Oops! Did I Do That? Ayo Abbas Spills the Tea on the Top 5 Architecture Marketing Mistakes
Oops! Did I Do That? Ayo Abbas Spills the Tea on the Top 5 Architecture Marketing Mistakes
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[00:00:00]
Stephen Drew: Hello everyone in the UK. I hope you survived the hot summer. We're just about getting there. Autumn's down the road. Now, before you all swell to the death, grab your wine, strap in, and relax because we're going to be talking about a few hard truths today in terms of architecture marketing. What am I on about?
All will be revealed. And I have someone who has been stuck and lumbered with me for a few years. However, They are going to make sense of this show and on that fantastic note, I've got the lovely Ayo Abbas from Abbas Marketing. How are you?
Ayo Abbas: I am good. I am good. How are you?
Stephen Drew: Oh, I'm spoiling sweating, but I'm also excited and I'm so glad you are here to talk about marketing because you're a professional and I'm the
Ayo Abbas: am.
Stephen Drew: I've, I've kind of [00:01:00] learned to those have gone and I need a bit of marketing tricks, but together we can talk about the subject of today, which is the top five things that people, uh, architecture practice directors, business owners, or market, some marketeers, not all of them, not, not some people. Yeah. But some of the mistakes that they make the top five ones that we see every day, which can be improved.
However, before we do that, IO, for anyone that hasn't met you before, tell us a little bit about yourself and who you are.
Ayo Abbas: So I am Iowa Bass. I am an award winning, uh, marketing consultant and I work for myself. I am digital woman of the year 2002 overall winner. Um,
Stephen Drew: ooh,
Ayo Abbas: um, I do, uh, I'm a marketing consultant. I also do content. I create content because I love it. And I also have started training, uh, built environment. So yeah, that's kind of what my, what I do, um, I guess my [00:02:00] background is I've done probably a lot, most of my work with large engineering firms, the likes of Arup and Rambo and consultancies like Mace and stuff like that.
So that's where my background comes from and working, I guess, with many of the leading architecture practices from their kind of marketing side. So that's, that's me.
Stephen Drew: very, very good. So the big to the small, the red tape to the, I don't know what we're doing. Please help me. What can we do? I'm,
Ayo Abbas: Yeah, I do work with PropTech and Contech firms as well as some of the startups, which is always really interesting because they are learning, many of those founders are ex architects who might be learning how to run, you know, you know, PropTech firms and Contech firms, which is really interesting.
Stephen Drew: brilliant. I think it really helps to get perspective. And as. Someone in your field, when you see it all, you know, that's really informs the how, you know, different styles of marketing, different things. Now, before we go into it, so in case. There's, you know, there's an architectural practice watching this who's like, I'm busy.
I'm winning [00:03:00] projects. I don't have time to think about marketing. In your definition though, IO, what is marketing and loosely, why is it important for businesses or anyone that's doing a bit of a hustle or whatever out there? Why should they, why should they care about marketing?
Ayo Abbas: Um, do you know what? I think marketing is very much about clients understanding who they are, what they want from you. And I guess as well, how you can communicate them, communicate with them to sell what you do. Um, and I think that's really, really important. So getting to the grips of that is really important.
Basically how you, I always think marketing is mainly around what's your message, who are you targeting and what's your positioning, where do you want to be in that market and then figuring out what you want to say to it. So that to me is what marketing is in a nutshell and why it's important is it helps your business to grow and it helps you to get to where you want to be.
Stephen Drew: Exactly. I, I, I think that really, really makes sense. The more you, we're out there in the online world, the physical world, [00:04:00] and there's a lot of noise out there, isn't it? And we, and we as business owners or, or even your own personal brand, I think half of it is about cutting through that noise. Now, I, I thought it'd be fun to mix it up and, and, and I'm glad that you're brave enough to do it because you While we, while we will touch upon why it's important, I think though, the biggest thing is that people think that they're doing marketing the correct way.
However, there's a lot of mistakes that you can make, and actually they're easy to fix. So in that analogy of the noise, you know, if you're making the mistakes. It's just not cutting through the noise. And so I would like to explore how people can ninja style.
Ayo Abbas: You're
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Ayo Abbas: that.
Stephen Drew: How they can, how they can cut through the noise.
But to do that, we have to identify what the heck everyone's doing that's wrong. And you've seen a [00:05:00] lot of website and we're not going to do names, no naming or shaming, don't
Ayo Abbas: Okay, so I think there is this whole
Stephen Drew: No. However, we're going to learn the lessons and we're going to pass them on to the lovely viewer, the listener, wherever you are, so that they can stop making them.
Now, number one, that you said, Ayo, before this, in your words, is that you think... Number one top mistake that you see is believing that buildings speak for themselves. I would love to know what you mean by this.
Ayo Abbas: architects are really into design and visuals. And you know, telling their story through visuals, which is all great. And basically you're visual creatures. So you understand, you know. This is how we communicate, this is what we do. But it's like, if you don't give people some context, if you don't give people some words, if you don't tell people what they're actually seeing or looking at, then you're kind of leaving it [00:06:00] up to them to kind of interpret it in their own way.
Basically, they could misinterpret it, you know, so I think it's kind of you want to share your story in your way. Um, so you need to use words as well as visuals and they need to complement each other and, you know, tell that story that you want to give. What's your narrative? What's that message you're trying to convey?
So, that whole thing around, well, our buildings speak for themselves. We don't need to do any marketing or just use images. It's like... Images don't say anything, you know, they really don't on their own, and you're leaving that open to someone's own personal interpretation, and that's a risk.
Stephen Drew: Very, very good. I, I, I agree. And also pictures can be misleading. Pictures can, it doesn't, it doesn't showcase the full picture always, or sometimes not even annotated at all. And that's what I
Ayo Abbas: No, and actually, if you look at a picture or I look at a picture, we've all got our own biases, experiences. The way that I would view it would be very different to the way that you would. Just a picture on its own, right? So that's what you're leaving in [00:07:00] people's mind.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Right. So that's the problem. Now, obviously people should get in contact with you to fully solve it. However, to get some snippets to go into the right direction, what should people be thinking about then in terms of images of buildings or how should they start to speak for themselves?
How would you begin that process?
Ayo Abbas: Um, for me, it's about... Kind of storytelling. So understanding, you know, what it is about you or what it is about that visual that you're trying to communicate and also understanding who it is for. Who's your target audience? What they need to know about it? What things, what messages do you need to convey to them?
And really just breaking it down in that way. And then that's what your narrative is. And you can build out your story. And I think it's just understanding that really. And then finding ways to tell that story and what the language and tone of voice that you want to use and that will. Work with that audience.
So it's all about that audience. How do you communicate with them in a language that they will understand? With them [00:08:00] rather than you, which is the hardest part.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. I agree. I mean, I tell you what, because part of the, uh, the architecture social is a website. And if you ever want a hard lesson of reality is to watch someone browse a website and the way you think you go through a project or a webpage or something, soon as you put someone else on, it's very revealing.
Sometimes you, you feel a bit awkward, your people don't understand where they're going, but it's very important. I mean, what do you think about that kind of analogy?
Ayo Abbas: you ever used, there's a tool called like Hotjar and there's a Microsoft Clarity and basically it's like a Not spyware, but it's a way that you record how people are using your website and you just see how the mouse is looking or where they're clicking, where they come in, or you know, what words they're clicking on, where they're expecting more.
And it just tells you so much about how your website is actually used rather than how you think it's used. And I think, I mean, for example, when I redid my website, which we're going to look at later on, one of the things when I, for [00:09:00] my first, you know, first iteration of my website, there was on the services page.
I didn't have actual, kind of, it didn't link to actual service pages like Marketing Consultant and stuff, but people were clicking on it, and that was one of the things I changed when I redid my website, was actually, I created separate pages for the services because people wanted more information. So using those types of tools, you can kind of see.
Basically, you get heat maps of where people are going, where they click, all that kind of stuff. But it's so, so useful for that reason.
Stephen Drew: Very good. And you're right. We will go properly on your website. And I put the link here, which I'll briefly mention is www. abbasmarketing. com. Very cool. We will check it out. Now, if you still got the old hot shower on, you might have some dopey person wondering about, but don't worry, it's just me on the live stream.
So ignore that information. I'm throwing
Ayo Abbas: haven't got it anymore, actually. I've stopped it. But when I was redoing it, that's when I used it.
Stephen Drew: I agree. I used it at the start and there was, there's a, there's [00:10:00] always a, there's a funny, um, there's a funny thing in Hotjar which says the amount of rage quits, you know, which should be close to zero or one percent. And at one point it was five percent. So I'm sorry for all those people that were frustrated with the Architecture Social.
But don't worry, we got there. We're getting there in the end. It's a, it's an ongoing process. Now, On, on the theme of an ongoing process, let's go on to number two, which I can't wait for you to break down because I'm like, wow, I never would have thought of this. So number two was viewing marketing as the coloring department.
Not a strategic professional function. So I'm guessing what you mean in the business, the marketing's in the corner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let them, I don't know,
Ayo Abbas: Play with social media, you know,
Stephen Drew: Yeah, put a little slide on the Instagram, and then when it's all not working, go, What the hell are you bloody doing?! So, okay.
Come [00:11:00] on, tell us what you
Ayo Abbas: So I guess there are many firms that are quite old school and traditional still in our sector, dare I say it. And some people do kind of turn around and go, well, we don't need to do any marketing and kind of view us as being Oh, it's just a young person's thing. It doesn't really matter. It's not actually supporting our business.
And basically like the coloring in department, you know, we'll just give it to them over there. We don't really care. You know, like they just over there making pretty things. And that is so outdated. Some of the marketing teams I work with now are just. Amazing. They're analytical. They're working with business leaders.
They're looking at the numbers. They're looking at the growth. They're using digital to kind of inform their marketing campaigns and they're really, really supporting their business objectives. And I know so many great marketers who are working in that way. And I think any firm that's kind of viewing marketing or socials or digital marketing as that kind of colouring in department, something their niece does over Christmas, whatever, you're missing out.
And I think [00:12:00] that that is the most important part and it's understanding that it can help you as part of the kind of growth engine of your business and really kind of get you firing into and get you where you want to be. So yeah, proper marketing,
Stephen Drew: I, I agree. I agree. And I'll just say, it's never too late to change that though, isn't it? You just start bringing them in, bringing them in, bringing them in. I work... I worked at a large anonymous company before, um, which, which used to do in the recruitment sector. So it's like, okay, but they're differently marketing people.
And when someone came in, you know, they were, it was kind of like insanity before another person comes in. Expecting different results didn't happen, but suddenly they started bringing on board that marketeer, bringing them into the business, you know, the top layer meetings, and then suddenly things were getting done, you know, and the more control in the marketeer would have over the website influence, the better.
You're right. If they just have access to an Instagram channel, that's quite myopic. You have to, you have to look at the full picture of the [00:13:00] business to really amplify the effect, in
Ayo Abbas: Because it will be like, what do you, what's the overall strategy for your Instagram? And how would that feed into your overall objectives for your business? How do you get your audience off Instagram and where you want them to be so you can continue that conversation? So it's, it's looking at that kind of strategic angle of what it is you're trying to achieve.
And that's, that's got to be the key.
Stephen Drew: Got you. Okay. Makes sense. And, and for any marketeers who feel like you're being treated as the color in any department, you should probably leave that company. Have a good old chat with your boss after this. Go like, what the heck am I doing? I really want to make a change. Let me do it. Let me
Ayo Abbas: I do, you know what, I'm also gonna give a shout out as well. We have a network called Buildup, which is a networking committee, uh, networking group just for marketers in the built environment, Marcos people. And so there's a whole network. It's about 600 of us, um, around the, mainly in the UK but also around the world.
We run events for marketers as well, or you know about upskilling getting together so you're not alone.
Stephen Drew: Brilliant. I'll put that in the [00:14:00] description after this. I'll make a, have to make, yes, please send me the link because I'm not as organized as you. So that helps. Brilliant. That's so cool. I'm glad that's there. Okay. We're going through this at a nice pace. I like it. Now, quick interlude. If anyone in the audience in a marketing department or interested in marketing or any questions that come to your mind, feel free to jump in on this live stream.
If not, Just come along for the ride and have a wine. It's no, it's totally cool. No pressure. But if you want to ask me, probably not, or Io a question, well just, yeah, and now's the time. Anyways, moving swiftly on. Number three, which I really, really agree with, is not keeping up to date with the social media platform innovations and new features.
Io, in your opinion, what do you mean by this? Can you expand?
Ayo Abbas: So, um, I think, you know, when you look at [00:15:00] platforms like Instagram and you look at platforms like LinkedIn, they are always changing. They invest, you know, those platforms invest so much money into their development. There's new features coming out all the time. They tend to prioritize, like, they give priority to their new features quite often because they want them to work.
So if you try and adopt them and you try and use them early, you can normally gain some kind of first mover advantage. And I just think a lot of firms are like, this is how we use LinkedIn. Some people still only see it as a recruitment channel, for example, when it's... Far more. Um, you know, this is how we use LinkedIn.
This is how we use Instagram, you know, and the platforms are changing all the time. The algorithm changes, the look and the feel of the platforms, their interfaces change all the time, where stuff is, you know, and the features as well. So I think it's just understanding that. You kind of need to make sure that you're keeping up to date with what's going on and what is working on that particular platform.
Uh, so for [00:16:00] example, if you're on Instagram, which is harder and harder to kind of get visibility for most
Stephen Drew: I agree with that.
Ayo Abbas: And, you know, a lot of practices, if you look at a lot of the kind of people on the platform now who have got like 20, 000 followers upwards in the architecture field, they normally did that a few years ago.
So it was before everyone was on the platform. So that's the thing. It's like, it's hard to get traction now, but. know, so if you're focused on what does my feed look like, or my feed needs to look so beautiful, that's not going to get you, that's not going to get you growth. It's not going to get you more followers, right?
What's going to get you followers now? Videos on Reels, you know.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. I agree.
Ayo Abbas: Stories communicating what your story and your behind the scenes and stuff like that. You know, and using DM strategy, that's where you get the most interaction and engagement. And that's a different way of thinking. And each one of those little kind of areas would need a different approach to them.
So I, and they all need to kind of work together with your overall kind of goals for what you want to achieve as a business. So there is thoughts [00:17:00] behind it, but it's just understanding actually. What's working now on these platforms and it's worth reviewing that say on a quarterly basis to make sure that you are prioritizing the right areas of that platform because it does change.
So, for example, LinkedIn is my baby and that's the one I really love using. But like, you know, LinkedIn newsletters, not many practices. I think, like, I've seen engineers like Bria Harpold have them, for example. They've got great reach right now, you know what I mean, for getting the word out. You know, lives like this work really well.
I mean, you do have to push them more because it does this weird thing where it doesn't show it. But it's just knowing how to use the different functionality on there. I mean, there's audio rooms, which not many people even know exist. So it's just knowing all these different areas and how you can use them to your advantage.
So for me... That's what you need to do is like, what's new on this, uh, platform? What can I try out and see how it works,
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Well said. And wow, I couldn't agree more. I'm glad you said that because I think architectural practices stay in the Instagram [00:18:00] comfort zone. And I think that, as you say, when Reels came out, Instagram wanted a bit of that TikTok pie and the algorithm moved to that and Reels can be amazing. I, I, I collaborated with a very, you know, promising up and come in like architectural marketeer, Sana Tabassum, who does, you know, scale.
One Reel went viral! Woo! Loads of
Ayo Abbas: Well that's exactly it, right? It's, but it's just understanding and, and it's collaborations and trying new things and just being slightly more experi, experimental, you know, let's try and see what's gonna work. And I think we've all gotta try that, I guess a bit more play, right?
Stephen Drew: exactly. And I was gonna say, the truth is, for that one reel up and viral, there's like 20 in the graveyard, which didn't, you know, and that, that will link on to your next point. I'm only gonna jump in one quick, quick, quick thing, because like you, my, I really like LinkedIn. I'm open to more. Fred's you haven't you haven't won me over yet Fred's okay, [00:19:00] but I do like LinkedIn and what I would say is you were right the the mailing list is such an important one everyone should do that the other one to really I think it's really good to um engage the community is polls I try to do one every two to three weeks just one because
Ayo Abbas: I see your polls. I do them as well.
Stephen Drew: Yes, and just keep them open.
It gets people thinking, and there's no wrong answer. Gets the conversation going. Polls and mailing lists. You're right. And you, AudioRoom's so underutilized. Whereas, you know, two years ago, it was all about, what was that platform? Clubhouse! Ooh! You know, it was, it was, it was the cool thing. It was the cool thing.
But the
Ayo Abbas: But that's why they set it up, wasn't it? It was their version of Clubhouse, which, you know. But it's just trial in these new things and seeing, isn't it? And like you say, polls do work really well. Carousels can be quite nice. It's just mixing stuff up and trying
Stephen Drew: Yes, yes. And the last, last, last thing I'll say on it, because it was such a good point, so I, [00:20:00] you know, I wanted to. Focus on
Ayo Abbas: extra things.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's that when the algorithm changes in platforms, don't feel too emotionally attached to them. Cause some people are like, Oh, Instagram's my baby. And I'm like, do you know what?
You gotta just move on. I mean, the Architecture Community Forum was big in 2020 when the pandemic. Busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. However, less people use it right now. And that's okay. But in my business, then I pivot towards the podcast, the live streams, the polls, where people's going. And, and it's not a loss.
You've got to move with things. You can't just stay attached. Yeah. to Instagram because they will change the algorithms and all that stuff and you and also don't just go on one platform because you might, you know, you're putting all your eggs in one basket. I mean, what do you think?
Ayo Abbas: Well, Twitter, or what was Twitter? If that's what all your baskets are, you know, come on, it's just, it's complete, exactly, it's an absolute mess. And so I think that whole thing, and I think the other thing I always talk about is that These platforms are free [00:21:00] to use, right, which therefore means that you are, you're basically, your data is what they're selling, right, in adverts to other people.
And it's their platform, you don't own it, which therefore means that they can change the algorithm or how they use it whenever they want. It's not yours to own. So I think the other thing is like... Using those social media platforms to grow your own list as well. So I would say having some kind of email list and data that sits within your own firm.
And you can start that off really small. You start to have an email list and things like that, that is yours to own. Because if you are completely reliant on social media, like if all your eggs were in the Instagram basket and the algorithm changed, you're like, Oh, my leaves are suddenly dried up. It's like, you need to kind of have a, have some safety there, a safety net for yourself, don't you?
Stephen Drew: Yeah. I agree. And the last, last, last, last, last thing I'll say on it, cause it's so good. It's so good. I think, I don't know what kind of people are on what platforms. So if your, if your business is targeted at homeowners, it might be a bit of the gram. It might be Facebook. I [00:22:00] don't like Facebook that much.
I begrudgingly have it, but you know, for homeowners, conservatories, extensions, that makes more sense. They are not going to be people on LinkedIn. If you're targeting LinkedIn and you're trying to do house conversions, I think you're in the wrong area. However, if you have like got some fancy design or you're targeting a developer that you know is prominent, maybe they're on LinkedIn, you know, that's the place to go.
So know where your market is and clearly define it and chase that as well. And that might change over time, you know, I mean, do you agree with that as well?
Ayo Abbas: completely agree with that. That's totally right. Go where your, go where your audience is. So knowing who you're going for and like you say, homeowners, more likely to be Facebook, even Pinterest, you know, all those types of places, all those different places. Go,
Stephen Drew: Yeah, okay, cool. I've got a quick question before we go on to the next one. We've got a question that's come in, and we can both rack our brains. Okay, so [00:23:00] Anupama says, what are the most commonly used platforms now in the architectural community? In case we missed one off the list. Wow. So, I mean, Anupama. And I will say that because I think there's still a niche.
So like the Architecture Social was quite busy. The forum, I felt it was like bouncing during the pandemic, mainly, you know, people from students up to architects. Now it's a bit quiet. Is there somewhere online? I think, I think LinkedIn is the closest one that I can think of. I mean, there's a few ranting architects on Twitter who just, I don't know, rant about stuff.
Boring.
Ayo Abbas: those ones. Yeah, you know those ones where you're like, I just block them. I don't see them. It's too, it's too
Stephen Drew: no,
Ayo Abbas: It's like, you know, when you're, ugh.
Stephen Drew: I know,
Ayo Abbas: Do
Stephen Drew: but where is it? It's a good question. The truth is, Anupama, I don't really know anymore because my own community is not as active as I'd like. Maybe it'll pick up and I'll look at this in a year or [00:24:00] two, or maybe I need a marketing strategy.
Ayo Abbas: you know what? I, I think the worker is, I think it's a lot more fragmented. And I think that's the issue. Everyone's out. Grab out. And you know, like post, you know, post COVID, everyone's kind of like, I don't want to get out. I don't want to have to do everything online now. Uh, so I think a lot of people are out and about.
And I, for me, I think it's more about, rather than where you are, it's about getting the best of both worlds. So how do you use your digital marketing activity to kind of boost your in person?
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Ayo Abbas: And I think it's that. So if you're going to an event, actually, I'm going to be at London Build next month. Write a post, get that out, see if you can help get set up, you know, like, so you're using the best of both worlds, you're using social media to be social.
And I think that's kind of it. I think it's kind of the way it's being used is changing and I think it's because people are probably, in some ways, slightly pulling back or not as being as active as they were when we were in lockdowns. [00:25:00] So I think it's just finding that way to kind of still get it to support what you're doing
Stephen Drew: I agree. Couldn't
Ayo Abbas: platform wise.
I think it's kind of like TikTok is doing really well for younger people, right? I think it's, you know, and I think it's depends on age group and what people prefer. I like LinkedIn 'cause you know, it's more of a community and you can have good conversations in the comments. Twitter, it's ruined, . Um, what else?
Instagram, if you're not really into reels,
Stephen Drew: yeah.
Ayo Abbas: I, I don't love Instagram
Stephen Drew: And also like, 'cause I, I, you know, the, the use of the word community, I mean, LinkedIn is the closest thing to that, in my opinion, because people can talk back and forth. There's the polls, all this stuff. When I was running a forum, I spent a lot of time thinking about what is a community?
What is that thing? And I think that people fall into this misconception that on, on Instagram, because you have a few follows, it's necessarily a community. I think that's an audience which you can participate. But like you said, I, oh, actually a community is engagement. [00:26:00] It's about back and forth. You know, and,
Ayo Abbas: and you can't do that in Instagram, in the dms. It's a one-to-one conversation. It's not a group conversation.
Stephen Drew: exactly.
Ayo Abbas: that's missing in there. Do you know what I mean? It's not what you use it for. Yeah, I completely agree.
Stephen Drew: so, so Anupama, the reason we don't have a conclusive answer is because it is, as you say, it's blurry, and it moves, and is it in person? Is it online? You know, and where is it? Where's that conversation
Ayo Abbas: But there's also those, I mean, there's also stuff like Reddit, isn't there? Quora, Reddit. All of those types of more underground stuff as well, which I don't go into, but there are people that use those as communities. So, yeah, I don't have an answer. Sorry.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, we'll, we'll see what happens. Who, who knows? Okay. Thank you so much for bringing in that question, by the way. Any other questions? Feel free to ask while we're here. Now, number four, the top five mistakes that people do, number [00:27:00] four on the list is trying a marketing activity once, then saying it doesn't work and giving up too soon.
Okay, spell the anonymous T. Give me an
Ayo Abbas: Right. So, an example. Actually, I'm going to give you one of my examples. So, I wrote a blog, probably. Three and a half years ago, when Corellian went down, when it went out of business, and it was literally about... Construction industry is broken and I basically wrote all the stuff that I thought was wrong with the industry and it went viral and that was like three years ago.
Last year, I got an email from a journalist at the Times who was writing a piece about the construction industry. Model. And my, my, that blog was on page one and I ended up in the Times newspaper with picture quotes. I didn't have to do anything. He literally lifted it from my blog. Now, for me, if I'd given up on blogging and said, Oh, it doesn't always work, don't have the time, all of [00:28:00] that kind of stuff, but it does take time to build.
I mean, that was something I wrote three years ago and I got it out there. And I think that's the thing that people quite often, they just give up too soon. Oh, we tried Instagram, didn't work. Well, maybe you didn't try it in the right way. Maybe you need to warm that audience. Maybe you need to find the right kind of tone of voice or the right images to use.
And I think it's that trial and error and that test and learn. And I think it's acknowledging that good things take time to build. And I mean, I did a post recently on LinkedIn and Instagram, which is around the timelines for different types of marketing. So like, if you want to do SEO, To even start getting like search engine optimization and getting ranked on Google, you know, it's going to take you at least six months to even start to build up any traction.
So it's knowing that type of marketing you're doing and actually what's the timeline for that and giving yourself the space to kind of Try, you know, and do incremental improvements. So I think that's the kind of thing and bearing in mind that a lot of marketing will start to compound over time. So if [00:29:00] you start getting your tone of voice right, you start getting your branding out there, you start talking about the things that you want to be known for, that will start to compound and actually have a snowball effect.
So I think it's about committing to it and then going for it and acknowledging it's not everything happens overnight. Unless you're doing like paid ads, but even that still needs tinkering with, and it still takes time to find the right audience and get them really firing. So,
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Uh, I, I, um, I'll, I'll be honest, I've never dabbled in the paid ads. I do pay for jobs on LinkedIn for the business, um, which is sort of similar, a little bit different. However, you're right, I, you've gotta keep going. And I think YouTube's the greatest example of that. The amount of people I know who've done a YouTube, because YouTube is excruciatingly hard, you know, they all are, but YouTube in particular is really hard.
You've gotta do like a hundred view, uh, video, uh, videos to get anywhere or a
Ayo Abbas: going, right?
Stephen Drew: Yeah, and the podcast, you're right, is keep going. And sometimes I do an [00:30:00] episode and I think, all right, it was good. It was maybe my favorite. I'm not allowed to have like kids, isn't it? They're all great episodes. But what I mean is maybe some episodes connect more with me than
Ayo Abbas: yeah, yeah.
Stephen Drew: someone could really love it and you could get an engagement from that. Or, you know, and also it's about, like you said, it's the compound effect. It's not about one. Podcast episodes, but the bulk of work and they appreciate over time because also as you quite correctly said search engine optimization.
I hate it, but love it because it's so important. It's needed and it's the same concept because the more pages you have. The more things online, and then Google over time, what it does is that it identifies you as an authority. And because
Ayo Abbas: And that builds. Your domain ranking builds.
Stephen Drew: yeah, and then it starts trusting you more, and it's because you've got loads of stuff.
So, I have a big thing of getting it [00:31:00] out then, you know. Do some of the Architecture Social podcasts at the start. Go, you know, do I like them? Maybe my opinions change. But I don't look back. And I think it's about going forward and it's about a process. You have to keep going. And the last thing I'd say on it before we'll get back up to yourself is that I think architects can get in their own way of being perfectionist.
They just get, you know, um, and ah, about the details. And in the end, they don't put the thing out there and that's because architects are amazing. And I agree that, however, we just need to get it out there because sometimes when you wait in for things to be perfect, you know, as you said, it takes six months to even be recognized on Google free if you're lucky, whatever.
But the more you faffing around with it, that could be time that Google is identifying you and then you improve it. You know, if I look at the first Architecture Social logo, it's a pile of rubbish. But you kind of, you, you, you [00:32:00] change it, don't you?
Ayo Abbas: But you got it out there. And that's the thing. You got it out there. I mean, I'm kind of like, you know, sometimes when people do that whole thing around designing in public, I think, you know, like when they're building software, and they're actually like, you know, this is what we're building, this is our prototype, and they get the rough thing out there, so that people look at it, you know, it's not being done in isolation.
I kind of think in some ways, With some aspects of marketing, actually, sometimes just starting is good.
Stephen Drew: I, I agree. You laugh. I don't even practice my, sometimes I just release my website as is. It does crash now and then, but you know what? You're going to break the rules. I'm not a professional like yourself. Maybe you'd be reining me in where some people need to push out, you know, um,
Ayo Abbas: Yeah, with you I'd probably be like, oh my gosh.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, get Steve away from the release button. Spell check it again. He's been editing it. I can see. Oh, I,
Ayo Abbas: I lost it. You lost attention there. Sorry, you can just tell.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, doesn't know what he's talking about. [00:33:00] worry. I agree with you. However, someone does think we know what we're talking about. Hooray! And a partner says, thank you both for the good advice. She says that, um, in terms of a business, maybe we're underutilizing LinkedIn, to be honest, but great ideas.
Yeah. Yes, do check out LinkedIn. It is good. And the last thing I'd say on LinkedIn is that they are spending a lot of time, effort. I was on their content creator program. They are
Ayo Abbas: jealous.
Stephen Drew: yeah, you could, should do it. I mean, I really, I thought it was really useful and I learned a lot from it. And I could see where they want to take it, and they want to bring that into LinkedIn.
You know, the platform's a lot less stuffy than, um, than people believe. I think it's really the way to go, and it was a, it was a good, it was a good, it was a good course to be on. And they paid me.
Ayo Abbas: on it. I know. And I was like, damn it. I didn't, I didn't apply when I saw, you know, when you're like, oh, I should [00:34:00] have done that.
Stephen Drew: Oh, it was good. I really recommend everyone check it out. And, and if someone's like, I don't have a clue what Steve's talking about is, um, the LinkedIn content creators course pops up, I think twice a year, you have to do a video on it. And mine was loud and proud like this going, well, I'm going to talk about the Metaverse.
And then they, uh, then. Yeah, and then, and then I got in somehow, so if I can do it, you definitely can, you know, and it's open to everyone and all
Ayo Abbas: is.
Stephen Drew: Don't worry about how many followers you got or whatever. There are people on the course that were just starting as well as like some mega celebrities and stuff, you
Ayo Abbas: Yeah. And yeah, I saw that. It was, it looked really rad. Like the levels were very, very different and I saw quite a few people on it, but also, I mean, what's great about it is that you would hear it, hear it from the horse's mouth, which is the thing that you want is to kind of understand where they're going as platform, which I think is fascinating.
So, yeah.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, they were really, really good. So I recommend checking out that. [00:35:00] Now the last point, but certainly not the least was number five of your top five tips of like mess ups in architectural marketing. And number five was expecting marketing unicorns. One person can't do everything.
Ayo Abbas: So there is that whole thing, isn't there, of like a generalist marketer or a specialist. So for example, me, I am a generalist. I, you know, I work across marketing. I can kind of, you know, I have areas in which I'm especially, I specialize more. So like I like writing copy and create content, stuff like that.
But can I do everything? Am I an expert at SEO? No, but I might know the basics. Am I expert at PR? Know a bit, because I started off in PR, but am I an expert? You know, like, so it's kind of like understanding that marketing, you know, we have a kind of, we all have different skill sets. So understanding what skill sets you need for, in particular, not trying to write job specifications when you're looking to hire a marketer in house, that kind of are seven roles wrapped in one, which some [00:36:00] of the ones I have seen are.
So, you know, like when they're like, you have to do PR, you need to be able to do comms, you need to do crisis comms, C o and like literally you need to work on bids and like, you're just like so many different things when, and that's when you are standing there going, that's when you are setting a marketer up to fail.
And that, that is when you will turn around and go, well, marketing doesn't work very well, does it? Well, if you're kind of not understanding how to write a job spec properly or, or what skills you need or, and all of that kind of stuff, or how to build a marketing team, then that is where the issue lies. So for me, Marketing unicorns and inspections to be able to do everything from, you know, being great on like making reels and video, video editing to, you know, doing a bid.
You know, let's be honest, one person doesn't have all of those skills. So I think it's about, you know, writing job specs and roles that are actually achievable. And also realizing that we all have different areas of specialization, even as a generalist. And recognizing those skill sets and [00:37:00] staffing accordingly.
Stephen Drew: yeah, I agree. That's really well said. And I think, you know what, while that's really important for marketing, I think that can be applied across the board. I think, I think, I think as a person, if you have a wider skill stack, that is great, but you're right. When you have a wider skill stack, that's the definition.
It's wide and typically it won't be high on everything. You might have an area of expertise and, and some little, and, and, and you're right. I mean, I squirmed when you said bid documents, cause the moment that goes onto a job spec, that's all that person will be
Ayo Abbas: You're swallowed, your time's gone. And then they'll be like, but you haven't updated the website. Well, when?
Stephen Drew: Yeah, when, when, when the design director is screaming at me that the brochure needs to change and that, that, that do in London want to appreciate that page, you know, so it's, it's a very nuanced thing, a bit, a bit, so just a completely different world, but okay.
So those are really useful. So we, we, we've done the, the, [00:38:00] the top five. So first of all, there's a little round of applause for that. Well done. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. If, if I had my, plug my soundboard in, I, then I would, I would do it. But you know, you get, you get the real bell. Now,
Ayo Abbas: it's good.
Stephen Drew: you know, it's classic.
It's all, you know, we don't need all those tricks
Ayo Abbas: quite understated, a bit like me. I like it.
Stephen Drew: Oh, brilliant. I'm glad you do. Now you touched upon a bit, you getting in the industry and stuff as well. Cause it's the two sides to this, this podcast, I think. So this was useful for business owners. And even though we talked about it for business, I think that you could apply a lot of this stuff, even if you are a professional, because.
We're talking about brands here, we're talking about platforms, we're talking about um, concepts which can be applied to every, everyone, especially like I think this point number three, you should just be doing that with your own personal brand anyways. However, yeah, but how, tell me about [00:39:00] yourself though, because I get a lot of people, right, who do architecture.
Kind of wanted to go into marketing, fall into marketing, love marketing, have a passion for it. So do you want to run me a little bit through a little bit about your career and then what you enjoy about what your role is now?
Ayo Abbas: So, um, yeah, so I actually, um, how did I fall into it? So I am, I've got a business degree with a marketing specialism, um, and I graduated in 2001, which shows my age, but, um, my first job was actually working in construction PR. So I worked for. Um, uh, agency and I was in the PR team and I, I was writing and promoting, uh, building products.
So things like lighting, carpets, tiles, bricks, um, to architects and contractors. So that was my job for three years, was to do that. And then kind of once I left there, [00:40:00] because I really couldn't go to more parties or get any more drunker, um, I need to use my brain more as well. So, um, I actually went in house and I started working for engineering firms.
So, I worked for a small one and then I ended up at a large one like Arrow. I kind of moved around. So, that's kind of how I ended up in the sector.
Stephen Drew: Wow. Okay. Very cool. I love it. And so you've done the bricks. You've done, you've done the big buildings. It's the, it's the, it's the large scale to the small scale. So, I mean, I think, I think that says a lot and I love how that one little keyword with a specialism in marketing then leads you on onto the career.
That's very true. I get though, a lot of people asking about how they go into marketing and all that stuff. If you were to speak to someone now that wants to get into marketing, do you have a little bit of advice that you would normally say to a person about You know, how you get into it, or who's it really for, um,
Ayo Abbas: To be honest, I [00:41:00] think, if we're honest, if you want to go up, if you want to go up in your career, in a practice, if you get involved in marketing and that beady side and client, client relationships. You are putting yourself on the front foot. So, for me, it's more about being keen. Shadowing some of your senior leaders, you know, when they go out networking, what they're doing, you know, and if you've got an interest in social media, then actually trying it out yourself, you can be, you can be the guinea pig, as it were, try that on your, out on your own profiles, and then see what you can do and find your voice.
I'm all for people in house, finding their own voice, and you know, the things that really they're passionate about and sharing about, because all of a sudden, if you start, You know, building up some kind of following or profile online, your directors will see that people are actually seeing you as a thought leader and also start to consider you in a different light as well.
So for me, it's, I guess, showing keenness, right? And then, you know, I'm interested in that. I'd like to go networking with you and just kind of learning the ropes and [00:42:00] how it works, what's important. And also most importantly, those client relationships. You have those, everyone will want you in their marketing team.
Stephen Drew: yeah. It's, it's the hardest thing, but also the most rewarding thing is, is client relations. I mean, I, I, We touched upon earlier, I do recruitment. My goodness, if there's ever a person that doesn't need a recruitment consultant, it's someone that has a lot of relationships with clients because they literally, if a good, if you do a good job, a client will typically follow you wherever you go.
Therefore, it's, it's goes the other way around where. You're no longer trying to get an interview. You're interviewing the company and the company will usually want you for what you're worth, but with all the business that you can bring. So that is something to think about. Doesn't happen straight away when I was a part two, barely knew anyone.
It takes a bit of time. But it's doable, isn't it? And it is uncomfortable though. I, [00:43:00] I'll be the first to admit, you know, client facing at the start. It's scary, isn't it? Because it's the client.
Ayo Abbas: yeah. Yeah, it is. And then you're like, you know, and that's it. But I think it's a skill that we all have to learn. And I think, you know, and that's the thing, once you have that, though, it's just so valuable. And it will take you throughout your career, wherever you end up.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree. And the, and the last thing that I'd add to that is that I think that initially you can get enamored by the client. You know, but actually, you should, you should respect the client, treat them as an equal, you know, and you are, you are, you offer a value to the client to solve a particular set of problems you have, and you need them to listen to you, otherwise they'll just walk all over you, um, or not use you.
And there's, I, I'm a big believer in, of course you want to be pleasant. I, I'm a big believer that you should never put anyone down, should treat everyone with respect. But I, I read something and it really made me think, and it's that, um, not [00:44:00] always a client has to like you to use you. They just have to think you're the best person for the job.
I think being liked, nice and liked is a bonus. However, if you're the best person and you have their interest and they believe you're skilled. They'll still pick you,
Ayo Abbas: They will. They will. Because it's about them. It's what they need.
Stephen Drew: yeah, and bonus last one that I think that sometimes people go, Oh, I'll, I'll chop my fees. That's an architecture thing, isn't it? We'll lower it down to be more competitive and sometimes cheap is cheap and do as everyone went cheap, you know, and, and, and that's the other thing we have to learn. That's the other thing that we have to, we have to embrace, you know, my rates per hour have gone up this year.
So should yours. You're worth more. And, uh, that's what I believe. If I'm putting it up, you should be putting it up. Why shouldn't you? And that, and I think that's the psychology that we should be having. Not, oh my [00:45:00] goodness, it's tough at the moment. Let me cut my prices. Because cutting your prices is cutting the quality of the work sometimes.
I mean,
Ayo Abbas: the only person you're doing out of it is yourself. It's the only person you're really harming, isn't it? Yeah. But it's also like building that brand so that you, you know, and you believing in your own brand, that you're worth that value. You know what I mean? That psychology is in there as well.
Stephen Drew: yes, and I think once you get that in the head and it permeates through you, the better you will be with as well and, and it's, you know, charge what you're worth. And that's, that's, that's what I believe. Okay, I'm going to stop because I got to be careful I don't go on a mini tangent about that. So now it's your turn to, I tell you what, you can throw a curveball tangent in whatever direction you want.
Before we talk about your website, before we talk about where people can find you and why they should use you, which they should, if you've got any questions for me,
Ayo Abbas: I was going to say, as it was your birthday [00:46:00] yesterday, what did you do?
Stephen Drew: Oh my God. My sister came down on the weekend, so we all went out, we did a crazy one. So I was a bit boring yesterday. I just stayed at home, did a little bit of work, did a little bit of marketing, not too much, chilled out and enjoyed it. But last Friday, don't feel sorry for everyone, because I went on the
Ayo Abbas: going to say, how long did it take you to recover?
Stephen Drew: Good day that well, I was out Friday. I was out Saturday and then Sunday I
Ayo Abbas: I thought you were
Stephen Drew: out chilled out got it got an infection. That sounds so dodgy
Ayo Abbas: you better explain that.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, that sounds so bad. Okay. Do you have any professional questions for me?
Ayo Abbas: Stay there.
Stephen Drew: You know, all that big talk about my rate going up, it's just suddenly gone down 50% 'cause of what I said and I'm like, there you go. Do you know what we're, we're in, we're in a post pandemic world. There's [00:47:00] stuff out there, what you want from me, I'm at home in my bubble now. Right. Okay, cool. Alright. Wow.
You, I thought you were gonna come in a curve ball about recruitment or whatever, or,
Ayo Abbas: Oh no.
Stephen Drew: singer. Now, that's just, that's boring chat, isn't it? God, we don't want none of
Ayo Abbas: I haven't done that.
Stephen Drew: No, we don't want none of that. Okay, my health aside, let's talk about something healthy, such as your business offering.
So, I'm going to bring up your beautiful website now. However, Tell us about your business and tell us what you're up to and tell us why people should get in contact with you.
Ayo Abbas: Right, so I am Ayo Abbas and I'm a marketing consultant who specialises in working with Engineers and Architects is what I do. It's what I love. Um, I am currently kind of pivoting slightly. So I'm kind of moving towards doing more content creation. Uh, so that's going to be things like helping people set up podcasts, [00:48:00] um, creating amazing kind of campaigns and content.
Yeah, I am. And also I'm doing more kind of speaking and supporting like... Speaking at events and things like that, but also training as well. So I'm going to start doing, uh, masterclasses for people, um, on different topics that, uh, I'll do some low cost ones and I'll also do corporate training. So I'm kind of pivoting what I'm doing and I'll still do things like, uh, consultancy, kind of advisory power hours as well.
So it's all, I'm in transition at the moment. So my website is changing.
Stephen Drew: I love it as well. And also tell me about your podcast. I want to hear all about it.
Ayo Abbas: So I have a podcast which I set up in July 2020, uh, which is on... Episode 55 is out this Friday. So it is called the Built Environment Marketing Show. Uh, basically I interview people from the industry, um, and we talk about marketing from strategy, digital channels, what's [00:49:00] going on, and basically I find people whose stuff I really love.
So I do honestly fangirl. So like on Friday, um, it's going to be Hawley who've got beautiful marketing content. Uh, and so chatting to them. So, um, yeah, that's what I do. So I've got my own podcast show as well. So you can find that in Apple and everywhere else.
Stephen Drew: Brilliant. And okay, so before you read out the website name, Lola in the audience says, content creating sounds interesting. What sorts of topics are you looking to tackle?
Ayo Abbas: So for me, I mean, I enjoy, um, creating content. So for example, I am working with people who want to develop their own podcasts. Um, so helping them set them up. Get guests, you know, all of the stuff. So they start to get that out there. I'm also, I also love writing as well. So I might be working with people on a campaign on a particular theme where I interview business leaders and I help support their marketing team to get content out there.
Um, so yeah, that's, that's kind of content creation that I love. So yeah,
Stephen Drew: Fabulous. Now, [00:50:00] if someone wants to get in contact, where can they find you and what is the website?
Ayo Abbas: so website is AbasMarketing, which is A double B A S marketing. com. Uh, you can find loads of stuff there, blogs, lots of kind of cool stuff on there. Um, and best place to contact me tends to be on LinkedIn, where I am most days. So literally just follow and I will connect with you.
Stephen Drew: Knocking around with me. There you go. It's the place to be until there's somewhere else. Maybe we'll look back at this and we'll think, my goodness, LinkedIn was, you know, was the one. Now it's changed. Although I suspect that they will just get bigger and bigger and bigger, especially after going behind the scenes with them.
But Ayo, you've been such a pleasure. I really, really enjoy you being here and everyone should check out your, um, your services and get in contact and say hello. And thank you for everyone in the [00:51:00] audience that gave us questions. I really appreciate it. And on that note, I will be ending the live stream.
Thank you so much for being here. It keeps, keeps me, I don't know, excited. It breaks up all my day. I love it. I do have a. Busy podcast week next week, but for the life of me, I can't remember what they are other than I looked at my diary on Monday. I went, okay, one of the two of these will be as good as this episode.
So I promise you they will be really, really good. Thank you so much again for being here to my lovely guests and we will see you next time. I'm going to end the live stream. I will stay on the stage. Thank you everyone. Have a good night. Take care. Bye bye.