NO ENTRY! Exposing The Barriers To Entry Within The Architecture Industry, ft. Laurence Richards and Joe Maguire

NO ENTRY! Exposing The Barriers To Entry Within The Architecture Industry, ft. Laurence Richards and Joe Maguire
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Ho ho ho! Christmas, Christmas is coming. Not long now. Procrastinate at your desk. Put this on for an hour and tell your boss you're doing some research. No one wants to work anymore. It's the time to kind of sneak off. Go to the kitchen. Have a chat with your boss. What are you doing for Christmas? How's your niece doing?

Whatever you can do to get out of that work. Anyways. The show will be revealed in 15 seconds.

10 seconds. Oh, I'm excited.

Hello everyone. And welcome to the Architecture Social. It's what day is it today? It's Thursday. We're on the edge to [00:01:00] Christmas, so if you're in the office now, I'm going to give you the perfect excuse to get distracted for 45 minutes to an hour, because I've got an important juicy topic that came up with my colleagues that I know from Macquarie Lowry.

We'll do a proper introduction of them, but last week over a Christmas festive beer, we were getting frustrated with the barriers in architecture. All this stuff. that prevents awesome people from entering the industry, difficulty from progressing within the industry, and so on and so forth. So without further ado, I have the awesome Joe Maguire, and I have the awesome Lawrence, I forget your surname now, it's Richard, isn't it?

Yeah, really awesome. Welcome gentlemen, how are you doing today? Are you all right? Oh, we're cracking. Yeah, good, thank you. Yeah, it's cold in here. You're in the office, the beautiful office. Now, [00:02:00] maybe, first of all, Lawrence, because you're closer to me, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself, for anyone that hasn't met you so far?

Yeah. Hi.

Laurence Richards: Hi, everyone. I'm Lawrence. I'm a Part 2 Architectural Assistant here at Ackroyd Lowry. Um, I'm 29, which means I've been studying to become an architect for 11 years. Or I'm turning 29, rather. Yeah. And we'll go on to talk a bit about why that might be a problem. Um, and yeah, I'm working on projects

Stephen Drew: here at Ackroyd Lowry.

Amazing. Amazing. Thank you, Lawrence. Joe, we go back. People don't know you. Okay, Joe, who are you? Uh, I'm Joe. So

Joe Maguire: I'm, again, me and Stephen do go back. Not that far. Couple of years. Um, but I'm, Almost an architect, not quite yet, I'm 26, so I've just registered and I'm waiting for registration to come back. So I'm not entirely sure on the legalities of that, but I would probably say I'm not quite an architect yet.[00:03:00]

Stephen Drew: You're pretty early there, aren't you? I think I've got some party music for you, let me have a little look here. Let's get some party music, let's get all happy, well done Joe. You know, you're there.

You're

Stephen Drew: not, you can't hear it. I think

that's

Stephen Drew: just you. You've done a little bit. No, I'm waiting for them to tell me.

Waiting for them to tell me that, um, it's all good. Brilliant. Well done. So that's interesting. So we're at different points of the spectrum between us. I mean, I'm a part two. I kind of got off into an alternate career. But Lawrence, you're on your way of doing your part three. Joe, you pretty much got there.

But also remind me, so what universities are you boys from as well? Yeah, I went

Laurence Richards: to UWE in Bristol for my undergrad and then Joe and I both met at Manchester School of Architecture for my part two. Nice. I went to Manchester as well. We're,

Stephen Drew: you know, I love the North, you know, [00:04:00] I got a soft spot for the North.

But, you know, during my undergrad, I went to the University of Westminster and it was very different. And back then, because it was like the old statistics, right? I mean, I can't remember what they were called before. UCAS points, right? And you basically at Westminster, you could pretty much get in with anything at the time, right?

But now they've gone a bit more fancier, you know what I mean? And now it's hard to get the UCAS points. So that's one barrier to begin with before we even start. Because now you've got to have like, Three or four A's are equivalent, and I remember Cardiff University had massive requirements as well. And I, of course, being Welsh, wanted to study in Cardiff, but I couldn't get in, gents.

I mean, what was your experience of getting into architecture?

Joe Maguire: I mean, I went, I went to Lincoln for my undergrad, and that was largely for that reason. It was UCAS points then, and it was mainly, I went to Lincoln because they'd take me. Um, [00:05:00] I applied to Several other universities and they all kind of didn't even give me an offer, so Getting the, um, getting an offer from Lincoln was, was a godsend, and they, uh, yeah, they let me in.

Yeah, and you know, once you get past that point, it's almost like Things start to matter less about your A Levels, like once you get past and you've got your first your undergrad degree, then you're, you can be kind of, forget about it a little bit and you're away. Yeah, I, me

Laurence Richards: too, for UCAS points, I, uh, I didn't get the, what I, what, you know, what my offer was.

Um, I, I needed 20 more, which was like an extra grade. Yeah. And the stress of that, I've never been more stressed than the night before my A level results. Um, and it, I don't think it's fair on those, you know, young people who are going through a lot at that time in their life anyway. Um, and the amount of riding on it, you know, it does define your future in a far too big a way.

And yeah, I, I luckily they accepted me anyway. Otherwise you've got clearance, haven't you? Um, [00:06:00] and you know, maybe you weren't so good. Maybe you peaked at a different time. Maybe A levels weren't for you. Maybe academia wasn't for you, or at least at the time. Yeah. As you say, it is a barrier because I know plenty of people who are great architects.

Who didn't get very good grades and, you know, if you were going by that system, maybe they weren't, wouldn't have been let in through the first door. Yeah. Which is a problem. And we'll go and talk about that a bit more. But um, yeah, I take your point. I think we both got kind of lucky in that sense, as Joe says, when you, you know, any young people out there as you move up to masters.

Um, and definitely like going in, you know, getting jobs, those kinds of things really matter way less. And like, if you are going through your GCSEs or A levels, um, give yourself a break. Obviously work hard and get, do the best you can. But like, you know, there are, there are routes and there are alternative routes emerging that aren't this traditional route that's going to take you at least seven years.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, well said, well said, and you're right, the Architectural Apprentice Scheme, I think, is quite an interesting one, and actually, one [00:07:00] of our colleagues, you know, in Accra, Lowry, is doing the Architectural Apprentice Scheme, so it would be interesting to learn there, through that good old, good old Benny Boy, you know, and Yeah, we should have brought him up.

We should have brought him up. Yeah, we can We'll get in for round two, you know, um, but what I was going to say the last point about the UCAS points in the entry I don't know about you guys, but I remember when I studied architecture We had a career, um, when I was going into it, I was interested in it. I was in college in Wales You know college and in college they basically had a career counselor and the career counselor I went to and I was like, look, I want to do architecture.

He was like, no, you can't do that And I said, why not? And he said, well, you haven't got maths and physics, you know, and, um, that's a complete massive barrier as well, because obviously those are useful skills, but you can do lots of different stuff and, and become an architect, you know, and, and I always look back because I studied IT and [00:08:00] graphic design, which you could argue is a really handy skill in architecture, but I don't know.

What about you? Do you think like, um, Maybe career coaches, counsellors they're useful, but they're understanding our architecture is kind of that old school way, you know?

Joe Maguire: I think the issue in that, almost, is that people don't know. Like, people don't know what they don't know. So, like, careers advisors and things, they haven't got any experience of our industry.

And they're not necessarily supposed to have a wide ranging understanding of all professions and all industries that you could go in. I guess they're meant to just be, you know, Quite compassionate and kind of helpful and push you in the right direction. I guess maybe your career advisor gave you a bit more invasive advice than what you might have expected.

One of the things I try to get through to people is like that things like the maths and physics is not really that important and like there are some universities I think that you're required to do maths. I think maths require maths. [00:09:00] Yeah. Um, but for the most part, like you can do almost anything as long as you've, you generally have to do something creative, but apart from that.

Like, I only really did product design, and that's what was my creative thing that took me through.

Laurence Richards: Yeah, I mean, we, um, we were given, we actually went along to one of these career talks recently. Um, we were at, um, Cardinal Pole School, which is around the corner from us in, um, Bethnal Green. Um, we were talking about this very topic.

Um, and, like, You know, people are interested when you tell them that you work in architecture, and they, a lot of people I've spoken to in my past have said, Oh, I would have loved to have done that, but I'm just rubbish at maths. Um, that's such a cliche thing to say, isn't it? And, and the truth is that you don't really do any maths, or at least not that complex stuff you do at A level, integration and whatever else, you know, I mean, I hope you don't mean saying this, you're pretty rubbish at maths.

Joe Maguire: Yeah, I'm not very good at maths.

Laurence Richards: I mean, when I'm trying to ask for some change for a beer, like I don't rely on Joe. Um, but then equally, you know, for me, it was the other way around. I was quite [00:10:00] good at maths and I didn't do academic, uh, creative topics at A level. And I was, I was always at that kind of imposter syndrome about the fact that I wasn't like one of these really flary artistic people.

So I would, yeah, my message would be like, whatever you're doing, go for architecture. It's not like anything you've ever done at school or college. Um, you know, as you said, art and graphic design are probably the closest you're going to get. But really, it's like, it's a whole nother art form that has a lot more parameters on top of it.

Just work hard, do your best at school and college and go for it if you think it's interesting and you know, we'll come on to this in more detail, but what we're offering here at Aquid Larry is work experience placements and that's a great way of giving yourself a little test if you think might be for you.

Come over here, we can give you a week's work experience and we'll give you just a little taste of what it's like to be an architect. We've got this whole program set up with a You know, a fake site or a real site, but a fake project and a fake brief. Um, and we can, you know, help you decide if it's what you want to do.

Cause. [00:11:00] Without that, you're really stepping into the unknown when you head to university.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough. And look, good for you guys in terms of, you know, going to the universities. Maybe my career counselor could have used you popping in, you know, and go, Oh yeah, there you go. Let's, let's hear what the architects have to say.

So what was it like doing that then, then Gents? I mean, when you, when you got invited to it, how did you prepare? To speak to these kids, you know, sorry, go on, that

Joe Maguire: was it, go, go for it. I think, uh, like you just said, it's important for people from architecture and other professions to go to these things and tell people, uh, and talk to kids at whatever age.

I think we went to talk to the Cardinal Paul, like they were year nines, like 13, 14, I guess they're just thinking about what they're going to do and where they might go. Um, and like getting in front of a bunch of kids who maybe had never thought about architecture before. And explaining why jobs are

and

Joe Maguire: maybe why they could have a kind of a part to play in it.

[00:12:00] Um, I mean, it's hard to understand whether or not they took it on board, but some of them have been interested. It was a pretty crazy experience. Like, I don't know if you can imagine standing in front of a room and, uh, 30, 13 to 14 year old kids. Like they, they don't always want to listen and a lot of them are interested in architecture so they just don't

Laurence Richards: really care.

Coming out of two years of, two years of working, doing school from home, um, and then being thrown into year nine. Um, but no, I mean it was, it was amazing, I really enjoyed it. Your question was about like what we did to prepare, didn't we? Which was, we thought it'd be a good idea to do the entire session live, like an architect drawing diagrams with their client.

Uh, that was, that was interesting. That was fun. It was a good little test of our presentation skills. It gave us a good understanding of what's happening in schools, because they don't have any pens that work. Yeah, and the whiteboards were tiny. The whiteboards

Joe Maguire: were tiny, there were no pens that worked, and none of them knew how to use the digital whiteboards, so that would, that were a barrier.

Laurence Richards: Yeah, that was a barrier. Jeez. Ultimately, [00:13:00] we just wanted to, yeah, we just wanted to talk about how you get into it, the different routes, your different options. There's a lot of questions about salary, wasn't there? Um, which as like two colleagues was a slightly, yeah, interesting conversation to have in front of each other, but we're friends first, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.

Joe Maguire: I mean, I guess our, I guess one of the things about architecture is that people think that our salaries are undervalued and like we deserve more money, which, you know, I'm a big advocate for getting more money. I'm not against that. But when you talk to the kids about it, they were all very excited about the prospect of kind of these large sums of money, which they couldn't really understand.

So I guess if you get in front of somebody who's 13 and, you know, You tell them that when you're an architect, you could earn upwards of 35, 000 a year in eight years time, and they're like, oh, that's amazing! I can't wait!

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. So, well, it's really interesting and good for you for doing that. It's quite an interesting topic though, so, because when I was scheduling this, You know, I thought just, and [00:14:00] I know Lawrence, you, you've kindly organized, um, you know, this talk, which is really useful when the host is me, right?

We need to organize it and we'll get on to, you know, people in behind the curtain, Stephen. It's just me, unfortunately, gents. Now you've, now you've, you've seen, you've seen it backstage, it's anti climatic, isn't it? What happens? No, no one going around with big cocktails, like the Graham Norton show or Alan Carr, is it?

Is it? It's just, it's just us on Zoom, it feels like. But, um, going back to it, um, I find it really interesting because there's a lot of barriers in architecture. I mean, there's a barrier to studying architecture, which we covered, but when you get into university, I mean, partly, so it's half of it then is survival, right?

You want to kind of get the best grade possible, and then often or not, it's like, hey, well done, you've graduated, now go out into the world. The big world and depending on the university, depending on if you went to the core course there and all this stuff, they will have some shape or form about talking [00:15:00] about CVs and portfolios.

But in essence, you're into the big wide world, right? And you've got to look for jobs. And then I think that there tends to be some barriers there. And I use the analogy, it's like a nightclub architecture and we're extremely difficult. You know, whether you're an overseas architect. You know, it's like, Oh, Oh, you haven't worked on UK buildings.

That's not good. So, Ooh, you haven't got any BIM in your portfolios, or maybe you're a graduate, like we were talking and it's like, have you got any industry experience? Ooh. Okay. Well, yeah. Okay. And you've got all this stuff. Not every employer is like that. But there tends to be barriers that pops up. In your experience, gentlemen, what are the kind of barriers that you see people having to deal with in architecture that comes to mind?

Yeah, I mean,

Laurence Richards: I was the first year of the triple tuition fees. You know, so the nine grand a year, I think it's gone up to [00:16:00] like nine and a half now. Um, when we talked to those 14 year olds and told them, you know, like I'm 10 years deep into this and I'm still not qualified. And Joe, you did it in record pace, but yours is still, what, seven?

Yeah, seven, eight years.

Laurence Richards: And you know, for five of those, you're paying nine and a half thousand pounds a year in tuition plus your, you know, Plus your maintenance. I think last time I checked and I don't do it often because it's very depressing. I was in about 150, 000 of debt and I'm on like six and a half percent interest of that.

So I don't touch the interest every year. It just, it's like exponentially growing. And when people hear that, you know, that is, I mean, I was sort of stepping backwards in terms of applying or maybe into masters, but that it surely is a massive barrier. And, you know, we Part of, part of the reason we got excited about having work experience students, especially, especially those who maybe haven't thought about architecture before, was we were thinking about those people who university might not be an option, maybe they've got to care for a loved one, maybe they've got to start earning money once they hit 18.[00:17:00]

Uh, straight away. And you know, we need those types of people in the profession. It's not good enough that, um, we, that the profession isn't represented by like the national averages, you know, we, we would just have to look, um, before we came on. I mean, we're no experts in, in diversity, but we've got our own anecdotal, um, experiences.

And then you look, you look at the, you know, for example, the ARB's most recent Most recent survey, 29%, 31 percent female, you know, that's, that's not good enough. Um, yeah, especially because when my, our experiences at uni, you pretty much get a 50 50 split, which means that the top at the top around the older demographic, it must be worse than that.

Um, that's not good enough at 1 percent black, you know, compared to an 18 percent national average. That's terrible. That's, that's awful. 1% Yeah, and, and then from our point of view, we were both state school educated, you know, there's such a large percentage of privately educated people in the profession.

Um, I was [00:18:00] looking at that little, uh, what's his name? Uh, Phineas Harper. He gave, he gave a chat, didn't he, on the, on TED Talk and his zine article saying, you know, I think UK average roughly is about 9 percent of kids go to private school. And yet, 55 percent of architecture practices are run by privately educated people.

And, you know, all of this adds up. All of that adds up to, um, you know, a profession that more often than not isn't taking into consideration the voices and opinions and, you know, cultures and everything that, um, represent larger society. And it's such an important profession for that to be the case.

Because we're, you know, we're going to be designing Cities, um, for decades to come. And if we don't have those voices at the table, they're going to be poorly designed cities.

Stephen Drew: Well said, and, um, I'm glad that you brought up the fact that, I mean, money can be an extremely limiting, um, barrier that [00:19:00] sometimes we don't like to talk about.

And I don't know why it's like, oh, we can't talk about money. Well, you have to live. We're just this year, there's cost of living crisis. Inflation and yes, there's an amazing part of architecture where you guys get to design awesome buildings, improves lives, but yes, it's expensive to study architecture and people need to live.

London's an expensive city, so appreciate you bringing that up. Joe, do you want to add anything to that? Are you happy to? I think Lawrence took all the exciting points out of that one. He got the good

Laurence Richards: ones, didn't he? He got all the good ones. You were telling me about that AJ article about the cost of living.

Joe Maguire: What was that? Oh yeah, oh no, there was an AJ article that got released yesterday, yesterday I think, um, and it's about, it touches on that effectively, about whether you, it's called can you still afford to be an architect in 2023? I mean, having said that, the AJ, it is behind a pay wall, so you know, that is, [00:20:00] that's a barrier in itself.

That is, isn't it? It's the first year I could pay for it, to be honest. Um, we only got it because the practice was so good. That's basically it, so that's why we're in, that's why we're able to read it. But, um, yeah, I guess at a point when we're talking about a professional career where we're, you know, we're, I don't know, we design buildings and we design spaces and we seem to do all these exciting things.

And then one of the The questions is whether or not it's even plausible and can you even afford to do it anymore, um, like in this time is pretty crazy. Like they're talking about, um, architects and part ones and part twos needing to talk to the Architects Benevolent Society about getting kind of, um, payments to them to be able to support their living.

Yeah. Um, Which I mean, I guess, anecdotally, for me, it's not been an issue, but it clearly, having read the article, uh, must be in some capacity. Yeah. Um, so if that's something we're feeling like now, if you're [00:21:00] looking at it from a perspective of somebody who, like Lawrence said before, you're looking to go into a career and you need to start earning money to support your family, or you need to start, um, you just want to start earning money from as early as possible, then the prospect of facing.

You know, eight years in education, um, potentially, and then also coming out of it, and then you've got people who are working in it saying, we're not earning enough money to support our lives. Yeah. It's not a good, uh, it doesn't look good from the, from one side, and it's just stopping people wanting to get involved almost.

Laurence Richards: And it tends, you know, it tends towards people who don't need to worry, you know, people who have financial backing from their family or whatever it is. People who, you know, are sat on wealth, um, can, can take that time out to study. They can take time to go on like grand tours of Europe to study, you know, the neoclassical architecture of the past, um, because they, they've got that back in.

And the more, I mean, you know, the AJ article talks about how wages are going up at half the rate that inflation is, you [00:22:00] know, so ultimately in real terms, everyone's taking a cut. So those, those people looking to get into the industry, but who need the money, as you say, Maybe they're thinking twice, whereas those who aren't worried about that, great, I get to be an architect, I get to design beautiful buildings, it doesn't really matter about the money, and that class divide.

Um, grows. I think it goes,

Joe Maguire: I mean to switch on that again, I can't find the quote exactly, but it goes on at some point to say like, is architecture becoming a profession that's only accessible by people who are financially independent already, which kind of, it does limit. Those people we were talking about before, like it just, it's, that's a barrier to stop it, stopping them thinking I'm going to get involved because I need money already to even be able to study this thing.

Stephen Drew: Um, no, you're right. I was going to plug the article and I'll bring it up now, but AJ's website's not working. So the one time I plugged them for free, their website's not working, but people can try and click it later. [00:23:00] And maybe they'll have a bit more luck, but sadly, AJ, I couldn't get your website up, but I do enjoy your work when it's there.

Oh, I've gone to the wrong one. Sorry. I brought you back guys. But here we go. I just can see that, um, I actually got a commentary that's come in from Paul in who is vice president of the Manchester Society of Architects. Really cool stuff. Hey, not far from where we our roots boys. So, um, Paul says, I've just done a workshop comparing architecture to, um, Masterchef and social long hours.

Make, uh, a few make serious money. Most do it for the love of it. Serious question. Why do so few, few students even bother to Google what an architect earns? Every time I ask, it's less than 10%. It's paradoxical and frustration. Literally caveat mTOR in the truth. Oof, scathing. [00:24:00] Commentary from Mr. Paul there.

I mean, I, I know exactly why a lot of people Google it. And, um, when I speak to students and I'll just throw that in. So, Paul, I think like, um, Lawrence hit the nail on the head when you're paying nine grand a year and you've also got your, you know, your living costs. We're on top of the nine grand and paying for the, um, portfolio and the, the models.

It's, you're both looking at 16 grand a year. I did, um, I did a rough calculation, um, gents, and I worked it out to be Between 65 to 90, 000 pounds on average to become an architect. Now, if I'm going to spend 90 grand on something, I'm going to know, I want to know what I'm being paid. And I'll tell you another quick example of that where a good, it's like the salaries are higher in London.

The cost of living is higher in London and you get some really responsible employers in Manchester. But I remember a lot of good [00:25:00] Manchester students would move to London because Equivalent salary is lower in some of the regions. And so you're always going to be thinking about salaries and as a recruiter, salaries are a very important part.

of people choices is probably the top three. It's about where I'll tell you the top three criterias are. And this could be one barrier, which is eased up is remote working. But generally, it's top criteria and recruitment is how much am I going to get paid? Where am I going to work? And the new one is How often will I, do I have to go to the office, which wasn't one before, right?

But now it's a big deal. The average is between three to four days in the office, one day or two days at home, you know, with a bit of flexibility. But maybe that's another, um, point we can jump on. And Paul, thank you for adding the comment. But actually, before I move on, does any, you want to add anything to my, to our, Discuss that with [00:26:00] Paul.

Laurence Richards: I think the most interesting point that Paul makes for me is the, the bit about how we do it for the love of it, which is, I think that is so true. And it's kind of the, the great thing about our job is, is how fun it is and how we get so passionate about our projects beyond our pay packet. But it's also, I think part of our downfall.

I mean, I'm no economics expert, I got a D, but the, you know, the general premises of supply and demand is that, you know, like the wage will dictate how many people want the job, where that gets skewed by the amount of people who just kind of give up on the, you know, getting a decent wage because they just want to design buildings and, you know, part of the stuff we were talking about, um, with you know, traditional route being so long is that even, even though it is so long, So, you don't, for me, learn the right things and part of the stuff we were talking with the kids is that I've spent probably five, six years at university learning to design and all the really, which was great, but [00:27:00] all the really important legal bits, you know, the stuff, the proper processes, you've got planning and building control and constructing detailing and all of that comes in your final year, it's what Joe's just finished, it's what I'm doing now.

And so, even though you spend all that time and all that money in university, actually You're not learning the right things. These alternative routes now that are coming on board, hybrid stuff, you were just talking about Ben who works here at Aquid Larry is doing his hybrid education. He gets to work and study at the same time and he's learning, you know, the real life realities of it in practice.

And then he's also doing a bit more fun, a bit more, um, academic stuff at school. And that seems like a great option. I think the AJ, excuse me, RIBA, are finally coming around to the, like, the problem of architecture education. And getting on board with hybrids. I want to see more universities offering it.

And hopefully that will help people who need to be working whilst they study.

Joe Maguire: I think what we're talking about is wanting to have more routes [00:28:00] to registration, basically. Like it's Well and good be there being a traditional kind of route through, because that's probably never gonna go anywhere. Like maybe they'll, it could be shortened slightly and you could lose some years here and there, but I think ultimately there's going, there has, there is going to be a university based, like traditional route to registration, but there should be more options for people to be able to.

To, I guess what I'm about to,

Hmm.

Joe Maguire: To, uh, step out into somehow.

Laurence Richards: Yeah. If you want to do that route that we took, go for it. And if, if it works for you, go for it. And I will point out, you know, maybe you're not aware of like, maintenance grants. I got four maintenance grants, um, you know, living with my single mom at the time, uh, some years and that really, really helped me.

It made it possible for me. Yeah. And also look into the university itself. 'cause you're getting like the, the nationwide grants, but look into the university itself 'cause they do separate grants sometimes. which again really helped me and I probably wouldn't have been able to afford to live otherwise.

So if you are going the [00:29:00] traditional route and you're not aware of that stuff, have a Google. Um, yes,

yeah,

Joe Maguire: but also have a

Laurence Richards: Google of these hybrid routes.

Joe Maguire: I do think it's important to know that we're not necessarily saying that, that university education and the traditional route is bad. Like I really enjoyed my time at university.

It was extremely long, but I've I don't know, I met some really good people, Boris for example, at both universities and like, learned a lot along the way, but I, I just think that yeah, if we're talking about barriers, there's, there should be other potential options for people to take.

Laurence Richards: And if we were learning more of the right stuff at uni, Maybe, maybe we'd be more valuable to employers when we come out, you know, instead of spending so long on the academic side of design, if we got into the nitty gritty of what it takes on a day to day, we'd be more valuable to employers and wages would be better, and then that's a positive cycle because then wages go up and you encourage more people Who for wages, it's an important factor.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, [00:30:00] yeah, fair enough. I just realized I answered Paul's question wrong, but hey, there you go. Sorry, Paul. I thought you might have been approaching it at the wrong, the wrong end. Well, let me hear, let me go on that though. Cause I think no one before used to ask about salaries, but Paul, I reckon it's more than 10%.

Um, I reckon now more than ever people talk about salaries. That's my theory. And maybe it's because of my job, but like when I speak on the phone, the first thing is always about money. Yeah. So, um, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting hearing you guys talk about barriers to entry. Do you think, uh, one of the barriers to entry, you talked about there, the connection between academia and architecture practice.

Now, I think that there is a disconnect. I was invited to the A Bartlett Roundtable and I think the Bartlett have invited people from the industry to come in and talk about things because obviously there was the massive Bartlett report talking a little bit about what Paul was saying before of [00:31:00] architecture compared to Masterchef, you know, kind of an abusive cult sheriff, you know, Gordon Ramsay kind of thing.

I'll get my swear button ready, like, you know, what the f How stupid are you? You know, like, how could you ever build a building like that? You're a disgrace! Get out of my studio! You know, I think there's like a bit of like that thing that happens, but

Laurence Richards: You talked about Cardiff. of tutors ripping drawings off the walls, um, before the, and, and yeah, the Bartlett report was pretty scathing.

Um, I don't like the sound of that. I've experienced it. Um, kind of going back to what we said at the beginning, you know, that your careers advisor said that you didn't have the right skills. Um, I've met people along, along the way in my education, architecture education that have either explicitly told me or implied that this isn't the right job for me, you know, and that imposter syndrome stuff you get gets worse and worse than that.

Um, but [00:32:00] there, it takes all sorts to be an architect and it takes all sorts of architects to make the profession. So if you're, if you're looking to study or you're looking to get into the job, but you feel like, you know, it's not for you, if you love, if you love doing it, or you think you'll love doing it, go for it.

That's, that would be my advice. Yeah,

Stephen Drew: yeah, yeah, fair enough. Yeah, well, I mean, like you said, you kind of have to, the idea of building buildings, I mean, what other profession does it, right? I mean, I think that's the trade off for salaries is that, you know, it could be this amazing career where, you know, you're not clock watching Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You're literally building buildings. You're, you're making a big difference to the urban fabric. Whereas I don't know about you guys, but I've had loads of part time jobs before where I was just like, literally like, Oh my God, can the end of the day come, you know? And then they put, especially like, um, sorry for anyone in, Working in a supermarket, but I used to be in Waitrose, like, and they were good because it's good food, like, you know, but it's just still stacking shelves, lads, you know, like soul destroying.

And then you get a grumpy [00:33:00] customer going like, excuse me, I cannot find this. And, you know, what was wrong with the layout? And I'm like, ma'am, I do not design the store. Okay. I'm on 3. 50 trying to survive architecture school. But the point is, there must be some awesome stuff in architecture. So a quick light note, before we go on.

So what do you both enjoy about the jobs, now that you're in it?

Laurence Richards: Um, it's, yeah, the design. It's the design, it's all the stuff you do at uni for me. It's, um, you know, it's the, the drawing and the different iterations, talking with your clients, talking with consultants. Making it work in real life, that's the dragon that everyone chases, I think.

I

Joe Maguire: think it's like the challenge, isn't it? It's the challenge, the design kind of um, fixing any problems that come up, like you have suddenly somebody comes in and they need a completely different thing and then you have to, there's a problem and you have to kind of solve the issue and you get to spend a lot of time playing with [00:34:00] different options, like Lawrence says.

I think it's ultimately the

Stephen Drew: design is the exciting thing. Yeah, and you both are really good at that because I've seen Joe, you're a bit of a magician flipping around. Apartments really quick. That's like your, your, your nimble skill in there, isn't it? I would never refer to myself as an

Joe Maguire: expert in anything

Stephen Drew: but an apartment flipper, an apartment flipper, yeah.

Yeah, you, you're apartment flippers. No, you're both good at it. Very interesting. Right. You'd be impressed, Lawrence. Actually, we were blitzing through your lists. We're kind of getting there, you know, so far we've touched upon class, race, and gender diversity in architecture, or basically the lack thereof, right?

And it is important. We've covered a bit of the failures of the architecture, um, education system. Can you talk about what, um, because what's interesting, at Acura Lowry, I think you guys being a part of setting up a work experience program. So what would be really interesting to know is like, where did this idea come from?

Who is the [00:35:00] kind of person that comes on the work experience? And then what do you do on that work experience week or what have you?

Joe Maguire: Well, who's looking at me? I think the um, I don't want to say that I came up with the idea, but I don't know, it came out of a team. It probably came out of a drunken conversation in a pub, um, talking about how I think there's kind of limits to getting into architecture and how I went through architecture school talking to a lot of people who were privately educated, um, and.

were, didn't come from the same kind of background as where I grew up from. And I was like, it's quite clear that there's some level of disparity here between like the people in industry and kind of the the general populace. Which touches on all of the things you said like in terms of like race and gender and general backgrounds and things.

Yeah. So I posed, I think, to Ollie and said we, I'd like to get involved [00:36:00] in schools and uh, Somehow, I don't know, inspire or just get people to understand that this is an opportunity for them. Because as Lauren said before, you know, everybody lives in the world, everyone lives in these cities and buildings that we design.

So we have a representative profession that is, you know, designing for those people. Nice. Um, and then I Yeah, I think I badgered on about it for a while and then we ended up, I talked to Lawrence about it and Lawrence wanted to help out and now Lawrence is kind of the driving force and doing all the, um, doing all things because I, I forget.

You're the brains and he's the brawns, right? I, I, I came up with an idea and I, I'm not smart enough to make things happen. And forget that, but the important thing is, yeah, we

Laurence Richards: put together a workers groups program. I've done it before in my previous practices. But, um, you know, normally work experience kids are the children of clients, which is fine.

But we would love it to, [00:37:00] um, you know, to here at Outlook Lowry to welcome guys who don't have those connections. That's such a big part of the barriers of architecture is the, is the family connections, the names you know or don't know. Um, forget that. Like, if you need work experience, then come talk to us, um, at Aquid Larry.

We've created a week long program where, as we said, we give you a little site down the road, we give you a brief, we act as a client and as a, um, what's the other one? As an associate, someone who's looking out for you, and you design up a building, normally a house. Um, and it gives you a little flavor of what it's like.

It will probably get you excited because it's the fun bit of architecture. Um, and it can help you with your university applications or maybe job applications. As a tangent to that, we're also really happy to help you with university portfolios or maybe give you some interview experience. That's another barrier, isn't it?

That like, in my experience, privately educated kids are really good at talking to people. They've done a lot of presenting. They know how to be charming [00:38:00] and all that. Whereas, um, in state school, I felt like we didn't do much of that at all, and I just had to rely on my own innate BS. Um, and so if you need a bit of interview prep, you know, you need some buzzwords, again, come to us, we can help you.

If you need a bit of mentoring, we'd love to help. Um, hopefully it won't take up my entire job, but, um, like, come, yeah.

Joe Maguire: Things are, things are logging up now, aren't they? As we're trying to get involved in more schools and trying to get involved with more people.

Laurence Richards: Yeah, and if you're

Joe Maguire: clogging up the inbox with, uh, how we're gonna, how we're gonna fit this in around our,

Laurence Richards: yeah, if you're, if you're listening and you're part of a work experience program or, um, careers program at like locals, especially in London, in schools and colleges, get in touch with us.

We're happy to go and do outreach stuff. We'd love to talk about architecture with kids, um, who, you know, otherwise have no idea what it is. I think that's what we need to

Joe Maguire: do. That's like the first step we were talking, like, I think when we first started talking about how we were going to get this kind of [00:39:00] experience program off the ground, we were like, we came up with the, the thing and like how we were going to get people excited about architecture.

And then we were like, well, we don't have anyone to do it. Like, there's no, we don't know where to get people from. So then even getting in contact with schools was. You know, that was the next step that we had to cross, and we had to send out emails to loads of people, and eventually you get back with somebody.

But like, yeah, we just, if anybody, um, anybody who happens to be listening wants to, wants to get involved, then we're happy to come and talk to the students about architecture.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll do that. We'll get it on the website. Uh, Build Studios in Waterloo do something not quite the same, but I think you guys will get along.

But obviously Akra Larry really cares about, um You know, the local area as well, as I know, because when I got to go there, I got to go all the way up to Blooming Bethnal Green, which now I started to warm up to, but at first I was like, Bethnal Green, you know, I'm not, I'm not familiar with this area, but that's right.

So then. [00:40:00] So you do a lot of stuff locally in the area. You love, you know, the schools there and so on forth, but then the project is virtual as well. So that's cool. So they can't get in trouble, right? That's good. So they're not going to, you know, mess anything up. That's probably a better work experience than what I've seen where people go for work experience and then they end up doing, like, I don't know, cleaning up the files in the systems for like a week.

We know that.

Laurence Richards: We know making

Joe Maguire: teas. We want it to be an actual real, well, I guess a slightly romanticized version, but also very real, like we want them to know what it is that we do in our day to day jobs and

Laurence Richards: not just get

Joe Maguire: into it. Yeah, and you don't need any skills.

Laurence Richards: You don't need like, you know, you don't need to know certain softwares and stuff.

Like, we can help you with all that. Don't feel like, oh, I don't know how to use X. Just come and we'll like show you the ropes and it'll be fun. Yeah,

Stephen Drew: it's really valuable. And, um, I tell you one quick thing. Gents, at [00:41:00] Westminster there was a week thing where you had to work in practice, and this was years ago, and you know, I was bricking it, you know, I was like, oh, I've got to wear a shirt, and going in the office, and I was really scared, but it was amazing, because You were in the office, you soak up the environment, you learn so much.

And that's why I'm really glad to see that you're doing work experience. Okay, some can be remote, it can be in the office, but you really get a feel of it. There's nothing like being there to really get a sense of it. And either you pick up the bug, or then the worst case I would say to people is then if you don't like it, then you know, don't you?

Or, or, or you, or alternatively. You know, you get a sense of the place. So, so Accra, Lowry, small to medium practice, architecture practice, you know, about 30 people, it's really nice. Some people like the big corporate companies, or it could be the other way [00:42:00] around, you, you, you totally like that independent company vibe, which is cool.

And then you gravitate towards that. So I always think it's good to go. to different work experiences as well. You don't have to do just one, you know, it's like, what's it like to work at Acura Lowry? What's it like to work at Stephen Drew Architects? Before you say anything, Joe, it would be amazing to work at Stephen Drew Architects.

I think the AIB might come after you for that. You can't say that. Yeah, I'm not an architect. AIB, I'm not an architect. It was a joke. It's

Joe Maguire: a nice apology for that. Oh, I

Stephen Drew: got, I got a letter today from somewhere else in the world for something online. We were talking about that earlier. So yes, You've got to be very careful what you say online.

While we were saying here, well, let me see. I've got something come in. I'm just going to quickly scan it. Um, Oh yeah, well, we're bringing it up. We'll risk it because I can't do two things at once. So Jan says the best part of seven years learning about Skyhooks and budgetless dreams, then [00:43:00] having to learn the reality on the job is to be told by some clients.

Why do we need an architect when a builder can draw it? on the back of a fag packet and submit it to planning. Oof. Brutal. Hence the article in the Guardian recently. Ah yes, this Guardian article has upset a lot of people. An architect is a rich man's folly by Giles Corden, which scathes architects. We could do with support from the RIBA in wage limit fee.

Fees, fee scales, and maybe control over who can submit planning applications, which dot dot dot. Well, we didn't get the end of it there, but I think it's fair to say, and I, even though, because I've been on the RIBA council, haven't I, but being impartial to that, You know, another, um, um, contentious point, I guess, before is that a lot of people, including myself at some point, do you feel supported by the RIBA and all these governing bodies?

Because there are a lot more they can do. Lawrence, I see you nodding [00:44:00] your head here, and don't worry, we're not going to go with the picket forces outside the RIBA and stuff, but do you agree with Jan? Do you think that, like, the RIBA needs to come in and, you know, Get involved with, you know, these wage limits, fees and fee scales and stuff.

Yeah. Yeah.

Laurence Richards: Um, I mean, we used to, didn't we? We used to have like, we used to sort of live outside the pools of, of a capitalist economy and set our own wages. Um, and then that got rid of, I think it was in the eighties, wasn't it? Um, and has been a problem and I'll go back and forth over this. I think a bigger problem than, I mean, we, we, we need to charge better fees and we need as an industry to look after each other instead of a race to the bottom.

Um, but beyond that, we need to stop working for free. We need to actually do the job that the fee pays for. Um, we're so scared of, of our clients running off that we, you know, we just do a load of free work and we take on liability that we, We don't deserve to. Um, I mean, it's a much bigger issue [00:45:00] about, about wages in architecture.

And my only input from this conversation's perspective would be we need to teach our kids or our young adults in university the right skills. Um, and, uh, sorry, I forget the name of the questionnaire, but, uh, what they Uh, Jan, Jan, you

Stephen Drew: sheepishly says, I don't mean this on negative. Don't worry, Jan, we're wrong.

Christmasy mates, yeah, you're not going to get in trouble, you're in good company.

Laurence Richards: What, what, um, what they're touching upon, um, is that it's a total disparity between what you, what you learn at university and then you come into the real world and it's a real like, you know, dunk in cold water and you, like, you kind of just hope, or I hope that you still, you still love it, which I do.

Um, but we need to, we need to be more practical with our skill, like what the skills we're learning, and this Skyhooks thing is such a good point. And everyone at Splitsie who's been to university talks about this, is that the educational system is broken. Um, and RIBA could do a lot to help, and then hopefully it would be more, more helpful to our employers, and that would help wages.

I think that

Joe Maguire: that, if we [00:46:00] circle back to kind of the discussion about the hybrid kind of costs and things, like, That is something that would help like the, the actual system, education system in a minute, even though it does allow for you to do your year out and then like another year at part two. I guess you, you're part one year out, a lot of the time you're not really, you're not doing loads and loads of stuff.

Like you, you are assisting, you kind of, but I don't know, I recall from my part one, it was a bit disjointed, but I didn't really feel like I learned loads like I, about how to necessarily put a building together. And then after two years, my years at Masters, I'd. Kind of forgot it all again. So as soon as I came into part two afterwards, it's like starting all over again.

Um, but I think, yeah, if you're doing like a hybrid course and like, I think they're talking about doing like a condensed five year course almost where you could work alongside it as well. Like you're, you're going to be getting this, that experience at both sides. And I think, I don't know, ultimately, I feel like it will probably, um, cultivate.

[00:47:00] The

Laurence Richards: long term vision for the Aquilaria Academy, which is what, you know, this Work Experience Program is part of, from our director level, is that we could bring people on to work and study as architects full time, and they can get trained up in the skills and, you know, practice as effectively as an architect without the professional title.

Now, that might not be for you. And that's, you know, each individual person's decisions to make, but we've all, you know, Stephen and Joe, you'll have met people who never went to university, who don't have that, that piece of paper that says, I'm an architect, who are amazing architects. And there's plenty of star architects who are like that, aren't there?

Um, and hopefully here at Alcatraz we're like trying to push. Um, for that to be like a long term gain, uh, you know, gain of ours, that we, people can come in and learn how to be an architect without the need for formal education.

Joe Maguire: That comes from the initial kind of thought of it, that you could, that anybody could [00:48:00] be an architect, and I guess if you don't have that ability to go to university and spend all that time, then if, you know, if, if you come in on one of our work experience courses, uh, and like we meet you through school or whatever, and then you're, you show a lot of passion, you really want to get involved in the industry, but you just don't have, I don't know, the time maybe, or you don't have, um, for some reason you can't go to university, then there's potential that you could work in the industry and you could work for AcadLowry as a, um, and then step up through the ranks, um, in that way and kind of learn what you need to learn here.

And then maybe, We talked about it a lot about we don't want to stop people going to university if they want to. Um, and like maybe there'd be a way that perhaps you could support people through education while they were also working here, which I guess again, harks back to kind of the hybrid, um,

Stephen Drew: yeah, the hybrid courses.

Yeah. Nice. Well, I just brought up the website. So if anyone's interested in getting in touch with you on that then then they can but we haven't finished just yet don't [00:49:00] worry and I'm not letting you guys go just just yet you know um as long as you want to stay that is what I was going to say because I think we've covered a lot of points here but I think it's quite interesting to throw it back to me because you know I've been the one asking the questions here now and um we all have different perspectives which are equally valued from the um industry is there any questions you'd like to Ask me, gentlemen, about the barriers or lack of diversity in architecture and all that stuff.

That's

Laurence Richards: not on the agenda. Well, you're, you know, you've got one foot in recruitment, Stephen. Yeah. You know, from a recruitment point of view, what are people looking for? Very good question.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I mean, in the graduate level, and you touched upon it, Lawrence and Joe, and just to reiterate it, I think that one of the trade offs that universities, of course, it's about critical thinking and design ability and all that stuff, but one of the immediate trade offs for employers should be software skills, and [00:50:00] that's like an easy Trim the stack because it's like, hey, you've not built yet, right?

So if you come in all like with amazing renders and, and at the same time, you've, you've got like kick ass BIM or you've at least experimented in that area or whatever, then I think like that's a really nice way. That's a trade off in the industry. You know, the analogy with the bouncer, like, why should you come in here?

And it's like, oh, I got Revit. And they're like, oh, good. That's a buzzword. And I think that. The danger is that, um, depending on the university, how much software is emphasized is completely different, you know? Um, I remember during my first year of university, people were like, oh, you shouldn't touch a computer.

You got to be drawing. You're going to be one of them. And I was like, I was like itching to get on the computer as soon as possible and then people started going that way, but I do think that software is probably the barrier there. I mean, when you get fever in your career, there's barriers for different reasons.

I mean, one thing to avoid, which always comes to mind, I think, is getting [00:51:00] pigeonholed. I mean, it's a difficult one, but you can get pitch and holds on RIBA stages and sectors, sectors in particular. So like a really extreme example is like healthcare or transport, you know, like say now you've worked on TFL for the last 10 years, you're going to be amazing at designing, uh, Um, underground stations, but not much else.

And I think that our industry can be very unforgiving on, like, moving across. So, it's like, you know, if someone rocks up in a residential practice with a lot of train station experience and underground, they're probably not going to get the job because of the The sectors, so it doesn't mean you won't earn a lot of money.

People can consult for TFL and earn a lot of money. But the point I'm going to go, I'm going in, in barriers is that I think sectors, sectors and softwares are typically the biggest barriers. And so I think as a student, I would always try to get as much sector [00:52:00] experience as you can, but don't be too harsh on yourself when you enter the industry.

I don't know about you guys, but when I joined EPR as a part one, you're just like happy to get in the industry. So really you get chucked on a project and you don't even think about it. You're like, Oh yeah, that's me. And if it's residential, then you tend to do residential for a year. Or commercially, you tend to do commercial for a year.

I think, don't worry about it at the start, but my advice is like to people, especially when they're becoming recently qualified, you need to think about if you will really want to continue in that sector. You need to research the long term factors of that sector, and if you don't want to do it, I think it's a good time to move aside.

So, what do they cover? Software, sectors, that's it. Oh, and sectors can affect money, big time. That's the other thing people never think about. So, my last rant before I move on, is like, so, data centers, for example, is extremely limiting, but extremely profitable. Because [00:53:00] Facebook and all that stuff, right, they're throwing money at the architects.

Comparatively to other sectors, social housing, data centers, what's everyone on? Social media, right? So data centers are getting knocked up and you, you can make a lot of money, but then it's like, do I want to design data centers? And some people are like, nah. But other people are like, yeah, I love it. Right.

So it's money, um, sectors and software are all connected. And, um, yeah, I think that when you're a student, it's less about the sectors. It's more about the software that you can offer. Is that useful, Joe, um, and Lawrence, my, my long rant thing. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do have one

Joe Maguire: question for you, which you probably touched on a lot in the past.

Um, but talking about like part one, how do you think we help? You can help part ones get like into the industry more because I don't know, I feel like when I, [00:54:00] things might change now, but I doubt it. When I applied for my part one, I applied to like a hundred jobs. Yeah. From like two. And like, it's very, um, I think, I feel like the industry as a whole can be quite, especially at the university, it can be quite, um, You can take a lot of criticism, you have to kind of be able to shoulder a lot of criticism.

And I feel like then applying for so many jobs, not hearing anything back maybe, it's like another knock back, which is like Soul destroying kind of moment, isn't it? Yeah, so what, how do you think we can, you know, help part ones in any way and prepare them for how to get a job?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, really good question.

No, really good question. It's an ongoing thing. I mean, that's kind of where the idea of the Architecture Social started in lockdown. So it's like, I'll talk about CVs and portfolios to help people get jobs. I've been building content there. The truth is, it's not like just one of us can do it. It's like you said, it's a collaborative [00:55:00] thing.

So, I can talk about what looks good in a CV and portfolio, but it's been years and years. Since I've done technical detailing, right, and when you're in an interview, I can't comment on the strength of a technical detail because I haven't done it for so long and that can trip up an interview, you know, so there's a lot of facets and I think that the ideal scenario is that we keep building content like the Akron Larry Academy, like the Architecture Social, and just try to get it out there for people that they can you.

Easily find it. I think the trick is like, how do you get to students in all the noise? So it's like, for example, one or two people I was speaking to the last week or two who knew me for doing these live streams, like crazy LinkedIn live stream guy, then they're aware of some of the content I was doing from it, but there's still a lot of people who were not familiar with it.

So it's like, how do you reach out to people who are not aware of my website, not aware of [00:56:00] AcroLowry, and how do you get to them? And you touched upon it a little bit about trying to ring in universities, but I don't know about you, your guys experience with that, but my experience of trying to get in with universities takes a long time.

You've got to ring them up, you've got to try to get that connection, they're, they're doing their course, you know, the tutors are working on You know, seasonal times, they're off during certain weeks and months, and it takes a lot of work. It's not impossible, but my, so for me, we have all this good stuff spread out there, and there's a lot of good people doing this stuff, but it's just not being found, and, and I'm not talking about like a search engine optimization lesson.

Yeah, I'm just thinking like, how do you reach out to these? People it's like that South Park quote, isn't it? How do I reach out to these kids? And it's like, I don't know. It's a hard one. And I think we just got to keep doing it. Keep, I mean, I mean, one of the things that [00:57:00] I'm coming to mind, which I haven't done, is actually TikTok, I think, as much as I hate to say it, it's like going on TikTok.

I don't know if like, hey kids, daddy architecture dance. So yeah, you've got your lighting behind you. I think that'll work out well. My CD lighting, as you said before, isn't it? Unbelievable. That was backstage, that was backstage. It's alright, I don't mind it. Now you said it, I'll change the colours, like, well I might keep it, but yeah, it has got a bit of a Stringfellow vibe to it now I've looked at it, you know.

But yeah, I mean, so maybe it's going into non conventional channels. And reaching out and trying to give people the information they're looking for. And then it's kind of like cataloging it, Lawrence, like you said before, you know, it's like CV here, portfolio here. And like Joe, as you said, maybe it's technical bit here or a BIM course here.

But it's very hard to know, um, what people want. I'll tell you, um, one lesson I learned a year and a half ago, when I had the [00:58:00] community forum, there was this really nice guy, I think his name was Simon, Simon Murphy, and he spent hours, guys, doing these Revit courses, and I did one or two with him, And you know, it was for the community and it was for free.

And then he had a competition. And so Simon makes massive competition of this like fake building, a little bit like what you were doing now. And I put prizes in and all this stuff, and it was an assignment to design these projects and it was a great idea. And we got there and, and to the, to the deadline and there was no submissions.

And I, that's when I learned, I was like, Supply and demand or like, you know, so for instance, a 10 minute video I do on YouTube about top 10 things wrong in CVs, that video just keeps building up every month, but to do something which requires a lot of commitment in Revit, where you need the license and it's a great idea and there's prizes, but it's a lot of work.

Nothing. So you, it's like, [00:59:00] how do you reach out to people who have a short attention span when these social algorithms is an ongoing thing? Question of mine. Is that rant also useful? Very. I think so. Yeah, thanks. It's quite clear from that we need to Architecture TikTok is the way forward. Yeah, I keep hearing that.

Um I don't want to do it, but we've got to look at it, guys,

Laurence Richards: you know? Why is everyone on TikTok doing karate

Stephen Drew: chop? I don't know. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, exactly. But that just shows you how bad my dancing is, where I'll just do the dad dance, you know, like Peter Kay style. Yeah, well,

Laurence Richards: can we just, yeah, if we could just plug ourselves for one more minute is that if you want work experience, you want help with your, with your interview, or you want help with your university application, or even maybe you're looking for a job, and you want to start at the very bottom run of architecture, then yeah, please get in touch with Larry and Joe and I, and there's plenty of other people here.

Um, we'd love to help you. Um, [01:00:00] genuinely, like, from the bottom of our heart, it's not, we haven't got an ulterior motive. We would really like to see more diversity in architecture. Um, we think, we feel it's important. Um, we can't have, you know, posh, white, old men designing the cities of the future forever, unfortunately.

I think their time is over. And I'm probably going to be one of them. Fair enough.

Stephen Drew: I

Laurence Richards: love

Stephen Drew: it. Yeah, you are, Lawrence. Hey! Back of my head. And there's, there's Oliver. And we got Ben over here, the Architectural Apprentice, right? You know, he's looking happy, isn't he?

Laurence Richards: You know. Yeah, well, we were told to look happy in that photo, so Yeah!

Stephen Drew: You must look happy now! Cheese!

Laurence Richards: Okay, that's a great place to work, yeah.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's pretty cool. I like it. Um, yeah, brilliant. All right, gentlemen. Joe, do you have any, like, final, um, bits that you'd like to add as well? I don't think I think we covered it. I think,

Joe Maguire: yeah, we just want to make sure that everybody understands that a message isn't You know, it's, it's not really for us necessarily.

It's, we're trying to help [01:01:00] as much as we can. And, uh, we just want, if people want to get in contact, anyone from, if, I don't know what your demographic of listeners is, Stephen, but I imagine there's not many like school age people who would want to get in contact. But if there's anybody who happens to let know of schools or be involved in schools, then we're happy to do outreach and, um, come and, um, Chat to kids and try and get them involved in architecture in some capacity.

And we're developing the, the, the presentation we're gonna, we're gonna add. It's gonna be more exciting. Oh, the presentation is going to be great. Yeah. Maybe we'll stop doing the hack the life thing. We'll figure it out. But

Stephen Drew: perfect. Amazing. Well, on that note, I've got, let me just check. I've got one. I've got one final comment that's come in, which says brilliant discussion.

Thanks, Stephen, Joe and Lawrence. Well, the big thank you goes to you guys, because this has been very easy for me. Cause you pretty much run the show. So thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here. I'm probably going to end the live stream now, uh, cause it's, we've been bang on an hour, which is perfect.

So [01:02:00] thank you so much, Joe and Lawrence. Absolutely amazing what you do. You should be really proud of yourself. And yeah, all the stuff that you guys do at Aqualary is amazing. I can't wait to see the updates. On the Akron Lowry Academy, but also as well, keep me up to date on how it goes with the work experience stuff.

It's really cool. Thanks, Stephen. Yeah, thanks for having us on. very much. Really enjoyed it. Really good chat. All right, guys. On that note, everyone who's tuned in, thank you so much. Have a good week, try not to do too much work, and if I manage to find another excuse to do a show, so that you can, you know, distract yourself for another hour, I'll update it on LinkedIn.

Thank you so much, I'm gonna go now, um, have a great day, try not to get too drunk, and don't slip in the snow, and see you all soon. Take care, bye. Bye,

[01:03:00] bye.