Designing Offices That Inspire: The Future of Workplaces, ft. Greta Kriovaite
Designing Offices That Inspire: The Future of Workplaces, ft. Greta Kriovaite
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[00:00:00]
Stephen Drew: Hello everyone and welcome to an Architecture Social special. Today, we're going not only in the world of architecture, but in the world of interior design, and all those places that you were before in the pandemic, and are now returning to, these special spaces that we spend most of our lives. So they better be good, right?
I think we need to have an expert here, someone that understands commercial spaces, and what that is going to look like in this continuing, evolving, post pandemic world. And on that note, I've got the amazing Greta Kay, as I call her. Greta Kay? Get my Bartlett bell ready. Greta Kay? Who is Design Principal at Woodall's.
Greta, how are you?
Greta Kriovaite: Hi, Stephen D. I'll be calling you Stephen D. then. I [00:01:00] think that's how we're saying now.
Stephen Drew: That's how we roll. That's how we rock and roll on this show. How are you doing, though? Are you okay?
Greta Kriovaite: Great. I love this uplifting intro. You could really tell it's Friday from your voice.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, absolutely. I'm slightly hungover. I'm looking for that hair of the dog. But,
Greta Kriovaite: great.
Stephen Drew: I'm 100 percent in present in person. I've been, we've been building up to this for a while, for a laugh. Now, while me and you know each other, and we're beginning to learn a bit more, getting all the technical stuff out of the way, but we got you.
All right, but maybe the audience doesn't know who you are, Greta. Can you first of all, tell us a little bit about yourself?
Greta Kriovaite: Thanks for having me. And as you said, we've tried to organize it for the last, almost half a year, I think, from our first conversation, but we finally got here with a few technical Challenges, but we're here, it's Friday, and let's do this. How personal do I get about describing who I am, what I do?
I think we're going to stick by professional, okay? So let's say, let's start [00:02:00] with what I do at Woodallstown with Design Principle, right? I'm super passionate about design and especially, Workplace and how we help to, how we will help our clients to transform their spaces into these inspiring, amazing environments where we support their teams in doing their best work, achieving their best potential.
at work. So I look after our amazing, talented team here in London. So our HQ is in London, but we do have hubs in Europe as well. So in Milan, in Madrid, Paris, Berlin but the key core design team is based in London. So I lead the team and together with our amazing team, we look after our various clients and we make sure that we Understand what their expectations are for the future workplace.
At the beginning of the project, we always do a lot of listening, which is key, and really trying to define that. The why are we doing this? Why are we doing that project? What are we trying to achieve [00:03:00] with that project and the outcome of it? And then we've got this very holistic approach at Woodles where we take the project from start to finish.
So that will be from the strategy discovery stage, all the way to concept design development, technical design, delivery, and post occupancy as well. So we have everything in house. So we have all the experts in house, which makes sure that we, our clients are receiving a very. Seamless, user friendly experience with the best experts at Woodles.
, every day is different. There isn't one day the same. And I, I realized recently that I do get bored easily. Being busy and dipping in, in, sometimes there might be five projects around the day that I've got some sort of input. And I love it. I love the novelty of every day, every week, meeting new people, meeting new clients, learning new things, experimenting, being curious.
Yeah, it's been really good. It's [00:04:00] been really exciting. We're working on some really exciting projects with amazing clients. The people is what creates that amazing experience and we've definitely got that.
Stephen Drew: Oh very cool. Now, if you've ever listened to the Diary of the CEO podcast, he Stephen Bartlett, who's good. I'm not quite as good as Stephen Bartlett, hopefully get there one day, but he goes all the way back to people's parents. I'm not going to do that. So we'll skip that bit in this podcast as well.
However. I do think it's quite cool to learn the roots of where you've come from and that journey to get there because you've worked really hard to become the design principal and we're going to talk a bit about, your thoughts of being in the commercial space and what that involves. However, Humble roots, right?
So you you were in Birmingham city and the University of Brighton with a bachelor's degree in interior architecture. So what drew you to do that degree? First of all, did you [00:05:00] feel like you wanted to do it? And what was it like if you can remember a little bit?
Greta Kriovaite: So I will take you about 30 years ago first, because this is where I discovered really that passion for art.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: Since I remember my biggest passion, my biggest hobby as I was a child, since I learned how to hold a pen, I was drawing constantly. I remember there was this essay my mom told me about, I was like 6 or 7 or something, it was like the first year of primary.
And the topic was Tell us what makes you sad or disappoints you or something. And one of the key points within my, three sentence essay back then, considering I was six or seven, I said that I am the saddest when there's no paper at home. And my mom was like, please, can you specify it's a drawing paper, not any, other type of paper, so that they [00:06:00] know.
So for me, this was, if there was no drawing paper at home, that would be the saddest thing for me because I wouldn't have a creative space to express my creativity and doodle and so on. So I was always super creative and always holding that pen and I've still got so many folders of hundreds and hundreds of pieces of my various drawings using fingers, watercolors, acrylics, etc.
And so at the end of my school, I knew that I will want to pick a pathway that Kind of helps me to embrace that creativity throughout my life, and I'm going to go off topic a little bit, but I feel like when, as a child, when you find that calling, whether that's music or arts or dance, when you find that calling, that becomes your hobby, and then if you apply it to life, What you're going to do for the rest of your life, I think, is probably [00:07:00] the luckiest experience ever.
Don't you think? You're an architect yourself and, I get to do what I love every single day. I get to create, working with my team. For me, sometimes, Going to work or, my job is something that I truly love and enjoy doing every single day.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. It was interesting. I was at a talk last night that talked about it being a vocation, but sorry, you were going to say something else. Carry on.
Greta Kriovaite: no I just think, you and I, we were really lucky to discover that, that hobby of creativity, architecture, interior design fine art fashion design, or music that people discover early at at their early childhood. so much. And then continue to pursue that within their adult lives and that becomes a very important key part of their everyday lives. So I wanted that to become the creativity to become that super important, precious key of my everyday life and become my job. So this is when I started to think about [00:08:00] more practically. What can I do? What can I do that is creative but also affects people or supports people or services other people?
And this is when I thought that I could combine my creativity and design for 3D dimensional spaces. And I, I didn't really think about architecture. I knew I wanted to do interiors because in a way I think they're a lot more intimate. so much. You might disagree with me. It all starts from the outside, of course, as an architect yourself.
However, the interior space is so, it's a lot more intimate and personal, and we spend most of our time inside, not outside. It's really important what that environment not just looks like, but what, how it makes you feel. How does it stimulate you? How does it encourage you every single day? Whether that's home or a [00:09:00] hotel, which is part of your holiday experience, or that's a physical workplace.
Will you come in and, as me, for example, a designer who wants to master the art of workplace design, and do I have the right space for me to do that?
Stephen Drew: Yeah, no very cool. I think it's interesting. Last night I was speaking to someone who was like, I love master planning and urban design. And then equally right next to them was someone like, ah, no, I'm not interested, give me the interiors. Give me that warm, cozy space. I want to feel, I want to get that feeling.
So it really, it's really an amazing feel like that. Now I'm curious because. When you graduate, right? So you graduated from Brighton. We're all looking for jobs. We're all going around. And I find it interesting that sometimes junior architects, they get their first job and they get plonked on a project, right?
And it's you're going to be on a science project. And people go, Oh my God, I've got to do laboratories. Or sometimes [00:10:00] people get plonked on offices or they get plonked on residential and It can be the thing that they find it can be they move on to others, but did you land and start beginning work on commercial spaces since the time you can remember?
Greta Kriovaite: I have, yes.
Stephen Drew: Cool.
Greta Kriovaite: first job was at Woods Bagot, and when we, when I graduated, there was still a lot of economic uncertainty, and it took me nearly a year to find my first job. I remember I was really desperate. I was living with my friends in Bermondsey in a little flat and we're all searching for jobs, working at cost at the same time, waking up at 5 a.
m., opening the store. I found London so depressing and I was so close to moving back to Lithuania because I was giving up. But then through a tutor through my tutor in Brighton who put me in touch with someone at Woods Bank and had that interview and got the job. So it was purely by luck and really when I, how I [00:11:00] see, I do see the shift in how I see my purpose as a workplace designer.
Like at the beginning of my career, it was a lot about the aesthetics how things look rather than how they feel. And also it had a lot to do with the, do I really understand the client? Do I really understand the brand? Do I really understand the teams, what they want? What is more suitable for me?
What they want as a team to, to support them and to support their business and their productivity levels. Or is it more personal what I want to implicate rather than listening to them? I don't know if that's making sense, but actually it went from aesthetic design to actually finding a deeper meaning in workplace design.
Because, at the end of the day, this is where we spend 30 percent of our time. lives. It's 90, 000 hours overall throughout our lifetime that we spend at work or working. So that second physical environment is super important. It's the most, it's the second most important [00:12:00] environment after the walls of our home, our personal space.
And I hear, have you heard of this term, hotelification of the offices,
Stephen Drew: No, carry. Yeah, please tell me.
Greta Kriovaite: which is, so since the pandemic, basically hotelification is. This is the trend of designing, creating office spaces that feel more like hospitality spaces, like a hotel lobby, for example filled with couches and so on. But I actually, I don't really agree with it. I feel like it's the homification.
Rather than hotelification, because you want those office environments to feel more like home rather than a hotel. Because a home is a lot more personal, it has a lot more character and personality and it's a space where you belong.
It's a space that kind of encourages and encourages the belonging of people and workplace should be.
really be that. It's that you're, you're, I'm not saying that your colleagues should be [00:13:00] your family. I think that's kind of bullshit. Your colleagues is not your family. Your family is your family, but that is that second tribe, that second, the community that you should feel like you belong to.
Because hopefully you're all working towards the same goals, whether that's building new offices, writing new songs, designing new trains, planting trees. Whatever that might be. What
Stephen Drew: yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting because I've worked in many different offices over the years. Architectural practice who designed their own office was pretty good. Then I worked somewhere else and it was trendy East London, not to swear or anything. It is my own podcast, but it was bloody awful, but it was it was leaking, it was damp, but it was cool and edgy.
And then I went to the WeWorks pre pandemic, which were, Kind of a nice area, but I used to call them the glass box coffins. Cause it was like, Oh, you're in cubicle.
Greta Kriovaite: like that.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. [00:14:00] Cause they were just totally glass pot coffins. And I think they struggled out of the pandemic. We use, we work now, but actually the ones that are do better, the one, the best we work.
So the ones where they had more design for open and collaborative space, and then you'll walk past the glass coffins and they used to cost a fortune. I used to pay them at one point. I look back. I'm like, Oh my gosh. What was I thinking? But now it's different. And it's quite interesting seeing the rise of these companies, isn't it?
So we work almost went bust as well, clinging on for dear life. And you've got the forum, which is a little bit like your hotelification, it's Ooh, this is a nice space. I feel like I'm in Soho house, Oh, I forget. I'm almost working. Do you know what I mean? But there are also these other cool spaces as well.
Where I was going with this is, have you seen a trend now of where things are going? You talk about what's fashionable. Do you have any predictions the way things are going at all?
Greta Kriovaite: Yes. First of all, I just want to comment on your glass [00:15:00] coffins. WeWork reference. Love that. Glass
Stephen Drew: You can take it, when you go into your meetings, you go, I'm not having any of those glass box coffins,
Greta Kriovaite: glass coffins. I'm just taking a note. Done. I think
Stephen Drew: there's no life in them, is there? It's just a box, what's going on? It's like a hospital ward. It's like clinical. There's no feeling, right?
Greta Kriovaite: Almost. I think they've done a great job designing those community spaces, the bar, the cafes, and the entry experience, arrival points. I think that's all great. And the, the founder of WeWork, he was, he's Israeli, and he's from Kibbutz. He was living in the Kibbutz as he was a child, and Kibbutz is a type of community in Israel that everybody kind of lives and works in a little village and everyone everything is shared so you would leave your doors open and everybody would be able to come in there's like super safe very community driven and the [00:16:00] inspiration was taken from so he tried to create this A community within work, and that's why so much attention was spent, and most of the money was spent on those spaces that encourage the getting together, the social events, and is where you can start building meaningful connections. But going back to your other questions, where do I see the trends of the workplace going in the next decade or so? I'm pretty sure that the office is here to stay. I think at the beginning, not so long ago, a few years ago, two years after the pandemic, everybody bought houses outside of London, in the countryside, by the seaside.
A lot of those people are regretting those choices now, in terms of the commute, because A lot of the CEOs are. Trying, starting to mandate coming back to the office or giving kind of the [00:17:00] advice of coming back two or three days a week. But I think at some point we're all like, oh, it's just going to stay.
We'll just be able to choose whether we can work from home or the office. And I think having that choice is super important, still, unfortunately, as you've heard, the, for example, Amazon they now got rid of remote working completely and everybody has to be in five days a week, which is very disappointing, and especially, which is really funny, it's a contradiction, because they want the people to go back full time, But they also have sustainability aspirations, right?
Hitting net zero in, by, 2026 or 2030. However, they're bringing all these people back on the road, driving into the office using more electricity, more energy, so it's just a very strange world. choice when you look everything in, when you take everything into consideration. So the office is definitely here to stay.
And we know that, [00:18:00] with the new 11 towers being built in the city of London by 2030, 2035, there's going to be an extra million square meters of office space. So the demand is still there. So it will stay. However, the function of it and the purpose of the office is slightly shifting.
Before we had no choice but to come into the office and it was a space for focus work. It was a space for collaboration. It was a space to meet clients. It was everything in one. And now a lot of the people are doing their high focus work at home and the office becomes this place of connection.
So a place of connection, a place of connecting, not just with the people, but also with the brand.
And a lot of designers or everyone saying also that it's a place of collaboration. And I'm a bit like, is it like, you can't expect [00:19:00] every physical workplace to become a hub for collaboration. And we have clients who would be challenging us and say, but wait, our new office is going to be a hub for collaboration.
So why do we have so many desks? Why are there so many desks in the Open Plan?
There's this misconception that you can't come into the office and expect people to collaborate from 9 to 5 and be in these incredible, amazing, inspiring collaboration spaces and meeting rooms because, unfortunately, most of us, most of the workforce, will be producing work, head down producing work.
So if you take for instance, if you take a call center,
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: those people don't need a lot of collaboration space. They need a workstation where they can focus. Acoustics really important and so on. They might need spaces to recharge, de stress after, a call with a very annoying client. But however, it's mostly problem solving, high focus.
Open plan environments. So the fact that [00:20:00] the office is just a hub for collaboration is a little bit semi bullshit, because the people who collaborate the most are the managers, the leaders who are, who have the privilege, the experience, and the expertise. To be collaborating the whole time, right?
Because you're managing people, you're communicating with other people, you're leading teams, you're managing teams, but the people who are actually doing the work, they need that safe space for solo thinking to actually sit down, have that quiet environment to do the work.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Interesting. Because I'm gonna sound really old fashioned here, but It's funny because I've got the staff coming and we'd say now we're in a weird workspace or whatever, right? I will always go for a desk with a nice ergonomic chair. Whereas one or two of my staff will balance basically a laptop off a sofa.
And like basically falling over, doing the work. And for me, it doesn't work, but not to say that doesn't work for them. And that's cool, [00:21:00] but I need a good seat. Like I've got an errand chair. Yeah. In my home office and I've had it for 10 years like a tank and it just works and I love it.
So I, and I have got my ergonomic mouse. I know this is Audi only, but it looks like a total spaceship. I look super uncool, but I need it for me. So it is interesting, isn't it? Like you say, because I want that desk, but then I can see why some people, maybe you want to send me breakouts based off a chat.
You can have a bougie area. And the last thing I'll say on that before we move on is ages ago, I was in Soho works when it was on my own and I thought, Oh, it's quite cool. And I was there and I was on this sofa. Yeah. And it was really cool. And I'm a big guy, right? And so I was sitting down there at the back and it was this cool looking sofa, but actually it was like two pieces of fabric, right?
Basically. Puffed up and so I put my back on it and the back piece fell off and then I fell off with my laptop on the floor, rolled on the floor and bear in mind, this is Soho work. So [00:22:00] I see you got all these cool hipsters and you just have me, Mr. Blobby, just knocking around. I remember thinking like. I need a desk.
So that was my rant. So I guess what I'm saying, and you touched upon it with the call center was the analogy of it's functional. So where's the balance of form? And where's the balance of function? And is there a trade off? Can you do both? Or do you also have to think with offices about wear and tear and use as well, rather than just looking cool and it gets totally smashed up?
Greta Kriovaite: You're right. It's a very good question and a very simple answer to it is that the design needs to be universal design and inclusive design. It shouldn't just accommodate for the different types of teams. Let's say finance will be doing a lot more head down work in comparison to a team of marketing who might be a lot more high energy, loud, noisy, collaborative, creative.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: Whilst you [00:23:00] need to accommodate for the different teams, there's also the different personalities. Who's an extrovert? Who's the introvert? And also taking in consideration the Over 20 percent of people with disability in UK and that could be a visible disability or not visible, but it's still it's nearly a, it's more than a fifth of our overall population.
So the design needs to be inclusive and cater for all needs. So whilst I'm not saying it needs to be all high focus spaces for solo working, but there needs to be a balance. of spaces where you socialize, collaborate, meet, creative spaces for extroverts or spaces that inspire where I go to re energize, but also spaces, quiet spaces where I can control the temperature, I can control the sound.
I know it won't be disturbed because at the moment I feel like a lot of offices are the worst places to actually do work because you're unable [00:24:00] to concentrate because it is overly distracting. might be sitting in Open Plan and you'll have 10 people on Teams talking out loud. How are you able to actually think and produce some quality work if you're not able to even hear yourself?
Stephen Drew: It's interesting.
Greta Kriovaite: And before, when you think about it, before we had Physical meetings. 90 percent of our meetings were physical, right? So you'd have, you'll be traveling to the meeting, you'll have that travel time in between the meetings, which could be up to an hour or 30 minutes. So you have that almost like a time to reflect, to rest to re energize.
Whilst now we've got a meeting after meeting. There's no time in between meetings to actually digest the information that you've received. So there's this cognitive overload. And stress and multitasking, it's a lot. So I think actually a lot of people [00:25:00] might say, Oh, we're working less because we're, working from home.
It's it's a lot more flexible and our well being has been boosted. But it's not really true. We're having more meetings than we had before. We're working later from home because, Now we have the flexibility to start work at 8 a. m. rather than by the time you travel to work you start work at 9.
There's a meeting after meeting and I think we're, if anything, we're spending more time working.
Stephen Drew: well,
Greta Kriovaite: more occupied and we're more stressed because of the technology. The technology is enabling us To work more
but whether that's a good thing.
Stephen Drew: I got you. So is a on this. So we got the two verticals in my head. You've got a client, which is Looking for their dedicated own space in one way, maybe that's easier to control, easier to design around them. Whereas when you've got, I guess I use the WeWork analogy, and you've got loads of businesses, including myself, there's phones, because we do a lot [00:26:00] of recruitment as well as the other stuff as well.
Yeah, do you have to, in your experience, is it like two, they're two totally different briefs, right?
Greta Kriovaite: Yeah. So one size does not fit all. And that's why the discovery stage, the getting to know the client stage is really important. And I think that's always, that's the most important part of the overall journey of design and delivery, because this is where you set the foundation for the rest of the design, like I mentioned before, redefining that why are we doing this?
What is the actual meaning? What is the purpose behind this project? It needs to be super clear and that the message should be super clear and easy for other people, your teams, to relate. Because if they can relate, they understand why we're doing this, then they will be more eager to follow you and to support you throughout that journey.
Every company is different. Every company is different brand, different mission, [00:27:00] different purpose, different people. So, it's not a copy and paste. It's never a copy and paste. We really dig deep. We really get under the skin of our client to understand exactly what they want and how can we best translate what they want.
their brand, how can we best illustrate and display the mission, the purpose of what they're, what they stand for. I'd like to believe that every project we produce is very different and, it's fit for purpose for depending on a client, really. You mentioned Stephen Barlett. And, funnily enough, I don't know if you've seen, he reposted this TED Talk by Ken Robinson, titled Do Schools Kill Creativity? Have you heard of this TED Talk?
Stephen Drew: Now, I can guess where it's going though. I'm guessing yes.
Greta Kriovaite: So I've re watched it again. If you [00:28:00] want to learn one thing today on a Friday, I, you're going to be, I think, blown away by that podcast. If you have 10 minutes, I highly recommend watching it because, first of all it's it's very true. He's saying basically that schools kill creativity because everyone's put in the same bubble, right?
And it's standards versus individuality. And it's literacy versus creativity.
And also that fear of, the fear of being wrong, testing, experimenting at school. We're all, we were all really scared to make mistakes, and that really kills creativity as well. And it made me think, like how similar are schools to the actual offices?
Stephen Drew: Good point.
Greta Kriovaite: A lot of offices do kill creativity because they're just so standard and a lot of offices are still quite bland and lack personality and you [00:29:00] And so corporate, and so really just not built for humans.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: where you don't want to spend eight hours of your time. So we need more offices that feel more personal, that have more character, that are built for humans, that encourage creativity, that encourage that curiosity and the exploration side of things, experimentation.
Have you heard of the Seeking System?
Stephen Drew: No.
Greta Kriovaite: Now, so I've read this incredible book recently called Active at Work. I can't remember the author. We can put it in the show notes or something. But basically, he talks about how we can use neuroscience to help people to do their best at work and help them love what they do.
And basically, the seeking system is the part in your brain that gets activated when you [00:30:00] are exploring, being curious. or experimenting, learning new things. So that gets activated within our brains and this is when the dopamine is being released. Because as humans, our nature is to constantly explore and Learn new things and experiment test we fail, we test, we try again, we learn through failure, we do things better the next time, and so on.
So the author really needs more spaces that activate the seeking system. Creating spaces, inspiring, amazing spaces where we can actually Be creative and test, just try new things. That make sense? Do you agree?
Stephen Drew: I think so. I like that experimentation. The only thing I was giggling in my head when you were talking about it is I've worked one place with blue cubicles and they, it was like the death.
Greta Kriovaite: sounds very inspiring.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, it was terrible, but in a bad way. It was like The Office. Do you remember The Office, the series with the cubicles [00:31:00] and people bored?
And yeah, I do think that's the death of creativity. How'd you get that going? I was going to ask you if you can embed, if you can, if I can pick your brains on something as well, because we talked about the future of offices. Now, I'm also interested in where you see the future of the profession going.
It's a two part question. One we see in technology, AI, it's a big topic. Everyone's it's rapidly. Going faster and faster. So I'd love your, your, your thoughts on is the current climate, the current innovation is going to affect, in your opinion, the profession. Maybe we start there and then I'll go on to the second part talking about the future.
Greta Kriovaite: That's a great question.
See and we've been testing ourselves a lot of AI softwares, plugins. That supports you in test fitting and zoning and producing layouts [00:32:00] for the different spaces. You give the brief and they will create a three dimensional, not only a two dimensional space, but a three dimensional space for some sort of basic finish application.
So you could basically get that generated within five minutes of sitting down at your computer. In five minutes, you'll get some sort of 3D outlook output, sorry. However all the softwares that we've tested lacks that personality.
And I'm sure in the next couple of years, you might be able to put more info about the client in the brief.
And AI only getting smarter. It's incredible, like just to chat to BT, like how far it's gone in the last couple of years.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: But at the moment, I see, I feel like, AI is a bit like, it should support us and it should, by helping us I'm hoping that as workplace [00:33:00] designers, we will be able to spend more time engaging with our clients, we'll have more time to, to think about the concepts and how we can translate the brand to think about the selection of the finishes and the furniture.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: Rather than being in the background producing 3D visuals, 2Ds, and so on. I think it will still need that human touch, a human artistic creative touch. Because, you, AI can paint you a picture, but that's painted by a robot. And then another one will be next to it, painted by a human being. And which one will be worth more?
It's the one that's painted by a real human because someone spent time, effort, imagination. I don't think you can yet replace the creativity of a human with the creativity of AI. It's crazy how it's moving up. Have you seen Elon Musk's robot?
Stephen Drew: Yeah. I know.
Greta Kriovaite: Self driving car,
Stephen Drew: I want one. [00:34:00] What's that say about it? But it's so
Greta Kriovaite: only 20,
Stephen Drew: yeah, it's crazy. And that would be the first version. And then what's the third version like? And you hit the nail on the head. ChatGP team, I use it so much in the business at the moment, but for very rudimentary data checks, stuff like that.
Very good. Very good. For example taking a piece of information and Tagging it, skilling it up. It's getting crazily accurate to the point where my partner has helped me with this manual entry task last year. Took a week. And then I scripted chat GPT and did the same thing. I did it in 12 minutes.
Then that's not the design piece you're talking about. However, in that piece, it's Oh my gosh, so cool. So maybe there's opportunity there, but I did say it's a two part with the future and because me and you, we both basically [00:35:00] studied around the same time. You started in 2008, I started in 2006.
West Virginia, like you, I was, when I was looking for a job there was nothing around. It was scary. I had to apply everywhere. There was no romantic, Oh, I sent my CV to five places and, delivered it in the office and got a job. It was like it was hardcore. But what I was wondering is studying now.
The graduates now in architecture, in interior design, like to, it's changed. Some things are the same. Some things have changed. Do you have any advice for people up and coming now, or might be entering the profession that you think would be useful?
Greta Kriovaite: One thing that I really value in people Is being curious.
And I think if I come across a CV and we can see that a person has tried using many different softwares has a different style of producing visuals, collages, whether that's hand drawings, so a kind of a varied skillset [00:36:00] that really.
Illustrates the passion for exploration.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: We want people like that. We want people who will bring a new perspective. People who will be, especially now with AI, looking for new tools that can support us within our 3D design, 2D design. Translating briefs, writing concepts, stories, helping us to pick the best finishes, the most sustainable, healthy finishes for the interiors, etc.
If I can see that, and it could come in many different forms, is there a little video attached? So that's another thing, like something that really stands out is Whether something, when you look at the CV, you go through a lot of CVs every week. But if people have spent a [00:37:00] little bit more time thinking, how can I make my CV stand out?
Is it like a little link to like a little video of me for for a minute and for a minute I'm just telling you who I am as a person and why am I passionate about design and why I'd be so passionate for working at Wood's It. So it feels like such a simple little, such a simple thing to do.
However, it could be so effective because this is something that you will remember. Humans have attention. Spam shorter than a gold, than a golden fish. It's free of four, it's free of four seconds. If you don't grab somebody's attention in the first 10 seconds. It's gone. So how can you stand out and not become a wallpaper?
I think this is what, people who are applying for jobs need to ask themselves. And not be afraid to be brave, to be different, and to be curious.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Wow. Said. That's good advice. And it is true. And I'd like to reiterate that because there's so many [00:38:00] people who are, it's a competitive thing, but when you put a job up, there's so many applications, not all of them are relevant. And I always try to remind people that you got to grab people's attention.
Like you, you're really busy. You need to go through. 50 CVs. You need someone, no, you need something to pop, isn't it? It's read a study, and it's something like and I was speaking to someone last night about it, and it's sometimes, in an interview, it takes seven seconds for the person to think if they're going to hire someone or not, and then the rest of it is, Either continuing that or a smaller chance of changing their mind from no to yes, but it is usually that thing and I think it's the same thing with CVs.
I think there's seven seconds to grab someone's attention before then Greta, you give them another seven seconds and another seven seconds. You know in seven seconds and it's just about, is the person relevant? So first of all, it's more Oh, okay. Someone's not even read it. You're out. But then it's that layers and layers, isn't it?
And that's the challenge, right? And it's
Greta Kriovaite: It's the same for [00:39:00] recruiters. If I get a message from a recruiter offering me a position that's way off what I do now Come
Stephen Drew: on now.
Greta Kriovaite: on, it's
Stephen Drew: Yeah, come on.
Greta Kriovaite: the same. Like we, we also need to surprise our clients. Like we also need to. We need to stand out. We need to be different. And this is, when we start a project, when it's a pitch, when we need to win work what can we do differently?
There's so many design firms in London. There's massive competition. How can we win this job? How can we approach it differently? What extra can we do? Personality wise, content wise, storytelling, etc. Otherwise, and especially with Chachabiti, right? It's very generic. A lot of the some writing, storytelling can become a little bit repetitive, and Lack life and lack character.
Don't you agree?
Stephen Drew: I, I, yeah, no I [00:40:00] agree on that. It's, and I think it's like everything in life. Actually. You talked about it earlier, a tool and all this stuff. If you spend hours developing this script for ChatGPT, which is tailored upon you and your hours, you can get some great results and it can be good. But it's the time you spent before, isn't it?
But if you just whirl it up and you put something Oh, it's not gonna be right. Sometimes I use it for marketing. I think it's really handy. Get ideas going, get things right. But if you just say, I don't know, put a title for this podcast, it will give all these bloody emojis and all this stuff. However, if you train the data on three years of the Architecture Social, and then train it on Woodalls and do all this stuff, It starts to get more convincing.
So I think there's time versus rewards. And I think it will get better, but it always relies on the conduit. Isn't it? Someone's always going to put the original idea. So I think therein lies, there's the designer, right? You're the designer, [00:41:00] director, producer. It's you, isn't it? The, all the best tools in the world rely on that initial thing.
Right?
Greta Kriovaite: Yeah. And it just goes back to being human. And English is not my mother tongue and I use Chacha PT a lot for, I've copied the email in, made grammatically correct.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Great.
Greta Kriovaite: But the more I do it, I'm like what? It's okay to make mistakes,
Stephen Drew: Yeah,
Greta Kriovaite: I wonder sometimes I write an email, they'll know it's not written by me, because, I would, for sure, I would have made a couple of grammar mistakes, because because, it's not my mother tongue, it's okay to do that it's like, trying to get rid of your accent, it's, but this is this is who I am Lithuanian it's okay not to have a British accent, I should just embrace it more.
And just be okay with it,
Stephen Drew: yeah you touched upon this earlier because we talked about, I like the things that aren't perfect. We were giggling about getting the tech going and I think, especially architects [00:42:00] and designers, especially in uni, like I work with people who don't finish the project because the first four pages are perfect and the rest don't bloody exist.
And I think that we are, we over, we talked about the glass boxes, it's like over sterile, no character. And I think that, when you do all this stuff, you can lose the personality, which is a shame. There was this person I worked with years ago, and he had awful grammar. And I remember he would do mailers out.
And I thought, oh, gosh, it's a bit embarrassing, but it was interesting because his replies back was quite high.
Gosh, and I think it was something in that of it. Actually, it's a human. Oh, my gosh, this person can't spell for whatever, but they're real. And on that theme. I think what will happen with the AI and the computers is it will continue to evolve so much.
However, I think there will be this [00:43:00] need or I think there will be this desire for realness. So you'll get the anti AI.
Greta Kriovaite: You are so right.
Stephen Drew: it's because, yeah, no, it's, you get, ma, you can get music now by ai, but people will want real people. Sorry, you're gonna say
Greta Kriovaite: It's, we've completely drifted away from workplace design, but we've got into a really deep philosophical AI. But you said people are after realness. What people are also really interested is in. Each are the weaknesses. Do you know Noah Harari? He wrote the book, The Brief History of Sapiens.
Stephen Drew: No, I've seen it online, but I should check it. Yeah,
Greta Kriovaite: definitely know it. He wrote a new book, Nexus something. And basically, I listened to a podcast with him and he said, know that we'll have robots who can run much faster than humans, but we're not going to be going to a race to see [00:44:00] Robots running. It's because we want to see humans because we're interested in the weaknesses that humans have.
That's the realness. We know like the, we know that, for example, a priest, it would be so easily replaced by a robot. It would be like the first profession that you could replace because it's just like standing there like da. You just, you say the. A couple of paragraphs and it's done, but you don't even think that could be an option because you want the realness, The person, the warmth, the connection, the humanity of it.
It's so scary because as humans, we can't be, we can't be, we can't start disconnecting from each other. We can't stop meeting in real spaces with real people. Funny I say that now that we're recording remotely. But, we can't lose that touch with our different tribes of neighbors, office tribes, our families, and.
Etc. We need to [00:45:00] stay human
There was that really funny post. I don't know if you've seen it on LinkedIn about, I want AI to help me with my laundry and cleaning and doing the dishes and not doing my job. No, it was something like, I don't want AI stealing my stealing our jobs. I want AI to help me with my laundry the dishes and etc.
My housework. It's but when is that robot coming out, for 20 k that we could just purchase? Who could, do the hoovering and all the washing of the dishes,
Stephen Drew: yeah, it's well,
Greta Kriovaite: we need.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, in one way, yes, we have gone off piece. But in another way, I don't think we have because it's the big thing that's coming through. And it does feed into even offices feeds into design feeds into the profession. But you know what, saying all that, I'm still Cautiously excited about it rather than apprehensive.
That's what I say. I think there's a lot of positives and it can, I think you can start even bringing time back. Like [00:46:00] the last point I'll say in it, I remember when I was a part one, yeah, I spent ages Photoshopping in people and all this stuff into the scene for my director and it was cool.
And they were like, oh, and in the end, who nice was they take me two weeks now. Boom. Done. And you could argue oh, that means the role of a part one's gone, but I disagree. It means the part where we'll be doing other things, we'll be doing a bit of that, AI will be helping them and on to other stuff, going to the meetings, going to stuff.
So I don't think it's a replacer. I think it could be an enabler. That's what I was going to say.
Greta Kriovaite: I think we need to embrace the change and yeah. Really embrace it. Embrace it. The same thing we saw happening with Industrial Revolution only. Now it's happening at a much faster speed and there will be different professions created to help with ai. There'll be more opportunities, but it means that we'll, as humans we'll need to be a lot more adaptable and flexible because we might need to [00:47:00] reprogram how we think and relea relearn the things that we've already learned because.
What's the scariest thing about AI is the speed, because it's just happening all so quickly, and how quickly are we going to be able to adapt to it? We're not sure. We don't know yet, but hopefully we'll find a way. Hopefully we'll find a way.
Stephen Drew: I think we will last question from me and then you can ask me a question and you can be a singer on the spot. And so I always like to see what people ask. Sometimes they're nice. Sometimes I say it's a challenge. I like a challenge. Last question was, we're talking about the future more into AI.
However, the time of recording is the 18th of October 2024, right? Labor's just coming into the UK. I just wanted to get your sense on the market sentiment. You talked about maybe people returning to work. How do you feel about it at the moment? Is there Opportunities. Are you feeling positive about the market compared to like when we were [00:48:00] talking about me and you were both looking for jobs years ago and there was nothing around.
Do you feel positive?
Greta Kriovaite: Yeah, very positive. Just going back to what I mentioned before, like how much construction is planned for London in the next decade, 15 years. Honestly, when I'm passing by Liverpool Street, I'm like, where are those towers gonna sit? That's there's no space.
Stephen Drew: I know.
Greta Kriovaite: they going? Where are they going?
So, there's, the market is busy. We're looking for people. I know a lot of our competitors friends in different companies are looking for people, looking for talent. I think the market is much better, much more, just busy. Busy is the word.
Stephen Drew: Yeah,
Greta Kriovaite: I don't know. What do you think? What do you think?
Stephen Drew: Yeah. It's really busy. So on the recruitment side of the architecture social, we have some clients which are extremely busy. There are some companies though that have made the news for redundancies. The ISG was the big recent [00:49:00] one. It's a shop for some and there are one or two architecture practices that there are redundancies happening and I think that sometimes you hear that and you think oh my gosh it's all bad but equally I've had one client that's asked us to find six architects and six part twos so I really think it's about the sector, the strength of the company, their position, who they know.
So I agree with you, I think it's okay and if there are any listeners out there that might think oh I hear this in the news. Don't worry. It's a bit like, I think it's very quick for a tabloid to go. We're making redundancies, but actually there's a lot of busy stuff going on,
Greta Kriovaite: Yeah. And talking about new jobs reappearing in terms of sustainability, like, all the different accreditations is coming out now. We need more experts within the sustainability. 10 years ago, it was a bit, oh, sustainability. Now it's like Head of Sustainability Experts, Briam, Experts, and so on.
And also, I can [00:50:00] see a lot more opportunities for BIM. BIM is another one, right? And also like tech savvy, 3D 3D experience, digital transformation jobs as well because of the AI. I feel like there's more job roles being already created because of the tech. And it goes back again to being curious embracing the change, flexing, adapting. So I think it's all good. It's
Stephen Drew: I think it's good I think it's a pretty good time. Good time to be alive. Interesting stuff happening.
Greta Kriovaite: time to be alive.
Stephen Drew: I think so. I like it I'm like what the heck's gonna happen next in a good way So before we go, I always think because I'm asking the questions just flip it around Do you have any questions for me, Grant?
It could be about anything
Greta Kriovaite: like I've asked a lot of questions though.
Stephen Drew: Yeah a few, but, maybe a direct one or, yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm laughing because I'm trying to get rid of saying absolutely. And [00:51:00] now I just said it three times.
Stephen Drew: It's a be it's a good one. You could have Amazon s or the is the one that it's zips up everywhere, so Absolutely. It's
Greta Kriovaite: English is not my mother tongue that's my excuse anyway. What, a bit of a boring one, but I think it's still quite interesting and relevant. Would you have still chosen the career path of architecture if you could make that decision again now?
Stephen Drew: It's, yes. It's strange 'cause I don't practice architecture anymore. I had, I did it for a few years, but I still love the profession. I still think the way. All the stuff you learn in architecture, and this is what I want to say to people, because architecture, yes, of course, or interior design, or basically built environment, it's a, where it's special, is it is like a vocation.
Okay, we know it's not the most high paid job in the world. If you're doing the Tesla robots, you're going to be on a few more pennies than this. However, if you really [00:52:00] enjoy it. You get to build buildings, you get to change people's lives. It's like very, you build hospitals and schools for kids. And as you mentioned, offices where people are in all bloody day.
And I think it's extremely special also though, cause for me, I didn't quite have the bug. of the projects. I didn't get the bug out in the technical details. I just didn't have the thing, okay. And I think for those people that have that, architecture is still a really cool profession. The way I run the business basically reminds me of the UNIT remap it was called at Manchester School of Architecture.
Very data driven, very looking at things, very analytical, and you can learn a lot from that. Business and so you can learn a lot from architecture, which can be applied to business and also crits. They're pitches. It's sales. The only thing that I think is strange in [00:53:00] architecture that we do is we worry, we think money, ooh, crass subject, and we go, oh, sales ooh, that's crude.
But no, it's important. Pitching for work. You want to talk about winning for work. That's sales. And it's important to talk about money because the better you do, the better budgets you get, the better the project's going to be, the better the working conditions are going to be. It's all really important.
So that's my thing is that I think it's okay to say, I'm not sure if I want to be an architect, but maybe I want to, as you said, Be a BIM specialist. Maybe I want to do AI. Maybe you want to be a crazy kooky person like me and do something different. And you can still add a lot. You can still build. In an abstract sense.
So yes, I would definitely do it. And I do think it's a great skill. I just want to insert the caveat because some people message me and they go, Oh, I'm an architect, but my passion is really writing. Do it, great. There's no problem. Cause [00:54:00] that's the other thing is the course is quite varied.
And then I wasn't very good at the writing bit. Mine was always rubbish at that, but I used to be like, the tech, give me the tech. I love that, 3d. Gaming models. And now look what's happened. Revit's all on the fly. Quick. So who knows? So I still think it's a great profession. I would just think what the next generation of architects, interior designers are. You can experiment with it a little bit, or it could even work. The other thing is people go and they do other stuff. Then they become project managers, become developers. It's all cool. So yeah, I think if hopefully I answered it, but I still think it's a great, it's a great. Profession and a great thing to study.
Greta Kriovaite: No, I love your answer and I think if you haven't started with architecture, you wouldn't be where you are now. And, with the things that you do now, and I love how you promote the students online on LinkedIn. I think [00:55:00] that's really nice, that a touch of kind of supporting the younger generations and giving that exposure, the spotlight.
And appreciating the, the work of the younger generations. What is it? Alpha B? No, still Gen Z, still Gen Z.
Stephen Drew: don't even know what gen I am. Gen something or other. Gen
Greta Kriovaite: When I, that, do you know that quote that I wanted to find at the beginning? I think I'll just have the second question for you that might be a nice close
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: and see how you interpret it. So it goes like that. Life is always right. It is the architect that is wrong.
Stephen Drew: Wow. I don't know. That sounds quite, that's quite a hardcore saying, isn't it? Life is right. Architects wrong. I wouldn't know how to take that. Architects wrong. What does that mean? That we're always learning? that what you feel? That's what I take from it. Or does nature run its course? [00:56:00] The architect's always wrong.
There's a few architects I know
Greta Kriovaite: life is right. I guess it's how we. I guess it's almost life shapes architecture and not architecture shapes lives.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I can see that. I always, that's a bit of a philosophical one. I need to really marinate over that. That's deep.
Greta Kriovaite: Not good for a hangover mind, is it?
Stephen Drew: whoa, he just flipped me wide open. It's going to, it's going to go to my soul. I'm going to be in the kitchen staring at a piece of toast and thinking, whoa, the architect's always wrong.
But what it reminds me of when you say that, and the last thing I'll say. Is I the when people say practice in architecture at first I was like architecture practice always but practice and it is really interesting way of saying because you never, it never stops does it like your next project you're always learning from one the other.
The next project doesn't mean it's better, but it's always that quest. And I think that [00:57:00] there's still that thing in business. To me, it's never done. And I like that. And I'm always learning. And I'm, what satisfies me is that if at the end of the day, if I do one thing, one tiny thing that I think is a net positive to me, I'm very satisfied.
Maybe I'm wrong, but the journey to get into right
Greta Kriovaite: no wrong or right
Stephen Drew: yeah.
Greta Kriovaite: wrong or right.
Stephen Drew: Wow. Wow. It went so deep. But listen, thank you so much. I think we've just hit the hour mark, which I think is always a nice place to end it now. Maybe we can return again. Maybe we can come back in a few years and we'll be like, Tesla robots are everywhere.
Me and you are looking for jobs again. It'll be 2012 all over again. Who knows, but
Greta Kriovaite: hope not. I hope not.
Stephen Drew: I don't think so. I think it would be actually really cool. And my laundry will be done on time and my partner will be off my case because I've got my
Greta Kriovaite: See, and we'll, and people will have more time to listen to longer podcasts because their dishes are being done by, Elon Musk's robot named [00:58:00] Zelda, right?
Stephen Drew: Why not? You can name your
Greta Kriovaite: not?
Stephen Drew: whatever you want. That's the perk of living in 2024, 2025. But Greta, you've been an absolute joy for the audience. If they want to find out about yourself, or as well, Woodolls. Where can they find you online?
Greta Kriovaite: You can find me on LinkedIn. You can find us on our website at Woodles. We can share some notes in the shows, I hope, but yeah, LinkedIn, I'm not on Instagram. I'm doing that, decided to do a detox digital thing and as an experience, I'm just ended with that. But Stephen, it's been such a pleasure.
Thank you for this really fun philosophical conversation. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for having me.
Stephen Drew: Oh, all right. The post has been all mine. Thank you, Greta. And I'm going to end the audio now. Thank you to the listeners. Really appreciate it. More content coming soon. I'll have to check what it is. I haven't got my robot to organize it, so I don't know, but [00:59:00] more interesting stuff coming.
Greta Kriovaite: Zelda! Okay.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Elon.
Greta Kriovaite: Thanks Stephen.
Stephen Drew: Bye bye.