Careers in BIM and the Built Environment, ft. Vanessa Cazaubon

Careers in BIM and the Built Environment, ft. Vanessa Cazaubon
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[00:00:00]

Stephen Drew: It's Friday. Not that long. Come on, stay with me. Don't go to the pub just yet. You go to the pub in 40 minutes. I want, I won't tell you bus. It's fine. CPDs been that off. Weekends coming, but before that I've got a super cool livestream special. 20 seconds.

Hello everyone and welcome to this livestream special on a Friday. I promise I won't keep you too long before you go to the pub, before you [00:01:00] finish for the day. However, while I've got you and you're killing a little bit of time, we might learn something today. 'cause I have an awesome guest from the industry who I know before.

She's. Being an Architectural technician is an Architectural technician, BIM expert extraordinaire, and career consultant. So that's the whole point about this, is to get people on who have done the job, who can give you advice with you in your career. So on that note, can I welcome to the stage the fantastic Vanessa Caban?

Vanessa? Woo,

Vanessa Cazaubon: Hi everyone. Thank.

Stephen Drew: well done.

Vanessa Cazaubon: Thank you so much,

Stephen Drew: Thank. Thank you so much, Vanessa, for being here. Now, while I know you, some people in the livestream might not have met you yet, so maybe you can just first of all tell us a little bit about who you are and your background, first of all.

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah. I studied Architectural technology moved into Architectural technicians, worked in environment of [00:02:00] BIM moved into recruitment. And I also had that time when Covid threw us all off. And I learned some skills in coaching, so I did that as a profession. And so now I'm a career strategist, so I support and help others in their careers building up on their strengths helping them pivot themselves in terms of their changing or just develop themselves so they can explore and what's the word, get to the next step in their career.

So that's what I do at this time. It all started for me just working in Architecture.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. I appreciate you being here. You are in the right place. 'cause we both, we guess me and you both are we've gone through the industry a little bit 'cause we, I studied Architecture and you studied Architectural technology then. Is that right?

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Tell me about that then. Wind me back to the clocks.

So

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah, so Architectural technology is really fantastic because it gives you the information concern, the construction, the contract law [00:03:00] facilitating management the science of the building. It gives you all the kinds of backbones of the skeleton. So it's not just about designing. And there's two kind of career paths you can really take.

One would be a chartered Architectural technologist, and the other one you can continue as an Architectural technician and build on those skills and become profession in that area or that niche. And some people do their niche in passive housing. Some people do their niches in different areas of sustainability.

So that's the kind of two routes that it kind of bridges and we support Architect.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. I tell you what, my technical drawings were questionable, so I'm sure you could still teach. May I tell you what. Yeah. You don't wanna look at them. So I'm curious, Vanessa, when was the idea in your head? So you must have been, when did you think, do you know what I'm gonna study Architectural technology.

Wind me back the clock. What happens?

Vanessa Cazaubon: To be honest with you, it started with a conversation with my father. He was just telling me, I've gotta do a [00:04:00] job. And I was like, yeah, I wanna do something arty. And he was like, that's not gonna work with. So I spun the work. He said to me actually to be a lawyer, I was supposed to be a barrister. And I compromised with him and I did work experience there.

I didn't feel comfortable. I didn't feel like I fit it in very well. And I took a survey with all the barristers and they said if they had to do their life all over again, they wouldn't be a, I said, you know what, I'm not doing that. So I stand the word Architect to my dad. And to this day, he still thinks I'm more of Architect than anything, or was more of an Architect than anything.

But it was a conversation with my dad. And so that was an influe. He was influential in my career path. And so that's what led me into Architectural technology. So yeah, in short, yeah.

Stephen Drew: I love it. I, me too. I, the, there was the romantic idea of. Designing buildings, and I was like, I have to do that. And so I as well. So I went into Architecture as well. Now, I enjoyed the course. [00:05:00] I learned a lot. However, when I went into the industry, I still enjoyed certain parts of it.

But for me, Vanessa, I don't know about you. However, it was very different it felt for me than what I was studying before. The transition was quite a bit of an initial shock to my system. If I'm being very honest with you. What was your experience? Did you fit right in? Or did you also have a little bit of that shock feeling?

Vanessa Cazaubon: I had a bit of that shock as well, and think back one. I didn't have an understanding of the process of the business as itself in an Architectural setting. I didn't understand different components and the parts in which bring a whole project together. And so feel a bit like, oh my gosh how do I connect and cover of these other professionals?

Yeah, I felt a little bit thrown in a deep end. Then obviously the understanding of the projects and so you know, you are always gonna be learning. So you do get that kind of experience. I felt quite the same. Yeah.[00:06:00]

Stephen Drew: It's it's quite an eye-opener. Now, there is something else that, because over the years we've spoken a few times. The first time I was ever aware of you, Vanessa, was not just because of your Architectural technology skills, but your BIM skills. Now I have got a confession on live on the air, so I have used Revit and I had a beginner's course in it, but I haven't used Revit since thousand 15.

Now you have used it much more. So I would love to hear your journey as well on, on that front when you started picking up Revit, when it became important to you using BIM and how that got involved in your career.

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah. Okay. I quantified, I finished my degree as Architecture technologist. And in actual fact, my director, the course director, thought that my modeling was brilliant and I actually became a lecturer. So I was teaching grownups how to use software was crazy. And through that [00:07:00] I learned that it was really important as I then developed my work experience in the field.

It really is important to understand the fundamentals of that software, understanding the components and really getting strong experience, strong knowledge of that software. Because I personally have made mistakes. I've had a, I'm not gonna lie to you, I can admit I've had a job where I really butched it up thinking I knew how to use Revit, and it turned out really bad and I lost out on a job. I would always advise people to continuously learn and practice because the software is always upgrading and it's for you to be able to be competent enough to be able to deliver the construction drawings in a way in which everyone can understand that information and obviously present it in a good quality.

So always learn. So you know, you should.

Stephen Drew: I need to, maybe I can pick it up, from 2014 to 2023. But I love what you said because that's really half about careers, isn't it? You make mistakes [00:08:00] all the time. Even as in, in terms of careers or even in my business now, I'm making mistakes all the time. I made a clang in this morning.

Okay, I'm not gonna do that again. I think we gotta move on and I think that when you are a bit earlier in your career, it's easy to take mistakes to heart. You think you're a failure, you think you're rubbish. I'm sure when you crashed that bin model or whatever, at the time, you were extremely upset with yourself.

However, it's picking yourself up and moving on that I think's important. Tell me about one or two other jobs. I'm sure you didn't crash

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah, so I add on that to be because part of the BIM process is to pick up on error. Is to highlight fits where you're not so skilled. And so therefore, one advice is if you're in that environment, if there's something you don't know really, definitely speak to the BIM Manager or your project manager, whoever's leading that project to say, okay, I might need to take a few courses or short courses just to make sure I'm fully aware and understand.

The process of delivering this particular [00:09:00] document. So I would always advise to do that because like I've said, I've had a butch shop before. And also I would say as the second point is depending where you are in your career, there's some practices which are like Architecture and BIM, and then there's some that are in Architecture, material design, Architecture, and engineering.

So really be sure about the business and practice that you wanna work for. If you're developing yourself and going to that direction, that day, really high or established, because I've been in practices where it's predominantly BIM and projects weren't necessarily exciting with design, but once I was there, after my mistakes, there was no going back.

I knew what to do, how to operate the software, and how to collaborate with my other peers and how to manage data really well more effectively. So sometimes it's. Speaking out and letting you know your staff know that actually I might need to practice or learn a bit more or do that on the side or, and definitely when you're moving [00:10:00] forward to think about if that's the direction you wanna go, making sure this practice is well established in the environment of BIM and they can support you in your development.

Because some of them have really high standards now. It's a lot of them have integrated BIM in their project.

Stephen Drew: Wow, that's really useful. And you're right, being a BIM Coordinator or a manager at A developer or a multidisciplinary consultancy is gonna be very different. Done an Architecture practice. And you're right, even interior design. I'm not too, some, a lot of interior design companies are still using Vectorworks, compared to architects. So it's it's a different world. Listen, I still want to talk a, learn more about your career, but you raise a really interesting point. And just before I ask you one question, we've got a few comments that have come in Michael and says, good luck. Oh, I'm not sure why.

Hopefully we don't need Yeah, good luck. I think we're still alive, so the luck's going like that. Exactly. We've got a few hellos come in and Lola says, thank you for [00:11:00] sharing your story about making a mistake. If anyone else has a question in the audience for Vanessa, please do put it in. As long as it's, PG 13 and all that stuff, I don't wanna get kicked off LinkedIn then we'll bring it up.

But we're both open books and Vanessa's career's. Very interesting. So maybe Vanessa was gonna ask you is because. Okay. Studying Architectural technology or I, me studying Architecture, that's a a clear career trajectory at the start. You do that and now we're seeing one or two maybe masters in building information modeling, BIM courses, however, Going a career into BIM can be quite fuzzy, like you mentioned.

And there's different avenues to do it because there isn't such a thing as, here's a degree in being a BIM Coordinator per se. So what's your insight and thoughts on if someone's interested in going into that? How do they begin? Or do you have any tips on how to go along the BIM journey?

Vanessa Cazaubon: [00:12:00] Is because We had the RIBA plan, we still got that. The BIM has been a process which we've put, like we had the bread and the butter's kind of gone on top and melted inside. And now it's part of, the process in our projects. And so that's why it's a bit fuzzy at the moment, and we've not necessarily got, itemized agree for it.

So I would say if you are open to starting or implementing BIM, I would first inquire about, first of all, Your background. So you could be an engineering, which is fantastic as well as in Architecture. So if you're in the A I A E C industry or the built environment, generally speaking I think you've got a good prospect from their on the jump.

Autodesk, they have a Autodesk certified professional certification, which a lot of practices now they use Revit, but there's also other software. But that is the leading. Software in terms of managing, supporting and helping the model create models to [00:13:00] work in BIM. So that could be one avenue.

So I would figure out making sure that your software knowledge and experience is on point. And then also I would look into the types of practices which have BIM centers or hubs or they're really big on technology vr. Honestly a little nugget there. Take it. If you're in the industry and, thinking further ahead in the future, VR is gonna be in high demand.

A lot of architectures now are able to sell the experience to their clients and stakeholders through the virtual reality. If you are able to develop that skill, that would be great. But for the foundation, in terms of starting. BIM technician is the position I would go for. And I would connect with projects or practices that have implemented BIM in their projects.

Those are the kinds of practices I would go into. And again, develop your software. That's huge. Also do some [00:14:00] external learning as well. You've got other platforms. I'm.

Stephen Drew: You can say a platform you like, don't

Vanessa Cazaubon: You

Stephen Drew: I'll send

them the bill after. It's okay.

Vanessa Cazaubon: all of us have their own resources as well. They have their own resources for learning and they're leading. You've got LinkedIn, Udemy, all those other courses where that can support you in a knowledge of understanding the BIM processes and understanding the integration of how important it is to have, accommodate and share that information so that, errors can be worked out sooner than later.

Yeah. Do you think that's sufficient, Steve, do you think I

Stephen Drew: I think that's a really, I think that's a really good point. And you're doing re you're doing really well in your first livestream, even with me teasing you, so don't

Vanessa Cazaubon: Thank you.

Stephen Drew: You're doing well. Jordan was actually one of the, one of the most listened to episodes. He joined me on the podcast earlier this year, and he also says, I would highly recommend also looking into understanding A C D E, which I think means common data environment.

Am I [00:15:00] right? There we go. Oh, and we've got another one where Michael says, learn

Vanessa Cazaubon: Love

Stephen Drew: acc@autodesk.com Is Autodesk

acc. C D F. C d e. Two tutorials. My goodness. I got there in the end. Sorry guys. It's Friday. It's been a long week, but The li the link is there as well. All three resources. Michael says, Michael also did a podcast and he was one of the most popular podcasts that we released last year.

My goodness. All the illumini is showing up in terms of then I'm really impressed. Makes sense now, Vanessa, what I was gonna talk about as well you've also seen have you, and gimme a flavor of this, but have you worked in like more traditional Architecture practices towards BIM consultancies as well?

Can you give people the vibe of how the different vibes are in these different companies and how important it is maybe for people to find the right fit, even if it's not right at the

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah, absolutely. So ultimately, within the BIM process, you have [00:16:00] first, the client, the stakeholder, the people that's gonna invest their money in the project. They. Process of, the viability and liaising with the architects and the key people who are gonna support bringing this into fruition.

So when you understand the whole process of, start to finish of a project, Then you get to learn about what it is that you do, why you are important, what your aims and how work of the BIM Manager. So there's a few positions. The BIM, Manager, BIM, Coordinator, BIM technician and also information manager.

When you understand the structure and how something becomes from start to the end that is very helpful. Now we have a few sectors. So we have the Architectural, which is traditional rebar plan, and they've like implemented BIM in their processes. You have design and build, which is more like a turnkey experience.

So it's just one contract where a client and then a design and build [00:17:00] practice literally picks the carpenter picks. The sculpture picks all of the professionals and they manage that. And they are slowly moving into BIM. There's there's some, there's two leading practices that are huge with BIM with that, but that's another scope or another sector.

And then you've got the BIM consultancy, the ones that deal with the information management sports, some of the traditional Architectural practices and kind of managers. And looks over their process to ensure that they, the common data, the way they pass on information is correct, the standards are right.

And they help and ensure that everyone stays in the framework of the, the BIM execution plans and so on. And so there's three areas. You also got the contractors, they become more later in the stage only because they're dealing with ensuring that, what's to the plans is being constructed.

It's for you to understand really. More about your strengths. So I've al I always say start with [00:18:00] when you studied Architectural technology, you have those modules. I have people who lead more to facilitate, facilitate manager. So they went into estate, real estate because they were strong in that.

And then I had people who were did contract laws, they was a contract administrator. Then they niched into that. And I had some people who really liked the science of the building and they moved into passive house. So I would say to you, based on your degree, what modules really were you interested and strong or you felt I could do this further and niche down?

And I know it may sound, oh my gosh, I don't wanna put myself too away from the crowd, but actually now in the market, a lot of professionals now or directors are really interested in people who know something really well and have an expertise in something because it adds a value or strand.

To the whole project in terms of the building. So I would advise people to niche down on one particular area, whether it's, thermal bridging, whether it's passive [00:19:00] houses, sustainability niche down, whether it's about what's that? I can't pronounce that, that word, biophilic system.

Stephen Drew: Oh, you are? You're entering another echelon now. I can't say that with my Welsh accent.

Vanessa Cazaubon: But there's different niches. And I would say to anybody, definitely pick a niche and then become an expert in that niche. And I'm telling you, you'll be much more full of, much more received. If you are someone who's an Architectural technician. You've not got a niche, but BIM, that's great.

But if you can have a niche, a particular area you work in is a good look for you.

Stephen Drew: Very insightful information here, and I appreciate it. Now, a lot of this comes from your experience at the time, but equally, a lot of it comes from what you've learned. I'm guessing in terms of recruitment, because like me, Vanessa, you fell into recruitment. No one really. Plans to go into recruitment.

I certainly didn't, I don't know about yourself. You fall into it by accident and [00:20:00] however you can learn a lot of stuff 'cause you get to see practices from the sideline and certain things. Can you walk me through what that was like in terms of recruitment? What you've learned from the process, which now informs what you do in terms of career consulting?

Vanessa Cazaubon: So I learned through the process that a lot of the successes were happening because whoever was interviewing you felt that you can join the team. So the fact that you've got an interview, your CV has passed the mark, whatever those credentials, whatever the experiences you've had you've, that's been ticked

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Vanessa Cazaubon: the inside.

You learn that actually the person you are interviewing, it's really about your personality. It's really about whether you can fit in their team or their structure and whether they can see you. Meeting with them meeting. So I would always advise people in terms of the interview, if there's [00:21:00] anything that I've learned through hiring people not me hiring, but recruiting those and matching people up really well is your personality.

When you get in the interview, your personality must shine and ensure that you are always interested in what's currently going, ensuring that you are talking about where this business is in terms of their projects. It would you can find out certain information, but definitely the key is your personality.

Stephen Drew: Very insightful and I agree with you. I think an interview is, and the whole point of actually getting the job really is to fill the need of the business. And part of the role in the interview is to con convince the other person that you can fulfill that need in the business.

Vanessa Cazaubon: And you'll find that a lot of the candidates, they're really scared. Oh my gosh. Yes. Okay, fair enough. You might have to present your portfolio once again and talk through the projects, but a lot of them get scared because they think they've not yet qualified. But actually, when you have the interview partially qualified, it's really about that human connection and the one-to-one [00:22:00] connection.

And I always direct my candidates to really show that they can be themselves. And so I worked with them on that.

Stephen Drew: Well done. No, it really makes a lot of sense in terms of the interview. Now, you touched briefly on there at the start about, if you've got an interview, then the CV Hass done its job to get you through the door. Now can we, if we can focus on the CV for a quick second. 'cause what I love is, 'cause I do a talk a lot about Architecture cvs or more of, what's an Architectural Assistant or an architect's typical Cbmm portfolio.

But what I love here is that there's. There, there's a few differences aren't there, of what's gonna be on an Architectural technology CV or a BIM? Coordinator as a CV compared and often 'cause an Architect will spend a lot of time on a portfolio, but an Architectural technologist portfolio can be very different.

It's pr half the time, it's a set of drawings and that's great. But can you walk through, first of all, what you've learned? Works quite well in loosely in terms of a CV and then if a [00:23:00] portfolio's needed,

Vanessa Cazaubon: So CV loosely, what works really well. What because it's like a. Because with the CV, obviously it's individuality. They take into account how many kind of softwares, what softwares your competency of software. That's a huge thing. And definitely attention to detail because from the jump as Architectural technologists, you'll be doing a lot of detail and drawing.

So

Stephen Drew: Yeah. You don't wanna typo. I.

Vanessa Cazaubon: it's it can be a thing. Also I found, which is interesting, is there's a sort of standard way of layering out your CV. Sometimes it's okay to actually put your experience first rather than your qualifications, because a lot of the time when I've been hiring and I've had quite a few contracts they, I've had, conversations with just phone calls a lot of the time.

They really want to understand [00:24:00] what projects you've worked on. How you've used your skills. And so if the experience part of your CV I wholeheartedly say go fat on that, go fat on that, but structure it in a way in which you can get some form of concise consistency or conciseness in the layout.

But I definitely I've learned that they are big on what you've done in that experience that you've had. If you've had those experiences.

Stephen Drew: Makes sense and thank you for sharing that. So I agree attention to detail is key. The CV portfolio should be the most important document of yourself. 'cause it's your career, it's you, isn't it? And I think that while I'm not too worried about a typo, I. Sometimes people who are reading the CV can be put off and that would be a shame if it doesn't get you through the door.

So thank you for sharing that. And I know you do a lot of career coaching and we're gonna talk about where people can find you LinkedIn, first place to check [00:25:00] but. Yeah, but just before we do that, while I got you, I want to talk about things in the wider world as well because, so since you've done recruitment you now do a bit of career coaching and equally as well, you are involved in a lot of e d I issues in the industry.

Now, I'd love to hear your thoughts because, there's two things that's going through my mind as well. The construction industry built environment industry. Predominantly before has more men than females, first and foremost. But in equally, you are proudly as well a black woman in the construction industry, which is amazing as well.

From your perspective, what's it been like, being, in, in a minority, going through the industry, what's your, has it gone better in the years you've done it, or do you think there's still a lot of work to do?

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah. When I was working A lot of the time I didn't see much of people my same, that, there were some practices where there was like literally two women, it was me and we all kind of gravitate as [00:26:00] possible because, so two sides to it. As a woman, it's nice when we are in an environment, our practice, and there's other women because we can have those relationships, which is really important for women just generally saying.

There's been definitely growth in that. Definitely a hundred percent. In terms of me and, the color of my skin, I feel there's still more things to do. So I'm part of the N A W I C, which is for women in construction, which that's really I'm passionate about now. And so I'm working with these groups of women just to create an environment where women can collaborate with other professionals within this industry.

I've witnessed different things because. So I've seen a development and it has improved, I must say that. I still think there's still more time to go. And I remember in my early experience, because I first started doing interior design just to dabble in. And I met, I went to this meeting and it was full of [00:27:00] women.

I can't remember what it was to save my life, but it was very impactful. So I think we still need to continue to have groups of women that are. Those girls, the younger women. In terms of ethnicity, I definitely think we need to ensure that we're getting an inclusive type of environment because a lot of the time it's, yes, we get there, but how do we stay there?

And a lot of the environments I've worked personally, I've part of not staying there has been the fact of my social space with my colleagues. I spend half my day, most of my years, my time with you rather than my family. So with that being said, you've got to have those interpersonal relationships and that's really key.

And I think there's still more growth to be had. But definitely it's been positive moving forward. I think so.

Stephen Drew: I agree. I think it's going in the right direction. As a young Welsh gay man myself, before it felt like I was the only gay in the village, now there's a lot more, it's going in the right way. It's definitely going in the right way. Now changing the subject [00:28:00] slightly from going back to before David James says, CVS always need updating and never ending work.

I tell you folks, David, I feel your pain, but you're right as we go on, so does that CV and half the art form can be. Condensing it a little bit as well. Now Vanessa, we are gonna tell everyone where they can find you, if you can find you on LinkedIn, a few other things before that though, I like to flip it around.

Okay? 'cause I've been asking you lots of questions and you can ask me if you'd like one or two questions, whatever comes to mind. And we've met before it, we haven't scripted this. You can ask me whatever's on your mind. So whatever comes.

Vanessa Cazaubon: chain. We're doing this spontaneously.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, exactly. So you can put me in this in, in the firing line if you want,

Vanessa Cazaubon: I'm actually gonna share something that I explored and I wanna know if you agree or think it's true or either or. So if I've actually learned [00:29:00] that in your, on your cb, you actually don't have to share all of your jobs on the CV.

Stephen Drew: Correct. Yeah, I think. It depe, it de, it depends if you haven't got many jobs, 'cause you're early in your career, then half of it's about building up the one or two

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: You're like, oh, need to fill the page

Vanessa Cazaubon: How do you feel about that? How do you feel about that?

Stephen Drew: Yeah I'm not against it. Or the other thing is that I think it's important to say it depends.

If you were at the end of your career, maybe you have a job for a long time, you will talk about that, about more, so sometimes directors say, now let's be, I. Hypothetical. So if I was like the director of the Stephen Drew Architects or whatever, I dunno how good the quality of work would be, but let's pretend I was there then I, and I was there for 20 years.

I might talk about that more, but I wouldn't talk about when I was a part one at E P R architects. 'cause it's a bit like, as from ages ago. And I think that, It's okay to focus on two or three of your most recent jobs and then [00:30:00] summarize the bottom and, oh, for example, say now when you're starting your career, you've been contracted here or there.

You might bunch them up a little bit and focus on another role. So I think it's okay over a length of time and I think that you should. You should selectively edit things, half of it when you go on with your career. I think Vanessa, it's edited, isn't it? And I think that no one likes the CV, which is booming 20 to 30 pages long.

A CV should be two pages, three pages maximum. And the portfolio can expand upon that. No one wants to look at a seven page CV. They just get bored, in my opinion. What do you think?

Vanessa Cazaubon: Definitely. I agree. So I think the nugget here, which I wanted to say this because a lot of people know, you don't necessarily have to share every single job that you've gone to when. A marketing tool. It's a space where you're presenting to them, look what I've done in the past, which is [00:31:00] relevant to what you need right now.

So just to A lot of my candidates are like, oh my gosh, they've given me everything. And I'm like, you actually, these three jobs or these two jobs were huge, they were impactful. You spent how many years on it. And I think it's relevant to the position. Just so you know, you don't need to have all of your jobs on, but not everyone know, so I thought that would be great.

Everyone.

Stephen Drew: I agree. It's, and again think about the first project you've done in university. You did it a while ago. It wasn't the best one. Why are people still putting it in? Smooth it all over. On your most recent greatest project. You, and chances are the job that you are currently in.

Usually not always. However, usually you've done more responsibility. It's probably a bigger project and therefore it's the one to focus on. Francis agrees that it's a really interesting point, but the CVM portfolio that is good to know. But the, any other questions you want, [00:32:00] we can do a few if you want.

It can be, sorry.

Vanessa Cazaubon: I.

Stephen Drew: Go on. Yeah, so maybe we can do it. I'll tell you what I'll do really quickly 'cause we got one or two minutes before we go. So I'll give you my top rundowns of I what I think is important in a CVM portfolio. And then you can give me yours. We can do top five and we can. Know I if I, 'cause I've gone first.

If I'm stealing all the good ones, you can still say them. So number one on the CV, which I think is so important is you touched upon it. First and foremost is actually spell checking the thing. It takes one minute, but when you are writing the document, you are in the zone. If you're anything like me, there's gonna be typos all over the place.

And what also, when you reread the document, because you understand what you mean, your brain doesn't pick up the typos, so you've gotta give it to someone else to show. That's number one. The second one, I think, is this important to do good graphic [00:33:00] design, the clean, minimal. If in doubt, I wouldn't go too crazy one way or the other.

No one wants like a big, colorful black background that's gonna cost loads to print and stuff. I think something clean, elegant, white backgrounds are probably a good starting point, and the third bit that I always say is as, which you touched upon beautifully, is editing things down because no one wants a big essay and oh yeah.

The last one that I think always people forget about is that they do a CV and they save it and they go, Stephen Drew's CV, version 1 20 20. And then it's like you're gonna send that piece of rubbish out. You gotta name it properly. Everyone forgets that. Oh, they export it in a million resolution, and then it gets clogged up people's inboxes.

So you gotta get the balance. But

Vanessa Cazaubon: gonna, I'm gonna jump off to the portfolio, right?

Oh my gosh. This one I've gotta [00:34:00] tell you on your portfolio, make sure, especially if you are showing construction drawings or any detail drawings, you can read the annotations actual detail.

Stephen Drew: yes.

Vanessa Cazaubon: You are not just showing the image, you are showing that you can understand the layers and materials that is needed to put this together. So make sure the text is actually readable on your portfolio when you're doing your drawings. Okay. Obviously that's more Architectural technology rather than Architecture because we do more concept with the Architect, doesn't it?

Stephen Drew: Exactly.

Vanessa Cazaubon: make sure you can read the text of portfolio. If you are going to do any construction drawings, you can just give them the actual, if you have permission, you can do the actual P D F. You don't necessarily have to shrink it down and

that not a presentation, it's actually your example, a sample of your work.

[00:35:00] So make sure you can read it, make sure that the resolution is clean and. I'm even more of the Architectural technology. Sorry. That is what again,

similar to what you had the CV about it being the clean cut color. What usually is great with I, I felt is if you have a dial about the particular softwares, like how strong or weak or whatever. That's great.

Stress always good. Always putting your softwares, always putting in your extra certifications. Short courses, always put that in there. Another tip would be do your research on the role. And by doing your research on your role, you will understand what is required and then you will be able to understand, oh, have I done this before?

And make sure that's somewhere in your experience. Demonstrated. If it's not in the CV, definitely demonstrate that in your portfolio. The whole point of this material is to show what you can do. Okay. [00:36:00] I think that's another tip. Again, I think, those basic ones. You said Steve, you've stolen them, to be honest,

Stephen Drew: I did. I went first. That wasn't very gentlemanly.

Vanessa Cazaubon: portfolio and the graphics and seeing the text, I dunno, I can't get enough of that.

Honestly, I cannot get enough. Make sure that absolute, I wanna see the 2025.

Stephen Drew: That's right. It, you've gotta be able to read it. I think it's so important. We our jobs have been made easier because we've had one or two people that have. And I put in a few comments as well. So SAA says, I've had this conversation with someone and asked them, how long is your portfolio? And they said 60 pages.

And I said, it is not a design and access statement. Portfolios should be 20 pages or less. And CV three pages max. I totally agree. I think that's a really good guideline point. It can be less than 20. Maybe 21 in the max. However, that's a really good rule of thumb on the portfolio. If you haven't got your point across in 20 [00:37:00] pages, you almost risk the chance that you're gonna lose people because they're gonna go on further and get, not that impressed with it.

Vanessa, you had a point to say to that.

Vanessa Cazaubon: Question, Steve, tell me, share with us.

I have my views, but I just wanna see what your views are. What's views p.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Vanessa Cazaubon: Sharing your portfolio online

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Vanessa Cazaubon: having it in a p d because when you have it online, you can have more control. But what's your,

Stephen Drew: mean like a website, Vanessa? Is that what you're thinking? Oh, okay. Oh, you've really opened up the Pandora's box. It's I think that. I am always cynical and that's the key word I'd say of how the person is going to view the document, how much time they're gonna have, how much restrictions.

So where I'm going with this is that a lot of companies I've worked with from recruitment want the [00:38:00] CV, the portfolio, and if it's not there, they don't see it. And so I've met a lot of people have these beautiful websites. Amazing. And. Sometimes they get, don't get looked at. However, sometimes, especially more in the BIM digital world where the employers are more open to this stuff because they're quite techy, sometimes they will look at that website.

So my view is that this, the CV portfolio should stand on its own. However, it's okay to still have a website if you want, or a QR code, but as long as you realize that there's a chance that they might not get there. So you can have your beautiful website that is probably good for your own personal brand Anyways.

A lot of companies though, will steal or want a P D F, or even worse, some companies still print out portfolios. All these trees that are getting cut down. I'd like to look at them digitally. However, when you're printing, it goes back to what you talked about. If [00:39:00] Vanessa, are the drawings gonna come out?

Okay, are they smudged? How is this pdf? So we've got a lot of restrictions. So my view is, Conquer the P D F. Just get that done. And then if you want to do the cool extra stuff, do it for yourself. Be proud of it. Maybe you can even show it in the interview. You just can't rely on it. Does that make sense though?

Is that

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah. Because remember you, you did touch on personal branding a lot of advice is, have your portfolio online, make sure it's accessible and people can check you out and so on. So I would hone it back and think about what it's that you want to accomplish to make that decision whether or not to have a website or go online because.

Are you a leading profession, i e a sustainability consultant, but have those projects [00:40:00] as evidence? Then you may decide to have a website, but if, or a director you may or may not. It depends upon you, your profession, your niche, and all of those things. It's not a paintbrush effect.

That's what I.

Stephen Drew: I agree.

Vanessa Cazaubon: I think some people have their stuff online, and I think it's great. You have those portfolio books where you go through, that's fantastic. That's great. But again, it's dependent upon what you're trying to accomplish and who you are trying to get a job for and what position. The higher level you are, the probably less you'll need a website necessarily.

But again, it depends on your professional. I e If you're project manager, you're not really gonna be a website. It depends on your position. I personally say and agree with you, definitely you are in the construction industry and you deal with the drawings, you deal with illustration or presentations or anything like that, or showing the project that you've worked on.

Definitely have the P D F, that is your bread and butter. So I concur with you there, Steven. In terms of online, it's an extra bonus. It's [00:41:00] great. Unless you are actually leading a movement,

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Vanessa Cazaubon: Or Yeah, being a leader again, that will divert more into personal branding then. Yeah, definitely go for it. Do you understand?

So it, it's good, but I think the key thing I wanted everyone to hear is the fact of timing. So when recruit for directors, remember you are not just the only person they might be looking at. So ensuring that you've caught that iron consistency, P D F will secure that. Having, even though you may think it's a link or a click, it's a diversion.

And unless you're doing graphics design, then obviously stay in that field and show that. So I kind, varies, but I wanted to I think you hit on it now.

Stephen Drew: There we go. Now I I've been talk, I've been talking about it for too many years, Vanessa, so don't worry. I think it'll end up on my tombstone. How many c e v pages should be I. In a CV M portfolio. But don't worry, there's a lot, there's a lot of worse things you can get known for. While we were speaking, soda laughed about his naming conventions on the p d files saying he used [00:42:00] to put a CV Title one for recruiter, one called CV two. Now don't don't worry soda. You've learned your lesson. It's all good. It's all about improving. I think if anyone's has a doubt, good to do your name with Dash cvn portfolio. That's enough,

Vanessa Cazaubon: That's it.

Stephen Drew: That. That's fine. Keep it clean. Francis says, I always work in my portfolio in my spare time. I always thought it was important to improve and show the knowledge I've acquired.

Well done Francis. I completely agree. It's also can be quite rewarding and equally if you do it a little bit at the time, then say now. There's a shift in the current company you are or whatever. It's not such a panic that you have to update a lot of work. So I think it's good to keep it in the background unless, for example, you're the business owner and then hopefully if the business goes down, so that you too, and yeah, you will be updating that CV.

But it also says, Francis says he's curious. He ask a question. Okay, Vanessa, we've got a concentrate. [00:43:00] My goodness, I've gotta think. I says, I'm curious to Showcasing the work stages rather than the final product is equally important. I believe in demonstrating skills right from the start of the project is often crucial.

Then highlighting the ultimate end result. Considering the current perspective. Ooh, interesting. My thoughts on this are, if we fit, I'm gonna think about it in terms of the RIBA a stages. It's very good in a portfolio to showcase a full breadth of experience and skill sets. So for example, what I would say, Francis, if everything was front end, that you had a new portfolio, you're in danger of we, the perception is that.

You're geared towards front end, not set, not technical. I'd like to see a flow of it, so you may be your most recent project. If you've done all R B A stages, it might be quite good to show the planning, the technical few images of construction and therefore that I understand there's an Architect that you've done.

Old, old stages. you [00:44:00] might want to showcase certain aspects of stages more on other projects. You can use that as your discretion. However, what I've learned from in terms of recruitment, usually the experience which is more sought after is less. Design is usually technical and construction with a bit of design.

So Francis, I recommend that you cover all stages, especially on a on your most recent project, if possible. I think it's crucial to show an overview. The equally, like you said, it's good to show the overview of the process rather than the ultimate result. And I wouldn't show the front, I wouldn't show the end.

So that's what I would do. But Vanessa, do you have a thought on that? Would you

Vanessa Cazaubon: I have it different because I think that really works with Architecture. But within BIM you can do two different ways. So if you are BIM Manager information manager, you don't necessarily have to do the whole flow,

right?

You can quote the projects. I've worked on [00:45:00] the three D model and certain areas like that.

Whereas if your Architectural technology, again, we don't wanna see the concepts or the design part. We wanna see the construction drawings, so the drawings that were issued out, or technical area. So maybe you was working on a staircase. So we wanna see the details for that. That could even be a niche of yours.

I'm telling you the niche thing is a good thing. So I think for the portfolio in terms of the technical Architectural technologist, BIM, it would vary. It's okay to show the final product in BIM. But if you are more of a BIM Coordinator and working as Architect technician, you must show the technical side.

And we don't need the beginning and we don't need the end. We just need to show your competence. So I think when you said, I believe demonstrating the skills, that's obviously what we wanna see, and that's where the creme is. So yeah you're spot on. On, yeah. Spot on. Good.

Stephen Drew: That, wow, what a fantastic perspective. So thank you for sharing that. That's really interesting. Sonder [00:46:00] actually agrees that acts for BIM, Vanessa is bang on the money.

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant, and that's why people should get in contact with you about it, which we will touch on in a minute. Now be, just before we go, I'll do a quick speed round where Andrea says, what about the format should it be for Landscape for CVM portfolio?

What I would say, Andrea, is don't worry too much about should it be landscape, should, does it need to be free pages? The advice that we're given here is is. Indicative of what we are thinking. However, you can deviate from it a bit. I tend to think that CV should be portfolio and that a portfolio is probably gonna be landscape.

However, you might make it a way that works. These are typically how I see them working. But it doesn't mean you can't experiment. If in doubt though, go with what people mostly do, which is. Portrait for CV and Landscape for portfolio.

Vanessa Cazaubon: I've got a question, Steve,

Stephen Drew: Okay, go on.

Vanessa Cazaubon: very [00:47:00] short and quick. Is it okay, this is a thing that I've picked up. Is it okay to have your CVM portfolio in one document or as like a.

Stephen Drew: we got the, we. I.

Vanessa Cazaubon: It's almost like a storyline, is it okay?

Stephen Drew: Wow. It's controversial. So as we have a mutual friend and colleague Counter Funnel. She prefers them together. I prefer them separate. Now, there I so like this, or even like the way you said this, we're all, everyone has different perspectives. There's no wrong answer. If a good CV in portfolio, which covers the basics of the CV really well and goes into a portfolio and it flows together.

Would I? Is that good? Yes, I think great. Maybe the drawings are really big, or like you said, you know you are an Architectural technologist. Do you really need to spend a lot of time graphic designing the portfolio? Would it make sense? A small page and then big drawings no separate, so I like to use it case by case.

[00:48:00] I think that you just have to be like, how does my portfolio look? How does my CV, should I separate them? Put them together. Maybe you are one of those creative people that makes it flow through, and that can be okay too. But, so that's my thought. It's, I'm not giving you one answer or the other. I'm saying It's okay.

It can be either basically.

Vanessa Cazaubon: the point we trying to make. Again, it might work that CV or it might work portfolio and CV. Again, if you're interior designer, it might be more advantage to have them together off

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Vanessa Cazaubon: so it depends on your profession and so us saying what format to landscape or portrait, it's really dependent on your profession.

But ultimately must be able to communicate your skills. Okay.

Stephen Drew: Yeah I agree. I agree more. So we're running out of time, but questions are coming in. We'll do a quick speed round. Jordan Harris says [00:49:00] One big issue with digital portfolios is device optimization, phone versus laptop and screen. I agree. The amount of directors I know will open up something on

Vanessa Cazaubon: That.

Stephen Drew: on their mobile phone, and the taxi, it crashes out, all that stuff.

You are right. You have to factor these things in. And the last question I'll be on here. There's a big one, which I'm gonna condense, which says, what's the difference between a portfolio between a project Architect or a more senior position lead through associate, and what should be highlighted the most to be considered senior while senior architects and industry title where.

It's not a legal title, as the a r b basically says the legal title is Architect. Then you've got Project Architect and some companies, senior Architect number companies. So it means different to different places. I do think you could put senior Architect on your CV. But a what's the difference in the portfolio between the Project Architect and the senior Architect leading to an associate?

Good question. When you are an associate. Your career's gonna, you've probably done five, 10 [00:50:00] years to get where you are. It's gonna be very intricate. A lot of the videos that I do online are more general towards students or an Architect in their career. It's very nuanced to further you get in your career.

And that might be the point where actually you do seek out a career consultant, which I can do, but also Vanessa can do. And on that point, Vanessa, you are around, you are available to help. So if someone's got a niche example, a bit like the anonymous gentleman before where he is thinking, my goodness, how do I dissect my, my, my career and work things out?

What do you do, Vanessa? Where can people find you?

Vanessa Cazaubon: Yeah, so you can shoot me on there on the LinkedIn website. Just click it. And then book a consultation with me on my page and then we can have a one-to-one conversation and I can support you in moving forward and getting that job that you want. I'm super excited. It gives me a [00:51:00] buzz and I'm just, I'm for you when you come see you getting a job because I'm like that.

So yeah, let's do that. If that's something that you want or interested in, can shoot me there.

Stephen Drew: I agree. I'm one over. So Vanessa, your task in between career coaching is to get me up to date on BIM. I haven't done it for 2014. So you got your work cut out for you. All jokes aside though, do get in contact with Vanessa. Hopefully this will give you an understanding of her thoughts and experience, and I love the fact that she's worked in industry like myself.

I do think it really helps, especially when it comes to career coaching. It is good to have advice from someone that's been there and done it. Messed up the BIM model and also can offer you advice on your career. So get in contact with Vanessa and thank you for tuning in. I really appreciate it.

Vanessa. Thank you for being here as well. Stay on the stage one second. I'm gonna end the livestream in a minute, but for you that tuned in and answer, ask all these questions, it really makes this much [00:52:00] more fun for me and I'm sure for Vanessa as well, do get in touch with her. And equally, if you wanna have a look at some of the resources on the Architecture Social.

Com do check them out. I will put a link there for Vanessa as well if you wanna get in contact with her. And yeah, there'll be more content coming soon. I'm not too sure what I've got scheduled, but I know there's some cool stuff coming. So I will update you as soon as possible on that. Have a lovely Friday and stay in touch.

I'm gonna end the live stream right now. Take care everyone. Bye-bye.