Navigating Architecture: Chris Hartiss Reflects on Career, Challenges, and Change

0018 - Christopher Hartiss
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. I am Stephen Drew from the Architecture Social, and I'm really lucky to be joined by Christopher Hartis here. Hi, Chris. How are you today? Hi, Stephen. I'm good. Thank you. How are you? I'm okay. It's a bit of a strange time. As we're recording this, this is the day after Boris has just said we're all going back into lockdown, but rather than us focusing about being stuck at home, like chickens in hen houses.

I think it would be great. We've got great company and Chris, you've had a fantastic career in architecture over the years. We, well, yeah, of course. Right. I choked from the bookshop to the, for, to bookshop to barracks and Prince Charles and everything along the way. So do you want it for anyone that hasn't met you before, Chris?

I do want to say a little bit about yourself, who you are,

Chris Hartiss: and I can do that. So I've been working in architecture since 1998. I actually finished my part two in [00:01:00] 1995 and we're going to come back to that little gap shortly, but I qualified as an architect in 2000. I then went to Squire and Partners in 2001 and stayed there for 18 and a half years.

All the way up from a project architect, I was taking, I was, my first job was services and structure coordination on a residential building, which was which was great. But I worked my way up through the business and ended up being a director by the time I left. I left not because I was unhappy at all there.

I left because I wanted to just see what else was happening in the world. And I decided the best thing to do for me would be to go and be a client. So I went and joined an organization as a head of design. So basically working with architects again, but from the other side of the fence. So briefing architects and kind of helping them Deliver what we needed them to do.

But in parallel to all of that, I've also been teaching. I teach at Westminster and at UEL. I also sit on the Wandsworth council design review panel. And of course I help you with the architecture social as well. I'm helping mentor [00:02:00] students. I really believe in the future and, and helping people who are further behind me in the career queue.

So yeah, you could say I've been doing a lot of different things.

Stephen Drew: Very So that's, it's quite a, quite an interesting career, definitely. And we will, we will jump into it, but I, I do on that point in terms of what you do on social, I think it's great, for instance, how much mentorship and kind of helping out students on the platform.

That you've done. I, and I guess that's something that you've enjoyed as well, in terms of management roles and career when you were at Squires, you mentored a lot of part ones and twos, right?

Chris Hartiss: Absolutely. It's, it's always been really important to me to, to help pass on some of the knowledge and experience that.

That I've gained in all the years that I've been around I've hopefully still got some years left, but you know, I've got a lot of years behind me and you know, it's, whilst times are different now to how they used to be, of course that's just stuff that I've learned along the way. And you know, I, I, I literally enjoy nothing more than, than helping people understand [00:03:00] the kind of world they're moving into and the kind of world they're in perhaps a little bit sometimes just.

Benefit of some of that experience. And that's why I do the teaching on the side. It's a really good connection between practice being a client as well. Most recently being an architect and college life. I mean, all those things for me are all joined together. There's no, there's no kind of difference between any of those worlds that they're just, we're all in the same business here of designing and producing buildings.

And you know, they're all functions within that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's interesting. I remember. When I went into architecture, I had a friend and he went, Oh yeah, you were always going to go into architecture. And I was like, what are you on about? How did you know that? And he's like, he used to draw scribbles of buildings all the time.

And, and, and what I'd be quite keen to know, Chris, do you remember the first time you kind of fancied going into architecture or you had that itch? To become an architect.

Chris Hartiss: I do. I absolutely remember. In fact, my mum presented me with some photos the other day, remind me of almost exactly the moment.

Honestly, this is really weird. So I was eight years old and my grandparents decided they [00:04:00] want to build themselves a new house in the front garden of the house that they lived in. And they had all these drawings drawn up as you would do by an architect and they were showing them to me. I was eight years old, you know, so there I was in the living room with them.

the the old house that we're going to demolish. And I said to them who did these drawings? I thought they were going to say, you know, Fred or Mary or somebody. And they actually said that was the architect. And I said, Oh, okay. These look really cool. I'd quite like to be an architect. So from the age of eight, I kind of had this idea.

I was kind of fascinated by drawings. Basically, I was really interested in, in how we use drawings to kind of codify and communicate. And that's kind of been a thread all the way through my professional life as well. But I mean, literally from that moment, you know, I decided that I, I wanted to be involved in the business of drawing things.

So not building things, but drawing things and, and passing that onto people to build things.

Stephen Drew: Little did your grandparents know that they were going to be your first client, right? Well, they [00:05:00] were never my clients, thank you, that would have been disastrous. That's what they call a practice in architecture, right?

You've got to let yourself off your eight years old. All right. So, so the sketches are coming out when you were eight. And so where did you, where did you go to university, Chris, as part one?

Chris Hartiss: I would, well, this is kind of what I wanted to talk about a bit today. I I didn't go to an amazing university at the time.

I mean, there's a lot better university now, but at the time I went, it really was pretty low down the list. And the reason that happened to be absolutely honest is because when I was at school, I was Basically doing lots of other things apart from schoolwork. I wasn't brilliant at school. You know, I wasn't amazing academically.

I was always distracted by pop music. I still am. And you know, basically I was doing too many other things to be concentrating on school. I know this is really terrible stuff to be sending a postcard. I was really not that interested in being very good at school. So when it came to my A levels and to choosing university degrees, I remember going to careers counselor and saying I want to be an architect.

And they literally just laughed and went, okay, forget it. You know, you just haven't got the, you know, [00:06:00] you're not going to get the grades as you're not going to get in anywhere. So I going to do about this? And I went off after my A levels, which I basically tanked at, they were awful. I got one A level. I went and got a job as a T boy in an architect's office.

A T boy. I used to be in an architect's office, basically so that I could just be in the office and I could just see what architects did. And of course, you know, that occasionally they. Gave me a piece of tracing paper and a pen and said, okay, you have a go at some lettering or some drawings or something.

And I'd have a little go at that and made a real mess of it, but I used to go out on site with them and I got exposure to the, to the culture of architecture at a very early age, you know, before, I mean, all my mates had gone to university because they all got good grades, but I hadn't. So I stayed at home.

The advantage was I earned money for a year. Brilliant, you know, money in the bank, but, you know, I saw into this world of architecture and I thought actually it was, it was a make or break year for me. I could have gone there for that year and realized, Oh, actually architecture is terrible. I really don't want to do this, but actually it had the other effect.

You know, I realized it [00:07:00] absolutely was what I wanted to do. And unfortunately, because my grades weren't good I didn't have a lot of choice in where I went to university. But what really helped was having that year out, because I had stuff in my portfolio that was, that was slightly different to sort of A level art and stuff.

And I was a slightly more interesting person, probably, hopefully, than some of the other people on the course. So basically I went a year later than everybody else having had a year in an office. And it I think was a really valuable thing to do. It really was.

Stephen Drew: There's loads of ways to go about it, isn't there?

And yeah, I kind of I remember I jumped, I went to the University of Westminster and I had a similar thing where I think the grades to get in at the time was CCD. And that's all changed in, in recent years, things completely changed. But ironically. Now the University of Westminster is quite a famous university.

I actually really enjoyed my time at Manchester University and it's quite interesting, different universities have different styles and what you can take from it. And I, I tend to think that Manchester's approach to design from, from my [00:08:00] perspective is that they kind of let me experiment a little bit more.

There was less of a house style at the time with the tutors and. The, the analogy that my teacher would use is that he liked to let us experiment. And if like a flock of sheep, we were in the field. And if we got too close to the electric fence, he would pull us back and make sure we don't get electrocuted, but he thought it was important that we go off and learn rather than being.

Wrapped up in wool or something. Do you know? Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Hartiss: Absolutely. So yeah, I went off to this university that isn't a great university, but you know, it gave me a good basis and you know, what it did was I got a degree, you know, I, I, I studied architecture and I got my degree. I got my part one again, not a brilliant part one because I was too busy getting drunk and going to nightclubs and listening to music.

And I know, I'd say I'm sort of the wrong person. I know. We all did it. We all did it a little bit. That's, that's part one's about, isn't it? Yeah, the slight problem was I didn't do it a little bit. I did it a lot. So I did it a lot. And so I got [00:09:00] to the end of my degree. I finished my degree. I passed my degree just about.

And I thought, Oh, brilliant. You know, I, At least I've got my part one, then I thought, Oh, great. You know, obviously what I can do now is what all part ones do. I can go out into the world. Everyone's going to want me. They're all going to want a part one student and I will get a job in an architect's office because I've worked for this time before and I had my degree.

I thought, yeah, why not? Of course I must be like the best part one in the world. But the problem was. In 1989, when this was happening, there was a horrible recession going on and the whole economy just disappeared. People stopped building things. Architects everywhere were just going bust and laying people off, and there were basically no opportunities.

So With my tail between my legs, I went back home to live with my parents. I'd been away, you know, in living in nightclubs basically for three years and finally arrived back at my parents house. Hadn't seen the light of day in three years. Lay on the sofa for about two months and then finally my dad said, okay, This is just too much.

You need to get down to the job center, get yourself a job. I don't care what it is, just get yourself a job. And I was like, okay, [00:10:00] well, whatever, you know, you're my dad, I have to do what you say. So I went out to the job center and again, they kind of, I walked in and I said, yeah, I want to be an architect.

And they kind of laughed because there were no jobs in architecture then. But they said, but if you're interested in construction, we have this really interesting job that's just come up. And I was like, okay, go on then. What is it? And they said, well, you need to go down to this construction site in this little village that wasn't far from where I lived and go and talk to this man and he'll tell you what you need to do.

And I was like, brilliant. I've got a job. This is amazing. This is my year out. It's a job. Turned up at this construction site and the guy said what we want you to do is hold the end of the tape measure when we set out concrete slabs. And I said, that's fine. I said, I can read your tape measure.

He said, no, no, no, hang on a minute. You won't be reading the numbers. You're going to hold the end that has the zero on it. You're going to be at the zero end of the tape measure. We don't trust you to read out the numbers because, you know, you're just some guy off the street. But basically I got really into this job and It was, it was a civil engineering site.

It wasn't a construction site. You know, we were building a sewage works, would you believe, but it was really early days. [00:11:00] And what the job entailed me and the setting out engineers was to take drawings that the designers had drawn and to try and set out the site and to set out those slabs so that they could build from the drawings.

So. As you can imagine, actually, I mean, in retrospect, this is massively valuable, but even at the time, what this, this was really important for me, because I was being given drawings of the nature that I had previously been drawing myself, and I was being told, okay, what does this drawing mean? How are you going to interpret Interpret and interpolate the information from it and go and construct something.

It was just an amazing thing to do for a year, actually. So my year out, I was not an architect at all. I was a sort of really, really low down the rung civil engineer. But what it meant was I got this great experience of being on site and and looking at the drawings that other people had produced and being able to see what, what, what a mess they'd made of them, basically.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely resonates with right now, Chris, because one of the reasons that we, we [00:12:00] started talking as well. And then that common ground that I had was that when I graduated my part one, it was the 2009 recession and we literally, I literally graduated and there was absolutely new jobs.

No jobs around. And it was about how you go about that. And we're in a bit of a similar situation now where it's not particularly easy for anyone looking for a job, let alone a part one. Now you go about that. And I think it's a really nice to hear that because you're in the, the, the project site. You know, you're going to talk about a bit later that you went on that, actually, it was definitely humble grassroots.

You were literally holding the measuring tape with the zero point. I mean, that is the best, yeah, yeah, that's the best analogy ever. So zero is a hero, right? Come on. It's, it's a, it's a nice story because. Not everyone gets [00:13:00] the, the part one role they dream of right now. And then it can almost be, you feel, it could feel like a failure to some, right?

Whereas you can go about it and still get where you want to go. If you're practical resourceful and you put yourself out there, basically. Right.

Chris Hartiss: You've got to be resourceful. You're absolutely right. You've got to be a bit gutsy and get out there and do things and take some risks, you know, do some things that you wouldn't have normally dreamt of.

You know, if you'd said to me during my degree, you're going to be on a building site in a year wearing welly boots and a fluorescent jacket, holding the zero end of a tape measure. I just said, absolutely no way. I don't want to do that. But you know, During that experience, I actually learned so much, you know, because it wasn't a million miles away from what we did.

It was just seeing what we did as architects from a different perspective. And of course, that is an incredibly valuable thing. Okay. And it was enough to get me back into, you know, it didn't matter that I hadn't worked for an architect because I got in to do my part too. London South Bank then as a consequence of my degree, obviously the year experience I'd had in the office before I went to do my [00:14:00] degree and the experience on site.

I mean, I remember the interview at you at South Bank, they kind of said, Oh yeah, you've got really, really strange experience, haven't you? And I said, well, yeah, sorry about that. And they said, no, that's kind of interesting. That's, you know, let's, let's see, you know, how you do with a part two. So I got onto my part two.

And surprisingly enough, you'll be very surprised to hear that during my part two, I also spent quite a lot of time in nightclubs and very little going on here, Chris. There's a bit of a theme going on, I'm afraid. So, yeah, I spent a lot of time in nightclubs, quite a lot of time lying in bed and a little bit of time in the architecture studio.

But I really got into my part two and my part two at South Bank was amazing. You know, I was allowed to explore all sorts of really interesting things, a bit like, you know, your experience at Manchester. We were, you know, we. Could do all sorts of things that I hadn't just never dreamed of. So I basically have this very technical, very sort of dry part one.

And then my part two was really liberating. It was very freeing and very very theory based really sort of interesting stuff. And actually when it came to the end of that, I [00:15:00] thought, this is amazing. I've, you know, I've learned about all this philosophy and stuff and, you know, learning all these really clever things.

And I thought when I got to the end of my part two, well, it would be a real waste to go and be an architect. Why would I go and be an architect? Now I've learned all this amazing stuff and I can be a philosopher. And then because of course, you can't get a job as a philosopher. I basically got a job in a bookshop.

I was working part time for a bit during my part two in the architecture department of an art bookshop that's no longer there on Charing Cross Road. What enabled me to do, of course, was just be around all these amazing architecture books the whole time. And I met loads of amazing architects who's come into the bookshop and buy their books.

And it kind of, again, gave me this different view on the world that I was in, you know, it's been in as a student. And as a consequence of that, I managed to get a full time job at the ICA, which is the Institute of Contemporary Arts down on the Mall at the time all the YBAs, the young British artists were really hip and cool.

So Damien Hirst just sort of arrived on the scene, Rachel Whiteread, Tracy Emin used to come into [00:16:00] the shop that I used to run with all these people. Really tatty bits of art and say, do you want these? And I'd be like, no, Tracy, go away. It's Tracy. The one with the beds, Chris. Am I thinking the right one?

Yeah. She is the one with bed. So yeah, she used to come in and basically I ran the bookshop and she would come in with all this sort of old tat that she'd made and say, would you sell it? And I really, really regret not buying it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. You, you told Tracy it's old tat.

Chris Hartiss: To be fair at the time, it was a bit of a tap, but you know, she's got a lot better, obviously.

So again, you know, I had this really lovely experience where I was working in a bookshop, which meant that I was basically dealing with members of the public all the time and people coming in and saying to me, I've got this book. I started reading it and it tells me about these other things. What can you direct me to?

And I used to have to kind of use my knowledge of this stuff, whether it was architectural philosophy or art or whatever. To direct people to other things. But of course, what it was teaching me was just how to deal with the public, how to deal with people that weren't other architects, how to deal with [00:17:00] people in the world who had slightly different interests.

So again, a really great experience. And only really after about two and a half years or something, I kind of thought, well, I did do that degree and I did do that post grad course and I sort of, maybe I should try being an architect for a bit. And thankfully at the time we weren't in recession and I, someone took a chance on me in a small office and I got my first job in architecture in 1998, I think it was and to be honest, I've worked in architecture ever since.

So. You know, I think, I think it is a really important thing to say to people right now, you know, that if you can get some work, some experience, some kind of life experience that's related to what we do as architects, but isn't necessarily architecture, that can still fit your career arc, that can still really help where you're going, and it can really help you become a sort of fuller person.

I really believe that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I mean, when I was studying my part one, I couldn't afford everything. My parents were really helpful, but I come from a humble roots background, [00:18:00] right? They, my parents working full time transport me where they could, but I needed to work basically because I'm Westminster London was quite expensive.

So I too worked, I worked in waitrose and it was the same thing where I was like, I'm not going to go there. I'm studying architecture. So I was all high my dad said exactly the same thing. He was like, Get your, get your arse down the road to the job center. I don't want to hear any of this lip. Don't forget where you are.

I know what you're like, get down there. So then I went to the, I went to Waitrose, I worked there and it was the same thing of actually, it was really helpful dealing with customer service, dealing with the real world, dealing with odd requests, things going wrong, getting to work on time. And the same thing, making sure that I had a shave because I was too hungover before going to work.

You know, all them things you look back now. You almost laugh and you cringe, but it was so important. And then, okay, you had Tracy, but I can double up on this actually. We so Keira Knightley, I told her where the ice cream was because I worked in Waitrose Marlabong. There [00:19:00] you go. You didn't know that about me, did you Chris?

I want to know what flavor Keira likes. I do you know what? I think, I can't remember. I think she was just the ice cream, but you know, I remember though, I remember being really short. She was really nice. She was really short and I got one or two more for you. Okay. Darren Brown, Darren Brown. Did he disappoint you behind the counter or something?

No, but I was scared to speak to him. I was like, Hi Darren, and so I was very wary of what he said. And Dale Winton, do you remember Supermarket Sweep when you were ill or hungover? Yeah. Yep, Dale Winton, bless his soul. So I'm going to top all of those. When

Chris Hartiss: I worked at the ICA running the bookshop I was there one day and this little tiny woman walked in with sort of bonkers, dark hair and these kind of clothes that had spikes sticking out of it.

And she just looked terrifying. She looked really weird. Didn't know, couldn't see her face, but she turned around and came to the counter. And this is going to make me, this is going to make me sound really old now as well because lots of people who listen to this won't know who this is. But [00:20:00] anyway it turns out that it was Björk.

The, the Oh, I know Björk! Exactly!

Stephen Drew: I think she's a witch though. She's not

Chris Hartiss: She was

Stephen Drew: very Some of

Chris Hartiss: us

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I love her music. Her music is enchanting, almost like hypnotic though, isn't it? Yeah,

Chris Hartiss: yeah, she's a pro she's a true artist. And you know, she was in there in her spiky coat, and she wanted some book or other, and she gave me her phone number and her address, because she wanted me to post it to her.

And I was like, oh my god, I went home that night, and I was like, look, I've got Björk's phone number! And everyone was like, let's ring her up! And I was like, we can't ring her up, I'll get a snack. Yeah, it's like, I just wanted a book. What are you doing? Yeah, why are you hassling me? You know, the big lesson for me about all of this was that, you know, for me, there's always needed to be life outside architecture.

And as I've just said a number of times, you know, there was plenty of life outside architecture when I was at college, but all the way through my education and, you know, all my life, I've always wanted there to be other things going on. And I know that everybody always says they've got other things going on, but you know, [00:21:00] I, I never lived with other architects when I was a student.

I always lived with, with other people. Other people doing other courses and I just thought that was kind of important thing to do. I then refused to marry an architect and married somebody who isn't an architect because loads of architects marry other architects. It's terrible, terrible. Yes.

Stephen Drew: Yes.

Chris Hartiss: I didn't marry an architect and lots of our friends are not architects.

Now, lots of them are obviously, but you can't do the job we do for as long as I have without making lots of friends in the business as well. And I met loads of people who are lifelong friends throughout my career as well. But there's always been a background of people who do other things. And I think that's a really important a really important thing.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that another good, cause I used to run my own business as well. And I always used to make excuses not to travel. I'd be like, Oh, Chris, I'm too busy. I can't go travel. I can't do this. Can't do that. I can't have a holiday. And I remember since I joined here, kind of even myself getting the work life balance.

You, it feels sometimes contradictory. I advise people so much from work life balances, and then you end up working [00:22:00] yourself crazy hours. But actually me. Going on holidays last year, I went three, four, five places, which feels like a blessing now that we're in coronavirus world. There's so deeply enriched in and like where I agree with your point is what I would say is that even now, what I do in terms of recruitment, the studying architecture and being involved in that, that's kind of, it almost infiltrates my approach into the job I do now.

And what, and I would argue that people I meet. People that travel, people that have worked in a few places and have experienced maybe cultures that they're not interested in working or, and then cultures that they have, they're the more informed people that know what they want and end up working somewhere and doing really good stuff and being a long period of time.

And it's that, it's that, yeah, it's that kind of variety.

Chris Hartiss: I did. Sorry. I was just going to say another thing that I think is really important is to remember that nothing's forever as well. You know, especially I think going forward, I think there's distinct likelihood that people are going to have second and third careers in the future in a way that they just haven't, you know, that's not an [00:23:00] opportunity I've ever had.

But I think it's definitely going to be a possibility going forward. And people have just got that opportunity to do different things. And I've said, I used to, I used to say to people in interviews when I was interviewing them for jobs, look, come along and work for me, you know, Let's see how it goes for a year.

But if you want to do something else after a year, that's the best for you. You should go and do that. You know, I'm not going to make you stay here. You know, nothing is forever. If you don't feel this is working, then go and do something else. And I think I'd absolutely apply that to what's going on now.

As you say, people having to get alternative jobs just to pay the bills, people not getting their dream jobs. It's all, if you can make virtues out of those things, if you can find within those experiences, things that are beneficial. And believe me, there's beneficial. You've heard, you know, everyone's been listening to the ridiculous jobs we've had in our time.

You know, those things have helped us become the people we are and have helped us become the professionals we are. And there's value in those things. There absolutely is value.

Stephen Drew: I well said I think that's sound advice for anyone currently, I'm quite interested to [00:24:00] wind the clock past that when I met Dale Winton back to the era of Tracy's bed or Tracy coming in trying to sell you a few hobbles because what's interesting is we're talking about this period when you kind of, you were out there.

You you would work in jobs, you would gain an experience, you're kind of working out what you wanted to do in an organic way where you weren't overthinking it. So, so Squires and Partners, for people who are aware of them, it'd be quite familiar work. I reckon they're probably arguably one of the best architectural practices to work in the UK, maybe globally, right?

In my opinion, I think they're up there, but for anyone that's not familiar with Squires and Partners cause I think they're quite. A well respected global practice, so there's definitely a level of accolade there. So how did you transition from waking up on dad's couch to kind of going to Squires?

What was that little journey or was it a happy accident or did you wander in and make more tea? Or what happened? No,

Chris Hartiss: no. My team making days were over. I [00:25:00] knew how to draw. So that was a good thing. But basically I finished you know, I, I decided to, to not be a bookseller anymore and to stop being a philosopher.

And to get back into architecture, I got a job in a little office in Shoreditch, which at the time wasn't the cool, trendy place it is now. It was a kind of, I don't know, it was pretty grim really. But it's tiny little practice that were there. They took a chance on me, bless them. That was really kind of them because to be honest, if they hadn't done that in 1998, I may not be where I am today.

They took a chance on me. It was a small office. I just helped out on a few projects there, kind of mixed use that kind of stuff, just my stripes just did a bit more work, sadly made redundant from that job because they just, you know, it wasn't enough work. So, but I did. getting another job at a small design practice who are still going in Bermondsey.

Really run by two really sweet guys. Tiny little practice. They do really beautiful residential work. And I was able there to to just start to Develop my architectural personality, I suppose which, which actually to go back to what we've just been [00:26:00] saying in meshed with my personality personality, you know, I was able to be me in this place and work out who I wanted to be.

And I was able to work on some really nice projects from beginning to end. You know, that's the great thing about small practices that you can hear. That you can you can see something all the way through in the space of the year from beginning to end. And I, I just got some really good experience in the few years that I was there.

I got enough experience to get my part three, but what I thought about that practice was, oh, it's a little bit too small for me. You know, I'm going to outgrow it and I'm not going to be able to become there's, there's only like six people there or something. There weren't enough people to kind of to kind of go up the tree with.

So I decided to go for somewhere really commercial and I got a job at a very kind of commercial practice who did an awful lot of supermarkets, would you believe back today? And it was really, really dull work. And I just knew that that wasn't the right thing for me. You know, I kind of just thought, okay, this is wrong.

I've tried a really small boutique, he designed practice. It was really nice, but there was no career progression. I've now tried a commercial practice [00:27:00] where. They've just got no souls and they do really horrible work. And I, I spoke to a couple of people and they said, look, you should go and speak to Square and Partners because they're of a decent size.

They do decent scale work. They've got a design sensibility, but they're quite commercial. They're quite realistic about what it is that they do. And I thought, I've never heard of them. I don't know who that is. So I went along to the interview. And of course, yeah, they were really interesting. And for me, the whole time I was there, and I was there for 18 and a half years, they absolutely exemplified a very business like approach, a very professional approach to the practice of architecture, but.

totally underpinned at every turn by very, very fine design sensibility. So no decision was made on any other basis than design, but it was always underpinned by the business. And they would act in a very commercial way about things. We, part of my job was to make sure we were always making enough money and my projects were doing as well as they could and all that kind of stuff.

But we were designing. beautiful buildings along the way. And it was just, that's why I stayed there so long, because it was, it was what I needed. I [00:28:00] needed the design experience alongside the commerciality of a bigger organization. So absolutely. That's what they do.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. It's definitely always been of interest.

And what's quite interesting about architecture is that you hear over the time periods, these urban myths and stories, and I kind of. Romantically hope some of them I've heard about for instance, Zahra Adid, she owned you know, she owned her own practice. She had her own, it was, which was in the school.

And I've heard stories about Zahra Adid, rest in peace, whether they're right or not on the Tanai and what I've found with this choir is that one of my old bosses used to work there and he was like, it's brilliant because we own this. Bob, but the only problem is you would literally get your salary at the end of the month.

And it would be minus 700 pounds from all the money you spent in squires and partners bar.

Chris Hartiss: That was a bit of a problem. And the office they moved to in Brixton three years ago it has a bar on top of it as well, which is public as well, but yeah, exactly the same problem. You could leave your desk on a Friday when you got paid to go upstairs.

And spend everything you just earn in the bar quite, quite [00:29:00] easily.

Stephen Drew: It's a nice bar though, Chris. I've actually been up there as well. They managed to sneak me in at one point and I was really impressed. It's amazing. I think that going back to your point though, is the balance of, I think the design's excellent, but what's interesting about that kind of company culture is investing in golf courses, bars, owning properties, doing your own offices.

It's very commercially smart. And quite interesting

Chris Hartiss: for me that absolutely links to what we've been talking about as well, you know, having other interests, whether their business interests or personal interests alongside what you do as an architect is really important. So you know, scoring partners absolutely have invested in property themselves.

So they, they understand absolutely the pain of being a client. They understand. A development has to make money. If you're going to take a building and convert it into an office building or convert it into flats or whatever, you're taking a risk, you know, and, and they've done that with their own money.

They know what it feels like to be a client. And I think that equips them absolutely to be a really good practice of architects because they [00:30:00] understand what it's like to be a client as well.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's interesting. And the other thing when you're talking about, which is cause I, when I was a student, I was.

Absolutely adamant on being the next fountain, was it a fountain pen or fountain head kind of architect of doing the building and doing the all nights. And I was like, I'm going to make a difference, mom. And what's interesting now is that I never did my part three. And when I was in architecture, I had this really strange feeling of, there was this slight pressure, Chris, when I was a part two, that it was expected.

Oh, when are you going to do your part three, Steve? And. I had this really weird feeling that I liked architecture. I loved it. I loved what I've learned in the courses, but it getting my part free wasn't right for me. And now I realized that that's an okay feeling and I encourage anyone that has that feeling.

It's actually is okay. You can go into journalism in architecture. There's so many other careers you can actually, within architecture, become a BIM coordinator, a BIM manager, or there's so many other avenues to go. But [00:31:00] why I bring this up now is because. I find it quite funny. You're talking about you're waking up at three o'clock in the afternoon on the sofa and not sure where you were going with life.

And then you've kind of gone up so far and, and, and you've, you know, Chelsea barracks, fantastic projects, all this stuff. Right. Whereas I was quite driven and then I. I just didn't feel it was for me. So what was that point in your head when you were like, Oh, I'm going to get my part for you. When did you start, when did things slightly change or was, was it the outside influences coming in or did it happen organically this, oops, sorry, this kind of change over or this mindset?

Getting involved. For

Chris Hartiss: me

Stephen Drew: it was really

Chris Hartiss: important that all of the things that have happened to me, whether it was working on the building site, whether it was being a philosopher in a bookshop, whatever it was, they, they were all things that felt like the right thing to do at the time. You know, there was something organic about it.

And when I decided that I'd had enough of Being in the bookshop and wanted to go and be an architect. Fortunately, there were opportunities out there and I had to have a [00:32:00] little bit of self belief, but not be cocky about it. But I used to have to go to interviews and say, look, you know, this is who I am.

This is what I can do. This is what I want to do and to sort of push myself a little bit into into those kind of. Well, and to be honest, the same kind of thing happened to practice that, you know, the opportunities are there all circumstantially to some degree, the market's got to be doing well, you've got to have good clients in a practice, blah, blah, blah.

But if you're not the kind of person who puts yourself forward for those kind of positions in offices, you know, you won't get the opportunities, you know, you kind of if you want to do that. The opportunities are there. Now, some people don't want those opportunities and some people want to stay where they are and do what they do.

And I totally get that. And I've mentored a lot of people. I've worked with a lot of people over the years who, who are absolutely right to be doing what they do anyway. They don't need to go any further, but ambition is a funny thing. I never felt ambitious until I don't know, 10, 15 years ago, possible 10, 12 years ago, maybe.

And I said, well, okay, yeah, I do just want to get up the tree a bit here. I want to do more. I want to kind of. I realized I [00:33:00] think that I was actually not a bad manager, you know, management in architectural practices is something that's, that's not taught very well. It's, you know, people don't, it's taught by osmosis.

But I realized that I was quite good with people and quite good at managing people and hopefully quite good at getting the best out of them. And when I realized that, and I realized that some other people weren't very good at that, I thought, okay, well, you know, there's, there's a future here. I can kind of push that a bit and I could become somebody that goes up the tree a bit within a practice and, and And it has more responsibility for the practice as a, in a wider sense.

So yeah, the opportunities had to be there, but I think you have to decide that that's what you want to do. And some people don't, but I did.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And then I, I tell you what, well, I don't have regrets. I really did enjoy my time in architecture and that, and then, and I think an asset test was in the last year or two, cause one or two of the projects that I worked on, actually people started moving in, they completed.

And I found myself, Chris, being like, Oh yeah, in Wandsworth. I actually was involved in that, in that project and it was a really nice feeling because to actually [00:34:00] be involved in the physical in, in built environment in some shape or form, it's, it's, there's definitely something about it, no doubt whatsoever.

Chris Hartiss: The big thing for me, and I, I. So this is my leaving speech when I left squaring partners and I absolutely believe it. It's the way I was taught architecture and it's the way I practice it. We do this as a team, you know, we no longer in a time where the architect is the person who can have complete responsibility and stand back from the finished building and say, that is mine.

I mean, we've all done it together. There's a guy that screws things together on site. He's really important. I can't screw things together. He can. There are people that understand waterproofing in really technical ways that I just don't. There are people that can market things. There are people that can sell them.

There are people that can do, perform all sorts of functions. That that sit around what we do as architects. And as you were suggesting earlier, you know, you can do lots of things with an architectural education. I mean, actually, I was going to say, you were saying that if you don't get your Part 3, you can go and do something else.

I was going to say the opposite. I mean, there were lots of people who didn't have their Part 3s at [00:35:00] Squire and Partners. Who wanted them. We actually used to have a partner there who didn't have a Part 3. So, you know, it's absolutely possible, you know, because it's not, it's not the only thing you need. But it's equally possible to go and do.

All of those thousands of things that are related to the architecture of construction design worlds that we work within that aren't necessarily about designing the building, putting your pen on the piece of paper, but you, you're absolutely part of the team. And it's those teams that produce the buildings and the environments that we, that we live and work in.

And I think, you know, it's, it's, I still love this profession, you know, after all these years, and I've had way more years in it than you have. After all these years, I still absolutely get up in the morning because what we are doing is working together as a team to, to, to make this better world, whether that's designing little components, designing huge buildings, designing landscapes, whatever it is, you know, we are all working to, to design something better and that's what drives me.

Stephen Drew: It's interesting because I always think that I always used to joke that squires and [00:36:00] partners there's no point if someone, I always used to tease, but when people would be approached me looking for a job, and if they were actually at squires, I'd be like, do you sure you really want to leave?

Because the point I was like, don't come on, because I'm a big believer in recruitment. It's about finding out the crux of the problem. Why someone's looking and having a frank chat because it might be a temporary thing they feel. And what I'm going about this is that squires and partners are very conscious and poised, or even the way you're talking about it now, it's a team effort.

The team makes the building, you know, you, yeah, you might have a leadership role, but you, you're, you're guiding the team and you can't do you because of the scale of the buildings. I mean, we touched briefly upon Chelsea barracks. No way can one person do that. It requires competent architects and trusting people and also embracing someone's weaknesses with someone's strengths and knowing how to manage the process in a human way.

But that's where I think squires and partners are good. And I think that's where, and [00:37:00] what I tend to see a little bit, and this is what I'd love to hear your thoughts on is that I think architectural practices are more conscious about looking after architects and, and. And that actually, for instance, Strike Treadmill, they hired someone in particular within the company to improve everyone's quality of life, improve how people were and what they found is that once people, once they were looking after mental health and wellbeing in architecture practices, less people were taking sick days, more, you know, more people were staying, more people were enjoying it and people would work the hours that they want and the building would get better.

But I mean, have you seen a trend over the years? How company cultures are,

Chris Hartiss: Have changed. Yeah, definitely. I think that, as I said, you know, I've, I've always been really passionate about the sort of next generation and that next generation need nurturing and, and need teaching and, and, and helping to get, you know, basically it's, it's, you're helping someone to, to get where they want to go to.

And yeah, you can't do that unless you're looking after a whole [00:38:00] person. You need to be looking after people's mental health. You need to be looking after As far as you can, they're kind of the context for which they're coming from and, and doing all you can to support them. And, and yeah, absolutely, you know, to go back to the Chelsea Barracks to this is going off the point slightly, but, you know, I went there yesterday just to have a walk around because one of the things.

That a decision that was made really early on that, that was, you know, I was party to it was one of the decisions I helped to make was that there would never be any gates on that development and people could walk through it. I went back yesterday and walk through it. Just like I told all the members of the public in the consultations, I told the planners, I told the client, I told everybody, this is the kind of scheme we're going to have.

And they all said, oh, that's going to be very difficult to do. And we fought for it. We got a scheme where there are no gates. And yesterday. I walked around it and I walked onto the site without through any gates and I looked at the buildings and I looked at the landscape and I looked at all the, everything that we'd done there.

And I just felt an immense sense of pride for what I had contributed, but also the fact that I couldn't have done that without the 20 people in the team that I managed. But the [00:39:00] 200 in the design team that were wider than that, the 2000 built it. All of those people contributed to that. And, you know, I feel intensely proud of, of achievements like that.

And intensely proud of the team that I was part of to deliver those things. You know, I, I absolutely couldn't, there's no way I could have done those things away, of course not. We all did that. We all made decisions along the way. Being a designer is about making decisions, you know, what is the best thing for the project?

And everybody in my team made a decision about one thing or another, you know, All those decisions are there manifested in the finished development. That's, that's an incredible thing. That's why, again, that's why we do what we do.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Chelsea, Barry, we talk about it because it's probably the most prominent project that comes to mind.

Well, I'm quite interested. So after this, I'm going to have a quick Google. If I'm going to Google a building, Chris, that you're most passionate about, whether it's small little building or what have you, what comes to mind as one of your fondest memories or joys Oh, well, a building that I just like.

One that I built. So are you done? I want to see a Chris Hart [00:40:00] as proud as project.

Chris Hartiss: Oh, you can't ask me a question like that at this point in the conversation. I'm not prepared for that at all. Don't worry. I was just seeing if anyone comes to mind. The light, the career defining thing for me has been Chelsea Barracks.

And I think that what I would encourage people to do is to go there, you know, because what we wanted to do with that, what I really believed in and what we all believed in was, was something that you could walk around that, you know, we were building a piece of London. That's a huge responsibility, you know, just any kind of, any kind of intervention in the built environment is a massive responsibility because it's going to be there for some time.

People are going to have to look at it. People are going to have to use it. People are going to have to walk past it. You know, all that kind of stuff is really important and we knew the weight of that responsibility at Chelsea Barracks, but what I'm so proud of is that it is something that you can walk around.

I mean, if people listening to this live in London, I'd absolutely encourage them to go down there, walk into the site, walk around the buildings, look at the buildings, experience it. And remember that before I [00:41:00] started working on that, that was a military installation. That was a barracks. You weren't allowed in it.

You couldn't walk across it. There was a great big fence around it. There were no streets in there, there were no buildings, no one lived there. It was just basically a sort of barracks. What we've made is a piece of London. That is an absolute full environment. That's not just a building. That's not the couple of door handles that is a full environment of landscaping, public realm and buildings.

It's, it's an incredible thing. So that's the thing I'm absolutely most proud of.

Stephen Drew: That's amazing. I think, I think it's a fantastic project and of course I love it. As you say, the point is it was closed off before and you've sort of, you've opened it up to all the people of London. So for anyone listening to this as kind of in a bit, maybe they're in a bit of a Debbie downer right now because we've got, we're in a bit of a strange time.

It's not the ideal time at all right now for anyone that's kind of, you know, feeling a bit down on their luck or needs a bit of motivation. What would you say, Chris, in terms of someone struggling in the [00:42:00] job search right now, or kind of feeling a little bit fatigued with everything going on?

Chris Hartiss: I think that, I think a key thing to try and remember is that we're just architects.

I mean, obviously we're architects, that's kind of important, but you know, there are lots of other people around as well. And I think it's, at a time like this, it's really important to sort of reintegrate back into the rest of the world. A piece of advice I used to give to kind of part ones and part twos, but part ones especially was to when they were getting together their portfolios for interview and things, I'd say to them.

Get together your stuff and sit down with your mum at the kitchen table and tell her what it is you've done for the last three years. Explain to somebody who is not an architect what it is that you do. Because, believe me, when you've been around the block as many times as I have, nine times out of ten you are presenting architectural ideas and architectural work to people who are not architects.

That's right. That's who we're in service to as architects. We're in service to people who are not architects. And lots of part ones, probably the only people that have ever talked to about architecture will be other architects. And to be fair, [00:43:00] lots of us as professionals only talk to other architects, but I think it's a really important thing to do to, to talk about what you do to non architects and to practice that kind of conversing.

about your professional life with people who are not, who won't understand necessarily even what the elevation is or what plan is, you know, in trying to explain your portfolio to someone who hasn't got the slightest bit of interest in architecture or has no idea at all what they've been paying for you to do at college for the last three years.

I think that's an incredible opportunity for learning how people react to your work and to what you've done. And it just enables you to reconnect to the world, to, to get back out there with people who. I'm not our people. They're not us, but they are the people in the rest of the world. And they're absolutely the people who are going to be your clients tomorrow.

And they're, they're really important. So I think absolutely remember that you've got a life outside architecture. Remember that everything that you do is about you. So any experience you have is going to be important. It's going to be relevant. It's going to be. There'll be [00:44:00] things in any job that are relevant to your professional life, whether it's dealing with public, whether it's having responsibility because you're dealing with cash or something.

I don't know. Every job will point you towards where you're ultimately going. If you can try and see it in those terms and every opportunity is worth taking. So sure,

Stephen Drew: it's definitely wise words. I think it's important to mention here as well, that you've seen things. You mentioned humbly talking about going to interviews when, for instance, you felt you know, unglamorous jobs at the start and, you know, talking about going to South bank, talking about going squires and, and actually it's those human interactions and you, by you being yourself, I think that I would imagine that's where the employers hired you or that on this conversation about.

Your ambition or where you want to go. Now, you've also interviewed a lot of people as a hiring manager, and we've talked at length about with interviewing, it can be the intricacies of the person, the CV, the [00:45:00] portfolio, there's a lot of general tips, which. which help. And, and I've done a few examples of that and that you've contributed very generously a lot of information on the architecture social about how to go about it.

What would you say as a general vibe? You talk about life outside of architecture is important and I agree. What do you think always catches your attention in the interview as what does, what makes people stand out sometimes, Chris? You

Chris Hartiss: know, I'm sure lots of people listening to this all just think, Oh my God, this guy spent all this.

All this education in nightclubs, what does he know about this? No, no, I don't. The fact is that I, you know, I do believe in professionalism. You know, what we're doing as architects is, is selling a professional service to people. And we have to remember to be professional. And that means to carry yourself with integrity and to understand what someone's asked you to do and to deliver that as best you can.

Now, absolutely, you can look at a CV from a part one, part two anybody and see. within it, someone taking themselves [00:46:00] professionally, seriously, pretty, pretty quickly, to be absolutely honest, that's one of my first impressions is always, you know, does this person think of themselves seriously? Now, I don't mean do they think of themselves so kind of in an overblown way, that means they're too self important.

I just mean, does someone understand their position in the world, their professional standing? I used to ask interviewees I used to always ask interviewees what kind of salary they're expecting. And it used to stun me that people would say, well, I've got no idea at all. And I say to them, okay, look, you need to know what you're worth.

You know, you are a commodity. You are somebody who'd go out, goes out into the world and can get jobs and can earn money. You know, you need to know what you're worth. That is part of being a professional. So, you know. That the, the heart of it is going to be a sense of professionalism for sure. But I do want to know that somebody is going to fit within the team that I, that I manage.

And I don't mean that that means they've got to be in the pub every night. That doesn't mean that I want everybody to change their desks all night either. Personality is important. And I think, you know, I think again, you'd be a [00:47:00] fool if you thought that you could put a CV together without displaying anything of your personality, because there are clues.

All over. So, you know, every line we make on a piece of paper exhibits something of our personality so you can glean some personality from those things. And that's, I think that is important. So what I would say about that is to make sure that that you're honest about that as well. You know, if you're going to portray an image of who you are through your CV or your portfolio, then that's got to Be genuine, you know, because that will get seen through if it's not but for me, it's important to have a proper blend of professionalism and personality and, and talent and, and someone looking forward to the future, especially part ones, part twos.

I've encouraged some part ones and part twos to put in the back of their portfolio, a single sheet of paper, which says. This is what I'm aiming to do in the next phase of my professional life. This is kind of what my plan is for the next period. So if you're a part one, put in a page at the back of your portfolio, which says, these are the, some of the kinds of things I'd like to do in my year out.

Now those can be things from, I'd like to know about hospital design, or it could be [00:48:00] learn a new software, or it could be work within a team. It could be all sorts of things, soft and hard skills. But I think if you set that out, if you say to people, this is who I am, this is where I've come from, and this is where I want to go.

That's a really good starting point. You know, I think that's a really interesting thing to be, to be talking about in an interview setting is, you know, okay, you've said that you want to do X, Y, and Z, let's explore that. Could you do those things? Can we offer you those opportunities? We are, why do you want to do those things?

I think that's a really interesting thing to try and do is to be thinking about your future. I'd also say, and I did say this to someone this week, that if you've got material in your CV that sorry, in your portfolio that originates from your college project or is your Part 1 work or whatever remember that it did that job at those times.

It's now in your portfolio to get you a job. So if you can take an image that you made for your Part 1 or your year out and you can make it look great. Better than it did back then your tutors aren't going to know. I'm not going to know that that isn't what you put in for your exam. It's [00:49:00] remember it's for the portfolio.

It is for the purposes of getting a job. And if you can make the most of it again, don't lie, don't change it. Don't, you know, don't change it fundamentally, but you know, if you can enhance and improve it, go for it, you know, because why not, you know, make that a product that will get you a job, not just the product that three years ago, got you your part one.

Stephen Drew: I think that's really wise words and I was the one thing I always say in terms of an interview is very much a conversation. It's good to prepare. I think just being open, honest as well, and having that conversation and is provided if you, if you thought about your CV and portfolio and it's he spent a lot of care and attention and love on it.

That's going to, that's going to come across. And then the good thing is what you're talking about being a professional in that conversation, then you can, you can touch upon really important stuff. And I agree with you actually, people I'm, I think it's, I always joke, it's the British thing of, of the salaries.

People get really worried and find it awkward when actually [00:50:00] talking about a salary. There's no problem with that because if you say, look, I'm looking for 50,000, I was on 45, I've got more responsibility now. I wanna be engaged with my job. If you pay me 50,000, that's what I feel is fair. I'm gonna push it.

I'm gonna take upon more responsibilities. I'm gonna build the project you want. Well, that's kind of the attitude. Yeah. I would be looking for. I was hiring someone, so really, really, really wise words there. I say, I think since I tried to pull that question on you on that surprise project, Chris, have you got any questions that you want to ask me as well?

Kind of a bit of fun and flip around the interview, the interview. The interviewee becomes the interviewer,

Chris Hartiss: right? In that case, I've got to ask you what building that you've been involved with, you're most proud of, and you're going to say, I've never been involved with any buildings, but there must be something you've been involved with.

Stephen Drew: No, I have. I worked in the industry for three years, so I have done. I've never seen one that I start, Oh, I tell you a few, you're going to giggle with me because I used to be the cheeky part one that used to, There used to be three kitchens in EPR's office. And I used to hide in between all the offices. [00:51:00] I used to love front end design, Chris, right?

I used to love all the modeling. And I remember at the time I had a director and he was working really hard. Very, very, very hard. And I remember once or twice I was like, look, you know, I had plans. I couldn't do the extra hour or two. And I look back now and at the time I was just like, Oh, do you know what?

I think, I think, I think I'm not going to be staying late tonight. I'm going to go out and I actually understand at the time he was just under a lot of pressure. And so, but when, when, when I was 18, yeah, I was more interested, like you said, in the Friday drinks down the pub after Xero part one. So what, which ones projects was I proud of?

I worked on the Ram Brewery. Which is in Wandsworth, which is a big scheme. I kind of went in a bit, D is in the headlight with all the GAs and dealing with Patel Taylor on landscaping and ringing up and being like, hello can we need to change the plans, please? I don't know what I'm saying. So I did that.

That's one I'm proud of. I did a little scheme and Tufton street where, where double men [00:52:00] double mezzanine or mansard roof. Oh gosh, I forget the term. It was really beautiful project. And. I really enjoyed High End Residential. So EPR architects, I had really good experience. Chelsea Bags or Ram Brewery.

Okay. I didn't bumper this with Prince Charles. And, yeah,

Chris Hartiss: I'm proud of them. That's the point, Chris. You just touched on something that's That is quite interesting, which I think is really important to say. And I say this again to, to other part ones and part twos that I've mentored over the years, when you're in those situations, sometimes for the first few times you go to your first meeting and there's a load of other people there.

And it's pretty easy to feel intimidated. There'll be loads of. Grizzly old man, because they're always men sitting around in really nasty office in clothes talking about stuff in acronyms and talking about stuff in code so that you can't understand it. And it's very easy to feel a that you're the architect and they're all these kind of techie guys or whether that's about money or whether they're talking about.

I don't know, M& E or whatever they're talking about, [00:53:00] A, you can feel alienated because you're the architect, but B, you can feel alienated because you feel kind of young and you feel inexperienced and you just feel like a fish out of water. Someone told me many years ago, which absolutely resonated with me completely, that when you're in the room representing the architects, they've got no idea, those other people in the room, whether you're a part one, a part two, a part three, whatever you are, you know, they don't know what those things mean a lot of the time, and they don't know that you're The part one, they don't know that you may have only joined the office two weeks ago.

And that enables you, when you realize that those people don't know that necessarily, you are just representing the architect. You know, if you've got something to say, say it. You know, people say stupid things at meetings all the time, so don't worry about, you know, whether you are taking a risk on saying it.

But people, people won't know necessarily that you are the graduate. That you are the student and you know, make that you're representing the architect. You work for the architect.

stand by you, whatever you do, but try and have that piece of confidence, you know, try and kind [00:54:00] of remember that you're important. You're an important member of the team. Just like all those guys, you're not more important. You're not less important, but you're all members of the team together.

Stephen Drew: A sound advice.

I wish I heard that before. Cause one day I had that scenario where my boss was like, Steve, I'm proud of you. You're going to go out there and you're going to represent us on the little marketing suite that we have on site. And Chris, this thing was tiny, right? But I went on my own. No, I don't know what I'm doing.

And I went back and it was exactly, that's why I was laughing when you were talking here. It was exactly how you said it. It was a bunch of guys with acronyms and then they were pointing on the map. And they'd be like. Is that okay? Looking at me and I'd be like, you know, just nervously, like, because I was like, they're going to rumble me.

But you're right. And I

Chris Hartiss: think you don't know sometimes as well. I think, you know, if somebody is just asking you for a decision and, you know, you kind of know that you shouldn't be making that decision, it's totally for you to say. Actually, I need to take that back to the office. I need to check that or I don't know the answer.

I mean, you will be much more respective saying you [00:55:00] don't know the answer to something than you will be if you just kind of make something up because you don't know. And you know, I'd say that in interviews, I'd say that in the work environment, you know, you've got to be honest about these things. You'll get much more respect from being honest and you'll get much more respect from, from being honest to yourself and speaking the truth rather than saying what other people think you're thinking, what other people want you to say.

Definitely.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I've had a few of them lessons where I think I would, like you said, at first you saying yes, yeses, because you think you'll feel almost obligated to do so. And it was a bit like when I moved into recruitment at first, for instance, when my, when I just joined recruitment, imagine if I got a role from you, Chris, I would be so enamored by it.

I'd be like, yes, do whatever you want. And what I've learned over the time is that sometimes that the best thing I can do in business sometimes I've got to bring stuff that. Maybe you in that, in that role as my client, you might not be happy with it, but by bringing it to your attention, I saved the project.

So there's been a few times when for instance, someone's [00:56:00] looking at a few options and one of the options can be mine in terms of a job that they're going to. And in my guts, if I know it's not the right thing, I'll actually say that because where I'm conscious of is that what I've learned is that if you, if in my gut instinct, if I didn't say anything, what happens is People go to jobs that they're not comfortable with, and that might fall apart, or in an architectural sense, if you don't bring something up on the project, that these problems come, come, they, they, they appear down the line, and actually, sometimes it's the power of saying no, yeah.

Yeah. And, and I think that's as it goes back to that British thing of salary, I think sometimes we're worried about saying no, but actually if you have a reason or like you say, if you ask the reason, I would say, I don't understand people respect you for it. Absolutely. So

Chris Hartiss: I think it's really important to remember that what the, the, the world of work is at times is going to be difficult and there are going to be challenges and the further up the tree you get, believe me, the challenges and the [00:57:00] difficulty get much more worse.

But, you know, that's what those challenges, those constraints are. What makes us do our jobs better, actually. And there are going to be things that are difficult along the way. Absolutely. There are going to be things which are real challenges. Talking about your salary, talking about the fees for the client, having to read the client up and say, why haven't you paid my bill?

That's a really difficult, I've been doing it for over 20 years. It's still difficult because asking people for money is difficult, but I have to do it. You know, you have to find ways of doing those things. It's a challenge, but it's a really important part of the job. And it's what I mean by being a professional.

All of these things are about being a professional and they're all important. You've got to be able to do all of those things.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think making mistakes, I'm going to horrify you because I remember once, Chris, I did an all nighter in my actual career and I managed to lose something like a million pounds worth of square footage on a project and it's because I was tired, but it was a big mistake, but I remember just being like, I'm so sorry, I'm tired and everyone was like, okay, no problem.

[00:58:00] Yeah. You know, because it was a genuine mistake and we fixed it and I rang up and sorted it all out. But I remember at the time feeling like the world ended. Absolutely. And

Chris Hartiss: making mistakes is absolutely part of life. You know, I used to also say to people, look, if you're a part one, I don't expect you to be a hundred percent perfect.

I might expect you to be 60 percent perfect. By the time you're a part two, I might expect you to be 70 percent perfect. By the time you're part three, you might be 80 percent and blah, blah, blah. So that by the time you get to the top of the tree, you're still not perfect. But you need to be closer to perfect and no one is ever perfect.

I make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. And I think, A, you've got to be honest, as you say, about making them. B, you've got to understand that there will be sometimes a repercussion. You know, maybe people have got to stay in the office longer to fix the mistake. Maybe it will affect other people if you've made a mistake, but.

You've just got to be grown up. You've just got to face that front on. You've got to say, look, I understand there's an implication of the mistake. I'm sorry about my mistake. This is why it's happened. I understand that there'll be some implications, but we need to fix it. This is what we need to do. And sometimes other people are going to say that to you because you [00:59:00] won't have noticed your mistakes.

And you've got to hear that sometimes you've got to be able to just take that on the chin.

Stephen Drew: I love it. I think that's really, that's really good advice. So, a little roundup. So we've gone the whole journey. I've learned that you can hold a measuring tape from zero. That you, you've lost a small fortune because you told Tracy, I don't want your, your tosh.

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, you could have been rich there. And I think we cut a lot of ground in terms of Different options, different avenues, how to get into architecture how to fall in love with it, how to go in different approaches and make it your own. So I think that for anyone listening, super sound advice, and it's been fun little insight into your career.

So I think as it's been an hour, I want to give you a break to go back to your real life. And I've really valued time. I'm sure a lot of people will value it as well. If they want to reach out to you, Chris, you're on the architecture social, which is amazing. You're also on Instagram. on LinkedIn as well.

LinkedIn and R2D2. That's the best place to get hold of me, if not through architectures, I'm sure, yeah. [01:00:00] Amazing. Oh, I can hear your dog in the background.

Chris Hartiss: Definitely

Stephen Drew: timed.

Chris Hartiss: The dogs are restless because I've been talking for an hour and they want to get played with.

Stephen Drew: So I've got to go and do that. I'm sorry.

Perfect timing. Thank you so much, Chris. I've really enjoyed this time. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Stephen. Thank you.