.

I work with some of my
Architectural heroes, so.

We're working with Phil and
Greg Bradley at the moment.

We work with Richard McCormack.

We've used Squires in London.

We've done, we've done, and even, um,
Robert, Adam, we've done some stuff with.

So, you know, I've got to meet some
really interesting, um, um, you know, um,

king posts of the Architectural world.

It's been great,

Stephen Drew: There you go.

And you're the client
effectively now, isn't it?

So how do you, um, if we are
gonna talk all about the cool

projects you do, but I get, do get
a lot of questions about this so.

Sometimes I think the
temptations for architects is,

I wanna work for a developer.

That's where I want to be.

I don't wanna do this anymore.

Do you think, Simon, that the
role suit some people really well?

And I know you enjoy it now, but I,
is it, is it grass is always greener?

Is it very tricky?

Is it not what everyone think is
the reality difference sometimes?

Do you have any insights
in that area for people?

Simon Vernon: No, they are different.

I mean, working for a developer,
some things are easier because as a

developer, you've got a commercial
arm to it, you've got a build arm to

it, you've got a sales team there.

So actually you are designing stuff.

Um, and you can ask someone, how much
does it cost to build like this, or how

much does it cost to build it like that?

And you can get feedback
from the sales team.

So it's, it's a real, um, kind of team
bonding experience as a, but you're

probably only working on, I don't
know, two or three big projects a year.

In an architect's practice, you'll
probably, you might be working on, I

dunno, eight or nine different products a
year, depending on what stage they're at.

And you're kind of dipping
in and outta them a bit more.

So I think it's, it's, as a developer,
you know, design is a smaller part

of it overall because there's a
lot more other things you need to

sort out in terms of budgets and
programs and reports and things.

Um, but.

As the developer, you're at
the cutting edge of it and

sometimes you're the client.

Sometimes, um, you're designing it
yourself and you get to see the whole

transformation from shall I buyer site to
actually people moving in and loving it.

So it is, they're both good.

I wouldn't, you know, I think people
should try working for developer

for a bit and see if it suits.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I imagine
you see a, you learned a lot

of lessons from it as well.

Um, but maybe I should, I'm probably
doing the audience of disservice

because we wanna visualize all
the cool stuff that you do, Simon.

So if you'll endeavor me, I'm gonna
bring up the, uh, the website now.

Sorry, I've gotta, gotta get it ready.

I'm, you know, I'm still
that part two inside of me.

I should have had it ready at the
start, but here's the website.

Of city and country.

Do you wanna explain in a wider sense
the types of buildings that you work

on, then Simon, and the projects that
you are up to maybe at the moment, or

ones that are really precious to you?

Simon Vernon: Yeah, so we used to
be just, just conversion really.

So we'd buy, um, uh, you know,
Victoria Lunatic asylum or a former um.

General hospital or we, we brought,
uh, arts and crafts, tuberculosis,

sanatorium in the south downs and convert
those into really nice apartments.

Within the grounds of
those houses or buildings.

There'd often be some enabling
development, which is new build that

essentially funds the conversion 'cause
the conversion won't stack up on its own.

Then probably the last five or six
years we've started to do some new build

housing as well as doing the conversion.

Um, but we tackle the new build housing in
the same way as we, we do the conversion,

which is just to look really hard at
what you've got and look at the history,

look at old plans, just kind of immerse
yourself in it and try and find, uh, um,

it's a bit corny, but try and find a soul
in whatever you are looking at and try

and enhance it and make something stronger
and more powerful and more beautiful.

That's, that's really
what we're trying to do.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough.

And, and forgive me, hopefully
I got this right, but there

was a project in particular.

That is that, that you enjoy and,
and you mentioned that you casually

slipped in there, that you've been,
uh, refurbishing or renovating,

uh, Victorian lunatic asylum.

I hope, hopefully I got that right,
because that does sound very interesting,

but like Bat Batman, Archer Island.

But is that the 1840 building here?

Is that right

Simon Vernon: Yeah, it is.

So it was the former, um, Surrey
County Asylum, um, for lunatics.

I'm sure you wouldn't
use those words anymore,

Stephen Drew: Yeah, don't
worry, you're, you're safe here.

'cause I, I will, I'm a
self-professed lunatic, but carry on.

It's okay.

Simon Vernon: it was, it was built
in 1840, so it was built right at

the start of the Victorian period.

Um, the Architect I like, I never remember
dates, so I've got a few numbers written

down so I can, I can get them right.

But it was, it was, the Architect
was a chap called Edward LaPage

and he was the county Architect and
he'd, um, he'd designed, I think

he designed Westminster Bridge.

Um, and he entered competitions
for houses of Parliament, which

he didn't win, but he was a good
kind of jobing Victorian Architect.

And, um.

At that time, you've kind of got
the Houses of Parliament was just

starting to be built, um, rollout.

Albert Hall was going up, they
were building the Palm House at q.

So, you know, this is a really exciting
period for Architecture in London.

And, um, the asylum is a very fine
building that picks up on kind

of tutored details and vernacular
Architecture and big stone mullions

and metal windows and things like that.

So it's a, it's a.

You know, they, they knew how
to build things in the Victoria

and that's it on the screen now.

Um, they knew how to build things
then and um, the architect's drawings

probably would be fairly limited, but
you just trust the stone masons and

the brick layers to, and the joiners
to build something really beautiful.

And that's what I love about doing the
conversion projects is it's polishing up

and repairing, you know, slightly tatty
and rather sad buildings and turning

them into something rather wonderful.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Wow.

I mean, it does look
incredibly impressive.

So maybe one or two very
naive questions for me.

So how long does it take?

So did you, because you, did
you go and see it on site?

Like you see and you go, my gosh
guys, this is gonna be a lot of work,

but uh, maybe we can do something.

So you go from that
stage to getting it done.

How long does that take then, Simon?

Simon Vernon: Well, first of all, it took
about two or three years to buy it because

it was part of a much wider consortium
where the, the patients from the hospital

be moved to a new hospital and that was
being paid for by some new development.

So a whole load of things had to fall
into place for us to get the site.

And then when we got the site, it had
a outline consent, but it knocked down

some of the nicest parts of the building.

It knocked down.

Some of the engineering buildings and
the um, nurses common rooms and kitchens

and things, which actually were,
could have been really interesting.

So we had some really good
discussions with the local authority

conservation officer on plan.

They were really good actually, and
they allowed us to keep a lot more of

the buildings and it's created some
great kind of double height spaces

with Victorian arm columns and kind of
twiddly trusses and things like that.

So, um.

In terms of, you asked
me how long does it take?

It takes a very long time because
there's about more than 300 apartments

in it and everyone is unique.

So if you're doing new build,
it's easy 'cause you design, you

know, 10 apartments, you just
stack them on top of each other.

But conversion, you might have a nice
staircase or a far place or a, or a nice

bolted ceiling and you are also thinking
where the nice views are and where's

the sun setting and rising and things.

And so you end up.

Each, each one is bespoke.

So we spend ages.

Um, Mr.

Chap works with me, Steve, and there's
interior designer Georgina, and we

just spend ages walking around, getting
covered in cobwebs and sketching on

tracing paper and pencil and things,
and kind of slowly getting the layouts

doing into something that that can work.

And that's just the planning stage.

But you've then got the.

We then gotta get planning permission,
but that was quite straightforward here.

And then you've got the working
drawings and then the most difficult

bit actually is building it at the end
of the day because of how complicated.

Stephen Drew: My gosh.

And are you doing this in
parallel with other projects then?

Two or three or

Simon Vernon: Yeah, no, we've
done, we did, um, we've, we had to

start in Edinburgh, which was, um,
Donaldson's, which was a former

school for the deaf when we turned
that into a hundred apartments.

And that looks like a kind of, if
you ask a child to draw a castle

with lots of torts and twiddly
bits, it looks just like that.

We've, we've been doing a former
tobacco factory and Bristol, um.

Factory number one, which
was a Wills tobacco factory.

And we've actually, we've tried
to celebrate the, kind of the

cigarette history that was there.

So we, we got a, we employed a local
graffiti artist to, to kind of do graffiti

of tobacco leaves and take inspiration
from, um, cigarette cars you used to get

of main Ebola hats and umbrellas and,
um, putting, put, put that on the stairs.

So it's one of the
really fun things about.

I think being a developer, you
can kind of pull in all these

different people and actually you
can make it, make it more creative.

And you know, we got a local brewery
to move in there and one of other

sites in Bristol, they set up a
Michelin Star restaurant in there.

And um, so, you know, we just try and,
um, um, um, we wanna try and create

places people want to be, want to
live, whether you can, whether you're

actually buying a flat there or not,
because we mainly do residential.

We do do some commercial.

But actually creating places
that people want to live in, but

also places people want to visit.

'cause they're that, you know, they're
that nice, they're that lovely.

So, yeah, no, it's um, it's the, so
I'm sure there's more then there's.

There's a sanatorium in the South Downs,
which was built to, for tuberculosis,

and it was designed by the Architect,
Charles Holden, um, who went on to

do lots of tube stations in London.

And the landscape Architect
was, um, Gertrude.

So again, it was all, it's
all, um, pretty special.

So on that one, we got to look
through the old plans working with LUC

landscape architects, go through the
old plans and recreate her lost gardens.

Um, and.

Knocked down, we knocked down about
200,000 square foot of ugly modern

hospital buildings and restored the
buildings back to where they were

and got consent for some new houses
in the grounds that paid for all.

So, um, it's, I just, I just love,
um, immersing myself in the history

and, you know, I like a challenge and.

Conversion is a real challenge and it's
kind of, it's not for the fantastic,

it's for someone who wants to roll up
their sleeves and, and, um, look through

drawers of old plans and find out where
the bread proofing room was or where

the nurse's common room was or something
like that, and try and put that back.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

No, it's, uh, it sounds like they,
they're like these beautiful problems

and challenges and I'd love to go
into that in a little bit more detail.

But before we do that, how do you even
find these then Simon is there, do you

have a team that goes out and scours the
country for these beautiful opportunities?

Um, is it a combination of, you might
as well have a few ideas, like how

do you procure these opportunities?

First of all.

Simon Vernon: So there's not many
developers who want to actually

tackle a huge Victorian building, and
so the market is relatively small.

So most of the, you
know, there's, there are.

Like when you're buying a house,
there's people who are selling

commercial property and they know
that we are the company to go for.

It's something like that.

So we get approached a lot.

Um, some of the deals take a long
time to come to fruition, and

some of them are quite quick.

We've got, we've got a really good.

Relationship with Historic England,
and there's some great people

I work with there who, uh, who,
um, um, you know, who, who we can

have a really good dialogue with.

So it's just, it's like buying a house
but on a much, much bigger scale with

different agents and, um, it's, it's,
it's, it's relatively straightforward.

Stephen Drew: Is it, is it tough
sometimes that you might have a

beautiful building, but it because
you, it has to stack up as a business?

It has to be work.

What work for the people
inhabiting it as well at the end?

Is it, do you find sometimes Simon
and you're tone of like, oh, I'd love

to do this one, but it just probably,
it could be a total nightmare or

it might not stack up financially.

Do you have those
conversations in-house as well?

Simon Vernon: Yeah, conversion
is difficult 'cause it is.

It is much, much more
expensive than building you.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Simon Vernon: there's much more
risk 'cause you don't quite

know what you're gonna find.

Or you might find dry rot everywhere.

Or you might, um, find bits of
steel that are, you know, about

to fall down and things like that.

So there's much bigger risks in it,
and you need reasonably good sales

values to make it, make it stack up.

So that's why, you know,
London has good values.

The stuff we're doing in Bath
and Bristol has good values.

And when we did stuff in Edinburgh,
but we have looked at stuff further

afield, but it is more difficult.

Um, so there are some sites where there's
an absolutely beautiful building, but

actually the restoration costs are
more than the sales values would be.

So those are the ones that are the
biggest challenge and um, there's

not always an answer to them.

So there are, so yeah, it's, um,
it's challenging and you have to.

Um, go into it with your eyes open
and know what the risks are and have,

have, um, contingency sums and all
the, all kind of boring stuff that

the commercial team deal with at work.

And I get to do the fun stuff of
coming up with the ideas and um,

which is the bit I really like doing.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Well it's, it's good to, it's important
to visualize the, the process and,

and in terms of the design stuff.

So have you found then, Simon, over
the years, because I remember, so

when I was studying in Archite.

It was cad.

Now we have Revit and you see all
these different technologies like,

uh, topical surveys and stuff right.

For, um, dealing with old buildings.

Do you think like the increase in
technology and tools has helped at

all do these buildings or is it,
is it always been a case of, do

you know what, where's a will as a
way we'll do it anyways, you know?

Simon Vernon: I think for conversion,
it doesn't make as much difference

because actually you are, it's there
already, so you're walking it and you

can see it in 3D and quite often we're
actually, um, spraying out on the

floor where the ward's are gonna be.

So actually we can walk it and imagine it.

So.

And I still, I was gonna say I still
use tracing paper, but actually I

don't, I now use, um, an app on my
laptop that I can flip over, and so

I can draw, you know, on PDFs and
scale them off and things like that.

So technology does make things
a bit easier, but actually you,

you just need, um, um, to try
and picture things in your mind.

And a lot of it for me is
about proportions and scale.

So on the elevations, but also, you
know, if you're doing a building a.

It might sound obvious, but if you're
designing a three bedroom flat and

they're all double bedrooms, you need
to make sure there's enough safer

space for six people to sit and watch
telly and the table that's big enough.

And that the number of architects who,
um, like Architecture school great.

'cause you, you do all these weird and
wonderful wacky things, but actually

they don't tell you how big a table
and chairs should be and, um, how big

a double bed is and things like that.

And actually it's the,
a lot of it is just.

Imagining, like what I try and imagine
on each flat is what I'm living there.

You know, where am I gonna put
the furniture and how's it gonna

work, and where's the Hoover going?

And, and it's just being really kind of
just trying to imagine living there and,

and, but you need to spend a lot of time
walking around on site as well and looking

at the views and the windows and things.

So it's, it's, it is good.

It's very, um.

It's interactive.

'cause I'm, you know, I'm talking to
the salespeople, I'm talking to interior

designers, talking to the technical
team about where so pipe's gonna go.

It's much more complicated now in terms
of fire and sprinklers and things,

which is, you know, all really positive.

There's much more focus on that now.

So there's a huge.

Huge challenge, pulling it all together.

But I love, you know, I love
getting everyone around the table.

Everyone's got all their own ideas and
actually everyone feeds in and you end

up with something much, much richer.

And that's, that's like architects
I think are really good.

I think they'd be, most architects be
really good in any business 'cause they're

good at pulling people together and, you
know, talking and getting things done and,

and kind of project management and stuff.

So it's, uh.

It's a fun job, but it's also what I
like best is something to show for.

At the end of the day, I couldn't do
a job where, you know, you're just

moving numbers around on a spreadsheet
or, I mean, what would you have

to show your kids when you retire?

I don't know.

So actually doing, being involved in
stuff where you are creating stuff

and, you know, people can live and love
and stuff, it's, you know, it's great.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Now FIII, I think that is one of the
beauties of Architecture that you can go

walk through it, like you say, go to the
site and say that you evolved in there.

Um, I have one more question about.

Hack per se.

And there is a lot of price
coverage about AI at the moment.

People are talking about it, people
are worrying about can they take,

uh, my job and this and that.

Now, with what you are saying and
the buildings, I don't foresee

that ever happening, Simon,
that AI could do what you do.

But do you have like a, a
thoughts and feelings about, um.

The way the, the industry's going with
all this stuff, do you think it will

affect what you do on a day-to-day
basis or Absolutely not at all.

Simon Vernon: I think AI
is like, you know, um.

All these AI assistant, they're great
at coming up with a company logo

or something like that, but I think
for, and they'll probably end up

being good at designing like a simple
house plan or something like that.

But, but I think having that
spark or that new idea or, um.

You know, I don't think they're
gonna get there, but what I'm really

hoping is I'll start doing some
of the more tedious bits of it.

So actually they'll start doing the
electrical layouts for you and working

out where the sprinkler pipes need to go.

And you know, because, because some
of it is just following rules and, and

I think AI is good at understanding
rules or algorithms and turning them

into something, but I think the.

creative aspect.

I mean, AI is not gonna go and buy a
site and build it and sell it, you know?

It's, it's so, so it is gonna,
you know, I think it will help.

But if I was thinking about, I mean,
my daughter's gonna go off and study

Architecture next year and I'd haven't
pushed her down that way at all.

But I, you know, I'm not saying
to her, don't do it 'cause

AI's gonna have your job.

You know, I think it's, it's, it's
still an amazing job and I think AI

is gonna be good for it and help.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I,
I feel like that too.

Um, and maybe on that point,
uh, it is really interesting.

So your daughter's going into it.

You didn't push her into it, so
that's cool as well, isn't it?

I mean, what do you, uh, there's
a few things I wanna unpack.

So wanna unpack what, like I, what's like
to work on your team, but on this subject.

Now we are thinking about your daughter
studying Architecture now in 2025.

It is.

It's completely different.

It's completely different
to when I did it.

It's completely different
to when you did it.

Do you have like any advice for people
who are studying Architecture now or maybe

you would do things a bit differently or
do you, do you have any insights on them?

Simon Vernon: I think it's been
really interesting 'cause we've,

'cause I've gone on quite a few open
days with my daughter and actually

lots of the schools of Architecture
are very different and I think.

I think like I'm more of, there are some
more creative scores of Architecture and

there's some more technical scores of
Architecture and the industry needs both.

So, um, you just need to go
wherever, you know, whichever.

If you're really good at, you know,
art and product design and you know,

those are your strong points, then
go to one of the more creative ones.

Actually, if.

Science and maths.

And then, you know, there's places
like Bath and other places which are

more, more technical universities.

So I think, I think, um, just to
take your time on it, visit lots of

universities, you know, get lots of
research, talk to lots of people, but it

is generally it's a really good career.

And the rest, some really interesting
younger people coming up through it.

We've got, we have people who
come and do work experience in

the summer and stuff, and it's
just, you know, they come up with.

Amazing ideas, and they're
always brilliant at the, um,

technol technology side of it.

I remember when I first qualified, I
could, CAD was pretty basic then, but

I managed to create a chili pepper
shaped lift, lift shaft or something

for Branson coats, which is complete
nuts, but it was, I've no idea how to

do anything like that now, but actually
the, the younger generation know

how to do all of that kind of stuff.

So, um, I, I, you know, just go for it.

Visit lots of schools of Architecture,
talk to people and go for it.

Stephen Drew: Okay.

It's good advice.

Now, fast forward in a few years,
your daughter will graduate, and

for me the, when you're a part one,
it's like, Ugh, I've graduated,

I've got my grades coming up.

You're doing the end of the exhibition,
and then it's like, oh, okay.

Now I've gotta get a job.

What the lumen heck do I do?

Kind of thing, you know?

So I kind of worked it out as I go.

I made a few mistakes.

Now a lot of the content we do in the
Architecture socialists about getting

that first job in the industry or
getting your second referred job.

Do you have, um, do you have any advice?

And you also an employer, aren't you?

And you manage the design team.

So maybe you could give a bit of
advice on that, but also maybe.

How do people grab your attention,
you know, to work on your team or

get that work experience, you know?

Simon Vernon: I think it's, I
think it's getting work experience.

Even if, even if you're not getting
paid, but getting work experience,

you know, when you are doing your A
levels or you know, before you go to

university and in the summer holidays,
try and get some work experience.

'cause when you look at
people's cvs, if they've.

I mean, it's great to work in a coffee
shop or a bar or, or get the kind of

experience, but actually if they've,
if they've done their degree and

they've never worked in an Architect
practice, I'd be more nervous than

actually if I know who someone has
already spent a few summers at different

practices and they know, they know
what they're letting themselves in for.

So I think.

You know, start, start early, even if
you are just, you know, um, coloring

in on Photoshop or, um, making,
making tea or whatever you're doing,

it's all really good experience
just being in that environment.

I think it's probably more
difficult now with homeworking.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Vernon: When I qualified,
then, you know, everyone was,

it was all on drawing board.

That's how hold am.

It was all on drawing boards when
I, when I started, so everybody

could see what everybody was doing.

And I think things are, with
homeworking and people on

computers, it is more difficult.

But I know a lot of practices, you
know, they don't, they, they don't allow

homeworking or they limit it because
they like to, you know, have that

kinda studio atmosphere in a practice.

Um.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm a small business owner and,
and I think for experienced professionals

it's less of an issue, the hybrid working.

But I do agree, Simon.

I think of a challenge.

How do you get someone that's new to
an industry to learn really quick?

And for me, it was being
thrown in or mirroring you.

Simon, I sit next to you to listen to
you on calls, listen to what you do.

And I think that's so
valuable and you just.

Don't get that, um, online.

And the other thing I always advise
people to do is if they can, is

to go for an interview in person.

Because if you interviewing
online, yes, it might be

convenient, but it goes both ways.

I mean, I could come to
your, uh, office and.

Have a, you know, see you
get a beauty, get all excited

or work out what I wanna do.

And I, but if I don't go to another
Architecture practice or you take a job

online, you might go there and it might
not be right for you, Simon, isn't it?

So, I mean, do you have any thoughts
on, on, on, on my thoughts on that?

Simon Vernon: yeah.

No, and it is, I mean, from the other
side it is difficult interviewing

people because actually you only, you
have their CV and then you might talk

to 'em for half an hour, an hour,
and then you have to make a decision.

You might do a second interview.

So the more the prospective candidates
to do can do to help, um, give.

If the person is interviewing them
confidence, then the easier it will be.

So I think it's having, having the
track record, bringing some really

good pictures of what they've done.

You know, they might, they might have
designed, um, things completely different

at university from the kind of things that
practice does, but that doesn't matter.

It's just you are interested in.

People's approach and talking through
how they've thought, through what

they've designed and having a kind
of logical step-by-step process

and collaborating with people.

There's lots of, there's lots of things
that make people stand, stand out.

And also you're looking at, for people
who actually you think, you know, in a

few years time, I'd be quite happy if
they go meet to client and, you know,

discuss a brief and things like that.

So, um, um, yeah.

Stephen Drew: No, it makes
complete sense, Simon.

And maybe, uh, I've got one or two more
things I want to unpack 'cause um, I

think that's super valuable advice.

The other bit I'm conscious of, you
mentioned earlier you love working with

all these good companies, um, Architecture
practices, you, you talked about Field

and Clagg Bradley and a few other things.

So, uh, what's interesting, so before you
were the Architect who would work with

a developer like yourself, but now the
roles have changed and they, um, and.

Uh, do you have any advice for maybe
the Architect still in the industry

now you've got this other side.

Are there some, maybe mistakes that
architects make or are there some

examples of where you think, ah, that
was great, or, this is what I do?

'cause you've, you've seen the other
side is what I'm trying to say.

So, for the person that's still within an
Architecture practice, what's your advice

on how to best work with a developer?

Simon Vernon: I think you just have to
be really confident in what you're doing.

And like sometimes it is not gonna work,
isn't there Not the right Architect

for a job, but it's not because.

They're a bad Architect.

It's just 'cause the,
the synergy's not there.

So I think, I think it's the same
when you're going for an interview,

you just have to be confident
and you have to be yourself.

The practice has to be confident and has
to be itself and, and done something,

you know, of whatever the brief is
to have thought quite carefully about

the brief and how to respond to it and
have some ideas, and have lots of ideas

and just, just, just kinda sell it.

And also.

Talk about the practice and how
you manage it, like the kind of

the, the less exciting stuff,
but how the practice is run.

How they make sure they're gonna create a
program and get the project done on time.

And, um, that's that and, and
how they're gonna present it

and produce nice 3D drawings.

But there are some amazing
architects out there.

I mean, the stuff field and Clag are doing
for us in bath, you know, it's amazing.

It's, it's, um, they're doing
something really different.

Bath is full of.

Dumbed down Georgian Architecture
and it's become very staid and they,

we are on the edge of bath in a
Victorian bit and they've completely

latched onto the Victorian side and
doing something radically different.

And it's really exciting to see, um,
Keith Bradley and all his team just coming

up with these ideas and it's aspiring
working with really good Architect.

Like that.

And, um, it is the same when we
use Richard Murphy and Edinburgh.

You know, he, they do some crazy
wacky stuff, but actually at

the heart of it, they're a well,
well organized practice who, uh,

technically know how to deliver things.

So it is that kind of mixture of
creativity and practicality and

organization that's, that's what
makes a good Architect for me.

Stephen Drew: Oh, that,
that's really good to know.

The last question I had for me was
more just the sentiment at the moment.

So the time we're recording
this is, is it's April, 2025.

Um, how do you feel about what the
current industry at the moment and

the way we are going into the future,
do you feel positive right now about

the sector and what's happening?

Or do you have potentially
some concerns about.

So what you're seeing at
the moment is all good.

So feeling

Simon Vernon: Yeah, I think, I think
labor are making, I mean, because

we're, we mainly do housing, labor are
making some really good sounds in terms

of, you know, we need to build more.

And the NIMBYs of one completely up
to now, and actually labor have just

said, look, if everyone's a NIMBY,
then you're never gonna build houses.

And actually, um, if, if the
government only releases a

ti amount of land at a time.

Then the person who buys that land is
gonna be a developer who can pay the most

for it, build the cheapest, and squeeze
as many houses on there as possible.

And, and they're not, there won't be any
architects working for that developer.

Probably it'd be a kind
of a, a corporate machine.

And that's, to me, that's not
Architecture, but probably the,

the thing that we see the most.

Landscape is not designed by architects.

It's like awful.

I've gone off the question
slightly, but it's, um,

developments of homes and.

By the Labor Party saying,
no, we need more homes.

And actually the local authorities
need to deliver more homes.

Then the local, then more land is gonna
have to be released, which should give

more opportunities for small and medium
sized developers to actually buy plots

and be different from the big developers
by doing something really creative.

So housing is, is quite often frowned on.

By architects, and most housing is not
designed by architects, but housing is a

really interesting thing to be involved
in because it's where people spend, you

know, a lot of their life living in a
home and creating homes that are beautiful

and you know, there's a place to sit.

And have a coffee in the sun.

And the view you're looking at across
the street is a house with nice

detail, whether it's really modern
or whether it's really traditional,

but it's, it's something that's gonna
weather well and look more beautiful,

then that's a really important thing.

So I'm, I'm really optimistic from
that point of view that if labor can

deliver these extra homes, extra land
that can be allocated for housing,

that's gonna free things up and.

Give great opportunities for small and
medium sized developers and architects.

And architects who work for them to
do something really interesting and

exciting and try and take, take back
these awful houses from these big

developers and create something beautiful.

And some of them might be, um, um.

You know, very highbrow Architecture
and very modern, but actually some of

it also might be really traditional,
but really well done and have

nice scale and nice proportions.

And architects have been magpies.

You know, the, the Georgians told
stuff from the Greeks and the Romans,

the Victorian style stuff from
Tudor signs from medieval times.

There's not, there's nothing
wrong from looking back at

the past and using that today.

So, um, I think, I think, I think.

Housing, get involved in housing.

'cause I think the prospects
there are really exciting.

Stephen Drew: Oh, well
that's good to hear.

'cause I think, especially at the
moment, some people are quite nervous,

nervous about the economic outlook.

However, it's quite
nice to see, especially.

If you are on the forefront of planning
housing and there's a bit of positivity,

then that, that, that means a lot.

Um, and my, uh, when you were talking
about certain housing houses without

characteristics, I was in my head giggle.

'cause my dad calls them naughty
houses, whereas, you know,

take me to the, to the, the.

Uh, the asylum.

'cause that definitely didn't
look like a naughty house to me.

That looked pretty cool.

I'd like to live.

I lived there.

Simon, you've been an absolute pleasure.

I always say, before we go, I
always like to say them, my guests.

If there's anything that
you wanted to ask about me.

I know we only spoke a little bit
before and I, I went on a bit of a

montage about me not doing Architecture.

Now how I've done, and I live in London,
but is there anything you wanted to

ask me at all Simon, before we go?

Simon Vernon: No, I think you, uh, you,
you've got a great job 'cause you get to

talk to people about Architecture and look
at it from dots of different perspectives.

So I think you must have a
really good, you must have your

finger on the pulse on this, so.

Stephen Drew: Well
that's, that's flattering.

I used to be the cheeky trap
in the office, Simon, that

I got along with everyone.

But you'd be like, where's Steve?

He's gotta do that drawing.

We gotta go to site now.

So I, that, that, that was me.

So, um, it's a good thing I'm not working
on your team, however, for people who

want to, um, well, we can speak like this.

We get along in this capacity.

However, if people want to find
out more about the projects.

Or they want to, uh, get in touch with
you or maybe they like the sound of

this and they wanna work on your team.

How do they get in touch with you,
Simon, to learn more and all that jazz?

Simon Vernon: I think
there's going to our website.

Um, which is city and country.co

uk.

And, um, you'll find all our projects
on there and, um, there's some

contacts you can, um, submit forms
with questions and stuff on there too.

So, yeah, no, um, be
delighted to hear from anyone.

Stephen Drew: Oh, well, thank
you so much for making time

out of your day to join me.

I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Simon.

That was really cool and interesting
and good luck to your daughter.

Do you know through Architecture and, and
tell her when she's looking for that job.

Check out all the podcasts.

There's other people like yourself,
Simon, who shared all that wisdom.

Maybe she'll be like, no, I don't
wanna watch the episode with my dad.

'cause I love him at home,
but that's enough for me.

But there are other
people on there as well.

Um.

I joke, but thank you
so much for being on.

Stay on the stage for one more
minute because I want to say thank

you in the audience for tuning in.

Um, I like doing these
podcast episode with you.

I always learn something myself and
what cool way to learn from not only an

Architect, but a developer, their client.

Right.

It helps to get the insight
and do checkout all the cool

projects that city and country do.

I, I said county once, twice before,
but they do counties and countries.

It's all good.

They're in nationwide and doing
all those beautiful projects.

I'm gonna end, uh, the broadcast now.

Thank you so much for everyone.

Simon.

Stay on the stage for one more
minute, but for you and the

audience, I'll see you later.

Take care everyone.

Bye-bye.

Simon Vernon: Thank you.

Bye.