Are you doing enough? How to make an IMPACT and STAND OUT in a crowded job market

0008 - Are you doing enough? How to make an IMPACT and STAND OUT in a crowded job market
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Looks

Jack Moran: like we're live. Thursday, five o'clock, 3rd of September. Guys, it's September already. What's happening to this year? It's gone absolutely crazy, hasn't it? Our time is flying. How are we doing today?

Stephen Drew: It's a non year. It's, it's just like, it's just like the worst year at all. It was the other day, it was February, and I was with Will, and he was saying that the pandemic, don't worry about the stats, and here we are, six or seven months later, and it's, and it's a nightmare!

It's

Jack Moran: hell on earth! How are you guys doing today? Yeah, I'm good, thanks. How are you? Yeah, I'm not too bad, thank you very much. So, today we've gone with a bit of a niche topic, haven't we? This is going to be discussing how to separate yourself from the crowd. Quite philosophical, almost, but I think the big thing to take from this is what you as individuals can do when you're going up against large amounts of [00:01:00] competition.

How are you going to stand out? So, Stephen, first question, why this topic? What's brought this about?

Stephen Drew: Right. I'm glad you asked that, Jack. Very important question. So, there's some really good efforts are going on. So, part of the Architectural Social, we have lots and lots of students at the moment, and some people have landed amazing jobs, and well done.

And a lot of that has been hard sweat and tears. And then I kind of felt that some people are super talented. And it's just not happening. And that can, that sometimes in life, that's the case. Sometimes you get a bit of, um, a bit, a bit of bad luck, right? But when I go into it and we're talking and, and I go, Oh, Steve, and we're finding it really hard to find a job.

You go, Oh, right. Okay. All right. No problem. So how are we going? How are we doing the search? Well, what I do is I, um, I, I write custom letters. to each of the companies. That does [00:02:00] take a bit of time, but I work six to seven hours a day. And in that time, I send four or five CVs. Not enough. You've got to send more and more and more.

So, intervention time. Interventions. Okay. Come closer. So, come closer. Okay. It's all right. We all make mistakes. Okay. We all, we all, sometimes we don't know the way. We don't know the way and we gotta, we gotta adjust and part of it's reframing and taking what's happened, seeing what's happened, seeing what works and what doesn't, and adjusting the formula.

So I want everyone listening here. So I'm, I'm reaching out to you guys, you who is listening, wherever you are. I want you to think about your job search, if you're still looking, and I want you to think about how you're going about it. Have you sent one or two CVs, and are you waiting by the phone being like, I'm sure, I'm [00:03:00] sure they're going to get back?

Well, if that's the case, wake up, okay? There's so much competition right now. We have to be out there. We have to do things differently. We have to cause a ruckus. We almost have to kind of break people from the system. You're in the matrix. You need, you gotta stand out right now, and so How do we stand out?

You could buy yourself a Bell. I'm not too sure that would work as much. I mean, but what we need to do is we need to get your CV and portfolio like we talked about out there. So the first things first, you've got to remember that my opinion is my opinion. Uh, based upon working in industry and what I do in recruitment, some people will tell you to write a tailored CV, send one or two things hand delivered, and that's nice to stand out.

You're only going to stand out to one or two companies doing that. The people that you hand it to. So what [00:04:00] I'm interested in right now is how are people Reaching out to the most amount of companies that they're interested in working for and a few that, you know, maybe they don't know about, but they're touching base to see there's a few jobs.

And how do you get noticed? Okay, so the first thing's first, you can only get noticed by how many people you reach out to. So if you reach out to two, You've got one. See, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't press the bell there, Will. There's no problem. So if you've got one or two companies, guess what? One or two might get back to you.

If you've reached out to a hundred, A hundred will have seen you, right? But then, you've got to make sure that when you're in front of them and you have that minute in the moment, M& M style, we've got to get our freestyle, we've got to get our rap going. So, you've got to make sure that the content counts and that CV and portfolio needs to be blinding.

It needs to be, uh, finessed. The basics need to be there. [00:05:00] And then when the document's with the people, you've got to reach out. You've got to kind of go through the nether. You've got to reach out, grab people's attention, right? And bring them to your quality CV and portfolio. And the way we do that is we get on the phone, get your mask on, go for a little walk around.

You've got to do everything and anything. And what you can't do right now is go, Oh, well, I've spoken to one or two recruiters, and I'm sure they're going to get back to me because I'm a recruitment consultant right now. And it's really tough. And we are all trying really hard. The truth is though, a recruitment consultant is only going to have a certain amount of jobs right now.

And especially if you're a graduate or if you've been made redundant or you're on furlough, you have to look out for number one. And yes, you can explore recruitment consultants. The best person to sell yourself is going to be you. You need to think of yourself almost like a business, [00:06:00] almost like An enterprise or a show, you need to get yourself out there, you need to get noticed.

And it's whether that's on LinkedIn, sending a message. I've seen one or two of them go viral, get a horn, maybe not get it on, do something to stand out, make sure your LinkedIn is tip top, get that CV, get that portfolio and get out there. And then that's why I did this today, because I feel like some people have done such a good effort and they're getting jobs and for everyone else, if you're sending loads of CVs out and good for you, really good for you.

And if you, if you, if you're really pushing hard. I'm on your side and I'm your biggest supporter. You can't be surprised right now though if you sent one or two CVs and you're not hearing everything. And that is the kind of the purpose. of this today was a bit of tough love a little bit of come on now you can do better because I believe in you I know [00:07:00] you can do better I know you can push it a bit further you have to be a little bit out of your comfort zone and the worst thing you can do is kind of do nothing or slow tailored that's the

Jack Moran: big thing Stephen that you were just talking about there you know the whole idea of the uh the comfort zone do you not think that's probably like the biggest sort of setback for a lot of people going out there because they don't they might not necessarily like, you know, like when you have to call people, practice up and actually chase feedback for some people, that might be a bit of an awkward situation, isn't it?

But like I'm saying, the thing with anything, any goals you have, any, any sort of career aspirations, anything you want to do, you have to understand that you have to do things that you're not okay with at times, because otherwise you're not, you're just going to be the same person doing the same things.

And if you're only sending out one or two CVs, as opposed to person B, who sent out a hundred CVs and called them a hundred practices within X amount of time. That person there who actually put themselves out of their comfort zone is the person who's going to get, you know, a lot of interviews. [00:08:00] So,

Stephen Drew: that's exciting.

A hundred percent. It's like these, these webinars, I didn't feel comfortable doing them at the start. I was like, Oh no, we're going to go live. It's going to be really awkward. And now we're, I've got horns and bells and all this stuff, right? So I've kind of, okay, okay. I need, I need to, I need to calm down a bit.

Uh, I just get passionate about this topic because You have to go out of your comfort zone, and it is not nice sending It's quite tough sending volume CVs. It's really hard to ring up companies speculatively, and no one kind of wants to hear a no. And you might feel a bit insecure about it, but you're going to get rejection.

The thing is, if you don't ring up, you'll never find out. And think of it like constructive criticism. There's a lot of examples, so on the Architecture Social, we have the workshop group. Some people send CVs. Hey, the best thing, even if your CV is not quite there or what, the first thing you should do always is look at the examples there [00:09:00] and kind of finesse that, but what you want to do after that is you want to basically, you need to put yourself out there, you need to expose yourself and you need to ask why is it not working?

And what you don't want to do is kind of bash your head against the wall going like, I don't understand why there's It's not working. What's happening? And then it's just like you need to address the CV and portfolio and have a little look at examples which work. If someone's got a job, ask them how they got it and learn from it.

And if you take on good, take on good feedback, you will improve the formula. Always improving. Always changing. Like the way I've added horns and bells and whistles. You develop the formula over time. And guess what? You're never going to get it right the first time. It's a feedback loop. How do you change that CV?

What works? Is [00:10:00] the file too big? Is it not? Did you make a call and you were too pushy? Did you make a call and, and you were too standoffish? Or, you know, and after a few of the calls, what will probably happen is you'll muscle through them. You'll be polite and then you'll just be used to it. Like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Let me ask you a question. How many people have called up after they see these go? It's, and it's like, we have to, we have to have a bit of a tough laugh session because there could be a second wave. Second wave? Oh no, right? It could be anything and it's gonna, it could get really tough. I think Jack Pringle was saying, uh, I read today that it's going to get tougher before it gets easier.

Not a lot of Brits have an appetite to go back to the office. I'll be back in the office next week. Actually, that's going to be, that's going to be interesting. You know, me walking up Oxford Street again with my, with my mask, but we've got to be out there. You've got to be on the I'm proud you're going to be looking and I think that the person that goes the extra mile wins.

And the person that has the good [00:11:00] CV quality and portfolio wins. And the, and the person that goes for a lot of interviews has a lot of choice. The person who is selective at the start has a narrow funnel and that's what, then that's That's kind of my point. I think the person that is more out there, and it's the same with our jobs, isn't it, boys?

It's the same thing that if you're not engaged, and if you're not out there, and you're not transparent, and you're not looking for feedback, and you're not looking to improve, then you, in this climate, you could be overlooked. You, uh, let me rephrase that. You will be overlooked, and that's how it is because we're, we're, if things are going in the right direction, there's a lot of talented people looking for jobs right now.

So we need to be out there. We'll, before I ring another bell. Save the listeners from and get the

Will Ridgway: [00:12:00] stuff. So I've been sitting back and just listening to you just go on. I didn't expect the megaphone as well. That caught me off guard. Yeah? Do you like

Stephen Drew: it? I didn't expect that one. I was keeping people on their toes.

As should you with your applications. And the way you bring it

Will Ridgway: back

Stephen Drew: in.

Will Ridgway: You kept me on my toes. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I can't really add anything else more to that other than just reiterate everything that you've said, really, because it's all about persistence. And I think a lot of people limit themselves at the beginning when they're too selective, and then that narrows their funnel.

And that means towards the end, you don't, well, you might not even get to the end. That's the problem. I think as well, what people forget is that if you've got lots of options, you've applied to hundreds and hundreds of backers. Practices every single day, you're getting interviews. You suddenly stand out more because you're telling these interviewers that I've got five other interviews elsewhere because I've been making a thousand applications in total.

That alone makes you stand out [00:13:00] because no one else that they're interviewing has probably done that. Yeah. Second of all, they're keen on you because they're thinking, well, if these practices are interesting to them, Then I should be interested in them as well. Clearly this person is a good architect or a good part one or whatever.

And so if something makes you more desirable and that alone makes you stand out. So actually doing all of the hard grinding at the beginning of applying to loads of places will make you stand out at the end because your tenacity pays off. And that we recognize because you need, you need that sort of attitude when you are working within an architecture practice because it's, you know, you're, you're hitting deadlines.

It's not, you know, sit back and relax hour. You're working really hard to try and accomplish a goal. And so they're looking for individuals that have that attitude that can get tasks done quickly, smartly, and effectively.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that I agree. And that's the point. You, you, you're going to, when you go for this [00:14:00] job, you're going to give it your all.

The thing, the person you've got to, the way you're going to be in the job, there's the way you've got to take job seeking. Job seeking is a job in itself. It's a nightmare. Anyone that says anything different is, I think. It's jobless. Well, sometimes you can be the hole in one guy, right? Like I've got one friend and you know, uh, he's a doctor.

He was just effortlessly good at everything, right? And he was just like, the thing is, he's such a nice guy and I love him to bits. He was just good at everything. I managed to get a job, got accepted in the courses, let alone me, I'm struggling away. Right? Guess what? There's not many people in life that have that thing.

Then there's that guy, that guy will blitz through in uni and get good grades and, you know, get the job in Heatherwick goes, Oh, I've got a job. Well, I was never that person. I was the person that sent a thousand CVs. So.

Jack Moran: I think Stephen as well, you know, when you're talking about your, um, you've [00:15:00] met, you know, you've brought it up before about how you tackled, you know, going into a practice as well.

And that was. Before COVID, wasn't it? That was, this is the big thing I think that, um, a lot of people listening need to grasp onto. When you were applying for jobs you've had, you know, high level activity and that was before there was a global pandemic. So, in this year, when there is a pandemic and you think people are even more busier, with even less time to look over, you know, practices, people in practices have enough on their plates right now thinking about What they're going to be doing in the future.

So I think it's almost like you need to triple the effort in this year, particularly because you're going to have a mass of people applying for things, but you might not have a mass of people who are calling straight up afterwards and saying, oh, you know, I sent in my CV, just wondering if you had any feedback, or if you've not had a chance to look at it, that's fine.

Can I call you back next week or something? And then even if, you know, it goes negative or you have an interview doesn't go well, being that person who says, right, completely understand. Thank you for your time. Is there any feedback you can give me? To help me progress further and at that [00:16:00] point, they'll probably say right.

Well, at least that person is mature enough to, you know, ask for this kind of feedback. So I think for everyone in here recognize that it is a difficult time and it's a very difficult time this year. And like Stephen said, with the You know, there's whispers of a second wave. No one knows what's going to happen in the future, but more than ever, you need to put yourself outside of your comfort zone.

Don't be scared of people. You know, if you're one of those people who might find it a bit awkward, you know, calling a place up because you've never spoken to them and you don't want to annoy them or, you know, get on their nerves, don't Just understand that they're just people and the worst thing they're ever going to say to you is no, or I haven't looked over it, or you know, sorry, but we saw your CV, but we don't like it.

You just got to get past that sort of mental block that a lot of people have when it comes to doing these sort of what people just call awkward

Stephen Drew: situations. You need to fix things. I reckon inboxes are quite chock a block right now, so actually, if you ring up, the point is you'll stick out and people will find your CV, so send the CV, and then a day or two after, follow up and ask if you got the CV, and then a week [00:17:00] after, then follow up.

Everything, you'll need to, you need to be so switched on with all this, and it's got to the point that I think now, that what I really liked about our, um, We went through this, everything from in my head and the process of everything from the start, you know, in our webinar series of CVs right to the end.

And we had a chat about this before, or I kind of had a chat with you guys about, we're thinking, Oh, do we rehash the same thing? And the answer is no. I think that that course, uh, or that if you go over that, you've covered everything. And if you apply that methodology, to job seeking efficiently, uh, There's no doubt you will, you will get, you will be more results because the whole point of what we're talking about and the whole goal of everything I'm talking about is if you're proactive and you take matters into your own hands, you take accountability [00:18:00] and you think about getting that CV and portfolio to the best it can be and then you send it to the maximum amount of places that you're interested in and you, you record and you follow up and you ring Bye bye.

Then, and you go out there, and you attend interviews, and you chase feedback, then I guarantee you, you will go, you will go through the process, and my basis on that is because I've done it, and I've seen hundreds of people do it. What I don't, what we have to get past is, You can't wait. Okay. And things are never going to be perfect.

You can't go, well, I'm not going to call because I'm not too sure what to say, or should I do this? Or should I do that? Or should I say, um, is it the right time now? Should I wait an hour or two? And there's going to be always Everyone's got an opinion of when to do it or not and I just think just do it.

Just [00:19:00] do it. Get the CV out there. Go for interviews and just pick up the phone. And there's no script. If you're waiting for a script from me or anyone else, guess, I guess I could do a little script or something like that. It's never going to be genuine and people are looking for human context. They're looking for realism.

So this is kind of um, my Plea. It's almost like, oh, I want to say it's not so much a wake up call, but it's about now we've gone through that and. If there's the same questions there, then my question is more looking at yourself. And that's what I've learned right now. It's more about, you can ask me, Should the CV, should I move the title from here to there?

And I almost want to turn around and go, Do you think that makes much of a difference? Or do you think What would make more of a difference now is to send this out, try to get feedback from the [00:20:00] companies, and from then, adjusting it. Should we wait for 100 percent perfection? Should we send the CV out? And then when the CV's out, do we, do we sit down here?

Like this? And wait for the phone to ring? Oh no, it didn't ring. Or do we go out there and call them ourselves? This is,

Jack Moran: um, on that note, Stephen, we had a question come in, um, pretty relevant to the topic at hand. It was saying that when we, when they call up those companies, um, are they asking for a follow up or are they simply asking if they receive the CV?

Um, I was going to say first, you probably would never need to, you know, Ask a company if they received your CV because likelihood is you'll be going to a generic email anyway. So as long as there's no faults at your end in terms of attaching the CV and portfolio or the message, you shouldn't have any problems.

So you can always call a company up and ask if they received your CV though, [00:21:00] but like Stephen said, it might be worth waiting. If you send the CV out, Wait one or two days, just say, oh hi, my name's X. Have you read the CV? Yeah, and you have.

Will Ridgway: What did you think? To be honest, I think it's um, worth having actually a bit of fun with it.

You know, maybe people might think, well, why should I risk it? But at the same time, when you're calling up someone, as long as you're not, uh, you know, spiteful, as long as you come across well, any conversation is fine, as long as it's thoughtful and it's relevant. So, for example, you have a bit of fun, talk about, oh, I've seen that you won this project last week.

It looks amazing. I'm actually looking for a job myself. Yeah. Would you be interested, uh, in myself to help out at all? Something like that. Just play around with it. Find out what works because things would work for everyone else, but it's actually about how you come across because the point of a call is not to, not necessarily just to remind them that you've made an application, but to also [00:22:00] present yourself.

You know, it's a, it's a step. It's like when you were going to an interview, you do it because you want to, uh, you're trying to show off your personality in there, but you can actually show your personality during the application stage with the phone call. And that's the point of it. I think, um, that's what's really

Stephen Drew: I think you're bang on.

It's like running your own business. Imagine that you're running your own business right now, and the business is either Stephen Drew, or it's Will Ridgway, or it's Jack Moran, alright? And so yourself, so you're, you're, you're basically, you're coming across the best you can. You're gonna get the best suit possible.

You're gonna feel great. You're gonna feel employable. You're gonna get a great webcam. You're going to get a microphone. You're going to organize yourself. You're going to get an Excel table. You're going to, you've asked, you're going to look at all the examples or you, for instance, on the Architecture Social, look at all the feedback given to other CVs and portfolios.

Have a hard think about what works, what doesn't. And then [00:23:00] you want to find people that have succeeded, and then look at what they've done. The best recipe is other people, and I'm not on about copying, I'm on about what works, because you can't just copy and paste someone's, because what we're on about here is your personality, who you are.

What we want to do though is canvas that to the architectural job market in the best way possible. So again, it's like the best suit, Getting all the equipment, getting that CV and portfolio right, and feeling confident in yourself. And that takes a long time. But what you can do is by, by bringing more people and getting out there and speaking to people, you will begin to feel more confident and you will learn more.

Even if it's tough, you remember, you're sick of battle, you're surviving. So you've taught, you've put up your CV, your portfolio, you've got it all tip top, and then you're going to call people up, and it's going to be really awkward. And I want everyone here to think about, be [00:24:00] honest with yourself. If you're listening, how many companies have you called?

Okay? Be honest with it. And, hey, I feel like I sound like my parents now. I don't mind, I don't mind what number it is, but, Think about it for yourself. If you want to do a few calls, then you're gonna have experienced it yourself. It's gonna be scary. It's not gonna be fun. And then over time you get better at it, okay?

And if you are a confident happy go lucky person, then well good on you. Get on that get on that blower and impress people. It's these things. They're not comfortable. It's What, what, what I'm trying to get past is that this whole job search, you're gonna feel uncomfortable. It's in the aspects where you're uncomfortable that you develop skills over time.

Again, going back to this, I feel much more confident and now maybe too confident. Maybe I've got too many f ing vowels at the moment, right? And you reign it in. You reign the [00:25:00] formula in. I'll put it in the survey afterwards. Too many bells, too many knots. Bells aside, that process should be with your CV and portfolio and getting the job.

And what I'm saying is, is because this is like the number 10, now we feel a bit more, uh, confident with it. If for, at the first one, when I was going on stage, I was, I was really nervous. But I forced myself to do it. And that's what we got to do. And that's what you guys have got to do. You've got to force yourself to, uh, expose your CV and portfolio.

You've got to ask questions. You've got to talk with each other. And what you can't do is you can't rely on other people. One person, as in you need to speak to many people. You need to understand that people are busy and that's fine. But if you ask those people and if they're too busy, that's cool. But you need to go out there and you need to kind of push.

It's the movers and shakers. And I always thought that was a kind of a cool name. And the point is movers and shakers move [00:26:00] and shake. And if you don't move and you don't shake things up. It's like it says, you stay still. And we can't afford to stay still right now because there's lots of people who've got jobs.

Don't think that right now, because of the global pandemic, there is no jobs. Because right today, I know someone who's had a job offer, who is on the Architectural Social. I've known a few people. There's this really nice chap who's just got a job at Stride Tregloan. Oh, I always feel like I can never say their name properly.

Stride Tregloan. I don't think you said it right. Yeah, I think it either. I've got my Welsh accent. Right? Great company. I bet you they had a lot of applicants. But he shone out for who he was. Being humble. There was no bells. Much more humble than me. Maybe me when I was 18, right? The thing is, he went out there, he pushed, went for an interview, showed him his true self.

Everyone is employable, and it's about finding the right place. You just need to give yourself the benefit. So, [00:27:00] I think you should. Go through all the courses, the ones that we've done. I think this is probably going to be the last one for me for now, because I almost want it to be like that gap, where I force people, we force people to think.

Because it's all the information's there, okay? And what's more, the webinars that we've done, I think, hopefully, I think they're helpful. But you know what's the most helpful thing? It's speaking with one another. And again, what I really like about the Architecture Social is the community aspect. I'm learning stuff all the time.

Things work, things don't. Sometimes, remember, we set up groups, guys. We get 20 people turn up, other times we get one or two. I don't know. And, and I sometimes, uh, I have a giggle, I have a laugh from where, and it's always evolving. And that's through a conversation. And there's so many people looking for jobs, uh, and at the moment, and there's so many people who are on the community who are in jobs, who are [00:28:00] employers or people who are professionals.

And my challenge would be is to, um, expose yourself a little bit and say, Hey, I've done my CV and portfolio. This is where I'm at.

What do you think? That's a good one. Or the other one, I would love to see someone, let's see if that happens after this, on the Architectural Social. I mean, you could do it on LinkedIn, you could do it wherever you want. Um, just talking. Um, I've had a tough week. I didn't get anywhere. I sent 20 CVs. Good for you.

Right? Thanks for letting me know. I appreciate that. And why don't we push it to 22, 25 next week? You can do it. Amazing. Amazing, amazing, amazing. Talking, going through things. Because by doing that, you learn. You go better. It's like me. Will. Ugh, I put a bit of weight on. Right? Ah, Steve, you know what to do.

I'm glad you told us. Right? Oh, I [00:29:00] know. I'll have to deal with it. Okay, talking. The worst thing you can do is bottle things up. People go, How's the job search? Oh, I don't want to speak about it, it's really stressful, you wouldn't understand. That's not going to get you anywhere. Expose yourself. Talk about it.

But you want to talk about it with people who are currently looking as well. You share the successes, and you share what doesn't work. Oh, I had a tough interview. This and that. But okay, that information is valuable to other people. So, how do you stand out? The first thing you talk, you talk with people, you talk with people who are looking with you, you talk with employers, you engage, you stand out.

Hey, if you want to do a little website and a cool little video, yeah, you can do like all kind of funky ideas. Maybe you're on LinkedIn and you've got a little video there or your YouTube. That's great. I'm all for that. You develop a program or you publish a bit of artwork. Amazing! You do [00:30:00] something in the short term?

Charity work? Great! Talk about it. That's the point. Talk about it. Talk about what you're doing. Do something different. And I'm, it's less about is, should I, should I program this? Should I, should I do this art? Yes, amazing, but just do it. Do it now. It's not too late. It's far from too late, but we have to do it now.

And that's what I wanted to get across. If you've sent me five CVs. Tomorrow. Five more. Don't beat yourself up about tomorrow, and that's one thing I don't want anyone here to do. Do not feel bad about if you haven't figured out a job yet. Do not blame yourself. Do promise yourself that tomorrow, you're gonna change.

You're going to pick, you're going to phone someone up, you're going to, you're going to ask for feedback. You're going to, before you ask, you're going to say, you're going to research [00:31:00] what ones work and what don't. You're not going to go up to someone with a CV when you haven't cared about it. You're going to look at other people's work, you're going to see what works and what doesn't.

And you're going to give it a tip top. And then you're going to talk to people. You are going to be the most professional version of yourself, because you are that. And you're going to ramp it up again, because if you ramp it up again The person that's hiring, they will see that and they go, Oh, I need someone on my team with a bit of fire in their belly like that.

So, do it now. Tomorrow. Get up. Get up early. Dress. Feel proud of what you've done. And start getting things ready, whether it's tidying up that CV, tidying up that portfolio, but do it now, and do not, no, you don't need to beat yourself up, you've got to push forward, and you've got to learn, and you're going to make mistakes, but we need to make those [00:32:00] mistakes quicker, and you need to expose yourself, and you need to call up, and you need to feel uncomfortable.

It's like wobbling off the bike, you're going to fall on the floor, you're going to hit your head, you're going to hurt yourself. But if we, we, if we concentrate and we do that now, it's like the person, it's like the guitar, isn't it? It's something I, I was like, Ugh. Do you know I learn a guitar and I can't just get far and dah, dah, dah and actually guitar, learn a guitar.

It's all about hours. It's all about how many hours you put in. It really isn't. Okay, say now. Um, Jack's slightly better and make guitars. Oh yeah. Alright, Jack. Slightly better. By that. But I bet you the reason why Jack's much better at guitar is probably 'cause he's put much more hours in and actually maybe has a bit of dexterity.

However, if I put more, a bit more hours in than Jack, then that diminishes and we're the same. And the, and there's that quote, isn't it, of like, it's funny that, uh, that the, the luckier I get seems to be that the [00:33:00] more lucky I am is when I practice more. And this is the thing. The more interviews you get is the more CVs you sent out and the better, the better your CV looks is by how many examples you've done and how you've changed it and then you getting it out.

It's everything and everything, more and more and more. And what you find is that, I was on about my friend earlier, um, the one that effortlessly has gone through to everything. And do you know what? I'm doing him a disservice right now, because my emotion was like, oh, he's just talented and everything. But let me tell you, when I was knocking around, you know, in Swansea, up and down the streets when I was 15 or 16, he was at home reading books.

Okay? And he worked so hard. I worked hard, he worked insanely hard. And he could do piano, he could do all this stuff. And it was because he was talented, but he went the extra mile. [00:34:00] And I've got one friend who was a natural genius, but lazy. And my mate, who's not as smart with it as him, but put more hours in, got further in life.

And it's the same with me, you know, when I worked in architecture, I did okay. Um, now in this world, when you suddenly, when you start putting more effort in, and it's a bit like what we talk about, isn't it? No one say, and this is my thing, it's like when you go into architecture practice, I'm not on about working through the midnight, because that's working inefficient, but I like it when people go on their own accord.

It's like YouTube. I can give you a task. If you do one of five or ten things in a table, for example, let's say now you're making a table, and you do five or ten, and you could do them 20 to 30. Well, that's up to you. Because the amount you put in, It dictates how much you want it and how fast you learn.

Okay? Um, unless it's data entry and then it's a bit [00:35:00] frustrating. But other than that, the prin the principle is that the people who get far in life are the people who go the extra mile. Bill Gates, all this stuff. I mean, how many hours? How much Steve Jobs. How many hours? How much reject how much No one, everyone just sees the shiny product at the end.

Jack Moran: That's true, no one ever sees, no one sees the graft behind it. It's like, you can apply that to like, even with gym and stuff, you know, like so many things. No one ever likes to see the graft. You know, even Zaha Hadid, did she start where she left off? No, she would have had to push that. I bet

Stephen Drew: you she, she worked all along.

She worked long, long, long, long hours. I doubt

Jack Moran: she just had everything handed to her on a plate, you know.

Stephen Drew: It's like, it's like the gym now. When I talk to you about the gym things, like, ah, you're like, right, you're going to give me, right. Okay. Steve, if you want to do all this, you're going to do. I do 200 push ups or whatever in the morning and I'm like, oh man, that's sort of a nightmare.

And you're like, well, that's what it takes. And I'm like, oh yeah. And because now I know that [00:36:00] actually there is a correlation between doing it and not. And this is what we were talking about this week is because I'm slowly, now I'm going back on the exercise bike and doing your own things. And before it's like in denial world.

Oh, you know, it's a bit difficult. And then I'm disappointed then. I'm like, I'm lost any weight this week. It's because, it's because I haven't got on the exercise bike and I haven't done anything. And you're doing 200 setups a day. And that's how you lose weight and accomplish goals. And it's the same thing with you.

If you want a job in the best architectural practices and you want to go far in life, it's an attitude of going above and beyond. And remember, in this scenario, when you're job seeking, you are going above and beyond. For yourself, for you, you are doing it for you. So, um, that's what you need to do. That's what you need to go about, above and beyond.

And anything less, [00:37:00] it's you who is looking for a job. It's you who's going to work in this company. So this is a massive return on investment. All this energy that you will go in, you will personally learn from it. You will ideally Go for more interviews and you will see more opportunities. So the way to stand out is to go and push yourself above and beyond.

And this was a trick question because there is no one way. The more you're tackling that question and the more you're fighting with sending cvs, sending portfolios, working hard, getting organized, getting a suit, speaking to people failing. The more you do that, the more you will stand out. Because you're going to be a finessed finished article.

So cool. Should we leave it on that? No, sure. We've

Jack Moran: got,

Stephen Drew: we've got

Jack Moran: one question, Stephen, for you might like to, uh, because you're going to be going back into the office soon as well. And it's just about the idea of practices whether or not that you think they'll be looking at doing flexi work in You know, now, obviously with the Covid thing,

Stephen Drew: now flexi [00:38:00] working is almost in a, it's almost almost seen as a negative PE if there is a job.

PE people want you to work full the time. You are gonna advertise yourself as something that's gonna work really hard, work as much as possible, and. Yeah, if, if certain things 'cause your life parameters are in place, then you have to go above and beyond a different way. So if, for instance, you need to do a school drop or something else, then the reality is then maybe in the evening you'll plug yourself in for an hour or two more.

The, the person that works the hardest is the one that survives right now. It is do or die when the going gets tougher, tough. Get tougher. Um. You have to be realistic to real life and yeah, things, you can move things around and you, you can make things happen, but you have to go above and beyond and we have to send out cvs.

We have to, for apply for jobs. We have to, we have to, basically, you wanna work, don't work for free or anything like that. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that you're gonna get paid for what you do. And [00:39:00] you're gonna, you're gonna look for a good reward on the back of that. If you work hard, you should get paid well, right?

But right now we're after experience and we need to get in the industry. So you can worry about being a millionaire later. Uh, we just need to get going right now and being unemployed hurts, being on furlough hurts. And, um, We all want to go back. We're all in a difficult situation, but yeah, we need to pump them irons and Jack, right?

I see

Jack Moran: someone's a fan of our gym analogy. Good point though, to think, you know, we've like talked about the gym, anything like this as well. Whenever you're working, whenever you're doing something that seems like it's tedious or boring or you don't want to do it, you have to remember that you're never doing it So you're doing it for that immediate satisfaction.

You'll never see sending out CVs because you're immediately going to get an interview or you're immediately going to get a job or people need to realize is that the work you're putting in today is to get the rewards tomorrow or further down the line. Same with Jim. No one gets a, no one gets a six pack overnight.

You have to keep working at it and [00:40:00] you won't see the results come immediately. And for a lot of people that can put them off, you know, because say you're sending out CVs and after two days I've not heard anything back. Therefore It must mean that no one likes me or no one appreciates me or no one appreciates my CV.

But it's like, no, you have to keep doing these things. Same with the job that we work in as well. The effort you put into now, you'll see the rewards come in time. As long as you're putting in that graft for now, it will start to pay off. So remain positive. It's not an easy time for everyone, but. At the same time, flip on his head, that's because it's not an easy time for everyone, that puts us all in the same boat, which gives you more of a chance to engage, connect with each other, discuss your ideas, discuss how to tackle the job market.

To the graduates listening, how can you help each other by providing each other feedback on places you may have had an interview? Can you talk to someone about their CV? Can you talk to someone about an area you're good in? Are you a really skilled Revit technician? Can you help someone or discuss something further?

There's lots of stuff to be doing right now where it might not seem so [00:41:00] immediately beneficial, but remember that the long term goals have to stay in mind. And that's the only way you're going to really crack it and actually be able to stay consistent. But yeah,

Stephen Drew: that's our words

Jack Moran: of wisdom.

Stephen Drew: I love it. I think that whether it is in the analogy of, um, whether it's a guitar or whether it's the gym.

The job search, you've got to think of everything. What we've basically done the last few weeks is kind of lay out a formula, almost like a program, isn't it Jack? But the program lives or dies by someone doing the program or adjusting from it. And exactly like in the gym program or learning guitar, sometimes you kind of plateau and you're like, Oh, I don't feel like I'm getting better.

Or you get a setback and you've got to keep going on. And so, and, and also. Remember, think of like what we've done. It's a program, okay? You're going to freestyle it around you. Some of the things I might say might not apply so much towards yourself. You might have sent a thousand CVs [00:42:00] and go, Steve, what do you want about it?

I sent a thousand. If we go deep down though, What it's about is kind of dissecting into your niche scenario. We might find that the CV is not reading very well or we might find that when you're going for the interview that actually you're not coming across in the best light because on video interviews maybe the attack isn't there or you feel a bit nervous.

No problem, but these are the things that we need to go into. There is no right way, there is no wrong way. But you have to keep pushing on and it's kind of, I like the word reframing and that was actually in a course that I looked at, um, a course that I signed up for to do with the Architecture Social and it was only about community building and it was talking about certain things work, certain things don't and reframing and reframing to me is a bit like in the gym when you hit the plateau or a bit like on the job search where you think like, oh, send everything out and not get feedback and the way you reframe might be that you bring people up, you get feedback.

And they go, [00:43:00] I couldn't load the CV up. It didn't work. And you go, Oh my gosh, I've sent the CV out. It's not working. And then you just actually follow up again and you send a new version and you get past the nervousness. But because you did that and you called, you then work at the next bit. It is the job search really isn't a case of you follow my eight webinars and you will definitely get a job.

The webinars are a good general guide and hopefully imparting my mental process and how to seek a job and how to go through it so that you have the maximum gains. It's a bit like Um, if you sit down with me, um, one on one, and we go through your career, of course I can tell you ins and outs what I think would happen, a bit like mentorship.

But we're not in a position where we can do that right now. But what we can do, this is like a bit of a motivational guide. To give you all the [00:44:00] tools and the ability to go out there, because you all have the ability in yourself to do it, and you can. You just have to go above and beyond, and push yourself.

Like the gym, you've got to feel the burn, and you've got to get feedback. Well, I'm not a big gym goer, so that's something along those lines. I think we should leave it there, rather than go round and round. Um Will, any final thoughts, um, on, uh, gyms and guitars and finance? You've

Will Ridgway: motivated me a little bit to do some exercise.

That's what I've got out of this. I've been staying back and just relaxing whilst enjoying this conversation. It's been motivating me. Yeah, me too. So, it's good.

Stephen Drew: Well, I've got complacent on the gym, but that's the point. It's like, I'm psychologically building myself up and hopefully We'll see, see myself getting skinnier on these things because the, what I don't want to do is more podcasts and I'm out there.

Yeah, it's not

Will Ridgway: going to fit in the frame.

Stephen Drew: Right? Because [00:45:00] then we'd know that I've heard all the advice I've been given programs and I'm not applying them because I'm mentally not dealing with it. So we're all going to mentally deal with everything we got. We're going to deal with the job search. We're going to deal with our own personal goals and hit them head on.

And, and then. Whatever happens, you know you've given it your all. I reckon you'll probably get a good job out of it, and, um, it's like It's depending on the graft though, don't you? You have to do that graft. Yeah, and start now, and that's the thing. Don't beat yourself up about what happened yesterday, having that burger, not playing the guitar, not sending the CVs out, and not sending enough, not asking questions.

Don't do that, just do it now. Even like Amanda

Jack Moran: just wrote in the comments there as well about the um, the feedback topic and I really like that actually. So you don't necessarily have to get feedback from employers, people are friends, people are families that they can show their CV and portfolios to.

Stephen, Will and myself, we are all on socials, we are on LinkedIn, you can reach us on the social. If you ever have any questions [00:46:00] about the search or about your CV and about portfolio, do not hesitate to approach us on LinkedIn. But, you know, we are essentially, we're not mind readers. We don't know if someone's struggling with something if we don't hear about it.

So, like Steve said at the beginning, we are able to advise you on certain things, um, be it, you know, something can deceive you or the portfolio, but also, like Steve said, the best person who's going to help you is yourself. So, you've got to put that graft in now and reap the rewards further down the line.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and because, because the thing is, because we can all be quite busy, you can message me, But, for instance, the Architecture Social, www. architecturesocial. com, it's a community of a thousand, over a thousand people in the same position. And you do get a lot of active people, but why don't you, um, be active as well?

Because the thing is, you can speak to me, but I guarantee you, if we start keeping the community up where we all can speak to each other, you will have 10 to 15 people come back to you. 10 to 15 people who will have an opinion. And [00:47:00] ain't that great? Thank you. Because suddenly by exposing yourself a little bit and being helpful, uh, you're showing your CV and asking for a little bit of help and then maybe helping someone else out, you know, it's that thing of it goes on, you know, someone helps you.

What goes around comes around. Yeah, what goes around, and that works the other way, isn't it? Not helping people and then you being surprised when people don't help you. So maybe going out of your way a little bit. I think that's really cool as well. You know

Jack Moran: them, you know them WhatsApp groups everyone has.

Everyone's on WhatsApp. WhatsApp and everyone's in a group chat of some kind with their friends. What you're saying basically do not be that person who just reads everything and doesn't write everything. 'cause we've all got that person and I know I have that person in my friend's group and they are not very popular.

Same thing with the social, don't just go through and look every at everyone's work. If you like someone's work, tell 'em if you don't like give them some, you know, advice on something. Absolutely. You got, you got to engage. I think engagement is where it starts. That's how growth begins.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and uh, and it doesn't need to be a huge amount.

You don't need to be Mother Teresa. You just need to um, [00:48:00] I think this point is conversation. How, if, yeah, that's a really good example. Oop, I've got the door coming, one second. But, well, can you round up? Why don't you round up one sec? I think Amazon's here. Oh, no.

Will Ridgway: Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, oh, Jack, I can't hear you.

Your mic's gone, Jack.

Jack Moran: It's been on mute. That's why, that's why. Well, I was just going to say that, you know, you know, your biggest, um, your big point you talked about earlier about the whole, um, market knowledge, essentially, you know, people bring them up and how do they start that whole conversation? Where can people find out information?

You know, if someone's not up to date, where's the best place for people to look?

Will Ridgway: The community is a great place. That's why we're trying to get everyone to engage because you find out different things. That's conversation. First of all, you get used to putting yourself out there. And then secondly, as well, you find out things from different people.

Um, [00:49:00] I mean, you can look at zine for example, um, Architecture Journal. They're like easy ones that has every sort of information you want. But it's just about like Googling stuff. Find out, go on Praxis website. See, they have their own news section generally for most practices. So they'll say if they've won a project recently, that sort of stuff.

You know, you can find out from just talking to people. That's the best way to get information. Um, we use it all the time in recruitment. That's the best way we find out information because we speak to people. We don't Google it. We find and speak to people, have conversations. That's the best way to do it, and that's how you have those, um, natural conversations on the phone or even in an interview situation as well.

I love it. It's got it.

Stephen Drew: Marketplace

Will Ridgway: it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah,

Will Ridgway: exactly. It's my

Stephen Drew: mate. It's my mate back on. Is he, yeah? Yeah, you're back. Do what? It was the next door, the Amazon man knocked so loud, I thought it was me, and it was next door. Stephen's got his, uh,

Jack Moran: 39th horn delivered this week.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jack Moran: Ding! Cool. Yeah. So, uh, thank you everyone for joining us.

[00:50:00] Um, do remember if you do have anything you'd wish to ask us, you can reach us all on the architectural social or LinkedIn. I've been your host Jack Moran, with Steven Drew and Will Ridgeway. Hopefully we'll be seeing you guys next week too then. Take care everybody. Thank much everyone. Go

Stephen Drew: out then push in.

See you all later. Bye bye.