Data + Creativity: How will AI disrupt Architecture and Design? Ft. Steven Charlton at I/O Atelier
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Data + Creativity: How will AI disrupt Architecture and Design? Ft. Steven Charlton at I/O Atelier

Summary

Today we sit down with Steven Charlton, the director of the innovative I/O Atelier, to dig into the disruptive power of Artificial Intelligence in the A&D industry.

Data + Creativity: How will AI disrupt Architecture and Design? Ft. Steven Charlton at I/O Atelier

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[00:00:00]

Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. Another lunchtime special Buckle up. I know it's sunny out there, but hide in the dark. Get on that phone. We don't want you enjoying the sun because we're gonna learn about all those robots. Maybe the things that will take over your job. Not really. I think it'll enable you. Anyways, I'll save all that for 20 seconds.

Wow, it is hot here today. Woo. I hope everyone's enjoying the sun. Okay, 15 seconds.

Hello everyone and welcome to this livestream special. I really appreciate you being here 'cause this is gonna be an interesting one. I'm gonna learn a lot [00:01:00] as well because this is, again, building on the topic. Everyone included, my mother's heard about chat, G P T and ai, but bringing it in from the mainstream.

I'd love to know a little bit more about Architectural professionals. Company owners or architects who are actually using this stuff and are looking at a data-driven approach to doing creative design. And on that basis, I have an awesome guest here who's practicing what he's preaching. There's no preaching, we're all chilled out, but someone that's actually doing it from the front line.

And on that note, thank you so much here to Steve Charlton from IO Atia. How are you sir? Are you okay?

Steven Charlton: Really good. Thank you.

Stephen Drew: Me too. Me too. And I'll be upfront, Steven. It's been a few, many years since I've used Revit and I was into computational design 10 years ago, but I'm a bit out date, so hopefully you can educate me a little bit. But before that, Steven, if anyone hasn't met you yet or huge of you in the industry, can you just tell us a [00:02:00] little bit about yourself?

Steven Charlton: Yeah, sure. So I've been, in the industry almost 20 years now. A big chunk of that was actually in the Middle East, in Dubai, where. I'd set up Pringle Brandon.

Stephen Drew: Oh wow.

Steven Charlton: And the past RIBA presidents practice over there. So I spent a good five years building that up from, myself and one of my business partners to about a hundred people.

And then I. Time was, Jack was essentially looking to do something different at some point and wanted me to come back to London. So we became Perkins and Will obviously a big American Architectural firm offices everywhere, multiple projects and typologies everywhere. But yeah, it was time to come back to London.

So that was about five years ago now. And really that's probably where I So the sort of the early stages of interest in PropTech, how technology is gonna disrupt the property industry. And there seems to be a bit of a hotbed for that actually, in in London.

And I think it's because that, there's so many, the tech companies are here anyway. Googles and the [00:03:00] Facebooks and all the names that you know about. So it's quite talent pool looking at that. So yeah my background's actually interiors, I never really stuck to one typology or one sector.

So I've done everything from aviation to healthcare, to hospitality, to residential to commercial and brought the right team with me,

Stephen Drew: wow. I'm impressed. I am impressed. So that's a lot. And it is a small world, isn't it? And I'm amazed at the amount of different sectors that you've covered that. Now I really wanna learn more about your studio. Just one thing before we do that, you mentioned the term. Prop tech, which gets banded around.

And I think that prop tech, I'm not too sure sometimes what it means. Everyone has different definitions and I know that you lean into that, especially with your new studio, which is doing emergent tech and design. So what is Prop Tech, first of all?

Steven Charlton: In reality, it's just how technology is gonna disrupt the sector. We've already had this sort of FinTech, looking how finance has being disrupted [00:04:00] and all the online banks and everything else that goes with that. But, the property industry, so Architecture, design, construction, it's actually quite conservative.

There hasn't been, Change. I think in reality it's been quite slow and it hasn't really been disrupted, so I think that's why there's a real interest in this huge sector now, it's a huge chunk of G D P for every country, and it hasn't been disrupted. So really there's a huge opportunity to do something different there.

And really that's why you've seen quite a bit of investments coming in from some institutional investments coming into PropTech funds and looking for the next big thing. So it's really exciting, but it's still quite a small sort of bleeding edge of the industry that are looking at this.

With things like chat, g p t and Bard, which has come out in reality it's come the public attention I guess in the last year. And I think there's an awakening happening and I think people are starting to freak out a bit about it, what it really means.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, said. You're right. I think in November when people grasp the [00:05:00] word chat, g p t, suddenly everyone gets scared about ai. However, I've been using similar versions, G P T 2.0, which was Jasper AI of a year or two before and now you've you said as well. So you've seen a lot of Perkins and and great company.

One quick note, at one point it was named Pringle, Brandon Perkins and Drew or something, and I.

Steven Charlton: yeah. Pringle Perkins, I think at one Then. It was perfect and well, but yeah, they're a fantastic company. They're a really great company and learn so much from working with them and the scale and, the types of projects they're looking at and just the resources that you have.

You can do really cool stuff.

Stephen Drew: I used to get asked if John Drew was my father or uncle all the time for Stephen doing the name, and now it's changed again. I get asked that less, but I know John Drew's a fantastic designer and so are you. I. How now let's talk about then what you're doing, because while Perkins and Will is awesome, [00:06:00] equally, it's quite exciting what you're doing now and you've

set up this new company and I'd love to know more about it.

So I'll bring up the website, which could be one of the coolest websites. So seen in the world. It's not there. I'm not allowed to pick favorites, but it's definitely a good one. Can you tell us all about IO then?

Steven Charlton: It's interesting that design and data. I think really what I believe is the future is a. And data and that's really what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to create this business where data and design works hand in glove. And by doing that, we learn what is achievable, what's possible and vice versa from the other side.

Design teams and architects and designs don't really know what's possible with machine learning. In reality, why would they? And then the sort of the data scientists and, the scripters, the pro, all that sort of stuff. They don't know what the creatives can do 'cause it's just two different worlds.

So by bringing them together, if anything, I'm hoping to get some sort of get some sparks of innovation that we just didn't [00:07:00] think about before. And it's interesting, it was when I came back to London I was starting to have conversations with clients and that the conversations really resonated with me because there were.

Some of the sophisticated clients were asking myself and asking the teams why, why are you presenting this design to us? Why are you presenting this massing, the adjacencies? Why is the design the way the design is? And the reality was the answer. And the answer actually from within the industry is trust us.

We've been doing this a long time. We've been practicing Architecture design for 10, 15, 20 years. Our firm's been doing it for 50 years, a hundred years, whatever it is. It's basically just saying you have to trust that we know what we're doing. And clients, in reality, they go to the best reputational firms to de-risk their projects because, they've probably got the best architects and designers and they've got strong teams and strong pedigree.

But I think what they were [00:08:00] really asking for was evidence. They were asking for data. They wanted data to show why you got to where you got to. So they wanted to know evidence-based design, data-driven design. And the reason they're asking for that is because they're seeing that in other parts of their lives.

In every other sector, it's it's acceptable. You get data and it informs your decision making process. So that was really, it was something that really stuck with me, and I think it was because the people who are now becoming the leaders of these businesses, Are of an age where they were brought up on computers.

Now they were brought up on Ataris and the Omegas and all the stuff that you probably remember. And I remember they get into a place where they are the decision maker and they feel comfortable and they want to be using data, right? Because that's just the way they've been brought up, essentially.

Stephen Drew: Yeah makes complete sense. And what I've always found that as well that, computational design can also be seen as a specialist. But it's interesting what you say that [00:09:00] actually looking at how you deal with this data should be, the actual approach of the practice.

Have you found, then you talk here, I'm looking at the website, which really explains it really well. I'll bring the link up again, but we talk about using. Big data, and I found it really interesting. When you're talking about the human truth, the place truth, and looking at that data, how do you even begin, Steve, tackling this approach with all these data sources?

What do you do with 'em? I'd love to hear your thoughts on how as a studio IO begins and packing this and decrypting

Steven Charlton: Yeah, there was a lot of hard thinking and there was a lot of mess to start with because you've got all. And I think I, whenever I try and think about a project or a strategy, simplification is the most important thing to do. It's, if you strip it right back and you go what are we really trying to achieve?

What's really important? And how do we make it as simple as possible to communicate to ourselves and to [00:10:00] our clients and anybody from the outside? So that's what we really try to do, is just really simplify. The concept of what we're doing. 'cause if people get it, if they get the concept, it's so much easier to comprehend and it's so much easier to deliver and it's so much easier to believe in.

'cause you just, you get it. If you overcomplicate stuff, it's it's just, it's too much and you lose interest and it's really difficult to steer a path if you do that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, makes complete sense. And I agree with you. I think it's interesting 'cause you are embracing these technologies now, some people, I've had some conversations where, the AI's coming, people don't want to deal with it. It reminds me a little bit about people talking about Revit 10 years ago.

I don't wanna deal with BIM. Let's leave it be.

Steven Charlton: Do it and they don't wanna do it. Even, or even I think as an industry, we still haven't embraced Revit really. It's like almost people are doing it because they have to do it. It's not, they don't want to do it. They don't wanna fully, deep dive into it and use it in the way that's, it's meant to be used.

And I think that's indicative actually of the industry. It's not criticism, it's just [00:11:00] we, I think there's a romanticism about design that we like to think that it's, it's about sort of the minds to the hands, to the pen, to the paper, and it is a hundred percent. My belief is that we can augment the process.

With technology we can be better. Yeah, we can be faster, we can more accurate, we can deliver better solutions. By augmenting not taking over, we're not, I'm not saying we should let AI do everything. That's, it makes no sense to do that, but we should embrace it because that's the way forward.

Stephen Drew: I agree. As I run a business myself and my view on AI is that if I can give the most mundane or arduous tasks to, to that, to enable me to do other stuff, I think actually in a one way it's a liberator. Now, when you were talking about all this stuff, I think before when it came to Rev, it was actually.

Winning people over by giving them real case studies or examples of how it can be used to save them time, efficiency, or money. Because it's gonna be a [00:12:00] pain in the house at the start, but once you get to grips of it, it gets better. Now, in terms of you and your business so far, have you got like a real life case study or point of view that you can illustrate?

So on your current projects then, Steve, do you use this technology all the time to optimize things for the clients then?

Steven Charlton: Yeah, it's an interesting one. So we, it's probably best I explain the two, there's almost two key things that we're doing at the moment. There's lots of other small like this, like how do we use mid journey in the design process? There's always stuff like that going on. But the two lenses as we're call em's, that's that sort of place truth and in human truth.

So place truth is really just saying it. What, if we know everything that's happening within the location that you are currently in or thinking about moving to or thinking about purchasing. So within walking distance of a location, if you can know everything about the sustainability of the area, the sort of the mobility data sets, the crime data sets, the the social demographic data sets, the [00:13:00] economic data.

There, there's a lot of information. There's thousands of data sets, but in an instant you could know it. And what we're trying to do is, and what we've started to do, proof of concept on, is basically you have to weigh the data, give it relevance, but to give it relevance, you need to know how to give it relevance.

You need to know what's important to that client or to that sector. And that's why these two things need to come together. It's pointless just having, a tech team delivering a product when they don't really know. The people who are gonna use it, what they need, and they don't.

Their aspirations are and how they're thinking. And the people that really know that is us, we've been doing it for a long time. We have this knowledge in our head. And that was the sort of the issue that we all have it in our heads, but it's not structured. It's not documented, it's not stored in a way that can be reused.

When that individual leaves a company and moves to the next company, they take that knowledge with them. Which, it is what it is, but there's a better way of doing that. There's [00:14:00] a way of doing it where we learn from it and we create a sort of a circularity in information. So we're constantly learning and improving and getting better and really understanding what works and what doesn't work.

So that's a, it's a really big shift. So it's almost saying, the truth is basically what's already there. It's the history, everything that's happened and everything that's happening as of today and yesterday and months gone by. We're capturing that, which is a big task in reality. It's a two year task to do that minimum.

And that

Stephen Drew: a lot of work.

Steven Charlton: it's a lot of work and it's restricted to London and the outer areas because it's, there's a cost of purchasing data and it's, there's time and resource needed to analyze it and scrub it and clean it and structure it. But you need that data. To be done and to be used.

'cause that's the learning model. You need that for machine learning to learn from, so you can't skip that. That's step. So that's basically the big focus at the moment on what we're doing. And then you your your AI and machine learning [00:15:00] has something to learn from. So that's the, the end of 20 end of next year, we're moving into that next phase.

And similarly, On the human truth. I'm not gonna go into the detail because you can sound quite dystopian. But using data that is in the public domain to understand the people, the types of people and the sectors of society or the levels of seniority that live or work or go to these venues for entertainment.

If we can understand. Who they really are, what they like, what they don't like, what their dreams, their aspirations are, what they believe, things that they're interested in without having to ask 'em. That's an amazing starting point. If we know the truth about the place and the truth about the people, then we start the brief, then we start design.

We've almost de-risked the project if we've done that and we know who we're designing for. 'cause at the moment we just, we've got opinions and. Clients go to the best firms for the best [00:16:00] opinions, but why not have the real data? It's there. It's just a case of getting it and capturing it and understand how to use it.

Stephen Drew: Well said. It's it's very interesting and it seems that we, one or two people in the audience will agree and one one, Mr. Anonymous, I think they just gotta click a button, but we'll call 'em Mr. Anonymous. As I agree, AI will open so many opportunities for us to focus on the big picture and strategic.

Sides and this is sounds like what you're touching upon now with Mid Journey, which even in the you mentioned that before. I think that there's been, like a lot of people have tried it out, can use it for a bit more of a mood board or atmospheric, yet it's more about giving a feeling.

It's less about what you've talked about Steven, in terms of actual raw information, but maybe that's an assumption that I've got right or wrong. What's your thoughts on tools like Mid Journey in, in the design process then?

Steven Charlton: I think there's value a hundred percent. There's value to it, and I think the reality is [00:17:00] where it is right now versus where it'll be in a year's time, will completely change how we think about the design process. The technology, the speed in which this stuff's going to change and it's gonna learn and it's gonna get better and better.

And it's gonna get feedback from the industry. I know different sectors, different industries who are using this right now. So all that feedback's gonna go into the development and it's gonna adapt and it's gonna get better and smarter. And I think that really is why, that's what freaks a lot of people out.

And do we need to employ designers? Do we need to employ Architect? This could probably my job. And honestly there'll be some clients who will start using this stuff and they will cut out the design process. Not to pick on people like, but a volume house builder who's gonna do repetition of, of volume houses over a massive lands, they're gonna definitely try and use this stuff.

Because it's bottom line for them. It's about money. Some of the d b companies. A hundred percent they're gonna start using this and they're gonna reduce their overhead for designers is what it is. But I think there'll always be, in my mind, [00:18:00] there'll always be a place for the most talented, the most creative people.

There'll always be a place, 'cause actually you'll want to know that it's done by somebody who has feelings and, has experience and has, can innovate in a way that this can't, this stuff can only really do what it's seen before. Whereas as humans, we can create new things. We can do things that have never been seen before.

Like Quentin Tarantino from movies, an AI is not gonna write that script because it just hasn't been done before. When it starts coming out like that, it's completely new. So there'll always be, there's always space for talents. But it will change the industry. There'll be people, roles will disappear but new roles will appear as well because they have to look at ethics, to look at the quality of the data, the diversity of the data, and everything else.

Stephen Drew: Yeah I agree. I think that when I was a part one, I've got, there was a lot of good tasks. I've done a lot of things I was learning, there was like one or two of those weeks Stephen where I was doing the collage in Photoshop. And [00:19:00] I always think now with the AI in Photoshop, basically the stuff I was spending ages doing, You could just knock out in 10 seconds.

So that task what I've would've done before yes, would be completed by computers, but I still had to run around and do all the binding and all that stuff in the room. So I never think it's gonna replace everything. But like you said, again, it gives the opportunity for the company owner. A team leader or anything to put resources on other stuff.

And what I was gonna ask you on that note, do you see, do you think the industry's already changing or with this stuff? Or is it more a few companies like yourself where you're saying it's gonna be a core part of our business, we are gonna run with it?

Steven Charlton: I think it's, the industry's not changing yet. I. Feedback where it's and I don't mind this. I can take all feedback that no, that's not gonna happen. This isn't, it's almost bury your head in the sand stuff. It's this belief that it's [00:20:00] not gonna happen and it will. So I think in a way what's gonna happen is the innovative companies will get such a headstart.

That it'll be difficult to catch up. So you'll probably see a bunch of, acquisitions down the line from big companies looking to buy talents and buy the expertise in to, to catch up. But you can't undo it. AI's out there, it's not gonna change. The speed in which the change is coming is gonna be, it's gonna accelerate.

And I think it's gonna surprise a lot of firms as well going forward. You mentioned, there's something like, I think it's a bit like 80 20 if you if we can get AI machine learning to do. 80% get to a place where a lot of the basic stuff, repetitive stuff, take it to 80%.

But then we as humans and the sort of the people who know what we're doing, we can focus a hundred percent of our time on that final 20%. Then the output is gonna be greater than the summer parts. It's really gonna, it's really gonna change how we think about doing these things. And that's what's, I think that's the way we should be thinking about it.

We're gonna be, [00:21:00] we're not gonna do things in the same way. The designs will be different. And they can be different 'cause we've got more time. We've almost killed ourselves as an industry giving away stuff for free. The fees aren't gonna suddenly increase. So what do we do?

We spend less time doing stuff that we really don't need to be doing. And more time on the stuff to be more research on projects, more, think more creative thinking and more innovation. That's what we should be doing. So hopefully we can do that and not, squeeze down our fees to where they are now.

Hopefully there's a, an increase in fees an increase in profitability. So as an industry we can get salaries up and, do what we need to really do to keep people in the industry and make it attractive.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, said. And we could have a whole podcast episode on not giving away stuff for free, because I do think that is a huge problem. Full stop.

Steven Charlton: And I think that's, it's done now. So the question is how do you do something different now moving forward? And I think that's the piece that's interesting. How can we use the technology to drive productivity [00:22:00] and be able to charge more money and be able to charge higher fees? 'cause we're seeing more as, experts, where they're the McKinsey or the Boston consultant of the sort of the construction and design industry.

Stephen Drew: Very insightful and I appreciate you sharing that. We have had one or two comments that have come in while we're talking. Tapio says, great conversation passively, Harvard harvested brackets, non-subjective data on actual human behaviors. I. In a specific space is such an underutilized design tool. Now I'm gonna be very honest.

Tapio, I'm not too sure what half of that means. However, Steven, maybe you can comment on that as well. Is that something that you share a sentiment on, agree or disagree?

Steven Charlton: I, yeah, I massively agree with that. It's I, so I'm not the best designer in the world and I knew that I think I'm more interested in the business of design. And so strategically thinking how we can make things better, how we can be [00:23:00] smarter, how we can do things differently. And I used to get very frustrated with a lot of Of design briefs that I got where it's almost like the client just wants this silhouette in the skyline.

They want this sort of beautiful, Architecture, beautiful design, and they don't really care about the people who are gonna occupy the space. So in my mind, what we should be doing is thinking about how humans use space, and then they should be the center of attention, whether it's a hospital, a school, an office, a home.

How are the people who are gonna occupy that space? How are they going to use it? How are they going to enjoy it? What is right for them. And then the Architecture should come off from that. The design should be secondary to the human experience. So for me the concept of understanding truly the who are the people who are actually gonna be in this space and really understanding them.

If we know that and then build out from that, the end product is gonna be so much better. And that actually ties into [00:24:00] things like diversity to. Who are we designing for? That's really understands who they are. And we can give such a more sort of bespoke solution. So yeah. Yeah yeah, definitely.

Stephen Drew: ma I'm learning and thank you Steven and Tapio. Maybe you need to be the host next time because I'm more than me. But really good question. Rohan actually has a question for you, Steve, and he says, as an individual from the ARC Architecture, or construction industry, How can one start to learn about AI and data the state ahead of the game, if it's ever gonna be used in the construction industry?

Any tips, Steven? Where to begin with all this stuff?

Steven Charlton: my tip would to be, think about it as learning another language. Go and learn how to use Python. A hundred percent. So if if you're gonna learn to speak another language, think it as another language, go and learn how to think it and use it. Do that. If you do that, I think. That will keep you ahead of the game.

And I think to think of Architecture and design as just something that's a creative [00:25:00] piece, you need to add the other parts. You can still be creative in coding instead of language. It's just adding that other thing to what you're doing. It's like the fundamentals that you need to understand. So I would definitely encourage that.

I know a lot of the, the universities and colleges are starting to add that into the curricular as well. So yeah, that would be the key thing.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and I'm building upon that 'cause I have a friend who was an Architectural Assistant, now he's a front end coding designer. And we had done the pub and I said about, chat G b T, he starts doing encode. And he made a very good point because it's not about generating the code, it's about the command of the language.

Exactly. Like we, we are speaking now and understanding it to wield it to do what you won. And and I thought he made a pretty good point. So you are right. It's it's quite important. I also, Steve, start seeing people now doing maybe guides on how to utilize mid journey, and people are now building stuff which are, is proprietary on opi, opening eye and stuff.

Would you encourage people to keep experimenting [00:26:00] in this space while it's still in the infancy now?

Steven Charlton: Yeah, obviously, so we're up to, we started in September. Our head counts about six at the moment. I think we'll be maybe 10 by the end of the year, something like that. But I think what I'm saying to, we're bringing in data scientists. Obviously, so we need the data, the people, but with the design team, what I'm saying to 'em is, look, 80% of your job is your day job.

It's the stuff that you know, you're doing. It's the drawing packages, it's the creative piece and the stuff you do. But 20% needs to be about the sort of, the thoughts of you go it's more that now actually. So 20% needs to be about,

Stephen Drew: so fast, you can't. You gotta keep up to date with the website then.

Steven Charlton: there was a photo shoot actually last week, 20% is about innovation, but thinking about how can we use this new technology, whether it's the Adobe piece that you talked about with Photoshop, whether it's mid journey, whether it's chat, PT plugins, I think meta is gonna release. The language model.

In open source. There's a really cool [00:27:00] software called Hiker which is again, it's open source cloud. Almost an alternative way of thinking about Revit Just look at ways of doing things differently and integrating them into the process and experiment. I think a lot of this stuff might fall by the waysides in terms of individual software components, and some of it won't.

But the concept of doing things differently, trying new ways of using things, looking at what other sectors are doing, other industries, and how we can integrate their way of doing things into our sector. It's more about that, it's experimentation. And the reality is it's easier in a startup. The smaller you are, the more agile you can be and the less risk there is in terms of making mistakes, you can undo it quite quickly.

The bigger you get, the more you are established, the more difficult it is to change path. And that isn't a criticism. It's just, it just is what it is. It makes sense when you think about it. And I guess that's why it's so much fun doing this. Every day's difference, the conversations we have, it can change your, it can [00:28:00] change your view and direction, which is cool because it's, there's nothing wrong with changing direction.

And actually you should, you should maneuver and quickly pivot when you can and when you need to.

Stephen Drew: Well said. And it's very fascinating as a small company like myself, I agree. I try not to add too many rules and stuff organically. You learn as you go Now what I was gonna ask is because on the Architecture Social, the roots in all this has always been, I'm talking about careers, self-learning, and a lot of what we're talking about is skilling up, which is fantastic Now, You are a key part.

You're a founder of this studio, so I imagine, as you mentioned, you're gonna be growing and stuff, and there might be someone in the audience that's listening that thinks, oh, I'd like to work on Steven's team. Now, in terms of applications, whether they're, from an Architect or a part two, part one, do you have any tips, especially when it comes to this theme of tech or what you'd be looking for?

That would stand out to you Stephen in an application right now or anything you would advise anyone [00:29:00] or maybe you earlier in your career if they were looking to join you. Is this stuff that they should think about when doing a CV N portfolio in 2023?

Steven Charlton: I think, obviously the basics need to be in there, which is a given, but I think I, I'm more interested, for me personally in what I'm doing, I'm more interested in that the concept that there's an interest. And then they're intrigued by future technology. So they're thinking about what's in the future.

And that could be anything from, they've learned Python, or they're using Mid Journey at the moment, or they're working on CHATT plugins, or they're doing a course in machine learning, U C l. It almost, they don't, I don't really care what it is. It's more just that they're open.

And they're trying to embrace these new technologies rather than a lot of people who are trying to push them away and saying, it's, we don't need it. It's gonna take all our jobs. It's more that mindset that, that's, let's think about the future and not be scared of it. So I think if someone can get that [00:30:00] across in their CV and portfolio, then obviously I'm gonna be really interested to chat to them.

Stephen Drew: Go. That that's true. Yeah. And it's the intention. I think half of it's doing it, isn't it? It's very important, like you say, going, being part of a part-time university thing or making something or having it out there as well as the passion. I think trialing and failures and all that good stuff is.

Steven Charlton: Yeah, and even it can be outside of our sort of what you would normally define as our scope. So I'm interested in, profiling. So how do you know targeted marketing, LinkedIn Instagram, targeted marketing? How does it work? Understanding the, the methodology of it. And, everybody knows, everybody thinks that, computers are listening to us and they target us with the latest marketing about, the holiday destination you've been thinking about.

But it's not really that. It's, it is algorithms, it's linkage of, it's linkage of data and predictive analysis and things like that. So people are interested in that. Again, we design for people. And I think we should always go back to that, that we design for people. So [00:31:00] by understanding people and how people think and how people react and how people go about their lives, the more we understand about that, the better we can do projects, buildings that fit around them.

So yeah, anything like that is gonna be super interesting for me and people who are thinking like me.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. That's really useful and thank you for sharing that. I was gonna ask you one more quick thing because you, so you've got your practice, or your studio. There's proven by the word practice, that's an it's, it is this, it's this emergent studio that you've got, but what are you excited for then at the moment, Stephen, in the next year or two, whether it's your business or where the industry's going, I'd love to know what you're excited about.

Steven Charlton: it was interesting. I was chatting to you a bunch of pure data science people know nothing about what we do and. They're super excited about what I'm trying to achieve, and it's some of the comments where you you're aiming for the stars, which is a good thing. I don't think I'm, but once we [00:32:00] have the learning material and then we move to predictive analysis and machine learning, that really excites me.

That's the sort of, for me, that's the game changer. And weirdly, the sort of the advent of these large language models like chat, G p T and bd, the timing of that's been quite interesting that it's coming at the same time. So by the time I'm ready and I've got this information done and we've tested it and we're using it with clients, the AI piece can start plugging some of the gaps and.

Moving it forward so that it feels really exciting. And it was just really nice to get that reassurance that, I'm heading in the right direction and people don't think I'm crazy. That was quite nice And reassurance. Yeah. That's really interesting. I think in the widest scale of things,

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Steven Charlton: There's definitely this sort of a, I guess there's two views on how this is gonna go with this sort of AI in general.

There's dystopian view, which is, anything from Terminator to, whatever in between. But then there's the other piece, which, we're gonna be healthier, we're gonna be more productive, it's gonna [00:33:00] really support us as humans and make our lives better. So I think I'm the speed in which sort of technology changes like the, i, was it the iPads to the, not the, what was the original one?

The iPod all the way through the iPhones and the technology shift in that is immense. I think the technology shift we're gonna see in the next five years is gonna be even greater. So things like, targeted medicine, looking at all the ability to basically treat exactly the issues that you're gonna have.

It's gonna be, it's gonna be amazing actually, what we're gonna see.

Stephen Drew: I'm with you. I find it exciting. I say I think what a time to be alive. My partner in real life, on the other hand, thinks it's absolutely terrible, so I know, it's all right. It is. We are not running the business together. It's cool. What I was gonna say is before we get your contact details and stuff, I normally like to open it up the other way 'cause it's not fair that I get to ask all the questions and you've eloquently answered them.

And I was wondering if you had one or two questions for me. And it can either be on, Basically the [00:34:00] Architecture. Social is an online community platform. The podcast has got marketing trends, but also you know, where the revenue of the business comes from. As I've publicly said all the time, a lot of it's on recruitment, so I see industry trends and stuff, but Steve, do you wanna pick my brain's lines live, or ask me one or two questions at all?

Steven Charlton: I guess I I'm intrigued if it's it's quite, it feels quite isolating what we're doing. It doesn't feel like there's many companies looking at this sort of stuff. Which in a way I like, because that means either mom's a really good thing or I'm just being stupid. But I think it's a really good thing.

But are you seeing, are you seeing companies really asking for this asking for the, experience in machine learning and programming and python and.

Stephen Drew: Absolutely not. So if I get someone who comes to me, I know where the talent to go to, but it's very rare and I think that it will take time. It's exactly what you said before, Stephen, because and unlike Perkins and Will, it's a great example. It's a good company. It's a large company. It'll take a lot of time for there to be a formal.

Computational design role or something to trickle down. And I'm seeing [00:35:00] one or two larger companies, maybe for example, a large company which is designing stadiums. They will hire a computational

designer. But even then, that's what that term is. And even then, as like more a computational designer, Does, specializes in is incredibly different based upon if they're programming, are they, are they a grasshopper, whizz, and all this stuff.

So I'm, I still see it as a bit of a niche. It's very rare that then those skills become more in, in mainstream Architecture. And so the only examples I've seen it more is, For example, like Knee on the line, right? So all the crazy stuff. And you mentioned this because you set up all these, cool offices in the Middle East and stuff.

I think there's an opportunity there for for design and programming. So I will see roles come through, which looking for someone with Rhino and Grasshopper. So that is in terms of mainstream Architecture, Their version of the bleeding edge. However, what we know is that Rhino [00:36:00] Grasshopper has been around even since I've been doing my part one or part two.

So to answer what you said, no, I think that what you're doing is the bleeding edge, and with that comes all the excitement, but also becomes the challenge that I imagine you as a business owner looking for someone with a particular skill. It's harder to find those people. So maybe is that useful?

I think it's gonna take time.

Steven Charlton: It ist gonna take time. It was weird. It was disheartening that I saw an adver from a developer and the developer was looking for designers with expertise in chat G P T and Mid Journey, and that was quite scary. It's okay, if our clients are asking for it in advance of, our ability to do it, I think that actually, I think that is a problem for the industry if the clients and developers start taking that on board and trying to do that themselves and automating some of that process.

That then does start taking away from our industry 'cause they figure out how to use it before we do. So I think, we need to be conscious of that as well.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, that's a good point. And hopefully then we can [00:37:00] get res on there. I'm hopeful if someone's putting in the job spec must use chat. G p t, they don't fully understand it yet. 'cause I can use chat g p t by in a prompt line doesn't mean that what's gonna come out is gonna be good. You are right. I know what you're saying.

The kin's going that direction, which could be slippery. Modular Architect modular developers have been hiring in-house for a while, and I do think that trend will go, but that's more in a tech line. I don't think that the. The mainstream. We've got to worry just yet.

But I could be really wrong, Steve. I could eat my words and you're right. There could be all these chat, g p t, prompt people in-house and developers putting stuff in. You just don't know

Steven Charlton: we'll find that.

Stephen Drew: We'll find out. But until then, just before we go, because you are actually doing this stuff on the frontline, you're not using prompts in chat G p T, you are.

You're looking at the big data. You're doing all this cool stuff. If people have watched this and they want to learn a little bit [00:38:00] more, whether they're a developer, whether they're an Architect, whatever, how would they get in contact with you, Steve, to say hello and learn more?

Steven Charlton: Yeah, they can just drop me an email. Actually, it's Steven with a ir and that's.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant

Steven Charlton: That's the easiest way to do it. I've got one sort of elevator pitch I'm probably gonna put to you, finish off as well. It seems to go down really well and people can comprehend it. So there was a Netflix commissioned a study I'd say seven years ago, six, seven years ago, where they were looking at their data, they were looking at what people were watching, what people were searching for and couldn't find, breaking it down by demographics and, really analyzing their data.

And then they were getting external data on trends. So they pulled this all together. So they aggregated the data and then they gave it relevance and meaning and weights, and they came up with three sort of key concepts, key ideas, and it was slasher movies. People were loving that. Team tv.

That was great. Everybody wants that. And eighties nostalgia. So that was the brief for [00:39:00] Stranger Things. So everybody thinks Stranger Things was this creative genius came up with that. It wasn't, it was everybody's idea. It was just aggregated data. So that sounds cool. It's wow, that's really amazing.

But my point is, right when I see clients it's really cool. But if, unless you have really good directors and actors and actresses and production crews and lighting, you make, you know all the stuff you need, all you've got is a really good idea of bad implementation. What you need is really great data, relevant data, and really great creativity.

You bring those two things together and then you pretty much. Is where we are these days, you're more guaranteeing a success. You're de-risking your project and that's basically what our vision is. What my vision is moving forward.

Stephen Drew: I'm sold. It makes a lot of sense to me and I encourage anyone here if that makes sense to you or food for thought. You think about it. You should check out all the stuff that Steven's got on IO atelier online. And for the audio listeners, if you're [00:40:00] not watching the video, it is www.ioandthenthethe-hyphenthingatelierietelier.com.

My goodness, I nearly butched that, butchered that with my Welsh accent, but I will put it in the description as well. Thank you so much, Stephen, for

Steven Charlton: Thank you.

Stephen Drew: time out your day. I really appreciate it, and for you, the listeners, for asking questions joining in, I really appreciate it as well.

Join me tonight. We'll be doing a special on inclusivity and behavior in Architecture, so we've done the tech driven, and now we will go to US quirky humans tonight. Stephen, you've been an absolute star. Stay on the stage now and for one or two more minutes while I close on the live stream. But thank you everyone, and see you soon.

Take care. Bye-bye now.