Inspiring Sustainable Ways of Life, ft. Michael Woodford at White Arkitekter

Inspiring Sustainable Ways of Life_ ft_ Michael Woodford at White Arkitekter
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Stephen Drew: Oh my goodness, it's Friday! You better not have a beer in your hands. Think of that Revit mug when you come back. Someone's gotta drive it. Okay, 30 seconds. That's right. Not long till the weekend. Hump. We'll get over it together. A few more hours. Okay.

Hello everyone and welcome to this live stream special. It is Friday. You know what that means? You've got to pay a little bit more attention before the weekend. I've got a treat from [00:01:00] around the world. We've got an awesome architecture practice, the leader of a London design studio, who's going to tell us more about a practice that I've heard about internationally.

That also does projects near where I live, back home in Wales. So I am biased already, positive bias. And on that note, I have the fantastic Michael Woodford from White Architecture with me. Michael, how are you, sir? Are you okay?

Michael Woodford: I'm very good, thanks. Very good, how are you?

Stephen Drew: I'm all right. I'm feeling the Friday vibes. And thank you so much for being here because I want to learn all about white architecture. You've got the cool spelling of architecture, so immediately. In my head, it's a cool, it's a cool architecture practice, but maybe you can give us a little bit about first of all, who you are and then who white architecture is.

Michael Woodford: Yep yeah, my name's Michael Woodford. I'm an architect and I've been at White Architecture for, coming up for six years. [00:02:00] I'm a partner at The Practice and I lead the London studio. I think what was initially attractive to me about white was the international flavor. It's a Swedish practice.

I personally studied and worked in the Netherlands for a long time, worked in Amsterdam, also in London. So I really wanted to find somewhere in London to work that kind of really was, had that European flavor.

Stephen Drew: Wow. Okay. Fair enough. So you've got the line, we've got the international, we've got the flavors of all around the world, but the London studio itself. I'm interested to know how many studios are there? First of all, Michael, because it seems like it's a few, isn't it? It's quite a big organization.

The design studio, white architecture, right?

Michael Woodford: It is, yeah, I think it's 13 in total, so we've got studios across Sweden. The practice was founded originally in 1951 in Gothenburg. So that is [00:03:00] our sort of head office and the large, the largest studio is actually in Stockholm. And then we've got a number of offices dotted around Sweden, Malmo, Uppsala, right up in the north.

So all over Sweden, really. And then we have an office in Oslo. And London, and a few years ago we opened an office in Stuttgart. And actually from the London office, we're working in Canada and in Nairobi as well.

Stephen Drew: Wow, Nairobi, my goodness, we've gone a long way. So then we've got Cardiff on one end of the scale, and we've got Nairobi on the other.

Michael Woodford: We do, yes.

Stephen Drew: you'll have to forgive me, I keep butchering it. How to say it, I go white architecture. But how do I pronounce

Michael Woodford: Architecture. No,

Stephen Drew: we continue?

Architecture.

Michael Woodford: Yes.

Stephen Drew: can't do it. Architecture. Okay, hopefully I get it by the end. However. I'm not the best at it and it's a Friday, but I [00:04:00] appreciate that you're here and we'll still go for it anyways. One of the things when I was doing a bit of research on, on, on your studio White Architecture was the importance of sustainability as well.

Is that carried out in the London office with you then, Michael, in some of the projects that you do?

Michael Woodford: Absolutely. Yeah. Sustainability is core to the office. And we, it's actually written into our, the partner agreement and our strategic plan of, we've just actually done a new strategic plan about how we can reduce the carbon impact of all of our projects by 2030.

Stephen Drew: All right, so we're not messing around then it's written in the contract and you're doing it and it's all going ahead. I'm impressed. I have to admit the moment I found out you've done this super cool project in Cardiff. I don't think I can continue to do the live stream without bringing it up because, anything in basically near my hometown is really important.

Would it be okay if I bring that up and you

Michael Woodford: Absolutely, yeah, [00:05:00] absolutely.

Stephen Drew: it's a cool one. It's a good one. Wales has got a good project here. Tell me all about this cancer center, Michael.

Michael Woodford: Yeah, so a bit of background. So being such a large practice our predominant focus of the practice really is social architecture, social housing schools, education, civic buildings, but also healthcare. So we work across all sectors, but healthcare is quite a large part of what we do. And over the last 3 years or so, we've been working with the the project, the Valencia Cancer Center in Wales, which was awarded to Saseer and Kojima a partnership a year or so ago, actually now, and it's a fantastic project in Cardiff delivering cancer services for the people of Cardiff, but it has a very far advanced brief in terms of sustainability ambitions and this is really drawn out of what's called the Future Generations Act. I don't know if you're aware of this piece [00:06:00] of We legislation?

Stephen Drew: a little bit, although I'd be probably been in London for too long. Michael, for the benefit of the listeners, what does that loosely, what's that

Michael Woodford: It's an act of, it's a, it's obviously parliamentary act in Wales, specific to Wales. And what it is really is about all civic buildings needs to meet certain criteria. And one of them, in part it's around the Society in Wales, promoting the Welsh language, promoting industry and development, but also sustainability and really with a mind to what they, what is called the future generations.

So not only do we think about now, but we think about. You know our children or our grandchildren and what the impact of these projects will be for them in the future. So it's quite an amazing piece of legislation to be honest, and it really is at the root of public buildings in Wales. We think it would be good if it was in the in England as well and elsewhere in the UK.

Stephen Drew: Well,

Michael Woodford: so it's one of [00:07:00] the main driving forces and. When they created the brief for the project they really built on that in the detail around low carbon design, access to nature sort of nature based solutions working with the Welsh landscape, and obviously the benefits of all of this to, to patients who are, receiving treatment for cancer.

Stephen Drew: Makes complete sense. I'm glad that Wales is leading the front on this point, and it's a piece of legislation that you like. I just have to say, because maybe there's some audio listeners as well, but you should check out the video, because it's an absolutely beautiful project. Maybe I can go visit it at some point.

Who knows? It

Michael Woodford: Yeah, the first stages are underway. So they've done some site clearance and there's a new bridge that's been built. And hopefully sometime this year, they'll be breaking ground on the actual construction of the project. So watch this space, I think.

Stephen Drew: It looks fantastic. Now I have to move away from Cardiff as much as I like Cardiff as well. I [00:08:00] know there was another project internationally that when we were talking earlier, I gravitated towards and you kindly just would explain it cause it looks so cool. Come in as a commercial office. I'm guessing right in Uppsala, my goodness.

Michael Woodford: It's a university town outside of Stockholm, old university town, a little like Oxford or Cambridge, and we recently completed this building there, which is, as you say, is a fully timber office building. Actually LEED Platinum as well extremely low energy as you can imagine, there's a lot of trees in Sweden and and timber construction is quite a major part of what we do.

Actually around, I think it's 40 percent of our projects last year were had a timber bearing structure, which is quite incredible, really. So obviously we're aware, very aware of the various legislations in the UK, but we're still very at the forefront of promoting the use of timber and timber construction.

So the [00:09:00] image you've got there on the top of the screen is actually our office, which is one of the floors in this building. So we it's for Vasa they're one of our clients and we developed the design for them and took some of the office space.

Stephen Drew: I like it. It looks beautiful and I could stare at it for days. And it's when you see the office here, I know this is. Maybe not in, in London per se, but I do get a feel of the office cultures and what it's like to work at White. Now, maybe you can talk a little bit more about the London studio as well.

I just love to know a little bit about what studio culture that you White tries to build and does build and what's it like to work in your London office? Can you expand upon what the culture's like at all?

Michael Woodford: Yeah. Why is an employee, we're an employee owned practice have been since it was set up actually. So we. Everyone in the office is able to become a shareholder. We don't have [00:10:00] any it's not set up in the way like a UK limited company. And that sort of flows down very much into the organization.

And we take our office, our culture very seriously. And we have it's a very flat organization. We like to, hear everybody's voices in the office and it's very discursive, I would say, the way that we work. Everyone's voice can be heard. Everyone's got something to say about the project.

And we also work with a lot of our international colleagues as well. So we draw in people from our Swedish offices. We use a platform called Slack. I don't know if you've ever come across this.

Stephen Drew: Yes we use Teams, but I've used Slack before and it's also quite cool. Plus also, the Architectural President in America, the AIA, worked at Slack! Okay, you

Michael Woodford: I would say Slack's quite cool to our office it's like a sort of, it's an online chat platform for those who don't know it, and you have groups a bit like you would in WhatsApp, and we have Slack groups [00:11:00] for, everything like boring stuff like Excel, all the way through sort of Photoshop, and we've got AI Slacks now as well, and Essentially, it gives you a window to, because we have 700 employees so there's 700 people out there in all different countries and different languages who might be interested in AI, and they're all posting and talking about, not that we're not doing work as well, of course, but

Stephen Drew: Of course!

Michael Woodford: it's a very collaborative organization

Stephen Drew: I got you. It makes complete sense. I've 700, my goodness. That's quite a number. So thank gosh you got that platform. Now you did say the buzzword, the trend at the moment, that people have been talking about for the last year, AI. And if, I will keep going with why, however, many Yeah, a little sidebar because artificial intelligence, I use it in the architecture social mainly to do mundane tasks that I think can be quicker.

And sometimes I think, especially [00:12:00] chat GPT as a text can be a prompt to do stuff. I know in architecture, though, we have the whole mid journey and a few other things as well. What's your feel of AI at the moment? And do you start in experimenting with it in the company then with the work?

Michael Woodford: We are, yeah, there's a lot of interest in it in our organization. Our Chief Information Officer, he's all over that really. And I think that we're using it, as you say, already. In terms of, it's very useful for, we, in architecture, you get a lot of things like text submissions where there's text limit requirements say, 250 words.

If you want to take a piece of text that you've written that's 400 words and turn it into 250 words, it's incredibly useful for that. Or, as you say, prompting ideas. I think that ChatGTP is definitely, People are looking into ways that it could be used. And then [00:13:00] visualizations. That's a little bit, I think it's a bit problematic.

But there are, I have personally had a, dabbled with the Photoshop tools and it's incredible what it can do. And I think other things like Excel or, as you say, I think there's a lot of value that could be obtained in the more mundane tasks.

Stephen Drew: yeah,

Michael Woodford: We've also been looking at generative design.

The potential for AI to produce layouts we're working with a Swedish firm actually at the moment trialing a system for that. You put in certain criteria about how you, their system actually not to plug them too much, but they, you can put in your criteria for a sort of Scandinavian apartment typology and it will, iteratively learn.

How to do a white, white architecture style apartments, which is amazing. It's still quite fledgling and there's lots of errors that, that sort of throw up. So the human element is definitely not out, you still need it, but the technology is advancing so [00:14:00] quickly. And we're not into sort of parametric, shape making architecture, but I can imagine in that field, there's a lot of value you could have where you're producing a lot of repetitive tasks.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no I totally agree and I think you're right. It's very one, I think there's a good argument for if AI is doing the mundane stuff that normally consumes time, actually, there's an argument for AI allowing you to do more design, isn't it? And they're like, oh, I don't have to do that, I can focus on what you really want.

At the same time, I do think you're right. There's a generated image and it gets brought to a crit. The student is going to get annihilated because it's just skin deep. So I'm not worried about AI taking your job. I don't think we can

Michael Woodford: think so, no. I think it will our focus is on how can we use it to be more efficient and actually use it to enable us to do the creative tasks.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Michael Woodford: As opposed to trying to generate ideas or,

Stephen Drew: Yeah, [00:15:00] exactly.

Michael Woodford: We do a lot of number crunching in terms of carbon calculations and things like that. So I think there could be a lot of, there could be benefits in that area too.

Stephen Drew: Fair enough. Fair enough. Now, you mentioned about the cool stuff that AI is doing in Photoshop. That used to be me as a part one, scraping out the background, cleaning out the images. I guess where I'm going with this is that I'd just love to know what's it like on the ground then in your London office?

Can you visualize? Because we're Architecture 700 people, we're all on Slack, we're doing cool stuff. Really collaborative, international very cool. But what's your studio like, Michael, then, in London?

Michael Woodford: So at the moment, we've got a very Creative, diverse group of people who work in our London office and we've got some fantastic projects. So we're working with the Cancer Centre in Cambridge. We're also working on, in Cardiff, sorry, we're also working in Cambridge Children's Hospital. So we've got healthcare projects.

But we also have residential projects like [00:16:00] Gascoigne Estates with social, social housing. And we've got these big master plans in Canada that we're working on. So the team is really, got a lot of exposure to a lot of interesting things. And I think because of the way that we're quite open book with everybody just because you're a part one, you're not necessarily being parked on Photoshop or doing markups all day long.

It's really a, a place where people can, allowed to shine, you can pick up on your interests. There's absolutely no reason why people can't get involved in the wider office, start engaging people, bringing them in. We have quite a lot of talks. So we have what in Sweden is called a Fika.

So that's coffee and cake, basically. And we bring people in, outside speakers. And really since the pandemic our core focus has been to educate the team on on sustainability issues, carbon calculation, understanding the language of [00:17:00] sustainability. We bring in a lot of outdoor outside speakers or engage with other consultancies or contractors, anyone who's in the sustainability field, really.

We try to bring in the office have talking at FECAs or CPDs or events. So it's very educational as well. We also do research in our office. So we have a, we have a research fund. So anyone in the office can apply for research funding from the office itself. And so recently we redid our own office and we've used some of that research time to calculate the embodied carbon in the office, for example

Stephen Drew: Makes sense.

Michael Woodford: yeah, it's a very, it's quite a dynamic place with a very interesting range of projects, but always focusing on sustainability, really.

Stephen Drew: I like it. It is important. We only have one planet, isn't it? So anything we can do to upskill ourself in that area, I think makes a lot of sense. Now, a lot of the content that we do on the Architecture Social is [00:18:00] often built, designed, whatever you want to call it for people that are looking for jobs, or maybe at the start of the middle of their career.

Now, Michael, you've been there before, but you're running the London studio and what I'd love to know is for the listeners benefits, what kind of person then fits really well into why in terms of that you could, when you're looking for a per an architect per se, what do you look for in applications?

What do you look for when you're in an interview? I'd love any juicy insights for the audience would be appreciated.

Michael Woodford: I think we, we started with a strategy of trying to find. Scandinavians, actually, not to limit ourselves too much, but people who had either lived or worked in, somewhere in Scandinavia or in the Nordics, so that you had an understanding of that sensibility. Obviously, our part of our USP is to be a Scandinavian practice in London.

I'm not Swedish, but I, have, [00:19:00] I actually. I did part of my education in Copenhagen and that during the days of the Erasmus, I did my Erasmus in Copenhagen, spent a year there. So I think we've tended to look for people who have. Either spend some time working or studied in this in Scandinavia, but that could extend into other, European countries.

That's not obviously you get a lot of candidates through when you put out a job application and you don't want to limit yourself too much. So I think that. Alongside that, it's people who have a very strong sustainability ethos, so that really coming through in the CV and portfolio and the projects that they've worked on. And then I, for me, I'm always really interested in design skills good strong designers and that coming through in the portfolio in the way the CVs put together. So those, I [00:20:00] think those are really key factors. You're in I wouldn't underestimate the importance of being able to write well, as well, like a good letter.

Not extra long is my Tip,

Stephen Drew: The balance.

Michael Woodford: yeah, long, long letters, long CVs and long portfolios to me are, that's not worth it. If you can get it across in six or eight pages and you can get your message across, then I think that's going to be much more effective than spending hours generating reams of material.

Oh,

Stephen Drew: No, I agree. I think as an architect, you have to be able to edit the document down. Don't you? That is part of the art form. No one wants to know every single thing you've done. Mate, I, I. I controversially, I always say that the covering letter, if anything, in, in the job seeking process is probably the best candidate for ChatGPT because, you talked about it earlier, getting something succinct.

However, I don't think ChatGPT can do an architecture portfolio that, [00:21:00] that's where it really, the designer comes through. What do you look for in a portfolio then, Michael? I know we've got the Scandinavian twist, but.

Michael Woodford: I had a funny story on that, on the letter, because I actually, one of my jobs I I did get the job in the end, but I sent the wrong letter to the architect. And in the interview, the guy was like You've sent me the one that you made. You sent it to the wrong architect. That classic when you used to print them out and put them in the envelope, and you put the wrong one in the wrong envelope and posted it off.

Stephen Drew: The best thing to do

Michael Woodford: Don't get the name wrong.

Stephen Drew: yeah, just, you gotta admit your mistake, haven't you, really, and move on. Go, sorry, I have applied to a few places, I'm guessing, right? But you got the job then, you still got the

Michael Woodford: I did actually get the job in that situation. Yeah

Stephen Drew: well done. If, however, if if you crumble or shut off at that point Then maybe that wouldn't have worked.

So a good tip, but do check. I think the modern version though, is basically sending an [00:22:00] email with the different names. So dear Michael at

Michael Woodford: copy paste.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. And we can't do that. For I was one of the workers, nothing wrong with Fosters and Partners, you want to feel loved, don't you, as the employer, you want to feel like it was tailored towards yourself.

And I guess that might ruin the immersion, right?

Michael Woodford: exactly. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I'm

Michael Woodford: Sorry, I interrupted your question there.

Stephen Drew: now it's all good. We're all chilled out. If people aren't on the pub, they're probably just relaxing anyways. It makes complete sense. Now I was going to ask more about what was I going to ask? I've gone, I've lost my thing as well.

So you got Cardiff. That's really cool. You've talked about the culture, which is amazing. What's next for white? What's coming up then, Michael? What is the London studio working on now then?

Michael Woodford: So we're working on our next plan. We've actually just done a plan for the next four years.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Michael Woodford: We want to continue working with health projects. So we're actively. Seeking further healthcare projects. But [00:23:00] we also want to build on our success, particularly with Diagonal Embarking in, in the Gascoigne Estate.

So we're looking, bidding at the moment for a couple of addition of further social housing or housing projects with A high social content so really we'd like to balance out the residential market in the UK over the last couple of years has been a bit quiet, I would say. So we've been lucky that we were building out these projects in Barking and we've just completed them and we've got another one which is about to be completed by Waitz very soon.

But I don't know whether it's the outcome of Grenfell, the two staircase issue, a lot of projects have been parked waiting clarification around these different legislations. I have a feeling that housing will, obviously there's a major need in the UK for us to build homes, like we build about less than 100, 000 a year I think, and we need to build.

300,000 per year. So we are, we're way off what we need to be building enough [00:24:00] housing. And that's, it's also core to what we do. So I think building the office more in a balance of housing, of residential master urban design and health healthcare. So we have a bit more of a mixed portfolio.

And we're also looking to try to work. with circular economy projects, if we can. Not entirely sure how you make business out of that if you like, but it's more part of our research at the moment. And we're part of a, actually this morning I was on a circular economy forum with Enfield Council.

So there's a real growing group of like almost grassroots people who are Trying to look at how we can reuse buildings, not just transformation, but all the stuff that comes out of buildings.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Michael Woodford: Ceiling tiles, floor tiles, everything that gets ripped out of a building. What do we do with it?

How can we reuse it in another building elsewhere? So we're really focusing on that as well.

Stephen Drew: You do beautiful buildings. I'll give you [00:25:00] that. I have no doubt that we will definitely see more. I did hear from, I did speak to one developer who basically said that they were waiting for. The the old the interest to drop, from the bank and goodness knows how long that will be.

However, his view was that once that wavers and goes down a little bit, then residential will pick up and rise. And hopefully then that would be really good because like you said, we've got that need that the needs not going away, isn't it? So we just got to get the, you touched upon earlier, the Excel sheets.

We just need to just make it slightly more, I don't know, more of a

Michael Woodford: stack up for the developers a little more. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: That's part of it. Now, I know we've been from Stockholm. We've gone, I don't know, to Cardiff. We've gone around the world and stuff as well. So I really appreciate that. However, I've been asking all the questions willy nilly.

You get to ask me a few questions or one question if you want as well. I've alluded. That I've been in Wales, you've done this project in Wales, but I'm also [00:26:00] involved in, I don't know, a few other architecture stuff as well. Is there anything, Michael, you want to ask me on the spot? Give me a zinger. Go for it.

Michael Woodford: What's your, I know you're in recruitment, but what's your view on, in, on, on the sort of out, fallout from Brexit, I think it's, recruitment in architecture is quite difficult, I think. And Brexit is one of the problems and. I think, I don't know, I'm just curious to know what you think.

Stephen Drew: good question. I think one of the best things about architecture is it's quite multicultural, right? We, London attracts the best people from around the world because we have kick ass designers here like yourself, others, famous names. We all know them in London, which is great.

However, Brexit was not good and it's going to get even more difficult. Answering your question, but adding a little bit more to it. They're looking, Michael, at changing the skilled visas now. So before it, [00:27:00] yeah, it was like you have to earn 28, 000 or something, which is effectively. Part two and above, part one's got no chance in the heck.

Oh and that's another conversation altogether, but if they raise it up to 39, 000 pounds to get a visa, my worry is that we're going to lose part twos or recent architects and all that stuff, because it's not as easy as just whacking up everyone's salaries because it's fee, fees, the whole industry, it's not good.

You can't just whack it up 25 to 30%. Based upon bringing this visa in. So I reckon to answer your question, it's been quite difficult, Michael, for people post Brexit, but still working. Luckily, there was like graduate visas where you get a talented grad, and you get them for two years without worrying a sponsor and all that stuff.

And by then, if someone fits in there, great, you'd probably extend the visa or do what's needed, right? Perfect. But they're changing things, Michael, as it stands now. And I worry that. I worried that the perception, [00:28:00] and while, listen, architecture is an amazing profession, look at the beautiful buildings you've done, look at the office culture you talked about, but the, I think the public thinks that we're all on loads more money than we actually are, and I think that in government, they go, Oh yeah, we'll just raise the skill visa thing up 10 grand.

And it's actually, this is, this, we're not canary wharf bankers, it's architects, it's different. It's a strange and amazing profession where it's half vocation, half, serious building, all that stuff. And, I worry it's out of touch. Long ramble, but hopefully in there, you can feel how I think.

I'm worried about the next step. Basically, my answer is it's been difficult post Brexit, but not impossible. And now if the skill visas are changing, I worry we could lose that multicultural London architecture hub that we have where people literally bring all this different color, flair, design, backgrounds, to, to the

Michael Woodford: Yeah, I agree. It is not just architecture either. It's other creative [00:29:00] industries, music, fashion. They're all gonna suffer from that. I was. Yeah we, I was just discussing, look we were just talking about someone who was potentially going to come across on a visa with the visa cap, and then they've made this change, which I know doesn't come in until May, but I think it's May, is it, or later this year but that's a whole other threshold, really.

It's way beyond, it's, you're into the, Beyond part threes and yeah, it's really difficult.

Stephen Drew: Experienced people.

Michael Woodford: many talented people. And as you say, like our office at the moment is very much a, mixing part of people, people from the UK, but people from all over. And that's always been the case in architecture in London, certainly across the country.

So it's, yeah, we'll see what happens, but I think there will be a smaller pool of people, and it's going to be difficult, I think, to recruit. Recruitment's going to be harder.

Stephen Drew: I think there is always where there's a will, there's a way. And I do [00:30:00] think though any architects and you in the audience, I think it's important at this point, we're very vocal about this and so that things do come back and do go all the way to the top of the tree and then exceptions can be made.

So I think now is the time. To talk about this and to discuss this problem so that it doesn't go too far, because it'd be a shame, Michael, like you said, to lose that talented person that was going to come because parliament has just decided this rule when they don't really understand our sector and industry.

So let's all, I think, get vocal about it, talk about it. And when I say vocal, I don't mean we're going to go with pitchforks, but I think like we have to make a bit of a noise of you've got to cut through the existing noise there and and fight our corner on it. But anyway, I promise not to rant on too much Michael You've been an absolute star.

I really appreciate it now last thing before you go. I know I brought the website up at the start, but if someone's joined us halfway or what have you, how do they [00:31:00] find all the beautiful work? How do they get in touch with you? Please let us know.

Michael Woodford: Us being very open, but all of our emails and phone numbers are on our websites.

Stephen Drew: Don't say that salespeople are gonna ring you up.

Michael Woodford: But they are. All the projects are on there. It's all full disclosure. Even our sustain, if you dig around, you'll find our sustainability report on here, which has all of the information about our office, our culture, our projects. Even the financials. So it's all on our website. You can, there's a slight, if you're Swedish, you can click on the Swedish version up the top as well which has slightly different projects on it.

Stephen Drew: Oh, okay.

Michael Woodford: but yeah, you can get in touch through that.

Stephen Drew: Excellent. Thank you so much, Michael. I really appreciate you being here and everyone should get in touch and check out White Architect. Hopefully I did it right at the end,

Michael Woodford: Yes. Perfect.

Stephen Drew: Here, Michael. Stay on the stage one second while I say goodbye to everyone in the [00:32:00] audience.

Thank you for tuning in, whether you're watching this on the replay, Are you watching it live? I really appreciate you being here. More content to come out soon. However, we might see White back if Michael's not fed up with me. Who knows? Maybe he can come back in this next project in Cardiff. Have a lovely day, everyone.

And me and Michael will see you soon online in some shape or form. Take care, everyone.

Michael Woodford: Bye. Thanks.