Are you on the right salary in Architecture?

0017 - Are you on the right salary?
===

Jack Moran: [00:00:00] Oh, we're live. We are live. It is the 30th of September, Wednesday at five o'clock. I'm your host, Jack Buran. I'm joined by, as always, Stephen Drew and Will Ridgway. How you doing boys? I'm all right. I'm all right, Jack. Good stuff. We are the team at The Architectural Social and we are also the architecture team at McDonald and Company.

So today we've gone for quite an interesting topic. We're going to be dissecting salaries all across the architecture board, understanding your worth and how to go about negotiating salaries. So Stephen Drew. Why don't you tell us a bit more about what made you come across this topic?

Stephen Drew: Right. It's it's always been an interesting subject in no matter what climate we're currently in.

So it just happens that we're in coronavirus as well, which has made things even a little bit more difficult. So there's a few things around salaries. [00:01:00] Now, I always found. And I've been guilty of it as well, especially early in your career. And I joke that it's the British way. But what happens is salaries, it feels like a bit of a taboo.

So now we're at a dinner party because I'm a little bit brash. Sometimes I go, well, what's your salary? Then, in a dinner party, I think a few of your friends would be like, Hey, don't ask him that! That's that's That's very, yeah, that's very rude. Or you might have gone, or as I did before, you go, Well, what do you want to ask that for?

That's a little bit much. What's going on there? You know? That's my private salary. And what's What's funny about it is that over time, Now, you shouldn't be going around on the street going like, I'm on 20k. What are you on or anything like that? We're not on about that. You got to be, you got to be dignified or what I'm talking about is as a professional, it's really good to know your worth and you need to think of [00:02:00] exercises like where am I going to be in 10 years time and what does the responsibilities like that and the salary look accordingly, where am I going to be in five years time?

Okay. Hidden up to that 10 year target. And where am I going to be in one year's time? And where am I now? So it's always important to think about the current salary you're on, or if you're a student, what you should be on and what you should be when you start working. And in a year's time, when you've done a year's worth of work, whether you're on the same and so forth.

So I think that a lot of people do not go for this mental exercise. We kind of subliminally deal with the salary that we've got currently, and we're either really happy with it. Like when I, when I was a part one, I, I happened to have a really good salary in 2009 recession of 20, 000 pounds. And I felt blessed.

I was like, I felt like, like Donald Trump before he was a president. I felt go around, like I had loads, I felt privileged, [00:03:00] privileged because I had another offer at the time for 13, 000, which I was tempted to take. So at that time I felt good and I got a bit relaxed. And what happened is I didn't start thinking about.

My next salary, what am I worth? And so a good example of this on the other side is that then I entered as a part two on a particular salary. I didn't start challenging my, I didn't set up the obstacles in my head ahead, right? I didn't start thinking about. What I want to do next year and more and how much further I will have gone in terms of my experience and alongside it I didn't think well if I'm going to do all this I'm going to be on one to two thousand pound more and what actually happened then.

is that my salary stagnated. Okay. Because I got complacent. You have reviews. You don't bring it up. You don't talk about targets. You don't talk about salary and it slips. And also I remember in the past that [00:04:00] some people would say the review, the review. is not the place to talk about a salary. Okay. This is a review about your responsibilities and how you grow.

And this is not about salaries. And I think that it's the opposite. When you're a professional, you should always be thinking about your salary and the higher your salary goes. The more competent you're going to be at your job, in theory, you'd hope so, right? The salary should kind of go up and up and up in relation to your responsibility.

And that is always the way to phrase salaries. When you're trying to get a salary rise, you don't get a salary rise for doing nothing or the same. You get a salary for Dealing with problems, holding down the thought, progressing, developing, and growing. More responsibility should get paid more. Makes sense, right?

And [00:05:00] my, if that doesn't happen, and your salary stays the same, and you get more and more responsibilities, naturally what happens is you can get frustrated with your current scenario. You've done so much and the salary hasn't gone up. And. The reason why it's important to embrace salaries is because what you don't want to happen, which has happened to me in the past, is you build up this frustration, then that frustration slightly manifests into your job.

You get a little bit nippy sometimes, or you think like, well, I'm not, I'm not doing the extra thing because they don't appreciate me. So the more and more you talk about your salary, and the more and more you benchmark where you are and where you want to go. The better you're going to be at your job and your life quality is going to go up.

Okay, so salaries should always be in relation to responsibility. So what do you, what do you guys think about oh, started off with a bit of a a wise wisdom sermon there, but that's how. I look at salaries and I [00:06:00] never used to look at it before and I don't think many people talked about it. So, Will before we start, this is not the time to ask for a pay rise.

I'm just going to say that out loud. Would you like to give me your thoughts on maybe a slightly different spin on what I'm talking about in terms of, so you've done recruitment for a year and a half. And in architecture and you've spoken to a lot of people, you've helped a lot of people progress their salaries.

You've helped a lot of people talk about their salaries. Do you have any thoughts about what I'm talking about? Do you think a lot of people think about their salaries or? Do they know what they're doing or is there any hangups you see there? I think to be honest, I

Will Ridgway: think a lot of people Look to others for guidance about their salary.

I mean they're not necessarily aware of what salary they should be on For that level of responsibility and it makes things difficult as well because there is no right answer I found because it really does vary between different practices [00:07:00] some practices pay well, some practices pay less, but at the same time, you might have more responsibility at one practice with a specific job title, but the equivalent job title at another practice might have less responsibilities.

So does the salary differ there? It should do. But it, it is really up in the air. I think before before I even came into recruitment, I was also a little bit shy about salary. I'm thinking, well, it's, it's a bit personal, but after doing it for so long at recruitment, that is, I've realized how important it is because it sets you in the mind frame that you said earlier about setting goals and responsibilities.

Cause I think some people aren't always aware that the response, if the responsibilities increase. Then the salary should increase as well. I think people forget that sometimes, and they get a bit too comfortable in the job, and they forget to ask, or they're a little bit shy, or they're just waiting for the salary.

Yeah. Yeah. The wait for the salary to increase on its own, you know, for their boss to [00:08:00] come around and say.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I'm the other one. I know it's this that we all make excuses of you. So there's an interesting one where you're kind of frustrated about the scenario. You say, no, you're in a project and you're really, really knee deep in it.

You're consumed and you're going above and beyond and you feel a little bit underpaid or what's interesting is that people. Almost wait for the project to end to talk about the salary and if that timing doesn't pop up and then they go back into another project, then it's almost like missing that window, then someone gets frustrated and where that can be tricky for, and there's two sides to this, because if there's any employers listening, because we have a few people in the audience, just saying a little shout out if anyone's there, drop a little comment and say hello and or any questions like that, because it's a live stream, we will definitely answer them as we go along.

Now we've seen two sides of the coin as well, Will, haven't we? Where practices, where we work with the employers really closely and some, [00:09:00] maybe some people have left because they've got frustrated with salaries. So it's a two way thing of, it's really important from a, you as, as an architect, architectural professional, to know your worth, to know your salary and to talk about it with your current employer.

And I think that good employers, Embrace talking about salaries. And I think that yes, okay, salaries do cost the bottom line, but a salary increase at the right time of speaking frankly with an employee to set our goals towards a salary is going to save costs because you'll keep the staff longer. You'll keep that member, you'll keep them happy and they won't leave.

And what people forget is that when you leave a job. In in your architectural practice, then someone's gone for that time period and bringing someone up to the speed of that take is cost time and money. And if you have to bring a recruitment consultant involved, then if, [00:10:00] for instance, we are working on it.

There's a, there's a cost involved into introducing people because that's based upon our time as well, you know, with finding someone takes time and that's cost. So, oh, so what I'm trying to say is actually for discussing salaries is the smart move. So Jack bringing you up, so you're on the main screen.

Are you even listening, Jack?

Jack Moran: I was I was actually thinking about your point, Steven. That's very true though. So there is two sides to this topic. And one side, you look at the client side. So Steven, you said that we, you know, we've, we've worked with practices, almost an advisory sort of role where we're talking to them about sort of salary benchmarks.

I think, you know, what practices need to bear in mind is that. People's careers are, you know, fundamental for them. The idea of having a good quality of life involves progressing up through an architecture practice. And with that comes more responsibilities and the salary has [00:11:00] to be reflected in that.

Having said that, I think some people, especially about the graduate level, maybe on the bit of the lower end, the They don't really help themselves when they don't do enough research into, you know, what sort of salaries they should be looking at. So when it comes to the client side, I think the one thing that they could learn on is, is if they, if they do have, you know, recruitment consultancies, although there is a fee involved, usually there can be some degree of advisory comments and they can actually help them get gauge an idea of what the market.

Great. It's like, and I think that that's a definitely a kind of fit.

Stephen Drew: Well, what you're talking about, and it's a good point there. So let's bring us all, let's bring all the team back up. I think you're on about sharing information. So if you run in an architectural practice, it's really good to know whatever architectural practices are paying people and vice versa.

But more importantly. It's really tricky right now if you are a job seeker or you are a graduate looking to know what your worth is, and there's a few reasons for that, and we [00:12:00] talked upon them a bit, and I feel passionately about this, haven't seen a few sides of the coin, so if you, if you are looking for a job right now, and or you're looking to move, then typically if you want to find out a salary, You Google it, right?

So what does everyone do? Should we do it live? Let's do this live. Okay, on this height. So I'm going to share my screen. This is the part where Jack thinks I'm going to have a meltdown and he's 50, 50 percent chance he could be correct. Oh, hello. Ah, it's working. Right. Okay. So what you'll do is, you'll get the keyboard that's here.

See these are the keys. Architectural salary guide. Architecture salary guide. Or if you're an architect, you've got architect salary guide. Yeah? And you'll have some stuff that pops up. And it's, you've got all these links here. I've gone through a few, and you've got to kind of find in this madness, where good information is now.

Let's let's [00:13:00] talk about this. Be real, gentlemen, because we we we've we've seen it all. So some so the salary guides, you've got to think about what information is being pumped into these. Right. So there's an old saying in I. T. called garbage in. Garbage out. Okay. So you need to make sure that where's the source of all this information?

Okay. What's going into the salary guide? Who's put it there? How accurate is it? Or has there even been a salary survey or is it plucked out from John in the corner? Like John, what do you think a BIM coordinator is? John, what's the BIMCO on there? I don't know, 35 grand, something like that? Yeah, that'll do.

What's for 35 pence? Right, whacked out, and then put a bit of marketing. Seriously, that can happen. So take my word for it. [00:14:00] So, Or, in a less dramatic sense, what you'll have is you'll have some people in the office and they'll go, What do you think, based upon all the roles you've seen, the salaries are for this role?

What do you think they are? And you'll have a bunch of people in the office go, Oh, I think this an architect that's recently qualified is on 34, 35, 36. Okay, but that is so wild, there is so much information in there, which is, which could completely vary. So, sectors, software, location, that is a big impact.

If you're an architect in Manchester, as much as I love Manchester, and as much as I love the pleasures of the North, Okay, you get paid more in London. Yeah, if you're using software that is more desirable, Revit, you're going to get a good competitive rate. And what I mean by that is you're going to get a fair salary.

If you don't have Revit, it might go the other way where you're slightly [00:15:00] lower because you, you're seeing that you need to be brought up to space. You need to be brought up and that's going to cost time and money. potentially, right? There's loads of other factors on it. It could be that there's less people in data centers.

Therefore, the, there's a slightly higher salary. And so what you find is that these trends have changed over time, but generally salary follows. company culture and your skill set and ability. Okay. And there's usually a typical bracket in the company. And what you'll find is as well, that people who are bold and ask for salaries and push really hard and job run and push and talk about taking more responsibilities and.

Talk about taking more salaries. They talk about increasing their salaries and reviews. They will creep up higher salaries than you. So it's quite inconsistent [00:16:00] out there. And so all that information, you got to think about how do you instill it in a document? So there's one I like, which is nine B's careers.

And you've got the Reba salary survey as well, but 9B's career is look, why it is a good salary survey is when you've got good information, but even then it's quite hard to dissect. So, A partner or associate, the average of them is 75, 000. They're saying, okay, cool. Project architect, the average is about 41, 000.

That was in 2019 or 2000 people that took the salary survey. Great. We're learning and look, he's comparing it to the year before. This is interesting information that you can dissect. This is the kind of information that I would be keen on and think of it like a tool. Think of it like a resource. There's going to be other ones out there.

Now, ironically, since the guy who's left Reba Appointments, now [00:17:00] Reba Recruitment's gone, it's effectively a job board. Their salary survey isn't as strong as 9B Korea's. So this is my favorite salary survey out there currently. Okay. And I think it's probably a really good one. Now we actually at McDonald and company have a good salary guide.

The only downside is that because McDonald company, we deal with a lot of sectors and we are predominantly, while we have a strong architecture team, we're multidisciplinary and we come from real estate. as well. So with official recruitment partner for the RACS. And what that means is a lot of people, a lot of surveyors fill in that salary guide and they, and therefore there's less less architects.

So I think one of the things we'll talk about in a bit is about what we're going to do guys. So now next step, here's the report and here's the key findings from 2019. But we, I really want to [00:18:00] kind of go into talking a bit about what we can do in terms of making things clearer. So I think what would be really handy on salary surveys out there is if we can slightly start dissecting into location, how many years responsibility, the sectors and the software.

Okay, so we've got a good, we know what's good about what we've done is we know how to do a good salary survey. We just need to do it for architecture now. Okay, so that's what we're going to do. Well, I expect that on my, on my. I expect that on my desk, Monday morning, please. Thank you very much. Monday morning.

Okay. Spotlight on you. Jack. Not time to ask for salaries. You're gone. All right now. We're in the background. You're not gone forever, Jack. You're promoted to, you're promoted with no salary increase. No salary. Sorry. He said no salary increase. I'm going to leave Jack. Thanks for my advice. Yeah. So, Will.

What do you think about what I talked about in terms of the [00:19:00] quality of salary guides out there? Yeah. Do you also think that some are a bit flaky and some are stronger?

Will Ridgway: I think so as well. You always have to with everything, with everything, you know, even beyond architecture, you always got to, if you get any information, whether it's from a newspaper or anything, you've got to find out where the source comes from.

And that's the most important thing because anyone can say anything to you and seem like it's been from a reputable source when it's not. So that's why it's important to find out if people have actually been asked about it as opposed to someone guessing based on, you know, their assumption, their experience of placing people.

And in addition to that, the sample size as well, because there's no good having a salary survey of, let's say, I think 300, 400 people because it's not enough. Particularly as well if you're covering a large range of roles, because then you're only getting really small sample size for each specific role.

So that's why the bigger, the bigger it is, the [00:20:00] better

Stephen Drew: in terms of sample size. I think you're onto something. And the other thing that could work is that even if maybe if there was lower numbers, what would be helpful is Project architects in the ag 100 saying their salaries is going to be more accurate in that demographic in London.

So if there is smaller samples, then you almost need to be able to access that information. So we need to do something about that. So what are we going to, well, okay, I've got an idea, right. Harmonica time.

That sounds like

Jack Moran: an

Stephen Drew: idea that was, oh, the come on a Monica. I thought you're going to give a bit of sample after that. Oh, I don't think my harmonica is very good. We've lost like two people in the feeds. That's not good. I have to bring the power back. So what I think is we need to do is make a better salary.

So there needs to be a [00:21:00] bit more clarity in salaries. So I think we're going to have a little look at how we're going to do that. And it's going back to you. Anyone that is currently looking right now, what I would do is when you, I would look at several salary guides out there and realize or try to work out which ones come from quantity data.

Probably you're going to find that anything which of us has a salary survey is going to be more relevant and saying that whenever you're going for a pay rise or you're going into a job, it is always good to be well informed. Do feel free to refer to guides, especially if they have quantitative information attached, you will find that basically any information that was attached to the reaver or anything official like that is going to be helpful as a starting point, but the more and more you can get intelligent information, the better.

Do feel free to ask people. I know it's awkward, but it's helpful to ask other [00:22:00] people and their responsibilities, your salaries. Okay. Employee is not going to be thrilled with you asking someone else potentially, but it happens when you, when you're down the pub or anything like that, after work, sharing salaries is kind of something that does happen all the time.

We'll stop hogging the limelight. Okay. Yeah, I'll come back. So what I would, what I would do is definitely always try to find out that information on the line and when you're building yourself up to a salary review, have them to hand know you with and even then you should always be in theory challenging what you do.

More responsibilities with higher salaries. If you're not, and you've been on a salary for a few years, you have to think about why that is. Is it because you haven't been doing more responsibilities? Is it because of the company, there is no scope for a higher salary? Have a think about it and be really brutal and really honest about it.

And then you can kind of [00:23:00] dissect and work out what you need to do. So that is a general rule of thumb. Now, as another scenario, because we were in coronavirus, okay, coronavirus world, we're not in the coronavirus, sorry, we're, we're in and around coronavirus, and this has caused stability per se, to go out the window.

Right. So suddenly what I'm on about is, so you know, there's a, always been a trajectory of salaries, a typical part one salary on top of my head would be 20 to 23, 24 grand somewhere around that part two will be 28 on the lower end. Now, my opinion up to something like 30 to 32, see what I'm doing though, right.

What's your source? Yeah. That's it. That's it. I'm plucking things off my head. So remember, you've got to remember it's me saying this and the sample is Steve Drew plucking off the top of his [00:24:00] dog, this stuff. How do you quantify that? How do you challenge that? How do you go for it? But you'll see that there will be a, there will be a trajectory of salaries.

And right now, coronavirus, everything's gone a bit squiff. I mean I've been on furlough for a few months. I'm working now, what, four days a week? Will and Jack, you're both working two and a half days. I mean, the idea is it's scaling up. There are certain things which kind of makes the salary fluke.

It's kind of going a bit random. So what I would encourage anyone to do when talking about salaries is be open minded to current scenarios, but talk about it in a bigger picture. Okay, if someone at a practice can offer you decent work and responsibilities, okay, you're not, you shouldn't work for free.

You need to basically make sure that there's a structure there. We'll stop laughing. Let's just take our time to do it. [00:25:00] Another two views gone. Harmonica, yes. The harmonica is not impressed. Angry harmonica. I'm watching you. Okay, so, Will, I can't remember what my thoughts was now, I've forgotten about it.

This harmonica's not working. Put me

Jack Moran: in the spotlight, Steve, and I want to pick up from what you're talking about, because you were, you're basically talking about the idea of stability in the, in the coronavirus world. Oh yeah, yeah. And the trajectory of going up. Oh yeah,

Stephen Drew: let me, let me,

Jack Moran: let me finish my trailer forward, because I'm getting

Stephen Drew: there.

Jack Moran: Put yourself back in the big, in the hot seat. spot. So you people can so

Stephen Drew: within what you want to do is you want to, you, you basically want to talk about the next two or three steps. So you go, look right now, I understand things are tough. If you struggle, I think my work is 35, 000. I know that for X, Y, Z.

I was on 33 before I am looking for a role. I'm happy to talk about, for six months, we [00:26:00] work at a salary we both think is fair to tide over. And in six months we talk about a salary review based upon the current ecosystem, based upon coronavirus. That is much more of a real scenario. in a real frank conversation, which is going to get you work experience and keep you ticking along.

But then you also in, in your employer's mind, you put in, you put in their, in their brain, you put in their noggin that you're very conscious of them. Yeah. That now I've seen a few examples of people holding out for salaries. And the danger is that every month you're not working, you're probably hemorrhaging two, 3000 pounds.

Okay. So if you're fighting for two grand, And you're not working for one month, you're down two grand. Anyways, you're no longer on 35 grand per year. You're now making 32 grand per year because you worked 11 years of the calendar year. You get where I'm coming from? Every time you're unemployed, you're [00:27:00] not bringing a salary.

It's a big fat zero on the 12 months of the years that you're working. So you've got to think the balance between being proactive and going forward, and the experience you've got. So the whole world is crumbling down around us. Or it feels. But there is definitely some light gems there. There are people winning work and you might find a good example is I have a contractor right now.

I looked on the company and his rate is lower, but the company had a frank conversation and said, this is as far as we can pay right now. And we will look back on the salary. And because that individual. The senior architect was very level headed. He kind of said, well, this is not where I feel I'm worth, but I understand you're stretched and I need to work.

So let's do it at the lower rate for now. And let's have a conversation in three months time. And we'll keep that miniature [00:28:00] conversations per week. So, I mean, if the company keeps you at a lower rate and they start winning work and hiring people and you're on that lower rate, you're not going to stick around.

So we gotta be, you gotta think about the realities of it and talk about it in a grown up way. We've got, we're all working through this together. It's unprecedented times, as everyone says. I hate that saying, but what you can deduct from it is that we all kind of figure it out as we go along. And I am by far I'm definitely by far, I'm not saying that you should, if you were a part three, you should be working on a part one salary, mean how the ransom think about it.

Like you're entrepreneurial. Think about it. Like you're a business. Think about it. Like times are tough. And right now we've got to slightly, we've got to, by keeping money in the door, you go slightly lower, but you retain your value. You say I'm doing this because I like you as a company. My plan is to go back up when you get there.

[00:29:00] Now that is not underselling yourself. That is being reasonable with the times. I'm talking about if you are currently unemployed, right? I'm talking about you moving on. The key bit I'm trying to say. is that you reinforce the salary in their heads, what you should be. And then you also speak to the employer and you say, look, in six months time, if we can't get a figure on the salary, I'm going to be, have to be looking elsewhere for the salary that's in line with what I'm talking about.

You get where I'm coming from. So it's like, you're basically, you always know your worth, you research your worth, you tell the employer your worth, and you aim for that worth. And hopefully you get it. And if in the coronavirus madness, that's not quite the case, then be flexible. Because being unflexible right now, sadly [00:30:00] means.

That if someone is slightly more flexible than you, you could lose it, you could lose that opportunity. And it's very, very competitive at the moment. Okay. There are a lot of people looking, a lot of very good people looking, and I've got to be the guy that tells it to you like it is, and doesn't always tell you everything.

You want to hear, hopefully, you, you understand why I'm saying it. And so what I'm saying is, know your worth, aim for your worth. By all means go for it and get it. I'm sure that you've got all opportunities to get it. What I'm saying is the chips are down in construction. Okay. We're on the back foot.

Coronavirus is here. We just talked about it being for six months. Okay. I [00:31:00] have, there, there is absolutely anyone that tells you it's going to be all hunky dory tomorrow. Come back, guys. Come back. Back in. You know, it's like the dinner lady, isn't it? That ain't, that ain't happening. That ain't happening. And if you've got a job right now, retain it.

Still talk about your salary. Still talk about your goals. Still talk about where you want to go. What I'm on about is, know your worth. And think about it objectively. Think about it like, do I hold out and I wait and get unpaid for a month two, or do I talk to 'em about in two, three months I'm expecting this salary?

And we keep reviewing it. And in the short term, I'll, I'll, we we, we'll meet in the middle. Well, I'm gonna flip this ball right to you. I was gonna say, you're gonna pull me up in the big screen. Oh, I felt dramatic there, I was getting a little, was that, I was getting, was it, but sometimes we've got to flick between [00:32:00] being serious or not and it's a bit of a scary time and I absolutely get worried about the idea of someone waiting in the wind for the ideal salary.

Not that they're not worth it and I've got to be careful of what I'm saying. Know your worth. If you can't get it quite right now, think about it like. If I get this experience and I keep telling the employer what I'm worth and what I'm looking for, and I assess the work that's coming in, and I assess the climate, we'll take it one step at a time.

Well, I'm getting a sore throat. Do you want to? Yeah, I mean

Will Ridgway: it, what I would say is much, much easier to get a salary increase once you're already employed. Than it is to do it from the outset before coming into a new job because you, you know, you start to build relationships there. You start to get on well with everyone, your responsibilities you're doing them [00:33:00] potentially having more as well.

And so that becomes more and more reason to get a salary increase. So it can be quite difficult to get the salary you want necessarily right at the beginning. But I always say that salary is always. flexible. It's the thing that changes the most in any job and you have much more chance of making a change once you're already there.

And I think it's important to remember that if you are out of a job and you choose not to go to somewhere. Not to not to go to this particular job because the salary is two grand less than what works for you or what you think you're worth. Then not only do you miss out on let's say, let's say you spend another month or two looking again, not only do you miss out money in that sense, but you also miss out on not growing responsibilities and becoming more.

More worth what's the word? What's the word? More valuable to the companies because you've gained the experience as you go along in that three months time where you might have a salary review, you've gained three months [00:34:00] more experience. And so you're actually worth more than what you were before at the beginning, just before you joined the job.

And that's why the experience. completely our ways. And it's really important to be upfront with your boss. I would like to have a review in three months time and we can go from there really, you know, there's, there's no, there's no pressure. There's no pressure for the boss to say, Oh, if he wants an increase, then I'm going to shut down completely.

We're all adults about this. We can all be professional and helpful at the same time. And I think it's important to have, be honest and have that frank chat with them, because if it goes. If it is in the background, you never ask about anything like this, and then you become unhappy, but at the same time you're not asking for it.

Then they can't help you out, and that's why it's important to be honest, so you two can get on well with each other and make it work for both parties.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and think of it, this is not like a cowboy standoff where you're shooting each other down, you know, this is it's, because you almost in your head [00:35:00] build it up to be like a fight, and it's really not, it's talking about what works for you both.

Now I'm going to do one or two shout outs because some people have made some comments and Sam really appreciate what you said. So let's see what Sam says. Sam says, I would never undersell myself. I have confidence in your salary and ask for I have confidence in the salary you asked for, but you need to be realistic.

Well said. Read this out of the service free area. Completely agree, Sam. And then Sam also says, that being said, any work is better than no work at this time, so be realistic in your approach. Boom. I think that is a very fair and credible point of view. And let's see. So Elizabeth asks. What are the skills that will increase my salary?

I'm a part one at the moment. So, Elizabeth, it's a, we have to dissect that a little bit off the top in terms of thinking about out loud. More experience on job running [00:36:00] and technical detailing, anything like learning software, understanding the company, going the extra mile, learning more about how a building's built and basically helping out the team.

Becoming a key member in the team and taking more responsibilities is the short way to increase your salary. If you part, because what we're talking about here is you're helping the company out more. You're decreasing the burden on them. And then in that case, because you're decreasing the burden, then you should be renumerated in, in lights in comparison to the, the, the, the extra responsibility you're doing.

So that would be my approach. So we've got. I think as

Will Ridgway: well, sorry, Steve, as well. I think ask your boss. You know, you say, I think I've done really well the responsibilities I have at the moment. What can I do? So what other responsibilities can I take on now? Or what do you think I'm ready for?

You know, you can go that route and find out directly from the person. You're working under find [00:37:00] out how you can improve yourself because it will differ between different practices. And that way it works well for each particular role, whether you're part one or part two project architect, find out what more you can do.

And then that gives you a goal of where to aim for in the next six months, which is then when you would ask. Or have that salary review on maybe a year, depending

Stephen Drew: on circumstances. I love it. We've actually got an answer from the crowd towards Elizabeth as well, which would be a great one. Take the burden off.

That was good to get different comparisons really. And my, my throat's burning up. So that's why I'm on about the burden. My throat saying, Steve, you need to stop talking. So Sam, Sam says he is a three year qualified architect. a VR coordinator for his practice. So if he's looking for take the edge, if you're looking to take the edge, look into the first phase skills then do something like that.

It's cool. So what he's on about is that I think Sam saying, and it makes sense, right? He stood up. He offered value to the practice. He didn't VR coordination. It's a skill not everyone uses. That's a really good [00:38:00] point. Kind of learning a niche or learning, helping out the practice diversify. If you're adding value to the practice and they're winning work or They're saving time.

They're saving energy and they become a more efficient the back of what you're doing, then you're making yourself more valuable. And if you're more valuable, you should not be shy about saying that you are more valuable and therefore you should be renumerated more. So Paul actually. talks kindly about his story, which I find really interesting.

And remember what we offer is that I offer you my opinion, my genuine opinion based upon working in industry and working in recruitment. And you have to like, we're talking about the salary guides and speaking to the people, the more and more you speak to other people about this stuff, the more and more your decision is going to be informed.

So Paul talks about a time before. When he became unemployed in 94 Italian recessions, caught by an agent and started a Monday in the architect's office at supermarket wages. That was the beginning of his career. That was the foot in the door. Supermarket wages. Yeah. It's a bit of a [00:39:00] kick it because that's the thing you can study for so long and you feel like you're going to get your worth, but then a little bit like what Will said is that sometimes it's that experience that you gain in there.

Which quickly means that your salary goes up. It was the best move Paul ever made. The six months of failing to cover a student's debt led him to double his pay in the job he wanted. As has been said, continuity is key, but I also think in terms of stepping stones, really appreciate your insight, Paul.

Massively appreciate it, and I think If I could,

Jack Moran: I want to jump in here, Steve, actually. You're not going to ask for a raise here. No, no, but I was really, I really like because we'll touch on it as well quite well. So you look at like graduates, right? The, how they, what they can take from that is essentially like you said, Steve, it's coronavirus world.

You might, you might not get the salary you want. Yeah. You have to be realistic about it. At the same time, you have to have a spine and you have to, you know, understand your worth and responsibilities. Yeah. What we was also touching on as well is Everyone, you know, is so defined by their wages. We all feel so defined [00:40:00] by the amount of numbers on our, you know, on our check at the end of the month.

Essentially, the higher the number goes, the more value you feel like you have and worth. But what about those who, you know, are actually passionate about architecture and enjoy designing it and enjoy producing good technical detailing. Like Will said, they need to understand that the experience right now could almost be more valuable than the actual salary itself.

So even down, even down like the senior end. So if you've got senior lead designers who might have, you know, unfortunately faced redundancy from one company, maybe the sector that practice work in has, you know, exhibited. really low activity, but then they have to go to another place and they have to step down.

I don't know X amount of money. That would be, it would be the same argument though, wouldn't it? But I do not let your, do not yet your salary be, you know, the definition of your architecture career because architecture is all about visualization, design and a passion for it as well. And I understand salaries have to be, You know, fundamental to the degree, because we will have things, you know, like you said, Steven, your pemberton to 3000 pound a month, you're going to need money to cover [00:41:00] it.

We all have financial responsibilities and it's so easy to say, like, you know, don't care about the salary because it's just not true. But what I would say to people is just. You know, you're in architecture for a reason. You know, last week we spoke about Steven, the sort of why people go into architecture and, you know, what makes them stay in architecture.

So I just say, yeah, try not to let your salary, because it will, you know, it will come back here after, hopefully, you know, if there is a light at the end of this tunnel after the coronavirus world, things are going to improve. So if you really, you know, if Yeah, you know, try not to be defined by it.

That's all I'd say. And Stephen's now going to give us his, I've got, I've got MS Paint app. He's got to play hangman.

Stephen Drew: My degree in architecture is well paying off right now. But I really like what, what you boys were saying there. And when you were saying Jack, I was thinking in my head, because you've got to think right, the more and more experience you have Over your careers, you know, you're going to get well, you're not going to go down, but sometimes you're going to, you know, you feel like a dead end.

The idea is you want to, we talked about the 10 year goal, right? You want [00:42:00] to be up there. And so you've got to kind of keep getting your career going up this way. Something happens there or you lose a job and it flatlines. And then you kind of go back up and you want to get to that point in your career, right?

You kind of loosely want to make sure that your salary follows it. Now, what I'm trying to talk about as a concept is the two should. Correlate. Okay. Now what Jack's on about is the more and more experience you get. Yeah. The more and more it goes up. Now, if you suddenly like stop getting experience, the point is you're, you're now, if you stop again, experience you're flatlining.

And then your salary. Oh, boys, I've messed up. There you go. Yeah, if you flatline, oh, sorry, it's Finn now. I can see you're waiting until recruitment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hang on. Next time I'll bring out a dull Photoshop, well, of Illustrator. But I got a bit flustered on here, and I panicked. So what I'm on about is the two [00:43:00] correlate and what's, what Jack's on about is say now you, when you, when you, your experience flatlines and the salary kind of loosely flatlines beyond there, but there's sometimes in life, you'll find that maybe your salary flatlines down here, and then you've got to really like talk to your employer and say, I've gone all this way.

Yeah. And my salary is like that and it should be in line. It should be up here. Yeah. So you've got to constantly bring them up. But the salary, it's very rare in real life that someone's, this doesn't happen much where the salary goes off and the experience stays the same. It doesn't. You might marginally over like a few years, get a grand or so more, but what I'm talking about in that really, can you imagine if someone's zooming in right now to this paint thing and they're thinking, what on earth is he on about?

So this one is. experience, Mulan's money, [00:44:00] Mulan's will. There you go. So what I want you to think about is that I'm going to get rid of this before we lose more. Oh, oh, a person's left already quick. Hide the graphs, boys. Hide the graphs, hide the graphs,

Jack Moran: hide the graphs. Okay. So. But it is a valid point that we're going on about though, isn't it? Because it's not, it's, it's, it's, could you quantify experience as like a value? You know how like you, you know, money is defined by X amount of month, but with experience, it's very valuable. So you almost want to quantify and put it in a measurement as to,

Stephen Drew: yeah, you got to think about it, right.

It's really hard to ask for more salary if your experience or your professional ability hasn't increased. Because you're going to have less of an argument for it. So the best way to take control of your salary is to find to gain more experience. If you suddenly work out that you're if you do research and your salary is not in [00:45:00] line with your current experience because you're under, then that's where having, finding out from other companies.

Or resources online that actually for what you're doing, you should be paid more. Okay. But that, what we're, what we're talking about is. that in the kind of the graph, oops, because sorry, the camera is looking the wrong way. You need to be at this level here to get that salary. You know, if you're there, then you can bring it up.

And then if you want to, the way you get your salary up, it's very hard to get your salary up, but doing the same. So you constantly need to do more. And that is basically like going through management or going through the key, the key areas. So Always be thinking, always be thinking how you can increase your worth.

And then when you feel like you've got enough information on, and you feel like you can justify your value, then ask for a higher salary, don't get frustrated to the point where you then end up leaving because of it, because then it's almost too late. And then, [00:46:00] and sometimes, yes, you can start somewhere else and get a bit of a higher salary.

But I really like Will's thoughts. You got to remember when someone, I mean, there's a few companies, I mean, it's human, we're human beings, some companies, the salary doesn't increase past the point and you have to make the brave decision to leave. And in that circumstance, research is going to be your key friend and you're going to have, you're going to feel confident that you're leaving for a good reason, but don't be a motive and kind of leave on the spot because.

What you realize is sometimes grass isn't greener elsewhere, and when you've just got somewhere, it's very harder. You've gotta prove your worth, and sometimes as well be conscious of jumping elsewhere, which is a phenomenally higher salary. Or the, the, if the responsibilities are not realistic to what you've got, pardon me, you will, if you, you can almost set yourself up for failure.

So the, the, the smart thing is identify if you're being underpaid and correcting. You want to be paid more, then [00:47:00] take more responsibility and kind of keep getting that balance and to keep getting the graph going up on my theory, we'll call it the architecture social, the, the Will Moran Drew theory of recruitment yeah, Will Moran Jack Will Jack.

Oh, I, I don't know. Okay. The, the theory one about is I think there's a correlation between experience and be conscious about correcting it, be conscious about bringing up to your employer. And I think, remember if you add in value to the company or you're asking to do more value and the return, get a salary, then that is being a professional.

That is what being a professional is. And I think the quicker we realize that. then the better it is. Now, what I'm saying is not going to be easy and you're going to get in the room and feel really awkward about it, but it's like riding the bike. It's like everything else. The more and more [00:48:00] you, you think about it logically and you break it down.

Practically think about it like a return on investment. Think about it. Like if you get a higher salary, what are you adding back? And if you break it down like that, then suddenly it's not such a terrible ask. And the more and more you have these kinds of difficult conversations, the more comfortable you will be.

Now, what I'm saying is you shouldn't be every month asking your employer to go up on the salary, because you're going to drive the mad, but realistic goals in one year review, six months review. Something like that, or a new six months review. You say in a year, I'll have done a year more. I've led this project and we really need to talk about where I'm going in the company, my remuneration and the responsibilities involved.

I'm enjoying it. I can't wait to do the next steps. I've just done this project, super keen, learned so much. I want to go the next step and I want to work here a long time. And. In return, and I have to be upfront, London's expensive. I want a comfortable life. [00:49:00] I've gone the extra mile. I've done research and I would be very comfortable with a 3000 pound increase and in return, I am looking forward to leading the next big project.

I'm looking forward to taking on more responsibility. I'm happy to train up that part one. I'm happy to do a CPD to the group. I'm happy to be part of the family. I'm happy to go the extra mile. And, you know, I want to make myself a family, yeah? And, and to do that, let's talk about salary we feel is fair along that.

There you go. Okay. So, that was me thinking on the spot. What I'm talking about is like a human conversation. In line with responsibilities. That's a lot better then. No eye contact Jack? Yeah, I was looking online and I think you haven't been paying me for the last year enough and I'm not happy anymore.

You like are you, are you sure? 'cause you don't sound sure of it yourself? Yeah. Or you like unhappy? What are you saying? That you are unhappy? Yeah. Do you wanna stay? Do you want to go? Do you what? What salary? Where did you get that? It's, you know, that it is completely [00:50:00] difficult, but what I'm on about is you can't, you, you have to be open and you have to try to be undefensive and you have to tackle the elephant in the room and you have to talk about it.

And I think the quicker you do that, it's like handing your job in the idea of breaking up with someone or the idea of it's an awful thing or the idea of asking for salary, it almost feels slightly improper and, but it's not, it's being a professional.

Jack Moran: Bring up Sam Hall's second last comment regarding it.

It's good. It's a

Stephen Drew: really good summary. So it's, I would say the hardest conversation by far is the chat about money with directors. We are not used to having these conversations. I 100 percent agree with what you're saying. Yep, Sam, you're right. I've been there myself. You, you, it feels awkward. It feels wrong.

Jack Moran: You feel? Yeah, I was gonna say almost wrong, doesn't it? Yeah. It feels like you feel out line, you feel like you're

Will Ridgway: in

Jack Moran: convening,

Will Ridgway: Inconvenient. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: By

Will Ridgway: saying, yeah, can I have more money? [00:51:00]

Stephen Drew: Oh, rude is the word I feel like, and I think, I wonder if that's because we build it up in our heads when actually having run a business myself.

These things do happen and they expect it just, you got to be realistic. If you've worked, if you busted your guts, then, you know, you got a right to ask for it, but you need to bust your guts. If you're the guy on the, you know, on the iPod in the corner. And it's not in chat, it's not engaged or kind of goes like, yeah, right.

Foster the partners are so good to be here. Or you're like, yeah, right. I'd like with us. Oh, McDonald company. That kind of attitude is infectious in the worst sense. And that will go against you because you're not engaged with the company brand. You're not interested in pushing it forward. And. What the companies are looking for is team players and someone that's on board and that will get the [00:52:00] salary higher.

So Sam, it's easy to just ask them, but you need to be confident. Go in the chat with your evidence of why you deserve the rise. Yes, let's not. And I would say be confident and there's nothing wrong with being confident. There's a big difference between being confident and, being defensive or being aggressive.

You know, there's, there's something about being humble and confident. I would like to stress the word humble by being confident, feel like you deserve the conversation, but be Frank. And, and when Sam's on about doing your research, then you're informed and you can make a good point of it. So that's my thoughts on that guys.

I think that kind of like covers a lot of it. Now, I'm quite happy we're leaving it there. What I think if there's anyone listening that's got a kind of a question on this subject, then let's go for it. Kind of had a bit of a serious tone today, or I don't know whether it's that I'm having a bad day with my computer's not working and all that crazy stuff, Will, and [00:53:00] my little Yellow drama.

I try to wear a nice t shirt to brighten the mood up.

Jack Moran: I think a lot of people can benefit from this though, can't they? Because maybe they don't get to talk about this so much, you know, with other people, like minded people. But, you know, if they join something like thearchitecturesocial. com where they could discover, you know, the world's most engaged architectural community ever, Then they might be able to have, you know, it's such an easier conversation.

Oh, it's almost, it's almost like you are at the www. architecturalsocial. com the most engaged architectural

Stephen Drew: social in the world. Oh my God, that does sound good. Put it this way, Jack, when we get working full time again, and things are swaying and normal, I am absolutely up for a pay rise, but we're kind of, I can't

Jack Moran: wait to have the conversation with you Steve. You're going to refer to this episode. I'm just episode. And I'll go,

Stephen Drew: oh yeah, your experience has gone up. Oh, here you go. Have a grand. Don't rub it in

Jack Moran: my face. I'm glad we covered it though, because it is, like you said, a taboo subject and it is taking you out of your comfort zone.

But, like with [00:54:00] most things in life, if you don't take yourself out of your comfort zone, then you cannot progress. And if you don't ask, you don't get. It's that old saying.

Stephen Drew: I agree and so what I'm going to do over the next week or two is that we're going to do our own salary survey on the Architecture Social.

I kind of briefly talked to Will about it today. Jack, I didn't talk to you about it so I'll Tell you live what I'm thinking is that I really like some of what 9b careers does with with her. I think factual data is really keen and I think with read appointments is really good. So what I'm going to do is to look for creating an interactive salary survey.

And what we'll do is two levels on there, which is what I'm thinking. Whether the finished article or not is going to be this, we'll see, but there's a level where you could, for instance, Jack could put in your salary as an architect and you could indicate that you're on 34, 000 and the next level, when all the information is confidential, but if you could put your LinkedIn for it to be confirmed and something like [00:55:00] that, if we can somehow confirm the data, Then that's a richer source of information.

Jack Moran: I see what you're at. So you essentially take information, but have a very reliable source. Oh confidential, which no one sees

Stephen Drew: online. But what I'm saying is it's really handy if you, Jack Moran, submit your information, you submit your salary, and on LinkedIn, I can verify where you're at, and therefore we can then say that you're at a large recruitment company of a hundred people and your salary as a recruitment consultant is X.

Okay, that is much more interesting and the way I see it then is if we could verify that a part two working in the AJ100 and is using Revit at this practice that is X amount. I think then we're going to start visualizing this data and it's going to be. Really, really useful.

Jack Moran: That's really handy, actually, because I think that's the big thing with a lot of surveys that are out there now is essentially there's not enough [00:56:00] information as to where this information has come from.

It's not validated. You know, it could necessarily just be a very, you know, big guess. No one really knows, do they? So I like the idea of sort of trying to get that information, but also back up the verification so people actually know it's not a guesstimate, it's not rounded up to anything. Here is the information in black and white, and people can you know, that I think that'd be very helpful to, to people in, especially like the, in the, you know, the London architecture market.

There's a great idea.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And then we had one more question come in. I'm not going to put the name on this screen. Cause I thought the name was a bit controversial. If you've had a salary cut and you're disappointed and you were promised a pay rise. You have to be really level headed about the scenario and the company.

I would always encourage you to, before you go, say, because what you're talking about is, I've had a 20 percent pay cut. Should I stay or should I go? Should I stay or should I go? Where are you going to go? So [00:57:00] you need to find out first where you're going to go. Don't be the guy that just hands you a notice and then goes, I am off, Jack, I am fed up with all this stuff and I'm off.

And then you go, all right, okay, wow, that was next. And then you go, where am I going to? What next? You need a game plan, don't you? There's so many jobs out there, but I think you have to bring it up with the company and just say, look, when we need to, we need to just keep talking about this pay rise has been promised when the goalposts of coronavirus get improved.

And if you're that frustrated with it. 1986 can't say the rest of your name, then what you need to do is you need to basically start looking elsewhere and kind of work out if there's a real job to go to and see if there's any jobs out there with the salary you're looking for. And if there is, go for an interview cause we're all grownups and, and see if there's an opportunity there, but do not hand your notice in without having anywhere to go to.

So, yeah, on that [00:58:00] note. We'll leave it there. The other architectural announcement is, so we're going to work on the salary survey and I think next week we're going to look at a little bit more of a fun format where we're going to talk about current trends of the week that could be involved in coronavirus.

I'm going to start looking at, I think we need a bit of good news. We need a bit of good news right now. So let's talk about some schemes which we think are really awesome or practices that have done that. Any trends, we'll talk about any recruitment jobs that we have on as well. And we'll talk about some of the events in the Architecture Social.

We, lastly, yesterday on the Architecture Social, I'll put the banner up again if you haven't joined. You will find in depth all the, all the guides that we've done about, from everything about looking for a job to accepting a job position. There are workshops on there and yesterday we have a book club, Jack, and it was actually quite accessible and I enjoyed it.

It keeps growing, doesn't it? It's almost, you know, like it is the most engaged architectural social in the world. Yeah, there we go. I think it's 1, 700 people now, so come on, get [00:59:00] involved, join in. The people that get involved and talk with each other are the ones that are going to succeed. Why not ask people there what salaries there are and talk about your responsibilities?

Hey, why not, right?

Jack Moran: And there's a

Stephen Drew: range of people, isn't there? It's not just graduates. We've got a lot of senior people in there now in positions, so And employers. Employers, you know, there's a few roles on there. Actually, there's a few jobs there. There's a few. There's just a few. Like anywhere else, there's a bit less jobs right now.

But I think you see that I see that it will change. Sorry. 1986. I was just teasing you. I think that it's funny. It's great. I just can't bring it on the, on the screen. Do not worry about your own YouTube name. It's made me laugh. I just can't put it on the screen in case you do ban me. Thank you so much.

1986. You know what Sam Hall, Paul Foster, Elizabeth for your question, Maria as well. I appreciate that. You did ask a question about [01:00:00] how much of a reduction is reasonable in COVID. I hope that when we talked about constantly speaking to your employer, weighing up what the practice can do, weighing up your responsibilities and being open minded that you can work it out.

There is no magic number. I'm not going to say 10, 20 percent because I am not qualified. I don't understand the practice you're in and I don't understand where you're at. So you have to kind of work out the information yourself based upon looking at resources and kind of having that. Awkward conversation that you worry about, but I guarantee if you do it in a professional manner, it will come across well.

So thank you very much, Jack. I really appreciate you hosting this and and before you go, can you, can I, can we see your kitten? You want to see, you want to see my kitten? Yeah. Yeah. Great. So.

Jack Moran: You know, this is one of the many things that you'll see on the architectural social. My, my little kitten.

Maybe I'll, maybe I'll make a kitten [01:01:00] corner on the architectural social. com. Yeah. Can we post you there? Can we get

Will Ridgway: pictures? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's amazing.

Stephen Drew: But yeah. We just need a bit more kittens and a bit more joy in the world. And you gotta, you remember, it's not easy right now, but we're all kind of getting there together.

And it's these conversations which will, which will help. Think again, to bring it back to where I said at the start, to summarize, think about where you're going to be in 10 years. And to get that, you've got to think about where you're going to be in five years, where you're going to be in two years.

Three years. Three years. Three years, one year. Okay? And that's the overarching goal. And your salary will follow your experience, therefore keep your experience going. And then when your salary sometimes slows behind your experience, do research, back it up, and then have that conversation. I've been Stephen Drew and my voice is Saul.

So I'm

Jack Moran: gonna leave. I've been the Architect of Social and the Architecture team at [01:02:00] McDonald and Company. Ah, the Architecture Kitty! We are bidding you all a great week. Hope you all enjoy it and hopefully see you next time for our new project. Thank you so much guys.

Stephen Drew: Have a good evening. Take care everyone.

Bye bye.