From Architecture to Recruitment: A Deep Dive with Stephen Drew
A Guest Session on The Architect Project with Sarah Lebner
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Sarah Lebner: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody. Welcome everyone. Who's joining us live tonight. I'm glad a lot of you remembered about the time change and welcome also to everyone catching the replay. And this one's going to be shared on Stephen's network as well. So welcome to everyone. Who's also listening in on that one.
As usual, I'm a hosting from Canberra tonight, which is not all country and I acknowledged the traditional elders past, present and emerging. And it's very exciting to welcome Stephen Drew. Thank you for joining us, Stephen.
Stephen Drew: Hey, good to be here, Sarah and lovely to see you again. And
Sarah Lebner: you can see it's lovely daylight, daytime, where Steven is, where exactly I use
Stephen Drew: Stephen I'm in London.
I'm in London right now. They're about to do a lockdown soon. Don't worry. You've have all my virtual time so we can jump into. We've
Sarah Lebner: got a lot of Melbournians in the group, so yeah, there'll be a lot of sympathies there. I'm not sure if you've heard, but the [00:01:00] Melburnians are in well, Victorians really are very harsh locked down.
Yeah, the rest of us are still living the dream at the moment. So that's great. Can we start your background and you started off as an architect and then how you segwayed into what you're doing
Stephen Drew: now? Yeah, sure. So I have a degree in the Poma narcotic SRE in the UK. So that's part, that's called part one, part two.
I worked in industry for a few years and I decided on one day that I felt like going into recruitment. I felt like doing something a little bit different. My career. So the skill sets that I really enjoyed, so I always enjoy pitching presenting. I really valued what I did in terms of detailing and all that in terms of professional practice.
But that, wasn't where I felt my affinity was. So I worked in recruitment. I have worked in recruitment for by six years. I joined a big company called bespoke careers. I think they have a, they have an Australian office, so you guys will know them really good company. And then I sat my own recruitment company and now I [00:02:00] run an architectural division in a large property recruitment consultancy.
So what that means in terms of. What I do on a day-to-day basis, I will work with clients such as have a work studio started. So I did, I worked with Brinshore in Australia, Cox architecture, a Western Williamson. I think there's a few that those are the few that I've worked in terms of Australia. So they are the kind of client.
Yeah. They're the kind of clients that I would typically work for and they will say they will give me a brief. So with Grimshaw, I'd have a brief in particular. And why, what is about is finding the right person for the role. And the right architect of the right BIM Manager, whatever it may be. So a lot of my time is on that matchmaking process and that comes from going through people's CVS and portfolios, but more importantly, meeting the person and getting a feel for them, what they're about and where they're going, because that's good recruitment is listening to where people are at in their career and working it out.
So for instance, [00:03:00] Sarah, you have a child right now. You might, if you were working in a practice with lots and lots of hours, it's about having an honest conversation about where you want to go. And then once you've got that, it's about matchmaking, the CV in portfolio, in your LinkedIn, and a few of the topics we're going to discuss today to.
Focus on the direction you want to go. The half of it can be also working out what direction you want to go into. And then sometimes when you're in practice, you don't necessarily know that. And it's that process of experimentation and putting yourself out there and sometimes go into interviews.
You learn that you don't want to work for a certain company, and then you have an affinity with another that you might not have had before. So in short, that's what I do that's my focus. And I enjoy it. It's a bit crazy at times, especially now with coronavirus, that is a whole new world and we can talk about how, I guess we all have to change right now and how to adapt to the current [00:04:00] situation, to find jobs and to better ourselves.
Sarah Lebner: Yeah, absolutely. We would, we will definitely get to that. W was it. Was it a hard decision for you to not really leave architecture, but to translate it into something really different or did it feel quite
Stephen Drew: natural? Do you know what I ever friends? Chris was there. He's actually the peer manager for Grimshaw and he was the chap at the time.
He worked at the same company as me. And I remember at the time I I got a picture, but I'm not too sure this is for me. And that was a bit of a scary decision at the time, because you know you through so many years of it and basically it was building up to being qualified and I decided it wasn't right for me.
And I felt a bit like a black sheep at the time, because, you speak to one or two friends and they're like, what? And you got a degree in diploma and you've done years in it. And it was a bit crazy. What I would say is because I'm from Architecture. I do care about my reputation. I do care about what you can do in recruitment, because [00:05:00] recruitment, the truth is, and where I speak with friends yet you get really good recruiters and you get bad recruiters.
And some people can work into the industry and they can be very money orientated. And the truth is you can push people into jobs and that person will be renumerated for it. But what I find is that by pushing people into jobs, which are not a very good fit things fall through and you become that guy and they'd be like, oh, Sarah, do you ever buy that?
Stephen Drew, he got me into this job. He said, this company was like this, and it's not like that. So to me, it's about doing it the right way. And so to answer your question, I would never predict it. I went into recruitment when I was studying. It just, it happened organically time and place and thinking hard about what I want.
And and that's why I moved into. So I'm good at talking live in Sarah. I
Sarah Lebner: think that's really useful to hear, because there's all this pressure to know what you want to do, where you want to go when you graduate. And I'm not sure if Tara Cole, she's also over your way. From AKI [00:06:00] English, she was a landscape architect and then also a teacher and diverged into teaching architects, English, essentially.
And yeah, we've shared that similar thing. I don't think any knowledge is lost knowledge. I think you can always hone it into something unique and interest.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Just to add to that point briefly the skills I learned in architectural school, no doubt helped me out now, pitch and presentations.
And then obviously the industry experience is essential. And to add that, we can talk about how to be the best architect here, but those skills are definitely transferable. And just like you said, I know so many people that have gone into marketing communications or I know someone that I was not taking now runs their own restaurant with a kind of a unique spin on it.
There's so much you can do. And I love the idea. You should be proud of it too. I still feel involved in architecture. And that's the point it's never like you are one that you're not, we're all in that field. So definitely worth mentioning that to your guys, because if someone has [00:07:00] that passion for journalism might be worth looking into it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Lebner: Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Our fortnightly theme this, for that Stephen is resumes and portfolios, and I think it's important to note whether, some members of the group coming at that from a first job seeking kind of angle. Others might be coming at it from transitioning from their current job into a better job.
And then others might be quite settled or doing their own thing and actually looking at it and thinking about it more from a finding clients and networking opportunity. So my first question was what do you think are the most common mistakes that young architects make on their portfolios and resumes?
Stephen Drew: Really good question. So the first thing that says that this scream there's no a hundred percent right. Way wrong way, checklists to do a CV or not. It's got a bit come from your personality. So that's number one, always try to get your personality across. There's just a few goods suggestions.[00:08:00]
And a lot of the things that I like to focus on is about in this busy world, especially now you really have to get. The point across of who you are, what you're about, what you're looking for really quickly. So all the kind of points that I'm talking about is FEMA upon that. So it's, so when you're doing a CV, always think about, am I communicating what I'm looking for?
Am I communicating the skillset I have and I might communicate in my value, am I communicating with my contact details? So the whole mission on a CV and portfolio, of course you want to wow. Someone and that will come from your work and how you display that. But stuff like algebra legibility, this CV needs to be a good file size.
It needs to be easy to read and it, and we need to get the point across of who you are and what you're about in five to 10 seconds. And so that's the way I would look at it. It's less, I'm less interested in talking about, okay, use this font, use this size. Okay. Because there's so [00:09:00] many variables and it's like you as a designer in terms of architecture, you're going to have your own junior say quiet.
You can have your own spin on it. Much like you'd hit your own projects, but it's exactly the same thing. As when you're designing for a client, they need to understand that idea. They need to get excited by it and they need to understand it quickly. So when you're doing a CV, make sure a few quick things is you don't want it too long.
You don't want it to exhaust people. You want it a nicer thing size, maybe one or two pages. And it needs to be really clear a way back when there's always a good place to start. You don't, it's like anything else you don't want to overload someone with too much information, and you don't want too little.
And so it's about getting the balance. And can you read the font? Can you do have you put all the relevant work experience and the order stuff you always want to put your most recent. Whether it's academic work or professional skill points as a skill set at the front and experience. And if you haven't worked [00:10:00] in architecture yet, that's absolutely fine as well.
I worked in Waitrose, which is like a big supermarket in the UK. It's really important to mention this stuff because I was dealing with some really lovely customers. And then you might get some difficult customers, right? And that's all really good experience. You might know, you need to flush out too much responsibilities of how much I work the tails.
But to just to say, I worked in it, I had customer service, I got involved with databases, Excel, money, business. That's good. You can cover them pints and any work experience that you've done, which is in the creative fringe of Architectural, which may not be Architectural. So with various artwork or competitions should have put all that stuff in.
If you have experienced in an architecture practice, that's what you want to hone in on. And you will talk about the project. You talk about the sectors and you talk about the soft. That's generally the way I would go about it. And it's so when you've got stuff like software in your CV as well, try to be [00:11:00] very literal with things.
So say now Sarah is the employer. I want to work with Sarah's architectural practice. I will try to be clear and succinct as possible. So the kind of the mission in my CV is I'd want to get across to Sarah really quickly that I am a part of Architectural Assistant I'm available in London. I have four weeks notice here's my contact details on the top, my mobile number, my address, everything.
And then the mission statement I would have not long, quite succinct. So I am Stephen Drew. I'm a part of Architectural Assistant. I'm looking for a new job. I've got two to three years experience at EPR architects working on residential projects, using MicroStation and rabbits and RIBA stages two to four.
So RIBA stages. The stages of the building are in the UK. You would have your equivalent in the area. So the point was, so Sarah immediately knows what level I'm at, what software I've used and what experience I've had in industry. If you're a [00:12:00] student, it's the same thing. I'm an architectural graduate. I just graduated with a two, one or a predicted to one.
I have used this certain softwares I'm available immediately. And I'm looking in the Melbourne area. Here are my contact details. I would love to hear from you. And then from there you go into it and you have a bit more detail. That's my philosophy and theory about it. If you think at some point, it isn't clear, then that's where you need to go back and always give you a CV to your mom and all this stuff, and always think about whether they can understand that.
So mom's not going to understand what module two was in university and that You more you're trying to get across is something that everyone can read quite quickly and easily. And if you're in, if you can get that feedback, then you're halfway there.
Sarah Lebner: Yeah. Yeah. I always find it a double-edged sword because I think some people would be horrified if they knew how quickly you get judged as a piece of paper from an employer.
When I'm flicking through candidates, I'll [00:13:00] form an opinion very quickly and often it's not even what they've said, but how they've said it, is it tidy and aligned and presented? No probably not great attention to detail, but then on the flip side when you've got your final list of who you're looking for, you are really a scrutinizing that detail.
And the number of I think my really big pet hates Stephen is that a lot of young architects would do their resume and portfolio in a program like in design. Which doesn't have a good spell check function built in. And you just get the list spellchecks so I'm always hounding everyone on using something like Grammarly to check it over and get someone to read it and cause you're presenting the best of yourself.
There's really, I don't think there's any excuse to have spell checks in there. I liked your little example about the cover statement. Cause I think that's something that varies a lot and can be used really differently. I was keen on professional photos. Where they're having a, I feel quite strongly, you should have a photo that makes eye contact.
It looks professional, [00:14:00] but maybe that's just me.
Stephen Drew: Again, I think if there is a certain level of subjectivity and tastes with it, because I've heard two sides of the stories and I bounce back between my opinion changes on a day-to-day basis. And I think when I see a really good example of like you say a really professional picture and the eye contact stance and was friendly, I'm like, oh yeah, brilliant.
This is great because I've got a feel for the person. And I wanted to invite them in. I think he can completely go the other way as well. So if you don't, if your pixel is on flat, or it's a bit like, Hey, here's me in front of the shot. Yeah. Then it goes the other way. And you're like, oh, I I don't know.
So what you gotta to be careful with pitchers is that they can form a bias and that can be a bias, which goes in your favor or a gain. So they're a bit like a delicate art. I would say, use a picture when you feel confident or maybe you've had feedback on the pictures. Good. A professional from a few people before doing it because people can make assumptions.[00:15:00]
We were in the real world. And sometimes there's, sometimes people have a bias towards it. Most architects, most people, everyone good people, you just will find in life that there are certain prejudices. And I think that sometimes that can come up and that's the truth, so it could be religion, it could be ethnicity.
So that's where you gotta be careful. I know a lot of employers and also, like you said, a good example of, for it's actually got people and in that view, so on the flip side, I've seen it work really well. They're like, oh yeah, I need a fun, bubbly person on my team. I've also seen in the UK examples where it can get.
People won't get the job. Cause technically employers you can't be ageist, you can't be sexist. And some, most of them aren't, it just does happen. Sometimes that's people form and biases that they don't even know. They
Sarah Lebner: have. Ah yeah. We all have biases. Yeah. And I always say as well, check the office website, like my office, [00:16:00] all of our photos are friendly and fairly casual.
So if we get ones that are very serious and art house that's a real turnoff for us, but then it could be the opposite with other firms.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. I th I think I w I would say is where are you going with the photo? Sorry to cut you off. This is, it spoke personality. And I think the policy thing is with this.
You see the portfolio is a vehicle to ideally get you an interview on the photo. What you're talking about is certainly a bit of personality, but it's stuff like I imagine if I rang you up. So in your receiving portfolio and we had a chat and I tried to break a little bit of a chink in and go, Hey, I know coronavirus is a bit crazy right now.
Here's my CV portfolio, my graduate that dah. I love the work that you've done. Sarah. I love the architectural practice where you're at. It's really interesting. And I know that you've won a scheme, a large-scale residential scheme. So I'd love to see if there's a job there. That's probably gonna attach to attract your attention.
And there's a bit like that with a picture. Anything you can do to add personality and [00:17:00] warmth, to convey that you're a real person. I smart, intelligent. That's. What's going to get you a job in it then.
Sarah Lebner: Yeah, exactly. Stephen, do you think there's certain ways that architecture, amazing portfolios are different to generic resumes and portfolios?
Stephen Drew: Yeah. So repeat the first bit, because he broke up slightly. Are
Sarah Lebner: there particular ways that an architecture resume and portfolio should be different to a generic resume and portfolio? Cause I guess a lot of people start by Googling generic examples out there. Oh,
Stephen Drew: okay. Yeah, sure. Think a good portfolio is always quite clear and Chris portfolios, it's really one of them things where A lot of it will be based upon the work you've done.
So it's a bit, it's a bit like going into an editing studio. So it's like recording Lord of the rings. I've got nine hours of footage and then, it's and somewhere in there you want to carve out the masterpiece, which was a lot of the rings and get that to laugh hours of juicy. Goodness.
Right now the problem [00:18:00] is if you haven't got the nine hours of footage at the beginning where there's a bit of an uphill battle, but most people I find because we're architects in university, we'll generally have a lot of stuff. And so I find the bat, the battle of a good CV and portfolio is actually editing and curating.
And so I think sometimes less is more or w what you need to think of it is that the portfolio that generic, I think the Arctics, we don't have generic portfolios, and that's the point I'm getting unread so specific and unique where you have to be careful. I was going off on a tangent, and I like to use the analogy that.
You have to be really careful. A portfolio is not to send someone the, for a discography. The Beatles, you have all the albums, the 12 albums discography from everything from start to end, I find that most people will check everything. They've done that someone, right? And it's oh my gosh, this is overwhelming.
What a good portfolio is, should be the best hits. And I want to grab your attention to Sarah. So I'm going to send you like the killer [00:19:00] image, the ProAir professional work at the start so that you subliminally got, oh, Steve's worked in an office, so that's cool. We can get him on board. Oh, wait, he's done a bit of experience.
And if you haven't got that, then that my my, what I would challenge people to do is you've got to think about what is transfer of. From academic work to professional. So you want to w of course I want to wow. Sarah with my cool ideas and all that stuff and how good a designer I'm going to be, but I want to illustrate that I've done it, a technical drawing that I know to use, rather than that, I can do visualizations.
So that what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to subliminally tell you that I can fit in the office. So the goal, and they'd be like, oh yeah, let's get Stephen. Because I, I've got this project, that early stages, and apparently he's a rabbit where's and we can get and doing the 3d model and let's get him in for an interview.
And so that is why a Architectural portfolio you need. The whole goal of the portfolio is of course this quote, unquote, salary [00:20:00] yourself. You want to attract the employer to invite you in, but really what you're doing is you're solving their problem. So a generic portfolio, and the point you're going as these templates.
Templates in my, give a little bit of a sexy layout, but it's all comes down to what the images then are and how you communicate, how I'm going to solve the problems or the practice. That's what a job is a job. Isn't the open-end in a business where there is a need for someone to how to generate revenue.
So that's what you have to remember is what a job is and the way you succeed and get into a company is by conveying in the CV and portfolio that you can fix that. So that I can. So in this analogy of Sarah's team, I need to convince Sarah that I can help her with a project that I'm going to be a good return on the investment.
That I'm going to be a good team contributor, and that I'm going to help the practice grow. So return on investments sounds a bit businessy, [00:21:00] but if you think about it, in terms of a practice is going to put a lot of investment in you, they're going to help you develop, but in return, you're going to get amazing experience.
And in terms of a business sense, the way you become indispensable is that if you have companies out to turn a profit and to make excellent projects, to help that project go into design magazines, then Hey, you are going to become dispensable. And in that sense, You've given them more than they, you they've invested in you.
And that is how employers sorry, employees go up and up in the practice. So a long winding meandering answer, but the portfolio, that's
Sarah Lebner: a great frame of mind, I think, to approach it with and good refresher, especially when you're coming out of that uni mindset, which is I must be the starving artist for the greater good of the world and solve the world's problems.
It's a refreshing yeah. Way to look at it. Are there any stand out supplementary or unique things that you've seen in [00:22:00] resumes and portfolios over the.
Stephen Drew: But you know what? You get a few that really stand out on. Wow. You, and it is true that I can't put a finger on it. Because I said quite funny when we're talking to so one of my greatest strengths and weaknesses, it was a massive weakness.
I think of it now as a strategy to start, I have a really short attention span. And I just think that if you can get past me, then you're going to do well with the employer. And I, and so when I'm recruiting, I always think about, so if Sarah is the client, I'll go meet Sarah in person and now get a feel for her.
I'll get a feel for what the practices like the processes. And they might have, that's where I formed that kind of opinion. And so when I see someone in the CV in portfolio, so answer your question. Something blows me away. Then I get really excited and I want to put them in front of a company and they can be many different ways.
Sometimes it can just be, I think when a portfolio transcend. This quality, [00:23:00] where it's almost like a pleasure to flick through, and that you're ticking all the boxes you're showing case in that you have software ability, you showcase that you have this taste and I get this opinion of this person being just very good.
So that's when I get excited and there is no one way of going about it. So I've seen it that it can just be a very strong portfolio, which is delicately, balanced and showcases beautiful examples of work. That can be great. There's a few where it can be a technical Marvel or I, you can get, I generally think that gimmicks don't work.
At first I used to be wowed by a handcrafted beautiful portfolio. And I think that is nice provided though that the quality of the work inside is amazing. A beautiful handcrafted portfolio will not save the day if the substance isn't good. But what it does do is when the substance is good, it is like that other level where you're like, oh my gosh, look at that.
It's it was like an artwork. It was like a coffee book that I wanted to keep. And I think that's when it [00:24:00] gets to that level. It's exciting. And I think that it think of it like an artwork or a piece of work when Sarah was on about spell checking. It's true that if some people haven't looked at that, then you know, this document, this CV portfolio should be the most important document of your career because it is you is your window into it is it's all about who you are and what you're about.
And the worry go. Where, why was me to go back to the question is when everything is like all the moons align I never knew what I was looking for, but when I see that saving portfolio, It is good. And he's like, why is it good, Steve? I'm just like what? I was spell checked. It was concise. Had this journey.
It wasn't too long. It wasn't too sure the images were good. I understood what the person did. I understood what they passion, what I really want to invite them for an interview. And so that's the thing. So it's, so there is so UNF, the unfortunate [00:25:00] news is there's no Hey, if you download this eight page template, that's going to be the best way to get in.
Cause it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. But if what I want to encourage everyone to do is go off on that adventure and go off and make that amazing piece of a direct your own like feature film or for your own work or what have you. That's what's going to grab my attention.
Sarah Lebner: Now, one of the rare things that I'm a bit of a sucker for and everyone's here already knows it is a personal reference attack.
Thoughts. I really love a personal reference cause it just makes everything the person saying about themselves seem real and backed up by someone else. And often they can really be a win for me and something about my always take time to read them top to bottom as well.
Stephen Drew: There, there are big Put it that way.
Personal references are huge. I, now, when I did my CV cause what happens is we all think, [00:26:00] oh, personal reference, I've got to ask someone that's going to be a better work. It's going to be all awkward. Okay. And so I did recommend. Available upon request. And most people do that and you're right, because what it is, yeah.
It's a bit more work, but you miss a massive opportunity. So in my role and the crew reference. Yeah. But the fact that it's there is really valuable. So I, so what I find is sometimes that I can, for instance, have someone that strongly there's a contractor for me in recruitment. And what, when that contract ends, I always try to get that reference from the employer, because it's the same thing you aren't about.
I guarantee you if I send the CV portfolio and that personal reference, which says Steven was really helpful in the projects he contributed to the team, the project was this land from, we ended it because the project ended and we really think we really wish Daniel or whoever then guess what, that really does help because what it does is it answers questions and it goes back to what we were on about with biases.
Okay. And if a role is a short [00:27:00] stint, or if you haven't worked in industry. Then these personal references, they're really helpful because they paint a picture of who you are, but they might answer a question. Which we'll then get you the interview. So if some, if you have a short period on a road and it happened organically having it in writing, so Sarah's project and the quickly, and she needed someone temporary, but Sarah for she was good.
This person was good. And then wrote a reference that's really. Whereas what happens is that sometimes if a role is quite short in the CV and it's not explained, then when I'm looking at it, I might go, is this person flaky? Are they really? And you probably not, but your mind wanders into what if, and then they like, and so a reference will do that.
And also it might be that they're senior, you haven't worked in industry yet, but you were hard work and then get a reference from your your supermarket thing or whatever. And you could have referenced with her, from your boss, with David and says he worked really hard for us while studying. And [00:28:00] that's really helpful as well.
So yes, they are very good. Is the short answer. Do it
Sarah Lebner: get and have you seen any recent good or bad trends in resume and portfolios or just networking in general over the recent years.
Stephen Drew: Okay, good question. So I'm going to at this. My current four processes. So I organic things change all the time. It's this partly inspired by actually even what we were doing.
We remember when we, how we met in terms of building the community and thinking about all these ways online. Okay. To communicate. So you'll find a lot of the current trend right now is okay. I've got a beautiful Instagram. Okay. And I've got my LinkedIn and I've got my Facebook and all these ways to communicate yourselves as well as digital portfolios.
You have to remember is that these are all tools to communicate who you are, but you shouldn't rely on one tool and that shouldn't be the sole purpose. And I get a little bit concerned right now. We're all getting comfortable with these [00:29:00] tools. Cause you got to remember what they are, the digital platforms and their tools.
The upside is that they can get you attention, but you have to remember what they are. And w and the one thing that I'm getting concerned about is that certain people I've seen examples where portfolios are quite light, and then they go look at my YouTube, look at my Instagram, but you could see a bit more on LinkedIn and you can't rely on that and you can't expect the employee to do it because for all, I am, let's pretend I'm working for you, Sarah.
I printed out the CVS on your desk. You're going to read them in the car cause you really busy. And you're going to, maybe you look on the Instagram, maybe you dumb, you really busy. And also what you've got to remember is that these systems are designed for. Second people in and keeping them on the platform.
So it's really dangerous for you to then get an employer's gone your YouTube because the algorithm will then push the word to go to another Architecture video, and suddenly the focus has gone. So [00:30:00] when you use these tools, bring them into you. So it shouldn't be, it should be the other way around. You shouldn't have a CV in portfolio that then links out to Instagram.
The Instagram should be yours anyways. And you say that you're looking and you link potential employers to an amazing CV and portfolio. And so the LinkedIn should be a catalyst to stuff that you're doing. It should be a catalyst to getting people, to look at the CV portfolio and to reach out it should not be the other way around.
And I think that. Because I everyone's at home and the easily accessible where we starting to rely on these tools that way as though my Instagram is my port is not okay. And I don't think it is. So that's the four that I've been thinking about subliminally and even communicated it to anyone. But that's my current theory or what's happened.[00:31:00]
Sarah Lebner: I think that hits the nail on the head. Yeah. I really like that. It's so useful if you're using it in the right direction. Rather than reversing it back around the wrong way. Yeah, absolutely. And so let's talk about LinkedIn. You're quite active on LinkedIn. I'm not at all. I think like a lot of people we've feel pressured to have our resume up there and we connect with people and then never look at it again.
How can we be using LinkedIn? And so for someone like me who doesn't use it at all, And I don't even really understand how it's used. I know some people post things a bit like social media. Could you tell us in a nutshell what the value is and how we can get value out
Stephen Drew: of that? Yes, I was so LinkedIn.
So the road deal is that LinkedIn is quite a very good tool for me. So as a recruiter, I will reach out to people. I talk to them about a job. Okay. It's a very good platform for that getting
Sarah Lebner: messages [00:32:00] from recruiters.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. And they can be annoyingly or it can be targeted as well. And so this is what I would say.
You've got to think of LinkedIn, like an extension of your CV and portfolio. That's the truth of it. Okay. So you want to get all your experience on there. You want it to be succinct. You want everything to be available, you can't, but LinkedIn as well, because it is saturated. And what you'll find is. You might get a job from there.
You might meet a recruiter or you might meet an employer. I reckon employers, aren't really looking at that. This is more recruitment focused and where LinkedIn can be good is in a social networking tour a little bit like a professional Facebook, but if you're going to affect, if you on LinkedIn, if you think you're going to find something valuable in that feeds is very unlikely.
I find there's a lot of garbage there. So what I'm trying to get out is yeah. It's and I find that sometimes it's just a way for people to does she get distracted at work and look fakely [00:33:00] professional. Cause it's I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. But where it's been powerful for me. And this is an example for you guys, is that say it can be really good in terms of, you could put an image out there and it can go a bit viral and you can grab a bit of attention, but you're not going to get a job on the back of that.
You're more likely, you're much more likely to get a job from getting that beautiful CV portfolio, sending it to companies and calling them up directly. So I think that LinkedIn is overrated. No, let me rephrase. Not the it's a tertiary thing. So your primary thing is a CV portfolio and how you act about it.
It's secondary or tertiary. So don't overly worry about LinkedIn, but think about it. Like maybe you spend a few hours, two hours and you just get your LinkedIn nice and tidy. So it's really clear who you are and what it's about. And then you leave there and you come back to [00:34:00] in the few months and you update it when, for instance, your job title changes because you become a registered architect, then you updated on that.
Okay. That's all I think the professional needs. And then what you'll find is that when you're looking for a job, I think on there, you can communicate to recruiters that you want to look, and then you will find engagement. So think of LinkedIn as a vehicle of communication, you can find some really cool events on there and you can see some stuff, but do not worry too much about.
Oh, I have to generate content every week for a professional. I don't think you need to do that. It's just good to keep up to date with the information every few months.
Sarah Lebner: That's good to know. Yeah. I think it does have its place as almost a directory. I know often I go to a professional event and you're not going to share your Facebook with someone and you're never going to really become pen pals, but it's quite acceptable to become LinkedIn contacts.
And then down the track, if [00:35:00] I'm wanting to find them for a job or wanting to reach out to them for an opportunity, you can find them. I think the other thing I would note is Whenever I'm thinking about hiring someone. So we've got our sort of final three candidates. I'll always also do the, sort of the check on the internet.
You check if there's any sort of public Facebook things, and it's interesting, but I'm always the LinkedIn as well. And I think if you've got a good resume and portfolio, but it's pretty clear that your LinkedIn was rushed together in five minutes. That can be a bit of a a negative mark.
So yeah, I still think it can be useful to keep it ongoing maybe particularly for later in your career when it's not overtly looking, but just trying to keep track of who's doing what or stalking people in your community.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think you can use it if you were, if you're a job seeker where it can be useful, as well as that, you can use it as a research tool a little bit like your spike, essentially, you can do the other way.
You can [00:36:00] find out how many people in the company, you can get a picture for it, how active they are, and that can be useful, or even finding someone's name. So maybe if it's not on the website, then you go there, you find a director and you address it to them. I think it can be a good tool, but that's, I think it goes back to what we're discussing.
It's a tool. It's definitely not the CV platform.com. It's just something that can be used sporadically.
Sarah Lebner: Yeah, I think that's. Really good advice and relieving advice. Cause I was a bit stressed if you were going to say we should be on there full-time as well.
So one of the big things we've been discussing a lot is obviously this job seeking thing during lockdown. In the past I've been a really big pusher of dropping in a physical portfolio to have that opportunity, to meet someone and show a bit of initiative. And at the moment I've been suggesting it could be an interesting idea to do a little video introduction that you could send as something a bit [00:37:00] different.
Yeah. And of course always follow up with a phone call, any yeah. What are your thoughts on being a bit innovative at the moment when so many of our members are our local. Yeah,
Stephen Drew: good question. I like it. I do like it and it just goes back to my thing here. If you've been innovative, think of it as not one or other, so it's not oh, I've sent a video.
Therefore I don't need to send a CV or anything mad like that. I just think that if you're going to be innovative and make sure that they tried all tasks, this stuff really works first. So that's CV portfolio Keller. And then your cool, crazy idea on top. That's going to be the, Zoona say qua that's going to be the bit that grabs the attention.
But the point is if the CV portfolio is strong and then Sarah, because she's busy, it doesn't look at this innovative video, you still get the innovative where and that's the way. So I love these ideas and I think they're good. Think of them as the cherry on [00:38:00] top of the cake. It doesn't matter how good if the cake isn't good, the math, how many charities you put on top of it?
You just, it doesn't matter. So get the basics, and then all these innovations are good. I've seen good examples of now we're actually pushing in terms of war in terms of McDonald company, we've invested huge in this video platform. So for interviews. So there is definitely something, what you're talking about, the point is in a video interview or a video message or all this kind of stuff, you're going to need to see that CV in portfolio and we will live and die by the quality of your work.
Sarah Lebner: Yeah. And do you think I guess this is just a little quick question. Do you think there's much difference in how you should frame your resume and portfolio and all those things, depending on whether you're sinking your first job or looking for opportunities to change your job or trying to connect with potential collaborators or clients,
Stephen Drew: it depends where you are in life.
It's I feel like [00:39:00] I, I look back in all the CVS I sent and there'll be very particular. So I remember, so a good example is my part one and part two, see. They were very much about where I was at, who I am. And they were designed a little bit for the mass market, as in, I didn't know what architectural practice I want, ads and I, when I graduated for my part, once when I was a grad, it was a bit similar to coronaviruses and it wasn't a good time.
It was pheasant and nine, it was the global recession. And so yes, I would have loved to given you Sarah as employer, a beautiful handwritten portfolio or a printed out. And the thing is that you have to be quite realistic and especially if the job market's competitive, then the best thing you can do is design it in a way to reach the most amount of people and the most amount of practices, because you have to don't think that's a bad thing because.
And then fire, right? Put it this way. If you go for a few interviews, then when you pick a company you want to work for, you made an [00:40:00] informed choice, you don't feel pressured. And then going through interviews is the best thing you can do. And so go back to your point about different CVS. But when I was in industry and I wanted to work in recruitment, I did a tailored CV for bespoke careers and two other architectural recruitment companies where I said, I want to work for an architectural recruitment company.
I don't want to work for any old recruitment company. And that's because I am an architect and this is the path I want to go. So it's oh, sorry. My phone was ringing at the point where. I think it's about where you are in your career and what you're about. And I think if you're in general milestones, then a nice CV, which is well-rounded about what you were looking for.
It's going to suit and if you work in the practice, but you're really interested in a particular practice then, because you have a current job, you can spend time and do a tailored one.
Sarah Lebner: That'd be. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think that's great information. Didn't have this question on our list, but I think it [00:41:00] would be a good one.
Ask is I've never really understood it either. And I'm sure a lot of people in the same boat, how does a recruiter actually? If you go down that path to finding.
Stephen Drew: I was at work, be there. I'm going to do excuse me, one of my topics where I'm going to go on a bit more full full spectrum about the behind the scenes sort of recruitment.
Cause there's quite whole areas. I think that recruiters don't want to talk about it because they worry that it will offend people. And then everyone gets the wrong idea. What happens so generally. And so in short recruitment, okay. We are hired to find people and we paid for it and it can sound like a lot of money.
So what you've got to remember is a recruiter. So Sarah, will you hire me? And I will get a paid little percentage when someone's salary for an introduction. That's the bit that no one everyone worries about hearing because it sounds quite vulgar excuse me. So it, a good recruiter where I get involved.
So Sarah, see, now you were like, I just want to find a part, one, a, [00:42:00] so a good recruitment. Was I going to come on Saturday? You can do that yourself. You don't need me for that, but where I'm involved is so see, now you were like, look, Steve, I have a health care project. I need someone with healthcare experience.
They need to be rabbit. They need to be very specific to the job and I need technical stages and I'm like, oh, okay, that's going to be more tough because I got to find someone who has the experience you want can fit in the area can do all that. And that's why I say, it's going to take me a lot of timing, a lot of filtering, and there's a cost attached to it.
The reason I bring this up is because graduates you probably don't need to speak to recruiters just yet. And that's what, that's the truth. Because if you think about it if I'm hired on a mission to find people for Sarah, then. That's why I've done the plaque from the Architecture Social. And that's why places like your community, Sarah valuable, because that's going to be the most value to someone in that position right now at the start of your Korean.
So a recruiter is going to be much more valuable [00:43:00] to you when you're in your career. And for instance, Sarah, you say, Steve, I need a job where I can not work crazy hours anymore. And I've done all this residential experience. I've done a bit of rabbit and can you find somewhere? And so it's a tailored search.
And the reason that it, that we offer more value than it is because I ideally a good recruitment outcome of two or free valuable options to where you are Sarah in your career at that point. And the reason I can spend time and energy on it is because that's what I'm paid to do. So the sooner you understand what a recruiter is about and how it stacks up and.
Financially, then you can understand where a recruiter's value is. So they're very unlikely to be the best person to help you your first job in industry.
Sarah Lebner: Yeah. And the person who's job seeking never pays the recruiter. Do they? It's always going to be covered by the peop the [00:44:00] employee.
Stephen Drew: Exactly.
And it would never be part of your salary. So what it is, the fee is based on a certain amount and it's, and that factors in the introduction. So in short, just to demystify it. So finding people is stressful job seeking, whether you're an employer or a client is stressful. And if you, Sarah spent the whole day interviewing people and they're not suitable, and you spend a whole day, you sifting through CVS and they're not the right fit, then you've cost your company.
It's cause and so recruit good recruitment should be, yes, it costs money, but I offload all that because I understand who you are and what you're about. I find the relevant person. So that's where the cost is then justified. It's a bit like an architecture and you get pills per hour. And it's the same thing of when you get to your brief [00:45:00] on boards, there's a cost involved because that's how much work's involved.
Why? I think it's important to job seekers to understand the process though, is that if a recruiter is looking for a very specific thing, then especially if you start off in your career, the best person to help you solve is you because. You could work in a residential project, you could work in, and that comes from who you are, who you interview as a recruiter is unlikely at the junior end to have many roles for you.
So that's why I talk about how it works so that once you understand that you go, oh, okay, that's something to return to in the feature. The best person is me. And why I think that's important is that I spent, because I've had it happen before where I'm really busy. And I and someone rings me up and I try to give them as much information as I can to get them on their way into the free minutes, but it's never enough.[00:46:00]
And so that's why on the Architecture, Social, or what you do, where you provide a lot of really good content recreate there. Those are the places that you want to go for where there's a lot of resources and you can do it yourself. That's the way I would go about it. If you're early in your career, you probably don't need to spend too much time with a recruiter yet.
Sarah Lebner: That's really useful to know though. Cause I think a lot of people, even later in their career, don't understand how a recruiter works. And I thought until recently that I would have to pay that recruiter as well. So it's handy for knowledge for people to keep with them. This is just a note for everyone watching.
We're about to jump into questions. So please have a think about your questions. Put, pop a little summary of your question in the chat so that I can shoot to you at the right time. I've already got one in there, so let me know while you're doing that. Stephen. Yeah, we did meet on in the mighty networks course, actually.
So tell us about your mighty [00:47:00] network.
Stephen Drew: I think we met in weeks. I was midnight. We have a half a bottle of wine under what? Oh, I was probably
Sarah Lebner: embarrassing session. I didn't realize that was you though. I just did a little search and I was like, oh, Architecture related. And we started with chat. Oh that's yes.
Stephen Drew: I was the embarrassing one. Cause it was like 1:00 AM and I was like, Hey, good on that guy. Oh, brilliant. That's the power of networking and so it's interesting because, so the reason I sat at the Architectural.
Is because I was on furlough in the UK. And so forth fellow is because of the coronavirus is that I was working half the week. And for the first month it was quite fun to have a glass of wine and watch TruSeq park and do all this kind of stuff like we were on about. But then I just felt like I needed to do something or give a little bit back.
And then I fought as well. Going back to what we talked about recruitment, wouldn't it be great to have a resource where I can point people to when I can't immediately help them? Or [00:48:00] wouldn't it be nice if there's a certain place, a certain community. And so my, so the Architecture, Social changes all the time in the organic way.
It's a bit less, so I haven't actually been in your community. Sarah, what I love about it is it's very focused. It's very niche and it's for people that want to push it and they create, and we have that a little bit in the Architecture Social, but it's a little bit more open-ended. Stuff in and there's less, one-on-one nurturing out.
There's a bit of that and I've done some podcasts and there's, if there's a few crazy stuff, but where the Architecture Social I see it succeed in so far as that. Focused on the architectural community. You can, there's loads of people that they basically have is less nice than LinkedIn. Most nice and Facebook it's really friendly people and it's a bit open-ended.
So I got
Sarah Lebner: the vibe when I was in there that it's almost like a digital footprint of the Architecture network you have around you
Stephen Drew: anyway. Yeah. [00:49:00] That's it. And so I've done a lot of webinars about CVS portfolios because that's really my strength. And what was cool is that we had someone who was an architect in the UK and he fancy doing some Revvit training courses.
So I was like, yeah, come on. Let's do that. Let's get that show on the road. So I think, yeah, so it would be really interesting to see it as an experiment. What kind of things happen in there and who knows? And
you've
Sarah Lebner: Got these little subgroups that are also managed by other people. In the industry that are doing their own thing.
Are you still doing that? Yeah,
Stephen Drew: there's a bit of ant and this, a few things that let's like succeed and now, and I find that they haven't been the most successful thing, but what are we going to do soon on that is that my plan is to get all the architectural universities in the UK and then more on there.
So I think that'd be really cool to see all of the students. And wouldn't it be nice for like students from one university to the others to talk to each other? Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So I think that's my golf. So [00:50:00] I've got all 56. I've got ring them all. Now I've got to put all the lessons that we talked about here.
Sarah Lebner: Ah, don't NBU so I guess for my crew watching do check out the Architecture, Social it's completely free. You can just join up and you guys are already familiar with the mighty networks app and everything. You can find it and have a look around there, and there should be lots of interesting things in there.
And then, because Stephen is also going to post this chat into his network, I should do a little intro on the architect project, which as Steven said, is a much, much more intimate thing. It's essentially it's specifically for young aspiring Australian architects is the tagline who working want to work towards employment, registration, or doing their own thing, whatever their next level in their Early career is sooner and with more impact and with more confidence.
And so it's all built around that. There's about, I think there's about 56 in there at the [00:51:00] moment of us, which is a really good number. And then it's quite a structured thing. So every fortnight we have these type of guests sessions once a week, there's a drop-in session where you can come have a chat to me every week.
There's a different little challenge, so that you're prompted to keep the wheels turning on what you're doing. And also sharing of resources and networking. And our our network is a paid network, so it's $5 a week, Australian dollars. And but I think for. Particularly people for the UK, I think because the industries do overlap so much.
If someone wanted to come in from hours I've had a few people reach out that aren't in Australia and it's my messages. Yes. You're very welcome to come in and check it out as a two week free trial. And see if it's for you, just keeping in mind that the content will be Australia focused, but this first quarter is you call about self-development.
Anyway, so it's not really like construction specific or things. So it is a bit more general. So that's us in a nutshell. All right. We've got some questions for [00:52:00] you here, Stephen. So Georgia, I'm going to ask you to pop your video and sound on please. And you can go ahead and ask your question to Stephen.
I might just I'll meet myself. It wasn't really ready. Sorry, Georgia and staff you'll be next. So I'll just
Stephen Drew: quickly ask about cover letters. You were mentioning before how sometimes you can find the, like the director's name or something on LinkedIn. Sometimes you can't find anyone specific or sometimes
Sarah Lebner: There's a few
Stephen Drew: directors and you're not sure who to address it to the cover letter.
Do you have any advice for that? Yeah. Do you know what covering that as they're a bit like the bane of my existence, as in, I completely all the time, I have different opinions on them. And so it is nice to do a custom cover and that's, and I've done them before. What I think though is the point you're raising is that it's really hard to find this information and sometimes it can actually [00:53:00] stop the process.
So I question whether or not. A covering letter is needed all the time. So I used to do them. I've seen really good examples where, the CVM portfolios and the re reference, is it going to be infinitely more powerful than the covering letter and also a covering that as sometimes it overlap the email that you send?
So what I would say is. I have a think about what value or that cover that as I added, if the Kevin that is too, long-winded people get boards half the time. Anyways, I think people really, I don't know. For me, when I look at CVS from my own team, I'll never look at the cover of that. I look at the CV first, then portfolio, and then I'll look at the covering letter.
In terms of finding you find that information out. If you can't find that information, I would suggest don't worry about it. And for that particular example, maybe what you can do is that if you can't find that particular name, I would have a quick sanity check. So always have a look quickly on the company, [00:54:00] on the teams, or then go on LinkedIn and see if you can find the director or you could even call up and just say, Hey, I'm going to send a CV and portfolio who should I send the CV to, bring up the company.
They're going to be really friendly really? And I suppose they'll always say, you call up, they'll go, oh, Sarah does all the applications you can send dress it's Sarah. So calling up is probably a good thing, but I don't want you to do is worry about spending lots and lots of times for one or two pieces of information on a cover in Latin.
When you think in a CVS, think about it practically. You don't want to spend too long on them. Unless for instance, that is the one company you want to work for in the world. If you're a graduate and you want to look for a lot of places, then if you can't find the information in a minute. Yeah. You generalize it and go I don't like to who main concern, but you can just be like, hi, I'm really interested in working with yourself.
Oh, and architects. I am a dah. So there's ways around them, which you can do. Hopefully that's helpful. Yeah. That is. And also, you just [00:55:00] mentioned the overlap of the email and cover letter. I've always been a little bit confused with that because I have
Sarah Lebner: felt like I've maybe repeated. That's a great question, Georgia.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. I CA everyone has an opinion. You might remember that employers it's always tasted the company. I not a big fan of covering that as I feel like if you can get the point across in an email, it's fine. Okay. But that's my opinion. Yeah. And someone who runs an architectural practice may disagree. So you have to weigh it up.
I think that generally if half of what's in the covenant that area's in the email, then, so think about it. If you're going to do a cover letter, then make your email really succinct and clear and crisp. So if the cover of that says the big story about who I am, Stephen Drew, then maybe in an email that you can go hi Sarah, I'm Stephen Drew parts, Architectural Assistant, currently looking at I've attached a covering letter, which gives a bit more information about who I am, CV and portfolio.
Please let me know if you have any thoughts, or you might go in the [00:56:00] email, you might paint the picture a bit further. Again, it goes back to what we're talking about off. There's no one way of going about it, or you just have to look at the end, is now. Does the email flow into the cavern letter to the CV, to the portfolio, or is the email finding that it flows straight into the CV portfolio?
I will never, again, in my life do it can never cover that way. But the subjective
Sarah Lebner: that's Georgia. One more question leading on from that side, I've also been a little
Stephen Drew: bit confused with the best way of like attaching the files because sometimes I've had my resume at the start of my portfolio and it the design, like the font and everything needs on or should I have them separate.
Okay, cool. I've done a few of these actually check out a few, cause I've done an hour long, a webinar on CV and an hour long and portfolio there on the Architecture, Social and on my YouTube channel for the Architecture Social. [00:57:00] But the short answer we're hearing now is. I like the CV and portfolio of separate that's my personal opinion.
Yeah. I like it really. It can be really clear for the employer. So the files shouldn't be S the 20, 20 CV one. Okay. That's rubbish. It's going to be Stephen Drew, CV, Stephen Drew portfolio, Stephen Drew reference letter really crisp. And you want to make the file sizes easy to open. You've got to think and check the files and not sluggish.
If fall doesn't work on a phone while Sarah might be looking at the CV on her way to a next job and it doesn't load, then that's your chance gone. So the point is that neither the CV import of CV file one to two mag. You want your portfolio to be don't five to 15 sheets. Okay. No more than 10 Meg, it's going to be easy to open and it could be nice separate files.
And yeah, what I hate about when you bunch of a file [00:58:00] together is that if you have a small CV, a big portfolio, and it's just a nightmare on the phone. So think about the practicalities of it all and think about what is the easiest way to show everything, because the easiest way to communicate and to get people to look at your work is always the best way.
Sarah Lebner: Yeah. Thanks Georgia. There was great questions. I'm Steph, I'm going to ask you to pop your video on if you're willing
Stephen Drew: living the
Sarah Lebner: dream. That's good. Thank you so much for your time tonight. It's really interesting to
Stephen Drew: hear from a recruiter's
Sarah Lebner: perspective. My question was just about a few years into my. So I'm not fresh out of
Stephen Drew: uni.
Sarah Lebner: It
Stephen Drew: sounds tailoring your survey and portfolio to the top
Sarah Lebner: of fam you'd like to go for is really
Stephen Drew: important.
So I was just wondering what your top tips were in doing your research apart from Instagram
Sarah Lebner: stalking and looking at
Stephen Drew: their website. [00:59:00] Okay. It depends what the brief is. So the truth is if I can give you a Corona virus or panicky world, or right now where things are competitive just make sure that the points of what you're doing.
Strong CV portfolio strong, and that you hit the nail on the heads. Your saving portfolio is going to be sealable for the most amount of employers. Okay. That's not what an architectural practice will say. They'll tell you that you want, they want to look at the projects and all that. What I would say is maybe what you, if I was looking for a job right now, when I was looking before I sent my CV to a five person companies.
So you have to remember that I'm, that's my opinion. And that's what got me a job at a top hundred companies because I applied everywhere. Okay. But what you might find is that say now for instance, staff, you have 10 to 20 places. You really like the way I would do it in my head as well. When I'm looking for a job, I go look, Grimshaw is, I love Grimshaw.
So they're going to be a step above the rest. Okay. So you have tears accompanies. So you're going to [01:00:00] have companies which are going to be like the ones you really want to work out. One of them could be Sarah's company. One of them could be Grimshaw and then they can be the generic ones. And so that when I say generic, maybe you don't know enough of them, but if you go for an interview, Hey, they might be the best.
Ever right. The happy accidents. Cause that's what happened with my company. They turn, that would be amazing. But when I was going a to Z, I just didn't know who they were at the time. And so for the top 10 to 20 that you, and then you put a bit more research into it. And so you are, you just think about it in terms of topics or conversations.
So you might, for instance, say no Grimshaw won a big planning project, then you may, oh, sorry. A big transport scheme say now they've just got the infrastructure. What like the Sydney Metro. That was a big thing. Wasn't that? So you can be like, I've just seen in the news Grimshaw, you've got the Sydney Metro and for years I've absolutely loved Grimshaw work.
I always, for instance, had a fascination and a keen interest into transport. I would love [01:01:00] to hear join your team that okay. So that's one example. Generally the best way to relate to a practice is where their projects and their design ethos, and then the person. So that's the kind of thing I would look for.
And they were just trying to feed in information around that area for the ones that you were interested in and for the rest of them, just go mass markets and just champion all your strengths and abilities. You're never gonna find there's never going to be like the there's no right or wrong way about it, but just think about it like your, a conversation.
So is Sarah's company than any news that she's got on their website and news on Google, that's going to be off relevant to the top because I might go I'm was really interested in this project and the sec goes, oh, I was actually the project architect for it. And you're like, oh, I really enjoyed them pictures and say, oh yeah, I did this.
And now it did not fit. And suddenly you're building up a rapport and that's, what's going to get you the job. Thank you. That's really helpful. Yeah, no worries.
Sarah Lebner: Yeah, that's a good summary. We had one other [01:02:00] follow-up question. The, oh, do I have my sound on yesterday? The suggested limit for page numbers, you mentioned five to 15.
Does that include title pages, dividing pages between projects or is that not encouraged?
Stephen Drew: Damn. I shouldn't have said 10 for five. Cause I don't, I, again, don't, I, my worry is, don't say big when I say these things, people cling to it and they cost and 16 might be okay or it might just cause it's all about what's in them.
Sarah Lebner: And just it feel digestible and the thing is the, yeah.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. I'm I tell you one of my pet peeves, I'm not a big fan of title sheets and coverage sheets and all this stuff, a whole, yeah, a whole sheet that just says Sarah's portfolio. I'm like, let's just go into it. If you're going to be, if you're going to do it, be clever with AI think I think you I've seen good examples of where it could be.
You could even put like a hero show or you done, then you can illustrate what you want. But generally, in [01:03:00] terms of I they're the bane of my existence in my job because I have to get rid of half of them because what they do is they answer the spouse sizes and then make it, and I feel like that the cover, the, a title sheet is that what we on about like Stephen Drew is portfolio that just adds bulk to the portfolio and yeah.
But remember that's where I'm saying that everything is subjective and you probably seen a fever.
Sarah Lebner: I probably differ on that one. And there's someone in the group. I can't remember who it is, has a really interesting cover sheet where they've tied into a matrix of the different relevant experience.
And it's really clear and you see it right from the start. The big thing that gets me is I want to see an overview of what's university. What's personal, what's from a firm because these days often it's, it takes me a little while to work out. Hang on. Was this a uni project? Was it a group project?
Was this a design competition that you did privately? Was this a job? So I like it. If the cover sheet can [01:04:00] outline those things.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. I think the
Sarah Lebner: Georgia yes. In the comments. Yeah. Yeah.
Stephen Drew: While you're on a boat is something that you're offering value that maybe I'm jaded. Because I've seen so many that I feel alpha, no value that they just say Steven's portfolio.
And it's I know that because we've gone into it, but if you could do something clever, like you're on a boat, Sarah, then I think they're more valuable. But again, this is the point of, and this is probably, it was like, we're going on about five to 10 shades. That mean you have a different opinion on this and that's okay.
And this is the thing, is that when you're looking for a job say, now I've got my own architectural practice and Sarah has hers. You're going to find those certain company. Gravitate to certain different things. There's no right way. So I hate covering that covering sheets, content sheets, but you like them, and there's nothing wrong with that.
And that's why, so as long as it works, so you're comfortable with it then. Great. But I just find that [01:05:00] the content sheet doesn't mean anything if the content isn't valuable and the problem is you're a very good point. You were saying the contents sheet was great, cause it was clever and it was four hours and that's amazing.
And that feat and that goes back to what we were about earlier when something transpires into being special. But just the worst thing you can do is pat out a document. Steven's portfolio and then it goes a few sheets and it goes academic portfolio. So don't it's not gonna, it's not gonna fill it in for a lack of substance.
That's what I'm on about,
Sarah Lebner: Yeah, for sure. Jeremy, with the final question, are you happy to pop your video on and ask it?
Stephen Drew: I don't know why this one is. I'm dreading this question. Oh, Hey, I'm loving the backgrounds. Yeah, it's I'm to obviously you can't see behind me, but I'm transitioning into my parents' house.
Junk everywhere. So this is this is in [01:06:00] Fiji. Not Mount Fuji. Oh my God. All right. Yeah my question was which you've probably seen what is the most creative slash standout portfolio and the reason why I ask this, oh, I've seen so many there's I can't put my feet were supposed to create if there's people in my head where I remember being wowed.
Okay. And I think what's the most creative portfolio. I've never, I can't remember. And that's the point? So there's no one way I think that the best, most creative ones oh, I need to think about this. It's When I've been genuinely excited to get someone a job after watching them. It's so standard portfolio. Normally I think it's done portfolio. Okay. Maybe look at this way where I get a sense of someone's personality and who they are. I got this overwhelming feeling like they driven and that they're very good or I'm just wowed [01:07:00] by it.
And that can be, and where it can be with not gimmicks as well. It can just be like, this is what goes it goes back to what Sarah's on about where like everything in the portfolio down to a T is perfect. As in it's spousal track, it reads like a book. It could basically when I think they stand out is when you could literally go to a ring binder and put a hard cover on it.
And it's a book, right? It's like when I F I C I tell you why I met this other guy here. Yeah. I remember early in bespoke when I was in London and I felt like I was looking at a piece of history because you'd worked on, the CCTV tower and all this stuff. And I was wowed by the projects. And so that one sticks out to me because I got to see a bit of architectural history, but then equally I remember being so impressed by someone who wrote their own program and wrote their own script.
And then we had this amazing journey where I felt like I was just discovering something with him. And so I was with him during this portfolio [01:08:00] interview and it was like a snapshot into what someone had done, which felt revolutionary. And so that one stands out and then I'll never really good example is I remember there's a contractor that I got a job at Skidmore, Owings and Merrill.
I remember meeting him and go for his portfolio and I was just. This is the best thing I've seen in ages. Let's get you a job now. And then I just, I rang up a company afterwards who had a good relationship wherever, and I went, ah, Coolum are you hiring? And he's no. And I'm like I'm going to send you someone you're going to hire anyways.
And you just have to find some room for them. Cause it's best CVS seen all year. And he went our eye, big words. We'll see. And then in the end we got an interview and it's because I was so wowed and then the guy went for the net view and he was like, yeah, just get him in. I like it. And what it was is that they was genuineness and it was nothing like, so this one was nothing that any of you guys couldn't do it.
It was just so well put [01:09:00] together. And it was so tasteful and it was just so it's so well curated. And my point is you don't need to have the CEC TB tower. We've ran cool house in your CV that they didn't press me. But what does impress me or stands out is I remember the people and the P the people that stand out is just when their portfolio is just well succinct.
It's re it's like going on Dezeen it's like going on these places and you go from it to start when there's a joy. And if you can, if you see the portfolio is like a joy, like from then the person's gonna ring up and the way you do them, I think it varies from person to person. I just think a tasteful portfolio where you've got your personality, and then you you communicate all the ideas you have and a really clear and crisp way that gets the employers.
Excited is going to be the portfolio of the standard. Yep. [01:10:00] Cool. Sounds good. Yeah, no, that's great. That's great. It's interesting.
Sarah Lebner: Thanks Jeremy. Cool. All right. We we might wrap that up there. So our final question Stephen, that we ask everyone who comes on as a guest. What is your number one piece of advice for young architects
Stephen Drew: right now?
Okay. Don't worry about imposter syndrome. You've got to think that you sometimes you're going to doubt yourself. Okay. We've all been there. I do it all the time. That's how faith is normal. The best thing is to do it now. Okay. And when I say I love the expression, just do it now. As in what I wouldn't want you guys, it's there's a lot of conversations we've had here.
What is the best portfolio you've ever seen or what if I can find a bit of information and I can't do that cover in there. What if I'm not going to be perfect? Okay. First you CVS, you put a send out. You, maybe you change them based upon the feedback that you get. You [01:11:00] send a CV out. I ring Sarah up. She's look, Steve.
I think there's potential. Yeah, but the skit, the spell check. I didn't think the accuracy was there and the portfolio is a bit long. Thank you, Sarah. I really appreciate the feedback. Then I sent my CV, the grim show with Sarah's feedback and guess what I get in Grimshaw. So you've got to do things now and I want to get past this thing of perfection.
I remember there was a guy in my studio and he had better work than. It much, it was a better designer than me, but he spent so long in the first few pages, they didn't communicate the rest of the project. And he had a worst grade, the meme and migrate out a strong to one and he scraped the two one. And it was because he was how bent to the end on communicating this idea.
And he ran out of time. And what words, what you can't afford to do right now, guys is that you can't make a, you can't let things slow you down. If you haven't got the information, move on with it. Okay. That this is the kind of point of being an architect. When you get a brief, you get [01:12:00] difficulties on the project and you overcome it.
And most like me, we have a professional, some days they work some days it doesn't okay. And with your CV and portfolio and you get that. You got to think of it like a task. And you've got to think of it. Like I haven't got that persons. I don't know who they were address it to, but I'm going to send it out anyways and you're going to keep going and you're going to keep doing, and if you're worried about things not being right, you can tweak them along the way.
It's like on the Architecture, Social I posted last week. And then for graphic, it's still annoying me at the moment, but I just, you know what, if you look back, you can see the rubbishy ones are the start and over time you see it progress. Okay. But if I got really. Precious about the FA about everything.
Then there would be no Architecture, Social, and Sarah wouldn't have her Instagram or anything because it evolves over time, but you've got to do it and pay putting yourself out there and speaking to people in the community and speaking to each other and discussing with each other, what works and what doesn't and sharing and how, [01:13:00] and then you're going to get a better result.
You're going to go further and that's the kind of person I would hire to be on my TV, a team. So the point is do it. Now. Don't worry about being perfect and challenge yourself. If you send to CVS today, why I reckon you can do 10 a well, this and that. Okay. We're not going to look back, but tomorrow, push it further, get it out.
More things you do. The more feedback you have, the more you can improve. The more you are practicing architecture, the better you going. So my advice is do it now.
Sarah Lebner: Love it. Thank you. Great sentiment to end on Steven. Thanks so much for your time. Hope everyone checks out the Architecture, Social and for anyone from the Architecture, Social do come check out the architect project and thanks for your generous information.
We really appreciate it.
Stephen Drew: Oh, no problem. I've enjoyed this all out. Thank you so much, Sarah.
Sarah Lebner: Good. All right. Thanks everyone for joining us. We'll sign off and I'll [01:14:00] see you all around. Thanks everyone. Bye.