He Started His Own Architecture Practice at 29

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Unknown
Guys. I am in South London at the moment because we are being invited by someone that's put it all in the line, has built up their own studio. They on the board. Winner.

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Unknown
I always romanticized about the idea of doing it. I also wanted to be a bit younger in doing it. They've got all the cool projects doing it large, but we're in 2026, baby, and it ain't that easy. Something needs to change where people have got to get rid of this perception that small, newer practice is still more risky than going with the same old, same old, same old to actually very large, have incredibly high turnovers.

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Unknown
And actually, in a time of uncertainty is potentially more risky because they've got a lot more to lose. What it feels like, especially in the commercial sector, is in order to network with the right people, you need to be in the brave. But then the cost of getting in the room is obscene.

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Unknown
If I was to say it was really easy, it's not.

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Unknown
Absolutely it's not. It's hard. Who teaches you how to build and run an architecture practice? Is it all done in architecture? I'm not so sure. We're going to ask someone ourselves. Come with me. Let's go.

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Unknown
Alex, how are you? Say, get to see how you say I'm all right. Here we are. Yeah. So we got the room over here. Oh, here we go, here we go. What?

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Unknown
I'm here with Alex Sutton of Saturn Studios. Mighty stomachaches studio Saturn. Oh, that. They feel like. Can you paint the

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Unknown
lay of the land of the reality for someone to so many hats? You're in the business. Yeah, you're you're the teacher. You're the mentor in the disciplinary. I'm going to has to do it. And you are also a work winner.

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Unknown
What is the process of winning work life and where is the baby cosmos. Hey, I think we live in a in a very immediate society. Now. Things like fast fashion. Yeah, everything has to be instant. Everything asking now I want it now I want it now I want it. Everyone does appreciate design until they have to pay for it.

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Unknown
There's a second irony with it all how it can mean you distill the thousand hours of mistakes I've made. But

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Unknown
what advice would you give to people?

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Unknown
Hello everyone! I am here in South London because I want to learn about what it's like to run an architectural practice now. I was part one and part two and I never got there myself. But other people have and we're going to learn from them together. What is it like to run an architecture practice while I am here with an award winning architect who has done it themselves?

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Unknown
And I'm going to let them introduce it because I keep getting everything wrong. Alex Sutton, how are you? Are you okay? I'm good. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And now is Studio Sutton's studio Sutton now sat in the studio city of sun Award winning afternoon practice. Thank you for bearing with me as well. The audience knows what I'm like.

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Unknown
But more importantly. So how have you been lately? Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, it's been an interesting few months. I think it's, the war doesn't seem. It doesn't seem to be getting any better, so that's always positive, but, No. Otherwise, personally, I can't complain. Yeah. I mean, every business owner I speak to at the moment, including myself, we are that.

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Unknown
Yeah, we'll be all right by them. There's so much good stuff that he's done as well. Before we talk about the fries and I would like to win back is like for me, there's always that moment when you go into architecture decides to study it. And for me, I was always playing online game SimCity, doing all that stuff.

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Unknown
And that was my gateway into doing architecture. How about yourself? Do you always think that you wanted to become an architect? Well, I think it definitely came to me earlier on. I think I grew up in a family who was connected to the real estate world, particularly my father. So he was a graphic designer, and ran a marketing agency, particularly for commercial real estate.

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Unknown
So I was exposed to a lot of that world, that was going on, particularly through the 90s. You know, he was taking singed buildings and having to give them identity and brands. So I was always surrounded by plants and drawings and I guess the creative. Yeah, yeah, family. So I was always interested in getting in into that world and seeing where it goes.

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Unknown
And I think generally through through school. And then obviously, you know, I had my career that yeah, going into that field. So it was never a question. I don't think there was. It may have been a few other creative professions that I may have dabbled in, but I was quite set on wanting to get into that sphere.

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Unknown
Got you. And then so what union did you end up? Do you. Part one. Part two. And so I ended up at the. That's, Yeah. Okay. I did the part behind. Yeah. So not only London and I was born and bred in London, so it was, I never left, even though I tried. I actually tried to go to bath, when I left school, I tried to escape London, but London wasn't having it, clearly, so I ended up staying.

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Unknown
I just went up the northern line a few stops, and did the by at What's the Bartlett undergrad Masters and part 301. I got a subtle hat trick. You, you, like the at that Paris style, but, hey, I mean, I know people that love it as well. So he went to the that that's really cool.

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Unknown
And then for your part one or part two, just really, really quickly, what was that first role in industry where you at the time applying for anyway? Do you have 1 or 2 practices that you had in mind? Interestingly, coming out of undergraduate, I wasn't 100% sure exactly where I was going to end up or what I was going to do.

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Unknown
I think I ended up shopping around a bit. I mean, interviews at different practices. I think, but I actually ended up at a small practice, not too far from here, actually, down in shot Thames, called several they were more focused on interior architecture, particularly workspace. Bread and butter was a feature of work. Actually.

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Unknown
They were probably one of the pioneers of the modern workspace that we now accept as the norm or the way the world is going today. And I went into that not really knowing what to expect. And actually came away with a huge appreciation for, looking at buildings from the inside out and with a design led focus.

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Unknown
What was amazing with them is being a small team. We were thrown into the deep end. Yes. So we were doing large projects, on an international scale. But with a very small team and, with a really strong focus on design quality and putting people first. I learned a huge amount through them, and I was with them all the way through until actually, so part one, part two, and I got my part three with them as well.

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Unknown
And, and then I left them and I set up studio certain. Well done. So, I, they were a huge foundation for what we have then tried to continue with, very interesting. And then so you took the plunge, right. So for me, that was when I was in architecture. And even now you speak to some people and it was always their dream job.

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Unknown
And I sit there, I still have one friend at the moment. I can't name them because they sell out the outfits for practice. But I'll have a few beers and I'm like, when's the debut coming up? Do you think you'll you always, in the back of your mind, felt like you were wanting to open your own studio, or did it happen organically?

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Unknown
I think I always romanticized the idea of doing it. It's it was also, I think, a timing thing as well. I like oh, I like the idea of doing it. I also wanted to be a bit younger in doing it. So I actually set up studio sets when I was 29. Yeah. Because I, I was seeing a lot of people set, you know, that studios up later in life, you know, 40s, 50s.

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Unknown
But I didn't, you know, if we were going to be successful, I wanted to still, you know, be young enough to enjoy. Yeah. You know, the fruits of what that studio was doing. And my previous company, they were starting to wind down, you know, organically, naturally, as part of life. And there was a moment that where it was a question of, do I just go work somewhere else or do I give it a go?

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Unknown
And I think what I liked about where I used to work was because we were a small team. I had a lot of responsibility, I love influence, I added, you know, exposure to an incredible amount of projects. Yeah, of amazing projects. We collaborate a lot with other architects, and I think that role sort of helped shape me into a position.

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Unknown
I thought, actually, I would like to give starting a practice ago and see what I can. You know, I thought it was a natural continuation of what I was doing before, of course, with additional headaches of what business comes with business and practice, but it felt like a natural progression. Yeah. Unfortunately, I had, you know, a good network of people around who were interested in keeping relationships going so that kind of allowed me to take the plunge and give it a go in August 2019.

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Unknown
So you can guess what was going to happen that, oh my gosh, so you had one year before the pandemic, not even that six months. Oh my gosh. Yeah I remember I was fellow that the finds as well. And it kind of kickstarted the architecture social. But at the time I was quite content in my role. So oh my gosh.

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Unknown
So we're planning to open up your studio and you have now, which is amazing. So you got six months before the pandemic. So what was that like? Because these are two different worlds going on. So in the six months before, how far did you get before everyone did the lockdown? First and foremost. So I think I finished I finished with several in July.

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Unknown
Yeah, 2019 and set up Studio Saturn in August 2019. Oh yes. So I did actually barely give myself much time off. There wasn't much it it's kind of straight in. I think it was just, again, nature of timing. And that was, you know, collaborative partners and people who wants to keep our relationship going. I think that's formative advice points of view to anyone who wants to set up a practice.

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Unknown
I think having the foundation where you have an element of patronage, it's one of the biggest pieces of advice I've ever been given, and it's what we were able to secure from the outset, which means that you have something to start with and you have someone that's, you know, champion you because it is very hard to go out that when you suddenly, you know, clean slate, you don't have the brand, you don't have you only have yourself to go away.

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Unknown
So if you've got that patronage with someone that's supporting you, that helps you get going. So that was a big thing. So it's a timing thing. Got that going. And we had some, interesting projects, that were lined up. We were looking at doing a co-working space over in Kensington. We were looking at doing a co-op with, involved in a co-working space and flex office space over in, London Bridge.

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Unknown
Yeah. And they were really exciting. And, you know, those projects had, you know, for a small new practice was, you know, great opportunity for us to, to get established and also be able to cement ourselves within the commercial real estate world, which, again, is another sector which is very difficult to break into if you're not already an established, six months in Covid happened.

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Unknown
Well, Covid was starting to so it's I was I usually would say room. It's only about a year when people are like, oh yeah, there's, there's like virus in France. You know, it should be all right. It would be all be over in a week or so. Yeah, of course it wasn't over in a week or two.

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Unknown
Yeah. We ended up with two lockdowns. Yeah. I was a functioning workaholic. I didn't know what to do. Yeah, so I was. But it was the most bizarre time. I think I look back on it with, I think there's a it was a very. Yeah, it was really odd I think because we were in new business, we were renting a couple of desks, subletting up our desks, over email about bone.

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Unknown
Yeah. And we had flexibility, I guess, inherently built into operation from day one because we're, you know, we're a small team. We had laptops, we're using cloud servers. As soon as lockdown happened, we could just pick up and go, yeah, I go home. And like nothing changed really. Apart from obviously needs to make sure work continues.

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Unknown
So I guess with that and there was also an element of naivety about running a new business. So everything was so new that almost when Covid came along was like, oh, it's all so new. Anyway, this is just part of the newness. So in some ways it was not so scary. But yeah, none of us knew what was happening, how long it was going to go on for.

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Unknown
The unfortunate thing is, I think at that point we still had the projects that were lined up. Yeah, we were working on, you know, they were we were still working on let me take some of those. Even as far as Riva stage four. Yeah. It was only I think there must be an about six month lag from when Covid started.

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Unknown
Yeah. To those projects actually getting shelved. Island canceled. So we by that point we are taught we are now and end of summer autumn 2020 and you do commercial isn't that much of the time in the in the pandemic. Yeah that was the first time we were all thinking about working from home. What's it going to be like?

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Unknown
We won't even know how late. So yeah. So the projects that we had then got canceled. So suddenly we had a year's worth of, work. Yeah, that was just a cat fall. And we had to start again. It was almost like a head start. Cat, because what we've got to show for yourself. Yeah, for any build projects as a new business, you,

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Unknown
Yeah, you have a great cat model and some cat drawings and a stage four pack. But apart from that, who's going to buy that? I'll, you know, as a sell. I don't know about you, but when I started my business, it was like, you know, even some of the clients that you know, before, it's just there's so many practices around that people who are.

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Unknown
Okay, well, right. See, you have to push yourself home. There isn't. Absolutely. And I think we we were lucky that the client we were working for at the time was an international clients. They had it wasn't they weren't just one, you know, one assets. And then that was it. And you've done you know, fortunately there was still, opportunities on an international level.

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Unknown
And again, through that patronage that I mentioned before, we were helped by being offered, you know, oh, you know, other projects that we could support them with on an international level, which almost like took us now away from the UK and started to, allow us to explore overseas. So we actually went over, did some projects in Oslo and Stockholm, which is very different, very different.

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Unknown
And also direct Covid when you can even travel. Yeah. So I can't quite measure that at the moment. Yeah, exactly. Everything. Yeah. I think we didn't meet the, the team on that project face to face till a year and a half in or something like that. But those opportunities still allowed us to continue and support. And I think, you know, we ended up actually then by consequence of that, doing the first sort of four years of, of our us as a practice, predominantly doing international work, we're not really much in the UK.

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Unknown
And that seemed to go well. And once, you know, travel opened up again, we could go to site, we could go and meet people, and then we're able to build really good relationships, you know, through the network, you know, overseas. Ironically, as the world continued to change and, you know, war started, interest rates spiked, etc., etc..

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Unknown
Yeah, we looked at pivoting to try and focus more back on the UK again because, you know, working overseas is quite tricky because, you know, it's a travel this, you know, huge toll on yourself and you know, and also you're dealing with a lot of remote, having to do a lot of remote working. Yeah. We wanted to try and pivot try and, you know, build more of an established base with projects back in London that we'd achieved all these, you know, some big projects, you know, working with.

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Unknown
Yeah, large companies like IOI, Iwg. Focusing in the UK actually turn out to be a lot harder than I was expecting. Right. Which was a straight was. But I still think now where we are in 2026, I think it's an incredibly challenging place actually in London to do practice now is really takes things have changed a lot.

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Unknown
Yeah it's it's definitely definitely how maybe we can we can talk a little bit about that because I just want to go on one part because this is I, we appreciate your honesty even I'm finding it hard at the moment in 2026. I think that this is pretty picture when we go into business, although it'll be fine and you're going to get support and it will all be okay.

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Unknown
And then, you know, I think sometimes we're all guilty of like romanticizing that vision. But I personally think the reality of running my business was that it's also so very, very hard. Yeah, I enjoy it, but it's not that glamorous picture. Yeah. You know, the in my opinion, the the leader eats last. I am definitely not being show for the rounds.

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Unknown
On the same occasion, the band will show for me around now and then for that band that would be in his car. And I'm very sad if I'm lucky, where it's not all glamorous, you know, like I remember the epoch is where I worked. It was they were really great, really important to me. And they were fantastic.

00:18:09:14 - 00:18:31:02
Unknown
And then I was hear stories when I was there about the good old days, when the whiskey car used to come in Ireland and that the, the, the three directors of EPR back in the 1950s, when they set up, they would have a Rolls-Royce chauffeur and around one trying to say is, I think the, the dream, the illusion is different than the reality.

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Unknown
Oh, absolutely. Can you paint the lay of the land of the reality for someone? So I think I think there's two things. I think there's, there's aspects of starting a business. That if I look back on it, the highs can be really high. Like you can have some, you know, really great moments and also, you know, real pinch me moments of like either if you can achieve to do some, you know, if you do some good work and do it well and people are really happy with it, you know, that's the best you can do.

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Unknown
And those times when it really think, wow, this is actually this is really great. And also you, if you hire well, you can have some, you know, great people around you. I think that's critical. To success in this as well. I think, you know, being a founder, it can be also really lonely. And I think that's why that that's the opposite side of things, which is it can also sometimes be really tough and if you ask, you know, asked me when in 2019, well, we going to go into a global pandemic.

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Unknown
What's that then going to be, Russia invading Ukraine, which is going to create the crisis on an international level, which is going to push interest rates up crazy, which that going to make so much, viable from a commercial sense in terms of the real estate world. And now where's now, as we have this conversation at a point where the conflict in the Middle East is creating a lot of uncertainty?

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Unknown
Yeah, on all levels. So, yeah, we have been through it has been a boom and bust, cycle. We're fortunate that we survived Covid. And we've done some good things, and I'm really proud of that. But if I was to say it was really easy, it's not. Absolutely is not. And, but there are still aspects of that.

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Unknown
It's given me the flexibility in my own life to do things that I think would have been difficult to do had I not done it. Yeah. And, you know, on a personal level, one of those things that, you know, happened to when I, when I first set up, my mum sadly was diagnosed with, terminal cancer. Oh, sorry.

00:20:57:09 - 00:21:23:21
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. And so I was caring for her and then during the Covid times, having to look after her as well. But she was having to isolate, you know, it was a really, really tough time. And that messes with your head on a personal level. You know, you're trying to grow, start a business, but then you've also got the, you know, the challenges at home and then sadly, when things were starting to ease in 2020 when she passed away.

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Unknown
So then I had to deal, you know, deal with that. I was an only child. So the sort of, you know, the personal crisis that you have to do, but then still show up and be the bravest person and the happiest person and the most honest person to your team or, and your colleagues, and your clients.

00:21:44:13 - 00:22:13:13
Unknown
It that that's been hard. So it's given in some ways the flexibility to be able to to deal with the pressures I had at home were great because I don't think I would would've got that, at least in traditional working relationships that were before Covid. If I could deal with that, I'm so grateful for, but then the psychology, psychological, emotional side where you're then having to also continue to be the best person, the best version of yourself at all times to benefit everyone else.

00:22:13:15 - 00:22:37:05
Unknown
As a founder and a director and a leader, that's incredibly tough. And I think that's a journey that I've that's one of the biggest learning curves for me to try and try and learn how to deal with that in the right way, that your business is being looked after, but you're also looking after yourself because I think it's very easy to put brush things under the carpet.

00:22:37:07 - 00:23:00:21
Unknown
Yeah, and I'm guilty of it too. And you've cut you to so many hats you wear in the businesses. Yeah, you're you're the teacher. You're the mentor, the disciplinarian when it has to do it. And there's so much other things. And in a practice you're the marketing expert. You're H.R. You're, everything. And you also the the the work winner.

00:23:00:24 - 00:23:24:24
Unknown
Yeah. And, one of the problems when we were discussing this before that you mentioned, which, resonate with me, is the hidden cost of chasing work. Yeah. The bad part of it. Yeah. As you mentioned, how you went through all this business and stuff, and you should be believe. I mean, it's amazing stuff you done, but like you said, it isn't a hey, you can say like, oh, my work might be drying up here.

00:23:24:24 - 00:23:45:15
Unknown
I need to do something. Yeah. So suddenly, as the business owner, you kind of have to go out and wear the flag or online and and and chase work. So for me, could be a little bit different than what I'm used to in architecture. But what what is the process of when work like, where is the key you were saying?

00:23:45:19 - 00:24:14:02
Unknown
So I think I mean, the early on, I think we were lucky in the sense of we had that level of patronage. And I think, you know, that carried us through some difficult times. And I think the biggest lesson we learned from that was that's not something that will necessarily last forever. And I think to become complacent with that, is a big mistake.

00:24:14:04 - 00:24:35:17
Unknown
You know, and I think, I think we would generally okay at navigating it. I don't think we were perfect. But there was a time when we needed to pivot and move away from that because, you know, the nature of their business had changed. All the people, they all people within that organization leave, etc., etc.. There's other external factors coming in.

00:24:35:17 - 00:25:11:02
Unknown
I being one of them, actually. So yeah, we had to. We had to think of ways of how to live. Let's look for new work and meet people. And I think that's when when I mentioned before we, we shifted. Look, you know, more on the UK market. And that's when I opened my eyes to actually how hard it is to find work as an SME in the commercial space in the UK.

00:25:11:04 - 00:25:32:19
Unknown
Some, and I don't know if this is a whether this has always been like this or know I had the wool pulled over my eyes a little bit, I don't know, but I think this is a product since Covid, where people's appetite for risk is much lower than it ever was, or the like the client. So yeah.

00:25:32:19 - 00:25:51:17
Unknown
Comfort side I you so because you know, we've got we've got a good portfolio as far as I'm concerned. You know I just you know, I'm proud of it. I think you had done some interesting commercial work. We've done a lot of stuff overseas. The overseas market in Eastern Europe didn't have such a big issue with us being.

00:25:51:17 - 00:26:18:01
Unknown
And I maybe they like the southwest, you know, you they want to have a conversation I think by and decision. But here particularly commercial real estate, it's very money led. And and so the appetite for risk is pretty low. Yeah. I think you know, the market's been you know the economy's been incredibly volatile, understandably so. I can understand why the appetite for risk is low.

00:26:18:03 - 00:26:40:14
Unknown
It's not fair is it. And the bit that you wrote which was this may work doesn't necessarily go to the best design. Well I think yeah. And that's like it is true in in universally the way I think is the best project. Yeah. You win the awards when it doesn't really look like. Yeah, it's it's, it's connections because it's, it's different sizes.

00:26:40:14 - 00:27:22:23
Unknown
So, so since Covid, the, the appetite for risk I think is has reduced and that the grand post Grenfell has also contributed to that. So the Building Safety Act the barriers to entry on a from a paperwork perspective, if I was to call it that, have increased. And I think the the difficulty is for a new, new, smaller practice to emerge into a world that's dominated by incumbents, larger firms is incredibly tough because we've we've been through the scenario of being invited to bid work for it, for work.

00:27:23:00 - 00:27:44:19
Unknown
Then we lose them, even though, we get told, oh, your ideas or your approach was novel. It was, you know, people have thought about it in ways, you know, you've thought about it in ways that other people haven't. And they can give you the project. And they didn't get this project because they didn't because the wider team or the board or have it just didn't know us.

00:27:44:21 - 00:28:03:12
Unknown
So we lost on quality, you know, against somebody who just did whatever the usual stuff was and, you know, that they knew. And so that was safe. And you were working on this project because in architecture, a lot of these projects, you know, are you not really paid to tender for the work? Right. So not very they know.

00:28:03:12 - 00:28:23:14
Unknown
So, you know, sometimes you can see some debt, something in the bursary. But my name is an assignment here. So there's a submission in a month or two. And then you've got to get it ready and you've got to get your team which is you're paying for all this IRA. Yeah. So you kind of got to then get a few projects which are making money.

00:28:23:14 - 00:28:45:11
Unknown
Yeah. And then you're going to risk them because obviously if you get that projects it's gonna be amazing. Yeah. But there's 4 or 5 architects shortlisted is how typically the process. Yeah. And I think it's, it feels like a lot of the time like these things are just done to from a due diligence exercise. You know they've got to go out.

00:28:45:13 - 00:28:56:08
Unknown
You know that client's mandate is they've got to do a due diligence when they do what they've got to do a tender to make sure that they're getting the most competitively.

00:28:56:10 - 00:29:17:21
Unknown
Viable. Yes. To be a part of that. Yeah. Project. But really, it feels like they already knew who they were going to go with, but they just have to go through the exercise, just say, oh, we did it. So we've lost quite a lot of work where we've been told we were good and there was nothing wrong, but we just lost to someone else.

00:29:17:21 - 00:29:50:17
Unknown
So that's been highly frustrating and a waste of time and a huge expense to us, because these things cost a huge amount of money to do. Then the other side of it is framework agreements and supplier lists, and getting on supplier lists is, I felt like in their impossible task, because I actually went to an, an engagement, call recently for one of the big, developers and landowners in the UK where they're about to renew their frameworks.

00:29:50:19 - 00:30:14:06
Unknown
That was probably 150 architects on this call, or competing for, a lots that will probably have 3 to 5 architects in it. The clients, you know, procurement team who are running it were very adamant that they really wants to encourage SMEs. This is an opportunity for SMEs, you know, for people to, you know, to come in and you know, yeah, be a part of it.

00:30:14:06 - 00:30:41:19
Unknown
They want they really want supposedly championing it. But in the same breath, for many of the lots that were available as an estimate, you would also have to demonstrate that you've worked in every region of the UK and have presence in every region of the UK, because they didn't want people getting on a train from London to go up to North Yorkshire or Scotland or wherever, or Manchester, because they want them to be available to just walk down the road.

00:30:41:21 - 00:31:08:08
Unknown
And I'm like, well, how does that how can you honestly expect an SNP to even have that? That's aimed at scale? Yeah. And, and then the insurance requirements and then the turnover requirements and then everything else you have to go for. And actually the first stage of a lot of these things is, is just selling out a tick box form that instantly will kill any opportunity of an SMI.

00:31:08:10 - 00:31:29:20
Unknown
Well, from being selected because it's a yes or no answer. And if you ask the wrong question, that's it. You're it's they failed. Yeah. Well yes, it's a lower risk of this, the promise, of killing the fat shop, but it doesn't it doesn't feel like it is. So you've got to exclude and see that even you don't get to show your value.

00:31:29:22 - 00:31:58:15
Unknown
I don't think you get to show the quality of the product that you can design or create or, you know, deliver. No, I don't think that's sad. I agree, I think also when you talk about the cost of winning work, I think. Yeah. Then there's I guess, you know, there's marketing, obviously that's a huge cost. You know, social media one could say is a, a cheaper, you know, way of, you know, getting into the market, you know, you have to expose yourself, to the market.

00:31:58:17 - 00:32:25:13
Unknown
But it's also saturated by everything and anything. So it's actually, you know, you really need to find to differentiate yourself amongst a very big crowd. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, Where's Wally really like. And I think that's really tough to try to navigate those fields. But at the same time there's also what it feels like, especially in the commercial sector, is in order to network with the right people, you need to be in the room.

00:32:25:13 - 00:32:46:06
Unknown
But then the cost of getting in the room is obscene. So you've got all these talks and conferences. But they famine. You buy a table for five grand because that's where I get. Yeah. Joked about to enter the awards page. You've had the awards before. Yeah. But it is is that then if it's a moneymaking scheme really.

00:32:46:08 - 00:33:02:04
Unknown
You know, obviously it's nice to win an award occasionally, but it's at the cost of all these things. It's huge. And then you've got, you know, ticket, a ticket to go to UK race is something like 1 or 2 grand for like two days. Then you've got Mipim, which is again two grand just to walk into the hall.

00:33:02:08 - 00:33:22:03
Unknown
But then if you want to go to all the collateral stuff and stay in this and all that, then you're paying easily ten grand per person. Then you've got, you know, the memberships if you want to be a member of the BCA, that's, you know, grand. And then if you want to go to their annual conference, that's another nearly two grand, I, I miss I like them.

00:33:22:03 - 00:33:45:21
Unknown
But, you know, all of these things mean that that that pricing they they say that again they have a semi and but you get maybe £100 off here or there, but it's almost like you've got to pay all these things to, to, to be in the room. And I worked it out for a yes. A company like us, you can easily it easily becomes about.

00:33:45:23 - 00:34:04:00
Unknown
Yeah. So if you want to, to go all in 30 to 40 grand plus per person just to be involved and all these things, and you haven't at this point spent any money on other marketing like built, you know, getting a website, your images, your portfolio, etc.. The irony with all of that is people buy from people.

00:34:04:00 - 00:34:29:13
Unknown
So actually the portfolio in some ways is more of a validation tool, but it isn't the most important thing. But then getting in front of the right people is that more important. And that's and it can be considerable expense. It's got mad like it's mad. The prices are stupid. Yeah. And I don't know who's who's orchestrating all of this, but it's so, you know, that means it's always going to be the same group of take off.

00:34:29:15 - 00:34:52:20
Unknown
So, so, you know, and I think also within smaller architecture world and the fit out market and in commercial real estate, DMB is also a huge threat to our existence because they're taking a lot of projects, you know, that the turnkey model is and like, you know, I can understand is quite appealing to a client where they can just offload responsibility onto one party who will do the design.

00:34:52:23 - 00:35:18:11
Unknown
Yeah. And the build. Yeah. But then because we're caught up in that, we're then squeezed by, the, you know, the commercials that, that the, the contractors are trying to, you know, abide by in their margins, etc.. So that's why I wanted to talk about because very hypothetically, earlier, we were talking about bidding onto a project, a past design, doing all that stuff.

00:35:18:13 - 00:35:42:20
Unknown
You mentioned the very good point there. The, you know, developers, they need to make a return. Yeah. On the they process on stamp. So there we there is the, there balance there of of course they want to earn as much money as possible. But I've seen definitely some projects. I mean I live in a large housing development, I can tell you from living there where I feel up the cost.

00:35:42:22 - 00:36:04:18
Unknown
Yeah, it's gone extreme, you know. And there is that conversation as well, because you're, you're an award winning designer, right? You want to care for where's the balance in there on how much design you can do on a project and it getting cut down on the cost. So it's sometimes will the projects go to the person that's prepared to make the highest margins?

00:36:04:22 - 00:36:28:21
Unknown
I mean, how does it all work. Right. When and where does design get laughs? Ironically, with design, everything you interact with in life is designed. That's the irony of it all. But because it's not quantifiable, it's very difficult for, you know, particularly people who don't understand design. Yeah. To put a value on it. Yeah. But you certainly know when it's bad.

00:36:28:23 - 00:36:52:07
Unknown
I think everyone can, you know, will know when a design has been is bad or when something's crap. I mean, yeah, or has had no investment in it at all. I think we live in a society in a very immediate society now. I think things like fast fashion, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I think the way and also even with social media, everything has to be instant.

00:36:52:07 - 00:37:13:08
Unknown
Everything has been now I want it now. I want it now. I want it, you know, and I want I don't want to pay for it. I think design everyone does appreciate design until they have to pay for it. It's, it's I can irony with it all. But equally if you don't invest in good design now further down the line, you'll end up paying.

00:37:13:10 - 00:37:40:12
Unknown
You know I say 5050 now, but spend 50 grand later fixing all the problems that, you know, you could have just solve the day one. Yeah, I think the, the commercial real estate world is starting to wake up to the idea that inequality is important. I think there is a there is a flight quality that you're saying, particularly in a city, and that, you know, there's a there's a premium, over, you know, high quality real estate.

00:37:40:14 - 00:38:06:02
Unknown
But I think it's also exposed a lot of the sort of middle tier buildings or middle tier assets where there has been no investment because they've just sat on they're rested on their laurels for so many years. And suddenly Covid came along, change the market. And actually, now that we've got these buildings that nobody wants, I mean, London in a bit of a bubble, but I think if you go around the rest of the country, there's a lot of vacancy and crap stock.

00:38:06:07 - 00:38:31:23
Unknown
You know, if I'm completely honest. Yeah. And I think that the industry rewards predictability over risk. I think that's a big part of it. And that's why, you know, in times of innovation, you normally you see disruptors coming in. But I don't think there are many disruptors. And I think small practice in architecture and design has a role to play in that.

00:38:31:23 - 00:38:59:12
Unknown
But if they're not giving the being given the opportunities to come in and challenge conventions and do something new, it's it's it's resulting in this sameness that's just constantly permeating, around. Yeah. Well, everything you're saying to me, I kind of feel like the the point is you want to do the best work you can, but the risk ratio to doing something special, it almost feels like the cards are stacked against you.

00:38:59:16 - 00:39:20:03
Unknown
Absolutely. I mean, it says in that historical saying of like, no one got fired for hiring for for hiring IBM, you know, in the computer world, right? Yeah. Because it's a trusted brand or supposedly a trusted brand. You know, and if you went to IBM, hired them and it went wrong, you you're like, oh, it was just sods law.

00:39:20:08 - 00:39:38:04
Unknown
Yeah, this happened, but IBM will continue. But if you went to the new start up disruptor, and it went wrong, well then your career is on the line. So almost like a self-protection mechanism, like don't rock the boat too much because it can't afford to take the risk. And I get it. There is a balance to be had.

00:39:38:04 - 00:40:09:13
Unknown
You don't want to be reckless, but there has to be a return for innovation. Yeah. Otherwise, what's the point? I mean, Apple ironically, you know, hiring Jony Ive to come in and, you know, design their products. Yeah, that's set them apart instantly from all of their competitors. They could have just built, you know, the same looking computers, etc. but actually design became a huge part of their DNA that they've now become one of the biggest tech companies in the world.

00:40:09:15 - 00:40:31:17
Unknown
I mean, I you know, I definitely believe that design has had a huge value in that company as well as just the tech side. So, you know, where, you know, Steve Jobs, you could say was the Maverick and all of that. He was the one that took the risk and he's the one that invested in it. And and, you know, why are we not seeing more of that in real estate?

00:40:31:17 - 00:40:59:18
Unknown
That's what I don't understand why? Who are the Mavericks? Well, the Mavericks and I think, part of it is down to clients are not educated on what value design has. And actually don't tend to have. No, you know, some do, some don't but don't have the design in-house capabilities to, to on a, you know, proper sort of C-suite level.

00:40:59:20 - 00:41:28:08
Unknown
Yeah. Who are that? Provide that additional value added into that business? I think people are much more interested in program costs and risk. Yeah, well, and not anything else. I think that's. Well, you kind of touched upon the point of what actually creates value. And, you know, we were talking earlier about there also gets ignored as well.

00:41:28:08 - 00:41:49:22
Unknown
So maybe there's some things there. But in in this hypothetical cost analysis, they would just cut in everything. Yeah. But reality is then we lose that sense of space. We lose that feature that could, you know, turn the building from being mundane to exceptional that people come to and you learn about. Yeah, you're on a budget. You specialize in these amazing offices.

00:41:49:22 - 00:42:11:19
Unknown
We need to even have the pandemic. I know we're moving back to people coming in, but it's like, yeah, it's a great place to be. Yeah. And, I sure was as well. Office is, which was so-so. It's really nice. Yeah. You want to go to really good crisis, right? Yeah. But it's kind of getting lost in here in that decision making process at the start or how the project turns out sometimes.

00:42:11:24 - 00:42:34:15
Unknown
Yeah, that's how I feel. But is there any Well, what do you think creates them value? Alex in the projects you look and or do you think sometimes gets also overlooked at wash? If you walk into a building and you and it feels good. Yes. Every aspect of it feels good. Every touchpoint, everything you move through, but you can't put your finger on it.

00:42:34:15 - 00:42:58:18
Unknown
Why? But you know, it just makes you feel good. That's value, I think, and that's tends to have been a product of good design. If if you go into something and it's not nice and it feels bad, it's likely to be prioritized in all the wrong areas. Yeah. And has value design time. If I was to put it in a very simple.

00:42:58:20 - 00:43:35:19
Unknown
So I think that's when the chain that gets forgotten. It is the reason we study architecture. Yeah. And I think architects get a bad rap for or architects don't sell themselves properly. Which, you know, on one hand maybe, but I actually think part of it is also on the, the client side. So you know. Yeah. Financial. Well the real estate world, even project management world construction world, there isn't enough education to them in their own development of the value of to good design.

00:43:35:19 - 00:43:59:14
Unknown
Yeah. So I don't think this is just an architecture problem. I think this is actually that they're not investing it in it properly themselves through their own, development fund school, university and onwards. I think it's too much about money. And I think that would be my sort of devil's advocate. Yeah. I think architects, you know, it's. Oh, it's not about finished projects.

00:43:59:14 - 00:44:26:03
Unknown
You know, you put images of finished projects on websites that no one cares about, that. But actually it's important because that is the outcome, you know, and you can tell a crap one from a good one just by the photo. Yes. It's not the be all and all that the journey, how you got there, the solutions that you provided to the problems along the way of incredibly important, and those need to be spoken about more and and sold as the value at.

00:44:26:05 - 00:44:53:08
Unknown
But equally, I think the clients need to stop being, in my opinion, ignorance and start sitting up and actually learning from design. Yeah, and that needs to be a part of that education and training, in my opinion. I think you are starting to see developers in the UK who are starting to bring in-house, design managers or design directors to help steer developments, but I still don't.

00:44:53:10 - 00:45:12:03
Unknown
Some of them, I don't think a given a strong enough platform to be able to really influence. Yeah, that's a shame. Oh, glamor. Oh. Really, that's what the role of the RBA or RBA should be, in my opinion, are being where can I go? I could say that I was on the RBA councils. Okay. That's okay.

00:45:12:03 - 00:45:33:15
Unknown
I can, I can get away with it and. Yeah. And, and if the cease and desist readings come in then I'll deal with them then. Jokes aside, though, I think that, in 2026 for. And what I really admire about yourself is that you're, you're you are the leader. If you've if you're going out with the project, you don't always with them.

00:45:33:15 - 00:45:54:09
Unknown
You've got to dust yourself off. You've got to keep going. Sometimes you've got to do the unglamorous probably is pay for the we've got all this stuff going on. This really is like the reality of being a business owner. Yeah. To be a founder as well. There were some things when we were talking before here about the emotional reality of running the CV, you, you kind of touched upon that.

00:45:54:09 - 00:46:15:15
Unknown
I've always been the best version, even when you feel like crying in the car and, you know, I've had that moment of, you're on the zoom, call it in your hands. You're like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? But, gee, I wish I had. Maybe we could talk it out is. Yeah. Because the emotional reality of running a studio is hard.

00:46:15:17 - 00:46:41:19
Unknown
It's, you know, you get there in the in the business, you got to do all this stuff. For anyone that is setting up an architectural practice, the, like, kind of feel like we can say all the negatives, all of it. But anything like me and maybe Europe is saying I would still do it anyways. So for them, for those stubborn people like me, who are going to do it anyways, what advice would you give, about the setting in the studio?

00:46:41:19 - 00:47:02:02
Unknown
Like how can you any of this though the fires now some mistakes I've made and I will do one interview with you and a wolf and some of the mistakes. See words and overcome. Like what advice would you give to people? I think advice. Yeah. You need to, you need to, Really do it for the right reasons.

00:47:02:02 - 00:47:26:21
Unknown
I think, you know, you've got to accept that it's not going to be easy. I think at night, I think you need to, to a certain extent, be prepared to put yourself last. Yes. You know, you always want to be in that position where the businesses, you know, flying high and you're able, you know, and it all works smoothly.

00:47:26:21 - 00:48:00:12
Unknown
But the reality of that is it just it doesn't always work that way. And yeah, you will need to put yourself last, and be comfortable with that. Obviously can't go on forever because you also have to look after yourself as well. And I think that's really important. So I've, you know, there's definitely been a times when I don't think I've did look after myself properly, you know, canceling holidays, you know, fire fighting issues, you know, feeling that I can't step away.

00:48:00:14 - 00:48:34:06
Unknown
But there are times when you need to to actually try and wipe that from your brain. And. Yeah, easier said than done it a lot easier said than done. I was only laughing because everything you describe that is exactly what I do and still do say I'm not. So yeah, it's hard, it's hard. But I think I've and I think, you know, I've, I've become a lot better, you know, be able to try and step back, be able to put more responsibility and trust into the team.

00:48:34:08 - 00:49:07:16
Unknown
And also trying to create a culture here where it's not about all nighters, it's not about ridiculous hours. It's actually about a healthy working relationship. You know, I've and this is actually something I learned from from uni when when I was at the bar of the, the culture then was everyone's working 12, 14 hour days, seven days a week, you know, 100 hour weeks, you know, doing that projects burning out completely depressed, you know, crying.

00:49:07:19 - 00:49:37:21
Unknown
It was it was actually it was really unhealthy time. And I quickly learned when I was doing that that if, you know, I could get home and have a good night's sleep, and be really strict with that. I was so much more effective. Yeah. The next day. And actually, you know, if you listen to all their health carries around, it's quite obvious, you know, you you need to be able to step away and have moments to rest and respite because you will perform better.

00:49:37:23 - 00:50:03:24
Unknown
Yeah. If you kill yourself doing all of this, you're only going to burn out and then you're only going to be less effective. And that's just going to be a spiraling domino effect. So but again, it's very hard to get out of that mindset. But I think you know, I'm quite strict with try to make sure that we have our boundaries and if we, you know, yes, you might need to work late occasionally.

00:50:03:24 - 00:50:31:15
Unknown
That's just part of the deal. I have to work on a weekend. Yes, fine. But if you can structure in a way that your core time is restricted, that will make you force you into making yourself hopefully more effective. Yeah, during the week and then give you that time. But you can do things for yourself, whether it's, you know, be there for your family, give it a go on holiday or, you know, this all the other don't.

00:50:31:17 - 00:50:51:02
Unknown
It's hard, isn't it? And then one of the other things is as well, guidelines have to be okay. I think when you're the business owner especially, there's going to be difficult decisions. There always is going to be and making the call. Do you believe in that project? Do you do this? How do I scale up? Do I not scale up to do all that stuff?

00:50:51:04 - 00:51:14:08
Unknown
Do you have any advice for people in those difficult decisions? Because as you mentioned, it's always tricky, isn't it? I think one is you need to cover your gut. Your gut is probably always going to be right. You know, I think that that is for me at least, I, I do believe in that. Doesn't always necessarily mean that everyone's going to agree with you, but I think, you know, you've got to you've got to believe in something yourself.

00:51:14:08 - 00:51:20:22
Unknown
I think that's one thing. But, I think with projects.

00:51:20:24 - 00:51:45:09
Unknown
You know, you want of course, you need to do the glamorous job. You know, you want to have that. You want that to be your legacy on that speak of your career. The reality is, is that's very unlikely to happen, at least. And, you know, once you've set up in the immediate future, yeah, you have to be prepared to do some less glamorous work.

00:51:45:11 - 00:52:12:14
Unknown
As part of the learning curve, a part of, you know, a, you know, paying the bills, but also developing, building relationships, trading people up. You have to go through that process. And I think, you know, to say that everything is all rosy and, you know, you're continuity, always designing beautiful projects. And they're all amazing cultural institutions with, you know, unlimited budgets, etc., etc. that's just that's not a reality of life.

00:52:12:14 - 00:52:31:09
Unknown
And that's how, you know, if you get one of those in your lifetime, then fantastic. But the reality is it's not going to be that. And and you have to be comfortable with that and I think be comfortable with trying different things as well, you know. Yeah. You want I think, constant allies that you can build an expertise.

00:52:31:11 - 00:52:53:00
Unknown
Yeah. And a. You want. Yeah. To, to be recognized for a certain maybe specialty that that people will turn to you for. So, yeah, I guess not being a, jack of all trades, but master of none, but actually having some something that's your sort of your thing.

00:52:53:02 - 00:53:11:04
Unknown
And. Yeah, I think, yeah. Except that you are going to have to probably do a lot of lots of different things, you know, on that journey and even you as a founder, you're not going to be you're going to have to probably with 5000 hats, you're going to be a part one. And the leader at some points, you never yeah.

00:53:11:07 - 00:53:26:24
Unknown
You're going to have to do a bit, you know, get yet for the sleeves up and get stuck in, again, you also need to be careful not to get too stuck in that. Then you forget the business as well. Yeah. So it's it's it's a constant minefield of the balance of working on the business and in the business.

00:53:26:24 - 00:53:48:15
Unknown
Yeah, it's really, really hard. It's a bit of a strange time at the moment. Offices are such a nightmare. Architecture is so reactive to the career market. Yeah, like I said, the time of recording is having right now is such fun. At the start, interest rates are, high. Are they're going to be high for a while.

00:53:48:17 - 00:54:10:02
Unknown
And, of course, I mean, we can open a you. I have my pensions and all this stuff. I mean, can really be affected by the conflict. The the war aside, at the moment. I mean, what you do when you, when you're in architecture practice like this, do you think that you have to learn to pay there and move to the current markets as well?

00:54:10:04 - 00:54:32:16
Unknown
It's it would do definitely. You know, it's definitely a conversation that we've had. I mean our bread and butter has always been commercial workspace. I think that's a market that's, you know, being completely all over the place in the last few years, you know, stemming from Covid and now everything else, and will continue to be potentially.

00:54:32:18 - 00:54:39:19
Unknown
Yeah. We're facing loads of pressure from I, we've lost certain.

00:54:39:21 - 00:55:01:08
Unknown
Types of work from to I. Yeah. Clients have decided rather than hiring an architect, they just, let's, you know, in-house with an AI software, so not space. Yeah, well, let's see how long that works before the lawsuit comes in. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's that's another we can topic we can probably touch on, but it's, that's something that's affected us.

00:55:01:08 - 00:55:39:18
Unknown
You know, we lost a six figure stream of work because of that chain that, that that ultimately. Yeah. The specific thing. Yeah. Yeah. So which is which I don't agree with that. However, the point is you only get the project or not. Isn't it. So. Yeah. Yeah. That was that was difficult. It's difficult because because of this, I think this nature of risk predictability, I, I've already talked I talked about if you can't demonstrate that you've done some of those sectors, then the barrier to entry is really high for them.

00:55:39:21 - 00:55:57:06
Unknown
So it's a bit of a catch 22. Yeah. It's you're you almost set up to fail. And you might be able to pivot if maybe you hire well and you bring someone in who can bring that expertise and the projects with them. But then that's also a huge cost and potentially a huge risk because it might not work out.

00:55:57:08 - 00:56:05:17
Unknown
So it's a cost. It's it's really difficult. I think the, the, the way procurement works now.

00:56:05:19 - 00:56:27:22
Unknown
Is making it really hard. And I think it's, it's almost feels like I'm going to be really honest, which it sounds a bit to clean. It's like any practice in the commercial sphere that's set up since 2020. It's like a dead end. Ask what it feels like, say like that. And I and I might be really overdramatic and I'm hoping, you know, that's how it.

00:56:27:22 - 00:56:48:16
Unknown
Some people can prove me wrong. But it does feel like that because it feels like. Well, the questionnaire says no. So therefore we can't we don't even get in the raid because you can cold outreached people till the cows come home. Yeah. They don't respond. No, they're not interested. We even had actually as a, as a marketing tool this you know, you see so much on LinkedIn.

00:56:48:16 - 00:57:12:04
Unknown
You see so much on Instagram. But we decided to go the old fashioned route and actually make a book of, you know, our first 5 to 6 years worth of work and, you know, a nice hardback book. And we sent that out to, you know, clients that we were interested in working with. Hoping in a nice blue box, you know, that we spent a bit of money and.

00:57:12:04 - 00:57:33:19
Unknown
Yeah, quality and time and making these marketing, yes, books, but also hopefully it being something that they're not going to throw away when they receive it. But then if they're interested they'll spend their own time slowly. Yeah. Flicking through it and be interested. And hopefully they'll then get back in touch. I'd say it wasn't the most successful thing we did.

00:57:33:19 - 00:58:00:12
Unknown
We got a few people come back to us, said, you know, thank you for sending it to us. Yeah, ten out of ten for proactive marketing. But then even with that, we still didn't get blocked by the, the, pre-qualification spiel. Well, you know, this, that and the other. And I think there's something needs to change where people have got to get rid of this perception that small new a practice, clearly with a track record.

00:58:00:16 - 00:58:25:24
Unknown
Yeah, is still more risky than going with the same old, same old, same old who are actually very large and have incredibly high turnovers. And actually in a time of uncertainty is potentially more risky because they've got a lot more to lose. Yeah. If you know, and the probably the margin is very tight I don't know. It's challenging.

00:58:25:24 - 00:58:59:00
Unknown
Well for everyone I think, you know I'm sure a large person will also have a good argument. Yeah. And it's a counter mind but it's the client side. Something needs to happen there where they get better. Yeah. Learn a better appreciation. Yeah. For what they're doing. And when they procure design work. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate because the we were speaking before this, I mean, I'm speaking to a lot of business owners at the moment who have we're all frantically trying to work this out together, and it's so good to hear and talk about it.

00:58:59:02 - 00:59:18:18
Unknown
I almost feel bad sometimes. I don't know who that is because, I mean, it is amazing. Students, which is studying now. Yeah. And, I remember when I joined in architecture and I, it was a big studio and I remember, like, I can comment, one architect made about how. But he's the people are still studying these days and that thermostat.

00:59:18:21 - 00:59:40:23
Unknown
Okay. And, you know, I it it I do have concerns, though, and this is as personal as what I like is now going to cost 9,000 pounds a year to. So yeah, it's extra I know. And it's a five year degree and the, the across Europe and even even with me, you know, it's trying to make revenue in the business and get people.

00:59:41:01 - 01:00:04:06
Unknown
Well I feel is a fair salary. It's really, really hard isn't it. So, suddenly students are kind of entering the industry with bags of their I mean, realistically, now that's good. Thanks. I didn't come from like, unlucky for me. You know, we were talking about connections earlier. I don't have a rich, architectural background. And, you know, my of want to make architects or had it out, but.

01:00:04:06 - 01:00:32:07
Unknown
So I'm not like you. I could go out and get everything nice out. So that means you probably got all this, bags of that, and then you enter architecture and you kind of build yourself up. So I think it's really, really hard all around. But people still study architecture because there is something amazing there. But I would say, I think it was the beauty of architecture is, you know, it's one of the few things in life that everybody comes in contact with on it.

01:00:32:12 - 01:01:04:23
Unknown
On an hourly basis, you know, daily basis. You know it. We we live in architecture. We operate in architecture. Buildings have influence. How we live and be as people. Yeah. And that's what's so important. And I think the, the ability to play a role in shaping, you know, a life experience for someone. Yeah, it's an incredible responsibility. But also, I think incredibly great opportunity.

01:01:05:00 - 01:01:08:05
Unknown
The challenges that.

01:01:08:07 - 01:01:39:13
Unknown
That I, I don't think enough people in the whole sphere of how they connect with their are taking it seriously enough of how much, you know, actually architecture brings to creating that value for everyone, including financial value. Yeah. Ironically and then yourself as an architect, I still, despite all the adversity, we're all trying to work together. I still get from you the excitement of architecture and it's still there.

01:01:39:13 - 01:01:57:16
Unknown
I just feel like you have to be protective of that. In the dark is fine because the projects are amazing that you've done, and I'm not just saying, yeah, so I wouldn't want to say there's a reason you still do it, right. There's a reason why they ask you. Yeah. You going forward, you making the project work to get it over the line?

01:01:57:17 - 01:02:31:03
Unknown
Absolutely. I think I think going through the, you know, the slog of, of doing a project and then at the end seeing it all come together and it looks great. And you can see the smile on it's on the client's face, you can see the users who are coming in and, you know, exploring it, and it's going to be their home for however long, you know, seeing it all come together and, and actually just become a part of someone's daily life, that they choose to inhabit that space for whatever reason, whether it's a home or as an office or anything else, to say that you had to play it, you played a part in shaping

01:02:31:03 - 01:02:53:19
Unknown
that is is the most exciting bit for me. You know, I, I, I love designing for people. I think at the end of the day we know design from the inside out. That. Yeah, it's life in a, in a building is something that I find really rewarding. Yeah. And exciting. No, you can't forget that. That's why we still do it.

01:02:53:19 - 01:03:10:07
Unknown
And I think that's why people still see the architecture. And you know me, I know I don't do architecture per se anymore, but I definitely wouldn't be here without architecture. And I think, like what we learned in university, you know, like the way you mentioned the bar, that you can never have it. You never, ever let it go.

01:03:10:09 - 01:03:27:21
Unknown
And and to me, it's been deeply, deeply rewarding. Can I ask like, what's your view on like because we talk about the prison and your fights, our will, we'll get through it all and hopefully some of the it will be nice, some of the paperwork changes and all that stuff. And tenders are a bit more open and fixable.

01:03:27:23 - 01:03:48:10
Unknown
But how would you feel about the future then at the moment? Because I despite all the hardship, I see a twinkle in your eye and none of us are ever going to give up because his in is in our in our blood. But how do you feel about the future? I think, it's funny. I think these things potentially come in cycles, I think.

01:03:48:12 - 01:04:25:16
Unknown
I think we will come back to a time when people are going to wake up to, you know, that they've just done the mundane mundanity of things that are being built around now, this sort of, you know, saying this, people are going to get bored of it. People are going to want something fresh and exciting and new. And I think the younger generations coming through who are going to be the next people to influence these things, I think there is a hunger, you know, that they that they're not the sort of generation that seems to want to put up with the status quo.

01:04:25:16 - 01:04:58:12
Unknown
They look for change. And I think if they're able to bring something, you know, to the built environment where they can champion change, it's, you know, sustainability, but also experience interests, quality of life. I think that is an exciting prospect. And I think, you know, for any young person that's listening, you know, like that be, you know, one of your mandates because you know, there is a wealth of possibility, out there and there's lots of great things that can happen.

01:04:58:12 - 01:05:22:24
Unknown
And I think that that makes me excited. But we just need the people who control that narrative to really invested in it. Yeah. Fair enough. So for you as a business owner, when you are looking to hire on your team, and especially, you know, we're talking about anatomy, which is a practice under 30, which is most businesses in the UK.

01:05:22:24 - 01:05:50:04
Unknown
Yeah. And you don't get the support that we need. We'll kind of seeing these and portfolios resonate for me. When you're hiring, what do you kind of look for? I think, you know we're a small team. And I think, you know, the pers person skill is just as important as them as a person. Yes. I think, we look for people who have a bit of an entrepreneurial spirit.

01:05:50:04 - 01:06:25:04
Unknown
Yeah. Who are willing to or demonstrate that they can sort of step out of their own comfort zones a little bit to explore new territory, to bring new things, to challenge, you know, certain perceptions or norms, and actually bring something unique to the business to help it flourish. And grow. I think we're not a company that would do well for someone who just would sit, not just sit behind a computer and be told what to do every day because it's now at a heights now.

01:06:25:04 - 01:06:50:04
Unknown
And also we're so we're small that, you know, we want that people need to have their own need to be their own and need to build their own brand and career, you know, in their own right, as well as being a part of the team and the company. I think one of the biggest things I've learned, and I'm continuing to learn, I think, is how important your network is.

01:06:50:06 - 01:07:21:22
Unknown
And I would recommend anyone who's going through any job or, you know, you know, whatever stage they're at in that career journey so far, that building your own network of people that you collaborate with, you trust, you know, that you have a good relationship with that is so important because you never know when that's going to be needed, whether it's now in your current job that you can bring something to your, you know, your current employer and team, or it's something that you need later in life that's critical.

01:07:21:22 - 01:07:52:22
Unknown
And I don't think at least my learnings within architecture that think people take that seriously enough. The, the network that you have, the relationships that you have with people are so important. I think, you know, if we were to hire again that as an attribute, I think I would add to the list that I've but I think just the network that what you can bring to the team is huge to an hour.

01:07:52:24 - 01:08:13:16
Unknown
All you can really get them to want to make sure and ask me when I see was just for fun. Okay. Then lastly, when you go, why are you being so mean to me? You know, and so I guess, I mean, I've, we've, we've talked about, you know, practice and being excited about architecture and the future of architecture.

01:08:13:16 - 01:08:34:07
Unknown
I think, you know, it is it's a tough industry. You know, it's a long education. And then it's a it's a, you know, it's a tough world to work in. I think, you know, there's definitely points when even that with my own reflection where I, you know, with question like, you know, is this right? Or, you know, I think the same ways we talk about pivoting.

01:08:34:09 - 01:08:57:19
Unknown
Yeah. Sounds like you've pivoted at one point and, and clearly seems to be working out well for you. And I think to also reassure people that these things also happen in life. And, I'd be curious to hear. Yeah. Thoughts on that. I think, bizarrely, I love the course of architecture. I still really enjoy the practice I joined.

01:08:57:21 - 01:09:14:12
Unknown
The thing was, I got to the desk and I realized that the 9 to 5 that I was doing, I didn't quite enjoy that. I was caught watching and I had no interest in technical these. It's just not me, you know, you've got. Yeah, I feel like you've got to be intrinsically invested in what you are trying to solve.

01:09:14:14 - 01:09:38:03
Unknown
And that's why I've got friends who have the architecture by because they aren't compelled to do it like you. You go above and beyond to, to to get things done and you, highlighting things in the system that hopefully we can solve. Because I can see that you're not the whole point of view is you want to get these amazing projects over the line.

01:09:38:05 - 01:09:57:09
Unknown
I just didn't have the same thing there. So ironically, I then matched that and I found to be a great man, and I didn't really want to do it was my in-between job that I'd done for 12 years, but I saw something in, oh, maybe I can have architecture in an abstract way. And then I was suddenly very good at it.

01:09:57:09 - 01:10:15:11
Unknown
I mean, it was very animated and fancied I would get involved. And suddenly then I transcended from working in a job where I just studied figures for how to be an architect and had some value. And then when I set up my own business, it was that feeling of, oh great, I can do the things I've always wanted to do.

01:10:15:11 - 01:10:36:09
Unknown
Yeah, but then I realized that I really know it all, and and you need support. And the concept of a self-made man is a mess. It really is. And you do need a team around you. Yeah, absolutely. The thing is, you've got to then really tap into what inspires people. Otherwise, I think to still get a decent employee.

01:10:36:15 - 01:10:56:09
Unknown
But if you can then find people, find people passionate about that same kind of work, then that really is like, oh yeah, the magnum opus. So I'm trying to send a roundabout way ways like now the only downside to the business is so I was complaining about my 9 to 5, and I remember being like, oh, like say 45, why am I here?

01:10:56:09 - 01:11:16:09
Unknown
It's like 50 men and I'll pay for this. And then my friend who used to work for fosters was laughing at me, going like, easy, easy for a yeah, but now I look all the hours and that sometimes is too far. Is. Yeah, too far. Yeah. But at least I'm alive. And so that's the thing. Like, I think that architecture is passionate about like there was a quote unknown.

01:11:16:09 - 01:11:34:08
Unknown
Foster so I don't know why I was looking at a real and he you've kind of tapped into it that actually you need to do and you know, I mean, that's a different level of business. But his point was that whether it's architecture or whatever, you've got to find what you're passionate about and keep going and keep going, because then it kind of doesn't transcend working.

01:11:34:08 - 01:11:56:03
Unknown
I yeah, you're there. The downside with it, though, is that, like you said, you mentioned about how hard it is to when really can everything. You're absolutely right. When I set up my business, none of my all of this long standing clients that I call save, it's great for you, but I don't know. I don't know if I need another recruit on cancel it.

01:11:56:03 - 01:12:18:20
Unknown
And you're like, whoa, what's going on? Yeah, I'm just hoping for for you. So I had a preview of your thing of, like, you're a great guy, but we'll come back to you. Oh my gosh, so I pivoted. I think you got to pivot, but you got to pivot into what you enjoy. And you even go to the it like I mean I'm a little bit since like, I, I'm, I do believe this read the numbers and I do believe in hiring people.

01:12:18:20 - 01:12:38:05
Unknown
But even me I've got someone joining next month. I'm on going into this war, which doesn't end. So I then got a duty to protect people. Yeah, and it's not that simple. You know, the thing is, well known folks that are. And this is just me. Sometimes you have to have difficult conversations. Yes. With your staff, with everything.

01:12:38:05 - 01:13:03:01
Unknown
Or sometimes you just want to do all this stuff which is not talked about. So, I find out. Yeah. And it is hard. Yeah. I mean, I find the balance sometimes between, like, kind of what I've learned recently and then to not laugh because he's going to be like, yeah, right. See where he says. But basically I do out of duty to like, push people's careers.

01:13:03:03 - 01:13:26:13
Unknown
And sometimes that means that, like, it's easier not to say something, you know, then you cut not good with certain things. So I have a duty to push people than I ever was. Coach style. Ex. Yeah. This is very new as an every and what I'm beginning, every different human being is very different. So like Ben's in the room now, I'm gonna have to get you on the camera because, like, he,

01:13:26:15 - 01:13:46:05
Unknown
I keep picking on people about life. You know what makes Ben really suddenly, you know, lose the hours and get amused and do this exceptional. Which I. Yeah, is very different than someone like Hannah on my team. And, you know, it's really kind of work all that out. And I think that's a, that's the, I guess the best definition of a team.

01:13:46:08 - 01:14:07:22
Unknown
You know, that everyone has their role to play in the common goal. Correct. But you're not going to you're not going to be in goal and play strike, you know on a football field. Yeah I'm like you, I'm a small business. And so we can you know there's there's an element of making sense where if you got a payday and you know we're all human and so you know some this and can be are some people crazy over you going to God make it all work.

01:14:08:00 - 01:14:31:01
Unknown
Yeah. Therein lies the challenge. Yeah. And then I think that part of architecture, and that part of running our future is this is not teach to my opinion. I mean, I never did my for free, but and that's the hard bit like, well enough, I think, if anything, I, if I look back at my education, part one and two didn't, did not have enough, business training.

01:14:31:01 - 01:14:54:10
Unknown
I think this is training almost in some ways is almost just as important as the design work. That the part that was a very creative place. Some of the stuff I think we did, in my honest opinion, was completely pointless. Like, I still have no value. That's not giving me any clarity in my rational career at all.

01:14:54:12 - 01:15:31:20
Unknown
Some of it has, but I think also, you know, it comes down to, you know, maybe the teachers I had, you know, I had some really great tutors who who, you know, helped open my mind, you know, minds and maybe think out the box in a way that I'd never learned. I think that's an important skill, but I think learning business, understanding money, cash flow, winning work, team, team dynamics, yeah, are all incredibly important skills, you know, working with, dealing with people.

01:15:31:22 - 01:15:58:19
Unknown
The university doesn't know, doesn't or didn't do enough for that. And also crits crits were I think you you're not to call them crits anymore or some universities you can't. You have to call about it beforehand. So you know. Yeah because it's too negative. Critique. Yeah. Well they, they weren't, but they were perceived as negative things like, I remember, you know, when I went into first year, we, we were made to feel like they were the scariest thing in the world.

01:15:58:19 - 01:16:08:05
Unknown
And presenting our work was you know, we were gonna get ripped apart or, you know, we're going to be embarrassed in front of our entire group.

01:16:08:07 - 01:16:28:07
Unknown
Education shouldn't be about creating that culture of fear. I think the part that, if I'm completely honest, created a massive culture of fear. I mean, it's been widely publicized in the press, the issues the parliaments had says, and, and I think that a lot of it's justified. Yeah. I got to in I read the report and, I went, wow.

01:16:28:09 - 01:16:46:09
Unknown
Yeah. This is kind of normal because I, I went to a London university as well. And then the public were shocked that I'm like, yeah, that's, that's, that's an an architectural studio in central London. Yeah. Absolutely. But also, but I think not because the, you know, the people that went through the system who are, you know, the generation above myself, they all had to do it.

01:16:46:09 - 01:17:13:07
Unknown
So it's kind of that's why your practice is also got a stereotype for a lot of companies for being quite antiquated. It's, you know, working all hours, you know, constant doing work, you know, burning it like midnight candle, and just creating a really not so great culture. That's something when I started this practice that I just wanted to make sure that we did not have any of that, which is why, you know, we have to.

01:17:13:07 - 01:17:32:06
Unknown
Yet at the moment, we have, a system where as long as you're in the office, you know, more or less, you know, between 10 and 5. So you need an hour in the morning to do your own thing. Or if you need some time at the end of the day, to do your own thing, totally fine. Because life life happens.

01:17:32:06 - 01:17:48:22
Unknown
You've got, you know, you've got to be able to look after yourself. You know, if you have a hobby that needs, you know, one day a week, you need to finish work early because you want to go and do that. Go and do it like you've got to look after yourself like, and everyone and I, that's my responsibility to look after the team so that I still feel good.

01:17:48:24 - 01:18:07:21
Unknown
And I think, you know, trying to get rid of that hysteria and that strange culture that came from the past. You can still work hard, you can still do great things. You just don't need to do it. Yeah. By killing yourself. I just don't believe in that. Yeah. Now I got two members of my team that work incredibly hard during the hours.

01:18:07:23 - 01:18:39:24
Unknown
You could say that question. I get output. Could be the same as someone working more outside. So it doesn't need to be that way. Yeah, I would say that the Chris I would. I agree that the hysteria around it was way too much. I'd been there before panicking. Yeah. I do think if we remove a bit of that, the one thing I do like about A is like, as a business owner, I do think it prepares you for a mate that you could when you got a project, you got to you showcase, you work people are there.

01:18:39:24 - 01:18:59:24
Unknown
You've got to seize the moment, I think. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think because we do a lot of the libraries in the office, we Penafiel thing up on the wall and we talk around it, I think, and I believe in, showcasing and discussing and debating the issue with what I think has come from the criticism is it's giving people that lack of confidence.

01:19:00:00 - 01:19:21:07
Unknown
Yes. Not everyone. Yeah. Oh, yeah. What you mean. Which means that when you have these reviews in practice, which is supposed to be friendly conversations, because as far as I'm concerned, every idea is right until it's proven wrong. Yeah, yeah. And you need to go through those, those discussions in order to hone in on what you think is the right solution for this circular problem.

01:19:21:09 - 01:19:41:17
Unknown
But if you're coming from a culture of fear where you're too scared to even put an idea forward because you're scared that it will be, like, perceived as wrong. Yeah, being wrong is not a problem. This is what I think. You know, I try and, you know, teach the team is like, it's okay to be wrong. I will challenge you and I hope you'll challenge me back.

01:19:41:19 - 01:20:11:19
Unknown
But that's the whole debate is what brings better solutions. But if you're not, if you're too uncomfortable having the debate, then because because of this fear that you know it's come from school, then that's when things get difficult. Yeah. So that's why you know, that's why I know we in the past with art and within our team, we've invested in someone coming in to help do presentation training and coach people to, you know, helping, you know, how to speak and tell stories.

01:20:11:19 - 01:20:45:18
Unknown
And also, you know, to try and get rid of that nice cobwebs, that sort of sort of dusted over you, you know, get rid of it all and, and bring a really fresh energy. Yeah. No, I agree. I mean there was one time it was one, two, 10 or 1 name of mine that just had that got complex and made a flip and comment aimed towards me going like, that's what I suppose is fine if you want to be a cat monkey and like there is no need for that because I'm here to, try it two years later and I could remember it.

01:20:45:18 - 01:21:07:10
Unknown
I mention it to you. It's kind of like the argument of the Gordon Ramsay thing. Well, if I throw a frying pan at your heads and then you become a good chef and. Yeah, you're welcome. But I think that's gone too far. Yeah, but also the irony with that, the, you know, the cat, the cat monkey analogy for some people that's not what they want.

01:21:07:12 - 01:21:37:10
Unknown
Yeah. They don't want to be doing Cat all day. But for some people actually, they really enjoy the technical side of or, you know, the sort of the, the, it, you know, side of, of practice which, you know, especially with things like them, and you know, even I now and, you know, visualization and all the other sort of softwares and tools, parametric design, etc., that rely on computer work to, to realize or develop those designs or find solutions to problems.

01:21:37:12 - 01:21:54:24
Unknown
Well, that is, you know, that, that, that but they might really enjoy that. So if someone has a, an offering of practice or the industry that they really enjoy and the the university has a responsibility to nurture that and not just because that person doesn't, it's not for what they like. It doesn't mean that that person is the SAT student is doing it wrong.

01:21:55:02 - 01:22:19:03
Unknown
Yeah, I think there's you've got to see like this is such we we operate in such a broad spectrum of an industry. And there's so many nuances and specialisms to it that the amount of tools that are available to go through into different areas is huge, and you shouldn't be forced into doing any particular kind of uncomfortable with.

01:22:19:03 - 01:22:42:22
Unknown
I think I think it it's go back to what you said before, you've got to find your passion, to find your direction. You've got to find your North Star. At the end of the day, you, you projects I feel were passion. I admire what you've done. It's very hard being a lead, and a design, practice runner.

01:22:42:24 - 01:22:51:16
Unknown
But, you know, your work is inspirational, and you should be really proud. I mean, that, Yeah. Oh. Well, you know, I.

01:22:51:18 - 01:23:22:23
Unknown
I represent the team, and I represent, you know, in this conversation, all the collaborators that we've partnered with on these projects. So it's a team effort. It's, you know, I'm just one cog in it. And, you know, I, I'm only as successful as the people who have shared that journey with me or worked with, like, together with and clients, collaborators, partners, consultants, you know, team, we are, you know, that's that's what shapes it.

01:23:22:23 - 01:23:40:20
Unknown
It's not a not just me. Well, I love it. And so for anyone that's watching this, if they want to get in contact with you, where can they find you? I said, what's your website on there? See what you can find me on LinkedIn. Ali. Sutton. And, yeah. Studio Sutton, our website. Studio SAS encode at UK there.

01:23:41:01 - 01:23:44:03
Unknown
Thank you so much, Harry. So thank you for coming. You know, it's we chat