Martin Andrews (Principal Lecturer, Academic Lead and Architect at the University of Portsmouth)

0009 - Martin Andrews and Stephen Drew's open discussion on how to get a job in Architecture
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, so I'm Stephen Drew and we're joined here by Martin Andrews and so Martin and I have been chatting over the last few days talking a little bit about how students get a job at the moment in the current market, so part ones and part twos, and just for anyone that hasn't met you or seen you online Martin, would you like to maybe say one or two little Bits about who you are and what you do.

Martin Andrews: Yep. Sure. I'm a registered architect I'm also a principal lecturer at the University of Portsmouth Within the Portsmouth School of Architecture and at the moment, I'm academic lead for admissions and recruitment so my focus is very Heavy towards students at undergraduate, postgraduate and also students who are post 16.

Okay. So I do a lot of workshops and events with school students and school pupils. And yeah, I've been at the University [00:01:00] for of Portsmouth for a significantly long period of time now. So yeah, I'm looking forward to our chat today.

Stephen Drew: Oh, amazing. And so basically you worked in industry for a few years and now you teach and you see the other side of the coin.

So it's a little bit like me, I worked in industry as well and now I work in recruitment. So it's definitely, it's interesting seeing almost the few sides of the coin. And What got us talking and how we met was dissecting and going through what is the best way or what is the most appropriate way or how would you In this current situation, there's a part one or a part two, go about getting a job.

And everyone has a different opinion, and there's, I don't think there is a step by step guide per se, but what I've seen over the years is certain techniques from stuff that I've done personally, and stuff that I've seen students do, which gives a higher chance of getting a job. [00:02:00] And that's what I'm really interested in flashing out.

So In almost giving the advice that I never got at the time, the do's and don'ts and what works and what doesn't. But what's, what do you notice at the moment that works for students who get a job? And maybe what do you see things that some people do that almost hinder the process or slow it down for them?

Martin Andrews: Okay, so interesting. So I come at this with a multitude of different angles and perspectives because when I worked in practice I had Part 1s and Part 2s sending me letters, and CVs, letters of application, expressions of interest. When I ran my own practice, I got it as a practitioner, as the person of, I was in charge of who's going to be sat with me in this office.

I now look at it from the perspective of maybe academics want to come and work within the Portsmouth School of Architecture. So I see that, [00:03:00] but I also see, our students in their second year of studies at undergraduate, hoping to go out into placement and preparing for job applications. And obviously I see my part ones and my part twos at the end of their undergrad and post grad preparing as well.

So I've been exposed to this from a multitude of different angles. And I think There's a lot of anxiety out there always, especially if they're part one or the BA2 level, where they've never really done this before for maybe the students have gone out and they've worked part time jobs maybe in the retail sector or food sector or something like that.

And that's a slightly different approach. So the thing that you can, and you may back this up, there's a difference between a CV for someone applying to an architectural practice or within the design industry [00:04:00] and someone that's applying for a job with an accountant or with a lawyer. So the biggest thing that we always tell our students is, look, you're in the visual industries, you're in the creative industries, CV responds to that.

So the CV can't just be a word doc. No. not graphically presented. It has to be eye catching. Now, you can do that on a number of different levels. So you can have the word doc, which is just the same type font through. Okay. You can have something that's a bit more polished, simple type font.

Maybe a couple of images. We'll talk about personal photographs on CVs later.

Stephen Drew: Okay. All right.

Martin Andrews: That's something that's really odd. I was never on my

Stephen Drew: CV and portfolio. I don't think no one wants to see my Welsh beards, it wouldn't do well.

Martin Andrews: So it's an interesting talking point because it always gets raised.

Okay. And Then you can go the full, and you, we get some CVs [00:05:00] that are amazing pieces of origami, that are given to you and they unfold and that's just this amazing thing. Not, you don't have to do that, and that takes a lot of time to do, but actually you need to think, the first one is think really carefully about Your CV.

Secondly, think very carefully about what is going into your portfolio, because you need a digital portfolio. You just do. Whether it's the thing that you print off and you put in a portfolio case and you walk into an interview if you're lucky enough to get a spot, or you walk in with your laptop and you're able to open it, or it's something you send a prospective employer that's.

the best work that you've done recently. Now you and I talked about file sizes, didn't we? Getting into the detail of this. Okay. So Stephen, what should all CVs and portfolios be able to do when you click on them?

Stephen Drew: Open. Easily. Oh, you [00:06:00] should be able to read them. Yeah. You shouldn't have any problems.

Yeah. And then, and I think you've hit the nail on the head here 'cause it's actually, I think you've unpacked it really well and it the catch is that we're all different as designers. So there is no one way on a CBM portfolio, but you are right compared to a traditional. format that the employer almost needs to get a sense of your design and your taste, but then also you need to in my opinion, tick the practical boxes.

So you as a practice manager, you would be using AutoCAD and maybe you've got a planning submission and actually You want to see that someone can do that, as well as then, from that, have a little taste of their design. But where I find it really interesting is that I loved it when we were chatting about, and I agree, it's brilliant having an origami portfolio.

And I, as someone in my, I remember in my studio, one of the, one of the, one of the girls who was amazing, bringing in this handmade, hand woven [00:07:00] portfolio book. And I remember thinking, oh man. That I could never do that. What was interesting, though, is that I actually got a job before her and it was purely because of the way I was going about the job search and at the time I think that she could only do a few versions of that portfolio because she had to make a lot of them where at the time I sent out a clean CV with a cover and letter and a portfolio of six to seven pages where I talked about what software I use and I showcased my work and I sent it out to a lot of architectural practices.

So we could argue that her portfolio was presented better and was more beautiful. in terms of it was actually almost like an object, a feature. If an architectural practice got it through the post, it's the kind of thing you would take home [00:08:00] to your partner and enjoy. And it would be a feature of a copy book, but I actually got more coverage out and I sent it out to more employers and I had more exposure.

Martin Andrews: Yeah. That's interesting. We've thinking about the idea about how do you gather together a body of creative work and send it to someone to, to pique their interest. So only this year, we've decided that we can record sketchbooks in a slightly different way. Okay. So sketchbooks are beautiful things, but they're very difficult to replicate because you don't really want to copy them, do you?

Yeah. Because. There's something about the texture of sketchbooks that are lovely. Yeah. So we've been going through this for a couple of years now. Last year, we got some guys to photograph the pages of the portfolio. But again, that becomes quite a weighty document, especially if you're trying to send it to someone.

So do you know what we did this year? We filmed it. [00:09:00] We filmed the portfolio of the sketchbook. Someone turning over the pages really nicely. That compressed down to a really small file. That's really cool. And that student, if they wanted to, can now send it off to designers and practitioners to look at their work.

And it is just a really nice way to do it. And because it's, High quality film on a tripod and the camera is really good quality Then actually the person that opens that small movie file is able to get a real feeling about the quality of that student And so I think there are ways to do this in a clever way That at least gets your foot in the door and I think that's the important thing is to be memorable for the right reasons.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Okay.

Martin Andrews: So yeah, I think there's ways you Okay, so just responding to you. You said there was that fantastic student that produced this wonderful woven What I would probably do now is I [00:10:00] would maybe put a small video together that shows this portfolio being gone through And I would probably send that out as a package to employers, but if I was lucky enough to get a job, I would take that physical portfolio with me.

And I would go through it. So I think there's that thing where you just have to think of it in a slightly different way. It was a real moment for me and my colleagues when we realized that as long as we had someone that was careful turning over the pages of this thing, it'll be alright. It'll work really well.

So I think, yeah, just think. In a slightly different way about how you present your own work. So yeah, I've got a question for you.

Stephen Drew: Go on. I love it. We're flipping this around. You are interviewing me now. Are we brilliant? I love it. Do it. Come on.

Martin Andrews: You can say whatever you want, Martin. It's fine.

Okay. All right. I have a tendency to to start swearing spontaneously. So I try and stop that. . So there's always a debate. Doesn't matter which cohort I'm. working with in undergrad or postgrad. Okay. [00:11:00] If you look at a lot of CVs that come from America or the United States, there will always be, I think I, this is what I've seen from the research that I've done, which might be limited, but it's definitely something that gets discussed a lot.

You'll find that the person who puts the CV or the portfolio together will include a picture of themselves. On the CV. Yeah. Okay. Now staff that I've spoken to or colleagues that I've spoken to are divided. Okay. Some say absolutely not. You should not put your picture on a CV. Yeah. I have other colleagues who have done similar research to me and found that everyone else in the sector is doing it.

So why shouldn't you do it as a student applying to a job? And there are lots of arguments around this, but from, you're at the you're at the pointy end of this.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Martin Andrews: You deal with this on a daily basis. It's your job. [00:12:00] What's your view? What do you think?

Stephen Drew: It's, okay, I think generally the work should always speak for itself, first and foremost.

There is something about the human psychology That if you see the person, it's a bit like us on video now, there's a level where you feel like, the person a bit more now where it comes a bit complicated is that you can also people have unconscious biases, right? So the thing is, people can make assumptions based upon that image, which might be completely not true, or they could actually almost detract from you.

Get in the job. And then that's the danger. And I generally say not to do it. I've never done it myself. At the same time, where I've seen it be successful, if it's maybe a picture which isn't almost like a passport painted picture, maybe it's you. Photography, and [00:13:00] it's not the focus. It really shouldn't be the focus.

Personally, I don't think you need it. The only time I've seen it be more closer to a prerequisite is in a client facing role, such as a receptionist or front of house. Because then the person can assimilate. What they would who they would be meeting at the desk and then they can visualize you working there.

That's the only time that I've seen it become a little bit more relevant, but really in terms of part one and part two, the work should speak for itself. And so the danger is with a photo, you can get hung up on it. I would generally not put it in.

Martin Andrews: It's interesting I went for the job role that I'm currently doing at the moment.

About a year ago I put my hat in the ring, went for the academic lead for admissions and recruitment, and I was sat there thinking, I need to do a CV. So I chose to put a [00:14:00] photograph of me into the CV. Now the CV wasn't like this, the photograph wasn't, a stylized image, anything like that.

So you've got to think the role was admissions and recruitment. Okay. So that's working with primary schools, secondary schools, colleges of further education. That's, so the photographs I included on each of the pages of the CV, CV was about three pages long, was me. working with pupils and students of different ages.

So I was sensitive to the way I portrayed the pupils and the students in the image. Their identities weren't revealed. Okay. So it was pictures of them working at a table and normally the back of the head, but you could see that I was in a, I was comfortably in a position of working in a group with these people.

So the focus wasn't on my ugly mug. The focus was instead on the fact that I was saying, look, if you appoint me to [00:15:00] do this role, look, I do this role and here's photographic evidence. So I think you're absolutely right. I think. If you do include them, and many people don't, you need to make sure that they're relevant.

Now, the other thing that makes an architecture or interior architecture and design CV different is the fact that we always encourage, I encourage, our students to put their own work into the CV. Really high quality edited images of an interior that they've produced, or the exterior of a building in an urban complex, something like that.

And I think you're absolutely right, let the work speak for itself, but occasionally, if you're confident enough, I think the idea of putting something in that hints at who you are, is acceptable in some instances.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and I think what's interesting, we talked about a little bit about what goes into it.

Where I find it more interesting though, is that in my position, I'm very reluctant to comment on a [00:16:00] student's design work once it's gone into a CV. And where I'm sometimes astonished, and where I've done it myself, is that once it's more about mistakes that people do that lack of communication, which then actually stops them from getting the job.

So I'm amazed sometimes, for instance, in a CV, if you, if someone's done technical drawings, they're not in there. And if they've used a certain set of software, They are not in there as well, and sometimes I've seen examples where I can speak to someone on the phone and they have actually done an internship in an architecture practice and that's not got on the CV and what's been on the focus on the CV is the last academic project which is a natural feeling, because if I've just done one year and I've worked in in, in your studio, and we, I worked really hard and I got a first.

I'm going to feel naturally proud of that. And it should go on there, and that should be demonstrated. Where I where I get surprised though is that all this [00:17:00] stuff before, the internship before, doing that project and the summer job where they were client facing, or, speaking to people and the, all the other bits and bobs that they've learned, the physical model and the, or maybe the Revit skills and.

Participating in a BIM talk group gets missed out. And that's the stuff that I feel can actually stop you from getting the job. Because it's not just about how excellent your design is. It's about how you will fit into an office. So when you had a practice, Martin, there's the, there's that level of, you want a good designer.

You also need to know that they're going to solve a problem in the studio. And then that's the bit that I, when I speak to. People on the phone, when I speak to them now, I'm always amazed that still happens.

Martin Andrews: It's about enriching your CV, isn't it? To say, Yes, absolutely, I've got the [00:18:00] education, that means that I can go on the route to qualify as an architect, or I can do my degree and I can come out as an interior architect.

And I also do these things, and I've done these things, and I've worked with volunteer groups, and I've played football for Manchester United juniors, and I, it's that stuff that I go, ooh, that's really interesting. Yeah. And in terms of conversation pieces, the argument is that you might have a very good student, top quality student, who is very good on their own, is very good academically, but maybe you don't think that their personality would fit into the office.

However, you might interview someone that is, maybe doesn't have the same, who hasn't achieved the same grades, but that has gone out and worked in other practices has interacted with [00:19:00] international design competitions, have done volunteer, and you think, wow, that's the stuff that you think it, yes, it is about grades and achievement of marks and things.

But as you said, if you're thinking in a practice setting, when then it when it's more than just a sold Practitioner or sole trader. There's actually other people there. Small, medium, large size practices. You want to make sure that person has a character and can fit into the office.

Stephen Drew: Yes, I agree.

And that's the thing, the grades show what you've done and what you've accomplished. In my opinion though, the employer wants to know, can you do the job and can you get along together? And can you solve that problem? If you have, for instance, have your own practice, Martin, you've got a residential scheme.

You need to know that you can talk to someone on the level. They're going to help you as a human being. They're not going to crash the BIM model. And that's the immediate problem. And then you'd like to know that you can build a map based upon their design skills. But it's actually the core problem.

That's what you're looking to solve. [00:20:00] And that's what you're looking to hire. And I just love your, I think where you hit the nail on the head is that And what I've learned is that in an interview, it doesn't matter if you've got a first or anything like that. If you can't convey who you are as a person, and you can't speak to someone and communicate who you are on a human level, then the reality is you won't make that connection.

Because one of the things that I noticed is, even as human beings, is that what we do is we all make decisions based upon emotion, backed by fact. So after an interview, a positive interview, If, for instance, I've met someone that's really good, even I do it, I naturally go, he was amazing or she was amazing.

She came in with this energy and I just was blown away. The design work was good. And then at the end you go, oh yeah, and she had good grades and I'm pretty sure she can do Revit. It was the personality that got you there and that's the thing. And so for me, when it, when I bring it back to what we talked about at [00:21:00] the start, the CV and portfolio is the window.

to get their attention. And to me, it's all about the steps as in, though, in my head, the whole objective, the mission of the CV and the sample portfolio is to get you that interview and to get you on that one to one, like we're talking now, so that you can have a conversation. And that's where I think it is.

It really is a conversation. Of course, you should rehearse a few questions in your head so that you feel you covered the points, but it's not a script. And you have to freestyle based upon the conversation and that should be the goal. And and that's why I bring it back even again, you've got the CV and portfolio, but it's like how you go about there in the real world and calling up companies and sending CVs, the more you do, then the more, and the more practical stuff you do, the more applications you send, the more calls you make as a human level, the more chances [00:22:00] we get of these, you.

Real conversations, and that's what's going to get you

Martin Andrews: the job. Absolutely. I'll do

Stephen Drew: There you go, that's a little eureka moment, wasn't it?

Martin Andrews: Yeah, that's right. I'm going to talk about three things, so remind me, right? Okay, there's three things. So I recently went for an internal position at the university.

Yeah. About a month ago, and the ask was, Please can you submit a CV and an expression of interest? Okay. Okay. Yeah, I can do that. Not a problem at all. So the expression of it in CV is easy because I obviously tried to sort that out when I got the role that I'm in at the moment. So I thought, okay, expression of interest.

Normally expressions of interest are really short, but I was responding to every point in the application. So it turned into this beast, this absolute beast. Four and a half thousand words, right? Yeah, I'm thinking well, they didn't cap it Sometimes I've done these jobs and they've said or these job applications.

They've said one a four [00:23:00] so I didn't cap it So I'm like, okay. I'm bending the rules a bit. I am responding. I've gone through. Okay, however Who's gonna read this unless their interest is peaked? Do you know what I decided to do? No, I did a short video less than two minutes long about Me and some of the things that I could offer at this new position if I were appointed.

And I think that thing of being able to go I've written this really developed thing, which if they're interested by my CV in the short film, they can go and have a look more in depth. But actually it's about capturing and saying I'm a nice person, I'm not a robot, and I've got a bit of experience, and I wonder how many other people who applied for that position submitted a video.

You've got to think, in this world [00:24:00] that we live in, it was an academic job, in this world that we live in we've gone teaching virtual learning environments, okay? So this job that I was going for had bits of that in it. Okay, so by doing this short video about me and saying that I can use, zoom and cameras and things I'm saying I'm quite comfortable in front of the camera and I can make these short videos So it's and that's you could say the similar thing about a CV or a portfolio Or just to grab the attention.

So that's first thing second thing Coming back to what we were talking about, enriching the portfolio or enriching the CV. Okay. My part one experience was really interesting because obviously I went out post 91, 92 recession. It was 1997. It was still very difficult in the construction industry and in architectural practice to get a job.

So I applied, I went for the quantity over quality to start with. Okay. So I just, I wasn't [00:25:00] desperate, but I knew I wanted to be in a particular area, so I mail shot everyone, but changed my letter of application to be personal to that practice. Okay, so I did lots and lots. It was still very difficult.

However, I got some interviews, and there's one particular interview that I got, and I swear that I got the job, because we started talking about sport and football. So yes, I had a very nice CV. It was the size of a bus. Back then, it was when you had the A1 portfolios that you walked around. Oh

Stephen Drew: no, not anymore, right?

Martin Andrews: That's in the past. That's it, but yeah, do your backing when you're carrying those around. I, it was fine and we were going through the pages, me and the owner of the business and we're looking through it and it was great. And then he said, I think he said ow when he was turning one of the pages and I said, are you alright?

And he said, I tweaked my back playing football last night. And I said, oh, that's interesting. He said, yeah, do you play football? And then that was it. Yeah, the door was open and I'm sure [00:26:00] it wasn't just because I had a sporting pedigree, but I think it really helped because then the interview, the atmosphere changed, it became so much more friendly, we were able to talk about many things outside of the portfolio, not just about football and sport and yeah, That was a really good, opportunity for me to talk a bit more about myself.

The second sort of part two interview was a particular character, very senior within a well-known local authority architectural practice. . Invited me in, there was his. Assistant, someone from HR and myself. So walked in a three portfolio this time 'cause we've moved on a few years, right? A three, I go through the portfolio.

I know my script, I know about the practice. I know a lot about this particular individual as well. And it was dreadful. Steven ,

Stephen Drew: I remember

Martin Andrews: It was a [00:27:00] proper, we are just gonna disagree on everything. I'm sorry, we just are. Back then, maybe I was a bit more opinionated but, it was like, oh dear.

The HR person finished the interview after about an hour and said, Thank you very much. We'll be in touch soon. The assistant says, I'll show you down to reception. I'll show you, just show you out the building. So we're walking down the fire escapes there. And I said, I'm really sorry. That was awful.

I normally interview really well. That was probably the worst interview in my life. And she said no, you've got the job. And I said, what? And she said, he really liked you. He liked that you fought back. And I was like, okay. I've now gone into interviews since that part two experience thinking it's all right as long as you have a good reason to be able to put your point of view across.

Yeah. Whereas prior to that, I always thought just sit down and show your portfolio and just say [00:28:00] yes to everything.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. But

Martin Andrews: it wasn't. Learning experience.

Stephen Drew: I think you bit the nail on the head. For me, I always say the interview is just as much for you as it is for them. And it's very hard to remember that because the thing is, when you're going to an interview, you have to think about whether you want to work there as well.

And it can be so easy to get enamored by the fact that there's a possible job there, that you're almost, Instantly, as you say it in this yes mode, when you can be respectful, like you said, and thankful for the interview, and still challenge certain things. And when I say challenge, it's not about being aggressive or standoffish, not on about that.

What we're on about is a professional or a personal Disagreement or opinion piece, I personally am more interested in this version of sustainability for this and that. Or for instance, in Revit, I model things in a particular [00:29:00] way. I understand why you've modeled it in this way because of time constraints.

Perhaps in the next project, what I would recommend is that you check these resources and then suddenly you're offering value, insight, and you're showing how employable you are. Whereas, you're right, it wears. A yes person isn't necessarily all the right thing. And it's true that Will, who was actually does a lot of the podcasts with me on my team, when I in McDonald and Company for graduates, sometimes what we do is we have five to 10 people come in at the same time, which isn't the case in architecture.

He was the only person that disagreed with me and fought the point. And he was the one I remembered. And he was the one I brought back for interview. And it was purely because. He challenged me on something that, when I said, I didn't necessarily agree with myself. But what it was a conversation piece.

And it was on that basis, which I was like, This is someone that when I work with that will respectfully tell me if he disagrees which is a [00:30:00] power in itself.

Martin Andrews: Definitely. And I think again, we're talking about photographs on CVs per profile photographs. It's that it's the same thing with this.

It's absolutely fine to have your own opinion and it's okay. As long as. You're respectful and it's about making the judgment. If you're really rude and you started swearing, you started throwing your portfolio across the room and being a bit arrogant, that's not right in any circumstance.

That's not right. But to actually say, what that's a really interesting point. Thank you very much. However, I chose to do it this way because, and there's, so a few years ago, he's now got his own architectural practice in Winchester. He's Great guy. He was a mature student coming through Portsmouth Uni when I taught him in architecture.

And I just remember being blown away because I was probably in my, I think I was in my early 30s, so I was quite new to part time teaching, but I also ran my own practice and he disagreed with the things that I was saying. And I remember [00:31:00] thinking, wow this is amazing because, okay. And I took it on as a challenge.

The funny thing is I later employed him as an assistant within the practice and it was brilliant because he was such an asset. He was deeply reflective. As well as questioning in the right way. And I, and he was funny. He was so funny that actually that combination made me think, do you know what? Outside the academic sphere, I think I could quite happily work with you.

And like I said, he's now got a brilliant practice, very contemporary architectural practice in Winchester. So it's good. It's, I couldn't, I've obviously taught hundreds and hundreds of students over the years. I've probably got a nice, story about the majority of them, but not all of them.

Stephen Drew: And it's yeah, and

Martin Andrews: It's the, it's the snippets, those stories that stay with you. And it's that thing about being memorable. I think that's really important.

Stephen Drew: But what I liked, and while you were talking about the [00:32:00] photo, and what I liked about when you were talking about the video as well, and it links back to the phone, because for me in the interview, it's the magic of talking.

It's like even this, we're on the chat now, and who knows where it goes, and along the way you make certain discoveries, and things happen, but the thing is with a photo, it's static. I don't think it offers anything. Whereas, what you were talking about with video before, there's so much more personality that comes across from it.

Tone, emotion, excitement, joy, and all that stuff comes across. Whereas, in a picture, It can be interpreted one way. And so to me, a picture is more like a text. And so it's the whole thing of sometimes when you get a text and you're like, is he being sarcastic or, and then it can be so misinterpreted. And I think that is the danger with a photo.

So it can work and sometimes it cannot. And I think with a video and it's and that's why even in my role. That's why speaking on the phone [00:33:00] helps so much more, because people get a sense of excitement or engagement. And it goes back to when we talked about before, when you send a CV, if you actually phone as well, suddenly what you visualize, the employer starts visualizing you as a person, and not necessarily just a CV commodity.

It's not just the CV. The CV comes from the person. And the person who rang up is someone that can have a conversation and is someone that then becomes more tangibly real. That you then get an interview, because you slowly kept going, you're becoming more and more realistic.

Martin Andrews: Yeah I completely agree. So I've had Lots and lots of students over the years who have said, I've sent out so many CVs, letters of application, portfolios, but I've just not had a response. Oh, that's a real shame. Can you tell me your process? Yep, I emailed them and then that's it and I'm like, okay, [00:34:00] but have you phoned them?

No, okay. So what I'm finding on reflection over the years that not everyone who applies for jobs phones To follow up or like you said, you know We had a conversation earlier actually goes down to the practice if their local knocks on the door and says hello I'm Brian and I wondered if you got my CV yet and it makes such a difference because if you can find, obviously there's some practices out there who might have a central HR department that might not reveal their telephone number, but if you do a bit of research, you can probably find out how to contact them.

So I think that the big takeaway that I have to my students is that, or that I say to my students is, Just follow up. You've got nothing to lose. You don't have to have a big patter, big spiel rehearsed, because the likelihood is you'll get through to someone in the office who picks up the phone and says, how can I help?

And your question is, [00:35:00] I recently applied for a job application within your practice. My name is X and I wonder if you could give me an update. That's it. That's enough to just open the door for a conversation. You might get put onto a director. You might get put onto a project architect. You might just talk to the practice administrator.

It doesn't really matter. You're getting yourself known. And I think that's where a lot of the students that I've worked with miss a trick. It's all of this, actually, if you reflect on what we're talking about, it all comes back to being memorable for the right reasons.

Stephen Drew: And I think going out there and getting and the other thing is, it's about, if there's no job ad, you should still send an application.

You can't wait for a job application, or you can't wait for the employer to give you a job. to come back. You have to, in a nice way, and it goes back to that thing of what we're talking in interviews, like the challenging thing, in a nice way, what you're doing is you're politely re engaging with the company.

And they might go, you know what, we were just going to put an add on. Let me get your [00:36:00] application out. I'll give it to the director, Jeff, now. And suddenly, through you ringing, you've created yourself an Opportunity. And you've done it because you've, the reason you've got that is because you've done something which people typically don't do.

And in life, I think that kind of attitude and that go getter is who people want in their companies. And because it's taken initiative. And I think that if you're waiting for a part one role to Dezeen, then when you send that application off, it will be with 300 people. But if you go out and you find every architecture practice close to you and slowly build it out and send CVs, you're creating opportunities which were off the guard, off the beaten track and therefore are more likely to be hidden gems or you're more likely to get the attention.

I I,

Martin Andrews: again, I completely agree. My I've talked about the interview for my part two, which was. [00:37:00] Interesting and challenging at the same time, but I finished my, it was back then it was the Diploma in Architecture. Now it's obviously the MArch. I finished my Diploma and I knew that I wanted to work for that practice.

But I didn't want to go out into the industry at the same time as all the other architecture graduates. I just thought that was madness. And I thought in my mind why don't I delay it a bit? I think February would be quite good because I think there's probably going to be an upswing. So this was a few years later.

So this was in the early noughties. I think there's going to be an upswing and they'll be taking people on. What can I do? So they were playing around with the idea of a master's course and an M Arch, a Master of Architecture at Portsmouth. And I was told that it was a year long and that would I like to be the first person to do DM Arch and it was it was I could have done a design project.

I could have done a written piece I chose to do a written piece in the end and I thought this is really good because if I [00:38:00] finish in the February if I finish early then I'm back. I'm there I'm in practice and all the staff said to me you'll never do it. You'll never do it And you never do it in six months.

It would be a year. Anyway, I did it in six months. Yeah, well done finish Thank you finish the masters and I was able to go out at a time when most Architectural practices May have been looking for part twos But probably thought there was a bit of a drought because most part twos would have been finishing their postgraduate studies and I think that's partly why because the practice that I went to is very well known and that summer when they had released their part one and part two Jobs, there were hundreds and hundreds of people that were applying for it because it's such a popular practice So when I applied in the February or probably the January the February it wasn't as popular and the numbers had come right down so I'd gained a Another postgraduate qualification, which is advantageous to me.

I've done a bit [00:39:00] of Really solid research that's backed up my professional ambitions in my professional understanding of certain things, but it also got me into being able to be shortlisted for a job that I wanted to do. So sometimes thinking a little bit differently about how you apply is a good thing.

And I think especially now with the COVID 19 situation, you may find, I don't know any statistics or data or anything at all that backs this up, but I wonder if you find a lot of part one graduates. decide that they'll just go straight through and do their postgraduate studies instead of taking a year out in practice.

Because, it's another two years. It'll help the economy. The economy will recover hopefully in that period of time. And then maybe by the time they finish their postgrad, they're able to go out and apply. So I don't know. It's just a thing off the top of my head. I think it

Stephen Drew: will. And if that happens, I think it will be accepted.

But what I'd like to reiterate is, [00:40:00] And I think the wrong thing to do would not to be to apply to places or not try it and then just think you're not going to get anything and jump straight back into industry because

Martin Andrews: no, you have to apply.

Stephen Drew: You have to give yourself the benefit because when I did it, I sent it was 2009.

It was recession. Everyone was scared. There was no jobs. And. It was a little bit like I was reading your notes earlier. You had seven interviews from 100 applications. And I think in 2009, I had 11 interview requests from, I looked and it was something like 800. Wow. But at the time, it was what it took.

And it's, but honestly, Martin, that's all I did for two days is I sat down in front of a computer for two days in the studio. And I went through the websites. Chuck, look for a director's name, read a bit about it. And then I didn't overly pretend. I know I was more direct, so it was personalized, said who I am and an availability.

And the other thing that I did is that I did it a week or two before some of the students, [00:41:00] because some people were like, I'm gonna have a break because I'm stra. It's been really stressful on the end of your show. And I applied. During the end of your show. So I did the plinth and then I was sending out the applications and I think it goes back to what you were saying about timing.

Maybe I was at the top of the queue and that's the thing. And maybe someone behind me might have a better CV, right? Cause it can be competitive. The thing is though, I was at the top of the queue, then I got in for the interview. And then when you're there, it's like I was trying to know, it was like season the moment.

And winning someone over, because when you're in the room, and if you can create that palpable excitement, and you both get along, then you're going to get the job. Yeah. And they're not going to look at the next CV, because they're like, I like Martin, he is the guy for the team. Just get Martin in, and that's done.

And, so I think early bird does catch the worm. Some I really

Martin Andrews: do. No, definitely. I am very conscious that my wife, who's a [00:42:00] lawyer, is about to go onto a conference call in the same room as me. Don't worry.

Stephen Drew: I

Martin Andrews: think that's the

Stephen Drew: perfect note to end it on as well.

Martin Andrews: I wondered if that, this is a good time to finish.

Because we've been talking now for a little bit of time, haven't we? And I think we've covered lots of things. What I would love to do, What I would love to do is maybe flip the table and we could do one of these in the future about what your experiences were for part one. Okay.

Because I would love to find out what it was. Deal. We'll

Stephen Drew: do that, but we need to make sure that you're around to do that, and I don't want to get in trouble with Mrs. Andrews. No. Thank you, Martin. For anyone that's here though, where do they, if they want to get in contact with you, where should they find you?

Martin Andrews: Find me on LinkedIn, Martin Andrews, and all of my contact details are there.

Stephen Drew: Awesome. Thank you, Martin. This has been awesome. I will now stop the recording. Thank you so much. Cheers,

Martin Andrews: Stephen.

Stephen Drew: We'll end [00:43:00] it there. Thank you.