The Power of Involvement in Architectural Discourse, ft. Dolunay Dogahan

0043 - Dolunay Dogahan, Founder and Editor of Involved Magazine
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[00:00:00]

Introduction and Setting the Scene
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. I am Steven Drew from the architectural social, and I am here with doll and I from involved magazine, and I currently you're in a hotel somewhere. It looks really nice. I'm stuck. I'm. stuck here. I'm stuck here in London. I'm stranded. I just cancelled my Christmas train tickets home. I know my mum's not happy because all the presents are, she understands because of the R rating and stuff.

Stephen Drew: But where are you? First of all, where are you in the world?

Dolunay Dogahan: I'm in Cyprus at the moment. Just came back home for the holidays, but even though the hotel is, has a lovely sea view, which I've haven't seen in ages and I missed I've been locked up here. Literally. I can't leave, I can't leave the room, but I'm going out tonight, hopefully after my test results come out.

Dolunay Dogahan: So freedom.

Stephen Drew: Going out. Wow. That feels like a distant memory at the moment.

Dolunay Dogahan: Going out and not in the [00:01:00] British sense, going out of the room.

Stephen Drew: Absolutely.

Stephen Drew: This is it. Yeah. Yeah. No, no Mickey Flanagan. But so I guess with the, since you're in the hotel and you've got the lovely view, it gives you a lot of time to focus on something that you've set up.

Involved Magazine: Origins and Purpose
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Stephen Drew: And for anyone that's not familiar with it, you're, you set up Involved Magazine, which I really enjoyed being. I had an article there, which was really good fun. It was a little bit of a privilege. Thank

Dolunay Dogahan: you so much for the interview. That was lovely. I think a lot of our readers found it useful and informative.

Dolunay Dogahan: Oh, do you know what,

Stephen Drew: right? I never thought I would be in a magazine and for it to be a magazine set up by architectural students to me, it means a lot because I'm technically still a part two and I think that I never, there was no magazine. when I was a part two or part one, and it would have been nice to have it.

Stephen Drew: It would have been nice to have felt involved. Oh, there you go. That was a good little, that was natural. I'm going to count

Dolunay Dogahan: how many times we make involved puns.

Stephen Drew: Oh, I don't know. A

Dolunay Dogahan: lot of people [00:02:00] love making it, me included. Yes.

Stephen Drew: It's fun, isn't it? But for anyone that hasn't heard of or read the, that been on the website, hasn't seen the magazine, do you want to give us a little bit of a rundown about what it's about?

Dolunay Dogahan: So we are called Involt Magazine but we like to call ourselves a platform. And that is because we're a platform for young people, young designers architectural assistants, students to get their voice heard on. So we've provide this space where people from different backgrounds, different thoughts, they can write to us and they can be published on our website.

Dolunay Dogahan: And and then we also have a hard copy annual issue, which we publish. Once you're on a theme and they have different styles, the articles online is a bit, little bit more current and a little shorter by size. And then the annual issue is a little bit more design with, the paper weights being thought about for months and stuff as we'd like to, [00:03:00] but also going, delving into sort of deeper into the themes that we.

Dolunay Dogahan: Do, and it's all through open call. We don't know what's going to be in the next issue until we receive all the submissions, which keeps it quite exciting and we keep the theme quite broad. So that's who we are for now. But the reason why I also like to call it a platform is because, we do more than just.

Dolunay Dogahan: publishing, but we also do workshops to help people help architecture students gain confidence in writing and talking about the issues that they feel passionate about. And we joined talks and we would like to also. Expand on that, the world has its own plans and we don't know what the new year's coming.

Stephen Drew: Yeah it's definitely interesting.

Navigating the Architectural Industry
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Stephen Drew: And I tell you what, since setting up the Art Teacher Social, I it's been great to meet different people. And so I met Sana from I've met an architectural experiment and it was quite a pleasant surprise because we met, we had [00:04:00] messaged on LinkedIn and you're like, I'm with involved.

Stephen Drew: And I was like, okay, what's involved about it? And then when I found it, I was like, this again is so cool. There's all these like fragments of stuff out there. And what I quite like is that the one blessing through, as you say, this new world is that it's given. Of course, I'd love to, travel back to Wales on the train and be safe.

Stephen Drew: And I'm sure you wouldn't like to be quarantining in a hotel. But there's these kind of weird and wonderful things that come out of it. And I imagine as well, you've probably picked up a lot of new readers. During this year, I imagined as well, like you said, some of the articles that have come from this year have been born out of this crisis as well.

Stephen Drew: And we got to speak to, and it was fun to do the article and, actually talking about how we did it as well as. I'm used to before this year, it'd be old school, we'd be meeting, we'd be, we'd meet in somewhere in person in my office, or you go to a prac, but everything's on zoom right now, isn't it?

Stephen Drew: And it was great to be interviewed on zoom. And in one way, [00:05:00] it makes it a bit more accessible. It was actually incredibly easy for us to do the interview. And I'm just wondering now is you say that a lot of people can collaborate. Are you looking for. More students to get involved as well. And can they, can people write articles and can people suggest, interview ideas like we had?

Dolunay Dogahan: Yes, definitely. So we, when we set up, we were mainly students but actually. Now we've evolved into being young people led. But the contributions can be from anyone of any age, any background. We had submissions from all around the world, which was quite unexpected when we set up, we were group of students from Cardiff University.

Dolunay Dogahan: So we were quite, we started quite local. And now we have submissions from Australia to Canada to France. Yeah.

Challenges and Changes in Architecture Education
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Dolunay Dogahan: And the reason, like you said, it's very important, actually, especially this year, it showed to be connected, to feel supported, to feel like you're [00:06:00] not alone going through things. And this was the inspiration behind it.

Dolunay Dogahan: I had When I first went in this industry, which was in my first year of master's in Cardiff, you do integrated industry and working in practice and doing your studies. And I had some tough experiences of fitting in and navigating my way through it. And the to be frank, a lot of frustrations.

Dolunay Dogahan: And one of the great things that year was that we had this module called reflective practice, which was us writing about reflecting on that year, on that month, every month we would write like a blocks within the our year group, and then everyone would read it. And what that did is, because mine most of the time ended up as complaining about some of the frustrations I was living through rather than necessarily talking about planning applications a lot of people in my year felt quite, confident all of a sudden in themselves.

Dolunay Dogahan: And [00:07:00] they were like, actually, what I'm going through is wrong. And it's not because of me, I'm not going through this alone. It's actually a systemic thing which is important. And it was important for me to feel like other people could relate as well, rather than thinking that the problem was my experience alone.

Dolunay Dogahan: And, that involved is basically that idea, but scaled up.

Stephen Drew: It's quite fleshed out already, isn't it? It's to me, it's, there's so much value in there. You had Stephen Lawrence. You've got a few other people as well. So it's interesting, as you said. I quite liked your analogy there at first having a whinge about stuff, cause I'm the same as that.

Stephen Drew: I think it's the British way, isn't it? A little bit of complaining and stuff, but what I like is actually to make it somewhat productive. And I think that it's really important, especially now, that kind of community aspect of it. And what I love is that on Involve, you mentioned the idea came from you and a few people, a few fellow students in Cardiff, shout out to Cardiff.

Stephen Drew: Hello, Welch. I didn't [00:08:00] get into Cardiff actually. Do you know what? I didn't have good. I didn't have, I didn't have good enough grades, I, you had to have all A's and I had AAB and then I got a remark and I got AAA, but it was too late. So do you know what? I know, but it's a really good university.

Stephen Drew: I absolutely love the city as well. And what I love the idea that it was a collaborative effort that you all set up involved. I gosh, you're right. I almost wanted to say the pun then you got involved together and set up involved, but no it's such a cool thing. And I quite liked it as well, just to bring it back to my literal experience.

Stephen Drew: You being interviewed there. So it was, it's, it was fun. It was fun. Do you have any plans? Do you see where it goes or is part of the magic of involved? Like you said, because you mentioned it was systemic and it came from a certain need, but. A bit like the Arctic for social, it evolves over time because we change people, we move on.

Stephen Drew: How have you seen it change over the last few months and how have you found [00:09:00] involved as a platform? Do you have a little idea where it's going or are you open minded?

Dolunay Dogahan: Yeah. We all have what we think we're going, like targets and then along the way, things that you didn't plan for happen.

Dolunay Dogahan: And they're also welcome. And one of the, like I said, things that we didn't expect to happen was going global. Now we've had orders from Las Vegas to New Zealand to anywhere. And that kind of shows that, we, it's not even in just in the UK that we're not alone in our experiences as architectural assistants.

Dolunay Dogahan: And, to go into more sort of specifics. So when we started we were kind of team of 40, because I set up a meeting and I put up posters. It was just me and and another friend that was like, Oh, I'll help you. So we printed posters. We put it on the walls saying, there's this idea, if you're interested, come along.

Dolunay Dogahan: And I booked this tiny room and my friends were like, what if people don't show up? I was like, I don't [00:10:00] know. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. Got some biscuits, put them on a table. And, yeah, there was 40, 50 people in there. And it also goes to show how diversely skilled people in architecture are because there were people that then became our web designers.

Dolunay Dogahan: So all our website is coded by a wonderful Gina, shout out to her, who's also an architecture student. Our design of the magazine and everything is done again through architecture students. diverse set of skills. But so when we first started, we also had writers that we did workshops with and we were publishing our own articles that we discussed.

Dolunay Dogahan: But through time, it like I said, became more of a platform where now people reach to us. So we had during the pandemic, people that really wanted to write about the inequalities created and within education because of this pandemic that made. everyone's experiences different. And, our IBA failed to recognize that, failed to recognize that things [00:11:00] are different.

Dolunay Dogahan: The line that they were taking was, Oh, nothing's changed. Maybe you can't make models, but everything else is equal. And everything else of course, isn't equal because everyone's resources back home isn't the same. The support of the studio is not there. Some people are away from their families.

Dolunay Dogahan: Some people had to deal with illnesses or their family members being ill. It was amazing to be there for people that wanted to get things out there and that was the biggest change throughout time. And so what I see where I see involved going is being the voice of those who are not heard.

Dolunay Dogahan: We were there when the Black Lives Matter movement was there and we said. Write to us because we alone maybe can't can't reflect the experiences that you're going through, but what we can do is we can amplify it. And that's what, that's how I see it. I see us as being the amplifier.

Stephen Drew: I think it's it makes a lot of [00:12:00] sense and. I quite like that the voice of Revolved changes over time. That's very interesting because you're talking about Blacklight. There's so much like keystones key corner points in the last year or two, which is a lot of fuel for the fire. And it is quite interesting, you mentioned there, Reba's stance.

The Role of RIBA and Future Prospects
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Stephen Drew: I my, my views and perceptions of Reba, especially when I was a student, have completely changed, I, on one hand I respected Reba, but I remember at one point in particular, feeling like that they weren't necessarily supportive to me when I was a student sorry Reba, if you're listening, that's just how I felt at the time.

Stephen Drew: I didn't feel particularly involved back then. Oops, sorry. Magazine name again. I didn't feel involved. Oh no. That's why we set

Dolunay Dogahan: up Involved.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. That's why we

Dolunay Dogahan: called it Involved.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And I will say though, I do think that they make it an effort. The problem is with, I think Reaver and other companies is that.

Stephen Drew: The thing is they've been set up [00:13:00] for a long period of time and they're big organizations and to make changes in these organizations, it can take takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of time. It's a bit like the analogy of, I think it's trying to get the Titanic to move. Sometimes it might hit like the ice because it's taken so slow, but it's like stuff like evolved and hopefully what I enjoy about the architecture social love.

Stephen Drew: The fact is we can change and alter and we can move things around what we feel is important and react to people who are listening, who are reading, who have coming up with ideas. And I think that I do believe it's been a bit of a culture shock for Reba at the moment because they hopefully Simon Alford, who's joining will shake things up as well.

Stephen Drew: I quite like Simon because he leads AHMN, that's a commercial architectural practice. It's a serious architectural practice. And hopefully that his industry experience will trickle down. But what do you think about then stuff that Reba are doing now? What about Reba, [00:14:00] because they've got one or two things.

Stephen Drew: Future

Dolunay Dogahan: architects they have. Yeah. What are

Stephen Drew: you, what's your opinion on future architects? Has it been useful at all?

Dolunay Dogahan: I think it's positive in the sense that one of the criticisms that we had is, especially due to the long time it takes to become an architect, you have a lot of young people like yourself, like myself, that are not architects and that kind of feel like they're not represented in Reba or in the mainstream magazines, and These people also have input, per se, and they might have different different issues than what is being written and talked about.

Dolunay Dogahan: And representation, as we've been talking more and more this year, is very important whether that's age, whether that's race, whether that's, any other background. And I think, That is one of the problems is that you have important debates happening, but young people are not included in these debates.

Dolunay Dogahan: You have discussion over architecture education happening and you have [00:15:00] all these practices criticizing universities and education saying education should prepare students for the industry. But you don't have industry learning from education and there is quite valuable lessons to learn from architecture universities as well.

Dolunay Dogahan: The, the research culture, the culture of the studio, they're all positive things to also feed back into the industry. So we hold ourselves as the bridge between education and industry, because we see it as a two way street. It shouldn't. They shouldn't look the same, they shouldn't be the same, but they should inform each other.

Dolunay Dogahan: And I think that is what's missing. I think most students still don't really feel connected to REBA or represented by REBA, which is changing. There's also an open letter being written by Charlie Edmond, I think Right now, I don't know if you heard of it, he's been compiling sort of survey from architectural assistants talking about these issues that we're highlighting, which is, [00:16:00] I think is amazing.

Dolunay Dogahan: We are actually featuring an article by him very soon. So keep an eye out for that, but positive things are happening. But I think for that, we all need to push and make make ourselves heard.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It's and as people speak up, things are not going to change.

Stephen Drew: And I think that it's really important to be vocal and do it in the right way and to bring presence on the issue. Well done. I'm really curious to see Charlie's little thing. I'm definitely going to keep my eye out for this open letter. Is that going to be, that's going to be on the website?

Stephen Drew: Is it? That's going to be quite interesting. Check

Dolunay Dogahan: his Instagram. He's been mostly doing it for Instagram. And I think they're planning on sending it next week. And there was, what's quite interesting is in their survey they had a question where they said, do you feel supported by RIBA?

Dolunay Dogahan: And I think. The outcome was an astonishing [00:17:00] 97%. No. Wow. Which kind of goes to answer your question, of how people are feeling.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I've been objective, sorry, Reba, if you're listening. When I was a student, it's the truth. I also didn't feel very supported at the time. It's good that we got stuff going on now, but you're right, it needs to be a con a conscious effort.

Job Hunting Tips for Architecture Graduates
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Stephen Drew: And I do think as well speaking a little bit about my experiences that we, yeah, the jump when I was a part one and a part two, more so when I was a part one from academia into industry, it felt like being thrown out of the nest. It was a bit like when you see the nature shows and you've got David Attenborough and a certain certain birds, which they like, there aren't, there was one particular bird you have to bear with me with a second. You gave this a

Dolunay Dogahan: lot of thought, didn't you? No,

Stephen Drew: it just comes to me now, but there's there's one bird and they've got this nest and they're underneath a waterfall. And the children, they have to like, the children birds, they have to just jump out of this nest.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And they [00:18:00] either learn. to fly or they tumble to their death. Sorry, it sounds a bit grim, but what I mean is that I felt like I was that bird being thrown out and it's go on, you've got to get a job now. Are you obviously

Dolunay Dogahan: flu? Phew.

Stephen Drew: Barely and Oh, I guess what is that feeling of when most people get there, no one crashes in this analogy on the rocks and dies.

Stephen Drew: Yay. Okay. But what I do think though, is that a lot of people tumble on the way. And there's something about the analogy when you're mid flight. I remember the feeling of just being like. I don't know how to get a job. I'm just trying and that's a little bit why I try to use this time to shed a light on if you were a part one or a part two, how I would go about getting a job based upon my experience now.

Stephen Drew: and how I felt as a student. And that really was the origin of our article in The Vault, wasn't it? It was my personal experience and I quite, when you read back [00:19:00] it's so funny because I can hear myself talk in the text and I'm like, oh god, this is.

Dolunay Dogahan: What's great is that you were being open and honest about it and that is the frustration.

Dolunay Dogahan: thing about the whole process is that people are not open. They might say, Oh, we really like you and be really positive. And then they just stop replying to your emails. And when you are out of university looking for a job, not knowing what you're doing wrong, you really, I understand that, for them.

Dolunay Dogahan: They don't have time, they don't have the most architecture practices, they don't have enough resources. But still, just write back and say, you could do this better. Maybe just give feedback, and that feedback is the best thing you can give to someone, rather than just ghosting. The young graduate, which is very disheartening.

Stephen Drew: Yeah you've hit upon a really good point and it's a passion point for me. I feel like I'm, I've been beating the drum on this for a few months, but it's if it helps people out, it's a [00:20:00] really big deal. And what you highlighted there, you talked about how important feedback is, and you can still get it, but what you've, what we've got to do, and I guess this point of the article is saying, you've got to be like your own recruitment consultant all, you've got to Basically fight for yourself as in people are going to be busy, like you quite rightly just pointed out, but we've got to have the strength and the courage to, to call the companies up.

Stephen Drew: Because I guarantee if you call them, you can probably get that feedback because when you get someone on the phone and you get that human interaction, they'll probably bring up your CV and get you that feedback, but the whole idea of doing that. Feels very unnatural. I never done it before. Now I say it so easily and I know guys, anyone listening, it's going to be like the idea of ringing up for feedback.

Stephen Drew: It's just overwhelming. No one likes to be on the phone. It's not exactly what we're training for, but it's stuff like that. We'll get you ahead. And I tell you the other one that I find interesting is when I've seen [00:21:00] so many of these things online where, and I've even seen one or two of, there's someone that I know and I respect is a really good architectural director.

Stephen Drew: He talked about. When you are looking for a job, you need to get your CV and portfolio and tailor it to every company. And ideally, even in coronavirus, you put on your mask. Putting on the mask down the road, getting the bell going. You put on the mask and then you go and you hand deliver this. Portfolio and CV, which cost you God knows how much, cause you've printed it.

Stephen Drew: And I feel like that's okay for the one or two practices you love, but we've got to come out of Rose tinted glasses world and wake up. Okay. That was a really good bell. That was a,

Stephen Drew: yeah, because wake up because I know that, I know from an opposed perspective that they want to feel like this. [00:22:00] Employees handwritten something, they really want to work with them. But I'm saying from the architectural students perspective is that we have to be really commercial about this because you have to look out for yourself.

Stephen Drew: And the reality is in situations like this, you've got to use probability. And what I'm talking about, and that's the bit that I enjoy talking about in our article was that my view is that you should send. 1, 000 to 2, 000 CVs at the moment. There's a list I'm working on at the moment, and I reckon there's about 400, 4, 000 architectural practices in the UK.

Stephen Drew: Okay. So if you think there's 4, 000 architectural practices, we have architectural practices in the UK, and there's a few places which aren't. Reba charter, because you don't need to necessarily to practice architecture. It can be some multidisciplinary companies. They're not Reba certified, but this, so we've got 4, 000 here.

Stephen Drew: Sorry, mini rant send in soon. But basically if you send 20 applications out of 4, 000, you've immediately discounted 3, 980 practices. [00:23:00] Yeah. And you've got to, you've got to use things and you've got to look at it in an unconventional way. And the problem is with the advice I'm given is that it doesn't have the rose tinted, romantic notion of architecture, or it's like, Oh, I'd studied for three years and I did the beautiful portfolio for this company and I sent them a book and it had a ribbon and a CV.

Stephen Drew: And it's just it's not necessarily always the real world. And so for anyone listening, I don't want them to think that because they've sent a CV to a hundred practices. Okay. And you'd never heard of them before. Doesn't mean it's actually my opinion is the right way, because my approach of doing this, I joined up at EPR architects, which we talk about in the article and which is a great company.

Stephen Drew: I never heard of them at the time. I didn't tell them that, I went through and then the email came in and I was like, okay. All right. Oh, EPR interested. Who's EPR? And then I looked, I was like, hot [00:24:00] damn they're good. And you, then you get excited, don't you? And then you zone in on it.

Stephen Drew: But if if I never wrote that list from A to Z, I wouldn't have got there. So anyways. I, we, I've gone off on a mini tangent, but it's because it's passionate.

Dolunay Dogahan: Yeah, you're right. And they don't tell you that in university, like so many other things that they tell you, such as, Oh don't use software, use hand drawing because it's more, romantic.

Dolunay Dogahan: thing. Isn't it? Yeah. I know. They love it. They love it. They're like, Oh, do you use Revit? And you're like, no, but I have nice drawings. And then,

Stephen Drew: It's scratch 22 because I'm going to, I'm going to help you because I'm going to, I was, when I was a part one I was the guy who scraped a 40 on the hand drawing class, but I was good on microstation.

Stephen Drew: I had all this stuff. I do think though, cause my flatmate, Natalie Gao, who she lived with me for a few years. She's a wonderful architect at EPR Architects. That's where we met and she has the most amazing hand [00:25:00] drawings. Oh, they're amazing. And they're so good. But you can use CAD as well.

Stephen Drew: And you're right. And so with your distinction, I do think it's amazing that CADA teach you hand drawing and the beauty of it. I think

Dolunay Dogahan: it's amazing that just don't give the impression that's what people out there are looking for. Say you need to get these skills, but it's the same with the portfolio advice.

Dolunay Dogahan: They tell you to do it, cater it for the practice and stuff. And it's fine for the first. But then you still don't have a job. You run out of money to print the portfolios and the patients to write. And then you start being a bit more economical with your time. But the thing is, I also do understand the other side because having gone through a part one experience where I.

Dolunay Dogahan: worked in a practice where I didn't feel like my input was valued because I was an architectural assistant or the office culture didn't fit me. I was much more aware of going into an office that was different to that in my part two. And [00:26:00] if that meant that I had to be a bit more selective, I was willing to do that.

Dolunay Dogahan: And I think there's a lot of young people out there that their expectation from what a job should be is a little bit different to the generation before us, which was more about security. Now people are also seeking to have a bit more. Meaning to their job to feel valued because you also spend so much time working.

Dolunay Dogahan: And most of it over time and unpaid, unfortunately still. So you don't want to feel like that's not valued. You don't want to, and there's also other dimensions to it where people from minority backgrounds also. want to see representation of minority background people within the practice which is something that a lot of young people say that they look at, they go onto the staff webpage and they look at who's there, who's working who's made it into becoming a director.

Dolunay Dogahan: I think it does say a [00:27:00] lot about the practice and the nature of practices. And at the end of the day, I feel like the way we eliminate some toxic. work habits and office environments is by not supporting them, by not going into them, because they have this mentality that there's. There's people lining up at their door waiting so if one doesn't work, then the next one will come.

Stephen Drew: Do you know what? I feel like that's changing. I do feel like that you can't get away with it anymore. And I think a lot of this stuff we're talking about wasn't just prevalent in architecture. It's in across other industries. And Hey, you've only got to look at the film industry and Harvey Weinstein.

Stephen Drew: This is a very literal example, but it's almost laughable and tragic at the same time that this has been going on for so long in certain things. And I do feel that in architecture, one of the most prevalent things that's still happening is the issue of working long hours and it's it's a myriad of factors.

Stephen Drew: And the reality is it causes so much problems in these businesses. It's why [00:28:00] I'm brought in as a recruitment consultant half the time, because someone leaves and it's because they've been burnt out of the long hours, which ironically is then more expensive than treating the person. Because if I'm hiring someone, sorry, if I, if you're looking for say, no, you're practicing the future.

Stephen Drew: If you're briefing me because you need someone urgently. It's a few thousand pounds, when I find someone, because that's how the introductions work, which sounds like a lot in theory, if I was just here on my iPhone and I get one CV and sent across, but it's more like a lawyer it's billable hours and.

Stephen Drew: What you'll find is that a thousand few thousand pound introduction is quite quick. It's not it's, if you divide that per hour that I work, it soon racks up. So let's go back again a little bit.

Navigating Early Career Experiences
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Stephen Drew: You touched upon the, the long hours and these kinds of companies. And one of the things that came into my head when you were talking about it is it's almost good in one way, but I do encourage people you've.

Stephen Drew: Even if the first architectural practice you go to isn't perfect, [00:29:00] it's a really good benchmark for you as an individual to then make your decisions in the future. Because I agree, I remember I worked, I enjoyed my time at EPR Architects, I had good experience. I was an intern for Swansea Council and they were really good to me, but it was a totally different.

Contrasting Work Cultures
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Stephen Drew: Totally different world working for the government and the council than a private commercial architecture practice. And I'll tell you what, there was one company that he's still practicing, so I'm not going to say his name. And while I worked at EPR Architects, I did I there was a competition at the time with this company and what it was is that this practice was the design architect when EPR with the delivery architect.

Stephen Drew: And this individual had been someone that's, that is very good designer, right? A very good designer. And so his architectural practice, he had his style. So he used to work many years at a famous architectural practice and very good design. But there was in [00:30:00] the college for that imprinted on him, and now he set up his architectural practice.

Stephen Drew: I joined there for a week. And I didn't know everything I was trying out. They were trying on a deadline and he was a little bit impatient with me. And I, I'd get something wrong and he'd be like, no, it's not that it's this. And I remember like in my head sitting in front of your computer at the mouse is dreading.

Stephen Drew: Getting it wrong. I'd be like, Oh, I can't swear here, but I'd be like, Oh, Oh God, I don't know what I'm going to do something wrong. And and then I remember it was also my birthday at the time and and he was wanting done me to work the weekend and I'm happy to work.

The Impact of Long Hours
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Stephen Drew: I used to be happy to work the weekend sometimes, but the amount of hours that went in anyways, the point is with this, I didn't enjoy that experience at all.

Stephen Drew: EPR architects were the opposite. I did very good hours, they were very supportive towards me. We had one weekend in the whole time I was there and it was completely optional. It wasn't forced. And [00:31:00] actually it was something that was a bit out of EPR's control. It was the kind of the client changing things at the last minute.

Stephen Drew: And so I didn't mind doing that. But the difference was, is because EPR architects treated me respectfully. I was happy to give them the extra time, whereas the several architectural practice where I was for a short period of time, it just felt like being a slave to the grinds up against this competition.

Stephen Drew: And I really didn't enjoy that as well. So I totally know how, when you're on about this kind of thing of working long hours or feeling a bit unappreciated or I felt at the time, the perception was that. I should have been privileged to be a part of the competition, whereas That's the

Dolunay Dogahan: thing, isn't it?

Dolunay Dogahan: They treat it as if they're doing you a favor.

Stephen Drew: Yeah in this practice, but no, do we have to be objective on this? What I find funny is that once you go at this competition, like almost [00:32:00] devil wears Prada world, because there are a few architectural practices where, the design is so killer that if you want to be involved.

Stephen Drew: You almost have to, there's a price to pay and it's good to do it when you're almost younger, so that you, because it's not sustainable when you're older. And look, if you want to be part of the thrill ride and you want to go for it, great, but just know what you're signing up to. There's so many other architectural practices, which you can work nine to five, They're not as famous, but you can do really good quality design.

Stephen Drew: You can make a big difference. And that's the thing with anyone in the job search now, and you touched upon it earlier where you went somewhere, you didn't feel as valued. And then actually it reinforces your choices in the future. And what I was agreeing with in your sentiment there is that.

Stephen Drew: That's why I have a respect for EPR architects and they quite like that commercial architectural practice with good design, where you work, nine to five 30, you might work there a bit later than six. But for me, I wasn't interested in that culture that I [00:33:00] experienced of working till half past 11.

Stephen Drew: I think the other thing

Dolunay Dogahan: with those long hours that many fails to see. So I had I was one of the panelists for this talk called expectation meets reality. And it was about this education versus industry. And one of the panelists was Jared Evenden from Foster and Partners. And he was saying how for him.

Dolunay Dogahan: Hours put in doesn't matter when he's, passionate about it and it's design and all that. And, to an extent that's what you were saying, but one of the things that, that ends up doing is that you automatically.

Gender Disparities in Architecture
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Dolunay Dogahan: Disclude some people from the career because they might not be able to put in those extra hours and it doesn't show less of a passion or less of a willingness to do, design, but they might have someone at home to look after to, they might have kids to pick up from school and, due to the way the society is.

Dolunay Dogahan: still [00:34:00] and the support there is, it usually ends up being the woman that needs to do that, whether or not she, she's a career woman and all that. A man is rarely ever stopped due to having a kid. You never, you go to talk some. I've went to this talk with Pharoah sorry, with Farshid Mousavi and the interviewer, who was also a woman she was asking, how do you juggle being a mum and and an architect?

Dolunay Dogahan: And the thing is, you never hear that being asked to, Sir Norman Foster or like any other sort of male architect. So why is it? seen as something still like woman's responsibility and an extra job and, she was put on the spot and she got a little little red and she was saying, Oh, I probably don't do a good job of balancing those two.

Dolunay Dogahan: And she, you could see that she felt the responsibility of this and the, but, so coming back to my point, I think most practices miss the point that. that is not just about a choice. Sometimes, and [00:35:00] most of the times when you have that, that is one of the reasons why you don't have equal representation and diversity within your practice.

Dolunay Dogahan: But I guess I was lucky that was not the problem I had in my part one experience, but it was more the the perception of what an architectural assistant could bring, to give you an example, I would say something about landlord because I was interested in it.

Dolunay Dogahan: Believe it or not. And I read about it a little and an architect would get angry that I spoke. And I said something that contradicted to what they said. And they were, I had this experience where he got up and he said, Oh, remind me when you got your pot free again. And then he just stormed out of the room and everyone was looking at me and, everyone was looking at me thinking, Why are you speaking?

Dolunay Dogahan: You shouldn't be speaking. You're part one. That's not why you're here to do that. What you're here to do. So it's this sort of things that we need to change, to at the end of the day, you need to [00:36:00] make everyone feel respected and welcome within the practice.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I think I think that by and large, actually a lot of places are getting better. You're always going to get, unfortunately in life, it's such as with companies, we're all people. And you have the companies like drive and agenda, but you also have people's subliminal biases that they bring from their personal life.

Stephen Drew: The, or maybe I, what I mean is sometimes I've had the experience of you're on one project and you can have one team leader and it can be this way. And then you go to another team and it's completely different. And so unfortunately it's really hard to get this like. Benchmark everywhere. A really good example is I actually quite Heatherwick's attitude of that when Thomas Heatherwick is doing, and I've been, I've recruited for them.

Stephen Drew: They are quite good at this stuff, actually, that his view is that. Anyone can participate to the idea as long [00:37:00] as they can articulate and what they're talking about. And it's a sensible discussion. He will take an idea from a part 1, if the idea has value. And in that sense, fantastic. But then as well, because I have it with the stuff they do.

Stephen Drew: The projects are amazing, but that does take a lot of time. And I do think that with places like that, it is one of these things of you are doing revolutionary architecture. I imagine though, it's quite difficult sometimes to finish a half five a certain of these projects. I do think though, this is what you touched upon earlier, which is interesting is.

Stephen Drew: Women in architecture. And I think that's a big reason you touched upon for a while, where there was a massive, do you remember even a year or two ago? I think it was like two or three years ago, there was a big deal in the A. J. and B. D. and quite rightly, because you had a certain architectural practices where there was a massive disparity between.

Stephen Drew: What a male architect would earn and a female architect, almost in a similar position [00:38:00] or the same position. And the female architect was getting paid less, which is actually wrong in my opinion. And that's why it's good to see that salaries are getting even, but it does come from what you're on about actually, because unfortunately.

Stephen Drew: You're right. So it's, I can see that, a really enthusiastic architect as female and, you've decided a life for whatever reason you're going to have a child was fantastic. It's something to be celebrated, but you're right. It almost in a mad way. Then it puts a little bit of the brake on the person's career.

Stephen Drew: And that has a massive knock on effect for salaries. And, and then as well, it's really hard sometimes for. A woman in architecture, the return to architectural practice because she hasn't worked for a while. And I do think employers are getting much better.

Promoting Workplace Wellbeing
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Stephen Drew: And I have seen some examples of architectural practices who have schemes to return women, professional women who are awesome, kick ass architects back to work.

Stephen Drew: I think Bespoke Careers did one as well. And I think it's really [00:39:00] important. But it's again, it's like the magazine, and I'm going to say the word, I was going to say. We all need to get involved, but the duty is, yeah, because,

Dolunay Dogahan: you need people to talk about these issues for them to be tackled.

Dolunay Dogahan: And for that, you also need people in decision making points that this is making statuses that, our woman and think about these things.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think it's so spot on. I think actually there's maybe on a bit of good news as well. Let's put a bit of a highlight.

Celebrating Positive Practices
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Stephen Drew: I tell you companies that are really good at this and should be inspirational for any employers out there.

Stephen Drew: So HTA, I work with them. They are really good employers. And I've also worked with John Thompson Partners, JTP. They've won like employee of the year. They look after people. And so I think we should, it's like that actually is when people do really well, it should be really celebrated. And that's the good thing we need to, I think, and this is what's good about the magazine and because you can highlight this stuff as well, and I think that the way one of the ways we go forward.

Stephen Drew: [00:40:00] And one of the ways which businesses will respond is because we can always talk about disparities and we should do better. But what's really interesting is when we look at companies which do it right and the benefits and gains they get. Because if we can focus and shine a light on that, then you'll find all these other architectural practices will follow suit.

Stephen Drew: So I'll give you a really good one, right? So I I absolutely have the worst attention span ever. Okay. And there was, and so I'm involved in the Arctics Benevolent Society. I believe it was the Arctics Benevolent Society, but they invited this lady and she was inspirational. I'm going to, I think she, her name was, let me find the name, but she basically was the strike track land right now, which is like a multidisciplinary company.

Stephen Drew: And she, and her role was. Head of people and it was a role which didn't exist. Oh, I'll have to find Yeah it's but in this one, oh, it was [00:41:00] looks like head of happiness or something. And basically, so Stride Traglodon, when she joins And people were taking days off sick. There was long hours working.

Stephen Drew: People were generally unhappy. And so high turn of

Dolunay Dogahan: people as well.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And they, it caused big problems for the business because there was some underlying and unhappiness is on strike track loan. And what it meant is that people were less productive. They worked longer hours. They were less productive and people were having big sick days.

Stephen Drew: All right. It makes sense. I can totally, if I've been working long in the grind for ages, you're like, I only feel a bit sick today. Do you know what I mean? You're like, I'm feeling a bit sick. Cause it's actually, it's a protest point because I'm blind and you've given a lot. And basically this lady, she was so good in Stripe Tregla and then she wasn't from architecture.

Stephen Drew: And this was a really important distinction. She just looked at the business as an interesting point. I think cause she was doing. Studies in this area about human psychology and how to improve. [00:42:00] And basically what they found out was that by removing overtime or the requirement to do it as a culture, people then give more time when they wanted to, because it wasn't expected.

Stephen Drew: Saying that I work for your team. you've been really good for me. And we were in a bit of a jam, right? I go no, no problem. I'm staying because this one's important. And that's what's

Dolunay Dogahan: highlighted this year as well. The efficiency and productivity of people have actually gone up. The statistics say during this year where people were working at home, which has been a.

Dolunay Dogahan: Cause of concern for many practices, but yeah, and this sort of thing will actually, having these flexible work practices, allowing people to work a little bit from home, a little bit from office will also mean that you, I think we would see more women in architecture and and not having to necessarily take time off work.

Dolunay Dogahan: Like I said, ideally the long term goal shouldn't just be a woman staying at home, looking after the kid and working, but, the role [00:43:00] being shared and the government supporting childcare more. But that's a greater discussion for probably outside of the scope of this podcast.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I think we're getting nitty gritty. We'll have to come and return and do a few more of these as well. I'll find out. So here we go. I think it was. Here we go. It might've been, so I'm just, that's why I was typing away while we were talking. So Pride Treadloan, they were the first company and I think it was Nicola Rich, I'm pretty sure it was.

Stephen Drew: And so she was HR advisor and coach and she, so yeah, so in 2011 she was trained as a counselor and later as an emotional intelligence coach, and then she joined. And in 2014, she implemented a workplace wellbeing charter.

Dolunay Dogahan: And

Stephen Drew: she had to go and she, and it was brilliant. It was brilliant listening because she had to go into this meeting with all the directors and be like, we're going to have a workplace wellbeing charter.

Stephen Drew: No one's going to [00:44:00] work long hours. And can you imagine this board was just like, are you kidding me? We got projects going out the door. And actually she won them over cause StrideTrek are a good company. And she introduced all this stuff in, and then they, when they got this wellbeing thing, they looked after people were being paid well, people were given treats.

Stephen Drew: I think they did introduce stuff like, and you have to forgive me, Nicola, if you're listening, this is complimentary. I can't remember the exact details, but it was a little bit more like the early Google culture before Google. Now again, a bit more evil like Facebook, but there was a bit more that early thing of work 80 percent and then you have a little bit of time to develop stuff. And basically all these stuff that Nicola introduced, people were getting more productive. They were taking less sick days. They were having higher outputs. They were happy and they stayed longer. No one was leaving.

Stephen Drew: And so then what actually happens is you, at first, the idea of. Working these long hours, it almost seems like you have to do it [00:45:00] to get the projects. So it can be a bit, it can be a bit intimidating and there's a lot of factors going on. But what was interesting is that through introducing this wellbeing, then Stripe Triathlon saved a lot of money.

Stephen Drew: They were more efficient as a business. And I think that. The more value we place in ourselves as architects or architectural assistants or the more people that I speak to by the stuff about we have to stick strong with our fees. We have to look out for each other. We have to rely. I think we have to help each other out.

Stephen Drew: We have to fight for issues that you highlight about. Pay disparity between men and men, architects and women. I think it's just crazy when you think about it. Half the architects I know who are amazing are female architects. And you don't want to push people out of business and we need to as well next year, because it's a really difficult for architects who have not from the EU.

Stephen Drew: Christ. I know it will be difficult for architects within the EU to work in the UK. I think we have to make an extra effort. And Reba, I've made a stance that they want to support it, [00:46:00] but it comes down to us all at the moment to remember what architecture in London is amazing.

Stephen Drew: And there is a reason we all study it because there's something awesome about it that, you can't quite put your finger on, but there is something still so good with architecture. And that's why we do not have the salaries of lawyers and all this stuff. And we do work. A lot of extra hours at certain times, and we do enjoy it because there's something there, but what it is we can't let everything else than we can't let the passion being taken for granted.

Encouraging Involvement and Change
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Stephen Drew: And that's why we've got to make sure, like you said, you've got to constantly be vocal about this community's key people being involved and involved with him and people being on the social and. And, it's encouraging Reba when they do something really good to get involved and to keep going.

Stephen Drew: And it's that attitude of, you can't just complain about things. It's like you turned that moan that you said in Cardiff into a magazine where you can encourage and [00:47:00] debate and better things. And it's about realizing that none of us are perfect. I've been a manager and it's a lot difficult.

Stephen Drew: And it, it's easy to say, Oh, I'm going to do X, Y, Z. But when you're in the driving seat and you've got a project, it's difficult, but it's about learning and improving and discussing and not dwelling on the past so much. But it's we have a chance now to improve the. We've got a chance to keep supporting others.

Stephen Drew: We go, hopefully Reba's Future Architects will become serious. We have your magazine, which is going to highlight that cool sale, eh? I think,

Dolunay Dogahan: It's amazing because you have a lot of people that's what's amazing with architecture is that you have people that are interested in many things across the board.

Dolunay Dogahan: bringing experiences, bringing knowledge. And like you say, that's one of the great things about not just London, but UK architecture and architects is that they come from all over the world. And with that, they bring a wealth of knowledge, wealth of [00:48:00] references, wealth of, things that you yourself wouldn't think about.

Dolunay Dogahan: And I think that's the thing where. no matter their age, no matter what, everyone brings something to the table. So the more we hear from everyone, the better as designers we are. And at the end of the day, for us to design spaces, we need to be inspired. We need to be happy. You design happy spaces when you're happy.

Dolunay Dogahan: Otherwise Otherwise, life is not as colorful.

Stephen Drew: Wow, this is it. And also, what I would say is, I respect personally when things change, right? And to take accountability of a certain situation and improve it is amazing. It's about an architectural practice. If you're a team leader, managing people's time efficiently so that they work less hours.

Stephen Drew: Fantastic. It's about embracing things and making a change. And I think that companies like HTA and John Thompson partners, where it's so important, employee wellbeing and constantly pushing ahead, that should be celebrated, but architectural practices, which aren't doing it so far, [00:49:00] it's not like. Ah, it's, I would just encourage everyone there to start embracing and making these changes, and also it, this transpires, this attitude, I think trickles down from everything.

Stephen Drew: It's for architectural students right now. If you're a little bit upset with the current situation or you're feeling a bit lost, you do have to, Oh, I'm going to say the pun again. Get involved. You too. Get involved

Dolunay Dogahan: people.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Get involved. Actually it's, there's loads of.

Stephen Drew: Massive benefits to it. It's like getting involved with involved, you're being proactive, you're doing something you're thinking, you're adding something, you're putting your creative juices out there, whether you're doing a big piece of artwork and then selling it. If as long as it, doing something positive.

Stephen Drew: I think that's really helpful. There's so many groups to get involved with as well. And charities. So the Arctic's Benevolent Society I'm involved with, and you've also got article 25 I guess you can. do a piece of drawing and [00:50:00] sell it for charity. There's so much stuff that's handy there because then we can use your Cardiff skills, can't we?

Stephen Drew: The hand drawing. It won't get you a job. The job will, you need Revit to get a job right now, let me tell you. You do. I learned

Dolunay Dogahan: it the hard way, don't worry. Yeah, you

Stephen Drew: learned it the hard way. But I guess the point that I want to drill in is what's really impressive about Or some is to scale. There's a few other examples out there.

Stephen Drew: I love that when someone experiences a situation that maybe could be bettered, you've set these things up to discuss it. And it's really important. And that's the bit of. I joked earlier that in Cardiff we were set up because we had a little whinge about something, but actually the whole point about involved is not negative.

Stephen Drew: It's not Oh, it's to me, like an example of bad journalism is the sun. Just complaining. Yeah. And a verse. No, that's not allowed.

Dolunay Dogahan: We have editors and we always, [00:51:00] we always check an idea and an article that's submitted to us. And if someone says, these are the problems we always get.

Dolunay Dogahan: give feedback, okay, what's your solution? We need to really think deeper. If we see a problem, we should also think, okay, what's the alternative? What can be better? Because by putting that out there is what we, when we actually get somewhere. So you're absolutely right. We need to go beyond the negative thinking.

Dolunay Dogahan: And we need to work at it. But first of all, we also need to raise these things. And a lot of people, feel encouraged when other people Start speaking.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And I think to go back, I think it's celebrating that when companies or architects or anyone does something right, and then there's a reward, that's the way we're going to lead people, and I think that's why I was quite, I quite enjoyed it.

Stephen Drew: And I know I've stressed the point home about Shire Tragland, but I was so impressed when I watched it because what it is stuff like that leads by example, getting involved with involved, I said it again [00:52:00] leads by example, we've got to keep being active and doing stuff and learning and getting, we've got to be.

Stephen Drew: Pushing forward, we've got to lead by example. We all have to. And that's why that's where to come full circle. What we talked about. That's how you change certain things like such in the rebound. That's why future architects is around is because clearly they've seen a need there and disparity of this.

Stephen Drew: There hasn't been really much for students and they're making an effort. And I think the more that evolved and come and sauna and scale and a few others. You soon as we, as long as we keep beating the drum, things will change.

Conclusion and Future Plans
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Stephen Drew: So what I was going to say now is I think this has been a good little chat.

Stephen Drew: I'm conscious that I'm good. I don't want to rant past two hours because everyone's going to switch off, but we've had a really good hour chat here. I feel like me and you could have a chat for ages. So what I was going to say is should. Should you give me the honor, perhaps what we can do is [00:53:00] maybe when there's key articles or key things involved that we want to talk about, maybe we can talk about Chris's open letter.

Stephen Drew: Maybe we can be

Dolunay Dogahan: amazing.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Cause I think that'll be, and then I'm, what I'll do is. I'll hide my ranting bell and I'll hide everything and I won't go off on one about sorry, things I'm passionate about. When you're talking about looking after employees, that's something that's definitely close to home.

Stephen Drew: I think that could be a really great way that we can continue the conversation. And maybe, oh, do you know what as well? We can always like host an event and I can take a back burner and we can get Chris talking and you, and I'll sit back with, and I'll hide the bells. And we can have a nice focused discussion.

Dolunay Dogahan: I think that would be amazing. Yeah, I'm up for a conversation anytime as you can tell,

Stephen Drew: we've got nothing to do but chat in this new world. It feels like sometimes, isn't it? But

Dolunay Dogahan: yeah, I'm

Stephen Drew: just trying to put my bell down without it making too much noise,

Dolunay Dogahan: but look,

Stephen Drew: So for anyone that's not [00:54:00] familiar with involved. And we need to check them out straight away. Where can they find you at the moment?

Dolunay Dogahan: So you can go to involvedmag. com find our online platform where we have our articles. You can get in touch with us through that by emailing us, or, there's a.

Dolunay Dogahan: form to fill. If you have any idea or an article and it's not necessarily just an article, it doesn't have to be ranting and, all always about social things, but you can, it might be an interesting project or interview or any drawing or anything you want write to us. And we will get back to you.

Dolunay Dogahan: Our editorial team are lovely and they will give you references and feedback if you'd like. And, we kind of collaborate in bringing about these articles. So don't get scared if you've never written an article. That's our online platform, but we are also launching an open call for our next issue, next annual issue, which is going to be on the theme of Power.

Dolunay Dogahan: I love the [00:55:00] new theme and I hope it will inspire a lot of people. So in January, we're releasing an open call for people to submit work for this as well. And like I said, articles, visual content, anything. And right now we are doing an open call for the cover image. So this will be the first time we're doing an open call for the cover image.

Dolunay Dogahan: And I think power is such a great theme for this. So yeah, check us out. We're on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, anywhere and everywhere. Probably not on TikTok. I don't know. That's a new generation thing that I haven't jumped into that. In the other ones, you can find us as Involt magazine. So yeah, give us a shout.

Stephen Drew: Super, super cool. Get involved. Absolutely. And on the architectural social, I think we've got a post there, but when we post this up, I will put all the links in there as well. Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your hotel with a [00:56:00] nice view.

Dolunay Dogahan: I can't wait to get out.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. And I'll try and get this up around Christmas Day.

Stephen Drew: Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. Christmasy.

Dolunay Dogahan: I'll try. I love that maybe at the end.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. With me, everything's ish. As in I did it. So I try to live stream every Wednesday ish. Cause real life creeps

Dolunay Dogahan: in.

Stephen Drew: We will get there before then. Thank you so much. Thank you so

Dolunay Dogahan: much. Bye bye. Thank you.