Jason Boyle - Architect, Mentor and Fellow of the RIBA

Jason Boyle - Architect, Mentor and Fellow of the RIBA
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, I am Stephen Drew from the Architecture Social. It's Friday, Friday afternoon, and I have the pleasure of having an extra special guest on the Architectural Social, someone that actually in part inspires the Architectural Social. I haven't said that before, but Jason, you are an inspiration for the Architectural Social, partly because of all the stuff you do in terms of mentoring, but Jason, you are an architect and As you were an architect in the day, you're a mentor in the evening, you, you, you sound like all around superman.

Do you want to just tell us to the audience a little bit about who you are, what you're about

Jason Boyle: and,

Stephen Drew: Where

Jason Boyle: you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you Stephen, for that fantastic introduction. Yeah, I'm, I'm an architect. I've been an architect for 20 years, believe it or not. And I think it was back in 2017, became a fellow of the RIBA.

And then it [00:01:00] snowballed and became a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. And what, what I'm really passionate about since, since getting the fellowships is actually helping younger architects or anyone in construction with the power of. Mentoring and mindset. And I've, I've been working with, I think it's 17 people now for the last three years and helping, you know, helping people succeed in architecture.

That's what I want people to do. I want people to succeed.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. And that kind of, that was, as you said, that comes from your career in architecture as well, and that's what's important to mention. So, I can see you've worked, so, back in, back in the old days, so if we go, if we go way back when, so you started working at Shepherd Robson.

Jason Boyle: I did. I did when they were a very small office. I think there were like six of us. And we were, we were just underneath Stephen Hodder's office. Yeah. And it was fantastic experience. Obviously working in a large practice. [00:02:00] I've worked in large practices, medium, and even very small practices as well.

All in Manchester.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. And look, it's, it's really interesting to talk about Ukraine and why it's important though, is because to me, when you're talking about mentoring, we're going to talk about current events, but it's really important that you have been working in architecture for many, many years.

You're still working in architecture now. And I did listen to one of the other podcasts as well. And I think you did, you did a great one about mentoring and we can talk about that there, but it is interesting what you do right now because you just. You have been an architect for over 12 years for Sellafield and a lot of it is working in the nuclear interest industry, which in my, in my head, and I know it's not like this.

I always imagine Homer Simpson in that, you know, it is like little bunker press having a little sleep, but I'm sure it's far from that. It's a highly complicated and it's a highly strategic role. But for anyone that's [00:03:00] unfamiliar with nuclear architecture, do you want to give like a little insight into the.

Jason Boyle: Sure. Yeah, again, I don't think it's any any sort of architect sets out in their career thinking they're going to work in the nuclear industry you know, and I fell into it essentially just through the recession. And I think the, the, the people who were there and, and Paul Rainford Miller was the principal architect of Sellafield and we had chats about me joining the company and he's.

not sadly no longer with us. But he, he, he self explained to me what, what, what I could, the role architects play in, in, in designing very complex buildings, because in the UK, as in other countries with nuclear facilities, you know, we've got to, we've got a legacy to deal with. And every building is very unique.

It's very specialized in terms of dealing with reducing the nation's radioactive material. And so, and that's what it does. So we work with many different disciplines, probably the most multidisciplinary [00:04:00] projects you could ever imagine. You know working with process engineers. Human factors.

We're working with structural, civil, mechanical you know, to deal with really complex problems. I think what people don't really, probably won't understand is these buildings take between 7 and 10 years to complete. Wow. So they're major, major projects and you know, you might only do one or two of these things in your career.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, you well, there you go. So 12 years, that means what you've done, one of the bit buildings. Exactly. I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that. And I gigle when you said, because you say no one dreams that initially to become a nuclear architect than, Hey, I studied architecture and I'm a recruitment consultant, so I have the exact same conversation on the dinner table, like what happened , but, but life kind of, takes you on a different journey and you learn things along the way. And, and so let's talk about briefly why you got drawn to mentoring.

Jason Boyle: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:05:00] think there's, there's a lot, a lot of talk in the last, I think probably five years, definitely about mental health and architecture is a really, really tough profession, as you probably know, Stephen, you know, it's like a seven year process.

It's we've got big financial problems now to becoming an architect, nevermind just doing the, the actual seven years, the seven year journey you go on, it's probably longer than any other profession. You know, and I wanted to help people through that process. Because I think a lot of people in the industry in the construction industry, not just architecture put off by the challenges, the salaries, the you know, the whole juggling of debt.

But I still believe despite what people read on LinkedIn and I've had comments that you can actually have a fantastic career in architecture. You know, it's just, it's just looking at ways to do that. I think a lot of [00:06:00] traditional practice, running a traditional practice is probably dead. Probably people don't want to hear that, but I think the key, the key to my success and other people's success I could mention is definitely specializing in a particular area.

Becoming an expert in a particular field. So my, my next venture and obviously still working for Sellafield and still working in the nuclear industry is to build on helping people and mentoring is just a real passion of mine.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. And look, it's, it was, it's kind of inspirational for me. So we talked about it briefly because we had a phone call a few months ago, which I really enjoyed because when I was, because I was Basically, because because of architectural recruitment kind of dip down, especially in the first wave, hope we don't go into a second wave, Jason, I'm going to be in a bit of trouble, but I joke around.

The point was part time. What I did was I kind of felt we needed something and the architectural social [00:07:00] just as much as. Hopefully it gives value for other people. It was really helpful to me from a mental energy and to kind of keep the juices flowing. And we had a little chat, isn't it? And I remember you reached out on LinkedIn and I thought, Oh, I'm sure we're going to get along as soon as you messaged.

You were like, look, I'm a little bit old school. Give me a ring on my mobile. And I was like, yes, that's what I quite like. Cause we got to embrace these new technologies, but you can't forget that it's all about. Getting along with people, speaking to people. And I quite like that. Now we can see each other on this, it's going to come out online.

It's going to be on Spotify, but what's quite nice is that why I even like this platform that we're on this called Squadcast and it's that we can see each other's face while we're talking. And it's important. I think with technology to still kind of have that old ways. And what I like about your mentoring is that, and we talked, we touched upon one or two people in particular, such as Colleen with her fantastic artwork that's, you know, shot up and [00:08:00] she's a mentor, a mentee.

I think that's the correct term, isn't it? Through yourself. But what I find was quite interesting from what you told me as well, it's a combination of. You've got your WhatsApp groups and in the podcast, you talked about how you're structuring it, but it's very much old, traditional ways and methodologies using new technology.

So in terms of mentorship, in terms of everything you do, do you still find it's really important to have that kind of conversation like we did on the phone or face to face conversations as well in this new digital world?

Jason Boyle: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a number of people in the in my mentoring group, and we hold an event every year in Manchester to for the people that can't have that face to face mentoring.

So you know, there's people from all over the country, Scotland, London, and they come to Manchester once a year to have this. We have this weekend. And yeah, [00:09:00] embracing the technology. I think this is the probably the first year I would say that We've heavily used things like zoom and digital conferencing, you know, it was there, it was always there, but everyone was tinkering with it.

And it's just really, it's really blown up this year. And, you know, it's, I think I do, I do always think the face to face and meeting in person is. The best way, but this is, this is, this has got to be the second best way of, of, of actually communicating with people.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And it's, it's interesting as well that there's also chances for people to kind of blossom in this, in this space as well.

So let's talk literally about Colleen as amazing. So in terms of read the journal, she's actually it's well, she's published the drawings, the official drawing for David Adjani.

Jason Boyle: It just came through today, the RPA journal through my door. Yes, I opened, I opened it up. Obviously it's online as well, but I've [00:10:00] just opened up the journal and actually sent, sent it across to her.

So again, I think it's like yourself, Steven, you know, you've, you've created this architect social when you're on furlough essentially, you know, and. You, you did something with that time, something that's really powerful and, you know, people should, you should be applauded for doing that. It's, it's a, it's a great, it's a great thing.

And Colleen did the same thing because she was very much you know, asking me, what do I do now? You know, I don't know what's going to happen at the end of, furlough and how can I make the most of my time? And I like that attitude in people, you know, and I could see the talent she was in because she started doing just portraits for friends and family.

This is how it all started. And I said, you've got to turn this into a business. Stop, stop doing your work for free, this work, you know, people will pay for it. So we, so we set up a strategy and, and, and looked at [00:11:00] business ideas of actually starting to get her work out there. She set up the website, but she did this so quick.

you know, and this is, this is, these are the type of people I like to work with where they say, right, you need to build a website. You need to get your social media set up. I think she did it in a couple of days. And then it was, it was straight onto the, into doing the portraits.

Stephen Drew: It's amazing. And you touched upon something really interesting there that I also struggle with and the advantages of.

Mentoring is that you can kind of reflect these issues. So you've got more experience and you've kind of seen things from a business sense, but like Colleen you know, it's quite an innocent thing. And I've done it as well at first, especially when you're getting into the industry, you naturally think you're going to do drawings.

And the best thing to do is it's for free and that's nice, but. The point is, it's okay to charge for fees for things sometimes, and it's okay to establish self worth, and I don't know whether that's a side joke sometimes, maybe it's a [00:12:00] British thing that we're too polite or what, but I think that this, this problem I've seen, it transcends, it can transcend architecture, it can transcend recruitment, and, and it's, and What I find happening in recruitment as being a culture shock for me, Jason, is that traditionally what you'll find sometimes in terms of recruitment is saying that you need someone for your team, you might have two or three architectural recruitment companies on board, and normally there's a fee established upon delivering that person.

Now, that's the traditional way to go about it. So that means that you pay me nothing up front. Now, the downside of that means that what happens is that then there's a race. to get you the CV to send things across because that's the billable. That's how the fee is generated in terms of recruitment.

And what I've seen in terms of architecture, and you've worked in architecture longer, but examples of maybe working for free, working for competitions, if you don't get that, then it can put staff in a precarious situation as [00:13:00] well. And, and, and with Colleen right now, the fact is that if she can, charge for the beautiful drawings, and that's what we kind of establish here.

They're great drawings, but it goes towards her, it goes towards her livelihood in a, in a time of need, and then she can better do her craft. So, she can charge more money for her portraits as well, because she's more established. Yeah, and, and so. What it's, this is, this is what I've enjoyed about us talking everything.

And so for anyone listening out there, I would almost encourage that attitude of pushing commercial viability. It's almost like in these times like these, you're going to feel under pressure. You're going to feel like, Oh, maybe I should slash my fees to be competitive. But in doing that, you're kind of devaluing yourself.

You're devaluing what you do. I mean, what's your kind of thoughts on that?

Jason Boyle: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think we, I think. Architects and artists and even people in other people in the construction industry give [00:14:00] give valuable advice away for free as well. I mean, I'm guilty of it with a lot of the mentoring because a lot of the mentoring I have done for free.

But you know, not anymore. It's what the advice I'd give is always this. People are always willing to pay for things. So, you know, I've got an iPhone in front of me here. People are willing to pay a fortune for this. I'm sure it doesn't cost the thousand pounds. I think that this phone ends up costing.

So there is value in in good design and good sort of portraits that Colleen does. She's got a very certain style. I think that's, what's unique about her. She, she honed her style very quickly and it's almost now You can see a Colleen portrait, you know, from the style that she does. And that's, and that's what you've got to do.

So you've got to get that style, get that, you hone your craft and then charge for it. I'll give you an example of exactly what you were talking about [00:15:00] though. Clean, I'm not going to mention the person that this, this this affects architects, but she had sort of set up from this is how much it's going to cost.

She'd sent the work through, she'd, you know, had, had some comments back and then sent some final things through. She'd sent the invoice through to this particular person. And then, you know, I'd sort of asked the question cause we were. Speaking every week about how things were going and I said, Oh, did you get paid for, you know, for that, for that last portrait you did and you, that you posted on social media and she said, Oh, no, I said, I've not got paid.

I said, okay, pick up the phone now. I said, well, I picked up the phone and I actually said, right, while we're on this phone, type an email to this person, reminding them that they, the bill is outstanding. She did that. An hour later, she was paid and he just simply forgot, just simply, you know,

Stephen Drew: yeah. And I think that's [00:16:00] a really good example because I think again, I've done that when I had my own recruitment business, you almost, you do the service.

And then I remember the feeling of feeling embarrassed to ask for the fee. You know, you're like, you're like, sorry, Jason, hi. Do you mind? I know, I know you're busy, but do you mind if you have a spare moment? Do you mind having a look at my invoice? Which is natural, but now it's like invoice boom. And I think there's something as well.

I, that where's my, where McDonald and the company being really good. And, and I've learned as well is that actually some sticking to a strong fee. What you've got to remember is that okay. If you pay me a higher fee per se, it's not because I'm sitting here giggling and then I get a higher fee when. If, if I ask for a command, a higher fee, then in relation to that, I I, and you expect for a higher quality service.

And therefore I think as well, we've retained work or anything like that. So paying Colleen upfront or paying in recruitment or paying for architecture upfront, what then it [00:17:00] allows you to do or me to do is that then I can enable my team, get people on board to do a really good job. Canvas the market or an article would be, you know, do a full blown brief to a full blown report of what we're doing.

Or in Colleen's instance, you know, she's got the time and energy to research the person and do a really good, fantastic job of getting the art pace. And so that's why I always throw it back to is that and now what I sometimes say to clients is I can work at any fees, but let's go through the lists of the stuff I do and let's cut stuff out.

And so a good example would be like meeting people in person while I can't do that with a lower fee. Oh, no, we want that. And then that's the point is establishing through that you establish your worth and through charging you establish your worth. And I think through that you get amazing clients. And then people respect you for it as well.

Jason Boyle: I think I think you're right. And I think what's what I just add to that is it's always really important. To set your start [00:18:00] right at the start to get, get that rule that, you know, this is my work. I expect to be paid and you've got to be really hard on that first, that first sort of thing with the client.

So they know what you're about because after, if you, if you, you know, you're almost apologizing for your fees or invoices. You know, they, they, they, they're just going to let that roll and it's always hard to claw back and I've, I've gone, I'm mentoring some young architects who are in business themselves, and that is one of the main topics that come up.

Actually getting paid or clients may be spending too much time asking spending too much time with the architects. But obviously it waters down their fee. You know, so you've got to say, look, if you want more time, it's going to cost this much. So it's always about, it's always about getting them ground rules set right at the beginning.

Stephen Drew: Hmm. I completely agree. And that's why I quite enjoy it. We're talking about the sticky [00:19:00] subjects because getting paid and all this stuff, it's a very tricky one. And I think with time, what you're talking about is it comes with time, a bit of confidence, a bit of belief. You know, if you've done a good job on something and it's been established at the start, you're quite in your right to ask for that free.

You're quite in your right to ask for getting paid. The other point that I think that you're really good at as well. And I kind of, when we've joked a little bit as well, because on LinkedIn, you've got 28, 000 connections and I know the limits for 80, 000. So I was teasing you about who's going to be let in and I'm on 20, 000 as well.

But the number of sides. I think what the other bit in terms of architecture, which is really important as well is getting out there and getting involved. And so again, we're, we're talking about Colleen and Colleen, if you're listening, love what you do. The point is she needs to get out there and network.

Like I, the way I get out there and network and the way you're on LinkedIn, I think it's so important to be connected. And that's what the McDonald and company [00:20:00] slogan is, which at first I was like. Be connected. What do you mean? But now I really believe that I've actually the more you speak to people, you were kind enough to speak to me before.

And then we organically come to here. I think in architecture, you have to get involved and you have to get out there. And in my experience, You have to make a bit of that effort. It doesn't always come to you. So, I mean, what's your kind of thoughts on networking and getting involved and any advice along that line for anyone listening?

Well,

Jason Boyle: networking is massively powerful. I mean, it really is. You know, I've, I've managed to go to Rome and speak and lecture and get paid, get paid, not just you know, flights and accommodation. So, so that, that was, that came through LinkedIn. You know, people seem to see me post on LinkedIn about certain subjects and then and that connection is still there with, with that university.

Colleen, you know, back to Colleen, she, I think she hardly had any [00:21:00] followers was barely posting. She didn't see any benefit in LinkedIn when we. Started this mentoring process, you know, 12 months ago, and now she's on there, you know, daily getting more clients that way and pushing out her portraits.

She's across all platforms. She was she's, she's, you know, she'll tell you, she's quite a shy person, you know, and I think there's, there's a lot of people who are shy, but still have got a massive social media presence. So, you know, you can hide behind the social media. I don't think it's something I'd do.

I don't know whether you'd do that. You definitely don't strike me as that person.

Stephen Drew: No, we're definitely around on LinkedIn. You're definitely in my feed, and I think I'm in a lot of people's feed as well. And what I would say about that, and Again, I'm sure you agree, and we will talk about this, because I think the polls, and you know what I mean with the polls, definitely brings it up.

I think one of the reasons people get intimidated with being online [00:22:00] is that, it reminds me a bit like, because I used to be a bit of a gamer geek, and I used to play, I think it was World of Warcraft or Star Wars, and there used to be a forum online, and I remember once I posted something on there, and I absolutely got destroyed in the Star Wars game.

You can't say that, you can't. And I remember years ago thinking like, I'm never posting on that forum again and, and I think what can happen on, on, on these, on these forums or online or LinkedIn, you're going to, sometimes you're going to say something and not everyone is going to agree or you get that guy or lady that says something.

That's my kind of rule is, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this is that. Sometimes in life, you get perfectionists sometimes. And I get that. But with me, if you look back on the early, the architecture social podcast, the first ones aren't polished, right? I don't like the thumbnails. But if I go back, if I go back, Jason, and you know this, you got a family, you got kids, everything.

Yeah. That you're just going to be [00:23:00] wasting time. And so it's about evolving or growing. And not everything I post online Lands well, or sometimes things go big hit sometimes don't, but you kind of have to, as long as you're not offending anyone, but when I, but we'll make a distinction that you can, you can kind of sometimes it's, it's okay saying a controversial point, as long as I think that you're not being rude to someone, but do you agree as well about being online and being out there and kind of be in front of the front?

Jason Boyle: Yeah, it's again, it's It is always a risk. I think when people start posting, they're worried about what other people think. But you, you, you're asking for people's opinions and you want debate. And you know, I don't, I don't preach to be the best architect in the world. I don't, you know, I don't, I don't know everything.

But I've got a voice and my opinion is it means something. And you know, the polls so interesting to talk about that because [00:24:00] You know, sometimes you really don't know what, what is going to work, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll spend lots of time, you know, on, on an evening sort of, you know, writing a great post, seeing something you think is fantastic, you'll post it, and then I've got 28, 000 people, no one interested, no one commented, and then you'll put up, like I saw, I think we talked about this, someone had put, they had gone back to work, They'd put a jacket potato on it on their laptop.

Okay, and they had put a filling in the jacket potato And they posted this picture and they said what's your favorite jacket potato topping that went Viral across LinkedIn, everyone was commenting, I think there were like three or four thousand comments, you know, I would never have thought that that would work.

Stephen Drew: Do you know what though? I got a laugh because when you talk about that, it [00:25:00] makes me giggle in my head because I've never gone as viral as that jack of potato. But, but at the same time, right, I do like it to feed a little bit back into what I do because, you know, sometimes I do believe that these memes that float around the LinkedIn.

There's a few people looking at them and I think that that can be the person at work quote unquote, like working, but no, you're not really, LinkedIn feed. So the polls that you've done, I think are a little bit more substantial than the jackpotato because we have a relevant industry debate and that's the point.

The poll and you tell me or not. So what happened lately is you posted and you can tell me the particular numbers, but you just said, yeah, what do you think an architect salary salary should be? That was one or two of them. But what was the main one that kicked off the big debate? The big thing that Rem Reba reposted and everything?

Jason Boyle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is, this is where I posted about this, the salary that architects get [00:26:00] compared to other professions, like a doctor or a lawyer. Right. So I did like, I thought quite a nice preamble because with the polls, it's very constricted in the character allowance and how many options you can have.

So I did like a nice preamble saying, you know, architects take seven years, doctors take six. But the reward, the financial reward is, is much more reduced than what a doctor. lawyer get when they qualify. It's a fact. I mean, you can, you know, it just is. And I got I, I, I just put that on as my first poll and it went huge.

Now it didn't go, it didn't necessarily go huge in the, The conversion rate of 28, 000 followers into 28, 000 people voting. Now it was run about 160 mark of people voting, but the comments, I got near enough as many comments as people voting. Seven comments I got before the poll closed. You know, it was, [00:27:00] it's fascinating reading because they've given me.

They've given me all the reasons why they believe that architects are not valued and not paid well, which is great. You know, it's great. It's great information. I had a few yeah, a few interesting debates, which you might have seen.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I thought it was brilliant because what, what was genius about it?

And we've, and you've you've heard my opinion on this as well, is that basically you offered. A fact, and you didn't assert your opinion, you just put a few posts and a few replies that LinkedIn would allow. And what that did, and this is my opinion of it, is that I think that it, for some people, it can be a little bit of a tough question because if you're talking about salary and worth, It can feel personal, and I completely understand that if, for instance, you worked somewhere for a long time, you work really hard and the salary has an increase for numerous reasons.

Now, what's [00:28:00] important to say is that you are not saying, is your worth there or that? But what was interesting, and I joke, is that I think some of the pitchforks came out because It was a very divisive subject. It's like, Jason, what are you buying? And I think you did a really good job of just saying, like, I'm asking your opinion.

You can do your own poll. Don't worry. I'm just asking. It was, it was an opinion piece, but it does raise some people's backs on this subject because, you know, it, maybe it can get a bit personal for people, but the point was you're not trying, you were interested in

Jason Boyle: people's answers. Yeah, I'm interested. In people's opinion on it, as I think it's a subject that it's, it's the one question that I get asked and people discuss in architecture.

You know, it is, it's the number one question and people don't like to probably say that online, but we're, you know, we're all we study for a long time. Why aren't we getting paid enough? And yes, [00:29:00] there's no one foster out there, you know, on the salary of 2 million pounds a year. So obviously architecture can pay.

There's, there's other practices, you know, that have gone bust and the liquidators have actually said to them, you know, the business is not financially viable. So, you know, it's, I'm interested in people's comments and people's opinions and LinkedIn's I think is a real, a really good way of.

getting that getting that opinion. It's a professional network. And but yeah, some of the, some of the comments I've just I've really enjoyed sort of reading. I don't know whether you have.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I have. And it can, it can be a bit of a giggle sometimes, but that's the thing. It's like we've talked about before.

You were happy to post that how people can all have their voice. Everyone was here and. Yeah, sometimes it's a bit of a tricky situation, but when you were saying that, and this is where it's really important, we talked a bit about fees before, and I'm not going to talk about fees for ages, but it was really interesting in terms of architecture, again, it goes back to that [00:30:00] thing, in my opinion, Jason, a lot of problems in architecture come from if the fees aren't established at the start, and I mentioned this with a colleague before, but it's really important.

What normally happens is, and it's like everything in life, when, when, when you've got less budget to work on a project, then likely what happens is, say now you have less money in this hypothetical Jason Boyle architects because your fees are low, then the current staff you have have to work longer hours.

You can't afford recruitment consultants because that's a luxury you can't afford. You've got to go direct. You can't afford marketing so much. You can't afford these things. And then what the biggest problem is though, is that when staff then get you know, unhappy or then they leave and then that's actually a more, much more massive cost to the business.

And then I have to come in and then my fees are involved in that. So it's kind of like this. I think Arctic self value and self worth and getting that fees right at the start and pushing for the best fees actually alleviates a lot of the problems, which is kind of what you were [00:31:00] talking about earlier.

Jason Boyle: It does. It does. And you know, if you've got low fees, it's just a, it's just a rush to the bottom and it just doesn't stack up financially. It doesn't stack up financially. There's no point in doing it. I mean, there isn't you know, it's, it's, it's quite hard to say that, but if the money isn't there to do that job, then you just don't do the job, you know, cause the risk, what is the risk?

You know, I think, I think studying architecture, becoming an architect. It's a risky business now,

Stephen Drew: you know, wow. Okay. That's an interesting statement. I mean, why do you think and just get a bit of a flavor, we're talking, we're talking organically now, but what do you mean in terms of what, what do you mean in terms of risk?

Jason Boyle: Yeah, this is just my, this is my opinion. You know, not, not, not my companies or anyone else or the RIBA. It's my opinion that, you know, you study for seven years. You can come out with 70, 000 pounds worth of debt now your salaries, as you can see, if you, if you see my polls, a lot of the [00:32:00] polls are still live, please and you can see the salary that when you nearly qualify on an average salary, it's not going to sustain you to pay back that debt or to get yourself on the housing ladder.

It's not like a sudden leap into a really good job. Mostly you'll get, you'll be. Get into a practice. You'll have to work your way up for the next 10 years. You, you might set up on your own which, which may be a good thing, but then you've got all the problems of getting the fees in. So it, it, it is a risky business when you look at it.

If you, if you if you sort of looked at how much money you need for a mortgage to have kids, you know, you add all of that in. And then you look at what salary you could earn over 10 years. I don't know if anyone's actually stacked that up, you know, you, you, you know, and the risk of losing the job, you've got the recessions, you know, it is a risky business.

I'm not, I'm not saying it's not worth [00:33:00] doing. I'm just saying, be aware of it. Be aware of the risks when you go into it and see you can make them adjustments.

Stephen Drew: I think that's really well said because I, I, there's a, there's a reason I studied architecture and I, even though I don't work directly in architecture right now, I love being involved into the architecture industry.

And I love what the degree and diploma did because stuff like, like this now or talking to people and there's nothing like doing crits in life. So for you to learn a thick scale, that's a really good life lesson. You know, being torn to pieces and then bringing yourself back up and then doing it the next time and, you know, fighting your ground is, is a life skill that I think is, is, is so essential.

And then, you know, architects, you do so much, but that's this. And I love your explanation there because the point is you say risky, but if you're aware of it, I still, I think that. It's absolutely fine for graduates right now. And look, there's something awesome about architecture where [00:34:00] the point is, it's even like what you're doing with nuclear.

The reason why, and it's like that analogy of when people are watching Coronation Street and everyone's putting their kettle on, you literally deal with the infrastructure so that the powers, everyone in the UK can have a cup of tea whenever they want because you're literally powering, you know, the country.

And what I think the brilliant thing with architecture is never lose sight of the fact that, you know, you can work on hospitals, which save lives. Look at we're in the coronavirus right now. You've

Jason Boyle: got the doctors, the doctors I've got to I've got to perform their operations in hospital. I mean, that's hospital.

Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Schools. Yeah, we've got schools. So even for instance, I like, I would love working in, I, I remember I was in a rented when I had my own business, I had a WeWork office and it was like a pleasure to be there. So architecture improves lives. Okay. What we're just saying though, and this is my opinion, but my [00:35:00] opinion comes from.

Working in architecture and working in recruitment is sometimes what I say is that you have got to always fight for your salary. Well, always got to push for it. I think you can, if you work hard and you deliver schemes, you always have a really good case, especially if you've got a good work ethic to push for your salary.

Yeah. I would advise anyone to do that, but as you said, as well, architecture, I do think though, is definitely an aspect of it that you have to do it because you love it. And if you are just solely interested in it for money, it is not the career for you. A hundred percent.

Jason Boyle: Yeah, if you, if you, you're absolutely right.

And I think it's important that you make that distinction, you know. You should not go into the, this profession if it's solely about the money. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you a very quick story. When I was in practice in Manchester, we had some work experience a guy come, come in for a couple of weeks.

And I asked him the question that I think everyone would ask is like, why do you want to [00:36:00] become an architect? You know, why did you want to come in this, into this office? And he turned around to me and he said, Oh, because they, you want a good salary. I went, I went really, I said, where have you heard this from?

And he said, he said, Oh, my my parents, my parents, I said, Oh, your parents, architects. Oh no, no, no. But they've heard it's a very well paying profession. And so I said to him, I said, what, what do you think I am then? You know, what do I, what do you think? And this is when I was first in practice. And he said, Oh, 60, 000.

And I was like, so I was like, you know, I was just really had to sort of sit down with him and sort of take him through and not destroy his dreams, but just make him aware. I think if we're all aware of the situation, if we're aware of the risks, we're aware of what we're going into, I think then everyone is you, you, you don't shatter them dreams.[00:37:00]

You know,

Stephen Drew: yeah. And that's where I want to go with this because this is not about, and then please anyone listening, and I'm more than happy to talk about it as well. I'm not complaining or I'm not it's just no one's problem per se. What I'm on about is that there's always an opportunity, but what we're talking about is when you establish fees or like when Colleen's billing work, the point is.

There's skillset. If, if Colleen's artwork wasn't good and I like it, then no one would pay. And what we're on about is that when you're doing a good building or when you're a good architect, think about the, the commercial return for it. Think about the fact that if you can. You can charge a higher fee in your own architectural practice and you can start pushing for quality and start pushing for what you believe quality demands, then you have a better quality of life as well.

Things get easier and you can pay staff a bit more and staff then appreciate that and the benefits and work culture and it all [00:38:00] kind of trickles into this magic formula that everything slowly goes up. And that's what we're talking about. It's more about raising the bar because we're worth it. Not and what would the tone is here?

It's not like, oh, well, we're not paid. And just give up. And now we're going to whinge. It's about highlighting problems and talking about it. And that's what I like about the poll because it isn't. It isn't doing it to stir up, it's to have a conversation and I kind of feel that it's like anything, it's like equality, diversity, salaries, all these difficult subjects.

We're not saying it's easy to manage and we're quite realistic the current constraints, but if you have to start pushing for it somewhere, For it to change, right?

Jason Boyle: I think so. And I think the, if you see the results of some of the polls, like one that's just closed the architects were saying the biggest reason it's 60, I think it's 60% or 61% said that A was because [00:39:00] people don't know what architects do.

So if they don't know what they do, how, how can you demonstrate value, you know, how can you, how can you, and you know, it's how, how do we make architects or the general public and clients aware of all of the things that architects do? Yes, we design, but we're, we used to be called master builders.

Back, you know, many, many hundreds of years ago, that's where the name architect comes from the master builder. You know, we build things. We don't just design something that stays on the computer. It's, it's something we create environments and you know, it's a skilled profession.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I would say is that there's a really good example that one of my directors said.

So on the flip side is that. One of the directors of architecture worked on the fantastic guy. And so he had a friend that was paying for a hundred thousand and at the time he was an associate So what salary is likely in london to be half that right? [00:40:00] Maybe a bit more And I remember he said on one hand his friend earns loads of money but his friend who was a lawyer was like i'm so jealous of you and he was like why and he's like You get to design buildings all day.

I'm, I'm in, I'm, I'm, I'm new deep in Excel all the time. And you actually making a difference. And I think there's a truth to that as in, there's something about architecture. We say all this, but the glimmer of hope is that I, where I enjoyed working in industry is that I'm really proud that I worked on one or two buildings.

And you literally, whenever I passed. Whoever I'm with, I will literally be bored of the death of five minutes. Talk about what I was doing on it, but I was incredibly proud of doing that. And there is something about, you can actually in real life point to something and say, I built that, which I do think.

There is not a price tag you can put on that and, and I just saying that in terms of recruitment, I do enjoy helping people in their career and they go and do stuff and I get a bit of [00:41:00] that thing and you can get that buzz in mentoring as well. You've helped someone and they do it for themselves. You're incredibly proud.

But one of the trade offs in terms of my role now is that, and that's why I did the architecture social, because when you're an architect on the frontline, you are making a difference and it's not all about money. So I think. That's one of the trade offs. I just think that the interesting thing that we talk about is obviously if you can push up on the salary, then you can improve quality of life and you can kind of enjoy these things, but you're always going to have that difficult balance.

Yes, you know,

Jason Boyle: you are, you are. And I think you're right. Touching back onto the mentoring side of things, it, the greatest joy is actually seeing someone you started with and then seeing them kind of turn. Into this fantastic, successful person, you know, and that that's, that's almost like creating a piece of architecture.

You know, you actually, you, you designing something and you're seeing it built and then you get the [00:42:00] feedback from the clients who are actually using the building. It's just like that with, you know, watching someone grow. And it's a similar thing. I think you know, buildings and people it's, it's the same kind of process.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And I suppose what I found really interesting from the podcast you did about mentoring, and there's a certain there's a certain quality that I've seen as well, that in terms of mentoring, you can't mentor everyone per se, but then what, what's interesting is that There's certain qualities that people to go out there and do something because I, in life, I always find that you, you have people that talk about an idea and then there's people that do the idea.

And I always find that ideas, ironically, I think they're only as good as your ability to execute them. And I'm not saying you need to do it perfectly, but to have an idea and then go, I'm going to go out [00:43:00] there and whether you succeed or not. I think the whole half of it is failing, right? The amount of failures I've done, quote unquote, like the architecture recruitment business I set up at the time, I left Bespoke Careers, big company, and I big naively went, we're going to do it.

And it was such a culture shock, but there's nothing like. Being there and doing it to learn. And I do think that it's a certain mindset that that really works. That not everyone can do that, but I do think in someone's ability to learn, they have to be open minded. So they have to be open to you suggesting, maybe asking questions, which.

Can feel a little bit probing at times to make them think and all this stuff. But it requires a certain personality, doesn't it? To be a mentored and then be to, to go out and do things. But what, I mean, what's your kind of thoughts on the frontline on that subject?

Jason Boyle: Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's an American thing [00:44:00] that they, they very much buy into that.

The fact that you go out there, you try something and if you fail, you know, you just, it's just learning experience. Where I think over here, we love to bash people who fail and, and push them down. And it's, it's I think it is changing. I think that's why mentoring has definitely risen in the last probably five years.

You know, people understand the benefits of actually having someone get, guide them and get them there and get them there faster. You know, there's got to be a benefit of having a mentor. You know, otherwise why, why use one? It's it's imparting that experience onto someone and giving them all the little cheats The little habits the little stacking of habits that works well that you've learned And yeah, it's I think, I think that's that's critically where it lies.

We, it, we, we should go out there and turn the idea into take it, take an action. And I [00:45:00] think what I hope is I'm always interested in, in working with people like that and holding them to account. So I'm not, it doesn't work if people are just talking about doing something and I don't see them actually carrying that out.

I can't work with them. You know, you've got to, you've got to put your money where your mouth is and just go and do it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And I'm touching upon that as well because I've learned a few things from the architecture social as well. So even when I was first doing things, Jason, in my spare time, I would try to do as much one on ones as possible.

And what I learned is that it was an inefficient. and use of my time, because what it is is one to one is highly valuable for that person, but because I had limited amount of time, then that person would go off and then someone would ask the same question. And so it's a very different model to what you do.

So where I tried to in terms of structuring what I do, and I'm going to go back to work full time next week, which means that I've even got less [00:46:00] time during the day because I have to honor the time. That I work employed in that. But what I've done in terms of the architectural social before, which is a little bit different from what you do, is that I try to get a subject that I felt was appropriate.

So maybe talking about CVS for an hour on the podcast or portfolio and go into it. So it was more of general guide to try and get people infused and, and. Learn and kind of do certain things and what I've learned as well is I'm happy working full time in my job, but to do the one on one, which you do as well, I do think it requires the commitment from both people and where I'm going with this as well, because mentoring, you do charge a fee for that.

There is a you, you are doing it, but I think that A, establishing a fee with someone means they're serious about change. And what I think is really important, where I'm going with this here is that the point is when [00:47:00] you take someone on boards and you, in terms of mentorship, you establish a, perhaps it's like a fee per man for, there's a commitment.

The point is you then have to deliver on it and you can then do the ones on ones, which I can't afford to do right now. And that's the difference, isn't it? It's very bespoke.

Jason Boyle: Absolutely. And I think, I think what I find again from, you know, you, you shout in here, you know, you'll find people have a gym membership.

So they, they, they will pay 50, 60 pounds a month for a gym membership and for their body, you know, and to train and get fit, but they won't pay someone to work on their mindset and help them through their career. And the career is where they, they earn the money to pay for the gym. And you know, if you can, you know, if, if you can raise some ones generally, you know, when I'm working with someone, their salary and their, their income will, will go up.

So it kind of pays for [00:48:00] itself. So I just don't, I just don't, I always have that problem when you speak to someone and this is how much it is. And then it's like, ah, I can't afford it. And then you go, but you can afford to go to the gym. You can afford to go to the pub, able to go to the pub, you know, so it's just about, it's about targeting exactly what you want out of life.

You know, if you want to make that change, mentoring and a one to one coming back to your point is, is, is a perfect way to do it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree with that because I think as well I always it's, it's like the mental health aspect, but you can get really good benefits from seeing a therapist. And what you're talking about is that you're a career coach and it's a bit like what I do in a different way.

And in recruitment, I can say that I have a particular job. I can, and you were applying for it for whatever reason, Jason. I've got the time to mentor you and go through it. But what people have to realize is that while a recruitment consultant can offer value in certain [00:49:00] situations, they're effectively hired by the client.

What I like about the mentoring model is that you're saying, I, my sole agenda is to help you. Okay, you're, you're, you're paying for my time, but that means I can give you my time. I will listen. I will help. And then the bit that I always find interesting is that actually, if it's not working out, I could be like, Jason, I would one month in, it's not quite the right fit.

Shake hands. Move on. You're not trying to swindle it. He was just saying, great, let's go for

Jason Boyle: it. And it often doesn't work with me. So I know instantly, probably within the first session that I can't work with someone. And I think, I think I'd like to reach this out to, you know, firms. So firms will have this thing where they call it, they call it mentoring.

And essentially it's just, it's just looking after the people you'll get a superior in a firm who will be looking after your career in that firm. But they're just looking after you [00:50:00] in order to obviously grow within the profession and learn information, but it's just, it's about obviously their business.

So it's, so if you're the individual being mentored by someone, the best mentoring you can get is outside of that organization. And that's where I can come in and help because I'm completely independent and I'm looking after that individual.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Oh yeah. And I think, well, actually they do compliment each other because I do think that it's good an employer has mentoring, but the distinction that I think you, you make a good point on is that.

That is for everything to work within that architectural practice way. And what you're talking about is a career consultant potentially for life, as in you're not, your allegiance is not to a company, your allegiance is for the best interest in the person. So I think that's where it can be a really interesting model.

And I think that. I would be interested in taking all of that. It's like, look, if Reba's got a course online, then great. And it's like with, with, with [00:51:00] my, the stuff that I, I put out, it's more because this is my general opinion on a CV or a portfolio. And what I talked about is how I would generally, and again, it's my opinion piece, but I think it works.

Mine is more like the online Steve Drew, Architects for Social, my thoughts on it. This is kind of. My vision of how to go about it and they have principles I believe in, but I'll tell you a really good example on that is that I'll have a lot of really good positive comments about it and I really appreciate if anyone listens to it and then I'll turn around and I'll go, great.

So you listen to the episode where I said, send out your CV to lots of places and to challenge yourself. I went, that was brilliant. And I go. All right, cool. How many CVs did you send out today? Four. And I'm like, I said, I said more than that. I said, let's be volume. And that's what I think is special about the mentoring is that there's an element of accountability and that's, yeah.

And it's not judgment. You're not looking down on [00:52:00] someone and going, it's not that it's more about. Come on, I know you can do more. Can we push to six? Can we push to eight? You've done 12 today, that's an increase from four yesterday. That's awesome, that's sweet. And I think that's, and that's where I see that what you do

Jason Boyle: is successful.

Absolutely, and what people probably don't really understand is, is very successful people generally. It's obviously about working smarter not harder. I always preach this it's it's just those little adjustments and those little habits and then repeating them daily So it becomes like a mantra. So it becomes like washing your face on a morning.

You do these things instinctively. And when you get to that point, then you will, you, you, you'll see your life transform. And that's what it's, it's, it's definitely, it started in America, but it's, it's been written about so many times, you know, from the seventies, and it's still relevant today. But just people are not aware of it.[00:53:00]

And you know, having someone to hold you to account on a monthly basis, for example, so it's not too, too expensive, I think is, is, is, is fantastic. And it is, I've proven it works. It just does.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree with that as well. And that's the point. You can try it out. And as well talk about it before. So I think, I mean, this.

To me, it's felt like a really good overview. And what I would say is in case anyone's not, in case you're not already one of the 28, 000 connected to Jason already, where can we find you? Any Articial Social listeners, you're on the Articial Social, which is awesome. You're also on LinkedIn. Where, how, how can people get a hold of you and say

Jason Boyle: hello?

Yeah, definitely. LinkedIn. But getting, I've only got 2000 people left before I can, I can also put my. Should I say my email on the, on here? I don't particularly care, but yeah, you, you can get me on an email. It's jason. architect101 at gmail. com and watch out [00:54:00] for the spam. So you can connect with that way, but definitely LinkedIn, because I think you'll, you'll see, I do push out a lot.

I think it's quite interesting content out there and I'm open to hearing if you want mentoring and hear it, you know, if you want to know more about that, I'd be absolutely fantastic, you know, to have a chat.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. Look, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've really enjoyed this chat. Maybe what we can do is talk down the line.

We'll get a few more polls in. We'll, we'll, we'll see where we're at. Maybe there's a few and perhaps you could we can go into a little bit more about what you do in terms of nuclear architecture as well. I really enjoyed this and while I will put the link and to your LinkedIn and we can take it from there.

Thank you so much, Jason. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. All [00:55:00] right.