From Setbacks to Success: Ste Taylor’s Journey to Head of Design at Turley
From Setbacks to Success: Ste Taylor’s Journey to Head of Design at Turley
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Stephen Drew: Hello! That's right, kicking off in 30 seconds. All you budding urban designers out there, and architects who like large scale projects, this one might be for you. 25 seconds. Hello everyone, and welcome to this non livestream special. That's right, just pretend I'm there with you, and if you leave an [00:01:00] abusive comment, I will ignore it when it comes to it as well. But we're here Because I think this is going to be an interesting episode, because my guest with me has done some of the most profound urban design projects that are around you and comes from an architecture background, but as well as that, we're going to discuss some The journey to get there, switching it up a little bit in the career, as well as design codes.
What does that mean? How does it affect you? And to help me through all that important stuff, I've got an awesome guest with me, who is Stephen Taylor, who is Head of Design at Turley. Stephen, how are you today? You okay?
Ste Taylor: Tremendous. Thank you, Stephen. I loved your I loved your countdown, the psychedelic numbers. So tell me about the 90s. I loved it.
Stephen Drew: There you go, it's back to the dorms in university while you're doing your part one and part two. But before we go there, in case someone has not met you before, can you tell us [00:02:00] briefly a little bit about yourself first and foremost?
Ste Taylor: Yeah. So my name is Steve Taylor. I am, my role is the head of design for Turley. And I've been in this business about 13 years now. And yeah, I guess we'll probably, Going a little bit down memory lane in a moment, but my, yeah, my, my current job is running the design team for for Turley and we've got a fantastic team of designers across the country.
Stephen Drew: Exactly, and that's so cool. Now, While you specialize, you found your calling in urban design, we'll come to the cool projects a bit later. You started and you studied architecture, right? So
Ste Taylor: That's right.
Stephen Drew: will, as you said, we'll wind the clocks back to when all the psychedelic stuff was happening. Tell us about your initial journey.
You fancy doing architecture. Tell us how it was like for you studying architecture first and foremost.
Ste Taylor: Had a previous chat, didn't we, about the kind of people who are watching this watching this show, and I think it's so important for people of my age, my generation, I'm now approaching my mid [00:03:00] forties to remember our journeys and to remember how hard it was, how challenging it was, how how You know, complicated the journey of architecture can be, because often you can just see someone in a particular role and think they've got it made.
I had a design at Turley, it's all easy, and Easy Street, and it's not at all. And I think my journey started probably as a college student who just liked drawing. So I did design and technology at school and at college, liked drawing, went to careers advisor, asked them which direction do I go in if I like drawing, architecture was one of the avenues.
So it was certainly a stumble into That world, rather than a sense that I had a calling and a need and a desire to be an architect. It was a, it was a stumble into that into that field. So yeah, I went to Sheffield University, and I think this is a feeling that lots of people get, a bit of imposter [00:04:00] syndrome.
I remember arriving at Sheffield University in a quite, a very well established rubric. You need really top end architecture course and I was just a geezer from Warrington looking around at all these people who I'd been to Warsaw to look at the architecture, they'd been to Vienna, they'd been on gap years around South America.
And I just feel, oh God, what's going on here? Yeah, I just, I just quite like drawing buildings, so there's a definite imposter syndrome at first. There's one moment that always sticks with me, my mate Gaz from Wigan. As everyone was talking about their Private education and their sort of gap years and all of their experience in architecture.
I I was feeling more and more nervous until I got into the queue for cups of tea and I just heard this Wigan accent go. And as they go as they are Bourbons and custard creams, at that moment, I just suddenly felt at home. I thought this is someone I know. This is one of my, People from the Northwest and, we've been friends now for, God, 20, 25 years now it's [00:05:00] interesting how you remember those moments and I'm sure there are many students and architects at the start of their career who probably resonate with that sense of just thinking, Shit, do I belong here?
And maybe that there's a sense of that sticks with you a little bit, for the early part of your career. I think, hopefully the answer I'll give you at the end of this is, Yeah, I do belong here, actually. And It's taken a while to realize that. But yeah, I'm happy to run through the rest. I guess I did part one at Sheffield Uni.
Very creative school. I did enjoy it. Aside from the slight sense of feeling, A bit of a dissonance there and a bit of a sense of, whether I deserve to be there. I said, but when I came out, thrown into the world of work, like many students, I was quite useless. If I'm being honest, I've done a creative course, we've done floating amorphous architectural buildings and ideas and poetry and, looking at council states in Sheffield and looking at resolving social justice issues and all the rest of it.
And then you're sat [00:06:00] down in a, a joing architect role and they say, how does that wall meet the roof? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what the foundations are meant to look like. So there is a slight sense. You're then immediately thrown into another industry where you are felt.
Made to feel a little bit like an impostor again so I worked, worked for a couple of different practices, one in Liverpool, one in Manchester. I think probably during that period of time is when I maybe slightly fell out of love with architecture and that was when I started to move towards urban design over architecture.
Perhaps it was a that hard landing of, realization as I allude to of what architecture really is. And for the most part, it isn't poetry and competitions and, sort of Vienna concert house, sort of whole buildings. It's just industrial estates on the edge of a city. It's house building.
It's, the general day to day buildings that we see around us, in our environments. [00:07:00] And that's, maybe that was a bit of a hard landing for me, if I'm being honest.
Stephen Drew: no, fair enough, but I do think you've done something brave and I both of we've switched we've switched our careers a little bit and a lot of our listeners I frequently get messages from people saying I'm doing my part one and part two. But I'm passionate about this thing over here. So how did you move slightly away from architecture to find your specialty?
And also at the time, were you nervous about making that move stay across to something different and going away from the part one, part two, part three, that's what you should be. Anything else is a failure,
Ste Taylor: you've articulated that beautifully. I think when you think about how indoctrinated we are in the education system, it's all done on a year by year basis. Your primary school year by year. You then get to secondary school, everything's, you and your contemporaries are running on a program.
You then go to university, you're back on another program. Years one, two, and three. Gap year, years four and five. Then in, then you do your sort of part three. So yes, I definitely felt a sense of [00:08:00] what are my contemporaries doing? Or they're going back to university, they're studying to do their next two years.
Should, why am I not doing that though? Should I do it? Should I try and do it? So definitely a sense of, am I doing the right thing? But back to your question, I was working at Michael Hyde, a, a company in Manchester who is still going in architect practice in Manchester.
And I was working on it with a client, Bovis at the time and doing a master planning job with them. So I got to know them quite well. Got to know the client group. Effectively, they offered me a job during that, during the course of that project. And that was the moment, that was the moment of hinging of what am I going to do here?
Am I going to go and join client side house builder, or am I going to, carry on with my studies? So I took the jump and joined them. I don't know whether it was just the company car package and the pension or whether it's probably a load of complex issues for me at the time.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Ste Taylor: Let, led me to take that opportunity.
And really I haven't looked back since. I often, I really like The Steve Jobs quote of, your [00:09:00] life often makes sense when you join the dots backwards. Because when you're looking at it, you're looking into the future, it just looks far too difficult and scary and and unplanned.
When I look back at my career, I go yeah, all those dots make perfect sense, and they got me to where I want to be. But certainly it did not feel that way at the time, even when I started at Bovis I was thinking, is it, am I going to get the right experience here? Is this the right job for me?
Am I too limited in just doing house building? Should I be doing other projects? So that was the, that, that sort of transition in into house building and I guess from there I then saw companies, I think from that moment what I realised is I did, I do still want to be involved in design.
I did want to be working on, good quality projects and I think Bobis weren't really doing that at the time, which led me to move to Countryside. properties who were doing that at the time they were winning the sterling prize for accordion, and albeit it was an architect designed, but people who worked at countryside in the industry, you were you're aware of the fact that they were seeking [00:10:00] out better.
Projects, they were developing, higher quality projects, so that's, I made a move to, to come to properties, which was, I think, a good one for me at the time and yeah, that was when I started working on sort of regeneration projects in the city of Manchester in particular in Salford, there's several projects that are now being constructed and built, Lower Broughton in Salford is, Actually something I'm really proud to have been involved with.
It's a, quite a simple regeneration project in Salford. It was one of the biggest of its time, of its kind, back in, would have been the early mid 2000s all developed around manual for streets and design compendium and all that kind of, all that kind of stuff. So it was actually a great time to be involved.
Working for a house builder and a great time to be working on regeneration projects. So that that kind of stuff really stimulated me at the time. And I think that's my, yeah the story of my early, early career before moving on to consultancies. I can keep going.
I'll take up that more than you just thought.
Stephen Drew: I love it. [00:11:00] Maybe what would be really cool for the listeners is, so we talked about the part one part, experience that imposter syndrome when you go into the industry, but maybe a lot of our listeners who are part ones are gearing up to it. How does the role you moved into, how different is it in terms of like, How does the role you Role and Responsibility.
So when you moved over to Bovis and you're doing all these projects is how different, what's a typical day to day on the entry level like? Are you working on these large scale master plans? Is it more conceptual? Is it more about the big picture? What's it like?
Ste Taylor: Architect, I wouldn't say it's a huge transition, in that the company I work for, the architect practice I work for, specialised in residential development. To go from an architect practice who specialises in residential development, to then a house builder who just does residential development, it didn't seem like a huge transition, albeit, I guess for some of the people watching, you have More options, if you're working with an architect practice who might do [00:12:00] resi, commercial, leisure etc.
You've got different outlets for creativity and for your architectural expression and experience. If you're working for an architect practice in general, because then if you go to a house builder, you're just going to be working on housing led schemes. They're not gonna be saying design this port or design this hotel.
It's just going to be housing. So I guess in that respect, you are going to be limiting your Um, opportunities if you were at some point wanting to branch off into different areas of architecture but in terms of day to day, in the architect practice, my, my role was very much learning the ropes, almost being like an architectural technician as a part one, you're just told, here's a bunch of details to be drawn.
Draw them up, wall to floor to, foundation sectional drawings through buildings. So it's very much learn how buildings work. That's the way I would reflect on that early part of my career at the architecture practice. And that then continued a little bit into the house builder.
Albeit, [00:13:00] as a house builder, I was given more free reign to design, actually. I was given more free reign to, to do master planning, to, to start laying out the designs and, Composing the places, that came a little bit more quickly so I had a bit more leeway, I think, on the joint client side to to lead on those designs rather than just necessarily be handed the, the details to draw up.
Stephen Drew: yeah, no, it makes sense. And the one thing I wanted to touch upon, having looked at what you've done, you mentioned or when we were talking about it. There was the crash in 2007, right? So before you got to Turley,
Ste Taylor: Yes.
Stephen Drew: a turbulent time. So it was turbulent before Turley, and you had to, you go through a lot.
Maybe, because we've just been through the pandemic, I'm sure that there will always be something that will come up and down in people's careers. What, maybe, what did you experience? How did you ride through the storm of that crazy time?
Ste Taylor: Yeah I guess the summary of that is that it was horrible and painful and [00:14:00] distressing at times, but it's one of those experiences I wouldn't want to change. I think a lot of people talk about that, don't they, in their lives, that Sometimes through trauma comes that experience and that sort of galvanizes you a little bit, and I certainly feel that way.
So I suppose that just, recounting the experience, the the painful experience, Stephen, of that period of time. So I was at Countryside Properties. I'd only been there about a year when the, you could see the walls coming in, the whole industry was collapsing. But I suppose I was only in my early 20s.
Early 30, approaching 30 maybe give or take so I was a bit naive to it I hadn't really lived through a recession before I didn't, I suppose I'm different now as a, 20 years on, nearly 15, 20 years on. My understanding of the economics of countries is a bit more advanced, but at the time it was just like, keep doing your job, they seem to like you, keep working hard and maybe everything will be okay.
But I think what I almost witnessed in countryside, they owned a building, a three story building. [00:15:00] And over a period of months, they went from occupying The whole building, to occupying half, to occupying a third, to occupying a quarter, at which point you're going, the writing's on the wall here, so lo and behold, I got made redundant after a few rounds of redundancy at Crucified, and at that point it was quite frightening, actually but that's what the silver lining was that My contacts and friends in the industry almost were what kind of got me through that period.
So when I left Countryside, there was a a client, actually a consultant called Edore at the time. They've since been taken over by AECOM, who were doing work with Countryside at the time. So my boss at Countryside got me in touch with the master planning lead, a guy called Mick Timpson at Edore.
So within fairly short order, I'd left Countryside and joined EDAW, thinking, actually, happy days, because I'd got, I'd been at client side for a few years, and I [00:16:00] was feeling like it was a bit of a constraint, creative constraint, perhaps, and I felt like it was actually a good moment in time to go to consultancy.
And EDAW had such a wonderful, um, reputation, landscape led, urbanism, regeneration projects, did a bit of architecture as well. So it was fantastic for me. I was suddenly working in the city of Manchester. It was like my dream job. I'd come through this period, shit, this is working out for me, this is okay, this is going to be okay.
Working in a funky building with creative people from the UK and across the world a number of projects that were international which I guess at the time had helped Edo weather the early part of the storm. So that first move was amazing actually was great. But then again, lo and behold, Recession continues, market conditions don't improve throughout 2008, so I get made redundant again for the second time, and that was like a real sort of blow.
I remember that being like a physical blow, just when I got the [00:17:00] call, and it was like, just like in tears, and just thinking, oh god, what, where am I going to go? This, everything's collapsing. Is there a role for me in the world of design? Maybe I'll just have to retrain and do something different.
So you have that period of reflection, which again, didn't last a great deal of time because Mick, who was the head of the design team at EDAW, then set up. DPP Shape, with another colleague of mine, Sheila McNerney, who's now really senior in Manchester City Council. So then I get another role, again, consultancy role working with creative, interesting, dynamic people which then got me through another sort of 18 months of that period before, then again, DPP Shape.
Contract, they wind up that business. 'cause they just, unfortunately it was, the business model was reliant quite a lot on public sector tenders and 'cause that's where there was still a little bit of legacy money on those kind of projects. But when that money run out was two, 2010 yeah, that, that business wind up as well.
So I was [00:18:00] three years into this. I was in that kind of fight or flight period and on to my third job and wondering whether this was an industry that was just repelling me and whether I was in the right place or not. Very tumultuous period of time. But, that's what I was saying before, when you're in that kind of fight or flight period, mental state, you become incredibly creative, incredibly nimble, flexible, and you have to be dynamic.
You have to think in different ways. You have to win work in different ways. You have to, be light on your feet, and that sort of period of time and that, energetic, response that was needed at the time stayed with me, certainly. And I think I reflect on Quite positively, actually.
And I've done so at several points in my career. In fact, for all the viewers, I really highly recommend redundancy. As bizarre as that may, as bizarre as that may seem, because you reflect on what you want to do. Actually, you don't, you're [00:19:00] having to stop and it's a, it's an arresting moment.
You have to stop, reflect, look around you. What do I want to do? Where do I want to be? Why do I want to work? And it really helps to sort of shape. So yeah, it was, yeah, as I say, difficult, challenging, but not something I would change. And then I guess, again, 2010, left DPPshape and got an opportunity at Turley again through a sort of mutually shared contact.
He put me in touch with the guy who was running the design team at the time, Matt Quayle, and yeah, and joined them in 2010. So yeah, it's been and I've been here I've been here ever since I managed to, work my way up through the business over that period of time, and yeah that's my journey, Stephen.
That's my story.
Stephen Drew: you've done well, but don't worry. I've been made redundant too. And I agree. I think the trap where everyone falls in at first, you take it very personal, but then you have to just remind yourself that it's outside factors. Typically that's the nature of redundancy. It's been, it's different than [00:20:00] being sacked.
However, when you've been made redundant, it doesn't feel that way. And you quite quickly, you blur the lines, but I agree. It's, and I think sometimes where it also can be useful is. It's a bit of a circuit shock, isn't it? And you realize, Oh, actually you can get acclimatized to a scenario and actually it gets pulled away from you.
So I do think it sets you up to be more resilient. So
Ste Taylor: a moment in time, a bit like if you're ever changing jobs or careers, you have a moment to reflect on your achievements as well, and actually when you stop and leave a business and look at your own CV, that's the first time you've probably looked at your CV in several years, and it, you can look at it and go, actually, All right, I can do stuff.
I've got some skills, and often when you're in a job and it's not something you think about per se, you just, you're just getting through each project and progressing in a business and you're not stopping to think necessarily about your own CV, your own specific [00:21:00] skills and experience.
Stephen Drew: yeah, no, it makes sense. The last thing I'll say in that, as I remember myself when I was a part two, had been made redundant, I thought it must be a terrible part two. And then. I fell into recruitment and I get to see a lot of Part 2s and then I realized actually it was okay. It wasn't too bad, but it's easy to blame yourself.
What I was thinking, Steve, actually, because you told me we landed now in the part where you joined early and I thought would be really cool if we just mixed up slightly and if we can show the listeners of, if you're watching the video, Definitely have a look at this just so people can visually see what Tilly is.
So I'm going to bring up their website really quickly now. And as well as that, we've got a brochure, which I'm as so viewers, I've brought this up and this is all the projects these worked on throughout all the years. I'll be, let's be kind. It's a bit of an overview. You've done them all.
I don't want to take forever and quiz you and everything, but I'll start at the front, and maybe you can just [00:22:00] us a little bit of what it's like to work at Turley and the kind of projects you work on and all that jazz.
Ste Taylor: of course. I'll start with, why we produce this stuff, because I guess we're always out there trying to win work. We're trying to work with different clients, new clients, trying to, build relationships with existing clients. So it's always good to take stock and put, this is like your, your portfolio.
This is our, this is the sort of the Turley portfolio documents. When we're going out there pitching, we need to show, visit, Visual examples of what we do and what we're all about. So in this document really is it's a compendium of different types of projects, different clients, different areas of the country.
So you're trying to cover all bases with this document to convince people really that you're the right consultancy to do the job. Also, graphics. Graphics are really important in what we do. When you're producing these documents, be as visual as you can possibly be, because I think quite often in our industry, people just look at an image like the one you've got on the screen and go, okay, that makes sense.
Central Retail Park is [00:23:00] high density residential city of Manchester. Okay, these people, You probably know what they're doing. They produce, compelling graphics. Yeah, that's the right business for us. Other projects in there, like this one, this is a competition we didn't actually win, but a fantastic project to be involved with actually.
We're working for Beijing Chinese, BCGI, they're called Beijing China company. Investment Company, and they were looking for multi regenerational projects across Wirral. A lot of this, these projects are now up and running. But as I said, not with those, unfortunately, but often I think with competitions, it's still worth sharing
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Ste Taylor: work because not everything gets built right.
Put it, get it in the portfolio. Other stuff like this large scale Housing Schemes, this part of the Manchester, what was called the Greater Manchester Strategic Framework for Peel, so 4, 000 homes in Bury. Other ones, West Cheltenham mixed use of sort of an innovation tech employment site at the south and then a residential scheme to the north.
I think that, I think this is [00:24:00] also another project that's underway by GCHQ actually in Cheltenham, so GCHQ is just off the map, so a project where we actually start to learn a little bit about security levels. Again, this is. It's great in our industry, when you do projects that are so diverse, you're just always learning, every day is a school day.
And part of that West Chiltern project was they wanted to decant stuff from the main GCHQ building onto a different site. So you're then learning about security levels, what level of clearance do people need? How are they going to access this employment site? What are the services and amenities that those kind of employees will need?
So it was fascinating, actually, to be involved with that one.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Very cool. And so we got a few more as well. Tell me if you're fed up now, Steve. This is a
Ste Taylor: No, you just quit doing that stuff. Do that slow scroll through is perfectly fine. That's fine. Yeah, this is another new settlement. Again, this is going to be really important. New government, Kirstein was talking about 20 [00:25:00] new settlements, I think he wants across the UK. These kind of projects and experience in these kind of projects is going to be really important.
How do we deliver them? How do you access them? What services do they need? What triggers a primary school and a secondary school, local center, employment opportunities? How do you make it a truly sustainable place? This is another, actually, part of the original Garden Village Projects we've got we've got one up on a competition for one in Knowsley again a couple of thousand homes and employment opportunity in Knowsley, that's again, now house builders are on site and developing it alongside that port work, we've done several harbours, ports there's one here at Milford Haven, I think one further down might be for Aberdeen, where you've got lots of ports and harbours actually Reassessing their land holdings, actually, particularly for Aberdeen, for example, actually it's not in this version, it might be in a different version actually looking at their business model, these companies are now looking at the future of oil and gas, for example and having to, to, to fundamentally change how they're going to do business in the next sort of [00:26:00] 25 years.
Again, a wonderful opportunity to learn when you're doing these projects. So yeah, that's a quick answer. We are about to update this document. So there's a I'll, when I come back on, if you invite me I'll share the, I'll share the later version with a whole suite of wonderful new project examples.
Stephen Drew: They were still really cool, and it's quite nice to see that maybe some people, as you say, if they've already been built or whatever, people might be involved in it, but it's really cool to see the process. Yes, of course, we'd like to see the next brochure at some point. Really cool.
So when we were discussing this episode, we wanted to talk about. Your career coming into the industry which is really interesting. Now people have visualized what you do which is awesome because I think it's important that architects or people studying architecture know they can do this stuff and clearly you enjoy it.
One of the other things though you were passionate about was design coding and this is a little bit, now I dipped out of architecture. A few years ago and my design coding and my knowledge of it is very [00:27:00] little, Steve. So what would be really cool is if you could tell everyone what, first of all, why you wanted to talk about it and why is it so important and what is it really?
And then we can go through it together.
Ste Taylor: Okay, I'll start then with this, the simple point of what is it. I guess a design code for an area is distilling the sort of urban, architectural, landscape kind of rules almost for a place. There's always a tension between how prescriptive. You should be for development, and I've worked on design codes that are extremely prescriptive, where they'll actually show each development parcel and say, you must put a house in this parcel.
It must be set back by two meters. It must be no more than three stories high, or you can have a very loose code that sort of just shows an area. And gives you a sort of a rough density and a sort of a structure of roads and green spaces. But effectively, you should be able to ostensibly [00:28:00] codify good design for a place.
And I think there's, there's a lot of weight put on design expertise, which is, we do fundamentally understand how to create good places. And largely, there are rules and regulations. As a student of architecture. These rules and regulations quite often go back thousands of years, about proportion and scale.
You can go to a Roman square that's thousands of years old, and it just works. And it works because of a whole series of, you parameters and coding that are still valid today. So that's a quick understanding of design coding. I'll layer that with a bit more information and knowledge around why it's important now.
I Myself and a colleague, Neil Harvey, just had a secondment with the Office of Place. The Office of Place are a quango of DLOC now. I think there it's MCLG. Renamed Ministry of Communities and Local Government. We had a six month [00:29:00] secondment with them because they were funding, providing funding for The first 25 design codes across the UK.
The reason that they were there at the point of commissioning these design code exercises is because, again, going back, just to try and give you the context, in the national model, Design Code, and then the National Model Design Guide that followed, I think, in about 2020, 2021. It was suggested in there that all councils would have a design code.
A, a sort of a promise in the document that we will shape good quality design through design codes for every authority in the UK. Roll on a few years, they're now trying to do that. That's the first 25. Codes were funded, and various local authorities started to develop their own code, like Trafford up in Manchester and the Lake District, and several others across the UK.
We then got involved to [00:30:00] appraise those, so myself and Harvey got involved to appraise those, the first 25, and start to understand What was a good code? What was a bad code? What's working? What doesn't work? How could we tighten it and sharpen it and use more prescriptive language to make sure that it doesn't slip into just becoming a bit of guidance.
It's got to remain as a very sort of stringent code that people will adhere to and then after that they've then now funded a further 11 coding exercises across the UK. So there's lots of authorities now with with money to develop design codes for their authorities. Now, I guess for me personally, that's the program of coding that's happening in the UK.
For me personally, I think coding is a good way of, Shaping places. I think, some of the codes that came out of the original, what I would, the urban Renaissance period in the early two thousands have created really great places. Optin is one that I keep coming back to.
They're [00:31:00] still using a design code there, optin in North Hamptonshire. There's actually a project that were involved with back in the early two thousands. And I see a real parallel with the moment now, the sort of zeitgeist moment now and the moment. of the new Labour government in 1997.
Because in 1997 that gave rise to CABE, Commission for Architecture in the Built Environment which some of the older people, Viewers may remember that was then, the Lord Rogers then produced the Open Renaissance towards an Open Renaissance document back in 2000, and then that led to the creation of the Manual for Streets and the Open Design Compendium, and we had all those wonderful moments where Labour, new Labour government coming in, they were really Promoting good quality design, placemaking, and it was really going up the, the sort of the hierarchy of importance for developers.
I think it's somewhat drifted and dipped during the, the tutorial years. I'm not sure design was seen as, as important as it was in perhaps the early 2000s, mid 2000s. We're now back [00:32:00] at a point where the government is saying we want to build up one and a half million homes. And if we want to avoid.
Remaking the problems of the past. Perhaps if you look at 80s development, 90s development, it was a lot of cul de sac, standard house type product, not creating good places, not aging very well. We want to avoid doing that. We have to You know, control the design quality as, 300, if we're going to get to 300, 000 homes a year, we want to make sure the shackles aren't off completely to just for people have them to just go and build anything.
Build something that's of good quality. And I do truly believe that doing it through coding is a would be a successful way of doing that and certainly the government are now, it's still investing. InDesign codes for local authorities and yeah, I think in the next few years, hopefully, what we'll see is the products of that.
And that's, still to be seen really, whether design coding is going to lead to better places, but it's still a bit early to tell, [00:33:00] based on the, what the Office for Place have been doing in the last sort of couple of years. So that's a brief romp. As I say, it's another topic I could talk a great length about, Stephen, but a brief romp through coding.
Stephen Drew: We're like you said, but we're at an interesting time, isn't it? So maybe should things change then we can always jump in on it. I had two quick questions for you. So on the theme, we talked about new government, hopefully the housing, it's very important. It's very important. However, aside from that, looking towards the future, are you feeling.
Optimistic Steve at the moment, or is there anything you're excited for that you think is coming down the pipeline? Because we've left the pandemic,
Ste Taylor: Yes.
Stephen Drew: we've been recovering and working our way out. But do you think the outlook going forward, 2020, end of 2024 onwards, is Positive. Are you excited about anything?
Ste Taylor: I do. I do. I think in short, yes, I do feel positive. I think the last few [00:34:00] years, as you say, have been really good. tumultuous in trying to work through COVID as a whole is a whole other podcast, I imagine.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Ste Taylor: And then even then the sort of slight bubble we had post COVID. So we found that there's this suppression of work and then in 2022 there was this slight ballooning of work and projects where things that have been contracted and held.
We're then all, investors were then spending their money and developers were building stuff again. We've then plateaued somewhat, and there's been the cost of living crisis and obviously wars, international wars, which have meant, that the UK economy has not been where it wanted to be. So it's been, we've been bumping along, I think, the last few years. And I think many people in our industry have been slightly nervous in the last couple of financial years. But certainly now, There is a lot of renewed confidence. And I think sometimes, yes, the government have got money to spend, but sometimes there is a value to the new, there is a value to [00:35:00] the inspiration of.
New government, new people, new ideas new vision for the country. And that has a positive impact on people's, perception of their own lives, the perception of industry and I guess their own confidence as to whether they're going to buy a house. Because ultimately, the market is dictated by people.
It's whether people are going to spend their own money. Hopefully, if interest rates keep coming down, People will then decide, to buy a house and then suddenly then that triggers to back up the chain to us because we'll then get to design more projects because, people on the, members of the public are buying homes and spending their money.
Yeah, I do feel confident. I do feel confident. We are finding more inquiries coming in the last couple of months alone since the new government. Again, more developers with more confidence to to invest. Really to, and I guess investors, they're not always looking at the next few months.
They might be looking at the next, two years, three years, five years. And when you've got a government coming in saying, we want to build a million and a half units. And by the way, on day one, we're going to redraft the NPPF to make it [00:36:00] easier. And that's what the redraft of the NPPF is effectively doing, it's making development easier easier to get approval fewer barriers, fewer limitations on development.
So it's really like a great opportunity for us in our industry to capitalize on that. So yeah, very positive.
Stephen Drew: Good. Oh, that's nice to know. We have a bit of good news and positive sentiment especially after all we've been through together as a whole in the collective design industry, often like canaries in the mines, isn't it? We're the edge of all the economic rumbling. So it's nice to know. It's a bit positive.
The last question I was going to ask is because in 2024, there's been a lot of innovation, especially and people talking about it in terms of artificial intelligence, the innovations there on the tech front. And I was wondering if you start to see that bleed into your world, Steve and how do you feel about it?
If it is, or do you get a sense of which direction that's [00:37:00] going by any chance?
Ste Taylor: Yes I've got a personal interest in AI, like a lot of people. I've got friends who work in the industry. I often sit around with some of my mates over a coffee and talk about what their, day in the life is for them as AI consultants. And I think the world has been On a pendulum swing of either, everything's going to stay the same and it'll have no impact, to it's going to take everyone's jobs and it's going to destroy the world as we know it.
And as with most things, it will end up, I imagine, broadly in the middle. And when I talk to my friends who know a lot more about it than I do, it lands at around, it'll be an assistant for you. It'll be a, for an architect practice or design firm like us, it'll be like having a few students.
in the office, helping you out with certain tasks. So they're not rounded professionals. They can't go off and do all of the work themselves because they'll make mistakes, but they can do some of the tasks that you would give more junior members of staff. And that's where it'll sit. [00:38:00] So I don't think it's going to be, Armageddon by any stretch.
Siri can barely even understand my voice. I'm not that, I'm not that worried about it. And I think but I think it's worth investing in. We've been running a few sort of small scale projects testing how we might use AI, with which services, within the business, what kind of tasks can AI do.
How can we work with other partner firms to run models and just, we're dipping our toe in, is the way I'd describe it. I think that's the right place to be. I think, yeah, what you have to realize, we were realizing this over the last sort of few months, is you're going to have to fail a project.
It's not like a normal design project. You can't be given a master plan and say yeah, we know what we're doing. It'll cost X amount of pounds and in a couple of months we'll have you a master plan with AI and innovation You might run a project you might spend 10 grand running a project with a consultancy and it might not yield any results You might just find that the thing you wanted it to do, it can't.
It can't do it. But that's [00:39:00] what innovation is really, isn't it? At its heart is pointing in two or three different directions. Can we try this? Can we try that? How about, how about what cost savings on how we do our drawings? How about cost savings on how we do constraints mapping? How about cost savings on how we assess applications across the country?
And then maybe through the two or three projects, you might hit upon something, a kernel of an idea. So that you can then build on but I think we're in that we're in that space as many other companies are and I think that's where we should be just in those early stages of. Learning, I think, learn, make some mistakes, try a few things out, try to build a few little applications and models of your own.
And then bit by bit, in a few years time, we may all have a system that becomes like that architectural assistant in your office who can, just provide that support. And that's what we ask for a lot of tech, isn't it? You look back decades, 50 years, 100 years, often at technological advances, it's just been, how do you [00:40:00] make your life a little bit easier?
How does the washing machine make your life a bit easier? And I think the AI will, will probably sit in that in that sort of sphere.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Fairly interesting. And having done one or two of these chats now, it's interesting how people like yourself, at the point in the career where you've done this great stuff, all feel the same. And it seems to me that the pattern is really, it could be that the AI does the repetitive, dull stuff, and actually allows you to do the design.
Yeah. It doesn't sound the doom and gloom as, yeah, oh, they're going to replace it.
Ste Taylor: Yeah, I don't think so. I've done a few public inquiries, and public inquiries involve thousands of pages of information. And a lot of the role in a public inquiry is just making sure everything is cross referenced, making sure the design evidence is cross referenced with the planning and the ecology and the landscape and the highways.
And in a way, you don't need to do that. Humans don't need to do that. And in short, we're not very good at it. Let the computer do things that they are [00:41:00] better than us at doing. They're not as good at independent creative thinking, but they are really good at cross referencing documents. CD79. 23 cross references on four occasions with these four documents.
And that means there's a whole lot of painful work that I then don't have to do. Just re reading and double checking and triple checking. And then at the end of my human analysis, there'll still be mistakes. Whereas if an AI can do that, then it'll just take away 20 percent of pain, and then it allows me to make a code and design argument in a planning
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Focus on the master plan. So I agree. And my attention to detail is questionable. I think that I agree. Chat GPT. I love it. Anything to double check, double checking spellings and stuff. What a great thing. So
Ste Taylor: It's what you need from it, and even just very briefly, my brother in law's got into running. He went into chat GBT and just said, can you please prepare me [00:42:00] a half marathon training plan for a half marathon I'm doing in three months time? Lo and behold, it scrapes all the information for the internet, It gives him a fantastic, and I did quite a bit of running, so I just sense checked it for him.
I went, yeah, that looks pretty damn good, actually. There you go. Perfect use for AI. So yeah, it's, I think it's going to be really interesting time. But I think we'll still have jobs at the end of it, Stephen. I think the people watching still go into architecture and design. It's just, the human brain is still going to be worth something in 25 years.
Stephen Drew: Then the last thing I'll add to it is, you're right, because, while we know it can do everything in theory, it was quite an interesting statistic that TrackGPT, I think they published it try it for a bit and then just don't bother, right? Because, again, it all comes down to what is the application?
What is the use? But it's having that case party and then having someone driving the instructions also is very important. And that's what I've learned as well is you got to spend [00:43:00] time actually developing the code, the pro, and that's the human bit of getting the instructions. And it's interesting that you mentioned that it's a bit like a student because as a little bit of management, isn't it?
You have to get the brief, right? You have to brief the person to get the outcome. Someone will go off on a tangent, so
Ste Taylor: It'll just make stuff up, all of that kind of, a lot of these models, these large language models, they just make shit up.
Stephen Drew: They hallucinate, don't they? I love, I It's
Ste Taylor: once, one thing that we try, again, like one of those challenging parts of our job of finding perfect images that are going to articulate what we're going to propose.
So often you want to do mood boards, you want to do image, imagery in your documents that gives the client, An idea of what the place would be like. So I tried in some of these AI models to generate an image, to generate an image of a contemporary home overlooking a water body in a large city.
And it'll generate something, but often it's all over the shop. You look, you zoom into the building and it's just a weird [00:44:00] amalgam of different shapes that it's just thrown together. Because it doesn't really know what a house is. It doesn't really fully know, understand what it's meant to create.
So it just cheats. That's that, and it does that on, obviously, it does that on ChatGPT, if in doubt, just make stuff up. And obviously in our line of work, making stuff up really isn't great. So yeah,
Stephen Drew: and it's very convincing, isn't it? When it's yeah. From this day, and then you look and you're like that's not true. Very good to check. Thank you Steve. The last thing before you go, I always like to say to the guest to, they can flip the script around and ask me a question if you'd like.
Before we log off, is there anything since we met that you'd like to ask me? And that you could be
Ste Taylor: On the same lines about my own journey, I guess then when you look back on your own career, are there any regrets for you? Do you ever feel like, God, I really wish I was in architecture? Or do you think actually you've just found something that really suits you and suits who you are?
So are you now more at peace with the career path you've taken?
Stephen Drew: yeah. The [00:45:00] short answer is yeah, I think it was the right thing to do. It's like quite ironic because at the time when I was in the job that I didn't want to do, I remember clock watching. I used to love everyone in the practice. I would chat to anyone to get out of doing the real work.
Go to the kitchen, go, Hey Richard, how are your daughters doing at college? Yeah, I knew the tricks. I knew what I was doing. But ironically, I think when you find something you enjoy, then the time goes quicker. So I where I was going is ironic. Now I have my business, all this stuff, I work more, which was the original reason why I didn't want to be there.
But what I would say is, The stuff you learn in architecture, and this is the bit I cannot stop reiterating, is that we learn so much, even if you go on to different things, like crits, it's like pitching, it's the same thing, it's a very important business skill, it's lots of,
Ste Taylor: Crits are brutal.
Stephen Drew: yeah, and a bit like you mentioned earlier, redundancy toughens you up, crits toughen you up, presenting a project cohesively, To some people who will [00:46:00] tear it down
Ste Taylor: I've seen many a people, many a tough guy being brought to tears through a crit. I'm
Stephen Drew: brutal. Yeah. And, and we've all done it like, just being at that printer late at night, almost in two years, just come on, just print, just say we've all been there.
Ste Taylor: sorry to cut in, I still remember I was a visiting architect. I was told I created a fascist building in my final year of architecture. I was like, geez, I didn't realize that was, I wasn't intending on it. Of course it was in hindsight, it was just someone trying to sound clever, but at the time it hits you quite hard.
You're like,
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Ste Taylor: But it's just someone trying to be politically clever and trying to bring you down a peg or two, which in hindsight you go, I feel sorry for that person,
Stephen Drew: know. I remember when one of my projects, it was the mid crits, before the end. And it was like, this plan is devoid of joy. And I was like, just absolutely.
Ste Taylor: turn around and say, just like you are? That was necessary, wasn't it?
Stephen Drew: no, I'd love to. That's one of the moments, you're in the [00:47:00] shower and you're like, screw you. And then it's 20 years later and you're
Ste Taylor: Yeah,
Stephen Drew: at the time, of course you you're learning. But yeah, so many skills that we learn that makes really good professional. And I've seen architects go on to, be really good business people and that's another thing because we go oh architecture we don't learn business not all architects are good businessmen but that can be true for some but it also some of the most savvy people I know in the commercial space Come from architecture.
So there's loads of stuff you learn. And that's why I love to speak to people like yourself that have gone on to do things a little bit different. It can be, whether it's still in our, in the design industry, it could be different scales or, something different. There's a story again about an architect that set up like a hairdresser, studio charges a lot.
And it's I look at the hair, like a section and all this stuff. And it's probably a really good hairdresser. But you know where I'm going with this. It's wow. Okay, cool. That makes sense. And I can see people buying into it. And it done really [00:48:00] well. And I know people that open restaurants who have the degree.
So yeah. So those are roundabout thing, but yes. But the last thing I want to add to that is what you mentioned earlier, which is what you said about the Steve Jobs quote, on hindsight, look back. And I remember
Quit and you're part free. And you have a few friends are like, are you sure? And then, they were still supportive, but they're like, are you sure?
And you knew they were going like, Oh, I don't know what the fuck Steve's doing, but whatever, good luck to him. And then, but, and then I, cause this is my third business and the first two failed spectacularly, and you learn from that, now people go, Oh yeah, I always knew you do it and you're like, bullshit.
I remember you there and it was different. So I was, what I'm trying to say is. Yeah, only when you get there and do something different will the naysayers go, oh yeah, but I think you've got to go for that lonely journey to get there, which is full of redundancies, full of trials and tribulations. And the last thing I would say though, is on [00:49:00] that journey, still have to be quite humble on your way, because especially if you're switching I see a lot of people that try to go to a developer and they go I've been a great architect for 10 years, so I'm on 50k and I'll ask a developer for 80k.
And it's no, if you're going to switch, you need to learn all this stuff and they're going to invest in you. So you've got to be humble pie, learn the stuff and then go ahead. It's not easy straight, straight away, if that makes sense,
Ste Taylor: I'm sure there are many Architects maybe tuning into this, Architects have got somewhat of a reputation for being a little bit arrogant, but they still hold on to that a little bit. You do still come across that in our industry, but architect is king.
So yeah, there's a certain, there's a certain amount of ego to be quashed, I would say, in our industry. And yeah, the more kind of collaborative you can be and more, like you say, willing to learn, open, be vulnerable and manage your ego is good advice, I think.
Stephen Drew: yeah and the only thing I'll add to that, I understand why sometimes, because architects get a hard knock, it's a lot of responsibility, [00:50:00] we know it's not the high paid sector, but yeah, don't push that. Don't push that stuff onto other people, right? Be the humble person that people come to.
But thank you so much, Lee. I really enjoyed this episode. If the listeners want to get in touch with you, how do they find you? And how do they find Terlene?
Ste Taylor: You think you've already pulled up the website. I'm on there as the head of design. There you go. I've also got LinkedIn. Buy all accounts, connect with me on LinkedIn. Or there are my email address which I'm, can you put email addresses on, on, on the chat? Can you?
Stephen Drew: I can. Now I've got your permission, I will, I'm always wary. I don't want the
Ste Taylor: want tile manufacturers contacting me or people who pour concrete, if that's okay.
Stephen Drew: maybe what we'll do is we won't say it. So the spam bots go out there, but if you really want to contact Steve, then you need to load the video up and look at this now. And you'll find them.
So there you go. So work for it and then you can get there, but thank you so much. They, I really [00:51:00] appreciate this. I'm going to end the live stream now. Stay there one second, but I want to say thank you in the audience for tuning in, if you like this. Do get in touch with state and it's always cool to see all the different scales of architecture and the roles within the design industry as this, a little bit different, a little bit of consultancy, a little bit of client side.
Very cool. More content to come. Have a good day wherever you are. I'm gonna end the livestream now. Thank you so much. Take care everyone. Bye-Bye.