Can an Architect Became an Award-Winning Developer? Ft. Marc Turnier at Arcvelop

Can an Architect Became an Award-Winning Developer_ Ft_ Marc Turnier at Arcvelop
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone, wherever you are. Perhaps you're in the architecture practice, perhaps you think of setting up your own studio, you thought about going to a developer or something else. If that's the case, we've got a good one for you. I got to get my bell ready. There we go. 24 seconds. Hello everyone. And thank you for joining me in this live stream special. Perhaps you're an architect working in a practice and you thought [00:01:00] maybe one day I'm going to open up my studio or you thought about working for a developer. Maybe you want to be the developer. So wouldn't it be good to learn about that journey, but also to see of a developer themselves who is design focused, maybe come from an architectural background.

That would be really cool. If you thought that, you're just in luck because I have an awesome guest with me, Mark Turnier from ArcVelop. Mark, how are you today? Are you okay?

Arcvelop: I'm good, Stephen. How are you?

Stephen Drew: I'm really good. Thank you so much for being here, Mark. I really appreciate it. Now, you do have architectural roots, don't you?

Maybe what we could do, because we're going to talk all about your current company, your award winning development company, but before going into development, You actually do come from architecture. Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Arcvelop: Yeah, so my name is Mark. I am the founder and manager director of Artvelop. I am a qualified architect and I'm also a [00:02:00] developer, which is an unusual mix. Not your common sort of standard architect. So I guess going through my experience. I, I'm passionate about this field and I'm really passionate about combining architecture and development.

And I think both the professions. Work in synergy really well. So I, I started Artvella approximately about five years ago just before the pandemic and really I've been focused on growing a small architecture development company based in London. I think it's all come really from my own experience.

I've obviously, I've got, I'm a qualified architect, but I've also had a lot of development experience as well by, through my own investments, through working for other as an in house sort of contractor for small development companies across London in particular. So I really see.

I'm quite, I really see an opportunity for architects to move into, more architects to move into the field of development, and I think our skill set really aligns with [00:03:00] being a good quality developer, and the ethos of the company is It's solely around, really high quality developments, design led developments, but done in a in a really commercially viable way.

We're really we're really focused quite heavily on commercial conversions. We love converting older buildings, things with character, with history, with with characteristics that we can sort of mold and re manufacture into something new that can be used for commercial uses or residential.

Currently on a high level basis we are I'd like to say we're like the We're almost delivery partners for our investors and our business partners. We purchase our own sites. We're shareholders in every development and scheme that we do. So we are the client. We're the developer.

We're also the architect. We design everything in house. And yeah I think I, I really started the company To push the limits of how far I could [00:04:00] take this and, obviously there are other examples of architect developers, but I think in the UK, it's not a common practice for your standard

Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough. It's absolutely fantastic. And we are going to cover in more detail a few of the cool projects you got now, but you touched upon five years ago, setting it up. Now, Marcus when you get the idea of, I think I'm going to go into this area. Everyone has different bits of advice, isn't it?

Some people say development, it's very hard. Not all architects can make it. But other people say it's a really good skill set as well. Now, also the architectural practice that you've worked at before, they weren't doing all the bit of the typologies of the projects you've done now. So I imagine the jump felt a bit big at the time.

Can you wind back the clocks and tell me about that kind of moment of switching over?

Arcvelop: Yeah, it actually happened to me at quite a young age, which is a bit unusual as well. I I became an accidental landlord quite early, about 17, 18 [00:05:00] years old due to personal circumstances. And And I essentially I before I went to architecture, I always had an interest in architecture since I was very young.

I then fell into the sort of property world and had a really a real keen interest in that too. I obviously went off to university. I rented the property. The two properties that I had, I rented them out whilst I was at university. It was actually just before the 08 crash, which was a brilliant time to, to invest.

So I learned the hard way quite early that, you have timing in property, and, but it also told me about how, Forgiving property and investing and development can be as well. I went off to Newcastle University and then Sydney University to part my Masters.

I then went I was nominated for a President Medal Award and then went to Foster and Partners and I worked a bit at Ellers and Morrison as well. So I really, about 25 years old, I was working at quite big big corporate companies. And it just didn't fit really within my sort Entrepreneurial side let's say I was working on some [00:06:00] amazing, landmark projects across the world, but it really, I felt very much part of the corporate machine so I made the decision that really, if I'm going to start this company or be a business owner, I need to learn the nitty gritty of development.

I need to go to, I need to go fully into the dark side, as architects would say. And so I found myself in some very, I worked for some small development companies around London, in Finsbury Park, in, In Central London, Kensington and in Walthamstow. And I was at the start, I was the in house architect that would be just getting the planning applications through, managing the bills on site.

And that was a real steep learning curve, but it also taught me a lot about efficiency. So I'd gone from the 400 paid tender documents at Foster and Partners down to no. My builders don't want 400 pages. They need 30 sheets that show them where the electrics are, where the walls are, all these things.

So I had this real sort of this change, but that's [00:07:00] exactly the sort of experience I needed because I needed to see what was really necessary and how to convey the message of what you're trying to get across to the builders very quickly and efficiently because, Development is fast.

It's much, much faster than your standard architecture projects, for example. Especially at Foster Palmer's where you could be working for 10 years on a scheme. So I really grounded myself and then I started contracting for these for some of these small development, private equity companies that were developing stuff.

And I think there was a real turning point. At the same time, I was still, you flipping sort of small flats and trying to build the portfolio build the pot of money. But there's a real turning point when in one of these development companies that I got the planning on a bank conversion. We'd created sort of a million pounds worth of planning gain.

We were then able to, I was understanding the finances of using the valuation to then pay for the the refurbishment that all the construction works. I could see through a lifespan of 12 months of literally how we'd taken a [00:08:00] bank that was completely vacant, redundant on the high street and turned it into sort of nine flats with a commercial unit fully leased out and how the finances work and of course the end valuation and it was A phenomenal deal.

My, my director at the time was very happy. And yeah, so that, that was a real, I knew then that there was a real opportunity for someone as an architect with design skills, who understands the numbers, who's able to go and get private investment and to use that money economically. And also, I was given full responsibility of how the building looked and if we needed to value engineer it, where the cost savings were going to be made.

It was being made by an architect in house. I think that project, it was at that point I decided to I need to whittle down my time of working for other people and start actually finding my own deals, finding my own investors and being really part of the community. Being part of the project, and that's where the idea really was born for Artvillop.

Stephen Drew: Really cool. Now. [00:09:00] So there's the job. So there's going from architecture, then doing the development is saying, seeing you can do it. And then the extra next brave step, he goes, I might do it for me. And so you had to also then learn. And that was then, so ArcPhyllis, officially your first business, which is a development consultancy, set up you, by yourself as the next architect.

So a lot of new things going here. What was it like at the start, Mark? Was it glamorous as now with five years later when you put on the awards? Or was it like you hustling? Like you said, looking for deals. You're the new kid on the block. You have to do it all. What was it like?

Arcvelop: glamorous at all. You're just taking me back now to those few, the first few years.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Arcvelop: It was tough. It was really tough. I felt like I was working for jobs and I think it probably was because I was working for jobs, I was very fortunate. I set it up with my partner, Paola, and she is also an architect as well.

So I had, we had a [00:10:00] mini team that we were, we, but the main thing was that it really was about, you've got to give yourself a run up. You cannot just leave, you cannot go from a fully employed architect even though, you can't just jump straight off the cliff and dive into development, development is a very It's a very lumpy sort of cash, cashflow, cashflow is absolutely critical in development, but it's not really forgiving in terms of every month. It's not like you're getting a lot of money in from the very start. So we had to build our client base and build our reputation by doing a lot of architecture projects.

We did a lot of client projects. I think for two people in the first year or two I think in the first year we did somewhere in the region about 30 or, or 40 projects. And they might've been. Small, anything from small house extensions. They might've been from, small commercial conversions.

They might've been HMOs. And really in that time period, I was thinking, look, I just need to build the reputation. I need to get us to a point where people trust the brand and trust us and what we do. And then I knew that. Once we [00:11:00] started generating an income that investors and really putting myself out there as saying, look, we are, we want to be your delivery partner.

If you've got a tricky site we can deal with it. If you're happy, if you're happy to fund it. Let's do a, let's do a profit share, let's do an equity share on that building. And it really started to grow, but it was a very slow process for the first two years. I had no investors. I remember having deals, but no one to fund it.

I didn't have money myself, but it's quite, Cash intensive. And obviously you have to learn what's good for the business, what's bad for the business. What are the things that are taking too much time and quite, I think the thing with businesses, you need to work out quite quickly on, on the fly.

You need to, I'm sure that's the same in your business as well. There are things that are just time intensive that just aren't cost effective. And I knew the focus was on development. So it was a real learning experience. Process.

Stephen Drew: It sounds like you've done it. You survived it. And I think that is the hardest thing. I was going to say, the last quick question I had on that is, it's fantastic that [00:12:00] you had your partner there, because you're not alone. But other than that, is there a lot of support in this area?

Because I, I don't think there's many. You just got to go out there in the big, brave, cold world and survive and learn all that stuff yourself. Was there many resources or was it a lot of working out as you go?

Arcvelop: There's not many resources for architect developers. Absolutely not. And I don't think it's something that's really taught at university at all. I think it's something, I think business in architecture is a whole, we, there are sorts of sections of architecture towards the end of the degree where you are starting to learn about this stuff.

But, yeah. In reality, when you leave university after seven years studying, I don't believe you're really in a position to run your own practice effectively and and to be profitable. And I think it's actually where a lot of architects become quite unstuck because You may have, you may be a one man band starting your own business and it's really difficult to scale that up without taking on lots and lots [00:13:00] of staff members.

And then really then you've got loads and loads of overhead. So I've heard it many times before that architects scale up to maybe five or six people and that they're actually earning the same money, if not less than they were when it was just one or two of you. So it's, you've got to do this very carefully, but Architect Developers no, there's no resources.

The resources I leaned on was probably more to do with in the property world, in, in terms of how businesses should be run from a property and development angle. And that's something that was, I was very, Fortunate to learn from some of my peers and directors that I worked for contracting.

But really it was about just being super, super efficient. I read some brilliant books on, things like the four hour work week from Tim Ferriss, those sorts of books that really, they have a strong lean towards sort of property and development and really about how you're valuing your time.

I think that was probably the book that really changed my transition from, I can't be just an architect, I need to venture into being, into the development [00:14:00] world. Because the return on your time that's put in, it just far outweighs what you would get as just the architecture consultant.

Stephen Drew: Got it. It's it sounds it, I was as well in the kind of theme of this, Mark, as well, is that some people I've seen online, one of those catchy terms, like an unfair advantage. However, what I'd love to know, because all those cool skills you got as an architect, and I think as well with your business, you've combined architecture and development and you lean on high quality.

importance of design. You mentioned, sometimes you have to look at where you cut the costs on a project at Imagine, but also there's a point where you say things you, and you, your architect brain kicks in with this development. Do you think that being an architect when in development then is a great advantage that can be used, Mark?

Arcvelop: Yeah, I'm really, this is one subject I'm really passionate about, is that I think architects are very [00:15:00] investable. And I think architects lead in developments, which I think we are seeing more and more of this. It's quite common. In the US, they've had a lot of circuit, there's been people like John Portman and Jonathan Segal that have done, have been doing this sort of since the 50s or 90s.

It's not a new thing but the, there is a re the architect role is the perfect developer. It really is because we naturally want to do everything and clients want us to do everything anyway. It's not unknown. If you have an incentivized architect who understands design who understands not only good quality design but also how to do it effectively, that it doesn't have to cost a lot of money, that the positioning of walls creating interesting spaces, the interest, the lighting and just these things don't often cost that much money, but it's actually just the consideration that needs to be brought in.

And an architect has all of that and an architect really they consider all these things. And if you start to, if you get architects that [00:16:00] have development experience, if you have architects that have they understand the numbers, the financing, the business side of development, it's a really powerful situation where.

You can approach potential investors and joint venture partners, and that's how I've really grown my business, is that I've leveraged the skills of an architect the things that I've learned, but I've done it in a more profitable way, where if you've got, if you've got a tricky site, Stephen, that you just don't know how to unlock, it's in your benefit to come to me to maximize The value of that site and also to get the best valuation by good quality design.

And on top of that, I'll also deliver it with the build team. And that's, I think you would be willing to share the profits or share the value of that site if I was going to turn around and handle that for you. And I think that's the, that's one of the things that I think is really I think architects really undervalue the skills that we bring and the amount of value that we can [00:17:00] bring.

And the project you've got there is actually one that we just won an award for with the Property Investor Awards. And it was, the, it really showed, this was actually an old project. Factory a former RockSuite factory, and it was vacant on the ground floor, had some accommodation above, but it was a corner plot in, in quite a landlocked site and the, and really I found this site, I approached my business partners and said, look, I think there's some real, there's a real opportunity here.

We, we then developed this we got planning for eight units. On this particular one we actually purchased this for around 400, 000. Once it was finished, it was valued at 1. 9 million. And we'd only spent, we spent around five, 50, 600, 000 on it. Then you've got to plus the finance costs.

And, but it, it wouldn't award because of the approach

Stephen Drew: Well done.

Arcvelop: to keep Sorry. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: No. Well done. I love

Arcvelop: Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. It's a, it won the award because of the approach that we did for the for the corner plot to keep the industrial heritage, but also how we [00:18:00] managed to get the planning.

We did it quite efficiently. And that's probably something I want to touch about is the efficiency of architects as well. And also we're able to do this in 12 months in a 12 month timeframe which is a really good annualized return for any developer. But I think we've done it in, I think we've done it in a really positive way that it's actually all the neighbours, have really congratulated us on how we've kept the theme and the style of the old Rockfactory.

We've given it a contemporary feel now, a new approach.

Stephen Drew: You've done amazingly well now and see, because you've got the attention to detail, all that stuff. If you saw me Googling this, because there was a question that came up and I was wondering what it meant. So Matt came in and he said, my wife wants to start buying properties and improving them to sell.

She's a complete lay woman. So that's where I was Googling. I'm like, what does that even mean? But loves homes under the hammer. So I think completely new to the market, genuine question. Would you encourage a discourage from someone outside of the built [00:19:00] environment or the trade from getting involved and having these ambitions in property?

What do you think about that? Is that a step too far or do you think it's maybe something someone should still explore? Bit by bit, Mark.

Arcvelop: Yeah no, absolutely. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone. I actually think that that property and development and, small scale developments and actually building a property portfolio, it should be something that Almost everyone should consider and I wouldn't want to discourage people at all that you need to have the experience.

I feel like with my experience, it's led me to be able to scale the business quicker and take on larger risks and larger projects. And, but actually when you go back to where I was when I started, I was doing very simple sort of Flat flips and conversions and, spending 25, 000 on a flat to uplift the value and keep it and rent it out.

And I think all these things, the great thing about property in particular, is that we all have a lot of transferable skills from [00:20:00] your profession, from your work, from, how you style your own home, that it can all lead into, property Development, and I think it's a really good investment vehicle.

We're very fortunate in the UK that property prices naturally go up in, in value. They have them for hundreds of years. So why not utilize that, we, to put your money into an investment. I don't think there's many other investments in the UK where you almost have. A couple or three, three ways of earning money.

You have the rental income, you have the capital appreciation. And as we've just seen recently you have things like inflation, which if you're holding onto property is actually eroding your debt on that property as well. So there's almost three ways that your assets, if you hold on to property long term you're going to, you're going to gain from that.

So no, I absolutely, I've got, there's many examples of people that don't come from design or trade backgrounds you can really get in and it's a, I think for me, it's a really good investment vehicle. [00:21:00] Yeah,

Stephen Drew: runs up and does a bad investment, you can't hold Matt, you can't hold us responsible. Only joking. What would be cool, because there was another project on ArcValor that you were particularly proud of that I would love to showcase as well, and I promise, Not to Google around in the background while we're going there.

The kind of thing you do as a part one and you get in trouble. But I'm live and I'm the host, so you stuck with me, audience. I'm sorry. No distractions. So the next one was Albion Plays. Can you tell me about this then, Mark?

Arcvelop: this one I'm particularly excited about. It's actually one that we're on site at the moment. Artvelop now, we're working in three or four locations across the UK. We really focus a lot on commercial conversions and reusing buildings. So we've converted factories as you've just seen.

We've, this is an old office block that was completely vacant for years. So the, We're also doing we've got [00:22:00] an old sawmill in Sheffield, we've got a motorcycle workshop in Norwich, we've done nurseries before, so we really like reusing all the buildings and bringing them, giving them a new breath of life and a new use, and this one's no different. It's down in Kent and we purchased this at the end of last year. We've got planning to convert the main building into 24 units and then there's a new build element on the car park to take it to around about 40 units. I'm very proud because this is our largest, it's about 30, 000 square feet. It's our largest development we've done in house as our own.

And I'll develop, the deal that we, the way that we work, we've got an investment company that work with our JV partners, Mike and Andy, but we are 50 percent owners of this property and we're looking to retain this for the long term. And this has really come off the back of of building, as I was saying before, building our investment base, building our joint venture [00:23:00] partners that we work with and really people trusting in what we deliver.

So for me that it's a really exciting development. I'm hoping it may win an award or, it'd be great. But the location is phenomenal and really that these new homes are probably going to be some of the best in the area. So yeah, very proud of it.

Stephen Drew: They look very cool. And wow, there you go. That shows what you can do. It looks very well considered as well. Matt follows up and says, he says, I was hoping you wouldn't encourage. But thanks for your response. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you, Matt, for bringing in the question.

That's really cool and keeps it interesting. While we were speaking Mark Harry says, would you say to get profitable that you have to deliver the construction as well as an architect, or do you think it's possibly a good idea? It's also possible by hiring a contractor to do the build. What's your thoughts, Mark, on using the architect and stuff?

Arcvelop: Yeah. Yeah. This is a really good question. And actually there's many ways of, [00:24:00] there's many different deals that you can do. And there's many different, it all comes down to a deal by deal basis. But I'd say as a general rule there are a couple points in the development that you really make.

Your money or you make a development profitable. Obviously the first one is when you buy it is very important. You have to buy quite well and that's why we don't buy things with planning. So we have a general rule. We don't buy sites with planning unless we can significantly improve that planning.

So it has to be quite inefficient. The second one is when you build it. You make a lot of your money when you build it because you're taking the planning gain and then you're also, you're converting the building from a former commercial unit into a residential and that's where the pound per square foot increases, the greatest.

And then we look to retain them. So we get a bank valuation to, to finance the new valuation. So I'd say on the whole, In our developments that we do, we generally get planning and we build them and that's where I've seen the best results. However we've just completed today on a scheme in [00:25:00] Orpington where, yeah, thank you which is a little pub I think it's about six or seven thousand square foot formal pub that was converted into a medical practice and then stood vacant for a long time.

We managed to, via an option agreement, we managed to agree with the vendor a price, and then we've managed to get planning on that building, and we're actually selling that on to another developer that we know. So that there are situations if you get, if you manufacture the right deal at the right price, and you get a significant planning uplift you are able to sell those on.

But I'd still caveat that with saying that it's not the same gain as you will get from building it out.

Stephen Drew: Got it. And you, I'm sure you learn these over time as well. One of the other things as well, and I'm, a lot of it sounds like there's, it's who you know, building up those contacts, building up the trust. But sourcing these projects, you mentioned there's a pub here and there. Do you really have to be around, are you constantly looking for deals?

And is it about? Developing relationships with people who might have these [00:26:00] projects so that you can come in, move, and be quick on them.

Arcvelop: Yeah, the finding the deals is probably one of the hardest elements of this. Once you have the right deal and if you're good at getting planning you can almost guarantee that you'll be able to finance it and build it. But the, it really starts with the deal and the way that.

The way that I've built Artvelop is that I've really tried to put it out there that we are the delivery side. I have, I've built up, as you said, a network of business partners and main contractors and builders. I don't sound this sort of, but people bring us, people do bring us deals because they want to work with us because of what we bring.

We have a system of of how we find deals. I have a really good network of agents, which is, I'd say probably 75 percent of the deals come from. It's from local agents that could be on market and off market. About 25 percent comes from, it might be from business partners, it might be from other people that want to work with us.

And within that, with one of my business partners, we also have a a direct to vendor campaign, which is essentially, we are [00:27:00] we're sending out letters to people like the deal I just described there in Alpington. He received one of our letters, we had a meeting with him, we agreed a price that was above market value for him and it was, and it worked for us, but we took on all the risk of, Planning and getting embroiled in that.

And that deal took two years, but it's still, it was still compared to what we would have earned as just an architect compared to being the equity, an equity owner in that you can't compare them. But you are right. Finding the deals is the toughest, one of the toughest part of it, because once you have a good deal, you can almost, once that's locked in, you can almost, if you're good at get planning and building it or selling it on, it will all follow.

But the deal is critical.

Stephen Drew: the deal is critical. Have you had a few times there, Mark, where you see something and you think, wow, the potential is, or your architecture juices are flowing, but it doesn't stack up on paper. And then you've had to go I can't do it. And maybe you've had the alternative as well, where you've [00:28:00] seen the merits in something and it's just been painful to get there and you've got there.

How do you manage those emotions? You have to, You have to work it out financially before you go on for it. Even if it is lre.

Arcvelop: unfortunately I think a lot of people tell you that emotions have to be left to the side and you have to you have to really try and separate, separate, and I find it very difficult. I mean, it's one of these things that I've got a lot better at, but. It only takes one bad deal for things to start, unfolding.

And, you have to be very strict with yourself and you have to try not to be drawn to the shiny pennies. And so we have a very strict set of criteria of things that we're, especially in this market as well. You really need to be quite conscious about, At the back end, how are you going to refinance it?

The stress testing, interest rates have just, they've gone up 15 or 13 times, you've got to be really conscious about all the market conditions and in a time where things are a bit unstable, you want to just keep to the things that and for us, that has been commercial conversions into blocks of, maybe park [00:29:00] commercial, but mainly residential.

And you really got to just get drawn into keeping the emotions out of it because there's many times that you see a property and you've got so much character. It's gray to listed, it's got, it's great.

Stephen Drew: Your heart.

Arcvelop: listed. You can see the potential that but it, It may not have that permitted development angle that you quite want, so there might be a big affordable housing limit that you've got to just consider you've got to, you've got to work around, you've got, but fundamentally, the numbers are so important and maybe that's something that the architects, architects You really need to get clued up on before you're moving into the development space, because I'd say it's the one part that in architecture we're just not taught about, and it's something that you probably have to learn as you're doing it, and I actually work, I have quite a few mentees that are architects wanting to move into development, and they show me a lot of deals where they're trying to manufacture the deal, the numbers to work, so they can buy the property, and I say no, you've got to be clear on if this is the [00:30:00] bill cost and you can't massage that bill cost down, if the vendor's not willing to go any further down on his purchase price, that's the purchase price.

And that leaves you with X amount. And does it work? Yes or no? If it doesn't work, you move on very

Stephen Drew: you move on.

There you go. So it's true, isn't it? And sometimes you gotta be bold at that decision making. Otherwise, once you pick up that project, isn't it Mike you doubt you. You're dealt with it. And it's and it's one of the things which I think. Architects feel the pressure is when a project doesn't have much of a wiggle room for fees and stuff.

That's when all the overtime occurs, and so it's the same principle then in development, isn't it? If it hasn't got enough skin on the bone for you to carry it through, make a profit, do something good, then it's actually better not to do it, right?

Arcvelop: Absolutely, you have to walk away from it, and you have to be very strict with that, and there are a lot of things that we do as an architect, which I think, having architects in house and having an architect's practice that benefit development, and actually de risk the development [00:31:00] for our investors and business partners, we're able to move very quickly, architects are very, naturally, very hard workers, and when you're incentivized within a development to get the pre app in, Quickly to get the meeting on site, to have the visual visualizations there to show the council.

In the process of buying a development, we actually will do a lot of the legwork at our own risk. But that means that we've, we're de-risking the deal because if we can find out very quickly from pre a pre-op meeting, for example, that there is no angle for what we're proposing to do, and the council just not.

They just don't, they're not going to play a game play ball. Then we, there's an opportunity there to move away with minimal costs incurred. However, in the same vein, if there is an angle for getting the funding permission we need, there's a real, there's, we've already got a piece of paper to say to our investors, look, this is developable.

We can get the residential angle. We can turn this into this and that's where you get the confidence from as well. So it [00:32:00] works both ways. And actually I'd say eight or nine times out of 10 it's usually that Once you've done the work at the beginning, it's actually the counsellors saying there's not many developers of our sort of size that are doing the visualizations we're doing on the, at such speed and when you're within the planning process that they ask for a request to change to change these walls or to change the design here and we'll have it back to them in a couple of hours, because it's our own development.

So there's a real efficiency in what we do and and that is because we're architects, and it goes back to this point about why we are, we make The best developers.

Stephen Drew: It makes complete sense. Now, there's lots of wisdom in there. That we talked there about architects becoming developers. However, maybe an architect wants to remain in an architectural role, but they want to offer a lot of value to you in terms of development. You're mentioning that you're doing this stuff.

At some point, you might, you get so busy, your portfolio is growing so much. You're not doing it. You need to look at getting an architect on board. What kind of things, [00:33:00] Mark, would really stand out to you in from your perspective as a valuable architect? Is there some tips that you can advise there or some things that may be overlooked or some things that people should bear in mind?

Arcvelop: Yeah, absolutely. It's actually something we're going through at the moment. And it's a process that we're looking at. And I can say that there has to be, in my opinion, Architects are very, quite often very design led, but there are quite few architects. I think it's growing, I think it's getting better, but I think there are quite a few that really understand and have engrossed themselves in property and development.

And I think, and I think that, for me is If someone was going to join Artvelop as a, and hopefully replace me, and then

Stephen Drew: Give you a little break. Yeah,

Arcvelop: yeah I would really be looking for someone that not only understands and has a great style and loves converting properties, but they had a real grasp on on, you know, efficiency and really understanding the numbers and really [00:34:00] wanting to to make projects work on both sides and having that clear consideration of both sides.

And I don't mean to say that, that there are some situations where the budgets are much higher because of the location of the property and it's all relative to where you're, but there are situations where you have to be very, Cost effective on what you're doing and your approach has to be very considered.

And the other side of it is, it's probably down to managing build teams and managing contractors and there is a real I think from my experience of working with contractors they really enjoy working with me because the decisions are made quite quickly, and there are, there's a certain, there's a real sense of direction in terms of when they ask a question, okay, we look at all the options and we problem solve very quickly, and the decision is made and we move on.

And I think, That efficiency not only helps for cost, but it really makes contractors want to come back and work with you again and again. And that for me is a very important skill. [00:35:00] That is something that unfortunately you can't really teach. It's got, it's about being a people person and really and really just getting that experience from.

And I really got my, Keep my teeth cut by doing that, working for smaller developers, but I learned a hell of a lot. Yeah, I think they're the key considerations I'd be looking for.

Stephen Drew: There you go. Lots and lots of insightful stuff as well. It's really exciting and on the theme of excitement, I'll bring up your projects. The company's evolving, you've done those five years, you're in this great position now, but what kind of then excites you at the moment, Mark, maybe in terms of the industry, where we're going, you mentioned about the interest rates gone up, hopefully that all, we get a bit of luck and things calm down and stuff.

Are you excited on the outlook of The rest of 2024 are you cautiously going through it? How do you feel market confidence and everything like that at the moment?

Arcvelop: Yeah, it's been a, I'd say it's been quite a tricky year or two. We've had quite a bit of unstability instability, sorry. And I [00:36:00] think my approach will remain the same for the last two years. This year I really see that we're probably in a year of quite a bit of a nothing year again. I don't think things are going to move up or down too much.

I think, really, last year, the thing is, inflation has really been out of control, and that has, the actual prices in the market have actually fallen, but because of inflation, we haven't really seen the, or felt the effect of it too much, and it seems like we're getting that back under control now I think it's going to be another year where Hopefully, no, you know, a bit more stability, but nothing too much is happening.

I don't think we're going to see great falls or great declines, but that, to me, is quite a positive year for me, because

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Arcvelop: projects, for me, are really driven by adding the value to these properties, and if the prices were to come down, a couple of percent or go up a couple percent, that's not going to change anything to what I do.

So I see this year has been quite a positive year. [00:37:00] We're certainly hoping so. And yeah, we're just going to keep on doing the same sort of projects and the same sort of developments. And I'm really hoping for the future of architect developers. I'm really hoping to try and have a bit of a I really want to try and have an effect on and help over architects that want to move, that are interested in development and they're interested in property that want to move into this space.

I'd really like to try and just remove the stigma a little bit of architects being on one side and developers being on the other side. And I I actually want to You know, do a lot more work with younger architects and, and really promote that actually this can be a really positive and profitable way because I feel like. It's a hot topic and I feel like for a long time it's, there's been a discussion about really that architects feel quite undervalued and sometimes in their roles and underpaid and, and certainly I've experienced those sorts of things with the number of hours I've worked for, whereas there is a different way of doing this and I've seen it firsthand and I've done it myself that you [00:38:00] can be in Rewarded for all the work that you put in and you can be involved in the deal, you can have equity and you can grow intergenerational wealth really from actually just stepping out just from just being the architectural consultant to really developing your own stuff.

Yeah, it's something I'm really passionate about. I'd love to do more of these sorts of talks and really push it a little bit.

Stephen Drew: You know me, I love to talk and we will definitely return to it. I had one last question though, before, before we wind down, we hear the word prop tech. We hear all this stuff. This last year we've had AI. But it's been around in some shape or form, but it's way more prevalent than before.

I'm just interested, Mark, in your world. Do you see these technologies being used right now, or do you still think that there's a time and a place for that kind of stuff? But it's still all about the deals. It's still all about the networks. It's still all about you on site speaking to the contractors.

Do you think AI and all that stuff is going to blur into [00:39:00] your world?

Arcvelop: It's starting to creep in, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. We developers and as an architect, we can see it all. It's all happening already. We've actually been, we're actually underway in talking to a company that that's is an AI, they're an AI operator, and they will systemize your whole business into AI.

So everything within your business, within reason, so obviously, they can't do the drawing that's not technically true, they can do, but it's more focused on actually how the business is operated. The way that we source sites can be automated through AI, the way that my emails are managed can be done through AI.

AI. Everything from, managing tenants to managing when rents come in, it can all be systemised and optimised. So I've been reached out by a few companies for those sorts of things. The obvious one is obviously things like visualisations can be done very quickly and options for visualisations.

So it's something that we are looking to integrate and work with. We're not shying away from it. But I don't think that [00:40:00] AI be able to manage my builders on site. I don't think, I think there are some things that it's not going to be able to, there is a real human approach and that people management that needs to be done within the development world and that's nurturing relationships with agents, it's nurturing relationships with builders and these things really are probably some of the most profitable role.

Elements of the business. The whole creative side, I still, I think it can be a tool that can be used. Absolutely. But whether it can successfully analyze whether we should buy a building and develop it. I think there is a certain element that it has to be done by someone with experience.

But there's definitely tools now that are coming in. We we're not shying away from it. We want to embrace it and really see how we want it. We just want to be able to do more by using it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. My view is as well, anything I can automate in the business to do the mundane stuff, I would much rather use AI and then you need people in, I client facing positions [00:41:00] in the business. So it's very interesting. And that seems to be my, the kind of theme that everyone we've got on here is using a tool.

is important, and there is a danger you don't use it as a tool, you might miss out on certain things. Having said that though, is it going to replace the role of an architect or developer 100%? I don't think it's there yet,

Arcvelop: definitely not. No, definitely not.

Stephen Drew: That's good news that we got a bit of time now. Yeah, we got a little bit, maybe in 10 20 years like you mentioned that book, The 4 Day Week, we can get a robot for the rest of it.

But before you go, Mark, I really appreciate everything you, you've talked about here. I think it's been a great episode. Do you have any questions for me on the outside? Because, we talked about, I used to do a little bit of architecture recruitment and also development and some of the advice you've got here is complimentary, but some of it is not what I used to say to people, which is quite interesting as well, so is there anything you'd

Arcvelop: Oh what was the parts that you didn't say to people?

Stephen Drew: I was so we went back when I was doing development [00:42:00] recruitment, I'd have a lot of architects want to come to it. And where you're very interesting, Mark, is because you worked at Foster's and Partners, as you've said, and you had a good time there, all that stuff. But that typology doesn't really normally suit the development of what you went into.

So it's a really good point that you can get there. However, I'm guilty of saying if you want to work on a developer on UK projects, you really need to be on, architectural practice, which is doing that on the small to medium scale, not a large scale. I would have been back then trying to say to Mark, have you thought about working in the Red Sea?

Do you want to be on a hundred and eighty grand in the desert?

Arcvelop: I think we might, I think we might have had that conversation a few years ago.

Stephen Drew: Maybe, because that's the kind of thing that if you work at Fosters you would typically do, but you've gone against the mold right? You've broken past it.

Arcvelop: Yeah. Maybe I didn't find the right recruiter, I don't think. No, I'm joking.

Stephen Drew: I [00:43:00] would have kept trying to get you to go to Dubai, I think, isn't it? So I actually learned something from that and I think It's a testament to when there is a will, there's a way, but you have to push past it.

I imagine you got a lot of resistance, especially when people said you're doing it at first. They were like, what? You've been doing, all these projects,

Arcvelop: Absolutely. Yeah, I remember my directors at some of the small companies after Foster Partners they, they told me, you have to choose whether you're going to be an architect or a developer. And I told them my plan. I was like no, I want to combine the two of them.

No, you've got to choose. And a few times they said, I'm You're just an architect. I've heard that a few times, you're just an architect. All of this anyway, but no. No, I hope that has given, an insight into sort of my experience and how I've transitioned and it was a real sort of transition, but it's absolutely positive possible.

You just have to really want it and be prepared to work hard.

Stephen Drew: put yourself out there, isn't it? And I think, and the other last thing I'd say, which I really, it's not all glamorous at the start as [00:44:00] well. And the one thing that I'm always just by going to development doesn't mean you're, necessarily on a higher salary straight away. All this stuff, you really got to prove your worth.

You've really got to like. Do unglamorous, long hours, development as well. The other thing is this flexi working on all this stuff. It's if you got a project, you're there, you're on site, this it's a, but if you want it, then you can get it, but it's a different world, isn't it?

Arcvelop: You. You hit the nail on the head is that I may have made it sound quite easy and quite, it's absolutely not. And the thing with development is that things do just go wrong. Things, there's always problems. So when a problem happens, if you are delivering that project, you need to be driving in your car to go and sort that problem out.

And you'll stay there until it's done. And that's the other side of, there's obviously, The great side of being involved in the deal, but when it's a joint venture, you're in it together with your partner and you've got to be there to deliver it.

So there's a lot of responsibility, there's a lot of stress and there's, there's a lot of risk as well. [00:45:00] But in my opinion it's all worth it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah I agree. I think yeah, if the phone rings, and you've got to take the call, and you've got to think about, do you really want that? And that's the last thing I'd say with development. It's amazing, but it is a commitment, like you say, isn't it? And it's the best thing. However, It's full on, right?

If that, like you said, if the project's going ahead, you've got to think about what you want in life. And the last thing I'd say before you go is, I think sometimes some architects can want the idea of working for a developer, but the actual role is not for everyone, is it, Mark? It's hard. There's certain people which lend really well into it, but maybe there's nothing wrong with being a design architect, right?

It's no problem.

Arcvelop: Absolutely not. No. I, it is, it's not for everyone. That's absolutely true. And you, as I just said you really have to, you have to want it, you have to be willing to put that time and really step across into, there's obviously the perks and the benefits of stepping across and being the client and working on that side, but there's [00:46:00] also, the risks and the stress of all that.

So it's. It's not for everyone, and for some people, being the architectural consultant, doing their part, working with a team, is absolutely where, and people are just more naturally gifted at doing that. For me, it suited me, it suits my personality, it's what, I enjoy the, I enjoy a dynamic role so yeah, but yeah, it's absolutely not for everyone.

Yeah, great.

Stephen Drew: that it is for what a wild ride and what a fantastic stuff and I think that by seeing all the stuff that you've done, it really shows that it can be possible if you work hard. First of all, thank you so much, Mark, for being here. The last thing I'd say before you go, where can people find you?

Where can people find the business? How can they reach out to you?

Arcvelop: I want to say thanks again, Stephen. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, you can find us our website's there, artvelop. com. On Instagram, we're artvelop, and on Facebook, we're artvelop. But yeah, always happy to help other people and send me an email. I [00:47:00] love discussing this topic. Yeah, and really yeah, anything that I can help I always do.

Stephen Drew: What a gentleman. Thank you so much, Mark. Stay in the stage for one second while I say goodbye to everyone. Thank you for being here. Thank you for putting in questions as well to me and Mark. It really helps adds a little bit of an excitement as well to the podcast, more content coming up soon.

I've just got to schedule it. I've been running around. I need AI. To schedule my podcast, that's one thing I am going to try and do. And I'm not even going to be shy about it. But thank you so much. What a great episode. If you thought about doing your own development company or going into development, I think this has been a great episode.

And you should check out all of ArcVelop's really cool projects. Let's see how big it goes. And let's see how we can have a catch up. And it will be a different conversation about How little time you have and all that cool stuff and maybe how your in house team of architects have gone. But thank you, Mark.

I'm going to end the live stream now. Thank you to the audience. [00:48:00] See you again soon. Stay on the stage. All right, everyone. Take care. Bye bye, everyone. Bye bye.