Elevating Designs & Empowering Architects with Technical Guidance, ft. Dieter Bentley-Gockmann at EPR Architects

Empowering Architects with Technical Guidance_ ft_ Dieter Bentley_Gockmann at EPR Architects
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone, it's a Monday special! That's right, you saw me on Friday, you're gonna see me again on this Monday. Have you got your technical drawings ready? Are they pinned up on the wall? If you've been fudging stuff in Revit, we're gonna know about it. Only joking! And you can enjoy your lunch here in the safe zone.

20 seconds.

Hello everyone and welcome to this live stream special. I'm super excited you're here. Now I know you just got back into work. It's a Monday, but [00:01:00] I promise you, I was only joking. This is gonna be easy. This is gonna be a breeze. No one's gonna go. through your technical drawings. Although the guest I'm with actually does know how buildings stand up.

Unlike me. And on that note, I'm going to bring in here the fantastic Dieter Bentley Gockmann, who is Director, does technical services and all that amazing stuff at EPR Architects. Dieter, how are you?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: All right, very well, Stephen, how are you? Good

Stephen Drew: I am good. I'm good. We who would've known that when I was little old part one, knocking around in the EPR kitchens trying to get out of doing work.

You, we, you would be on my podcast someday. So we have met each other before. But for the benefit of those who haven't met you yet, can you first of all tell us who you are?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yes. Hi everybody. I'm Dieter. I'm currently the technical director at EPR Architects. I'm a trust architect by background. And I've also had a law training. So I did a construction law [00:02:00] degree. Several years ago, and that led to a change in my career path from being a job running architect to working more on the technical side.

So I get involved in all sorts, still in project stuff, but supporting designers and project runners to make sure they do their jobs properly and essentially stay on the right side of the law and the right side of gravity to make sure their projects work.

Stephen Drew: That is generally useful, isn't it? And especially when you got part ones and part twos like myself on projects, which could do potential calamities, we need someone would like you around. It's worth also mentioning though, that you do help a lot of people do their part threes within EPR. Is that

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yes. Yeah, that's right. And so I, every year I have a new cohort I take through their part threes and help support and mentor them and give them extra guidance and answer some of the questions that perhaps sometimes the courses or tutors don't fulfill. So hopefully that helps them a little bit along the way, but yeah.

So [00:03:00] every year a new cohort, which is good. Keeps me on my toes.

Stephen Drew: Keeps you on your toes. I never made it to the cohorts. If you're worried, thinking, why the heck is this? Steve never make it as an architect and you're saying you work together. It's just because I never did part three, but I've heard many good things. Now, maybe we can just go, I want to talk all about EPR in a bit, but just before we do that, So you were a job running, you were doing all this stuff then, and when did that idea come around to where you thought, you know what, actually, maybe I enjoy helping the design architects do the design on the, in that supportive role?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yeah, so my formative years of practice were in small and medium sized practices and doing a lot of smaller projects that just ran for a year, maybe two years. And so after I'd done, I'd probably done about 10 projects, I'd been the main job runner on. And believe it or not, I started to get a little bit bored and I thought this, just being shouted at by clients and shouting at [00:04:00] contractors and running constantly for deadlines and things.

I thought there's got to be something a bit more to this job. And I think I got to that stage that a lot of people get to where they think I've done this. What's next? And I enjoyed all the sort of contract admin side of things. And so I thought actually, let's see if there's a role to specialize in that.

And primarily I was thinking maybe move into project management that I know a lot of architects do.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: And then I saw the opportunity to do the constructional master's degree. And so I did that working part time. Studying part time rather whilst working full time, did that for two years and really enjoyed that and really enjoyed the legal side.

So I thought originally that I was going to move more into the legal arbitration, adjudication dispute side of things, did a stint working as an expert witness, which was really great work, really interesting, worked on, some professional negligence cases against architects, which was really good.

But I miss the [00:05:00] people. And I missed the studio environment, so I wanted to move back to working within an architectural studio. And I was lucky enough, I went for an interview at EPR and a role came up to replace the then existing director. And so I got that opportunity, so then moved back into large practice and then it was just a thing of sharing what I'd learned, my experience with all the architects and I really enjoyed it.

And now I've been doing it for nearly 17 years.

Stephen Drew: You're doing well, you're doing well. You couldn't save me, no one can, but you're doing really well. I joke around. Thing is though because I went straight into industry at EPR. So for me, the idea of a tech, I learned about your team, and it was there on support, and you would help everyone from, Director level on the projects when I don't know, there's some big things going on to helping me out learn stuff as well.

So it was a great resource, but I didn't know. I thought that was normal in every architecture practice because I hadn't [00:06:00] been out there. And so it was interesting to learn. That technical services wasn't in other architectural practices. So how do you even get that going back then? Did it start formulating when people were coming to you in the office and then you sat with the board at EPR and went, listen, I think we could do something

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yeah I was fortunate because it was a team that had been set up before I joined the practice. And so it had been there for many years already. So it was already established as a team, but I think when it was originally set up, it was. Primarily just about a team of people writing specifications. And when I joined, it was looking at we can do more than this.

We can provide more support. So having come from small and medium practices where that level of support wasn't there, I knew what it was like thinking, I need to turn somebody. I need to ask a question and who should I ask? And so it seemed an obvious thing. So we'll. If we've this central resource, [00:07:00] if we've got this team of people with different experiences, different perspectives, different knowledge bases, we could be really helpful.

To then provide that in house support. And it, yeah, it's, I think everybody that has worked or does work at EPR, I hope values what we do. And certainly I've heard similar stories to yours, Stephen, where people have said, how did we ever do this without you? And then when they leave EPR and go somewhere else and a team like ours doesn't exist, they'd be like, Oh, what do we do now?

God's standard are only two feet.

Stephen Drew: Do you ever get messages from ex colleagues that go asking you one or two cheeky questions?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: I have occasionally. Yes.

Stephen Drew: You didn't get one from me, but

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: shan't tell you how I answer them though.

Stephen Drew: Yeah we'll leave that. We'll leave that to the imagination. Maybe while we were on the topic of EPR, I'll bring quickly up the website for anyone that's not familiar with EPR. I was there as a part one and a part two. I did really enjoy it. I do think it's a good practice.

However, you've moved now. [00:08:00] To this really fancy new London studio, which I did wasn't privy to but that's okay. I'm getting older now. It's all good. So this is the new studio, right? In a roundabout way. When was that set up, Dieter? Have you been in there for a year now with

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yeah, just over a year. So we moved in December 2022. And yeah, we've been really lucky. It's the, it's a former orphanage that was converted to the Imperial War Museums Archive building. But they had a new building designed for their archive, which is now out the back. So this building was empty and they were quite restrictive about who they were prepared to sell the building to.

Stephen Drew: right.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: but we were lucky that when they heard we were interested, we were able to get a long lease, I think 150 year lease on building. So that enabled us then to go in completely retrofit the whole thing. It was a dreadful. 70s fit out on awful floors and suspense scenes when we stripped [00:09:00] it all out, we found some amazing, beautiful original tile floors.

There's a, I think you've got the image just coming up the original timber structure in the main hall, which was the original dining hall, which is now our events and hub space. Yeah it's a beautiful building. And the team that's worked on it have done a fantastic job and it's a great space to work in.

Stephen Drew: It is because it seems really nice and I seem to remember you are at the top there, Dito. Is that right in the building at the moment?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yes.

Stephen Drew: that position by any chance? Yeah,

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: To get a good spot.

Stephen Drew: I think after 17 years you're allowed to do that. It, to me, I think it's great. I was down there there was a blip with the emails after I left, I promise I didn't do anything.

Chris and Ben don't sack me yet, it's a beautiful office. Everything works. Everything's cool. And I do think it's worth showing actually, isn't it? Cause I do think that. An architect, the best thing you can do one of the best things is to design the place where you're working every day.[00:10:00]

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yeah, and like I say, I mean it's not, it wasn't an easy job for the team that worked on it because of course, can you imagine, you're working on the design. of a building where, there's going to be 200 other people all with a view and opinion on what you're doing and whether it's right or wrong.

So they put up with a lot, but they've done a tremendous job. And I think everyone would agree. It's a great space to work in, and it's brilliant because it's got the right balance between open studio space for communication, collaboration and all that, but balanced enough that it's not just one big cavernous space and it's got personality.

So yeah, really nice.

Stephen Drew: I love it. Okay. And I think everyone should check it out. It is worth seeing. Data's in the top on the, one of the wings up there, a well deserved after these years. Now I want to just touch upon the other thing as well, is because while you've done this, it's important to talk about all your involvement with the ROBA and all that stuff.

Now, at the time, I seem to remember you when I was way back when introducing you like, Oh, we're testing with the [00:11:00] ROBA, the new stages. And I was like, I don't really understand that, but you did, you helped co author them 0 to 7. Oh, I shouldn't say this live because it's out there, but okay. It's the truth.

I was like, I don't understand that. Before it was D, E, and F. Where I'm going with, you do have an active role with the RIBA and I was at one of your book events the other night. So if EPR isn't enough, you're doing all this stuff as well. Where do you get the time and the drive to write these books?

That's what I wanted to say.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: An important part of my job and the job of my team is to, in a way, be one step ahead of what's going on in industry, because we can't possibly support all our colleagues if we don't know what's going on. And so that's in part why I started to get involved with the executive team, the RIBA.

To help them understand from a member's perspective, what we need the RIBA to be doing.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: And then out of that work, they, I was [00:12:00] invited to join their regulation standards group, which I then eventually ended up chairing. And so it was trying to bring the sort of members technical expertise to the Institute to help inform their policy and guidance and what they were doing.

And one piece of work that came out of that was realization that although there's lots of health and safety guidance. Out there for architects and designers, none had been produced from an architect or designer's perspective. And there was lots of stuff that was, although it's going to be useful, it missed a lot of things that we do and that we need to know.

And that's where the health and safety guide originally came from, because it was more than just CDM health and safety. It was more about what do you do if you're going on site for the first time? What do you need to know about visiting sites, particularly those? That aren't construction sites, we all do site surveys and all that sort of stuff.

So that's where the idea came from. Then Grenfell happened. And so there was the discussion about actually this guide needs to be more than just about site visits. It needs [00:13:00] to be about health and safety in the broader context. So that's why we then introduced a piece about the CDM, about fire safety and about legislation. And then with The HACCP report, and then the latest change in regulations and the Building Safety Act, and the change to the building regs, there was then a view of actually, we need to go beyond just health and safety. We need to look at principal designers and what's principal designers going to do under the new regulations.

And that's then where. This second guide has come out of. So yeah, I had the tough job of sitting down in August. Once the legislation was published to try and quickly digest it, understand it, to get this written, to get it to publishers, to make it, get it to the market as quick as possible. So it, yeah it's been a challenge.

I say, it's definitely been a challenge, but it's not just me. There's been a great team working with a lot of my colleagues at EPR. There's a lot of people at RIBA. There's lots of people, other architects. have advised, had input. So although my name's on the cover, it's a [00:14:00] collective effort. So there's been a lot of people that have helped me along the way.

Stephen Drew: Nice. That's one of the feelings I always got from your team. It wasn't like there was proprietary stuff. It wasn't like you're hiding it. You actually do all jokes aside, you do want to help and share. So I'm really pleased to see that this book is out there in, in the wild. And, I think at EPR, the technical services team, it does make a big difference and I can see why.

The day goes quick, you're involved in all these cool projects. What I was going to ask you, Dieter, is it would be really good. There's a few people probably out there, small architecture practices or that maybe they don't have that function. And I was going to, I was going to wonder, if you have any tips for people and where to look for this information, if they don't have the resources on the EPR, or is there any things that you always try to share?

A little bit of advice to architects that could be useful in that pursuit of that information. If they don't have a D a technical services team.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: I think life in that respect has got a lot easier with the advent of the internet and social media, [00:15:00] because yes, I started work before the internet existed, which might be a shock to a lot of people. We did manage, but it was a lot harder. But no, seriously, there's a lot of information out there. I think it's mainly.

Being aware of what you need to know. It's just being up to date with what's going on in industry, reading the journals, seeing what's out there and being inquisitive. When you see something you don't know something about, have a look. There's always people talking about this. If you're an RBA member, there's lots of professional features.

People like myself, we're writing to share information. You're being on LinkedIn. There's lots of people sharing their expertise and posting about what's going on. All those sorts of. Avenues, but I think it's mainly look for, understand what you like to engage with. Because one of the things that my team doing is always trying to say how do we engage people differently?

Some people like to read stuff. Some people like to listen to something. Some people want to see it visually in terms of diagrams and [00:16:00] pictures. So it's find the medium that works best for you and then tap into the source. And keep up to date. It's applying time and energy and effort, but it rewards itself.

The more, every day's different. Things are always changing, but that's what makes life exciting. That's what makes, I think, being an architect and a designer exciting. It's always different.

Stephen Drew: makes complete sense. Ollie actually says, yeah, we're a small we lack resources. So maybe some of the stuff that you said that data can really help. Now again, I'm rumbling myself here. When I was a part one, I used to go to the CPDs at EPR and they were actually decent, most of them, right? There was one or two that, it was a product I didn't understand.

And I went because prep was out and it was the good sandwiches. There was good CPDs there at EPR. Now I'm beginning to learn more about the CPDs. Some architects have been, so consumed with projects, they rush in to get the CPD points at the end of the year and all that stuff as well.

Just building upon what you said in terms of CPDs, what, do you have any advice for people on how to do [00:17:00] that? Is it better to get like structure it through the year so that you get the stuff you need and not cram it at the end? Or would you have any thoughts on that?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: I think it's quality rather than quantity. Is the important thing. When I did some work with the ARB, when they were looking at their competence criteria for architects, and one of the things I stressed a lot was don't have a time limit on it because time isn't important. It's the quality of what you do.

And I think it's certainly make sure what you do is relevant to the work you're doing and saying that's main thing. And if you can plan what you need to do, whether that's over a six week period, six month period, six year period, it doesn't really matter. But I think if you're conscious about knowing what you need to do, then it's much easier to program it in.

And also don't feel it has to be hours and hours of work. It can just be small little bits and pieces. To punt my books again, I've written them specifically so they're easy to drop in and out. You don't have to sit down and read it cover to cover. You can [00:18:00] dip in and out. You can read the chapters in different orders.

You can just look at what you need when you need it. So it's finding those sorts of resources. And again, like I said earlier, find what works for you. There's lots of content on LinkedIn where you can just watch stuff on it. If you're on a short commute, that it all counts, if it's just picking up a journal, reading online stuff, it all counts as long as it's valuable and it's a good quality.

I think that's the main thing.

Stephen Drew: Maybe this even counts then. So it's like a point for you. A negative point that I'm on it. Somewhere in the middle. It's a point. Massive good idea. Maybe on the Architecture Social. We're coming for you, RIBA with the CPDs. I'm only joking. Actually, I was on the RIBA council. CPDs should be everywhere, isn't it?

I think the more and more information you have, and that's a really good point that you can plug all these in. I think that's

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: And every time you're learning something new, that's CPD. People tend to forget that and people tend to undervalue a lot of what they're doing. For every project, there's always [00:19:00] something different. You'll always be doing some element of research, reading, that all counts.

Stephen Drew: Good. That's, that's a good tip there. What I was going to say while I've got you here, I wanted to ask you about part three, because you've been helping people on part three for many years, whether it was my old friends Dan Medeiros and Barry Higgins back in the day, I just never made it with them.

Barry still gives me grief about that. Where I'm going is the course has probably changed a lot over the years, or maybe You might tell me it hasn't, but for now, someone doing their part three, maybe not who, again, who doesn't have access to you helping them out and stuff. Is there any advice you give people who are doing their part three in 2023, 2024?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: yeah, the context is still the same, what constitutes being professional hasn't changed, but how we do it has. So I think in terms of when you're studying for part three, whether you do it. Now, whether you the future, when you've done it in the past the environment will be the same. You need to understand the law.

You [00:20:00] need to understand ethical behavior. You need to understand what's involved in putting a project together to make sure it works effectively. The time cost quality triangle, that's not ever going to change, but the way we do it, the processes have. Like I was talking about earlier, before it would have been all books and paper.

Now it's all digital and online, but the, what we're trying to achieve is still essentially the same. So I think, and this is what I say to all my part threes, once you've got the principles, think about how that applies to the work that you've already done and the work that you're doing, because it's a lot of, it's about context and a lot of what you do at part three, you've probably been doing already.

You just didn't realize why you were doing it. And so it's bringing that conscious thought to the processes that you've probably been seeing and doing for a lot of time anyway.

Stephen Drew: Very cool. Makes complete sense. I, the other thing I was going to ask, cause we're talking about career part, do you need part two, [00:21:00] part three is a big move. I joke around, but the reason I didn't do my part three is cause I was like. Similar, but I went a slightly different way is that I was like, I don't see myself as a job running an architect.

I want to do something differently. So you've done profound stuff. You're doing books. And I, when I left, I wanted the money, right? And that's what I wanted. I was like, I'm going to go into sales. And it's worked out in a different way. Haven't been as rich as I wanted, but enjoyed it along the way. Where I'm going with this though, is that sometimes people feel that.

Feel like they might want to do different things and one of the technical services team is more like a supporting act, isn't it? It's like people who have that experience that can help a design architect to do things. What do you look for on your team when you're hiring someone? Who do you think fits in that role well, you don't want someone like me, but what kind of person do you look for when you're hiring for this team?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: I think the primary thing is [00:22:00] the want and the enjoyment of sharing knowledge. And collaborating with others. It sounds a bit daft because I think as architects generally, that's what we do anyway, but I think it's the wanting to share, the wanting to help, the mentoring aspect of what we do is extremely rewarding.

And also enjoying the challenge of the unexpected. One of the beauties of architecture and a career in the construction industry generally is it's so diverse and there's so many different opportunities to do different things, but working in a team like mine, particularly because we work with, nearly 200 designers, you just don't know every day what somebody is going to need, what question is going to arise what the requirement for the day is, and no matter how well you plan your day, it always goes differently.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: But that's what it's exciting, and it's people that enjoy that's the element of the unexpected, but within the safety net of a framework of this has got to be done in a certain way. [00:23:00] We've got to have bring certainty to a uncertain world. How do we do that? And how do we support those that are on the cold face of job running to do the best that they can?

Stephen Drew: It makes complete sense. You know what I was thinking though, when you were speaking as well, because every day is different. And I imagine sometimes you get critical stuff. Now, obviously you can't say specific information and you can be a bit fuzzy about confirm or deny, like sometimes the president, they are like 20 minutes away from saving the world because it was going to be a nuclear explosion.

Have the stakes ever got pretty very high? On your desk with all this legal stuff and projects where you've had to come in and save the day.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: I don't know whether I'm grateful or disappointed that it's not that exciting, which is a good thing, but maybe not but yeah, there are, we, everybody that's been job running knows you face crisis points where You know, a client might be going up the wall, something might be going horribly wrong on site.

There [00:24:00] are high stressful situations and there are occasions where I've been able to support the team and to help fix something or sort something out to avoid, the worst repercussions. But the reality is things will always go wrong on projects. That's life and it's understanding that and accepting that.

And I think probably one of the greatest strengths of my team is to be able to give people that chance to just take a step back and to realign their perspectives and look again at the horizon and say, actually, what's going on isn't that important. Everything can be fixed. Everything can be sorted out, and as long as what's happening doesn't endanger somebody's health and safety, it doesn't result in somebody having an injury.

Obviously that's a critical moment, but most stuff we do. It can be fixed. It can be sorted out. Yeah there's been some exciting things and some fairly major things that have gone wrong that we've sorted. But yeah, nuclear war. Don't think we go near that. Fortunately,[00:25:00]

Stephen Drew: Fair. Fair enough. I accidentally submitted the Ramburu project back in the day with missing out a whole floor and I'm sure in Pascal's world, that was pretty nuclear at the time. But luckily it didn't

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: but did the world end? Nobody died.

Stephen Drew: No, I just resubmitted it, but there was like an hour where I just was like I just can't do this anymore.

It was one of them, but great story now, but I, I'll have to, we'll have, I, the buildings there, the buildings there is really nice. So it's all worked out really

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: And we all have those. And the thing is, I think we all have those experiences in life, and one of the pleasures of my job is being able to share. My learning from my experience to help somebody else to either avoid that going wrong or to help them get space there. Okay, we can sort this out. We can work on this together.

You're not alone.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no fair enough. Now, again, I joke, but it's part true that while I don't know the ins and outs of everything you do, I don't want to, not a pointed question, but it's the start of 2024. It's [00:26:00] February. And I just wanted to know what your outlook in the industry is at the moment. Do you feel, because I was detecting this a little bit of positivity, people are waiting for the interest rate to drop and stuff.

Are you feeling optimistic going into 2024 at the moment, or have you got a lot of work ahead of you this year?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yeah, I think so. I think there's still some dust to settle on 22. There was a lot of change last year in terms of economy. And I think. From my perspective, the introduction of the Building Safety Act, the changes to the building regulations, that's created a lot of uncertainty. But I think we're starting to see the dust settle on that.

People are getting used to the idea. Yes, I think the economy's getting better. I think a lot will depend on what happens with the general election. A, when that happens, and then B, what happens as a consequence. But hopefully that will be a positive thing as well. So I think, yeah, I think at this stage in the year the jury's still out.

But I'm, I am a natural optimist. So I think it's going to be a good year.

Stephen Drew: Are you? My partner described me as [00:27:00] optimistically pessimistic, so there you go. So that, that, that's apparently what it is. I was going to ask you one more question, actually. Because the, this year We're seeing AI more prevalent within the industry. And it was an interesting thought I had because part of what you do is you're a resource there for people, all this stuff, but now we're starting to see the blur into projects.

You starting to see the bits and bobs maybe of chat GPT using AI. I use it in my business all the time to try and do the mundane stuff to get that out of the way. What's your thoughts about. AI being involved in projects. Is it a good thing, but maybe something you need to manage, or is it something that you think we have to be careful of, Dieter?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: I I think it's like all things in life, there's opportunities and there's risks associated with it. I think you hit the nail on head when you say you get it to do the mundane things. What's something that surprised me a lot. It seems that architects and designers are looking at [00:28:00] AI to design and be creative.

And I don't understand that. Why aren't we looking at it to do the schedules, the specifications, all the nuts and bolts, the technical compliance, essentially the stuff that I help with, I see a great opportunity for, chat DBG to do my job for me. To do all that stuff. So then I can concentrate on the unusual stuff, the innovation, the research, the exciting stuff, the looking forward to the future.

And I think that's the greatest asset. It could take a lot of the workload off us.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: of the drudgery, the day to day compliance stuff, which then frees us up to do the stuff we all enjoy, the creative bit, the designing bit.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, because, there's two bits in that because back in the old days, remember we used to have the minute book and I used to use it religiously because that was an important document. However with the way AI is going and stuff now, you can basically record and get it to minute a whole [00:29:00] meeting.

And I think it does a pretty damn good job of it because it, it sucks it all in. And it's stuff like that where I think it could be really useful, but I wanted to see if you agreed that's a good

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yeah, I think there is certainly an opportunity there and I agree, but I think the danger potentially is that there is a process that you go through when you, to use your example of doing where you digest and reflect. On conversations that have happened that cement and solidify that knowledge and the idea of this is what we do next.

The danger of AI is it does all that for you. So you miss a whole step of analysis and thought. It speeds the process up and therefore you could very quickly race towards the wrong answer. Because you haven't had the time for reflection and I've seen that a lot already with just the digital technology that we have, there's a constant expectation that [00:30:00] we're going to produce more, we're going to produce more quickly, and it just becomes a race against time and a push for quantity rather than quality and stopping and saying, actually, there's a better way of doing this, there's a more efficient way of doing this.

And actually it's going to end up with a better result if we just stop and reflect for a moment. And that's my only concern

We forget we're human and we do need a bit more time and we do need to stop and reflect. And actually we need to just talk to each other a bit more about what the right thing or the next thing should be rather than letting the technology decide for us.

Stephen Drew: Well said. Fair enough. I'll dust off my ovals. My old book and pen I joke around, you're right though, there is something about connecting pen to paper, which is really thoughtful Karen Fruga, which does coaching for, and for directors or leaders, actually, she has a journal and she gave me one and I started using it cause she said [00:31:00] it didn't apply to any business, but it, she tailored it a little bit for architects and actually when you're writing stuff, it makes you think, isn't it?

And that was the point.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: And I think it's all too easy currently when we are under so much pressure. It's so easy not to make that time. And I think it's important every day you have time to just stop, think, reflect. It's often people come to me that, oh, I need to do this and I need to do that. And I'm like, hang on, you don't. Wait, sleep on it, think about it, come fresh in the morning, then think about it again. And nine times out of ten, you've probably thought of, your subconscious does the work for you in the night, and you come up with a much better solution in the morning. So that whole thing of just rushing all the time.

Easy for me to say. But not so easy to put into practice, but I think it's an important skill to develop, to get that, to just make that space for yourself, to make sure you do the right thing.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Fair enough. And if I was, the only reason I was slightly giggling in the background there is because [00:32:00] Ollie Sanger says, shout out to chat DBG. So we just need to script you Dieter and charge a subscription fee and you'll be a millionaire.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: If anybody's, any, if anybody's out there's any good with the coding, I'm happy to, we could do a joint effort on this.

Stephen Drew: You

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: It's got to be a future in it. This could be my retirement fund.

Stephen Drew: You could put your book in and then optimize results and who knows, you've got enough on your plate anyways. I know you're busy. But before you go, I always like to ask my guests if they have one or two questions for me and you have the added benefit or detriment whichever way you're looking at it.

You've had to even deal with me for 12 years or something now. Would you like to ask me a question on a live

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: I just want to, you've mentioned, obviously you worked at EPR and then you took a change. in direction in your career. If you were to live your life again, do you think you would make that same decision? Would you make a different decision? Looking back on, now you can see what's [00:33:00] happened to the profession.

Since you moved out of frontline job running,

Stephen Drew: Yeah,

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: you do anything different? Do you think

Stephen Drew: no I always say I'd do it all again. And I think the architecture education, wherever you apply it to, I think the way I look at business, everything, it comes from that and it comes from working in practice. So I always show, I don't design a building, the architecture social functioning business, and that's how I approach it.

And. Really, without the experience of EPR, I don't know if I would be as successful as I am now. Did I enjoy doing the drawings when I was there? No, it was something missing, and the way it was weird in EPR is that I always joke about Barry Higgins, right? And he was there and he sat down with me.

I think Scott was away, he was one of the team leaders there at the time. Barry sat down and he gave me a task on the roofs. I didn't have a clue what I was doing. Looking at the book, I should have come over to your team. Really too

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: would have made sense? Yeah.

Stephen Drew: to. Be passionate about it, Steve. You've got to work it out. And I looked at him and I [00:34:00] went, Barry, I'm just not passionate about it. And then I went, I'm not passionate about it. And I was like, I've got to get another job or do something, and that was the moment. And where I'm going with this is architecture is an amazing profession.

You just got to have that passion. thing to keep going because it's hard. It's a hard job. That's why I think architects are amazing people. They do so much to get these buildings built like yourself. You overcome all these problems, all these fire, all this stuff. This is such an amazing job, but to keep going in all that adversity and all that challenges.

You gotta be passionate about it. And if you aren't, I think you can apply the skills elsewhere. So that's what I did. And I literally rocked up to a recruiter and went, I'm gonna look for a job. And they're like, oh, you're a chatterbox. And I was like, I'm in. I don't care anymore. But does that make sense in one way?

Answer your question. All the skills you learn in architecture, I think is so important and very transferrable. Look at it like you, last thing before we go, I say is. In architecture, you learn how to pitch projects. It's really important. Public speaking. [00:35:00] Some people are very good at writing things, just like journalist skills, it's highly analytical, highly mathematical, highly designed spatial awareness off the chart.

So architects have this massive skill stack, which for some reason we're not proud about, so I think we need to just remind ourselves all the

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. It's interesting because people ask me the same question. Do I miss project running? And I answer a very similar thing. I said, no, cause I'm still, although I'm not on the cold face of doing it, I'm working with so many people are, and I'm still contributing to that process.

I'm still enjoying it and being part of it.

Stephen Drew: And I think you can add more in a bizarre way. I think when you do that, because I think bizarrely me running around like a mad box of frogs in the Architecture Social, it's probably more value in the industry. And yes, it's the commercial side of it, but also, RIBA president's campaign and Maya got to the office.

Did I [00:36:00] know at the time that would happen? No, but you can do more of this stuff. So I always encourage people to do that. And probably on that note, if people are interested in learning more about moving sideways careers, if you're interested in sales. Come on down if you're interested in helping architects build buildings, then you're probably a good place to speak to at that point on that note, though, if someone wants to ask about EPR, if they want to learn more about yourself, if they want to look, learn about the books, all that stuff, data, where do people find you?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Here, there and everywhere, it seems at

Stephen Drew: around chat

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, so feel free to connect and mess with me on LinkedIn or my email address. I don't know whether you've pinged it up anywhere,

Stephen Drew: Oh, I, I.

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: can get me at EPR.

Stephen Drew: going to wait to see if you said, because I don't want to dox you on GDPR or anything, but you're around, you're on EPR and you're happy to share your email then?

Dieter Bentley-Gockmann: Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Stephen Drew: Okay, I'll put it in the link afterwards. [00:37:00] Thank you so much, Dieter, for being here, being there, being here, being everywhere.

As you say, people should reach out to you. I really appreciate your time. Stay on the stage, Dieter, for one more minute while I close this down. But thank you in the audience. Hopefully this has been useful. If you'd like to endure me to get through all the data stuff, then well done you and reach out to him and check out his books as well.

And also EPR's office is not bad. Maybe you can knock on the door. Maybe they'll let you in. I'm sure actually really friendly bunch. So I'm sure it'd be fine. More content coming soon. I don't know what it is, but more content coming soon. Thank you so much. Have a lovely Monday. Take care, everyone.

Bye bye now.