Client Side Insights: An Interview with David Drews of Allied London

David Drews, Design Director of Allied London
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Good morning, everyone. I am Stephen Drew from the Architecture Social. And today I am joined by a very special guest David Drews, who I've known for a few years. David Drews, who is design director now at Allied London. David. Hello. How are you? Hi Steven. How you doing? I'm alright. It's a bit of a crazy week, isn't it?

Good thing we're gonna be on audio 'cause I wouldn't want to see the viewers to see my hair right now, . But other than that, I mean it's professional hours. I can see you are in the office right now, is that correct? Yes. Yeah. Fantastic. The show goes on, obviously complying with all safety requirements and everything, but we are, we're in a new world.

We're in a new world. So David, for now, I know you, but for anyone out there. Who has not heard of you at all before. Do you want to give us a little run through of who you are, what you're about and where you're at right now? Okay.

David Drews: First of all, thanks [00:01:00] for inviting me to take part. It's yeah, I was looking forward to it.

So I am design director at Allied London. I've been in this role, I've been with Allied London now for five years, this month, actually. I. Previous to that I was project architect and I worked alongside Grant Jarvie on the pre, the last project before joining Island of London with Grant Jarvie who was the project manager on that project.

And then he subsequently joined Island of London and became managing director. And then I joined him basically because we work well together. And my role now at Allied London is twofold. One part of the role is managing external projects. So all of the large development projects that we have in Manchester, the architectural projects is about.

There's three large active projects at the moment, and there's many more in the pipeline, but there's a sort of separate design team on each of those projects. So that's working with three separate architects. And then the other half of my design sorry, the other half of my role is managing the in house design team at [00:02:00] Adelaide London, which has Right.

we've created since I've been here.

Stephen Drew: Really interesting. And so for anyone, because anyone listening, that's not familiar with Allied London as well. So my understanding is, so Allied London is quite a prominent, successful property developer. In in, and it was done some really great schemes in particular in Manchester.

Now you've got an in house team and you're doing all this amazing stuff. stuff. But perhaps maybe a more official explanation on Allied London. Hopefully I've done it justice, but it would be great to hear your thoughts on maybe you can give us a quick summary on Allied London. Okay.

David Drews: So I guess Allied London's best known project in London.

For those of who are listening who are in London is the herbal house development in Clark and Which was the former print works for the daily mirror. It's built in 1929 it was the first project that I worked on when I joined allied london And yeah for anybody who can is in that area.

It's definitely worth a look. It's you've been fully refurbished. We created. Another two floors on the top [00:03:00] And the reception space in and of itself was the first project that I ever Did here out of London and yeah, particularly proud of that one. Over and above that, although we're called Isle of London, we've got a lot of work that we do in Manchester.

So Spinning Fields is a whole neighborhood in Manchester, which is like the financial district. And you could compare it to Canary Wharf and scale and types of businesses. And it's now complete in terms of architectural developments. And we've been working on for the last at least five years since I've been here, probably well beyond that St.

John's development, which is the kind of adjoining neighborhood, which is going to be much more media tech focused. And

Stephen Drew: it's coming out of the ground right now. Amazing. Wow. So that's where it gets really interesting because, so in terms of what I do, so we've known each other many years before, and currently we work where you're my client.

So please don't find me, but we've known each other from the architecture circle for many years. And not in a [00:04:00] typical recruitment sense, it's probably a shout out to our dear friend Naomi. I'm not even sure if Naomi listens to these, but Naomi, if you're listening, you're the best. Yes, she will.

She will. I'm going to, I'm going to get a year full about this. Hopefully we can do Naomi justice. But Naomi is a friend of mine who I actually met because at the time she was working, she was doing a recruitment for senior roles in terms of architecture because Naomi's done a lot of experience and Naomi.

Right now is in Canada. She's flipping properties. She's an old friend of ours, but basically she worked alongside you in industry, right? Yeah, so I know so it's like he's we're seeing five degrees of Kevin B Can I have you the architecture circle sometimes it never ceases to amaze me But can you perhaps you can give me a flavor of all that time because what's amazing is that now you're a design director of A large successful developer, which a lot of architectural professionals, that is a lot of people's goals.

And we can talk [00:05:00] about, and it would be really good to hear your thoughts about transitioning from quote unquote mainstream architecture to working in house for a developer. But maybe you can tell me a little bit about the Naomi era. Was that when you were younger in industry and you were learning the ropes and she was there with her?

I don't know. You know what she's like. She gets things and she's got her own style. Yeah. It'd be great to hear. I

David Drews: like that. The Naomi era. Yeah. So I worked with Naomi on my first ever job out of university, as in first full time job after graduating. And that was for Who previously knew come back and Marshall and then later they separated and Became stephen marshall architects that I worked for but yeah, that was my first role.

It was really exciting. I still remember Arriving in london the first time And getting out of the taxi at the gainsborough studios, which is where they were based And yeah, Naomi was there. She was a little bit older than me and she was like a bit of a sort of mentor figure to me and then we became friends, but [00:06:00] yeah it's really interesting that you bring that up because it I remember that feeling of being a part two student and yeah, not really knowing where everything was going.

You, you've got no idea where it's going at that point, right? Or maybe some people do. Maybe some people have got more of career trajectory in mind at that young age, but I certainly didn't I was just really excited to get work and to be coming to London. And, it was on, I was on like a relatively low salary, but I thought it was a massive salary at the time.

And I was just really excited about it. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I remember that era was similar for me where I remember when I got my part one role, it was during the 2009 recession. And I felt like I was given a gift from God. I felt so, so privileged. And I had the same thing. You rock up to the office. And I was like, I don't know anything.

I'm really glad to be here. And you just, you'll do anything. I felt like that guy who would run to the kitchen to make tea. Cause I'm so appreciative of it. And I still really love architecture in, in, in terms of that. But I tell you what, the more and more I do these podcasts, I think everyone has that feeling and I would challenge anyone.

[00:07:00] I think everyone at some point has had that feeling when they. Oh, I don't know anything. And I think every now and then I get it sometimes where I think imposter syndrome is quite normal. Sometimes you get caught up. It's like that moment and you're like, how did I get here? What? How do you know?

And you can doubt it, but no, you've done really well. So you did all, you did several years, but you're so in, in industry as well. And forgive me, but you didn't, you work at, is it TP Bennett? Is that correct?

David Drews: Yes. I guess I can give you a bit of a nut, describe it in a nutshell because it's slightly unusual what I did.

Working at Muenchenbeck and Marshall, I realized that I was working on pre planning work and my professional studies advisor at the time said you probably wouldn't get enough experience to be able to sit your part three, which I was just desperate to get over and done with.

So I then moved to a company called Christian Garnet Architects. They're a great firm. And I did my part three with them, was with them for about a year and a half. And then that was when the recession hit end of [00:08:00] 2008. And we were a firm of 12 people. And the day before Christmas, I think it was 2008 eight of us got made redundant

Stephen Drew: because of the day

David Drews: before

Stephen Drew: Christmas.

That's

David Drews: literally the day after the Christmas party. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's I don't know whether that's the being objective. I'm not sure that's the best time to pull the plug. It's hey, yeah, I mean,

David Drews: Christian Garner is a great, was a great boss. And he was. doing what he thought was the best thing to do at the time and giving us a chance to prepare our portfolios over Christmas and also be able to enjoy the Christmas party without knowing you're going to get sacked.

So I think that was the logic to it.

Stephen Drew: You were hung over and then they're like, by the way, sorry, it's been

David Drews: difficult. It was dark. Yeah, it was grim. And I've got a lot of sympathy for young people at the moment who are finding themselves in similar positions, because when it happens to you and you've got no experience of it happening before then. It's really scary. You know what I [00:09:00] mean? Not knowing what kind of, how long the recession is going to go on, how long you're going to be in this position. But I think now with the current situation we're in, I felt like that experience prepared me for this year.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway managed to get some contract work stayed, managed to stay in employment, went into, did a lot of refurb commercial fit out at that point and ended up working for Wells Macarith, who were based in Mayfair. Wells Macarith were an amazing firm, it was one of my, the favorite jobs I ever had.

But I choose to leave, I chose to leave in 2010 to go and live in Spain, which was in like the worst sort of economic situation I've ever been in for for a partner, so for a sort of career suicide, if I think about it in hindsight, I was really being led by my heart, not by my head at that point.

And luckily ended up, [00:10:00] managed to get work for a small agency, which did projects for Nike. And then projects all across Spain and Portugal doing Nike stores, Nike shopping shops, and then Barca stores and Barca shopping shops. And then that culminated in the 2013 refurbishment of the Camp No Megastore project.

So that was Nike's biggest project in 2013 and it continues to be the largest football store in the world. I think today And at that point my personal circumstances were different and then I decided that it was time uk because I couldn't see how I was going to progress beyond that within in spain at that time That was when I went back to T.

P. Bennett. I felt it was really important to get back into traditional sort of architecture role. And then that was when I eventually got the role with

Stephen Drew: Alec Dundon. Wow. Okay. That's brilliant. That was a really nice, what I like about that is as well, I appreciate your humility. Cause sometimes, like you said, when you're in the moment, people can make decisions.

Which feel [00:11:00] rational and you look back, you might feel different. But the point was you got there and you persevered through it. Let's touch upon briefly there. Maybe it's a little segment right now, because I think you hit the nail on the head that actually there's a lot of parallels with what you went through then and the current situation now.

And so you're on it. We were, we joke, I joke a little bit about the Christmas party because it's just the timing, but you're right. Maybe it was the nice thing to do because there's some point either. What you were saying is that your employer at the time, he had to make the decision that Unfortunately, he couldn't keep people on staff and there's no good time to ever do it.

But what what I'm interested in is you at the time managed to find a bit of contract work. And what would be for anyone listening now, before we talk a little bit more about your career, anyone listening now that might have been made redundant or people feeling a bit cautious about the second wave of looking for a job.

Is there any. quick bits of advice that you would give for anyone or things that come to the top of your head? Don't read the news, don't read

David Drews: the newspaper. Like I literally had to stop at that point [00:12:00] because I, it became clear to me that if I was to continue reading like the Metro and the Tube every day at that point, then I was never going to get a job because it was so depressing what I was reading.

And by doing that, I was, I did get a job, so it was saying, okay, I understand that situation's difficult. The numbers are against me, but there is work out there.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I've noticed that as well. And I think you're right. Cause even now I was looking at the employment statistics or unemployment statistics, should I say right now?

And if you look at that number, then you're right. You just feel like I would just give up in terms of you'd feel like you'd give up, but it was. During 2009, I remember my friend who I did a podcast with the other day, Will McDaniel, his answer to it at the time was to send a lot of CVs out. And so what we found is that a few people in the studio would send 20 to 30 CVs and that he actually sent three to 400.

Okay, maybe they weren't as personalized at the start, but the point is he got them into you. And what I always say is that, of course, there should be always a few practices [00:13:00] which you love. So say now, if I always admired Allied London and I wanted to work there, I would write you a custom bespoke letter.

Why with a CV tailored towards Allied London. I just think right now as well, you have that. And then you almost have to, in my opinion, have a version where you cast the net a little bit wide and you have maybe a more generic CV, especially when you're at the junior end and you haven't got the industry experience yet.

Where you. Approach companies that you maybe you don't know before and then when you go for an interview you learn more about them and then you get more engaged because if you're a graduate, I think you've got to be super open minded and almost go a little bit off the beaten track right now.

You know what I mean? Because I think there's going to be a lot of people applying for fosters and partners is what I'm saying. And. As Steven Marshall's smaller practice, a lot of people might not have known about back then. And what I'm saying is that there's probably a bit more chance in terms of employment.

Okay, so you've got to be open minded and not read the news. So we agree on that. So now we're going to [00:14:00] go. We'll speed the time back up to TP Bennett. So you've done a lot of that stuff and TP Bennett, great company as well. What I'd love to hear your thoughts on is moving over to Allied London.

Was that was moving to a developer something you always wanted to do, David?

David Drews: No, but maybe the idea of going client side. So when I was working for Nike in Spain. So I'm exclusively, I was like an account manager for Nike within the agency that I was working for. So my projects were exclusively for them.

And at that point, I really did want to go client side and work for Nike. And then an opportunity came up for that, which would have meant me going to live in Amsterdam. At the time I decided that I wasn't prepared to put myself through that kind of foreign country experience again. Do you know what I mean?

Knowing that I would have struggled to have ever learned Dutch to a level that I would have been able to integrate there. So this idea of going client side was, yeah, it was definitely like the seed was planted at that point, but I think it was [00:15:00] during the time working at TP Bennett that I almost formulated the idea of the job that I would like to have rather because I'd always just taking the job that I could get.

And I think this is maybe where. Yeah, maybe where I wasn't as strategic as some people are or I didn't have the education around that about how to be strategic in terms of a career plan. So I formulated it myself. I came up with the idea of I'd quite like to be in a situation where I am.

Managing designers and, nurturing young designers and then lo and behold, the opportunity allied opened up and that wasn't the role originally the role I was originally coming as a sort of design management role, but then it turned into this role that I formulated in my own mind, which was quite amazing.

Yeah,

Stephen Drew: I love it. And it was a testament to the strengths of the projects come out allied London clearly. A lot of design goes into it, and that's a really interesting relationship you talk about as well, because you're effectively on the client's side, you work for [00:16:00] London, your whole role is to get awesome buildings, which you do.

The portfolio is amazing and it's quite interesting in terms of managing external architects, truly your role in architecture. And now you've seen both sides of the coin as well, isn't it? Where you've got all the constraints and all the stuff, but then I'm sure there are cases where there are examples where you can see an architect and you think you can do better, they can do better, and you would encourage them, but at the same time as well.

I'm sure there's been a few examples where you've had to push the design along and what's it like man is being, whereas before you were that person, how does it feel to be on the other side of the table?

David Drews: I guess I feel like I'm on, on one hand on the one part of the role I have on the other side of the table, but on the other one, I'm not, I'm the one like vying for the work. So that kind of helps to ground it. If because my approach to that is always to be that I would never ask of an architecture of a design team, something that I wasn't willing to do by my [00:17:00] willing to do myself, or what something that we're not doing within our own internal design team.

Do you know what I mean? In terms of standards and dedication to the project or whatever. And obviously managing people. Being a designer, and people don't, in architecture, you're not taught how to manage people. So it really is a kind of learning on the job.

And that one is an ongoing kind of area of growth for me. You know what I mean? I don't feel like I've got that a hundred percent yet, but I continue to try and refine the way that I do that. And what I would say is that, um, you get far better results by building people up and by tearing them down.

Yeah,

Stephen Drew: I agree with that. I think that is so fundamental. And actually, I've learned that as well. And because I, similar to yourself, there's a lot of my roles, especially in the last year or two is managing teams. And, you work across my team. Steven, he works on my team, everything. And it's been an absolute.

The interesting turn of events and what, especially doing, we're talking about the pandemic and [00:18:00] everything. Now you try managing the team. There is no, there's no book right now to say how to manage a team during coronavirus. It is absolutely new territory. And like yourself, I found that now I'm much more confident in it, but actually managing people at the start, it is a task that no one quote unquote trains you for, and like in architecture school.

I. There's so much that in terms of even my role now, like in a, from architecture school, you learn how to present, you learn how the credit gives me like the confidence to do this, to speak to people like yourself and have these really interesting discussions. But you are right. There's certain things in architecture school such as some aspects of the business, of the AR of architecture and management that maybe.

You don't get so much experience with and you have to learn. So I did a podcast just before this with my friend Alicia and she was talking about architecture fees, and that kind of aspect of it. And that's an example, David, as well. And, from both sides of working in [00:19:00] architecture and now as well.

You're a developer. The point is, it's very, there's a lot of things, even like such as in business of, if you don't establish a good fee that you can do the work on or a good budget, then these decisions at the start can absolutely cripple your team, cripple things. And so I imagine what there's been loads of examples that you've learned to, like you said, getting things right at the start or getting the right team and all these things that you're not, you pick up over time by doing it, but there's no one way to do it.

You learn. Over time, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think I suspect, go

David Drews: on, sorry. No, please, jump ahead. No, it's just, I was just thinking about this idea of that, I suspect there's some people who are like more naturally gifted around like having more business minded just naturally whereas some people are more design orientated, my, because I am more design orientated, I, my business strategy is to do good design. Do you know what I [00:20:00] mean? And that I'll, I trust that I'll, that you can fill in the other areas if you're. Your main sort of core thing is good.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I think it's like the Dyson theory and that's what your design is so good.

I think the design is stands up for itself. And actually that's the point. Really good design stands the test of time. And I think that really is the difference between being noticed and not. And actually, I think in that sense of what you're saying exceptional design, built, executed, it kind of sets, it opens up the other doors then, doesn't it? Because if the design is so good, then, from an architect's point of view, then your fees are better and, from your point of view, that if when Allied London succeeds, so you mentioned a few projects earlier. Then you wouldn't work on the back of that as well, isn't it?

Because good design can make an impact. It gets publicized. It goes the whole way. And you don't want to be known as the developer where the buildings fall down in a few years. Or like I joke, [00:21:00] I joke, I've got, oh, yeah, let's talk about it. I've got a leaky roof. I've got a leaky roof right now.

And Peabody, I know you do some really good schemes, but with my scheme, Peabody, you're letting me down. And this is the point of that is bad design. It is bad design. I'm sure at some point, some decision was made, but basically when it rains like this weekend, I get rain coming in all the time, and you don't want to be known, David, as the leaky roof guy, but I know you're not.

You're safe. Your projects are good, but let's talk a little bit briefly about as well. Cause what I liked about what you were saying earlier, you weren't seeking per se. Like you weren't saying I have to go client side. You were attracted to certain things off it. But the point was you chose Allied London because of the opportunity there.

And we probably would be a good time to talk about this because I see a lot of people in terms of approach McDonald and Company, which is where I run the architecture team going. I want to go client side and I'm like, okay, why? First of all, and there can be a few reasons it could be because there's, [00:22:00] I think there is a perception of, oh, it's easier, there's more money.

And I was, I almost giggled sometimes cause I know the amount of work you do. I know the amount of work everyone does. And it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And you champion design, you steer design, but a lot of these roles you touched upon design management and stuff. You have to almost.

Let go of traditional architecture responsibilities where, and that's what I sometimes challenge it. When people say they want to go client side, I always say, are you sure you want to let certain things go? Because I imagined in terms of what your role is now, you and you help steer the airline London and you get the design to the awesome point it is, but it's a very different role than what you were doing before a TP Bennett and Steven Marshall and everything, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

David Drews: Yes. I think, although I think my role here is slightly different from what some of the roles that come up for architects and developers, where it's much more of a design management focus, I'm [00:23:00] lucky that, when I came here, I remember the managing director saying to me, Oh, you won't, you're not going to be drawing anymore.

We're not going to give you CAD software. You shouldn't be drawing. That was the, what they said. They still haven't got the CAD software off me. You know what I mean? I still, I'm enjoying this morning. I just, I can't stop that. But good for you. There are yeah, there are definitely roles where you wouldn't be doing that.

You know what I mean? And I do think that some people are, architectures, it's a hard profession, and of the things mention before.

There's not enough credit given to delivery architects, I think there's something really like noble and satisfying about being a good delivery architect. You know what I mean? We, that's something that we find here out of London because we're very design led ourselves.

We do lead the design and often I'll lead the concept design myself, but And I have experience of delivering as well, right? So my role at TP Bennett was as a delivery architect and being able to make something real to build it is incredibly satisfying. And there is a constant stream of work for good delivery architects.

Do you know what I [00:24:00] mean? Because people always need them.

Stephen Drew: It's very well said actually, cause I work with them. So Adamson's associates. They're really good. I work with a bear attack as well. So shout out to them. They're listening, but you're right. That. And I had to work out, cause I remember in terms of criminal, I was like, what is an executive architect?

And this, I was like, it sounds like an executive producer. What do they do? And I know what you mean, actually, that's, a good executive architect. The point is if you have this amazing idea. It's it reminds me of this like the Steve Jobs and the what's his name the guy in the back The point is Steve Jobs can have the vision, but you need someone that can realize it and yeah I yeah, there is an art to delivering the projects.

Renzo piano designed the shards Adamson's Associates made sure that thing stood up and I I agree with you. I think that it's But it's interesting you mention it, because it's true, sometimes it's almost like the back, the less publicized side of architecture, actually, isn't it? Exactly, yeah.

David Drews: [00:25:00] And that's why I brought it up, because I feel like some people probably get a bit bogged down when they're in that role. I know I certainly did. But what I didn't know then was that, to become a good delivery architect, it takes a long time. Do you know what I mean? To become a good architect takes a long time, but there's so much to learn that I think it's not until you've got like a really solid knowledge of all the kind of main areas that you can start to enjoy the role.

And, if I had to be a delivery architect today, that's something that I would be quite happy to do you know what I mean? And that's what I want to say about people who feel like they, they want to go client side is that, there, there is a lot of respect and,

Stephen Drew: satisfaction in being a delivery architect.

It's very interesting. And you raise a point as well, which I find is interesting, that I think anyone starting out as well, I think it's so important to see all Reba stages and try to get a building from A to Z, or was it Reba stages one to six? Because the experience you get that, let's say, hypothetically, you do enjoy design stages more.

[00:26:00] So to someone out there, the point is, if you've built things through construction, it informs your design so much because, all the obstacles on site, the process, and then you have a more understanding of that point and that it informs your design. And I think is. As well, it's what I quite like is, as you said, that actually see there's some architects that are so innovative and solving problems on site, which is like an art form in itself.

But I think anyone would you agree as well? Anyone may be more in the junior stages or someone in their careers and they part three or anything. Would you also advise to see buildings all the way through? Or what do you think is like the best way to bolster up your skills.

David Drews: I forgot one but maybe it links back to the previous point that like, interestingly I think the people who are most likely to go client side are the ones who are in that kind of role like a delivery architect and they're very good and they get noticed by the client team for example.

Do you know what I mean? The irony is that if you're very good at your job and you're [00:27:00] maybe even enjoying it or have a sort of passion for it. That's what's going to get noticed. That's what's going to get noticed by people. And so I would say the same thing about the type of architecture or the type of work that people get into is that follow what your passion is.

Within the field of architecture, because I remember doing the Nike stores when, in the midst of this recession in Spain and thinking to myself when I was doing these sort of smaller shop and shop projects and things to myself, that I was being looked down on, or that it was less.

Prestigious area of my profession, but looking back at it, it was actually it's, again, it's really rewarding work. It's really fun. And I love doing it. You know what I mean? I really loved the sort of it was fast paced and it was a lot of creativity and you would see a project from start to finish within sort of six months.

You know what I mean? So there was a real kind of satisfaction in that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. It's I thought it was really interesting what you said. The point is that say now you work at an executive architect who's having fun or doing things and solving problems as working with you [00:28:00] professionally, and maybe a little laugh in there as well.

The point is if you're going to hire someone on your team and you, cause you are effectively a higher manager as well, that's probably the first person you're going to think about is that you're going to be like. Dave's good. Let's get Dave on or, Chanel, she's kicking ass. She's a real strong architect.

And I agree with you that actually it's a really good point to make, because obviously in terms of professional, being a professional, I think that if you leave a practice, you should always leave one a good. On a good note is these relationships in terms of where you work is so important. And I love that analogy.

The point is if you're enjoying it, I think it gets noticed. And that's a really good point to make. Actually one, probably if you're, if you are interested in client sites, then. With the clients you work for, they should be someone that you actually want to impress. It's probably a risk, but I think it's a really good life lesson.

I find that a lot of my opportunity has come out for that [00:29:00] as well. So I think that's really good advice. And obviously, and now we don't want to talk about the news day. We don't want to talk. We're not going to go on about the coronavirus. I promise that's the last time I bring it up, but What I would like to say without being specific, so this month over this year has been a stressful time for everyone, right?

And there's definitely been some obstacles you've had to overcome. But where I'm going with this is because you've had to adjust, everyone's had to adjust. And we're still going to go through it. There might even be a, this might even continue, but what's your kind of advice for anyone out there?

Is it to keep going and power through things and adapt or any words of wisdom?

David Drews: Oh yeah, the one that I always try and come back to whenever, if there's a period of difficulty or uncertainty, it's just, show up for work on any given day and do the best job you can.

Do you know what I mean? I've found that would always work for me, but ultimately things will sort themselves out, if I'm [00:30:00] my experience has been hard work always pays off,

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think so. It's a testament. The quality of buildings you've done it says that, and sorry, I said on no tricky questions, but then that was a tricky one.

Cause when I asked that, I was like, what would I say to that? I feel the same. It we're all working it out as we go. And I think what I've enjoyed about this podcast and a few other things is that it's more about, there is no code book for quote unquote, your role. You are your role. You are learning it.

You are every day you improve. Sometimes mistakes happen. People learn from it. I think that's what it's about. And I love your analogy of showing up because it's basically like right now. It's an ongoing battle, or I think of it like a marathon. And if you don't think of it like a marathon, it's it's definitely going to be a marathon in the way this is going.

You have to just keep going. Oh, what's the alternative? Just shrivel up and stay at home and watch Netflix and give up and come on, we've got to go out there. [00:31:00] Let's get the bell, we need to get out there. I think yeah, we have to, don't we? And it's difficult for me as well, because in terms of architectural recruitment, we speak blunt as well.

You, your role as well it's great what you've done. At the same time, there's always difficulties there. It's not like you're bringing me up right now, unfortunately, although David do ring me up if you're the only one for your team. And I promise I'm working extra hard, but I've had to adjust as well.

And it's been challenging for me because the different ways I've gone about recruitment, I've completely had to change because the market, and I mentioned one or two podcasts about this, where I try to almost bring back the curtains on recruitment. Cause now you've seen both sides of it.

And it's quite funny. You can know, because recruitment is his own. Mad little world and oh, let me rephrase that recruitment when you understand then there is a process to it, but there's also the humanisms of it. Things go wrong. Things change things. There's a lot of moving [00:32:00] parts and you've seen both sides and that as well.

And in terms of how I work it before. What you would do is, for instance, let's pretend I met you five years ago, or I met someone who was a BIM specialist, you would go out and you would find the right roles for them. You would go and I would say, David, I've met a Revit genius, or I'd say I've met someone with raw potential.

I think they're amazing. Are you interested? And you'd go, yeah, but, and, but right now it's very different as in the employer has a lot more choice. And so actually the roles that I am working on, it's more from an efficiency standpoint from them. So it's completely changed because if you were a few years ago, Like 2015, 2016, and you were kicking ass and you were respectful and you had done a lot of good projects.

I think you could walk down the road and you could get, if you'd be respectful, but you would end up in a few places and you would get a lot of offers. And [00:33:00] right now it is completely the other way, isn't it? I'm sure you get a lot of applicants for Allied, you'd love to reply to them all, but.

There's constraints that everyone is in right now where the first person that you have to speak about is your team adjusting. So it's a really stressful time for all, but maybe it goes back to your advice before of if you are someone looking, if you are an architect or a professional, you don't look at the news and keep powering on.

But there are people that are getting jobs right now. It's not completely doom and gloom. It's just, what's the point we're saying? It's tougher, isn't it? You have to work harder, you have to be more engaged, you have to turn up to the office, you have to keep powering through. It's difficult.

David Drews: Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, it's, there are people in a really difficult situations at the moment. I don't know, everything have a lot of sympathy for them. I, what I would say is that it's maybe a time for some people to, reflect on, on what they actually want to do, where they want to go, be able to start to define, and the example of this role, it [00:34:00] was, there was a point where I got to where I was just quite frustrated with the work that I was doing. And then I was just like, actually, I want to do something like this, rather than just having to accept what was there.

There is, people do have time at the moment to reflect and I think that's, there are people who are benefiting from that for, because I'm like any other for

Stephen Drew: reflection. Yeah. Even a literal sense with me was that the architecture social was my project from we joked about isn't it?

Cause I told you the truth. I was like, I'm part time fellow. And at first it was fun, but then after that I was just going insane. So when I say insane or not literally insane, don't take me away or anything like that. But what I mean is that. I needed it's like the architecture output that we joke about that I needed something to get my teeth into and I think that and I felt that it would be a good thing to a help students out people can interact and the ideal goal is that so you know you have a graduate role at Allied London and when it pops up you can [00:35:00] just post it there.

Why not? It's good for everyone. It's good for people in the industry and you know there's really good things that come out of it such as a book club. But yeah, the point is if I you. If I didn't use that time in a certain way, or I didn't want to do something, then yeah, I could have missed that opportunity.

But what the other thing of what I would say is that there is no chance I would have had the time to set up the Architecture Social if I was still working full time at that time. So now I'm returning to full time next week. What's good is that the community is there and I will tap into it out of hours.

And it's quite nice that the ball started going, but that project, there's no chance that I could have got it going because these things require momentum and they require a lot of time. And I goes back to your point of, it was a pause of a moment of, I'm going to do something during this time. Some other examples, I've got some friends that, they're getting back into their [00:36:00] art, they're getting back into any, everything.

Have you been just working flat out? kicking ass at Allied Londoner? Have you done anything nice?

David Drews: No, interestingly, so as I was just, what I was just thinking about when you were describing that, because yours is like a perfect, the perfect example of, this period and this idea that boredom is often the birthplace of creativity.

You know what I mean? Some people, because we're often always so busy, but it's actually when you clear. clear the space and you've got nothing to do. That's when real kind of creativity can come out because you, you need to find a way of entertaining yourself.

My experience in the lockdown has been that the type of the way in which we work changed significantly. The sort of admin side or the more sort of business strategy side of my role. That sort of stuff quiet, quieted down a little bit. So I was then, had more space to focus on the design stuff.

And what I found is that during the lockdown period, I've produced some of the, some of the creative work that I've been most proud of.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I have, it's quite a nice note [00:37:00] and thank you. That makes me feel a bit bad because you get them times.

Yeah. And I've absolutely enjoyed it and I've had a few people. I've had a lot of really good stories come out of it. I know people have got jobs, man, that really makes me happy and it's really worth all the time. But Hey, maybe it would have been a bit easier to learn a bit of guitar.

Next time we'll try not to do a Facebook or a. I think it's a bit more than that, but the article social I really do enjoy and I really appreciate your support on that as well. So for me, I've quite enjoyed this chat as well. I think we've had a nice cover. We've covered a few topics. I think.

Maybe we can return down the line at some point if you, maybe we can, we'll talk about a particular, it might be nice to talk about if say now with Ally, London's got a certain project coming up, then maybe we can go into it. I'd love to hear maybe a bit more of a, we can do a little specific show and tell perhaps about talking about our project, talking about your process on there.

But I just felt like [00:38:00] for this first one, we went into the deeps of it and then we had a little nice little note at the end. So I, I think wise words from you, it's a nice chance to reflect. That's what you're saying, isn't it? And to change and to experiment before we gear up. So on that note, David, so where can listeners find you at the moment?

I know you're on the architectural social, but other than that, you're on LinkedIn and, can you let us know where Allied London's website is and where you're at? Yeah, so I, I guess

David Drews: I'm on LinkedIn. You just need to go. If you Google my name plus R Iba, that's how you'd find me on LinkedIn. Alli website is www allied the.

The design team portion of all is www studio heart co uk. And we've also got

Stephen Drew: Instagram so amazing. Oh, it's probably worth mentioning. Just before we go as well, that me and you actually not related, are we [00:39:00] Andrew And you are Drew . We're not related. I've never hear Dr. Before though. That's the new one.

I

David Drews: get mistaken for a drew all the time. So do

Stephen Drew: you, do you. Oh, there's my little alarm clock, sorry. At the end of the alarm went off. It was professional up until the end, but that's fantastic. David Drewes, it's been an absolute pleasure. I am, I've really enjoyed this. I absolutely admire all the work that you do.

It's always good to work for you at Allied London and yeah. Let's let's watch this space and your next building. I want to know all about it. Thank you so much, David. Speak soon.