Diversity in the Drafting Room: Hiring Disabled Employees for a More Successful Business

Diversity in the Drafting Room: Hiring Disabled Employees for a More Successful Business
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[00:00:00]

Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. It's Friday. Strap in. Are you down the pub? If you are, shouldn't be there should you. Don't worry, I'm not gonna tell the boss. Anyways. 30 seconds. The show goes on. Friday day, Pratt Sandwich having a bit special. Who knows? And if you're behind your desk, that's fine too. And if you're sober, brownie points 15 seconds. Hello everyone. Welcome to the Friday special. It's that time. We're almost at the weekend, just a few hours [00:01:00] more. Unfortunately for you. You have my company until we get there. But fortunately for you, I've got an awesome guest with me that I met a few weeks ago, and their story was so inspiring that I was like, you have to come on the podcast.

And after a few times asking, I'm lucky enough that Jane Hatton is joining us. Jane, how are you today? First of all, are you okay?

Jane Hatton: I'm very well, thank you. Yeah, the water torture definitely did the trick.

Stephen Drew: Now that's Sarcas and there was no water torture. But thank you for being here, Jane. Now, before we talk a little bit about your story and a little bit about what we're talking about today, can you first of all tell anyone that's not familiar with you and not met you before, who you are and currently a little bit about what you are up to.

Jane Hatton: Yeah, so I'm Jane Hatton and I founded a social enterprise about 12 years ago. I'm a disabled woman and I [00:02:00] live in London, and I'm very happy to talk to anybody about. Disability. It's my second favorite subject after my granddaughter, which is probably my first favorite subject.

Stephen Drew: Oh, brilliant. Fair play. You've granddaughter aside. We should, next time for the next episode, perhaps your granddaughter can join us on there,

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Perhaps next time you could say you look too young to be a grandmother.

Stephen Drew: That's true. I was thinking of it, your life is, you have to think the first thing that comes in the mind. Maybe that was the second thing I thought of. I thought, wow, it'd

Jane Hatton: Forgive.

Stephen Drew: to get her on. Yeah. You, so the second favorite thing apart from your granddaughter is disability.

Now, even the word disability. I think it's a word that some people are like, oh, should I say that? Should I not say that? What does it mean in terms of looking for a job? Or what does it mean in terms of hiring? Now the thing is strange, so I'm from the Architecture industry before, and a lot of this audience is I've studied to become an [00:03:00] Architect, or they're running or working in an Architecture practice, and it tends to be a very hands-on job.

So before the pandemic, it was very much a case. That people were coming in nine to five. It's a very physical job. Sometimes you're going out to see a building site, but a lot of the time you're behind a computer screen as well. So can you first of all, expand upon what you currently doing and then why you're so passionate about disability in the profession.

Jane Hatton: Yeah, I think it's interesting that people tend to think about disability as, oh, it's gonna be someone in a wheelchair, so they can't go out on site, or they're gonna be blind, or they're gonna be, and actually disability. So broad, and most of us who are disabled. So I have chronic pain through a spinal condition, but I don't think I look disabled.

And in fact, 80 to 90% of disabled people don't look disabled. So only, I don't know, 5% of disabled people use wheelchairs. So if you [00:04:00] hear architects saying we couldn't en employ a disabled person because they wouldn't be able to get out on a building site or whatever it might be.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jane Hatton: only 5% of disabled people.

Somebody, for example, with autism typically, and everybody with autism is very different, but typically are really good at detail and also are really creative. Now, those are two traits I would think are pretty important in the Architectural industry. I could be wrong, it's not an industry I'm familiar with, but.

I would've thought that would be quite important. And yeah, what we battle with at even break is people's perception of disability and that they tend to see, employers particularly tend to see disabled people as risks to hire. So we're gonna be expensive because we're going to need adaptations, or we're not going to be very productive, or we're going to be off sick all the time, or We're health and safety hazards, all of that.

Whereas actually at even break, we are a job [00:05:00] board for disabled candidates and in inclusive employers we call our candidates premium candidates because actually disabled people are just as productive as this is. All the research that's been done, I've actually written a book about it. Which I can talk about if you want.

It's not very academic. It's called a dozen Brilliant Reasons to Employ disabled people, but it's nothing to do with charity or pity or even CSR and everything to do with talent. So we're talking about people who are productive, who have less time off sick than non-disabled people may surprisingly, who are fewer workplace accidents.

But I think more importantly, whe when we talk about disability, we're talking about People who face barriers. So we talk about the social model of disability. People who aren't disabled by whatever their condition might be, but by the fact that the world just isn't geared up for disabled people. And so in Architecture, for instance, that's crucially important.

How do we. How do we [00:06:00] design buildings, whether they're residential or public buildings or businesses that are accessible for disabled people. So if you've got disabled people working for you, you've got that internal intelligence about accessibility and what people need. But also because we have to navigate around these barriers, and it might be physical.

Built environment barriers, but it might be inaccessible websites, inaccessible transport the views of attitudes, of employers about disabled people. We actually develop a whole range of skills, which might be problem solving or determination or creative thinking to get round all of these barriers and that makes us premium candidates.

So really, I think for me, the important thing is to change the narrative around disability. It's not icky. It's not yucky. It's not about pity. It's not about, oh, poor things. They need a job. It's about, oh my God, look at all that talent. And that's really where even breaks started because.

[00:07:00] Disabled people couldn't find employers who wanted to employ them. And those few employers who did want to employ them couldn't find disabled talents. So actually the job board even break brings those two things together. Sorry, that was a very long answer to a very short question.

Stephen Drew: No, I love it. It's it's fair. I think you covered a lot of ground and there's a few things I picked up on which really do resonate cuz you are right. I think that a lot. A surprising amount of architects are actually dyslexic

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: like you said, there's spatial awareness of certain qualities really lend to the profession.

But as you said, I find that blanket term of disability, you are right. People do hone in on immediately a wheelchair user. I dunno why it is, but even I, if you put, if I close my eyes, it's one of the first things that.

Jane Hatton: course.

Stephen Drew: of, but actually, like you said, the other thing that is interesting, you're right, architects are trained and do care a lot about the physical environment and.

Building [00:08:00] requirements on how people can access a building is something that we think about a lot, but Yeah. experience though, Jane, in terms of the actual business itself, sometimes it can actually be an afterthought. And I think that a lot of our Architectural employers, I have a lot of good intentions, but because they're running with a ball on their projects when it comes to hiring, then the May, maybe there's a little mini freakout of, oh, we don't know what to do there.

We don't, we are not equipped to have a disabled person working for us. And then, like you said, Jane, in a, especially like last year when there's not enough architects in the industry, missing out on people. What's the kind of first step that you would say to an Architecture practice, which is maybe listening to this and I thought, oh, wow, there's a good idea there, but I wouldn't know where to begin.

Have you started decrypting that formula, Jane, and opening things up then?

Jane Hatton: Yeah, I think the starting point is just thinking about disability [00:09:00] differently. So a, it might be people in wheelchairs but it might, it, it very well might not, and it's about thinking about talent. So as you say, in the Architectural world, just as in pretty much every other sector, There are massive skill shortages.

People are really struggling to attract talent and disabled people make up 20% of the population. So that's the fifth of the talent out there. If we are gonna ignore disabled people for whatever reason, that's the fifth of the talent that we're ignoring. I think the other thing, you're absolutely right, Stephen, these people are frightened of disability, not necessarily because they want to discriminate, but because.

They are worried about using the wrong word. They're worried about offending somebody. They're worried about coming over as patronizing. They just don't know what to do in terms of supporting people. And actually it's so much simpler than it seems because every disabled person, like every non-disabled person, it's completely different.

So you could have 20 autistic art architects. That need 20 [00:10:00] different ways of working because everybody's different. So instead of employers having to be experts on everything to do with disability and every condition and every bit of assistive technology that exists, you don't need to know any of that.

All you need to be able to do is to say to people, what do you need us to do for you to thrive here? And that candidate will tell you, oh, actually I need a bigger monitor. Or I need X, or I need flexible working, or I need, it's usually something fairly simple. So it's just about having that conversation and not trying to be the expert or assuming what somebody might need.

And the second thing is, if you are open to this talent, Don't assume that disabled people will apply just because you want them, because we have a history of being discriminated against. I say we, everybody at even break is disabled. So we know that for many employers. The minute we let them know that we are disabled, either they can see that we are, or we mention it.

That's the point at which we become rejected. [00:11:00]

Stephen Drew: Mm.

Jane Hatton: And so disabled candidates tend to only apply for jobs with organizations that they know are open to their talent. And that doesn't happen by telepathy. We are disabled, we have lots of extra talents. Telepathy probably isn't one of them. And so we are gonna assume that unless you say otherwise, you're not gonna want our talent.

So for any organization that's looking to. Access this, tremendous pool of talent. They need to make it really explicit that they're inclusive, that they're open to different ways of working. And that might be on their website, it might be on their adverts, but it also might be where they advertise.

And quick plug, obviously for even break, which is a specialist disability job board. Our candidates will say to us, if we can see that an organization is paying to advertise their jobs, On a job board that's just for disabled people. That's a really powerful demonstration of their commitment and it's worth us applying and it's worth us talking about any access needs we [00:12:00] might have because we know they're serious about us.

So one way to be seen as being ahead of the crowd and without wishing to be rude. And maybe I am being a bit rude in the Architectural world, it's a relatively low bar. It's gonna be quite easy to be a leader in this field, in, in being an inclusive employer. Being seen in somewhere like even break is just gonna put you ahead of the game

Stephen Drew: I agree. And so I brought up the website and I think in particular we'll touch upon the career hive as well, which I think is really interesting. And there's a few things there though Jane as well, because as in this online space, like the modern business cards of the world are websites, right?

And when people are looking for jobs, you're correct that actually. There's many facets, like even how accessible the website is,

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: still got a lot of work to do on my website. I've got an accessibility widget though, where you can change the fonts, the sizes, dyslexic font tone compared to others and, the [00:13:00] bar.

And I think it's good to have that,

Jane Hatton: Yeah, it's a start. Yeah

Stephen Drew: it's the start, but there's this whole system of getting accredited and all these things. So I love the fact that you've got this resource here and we then we, let's dive into that in a little bit. But why? I also wanted to say though, for there might, maybe there's a few Architectural practices which are listening to this and they can get a few tips, but equally, Maybe there's a few people looking for jobs within Architecture at the moment who are seeking for a job.

So they're what's called a candidate in the recruitment world, or a job seeker. And we were talking about that earlier where job seeker I wasn't aware of, has some connotations as well, so it's what I was, where I'm going with all this though, is. For anyone that perhaps has a disability and has felt up until now disadvantaged in looking for a job, is there any advice that you'd start giving them as well?

Jane Hatton: Yeah, for sure. This came up quite a lot. We were getting candidates [00:14:00] coming to us and saying, I. I've got gaps in my CV. Can you have a look at it? Or I'm not very good at interviews. Can you support me? And we used to signpost them to other career support organizations, and they'd come back and they'd say, yeah, but unfortunately, in order to be eligible for that support, I've got to be in this particular postcode, or I've got to be on this particular benefit.

Or I've got to be, I'm too disabled. Or I'm not disabled enough. Or even if I can access the the support, it doesn't take into account the additional barriers that disabled candidates face, for example. So eventually we decided to set up our own career support service, and it's called The Hive. And you've got it there up now, and what we offer.

Is a number of different things. It's all online, but the, there is a directory so that if someone lives in Brighton and they're blind, they can go and have a look and put their postcode in and see if there are any local organizations that they might want to go to. We discovered there wasn't such a directory.

We went to places like Citizens Advice and is there a directory somewhere of all the. [00:15:00] No. So we've created our own and it's still growing. We also have online resources. So it might be, I don't know, a recorded webinar about how to ask for adjustments or how to mention disability positively when you're talking to a potential employer.

We have the jobs board, obviously, which is linked from there, and we put on some events, but importantly we have career coaches. So they're career professionals who have lived experience of disability themselves. Everybody who works with even break is a disabled person. And so they have lived experience of the barriers that disabled people face, but they're also career coaches so they can.

Help candidates with, people, disabled people who are looking for new or better work with whatever that person needs. So often it's, you have to go on this one year program. I don't want to go on a one year program. I just want someone to look CV. So it's very much about what do you need as a candidate?

And it's delivered in a way. That's accessible. So if you need a sign language interpreter, there'll be one. If you need captions, there'll be [00:16:00] captions. It can be done on zoom or teams or whatever, or it can be done over the phone or it can be done by WhatsApp. So it's very flexible and it's very much built around the candidate themselves.

And really, I think the main thing we do, if I'm honest, is to also reassure disabled people. That they are premium candidates because when you've constantly been rejected and you know that a lot of the time it's because you're disabled. Your self-confidence takes a battering and you just feel I'm probably not good enough to do these jobs, then Yes you are.

It's just that the society tells us that disabled people are no good. So really the career hive is about building that back up and saying, no, you've got the same diversity of skills and qualities as everybody else. But you've also got those additional skills that you've developed in, in, navigating around this world that isn't built for us.

So it's very much about confidence building as well.

Stephen Drew: Very cool. I this is it and I think part of it as well is collaboration. And so while we had a conversation before, I didn't necessarily [00:17:00] know everything about your business until we had we spoke and that's why I thought it would be good to have you here as well because there ain't no sponsored content on the social.

What I like though is what you are doing is something that I am trying to do more as part of my business. But it's a collaborative effort

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: and it's a joint thing. And also equally, I love the resources that you've got and I think that it's great that people can plug into it and you are right.

I think reassurance is a big thing. I can, and when I was doing a bit of career coaching myself, Jane, in Architecture, a lot of the conversations would come around salary, but

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: remaining bit, which wasn't about salary. Would be about confidence or speaking with employers and the other snag that always came up.

When looking for a job would be flexibility around a family or a disability or a member of family with a [00:18:00] disability.

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Or, and that was the main part as well as the salary. And I think that what I was picking up on the lot is that people were worried about. Mentioning it in the while, while they were looking for a job and so I always used to encourage people.

I say, listen, I haven't necessarily got that disability. I've a lot of hard knocks in life, but my view is that you should embrace that in the job search. It's, and also it's a bit like an employment visa. They're not the same thing, but where in, in the job process they can be similar is that I think people worry that if they don't, men if they mention it, they're not gonna ca be carried further.

So

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: people do not mention their disabilities. People do not mention their employment to work and visa requirements. And then that comes out at the end of the posis. And then the Architecture practice is shocked.

Jane Hatton: Yes.

Stephen Drew: freaks everyone out in the process. And my view is that if you have something which could be perceived as potentially holding you back, if you [00:19:00] mention that at the front and you embrace it, then everyone is in the know.

At the start. You are not wasting your time as a, as someone looking for a job, and then the employer knows. What you know is, should be a part of that interview conversation. And if they, if then they're not open-minded enough to see the potential you have kind of sod them a bit,

Jane Hatton: it's almost a way of filtering employers out, isn't it? I think that's the thing. If you are going to get a bad reaction from an employer, you may as well know that at the beginning of the process. Then you haven't gotta waste your time with the rest of it. But the other thing you mentioned there, Stephen is crucial, which is about flexible working.

Stephen Drew: Mm.

Jane Hatton: And it's not just disabled people that, sometimes want flexible working, but I think, the world changed during the pandemic and obviously in a lot of ways for the worse. It was a tragedy and it was a disaster. But I think this, one of the silver linings that came out of it was that we recognized the world of work, recognized that we don't have to [00:20:00] work in the very rigid, prescriptive ways that we worked previously.

Turning up at nine in the morning, going home at five at night, in the office, five days a week. When you think about it, it's ridiculous that I live in central London and the tubes are like sardine tins, for two hours in the morning, and again for two hours in the evening. Whereas actually I'm much happy using the tubes at different times of the day when they're not full and it can spread out.

You haven't got somebody's armpit up your nose and whatever it might be. And I think that a lot of, certainly a lot of the employers that we are working with across all sorts of sectors are now offering flexible working. Whether that's starting at different times, finishing at different times, whether it's working from home one or more days a week.

Whether it's not working necessarily 37 hours, it might be having two people job sharing. That whole flexibility thing. And what we've noticed is that those employers who are going back to, oh no, the pandemic's over now, we want you to be back nine to five, Monday to Friday in the office, are really struggling to find the best talent because the best [00:21:00] talent can afford to be choosy in these times, school shortages.

And they will, as you say, it's one of their concerns. They will choose to work for an employer. That values them as people and will be accommodating. So whether it's someone who's disabled, let's say it's someone who's autistic and really struggles with that rush hour public transport bit, or it's someone who has to pick the kids up at three.

Or whether it's somebody like me who's not really a morning person, I'm more of an afternoon person. It's not just about disability, it's about people, isn't it?

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jane Hatton: think those Architectural practices that have thinking the best way to go is, let's go back to where we were before. It's gonna be nine to five, Monday to Friday, in the office are going to struggle to get the best talent.

They're probably gonna get the talent that can't get jobs anywhere else. And who wants that?

Stephen Drew: Exactly. Exactly. And that's happened with a practice that obviously, I won't say they named here, but basically they asked all the staff to come back five days a week. And guess what? Suddenly people from this company are ringing me [00:22:00] up more, Jane, because

Jane Hatton: A job somewhere else.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, they wanna go somewhere else.

And I agree. The pandemic was awful in terms of, people died. It was awful. What one of the mag things though, about the pandemic? I think it rev, it sped up flexible working in the Architecture sector like 10 to 20 years. And it's interesting because while we are talking about disability I think that in an abstract sense in recruitment, you could call it the disadvantage box.

Okay. And I think having a right to work or a Visa requirement, felt like it put them at a disadvantage. Or sometimes employers were like, oh, that's, that's a bit too much disability goes into the disadvantage box. Oh, we're not sure how we're equipped

Jane Hatton: Too much luck, hard work.

Stephen Drew: Bear, bear, we don't touch it. But bizarrely, like you said, mad things are in the disadvantaged box. Like before was like a mother who's got kids who wants to return to work. Oh, we can't be doing that. We can't, we need someone and there's nine to five. And I think that all over the years, these [00:23:00] things, by being like.

looked at or accepted on being not dealt with in 2023, puts the, not it. It's no longer puts the job seeker or the candidate or the designer who's looking for a job at a disadvantage. What it puts is the employer who is basically now, like you said, has less people to

Jane Hatton: Yeah, sure.

Stephen Drew: for a job and they're freaking

Jane Hatton: it makes no sense because we've proved, that was a huge unwanted social experiment. And I think before then, disabled people have often been working from home as a reasonable adjustment. At even break, we started in 2011 long before the pandemic, and we've always worked flexibly from home and it works, perfectly well.

But we know that there were managers, before the pandemic that would think, oh, if we let them work from home, they'll be watching daytime telly, they'll be going and playing golf. And the concern was that people's productivity would go down. Yeah, but actually what a lot of the employers that we talked to found [00:24:00] was that it was the opposite.

It was almost how do you protect people who are working from home, from working too long? Cuz there isn't that kind of cutoff point at the beginning and end of the day, and I find myself sometimes saying to our staff, and I can see they're still online, it's seven o'clock. Turn the computer off, watch some rubbish on the television, go out with your mate, whatever it might be.

And I think, the danger is that people who work from home can be overproductive. They forget to stop and have breaks. They forget to hydrate themselves properly. And actually, I. The challenge of having people working from home isn't, are they working hard enough? It's are they working too hard and or, are they looking after themselves?

So all of those stereotypes that we had before the pandemic we've proved aren't the case. And so there's no justification now for saying, everybody must be in the office nine to five. There may be things that you need to be present for, if you go to visit a site or you have a an in-person meeting with someone, then fine.

But it, I don't think that every job has to be done 40 hours a week in the office, nine to five, Monday to Friday. I just, I [00:25:00] can't see the justification for it. And as I say, it's not just around disability, it's around people generally living their lives.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, said. I, and listen I completely agree with you. I think the businesses that embrace this will have more people. More talented people, and that should be the overriding factor above this is who is the best person for the business? Who can I, who would I like to work with?

Who's gonna be the most productive regardless of disability or whatever,

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: hopefully we'll get them. You touched upon a few I ideas earlier, that company should look for. And start embracing. And you mentioned also you wrote a book. Now obviously if someone wants to get the full range of your experience in forts, they should check out the book.

But can you give us one or two little insights of what you learned perhaps while you were writing this book and what? Would surprise you, which people have found. Wow. I never knew that before, but [00:26:00] actually Jane, that is an interesting point.

Jane Hatton: Yeah. Yeah. There's all sorts of things. I actually wrote two books. One was about the why you should. Employed disabled people, which is all about business and talent are not about p pity. And the second one is all about the recruitment process from vacancy arising to onboarding and everything in the middle and and the barriers that some people might find.

And I think one of the, Maybe not quite so surprising things, but one of the things that we found was the more accessible you make your workplace, your work design, your recruitment process, your flexible working for disabled people, the better it is for everybody. It's not one of those, oh, we give it to them and everybody else misses out.

If we remove barriers from the recruitment process for disabled candidates, we remove barriers for everybody. And one of the things that that perhaps is interesting is that, not everybody is brilliant at being interviewed. And we tend to use interviews, don't we as a way of recruiting people.

And so traditionally what [00:27:00] happens is that we end up recruiting the person who is the best at being interviewed. So they're the very articulate person, the confident person, the one that comes in the room, and she shakes your hand and looks you in the eyes, and you ask them a question and they come back with a very slick, concise, answer that you're looking for.

And that person is gonna get the job. Whereas you might have somebody else who sidles into the room and shuffles a bit and sits on and looks at the floor and fidgets a bit and maybe stumbles over the words, that person isn't gonna get the job. But actually it depends on what job you are trying to get, if you need an absolutely brilliant designer, Do they need to have amazing interpersonal skills or do they need to be really creative when it comes to looking at design?

So are, interviews always the best way of assessing somebody's suitability for a job. You end up employing the person who's the best at talking about how good they are, rather than the actual best person for the job. And I'm thinking, I. Particularly about, we mentioned autism earlier, and a lot of autistic people would be brilliant as [00:28:00] architects because they have that double real kind of focus on detail, but also that real creative, we employ a number of neurodiverse people and sometimes we'll be having a team meeting.

About a problem or a service or whatever it might be, and one of our team will come up with an idea that immediately you think, nah, that's ridiculous. Then you think about it a bit more and you think, no, it's not. It's genius and it's an idea that me is a neurotypical. Would never have come up within a million years.

And actually in Architecture, that's what you want people who are gonna come up with innovative ideas that most of the population just would never think of, but that actually work.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jane Hatton: and so for me it's about how do you. How do you find those people? A, you need to attract them so you advertise on even break, but also you need to assess them in ways that are gonna work for them.

So show us work that you've done before. Give them a task to do, if it's data analysis or whatever it might be, give them a [00:29:00] task to do and they can show you how good they are at that job, rather than saying to them, How good are you at doing this job? They're gonna co, everybody's gonna say, oh, I'm really good at it.

But autistic people tend not to be great at selling themselves, even though they might be by far the very best candidate. So it's about looking at your recruitment process, how it works, who it might disadvantage if there are, not everybody's an extrovert. Introverts typically aren't very good at interviews, but you might have lots of introvert, amazing designers out there.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jane Hatton: So it is about looking at how you attract candidates and then about how you assess them, and then of course how you retain them. So that's to do with the flexibility in the workplace environment and all of that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, said. It's while you were talking about interviews, the other interesting thing in Architecture that there's cvs which are very visual compared to other professions and portfolios. And the other bit that I see a lot, Jane, is that. Sometimes the [00:30:00] CV doesn't necessarily reflect the characteristics of the person yet in Architecture, rightly or wrongly.

And there's a big debate about this cuz it is a visual profession and I

Jane Hatton: Of course. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: are outputted. But sometimes I'll meet someone who is like this amazing Architect who's very good at delivering variables, very good at going on site. And that CV, when I see it, I just know, oh no. Architecture practice that we've been talking about, where you want to put the CV across, they're almost gonna ignore

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: because it in, in Architecture, the CV and the portfolio is the first hurdle.

Then

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: interviews, and sometimes I try and. My, my role as a recruiter in, if I'm in that process as a recruiter, sometimes I can try and say look past the CV. I've met them.

Jane Hatton: Yes.

Stephen Drew: like them, but

Jane Hatton: So much emphasis on the CV though, isn't there? It seems to be the, yeah, and I think, with disability, as [00:31:00] with any other kind of, protected characteristic to do with race or gender or

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jane Hatton: sexual orientation or whatever it might be. People are discriminated against that we know that. So if you are in one of those groups and you've been discriminated against in the workplace, your CV isn't going to look as impressive as somebody who hasn't been discriminated against.

And yet it has nothing to do with your brilliance or your ability to do the job and just to do with other people's bigotry really. So for me, I would think the portfolio is much more interesting and much more. Accurate than the actual CV itself, but even then, it may be that people haven't had the opportunity to do exciting work.

Not because they can't do exciting work, but because there's been oh, that person couldn't do it because they're whatever the, disability might be. So it is looking beyond the CV and looking beyond the interview and actually, testing people's ability to do the job. That seems to me to be a much more effective way of assessing [00:32:00] talent.

Cuz whitcraft a great CV. It doesn't have to be true

Stephen Drew: That's true. And it's very interesting. Cause one of the things I do when I talk here, especially about, for someone who's for a job, I always talk about the fact that, at the start of your career, you're probably gonna be sending more CVS out. You're gonna be rusty at interviews because you've never done them.

But one of the things I like people to think about is over time, it that if you create these networks, what are meaningful connections? Then our opportunities start coming to you. And it's very interesting, Jane, cuz I've actually started hiring people for my team at the moment. And a lot of them though that I'm meeting are from basically.

Meet as meeting them before, in, in events, having conversations or meaningful connections that I've had in the past where I've, there's no point me interviewing them because I know them. I've experienced them for hours and ends, or I've seen them at [00:33:00] a talk or I've seen them at a discussion.

And in Architecture, I always say to people if you get involved in groups, your passion. So for example, say now you are a scripting. Kids. That's amazing. And you've got all this talent and you meet fellow people in the industry who have that same passion for scripting. And it doesn't really matter, like you said, your, your sexual preference if you've got a disability or your arrangement, people know you for what you're good at, and

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: the job offer comes.

Have you seen some of that yourself, Jane, happen?

Jane Hatton: Yeah, for sure. For me, I'm a consummate networker. That's, I've all, it's one of the very few skills I do have and I've been using that for years. Often disabled people might not be as good at networking because it may be that the events are in inaccessible buildings or they just don't have those con contact.

But yeah, people by people don't they, that at the end of the day, and I think what I would say to any employer in any sector is you are looking for the best person for the job. You're not looking for the best interviewer or the best [00:34:00] CV you want, you know that's the kind of fairly poor to tool to get you the right candidate.

So it's really about looking at somebody's potential. Somebody's, you can't, we always talk about, recruiting for attitude and then training for skill. Because if you get the best person, but they're lazy or they're. They're careless. They make mistakes. You don't want them in your office.

So it's really about training for skills, but looking for potential, and if someone's really passionate about design or accessibility or whatever it might be, Then they might not have the best c CV, they might not be the best at interviewing, but they might well be the people that you want.

So yeah, and also talking to people that, going to events that might not be about Architecture, there might be about other things. And it's, those cross-fertilization bits and transferable skills as well. Yeah, I think networking is important, but we have to bear in mind again that, if you just.

Employee, your mates. They're likely to be people like you rather [00:35:00] than people who are different from you. And the last thing we want is an office of lots of people who are exactly the same. We need that diversity.

Stephen Drew: Correct. Yeah. And I think that even like the gender balance has been a big thing in Architecture. And I think though, and it's my opinion audience, but I think that it's generally well, Documented. Most people often joke about that Architecture used to be an old white male club, the old

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: club and it's come a long way.

It has come a long way. But there's still a lot more work to do, isn't it? There's always more work to do, but I think though that the barriers, if they were barriers, Of resistance to being more flexible and accessible to everyone. Post pandemic the lowest I think they've ever been. There's actually, it's quite, there's, it's quite easy to bring on, like you mentioned, an amazing member of the team who might have a specific requirement, which actually, if you think about it, is not a big deal.

And [00:36:00] I agree with you. I'd rather. Hire someone who's best for the job and okay, say now they have a specific disability. Then you just give them that little bit of kit or whatever.

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: What and about that little bit of flexibility. The other thing that I want to say just before we open up on it is that actually.

These members of staff tend to be with people a long period of time.

Jane Hatton: Yeah,

Stephen Drew: want to work with people who care about the company and appreciate what you've done for them, and equally then you can appreciate what they're gonna do for you. Rather

Jane Hatton: absolutely.

Stephen Drew: than, like you said, where the person who's hot on demand, and has a good opinion of themselves.

Maybe, they'll just go the next thing that comes

Jane Hatton: Yeah, they'll just go to the highest bidder all the time, weren't they? Was I think, one of the bits of research that I looked at when I wrote the first book was about retention and disabled people. We do tend to stay in our jobs longer. Now, it might be for the wrong reason. It might be that if we find an employer that.

Supports us and values us and our [00:37:00] career progression isn't hampered. We're gonna stay there. We're not gonna move anywhere. But what that does mean is that you do get that loyal. That loyalty. We tend to find an even break that people only leave if it's a r. There's a really good reason for it because they're looking for career progression elsewhere.

And for us, that's a success. If we've managed to give someone the confidence in the experience they need so they can progress their career somewhere else, that's fine. But we don't tend to get people who leave because, we don't make the right adjustments for them, or we don't appreciate them, or we don't value them, or we don't give them that flexibility.

And again, some other research talks about morale within organizations. And if you have an organization which values and supports its disabled employees, then the morale is higher amongst everybody within that organization, not just the disabled employees. And because the reality is that of all of the, things that we talk about, Disability is the only one that can happen at any point to any person.

It doesn't discriminate. You can be the richest person in the world and have a heart [00:38:00] attack, or you can be the richest person in the world and have a skiing accident or whatever it might be. It can happen to absolutely anybody at any time. People know if I can see that my employer is looking after that person over there, if anything happens to me, they're gonna look after me too.

And so you feel more loyal towards that employer and more productive and more willing to, go the extra mile.

Stephen Drew: That's a very good point cuz even me, I mean I've been lucky lately by about a year ago I had a bit of a house scare and it's amazing how the rug can get pulled from you very quickly and it's then the whole situation changes. And you're right. I run my own business was a little bit different.

But if I was working in a company, you do want to know that you're being taken care of because

Jane Hatton: Yeah, and also from the company's point of view if somebody that you value that you've been employing for a while becomes disabled or requires a long-term health condition, You want to be able to retain that talent within your organization, so if you're already geared up for it, then. That's fine. And actually 83% of [00:39:00] disabled people weren't born with their condition.

So only 17% of the disabled people that you know of were born with their condition. So when I look at our team, for example, we've got we're only small, there's only 20 of us, although we're the equivalent to about 40 of course, cuz we're disabled people. Two, two of our team members are blind, but both lost their sight as adults.

One was 16, one was 29, I think. And so we tend to look at disabled people and think, oh, they're those people over there. They were born with their conditions. No, it could be you tomorrow, it could be anybody. You know who,

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jane Hatton: yeah. Or you develop MS or whatever it is. You know that it happens to.

People generally. And and the older we get, the more likely it is to happen. And we're all retiring a bit later now, so we are going to have more and more disabled people in the workforce. And that's not a bad thing. That means that we've got all of these additional skills and talents and that the organizations become more flexible to accommodate that, which makes them better for everybody.

Stephen Drew: [00:40:00] Yeah, said. I what we'll do when we wrap up at the end is we'll talk again how people can find your resources and, I do think it's good for. Employers to know whether they can advertise and all that. But equally more, I think more important or more relevant in the Architecture industry is people with disabilities who feel a bit lost.

Cause this is a harsh industry for that. And we'll mention the hive again, but just before we do that at the end or when we get into that point, where we, so we covered the juicy nugget gets and all that stuff, but I like to throw the questions back the other way. Jane, do you have any questions maybe for me, in terms of the Architecture industry, my experiences for what I've seen, or anything that you'd like to ask me about the profession?

Jane Hatton: Yeah, what do you think might be the barriers for talented disabled people who want to enter the Architectural profession? What do you think the barriers might be for them?

Stephen Drew: I think the big problem right now is the CV N portfolio is the first protocol. And [00:41:00] then I think that employers need to have a unrealistic point of view. So we talked upon blind person. Now it would be quite hard, I think to do drawings perhaps as a blind person in an Architecture, as an Architect.

But what I would say to that equally is, in the company, not every needs to be doing this part of the role. And there's what's called in the industry is creative support. And I don't think it's necessarily. As vital for that kind of role. But you can holistically add such as, such a nice you can add, a great effect and actually understanding of the Architecture profession.

So now you become an Architect. Then like you said, you go by and you do a role within Architecture you still have all that amazing, relevant experience, but I think flexibility is the big problem still in this industry, Jane, and it's not the highest paid industry. It's amazing because you get to do build buildings and I think, like you said, you can do an amazing difference of people's life with accessibility, caring about that, [00:42:00] sustainable buildings.

It's all really interesting and important. But that also has to translate. In the companies and it's great for architects to be designing accessible buildings, but that doesn't mean then that they, should put up with a crappy office doing it. And then,

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I think architects have to love themselves a bit more.

And I think that though, architects, Jane, are a classic example of long hours. Drinking the coffee, not looking after their health. I've done it, in university last year there was a big report coming out about this culture where we could almost kill ourselves to get the output. But actually now in 2020 pre, everyone's looking at it thinking, I really want to do that anymore?

And

Jane Hatton: People aren't that protective, I don't think, are they? When you're absolutely shattered and you've been burning the candle at both ends, you're not gonna produce your best work because we're human beings and we need to rest, and we need to re, recharge our batteries.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And the other bit that's interesting is, so now there's an apprentice scheme, which I think is much [00:43:00] better and it's a little bit different, Jane, than the apprentice schemes in other industries. It's similar. But why I think that would be interesting is because years ago, Jane, when I was in the industry when I was studying Architecture, I was in university and there was a deaf student.

Who has wanted to learn Architecture and fair play a little bit to the university, that they had someone supporting him while he was

Jane Hatton: Yes.

Stephen Drew: but this disabled person dropped out and I understood why, because it's such a hard. Course and I wasn't convinced I getting information secondhand for someone interpreting it.

They would interpret it things a different way and I think it's sad, it's what makes me a bit sad about Architecture is I wonder how many people who have disabled because it's gone into study Architecture and should and dropped out over the five years cuz it's bloody tough. And I think that's the thing.

While we've been talking about the profession and employers, which is important. [00:44:00] how many people have dropped out at that point and that now this is a radical shakeup in terms of the academia, which is good, but how can we get potentially amazing architects in this industry where there's a shortage?

We need, they in this industry, we need the qualifications, but how are we supporting people like that part of it, Jane,

Jane Hatton: Yeah, for sure. And you could be losing women or men with families. Or who want families at that point as well. Because if people want families and they, they want to spend time with them, whichever gender they might be, realizing that these long hours aren't really gonna facilitate, that could well put them off as well.

So again, I think, I look at things from a disability perspective, but actually everything we talk about is relevant for other people as well. And yeah, you have to have people who are dedicated and committed and prepared to work hard, in, in the Architectural profession, as in many others.

But you need to make it possible for people to give of their best and to thrive and to flourish in that environment. And [00:45:00] nobody's going to thrive if they're permanently tired or they're being taken away from family or they're spending a lot of time traveling or whatever it might be. Whether they're disabled or not.

So I think it's how do you make the profession more attractive to people generally, as well as how do you make it more accessible and inclusive to all, it's just about good practice really, I think.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and I, the one thing I would say is that you know what it is, half of it's about looking forward, and I always think about. It's about the progression from here and it's a good place to be in. We made a lot of how do I say, progression, but there's a lot of work to do, but also with that, Jane comes an opportunity and I think that the companies that are more open-minded to all the stuff we're talking about.

In the long run, they will win because they will get amazing people, as you quite

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: say, who apply. But also what I would say, and this is where we can talk [00:46:00] about the hive again. Equally though, for anyone that is listening to this who has a recent disability or change in their life or circumstance, think we've all gotta start embracing what's happened and not see it as a problem.

Let's see

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: as an added value and bring it up at the start. Bring it up at the start so that you are not wasted your time. And that's the last thing I'll say before we open it up, Jane, is that. Job seeking in or looking for a job? I think it used to be a top-down thing. I like when I was a student, I was so grateful to have an interview when you were

Jane Hatton: Yes.

Stephen Drew: looking up like this. But actually it's a two-way conversation. Do I, you wanna work at the company? Are they the right people for you? And

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: have to remember that doesn't mean having an ego, but what that does mean though is that we. Both should treat each other as equals and see if this is the right opportunity for both.

It's not like going to the judge jury and getting nervous and, not

Jane Hatton: And [00:47:00] actually it has changed cause candidates can afford to be fussy. Now, there was a time when, please give me a job, I need a job. But now, because of the skill shortages, candidates can be fussy and they can choose which organizations they apply to or that they work at, and they can choose to move because there are opportunities elsewhere.

You're right, it's not just about the. Candidate trying to persuade an employer to employ them. It's also about the employer trying to say to that talent pool out there, you want to come and work for us cuz we're better than the competition.

Stephen Drew: Exactly. And so for anyone that's looking for a job out there, first of all Jay, what resources should they dip into in your website?

Jane Hatton: Yeah there's the job board itself of course, but where you can look for jobs, but also there's the hive, so it dep and it's completely open. It's free for anybody to use. Some people might just want to dip in and out, so they might want to have a look at the The resources that we've got or the directory that we've got.

Others might want, a bit [00:48:00] more intensive support and want to have some career coaching, and that's fine too. So it's a case of have a look, have a mooch, see what you think and, take what you want from it. It's all free of charge. There's never any obligation. We don't talk to, the people who hand out benefits or anything.

It's all confidential. And as you can see, we work with a very wide range of. Of sectors and different organizations. So yeah, people will be very welcome to come along to the Hive and also to search for jobs on the job board.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant, and so I'll bring up the website and for the audio listeners after is www dot even breakdown. Com and yes, lots of good clients say, damn dot, do it's dot co.uk. Don't go to the wrong website. Make sure you go to make sure you go to Jane's website. John Lewis, I used to work there and they were good employers, so I'm

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: that they're

Jane Hatton: They're one of ours. Yeah. In fact, they're, I think they're our most longstanding, I think they've been with us for 11 years,

Stephen Drew: Wow.

Jane Hatton: Yeah. We have some amazing [00:49:00] employers that work with us.

Stephen Drew: Let me say this. They were very good at looking after me, Jim, when I was there, but I was not the best employee in Waitrose. I was dropping the cheese rolls. I was doing this and that, but they were a good company and

Jane Hatton: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: good benefits and stuff as

Jane Hatton: Yes, they're good. And of course it's all done on a cooperative model, isn't it? That the employees are partners rather than just employees.

Stephen Drew: Exactly. So top tips there. Thank you so much Jane, and I'm gonna reiterate the website cause I got it wrong. It's www dot even break the code uk, which I think is amazing. Thank you so much for being here. I need to get the round of applause in. Appreciate it. Stay on the stage. One second, Jane.

Before we end it, but thank you for tuning in A little bit of a different conversation today, but very important. Whether you are hiring, these are good, some good things for you to think about, but equally, if you are currently looking for that next step in your career. just, you've had a change in life, you're looking for something more flexible, or you've got a [00:50:00] disability, whatever it is, check out those resources as well.

I will put a link on the Architecture Social. I think what Jane's doing is fantastic and I will be leaning in some lessons as well. I'll bring in some lessons as well. But if you want to find a port of authority in that space, I really do recommend Jane and none of this cons this content is sponsored.

It's because I like it and endorse it myself. So check it out. On that note, thank you so much. I'm gonna end the LiveRoom now. Jane, thank you once again and thank you for the audience. Have a great day and we'll see you all soon. Take care. Bye-bye now.