From Humble Beginnings to Architectural Success: A Journey with Petr Esposito of Thirdway Architecture

0016 - Petr Esposito - Founding Director of Thirdway Architecture
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, I am Stephen Drew from the Architecture Social and I am here with Peter from Third Way Architecture. Oh, Peter. Hello. How are you?

Petr Esposito: I'm good. I'm very good. How are you doing? Yeah, I

Stephen Drew: could hear myself in the background there, have you not set up properly for this professional podcast?

Petr Esposito: I've really, I, yeah, I've fucked up and I haven't got all the services right.

It's just my dodgy laptop speaker and that's it, so you're stuck with my echo.

Stephen Drew: All right, okay we'll make do. We'll see how it goes, but Dodgy, you're doing so well, you can afford a PC, right?

Petr Esposito: You've got to be mindful of the times, let's not do, start spending everything. We've just got to be a little bit careful.

Stephen Drew: Do you know what? My friend sent me on WhatsApp, I think Mayor of London's going to lock it down, Peter, so I can see that you're in your office [00:01:00] right now. Just saying. Yeah. Yeah. That's going to be announced this evening, so make sure you get home early. Walk that dog. I've got

Petr Esposito: to walk that dog because the idiot needs to be walked.

But yeah I think I can't do work from home all the time. It's got to be, I've got to be in the office. I've got to be seeing people. I've got to be seeing things, staring at a blank wall. Eight hours a day, five days a week. six days a week sometimes. I can't suffice it. Can't do

Stephen Drew: it. It's difficult.

And for, so for a bit of context for anyone, so Peter, you are a director with Liam of Third Way Architecture, which is, in my opinion, is a really successful architecture practice. And I did listen to you business, see, I did, like I told you before, I did research. And business architecture, it was really good.

It was really good. And I agree that actually, The one interesting thing about third way architecture is it does feel like it's been going a lot longer than three years. The projects are really great. So there you go. You got genuine compliment from me. You didn't [00:02:00] expect that. I really like them.

They're amazing. And I'm like, how have you rolled this up in, in three years? Are you just, have you got the secret recipe to architecture or is it a lot of hard work?

Petr Esposito: We took a punt. I think there's it's, we're not going to pretend to say that we we earn in every right, but we did take a punt.

I think we'd be really lucky because we were working at a previous practice together at MAPS. We were there for, I'll say five, ten years. 3 4 years, and Liam was there for 7, and we don't want to be 40 and being a young architecture practice, we want to get on with it, because it's just so slow, and architecture is so bloody stuffy and actually there was an opportunity to do something else, and we ended up doing a JV with 3rdWay Interiors, which is design and build, which everyone thinks is like the dark author designs yeah.

Stephen Drew: Okay, one second. JV. Use the jargon. What's JV?

Petr Esposito: Joint Venture. Doing a Joint Venture with Okay. Doing a Joint Venture with 3rdWay Interiors. And like in traditional architecture school, they don't like design and build because I think it's naff, I think it's just money led and don't go there. And [00:03:00] actually it turns out they were bloody good.

They were really excited, knew what they're doing, great designers. They smashed out the park. And we're like actually in six months, we went from concept to design and finished building rather than the other building I was working on, which took three years. So we'll have a bit of that. And the other bit is, because it's actually such a small industry, that my brother is best friends with the creative director of Third Way Interiors.

So we've got the, we've got the dreams going and the conversation flowing.

Stephen Drew: And a chance.

Petr Esposito: And yeah, and one thing led to another not quite a one night stand, but turned into something much more fruitful. Very fruitful. And we ended up buying Third Way Architecture, the back of it. So We got invited to set up the business and it sits under an umbrella group.

So there's third or a group is the parent company, and they've got loads of subsidiary other businesses. And then we architected one of them. So we went from, we started in 2017 as two, two people. And then we quickly turned into, we're now 24. So not too shabby.

Stephen Drew: Okay, it's, and [00:04:00] so if anyone wants to write down the blueprint of how to do third world architecture, they can listen to the Business of Architecture where you give away all your trade secrets.

Yeah, that was

Petr Esposito: it. I wanted to give it all away to make sure that we suffer as much as possible, yeah.

Stephen Drew: Come on, you're doing well. You're not suffering. It's a good building, right? It's good. It's good. It's very good. It's all good. I love it. And So that podcast, it's a good podcast anyway, and that was a nice episode.

It talks a lot about the business, your approach, and everything like that. So there's a few things going on here because I actually, I did a similar thing. I worked for Bespoke Careers, so they're a big recruitment company, good recruitment company. And I had something similar when I was 26 and I went, you know what?

Do you know what? I'm going to go and set up a recruitment business, da. And I didn't think about it too much. I set off with someone else at the time and we were like best buddies going to conquer the world. And then you get there. And the reality was, it was me in front of a white desk with a phone and we're like, okay, we've got to do it now.

And there was that moment and you just [00:05:00] think, okay, we're here. Did you feel a similar thing when you set up?

Petr Esposito: Yeah, there was Massively, and I think Liam won't ever let it down, that he's of the position that I actually turned it down. Which I don't believe and I don't remember at all. But he's can you imagine if you were, turned it down and, it would be awful, to think about that.

But I, where it started off is that we had Christmas drinks at Third Way's old office with Rob Calder. And that's where the kind of conversation started and we text Benny to CEO. Do you fancy it? She's yeah, give it a whirl. It's pretty easy as that.

But then it comes down to the, we've asked, we've said yes. And now it's actually, do we jump, do we jump and try and swim this or do we just drown and die? And then you're like, Oh, is it right? It's even us, we're going, Oh, it's design and growth. Everyone tells us it's bad.

And everyone tells us that, you should be doing your own thing. You've got to set up your own company. And actually, there's a lot of naysayers, and I don't know if it's because it was something slightly different. We are, we have set out something slightly different, because [00:06:00] we're working very closely with other companies, we're under the same grid we get more opportunity, and that's why it's so exciting.

And what the real ambition for me and Liam was, We didn't want to have just a whole load of concept work, a whole load of like competitions that we didn't win because we were so young and just, run the treadmill for the next five years and then eventually get a big break.

What was really great for us was that they had loads of they kept telling us they've got loads of existing clients and we should be able to win some work. So on that merit, it's okay, let's say it didn't work. We had two years of giving it a whirl. And actually we went back into the, to the wrap line.

It's That was a good laugh. That was solid. I'll take that. And we'll just go again somewhere else. So actually on the risk level, we were both, obviously three years younger, easy maps. And actually by that point we were young enough to say that it wouldn't have been a waste of time and we can just go back into our, what we thought was our more traditional trajectory of our careers.

So That was an easy kind of, option for us. And we took a punt and it's come out, not too shabby.

Stephen Drew: I think it is. I think it's great. I agree that. So for, [00:07:00] I run that business for two and a half years in the end, we both went our separate ways. I learned so much that you do learn so much and there is something about being thrown into the deep end where the amount of times I've messed up or the amount of times I got things wrong and you never make the same mistake again.

And I think it toughens you up because I always joke that it take a lot to really, once you run your own business, when you go into practice, because what I do now is I'm, I basically, I lead the architecture team. In a large company, which has certain parallels to what Third Way does, because what I like about McDonald's company is I'm given complete autonomy to do what I want, provided that I get stuff over the line or things are going in the right way, but I can there's a complete free reign that I would never have anywhere else.

Who else would let me go online? Honking a horn everywhere, right?

Petr Esposito: I think that's exactly it. I don't regret for one second what the decision me and Liam took. It's been absolutely [00:08:00] mad. The opportunity we had, I've been mad. We have no right to be the size of practice, how that we are doing the size of work that we are with the amount of clients that we do.

That's not anything to do with like our skillset. We've just been really. really lucky. We had an opportunity, we took it. And then I think the other side of it, which has been actually mental good, is that we had loads of good friends and colleagues, good friends or colleagues we used to work with from other practices, from the likes of DMFK, from Peercy Co, from Allies on Mars, that thought, yeah, I'll have a bit of that.

I'll, I will join you guys and we'll get stuck in because we want to offer the opportunity for people to come You know, lead designs, work with clients directly, be on site, really take charge, give them the autonomy that we didn't necessarily have a previous practices also with a responsibility, going to make sure you step up and deliver, but it's that excitement, that, that exposure to things that, Typically, you might not get in a larger practice or doing sort of commercial buildings like we do.

And that's where it's been brilliant. Don't get me wrong. There's been [00:09:00] some difficult conversations, challenging times. Some late nights, some very anxious days, and that happens. It's not going to be like a free ride every day, every week. And so there's that nice balance between, Yeah, I've got a deadline for a competition at five o'clock today.

It's on the back of my head. I've got, all right. Have you? Yeah. And

Stephen Drew: you're speaking to me. That went wrong, didn't

Petr Esposito: it? I've got, not going to miss an appointment at the same time. It's just, you always got something rolling in the back of your head about what's going to be where and what's going to be submitted.

You've got to make sure that, the company runs and you're winning work, exposing yourself and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, but it's a good laugh, isn't it? It's great. It's running a business and you're drawing buildings and then someone builds them, which is mental to me. I still can't get over the fact that we've looked at over 210 buildings since we started the business.

We've got 70 live jobs of which, eight are cut and carved complete already, that, That is, that's sound. I'll take that as a good career.

Stephen Drew: I think [00:10:00] you've done well. I quite liked when I was listening, and I think you hit the nail on the head. So you, from admiring companies like PC and Co and Buckley Gray, and then going up against them and occasionally losing and then winning there, there's quite a nice feeling to that in a sportsman way.

And it's a little bit like I have it sometimes in what my role does of having worked at Bespoke, which is well regarded as. arguably the leader in architectural recruitment, when you beat them on the job in a fair and competitive way, in almost like a gentleman's sport, there's something quite nice about it, something rewarding, there's a little twinkle in your eye, and then of course it's real life, you might lose one after or what have you, but to be, to go and be in the same realms of you look up to or quote, unquote, real companies, that thing of you're like they're real architects for practice, and imposter syndrome kicks in sometimes going, that must be a nice feeling, right?

A bit surreal though?

Petr Esposito: That's, that is, it is a [00:11:00] great feeling but it's, again, it's, to really reiterate the point that, it's not me or Liam doing it, just got it's actually seeing the guys in the team absolutely smash it. And when they get going, we're like we pitch pretty well all the time, but when they pitch, like when the car's on the table and they go hard at it, it's like, fucking hell, that is a scorcher and then you're seeing, sometimes you get wind of what else, what someone else has pitched at the moment where we're up against DMFK on a particular project.

And it's The feedback we've had is, ours is the best pitch, ours is actually a stronger design, this is, these are sublime practices, and I think the architects in the team on that particular pitch was Chelsea Rashti, he used to work at Pearson Code, she's led it, she's a, I think, two, three year qualified architect, he's on a design against DMFK,

Stephen Drew: yeah,

Petr Esposito: That's strong. I think, see, I've said before we've lost against Gensler, we've lost against Pearson Co, and we've lost numerous times against BGY, which does my head in. But they were an exceptional practice, so I don't hate it, it's just [00:12:00] ah, yeah. I really wish, I was on the other side of the wind table every now and then, but having said that, the more and more that we're getting ourselves exposed, the more and more that we're having opportunities, we find ourselves in a position where we have beat like Stephen Trevelyan, we have beat GPAD, we have beat, um, Pearson Co we have, we're coming up against Gensler, we're coming up against Shepard Robson, but this is not because I want to be victorious over these guys, actually it's a real privilege to be benchmarking, near to these, near to them, and we don't take that as for for granted, it's, we're just really lucky and we're really privileged that we get to pitch on these types of buildings.

Stephen Drew: I think you you hit the nail on the head as well, though, on your website, what have you got? You got that interesting quote of yours the strength of the wolf is the pack.

Petr Esposito: The wolf is the pack, the strength of the pack. Yeah, I need to put on my,

Stephen Drew: yeah, my movie. The strength of the wolf is in the pack.

I love it, right? But it's true. You can only do so much and there is that weird and wonderful thing about running a business where [00:13:00] sometimes the biggest excitement and sometimes the biggest headache is juggling all the spinning plates of people, as in the value when you get someone on your team who's kicking ass, taking names, helping you cross the line, doing the competition while you're talking to the Welsh guy on the podcast in the other room, making sure that everything's going ahead. That's the people you want. And when you have them, it really helps push the practice forward. And you need to hold on to those people. So you've, I bet you've built up a nice, fantastic team.

I'm guessing, right?

Petr Esposito: Yeah, we, again we've been really lucky with the architects and designers that we work with. I think it's, and it comes with what we're trying to offer, and we're not perfect, we don't ever pretend that we get everything right every time, but what we're trying to offer is, you want to design, you want to lead on those projects.

Here's the autonomy to go and do that. But the flip side is, here's the responsibility. I think a lot of people are I [00:14:00] want all the autonomy to go and do the design, speak to clients, da. But actually, they're like really fearful of actually what that means in terms of responsibility and what that means for the client.

Listen to some of the other podcasts about that imposter syndrome creeping in about whether they feel they're good enough to do that. Can they take responsibility to do that? Am I a good enough designer to like pitch on these things? And it's that kind of that constant balance between exposing people more and more.

One of the first things that me and Liam learned, especially as a director of the business, is that we were like, Oh, we had no autonomy. We're rubbish. We can do anything. And we'll give it to you. You can do anything. Go crazy on these designs. It's mad. And actually the feedback was no. Yeah, that's great and all, but we want some structure too.

We want some feedback. We want some critical feedback about am I doing this right? Am I passing certain thresholds? Is this going, am I going in the right direction? And actually that was quite, because we didn't have anything in the old practice about that sense of kind of complete autonomy. We went the other way.

And actually it's finding that balance where some people, more senior, more experienced can go on those journeys for themselves. We can check in every now and then. [00:15:00] Yeah. Whereas maybe some of the junior members of the team that again, have got all the expertise of all the vigor and the creativity to be amazing.

They just need a bit more structure, a bit more guidance to help them be epic. And I think that's where we're learning that each individual kind of has their own nuances about how they learn, about how they best perform. Not everyone's like this big, extroverted, epic designer, and they're going to set the world on fire.

with OneDrawing. In there somewhere, there are some magic ideas and some really beautiful, moments that will, eventually eke out. Just working with those people to find that and give them the confidence that they can be vulnerable with us and vulnerable with the clients, and say, Look, I've got this design, I've got this idea.

What do you think? And even when the client goes, I ate it. Go away you're fired. The Actually, it was a good idea. They just say they didn't like it, or maybe we could have tweaked it next time, and re engaging and finding ways to support and and suffer the losses together. Show, but also be clear about, Hey, you didn't do it, You didn't step up.

You have to take [00:16:00] responsibility for some of that burden, it's not over. It's just we've got to find a way of learning and bring it back in. So it's that push and pull, give and take and it's not a very, it's not a smooth ride at all.

Everlasting peaks and troughs of practice, of individual practice, of group practice. And that you're constantly having those dialogues with the team, I think. And that's, I forgot the point of your question, I've gone on a tangent. Yeah, you're just

Stephen Drew: saying what a good, basically what the kind of person that makes up the magic of third world architecture and what you look for.

So my other question, which which leads off to that How do you find Peter? When you're interviewing people because you've seen two sides of the coins now, right? So you've been that part one, all nervous, looking for a job Oh, hello. And the feeling it's absolute nightmare, isn't it?

You're like, Oh, please, can I have an opportunity? Thank you very much. And then you, so you've done that. And then, you've done your part two. And so now you're on the other side of the table. You're the you're the wolf, so they speak in the analogy of this. But what do [00:17:00] you look for in an interview?

What kind of catches your eye? In terms of when you're interviewing someone, is it personality or work or? Yeah, I think

Petr Esposito: The personality thing is massive and that's not to say you have to be a big extrovert because I don't want anyone thinking I've got to be loud and proud and all this, it's actually, you can be soft, you can be gentle, you can you don't have to know all the answers but it's it's about sharing ideas with those that you're interviewing with.

We've had some really excellent portfolios come through, what people produce in their BA and MA work, but the, and it's, I'm speaking maybe out of turn here, but at the larger architecture schools, the more established ones, there is an ego that comes with that. They're like,

Stephen Drew: you

Petr Esposito: know, you're going to hire me because I'm that good.

So wait, let's just, pause a bit, because the quality of work is one thing. Your ability to be a team player is something completely else. And we've taken a bit of a line from the CEO, Ben Giller. Which is, we don't seek to go and hire the most qualified person, per [00:18:00] se, in the traditional sense, they've got a first from the top ten architecture schools in the UK.

Actually, we want to find the best person for third way as a group, that would, really be Onboard into our company culture, they can see the advantages of being in a big family really, that's how it's operated. Even though, it's 220 people across the group, we're 24, but it is a big family.

We look after each other, we try and engage each other, we have fun with each other, we wind each other up. But, that's what That's more important that you go through the highs and lows together. So if someone's coming to the board and saying, I want the best things and sliced bread, it's hold on a second.

We want people to support us, support, projects with us and lead elements with us. And I think I've had more fun with people that are engaged and they want to tell stories, they're inquisitive. Don't, and again, I don't feel like you have to ask a question. It's oh, the best thing you can do is ask a question at the end.

Don't worry about it. It's fine. Send me a tweet. It's fine. It's it doesn't, [00:19:00] how can you be an honest person? And I, the reason I encourage that is also it's really important for the interviewee to know that the company is not right for them. I know it's, we're in an even worse, we're in an economic downturn, jobs are going to be really hard to come by, the RIBA are publishing more and more job losses.

But you still have to have a sense that you're in control somewhere, you are not at the behest of employees, we want you, not the other way around, we need great talent. And I think being honest in the best way that you can, because it's not easy being honest, it's actually very hard to be yourself because you want to put on a character.

I'm putting on a character now. You have to find a way of being vulnerable, being honest, because then they can see the real you, and hopefully you can see the real them, and hopefully you can decide what you want to do. All right, actually, maybe it's not right for me. Maybe the company culture is too outlandish, it's too extroverted, or vice versa, that should be quite quiet and quite dour, and it's too traditional and then both parties, both interlocutor and [00:20:00] interviewee, can have a real sense, and I think you're going to get better opportunities, because then, They're not just judging you on a beautiful drawing or, a drawing that you need a lot of support on because they can see there's a raw talent there, but maybe the school you went to wasn't the best.

Maybe the opportunities you had at universities weren't great, because you messed around in A levels. That's not your, it's just, you shouldn't be punished for some of these things that you've been getting and the opportunity was diminished slightly. If you can find the right outfit, they can identify, an ability to upskill and get better.

I think you're much more employable than that. Someone that's coming and going, yeah I'm, I'm A class and I know you give me 50 grand a year and hire me. It's no, I'm just

Stephen Drew: wait. Yeah, come back down for a bit. Yeah.

Petr Esposito: So I think, that's what I would say from seeing on the flip side.

And I've always been, I quite I've never seen myself as a particularly excellent designer. I'm not, I didn't get good grades at ME, I was the third worst grader at the Bartlett. I don't come from a, a good, obviously it's a good [00:21:00] school and, I'm not, I'm ashamed of that side, third lowest grade, let's, let's not kid ourselves.

But I've always been quite verbose in, in interviews, so I think I've been quite lucky in that sense, that I, I could be quite dramatic and I think that can hold well, and that's good. It might annoy the arse out of some people, which is also fine But, so I've been quite fortunate, but for those that are introverted, don't, you shouldn't be the blockade to get a great job, just thinking, expressing yourself, and a good employee will see that.

And I think if a bad, someone can't see that, if a bad employer walk away, don't bother, what is the point? There is plenty, there's enough jobs there to, or enough opportunity to find something good.

Stephen Drew: I agree. It was interesting because we had a little Twitter exchange at the start and then my mate Ryan, who I studied, Ryan Holland he used to he was, he is such he's gone so far.

Yeah, Ryan Holland, I studied with him. Yeah, is he your friend, is he?

Petr Esposito: We used to, I was at Mac, so I, Soda was in the office above us.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, above the Burger King. Yeah, I know exactly where you guys were. The weirdest location on earth. Yeah, it was just, it was, you [00:22:00] got, was it Leicester Square or

Petr Esposito: whatever, is it?

Yeah, it was, I, yeah, I couldn't think of a worse place to, to, not company wise, but just location, because it was, you go through the, literally the back door of Burger King, you go through their service entrance, and once a month, they used to clean the vat out, so it stunk of crap, so it was a really unpleasant way to start the day.

And then, You had this, you had the golden hour at 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM no tourists, no buss, no beat boxes. And 10:00 AM every day. Monday to Friday.

I can't do this anymore. Can't. Three years I survived that. So yeah, it was awkward. And that was my first ever live beatboxing as well.

Stephen Drew: I love that. I was quite enjoying it. I feel like I'm there right now. I wanna get a Burger King and pop up to the to the office. Yeah. Ryan, I studied with him and the why I brought Ryan up is because he's sometimes used to bat heads with one or two of the tutors, but he's [00:23:00] done incredibly well and he, I think Ryan's a really good example of, can go so far, whereas for quite funny, I had a 2 1 quite comfortably and I don't do architecture anymore, right? And then I did a podcast with Chris Harless, who's one of the directors from Squires. and worked at Canary Wharf and he was the same who said I was out partying and he got so bad grades he couldn't even get a job in architecture.

He had to go down to a building site where they told him to hold the measuring tape out quite literally so they can get measurements and then he's the design director of Squire. So I think it it all goes around. But what I want to do now, we're going to, we're going to experiment Peter for a new thing.

So where are we, where's that accent from? Where do you come from? Remind me.

Petr Esposito: I'm from Sussex. I was born in Sussex in

Stephen Drew: my family house. Okay. I've got here. We got the Sussex bells of the past. Okay. All right. I want you to tell me, listen to the bells. Okay. Listen to the bells and concentrate. Yeah. Now what the bells are asking [00:24:00] me, we're going to go back.

When did you think I'm going to be an architect In Sussex.

Petr Esposito: Oh. I never wanted to be an architect. . I'm not sure. I'm not sure I ever did or do these bells don't work Rubbish. I my intro into architecture was I was sheer dumb luck and, desperation. I was in, I was rubbish. I was okay at GCSE.

I was rubbish at A levels. I got I got a two C's and a D, or a C and two D's in English language, history, and photography. So they weren't even that, photography was the one art thing, and the rest was just a bad riot even though I try them right now. I didn't actually learn anything.

And then I was good at cadets. I was good at cadets, which is just. Telling people to march around a square, shoot some guns and want to fly, but never fly because you only got to, they only took people out flying once a year. So that wasn't really much air cadets. It was much just running around in a blue costume.

But it was [00:25:00] vocational and I think that's where later in my career, that's where I actually, I think I learned best. So it was really vocational. You did all like the air cadet stuff and So I wanted to be in the Royal Air Force, so I went to go and interview with the OASC, and they said no, because I was 18, I wanted to be an officer, and, send men around the battlefield, and it was absolutely idiotic so they go away and travel for a year.

I didn't try and be a manager somewhere, do more courses. I did that and I had bad A levels and I went around and traveled and I came back and I actually passed the interview at that stage, but I actually found out I failed my medical because I got a dodgy nose. And was absolutely devastated.

I had no A levels. I had no UCAS application. I had nothing. I was working at Costa for a year and a half earning, minimum wage. Actually I really liked it. So I'm not downbeing that. I was, because it was like really Mindfulness in terms of it's just repeat exercise and that was okay.

But my brother was working at Gensler he was actually recently left, but he's been there for 12 years. And [00:26:00] he had graduated from Ravensbourne, which is does interior design, environmental architecture idea. You can see where my tutor, Lely Reid, got the idea from. The, and he was good friends with Leighton.

He was the the director of interior design. And he was like, my brother's, doesn't know what he's going to do. He hasn't really got many options. Would you mind speaking to him, help me out? And, this is, this comes down to privilege. And I accept that massively. That was in a really fortunate position.

And a lot of other people don't get this. Almost, I don't know anyone. We've got a meeting with The professor and director of a course but I also wasn't going to turn it down. And I went and met and he, Layden's kind of this maverick character. He's, he was ex BARLIP some 40 years ago, good friends with the chaps at so he knows his people and he's got a great network, but he loves not doing things by the book. He's almost if it's by the book, he would say, no, do it somewhere else. And I was like, I don't have a future. So he said he, that's a ridiculous line, but he said, are you going to give blood?

I was like I'll give anything. What do you want? So you give blood and I'll stick you on this [00:27:00] course. So he actually just he got around UCAS, just let me on. And I didn't have, I didn't know how to draw. I wasn't an artist. I didn't know anything. And I got put on this course and I was like I'm two years behind all my mates who went straight to university.

I don't know what do. is a guy that's saying you can go on to a course and my brother did and got first in my head starting a very successful career at Gensler. I'm not going to say no to that. I will lap it up and take it. And I don't know if it was out of sheer guilt or, I think probably a lot of it has to do with guilt and a lot of it to do with desperation, not to fail personally.

I I worked. Every hour under the sun to do that course. And I, and it will there. Ravensbourne is, not a high ranking university, but actually there's some really great students that come out of it. And a lot of them are now in senior positions across large interior and architecture firms across London from MCM To Gensler, to Rob Gorder, who's a creative director of Third Way.

He's actually in my brother's year. To Scott Malin, who's head of design for Third Way [00:28:00] Architecture, so they do spit out some pretty wicked designers. So I left that course. After, actually after three years I graduated and then I went to Foster's and I hate it.

I hate my life and hate Foster's and it was crummy and don't ever work there. It's good for the season. Maybe I'm not allowed to say that. I probably shouldn't say that, should I? It's

Stephen Drew: an opinion piece. It's an opinion piece. Some people enjoy Foster's, right? You didn't particularly enjoy it.

Petr Esposito: Foster's opens a number of opportunities. It's an equal opportunity employer. It's fantastic. It certainly challenges the dynamic of architecture in a world that we should really be privileged to be in, even though I worked 80 hours a week and didn't get any overtime. But it's great. I'm really worried, I should say.

Anyway, the point is, it was great for CV and Then I went to the pilot, which was, I don't know if it was a mistake or not, because it was hard. It was really hard. I did I was struggling, from day one, really, like the guys in there are [00:29:00] mental. They're so talented. They are so good. And I don't, a lot of them don't do architecture.

They'll do like Arduino stuff and make code and

Stephen Drew: I did the Arduino. I wasn't very good at it. I

Petr Esposito: understand it. It's mental and people are doing mental stuff with algorithms and stuff. It's yeah, but where, my dad made a, always a point. He came to the end of your show for my fourth year.

And he walked around and he's I've looked at all the plans, all the, some 200 students, I can't find one place where they've designed somewhere you can do a shit. And I was like, it's so common dad, I can take that, I like it, that's what he's looking for. So I was like, yeah, I get it, because it's so it is I mean they do push the boundaries, it is poetic, it is amazing, I don't take anything away from what people do there.

Yeah. But I found it very hard and I struggled all the way through. I was only like really fortunate that I had a really great tutor in James O'Leary he's still at the Bartlett, and he just like just kept me going, I don't know if he wanted to or how sheer I don't want to dwell on it, but my mum died [00:30:00] in I was in a co ed space during my fourth year I was in, is was in obviously not a co ed space either.

So I don't, and I hope James didn't know how to Guild, he somehow just got me by the scruff and just sent me through the whole process. And I still, on record I think, I'm the only student at the Bylet, to have had, Someone do a human shit on their project.

Stephen Drew: Oh, that sounds disgusting, actually.

It sounds funny, but I wouldn't want to be in the room. It probably stinks.

Petr Esposito: So there's the Again, you said

Stephen Drew: I shouldn't have sworn. I think I've sworn about 50 times. No, you can. It's all right. It's explicit. Don't worry.

Petr Esposito: My fifth year project, I was interested in homelessness As a subject title, but in a way that was anti typical architecture.

A lot of it's like paper based, let's solve the homeless problem by designing these really expensive, overly designed answers that never get built. So they're always around, actually, I think the ego of the architect rather than [00:31:00] actually the problem that they're trying to solve. So I wrote, my whole thesis was about, can we design something that's affordable that actually engages the problem?

So I was like, I've got 400 quid left of my student loan. I need to build something for 400 quid that does something that engages the,

The issue. So we had this typically Bartlett esque, it was the scattered domesticity the scattered house, or just a broken house or something along those lines, a lot simpler.

That you had. Bits of the house around the city. So I thought I'd build the kitchen bit and the Bartlett has a kind of a big workshop outside, but the year before I was actually the I dropped a metal frame on my head at the end of year show and bleeding and the ambulance came the next year. They actually stopped the entire.

Ability for students to make their own show because of my doing. Look what you've done, look what you've done, Pierre, huh? I've obviously so it's my own kind of fault, so then the workshop was filled with [00:32:00] people making the show, so I had to build my structure. It was, you It was a proper single story kitchen pop up, folding out tables, had a little terrace, had the everything, and on the one day, it was raining like a lot that summer, one day it was sunny, I got there really early, it's my one day to paint, I've got two weeks beforehand in, I've got to paint this thing and get it on, and as I go in, there's a geyser But, what are you doing?

He was like, oh yeah, I'm really sorry. I slept in here. I was like, ah, I'm not going to get annoyed. The whole point of this project is to focus on my home. So I was like, ah, okay. So I took him for coffee and some food and we had a really genuine chat. He'd come down from Liverpool looking for work and hadn't got any.

But he went on his way and I went back to making the structure and I could smell defecation. I could smell that it was, oh, this is very bad. I can't, I don't no, and I, I wasn't angry at all. I was just like, oh, this is bad. And I cleaned everything up and what have you, and it's [00:33:00] still there.

What is that smell? I can't believe I've cleaned this thing up and I've moved all the wood out and I've I'm perplexed about what's going on. As I bending over trying to find out what it is. My leg just slips up from underneath me and I turn around and he's, the poor guy has got nowhere to go.

And I, I sympathize, but he obviously didn't want to go outside and defecate on my model on my building and squashed it into it. So I spent the next day cleaning it. I asked for an extension at the barlot. They denied it and nevermind.

Stephen Drew: Wow. He left that part out until after the coffee, didn't he?

He enjoyed that. Oh, look. Have a grand day, please. Never see you again. Thank you so much. Hey.

Petr Esposito: Poor guy. It's nothing on him. He's just trying to, he's just trying to get by. But it was an unexpected blip in the day.

Stephen Drew: I think that's brilliant. So wow, that's completely taken me by surprise.

In theory, your project maybe it's a testament, look, is you were making buildings which were used and realized back then by someone that [00:34:00] inadvertently went in there. Hey, although that wasn't very theoretical for Bartlett, was it? That was quite literal. Yeah,

Petr Esposito: It was base level. It was a box.

Make some still friends with from the bottom, always take the, to make, take the mickey out of me for that, but it was practical. And that was my shtick. It worked, it was a user experience thing. And actually I've taken, and this comes down to the honest point.

It's not that's what I know. That's how I think. That's how I talk about spaces. That's how I talk about architecture. It is the manifestation of what's real. What does actually get built? What, how do people actually use it? How do people actually engage it? There's a pop up kitchen that sold soup, and some guy thought, Nah, I don't want to buy a soup in it, I want a crap in it.

Fine, actually, that's how you want to use it. That's that's much more real. Let's talk about that instead. Let's talk about the lack of places for people to actually, have good health care in the city because there's no public toilets. That's a much better conversation about.

Urbanism and architecture, then I think about [00:35:00] then some of the algorithm stuff, but that's just me. That's my own shtick and I get that. But it's me being honest about what I know, what I like, what I think I can add to the conversation because everyone else that's far more academic, a lot smarter than I can take on the more challenging ideas around, computer science and how that works in architecture.

it's just out of my remit. I'm not going to pretend, I'm not even going to try and engage that conversation because I just, I don't have the mental capacity to take on those ideas. What I can do is maybe talk about social things and social ideas and people experience, and that to me is far more invigorating, far more exciting, and it has a realistic, Realism that is both architectural and I think the second bit is humanizing.

That's why I actually, before, that's why I like this, it's a, you're, this is quite boring episode for everyone else, but for, podcast is it's very accessible. It's much more humanizing. It's about the realism of how people, get involved in architecture or don't get involved in architecture, have different career [00:36:00] paths.

That's what I think is really exciting. That's what I think is really interesting. And so often you get told, especially in hoity toity architecture schools, it has to be more than this. How do we put so many different verbs into a sentence that I don't understand? I have to use a dictionary in one hand and the paper in the other to basically say, I want to put a white box in a bigger white box.

All right, that's cool. I don't understand what's going on. What are people talking about? How do I go in this building and that's it? But, no, it has to be It's a constant conflict. It's architecture is meant to design for people, yet people can't understand architectural dialogue and theory, so what's going on?

I don't get it.

Stephen Drew: I think that was fantastic. I've been blown away by that. What's quite interesting is, I think you don't realise there was a revelation in there. You might not have been aware of. I think that's the first time I've heard of someone from the Bartlett build a building. Only joking Bartlett school.

It's fantastic work. I'm only joking. First [00:37:00] building ever made by a Bartlett, used by the homeless guy who shit in the building. Fantastic. All right. Hey, so from shithouses to third way architecture and winning projects and competing against BYG BGY,

Petr Esposito: they're good man, I don't know how they do it, they're just, they're very good.

Stephen Drew: That's good. It's important that you get good companies because they all keep each other on their toes. It's inspiration. It's like precedents, isn't it? Not copying each other or anything like that, but someone has a good project. You learn something from it. That's how a design's improved.

So look, I think this has been a bit of a whirlwind. I'm conscious of your five o'clock deadline.

Petr Esposito: Of course I've got to do something. I've got to export. You've got to I'm good to go. We're always. That's why I was a bit late to this. I just need to get it, the last bit, get the FIBA proposal done. I've just got to write my email about, it's a privilege to be involved in this project, and I'm so supportive of everything you're doing.[00:38:00]

Stephen Drew: Oh, have you got any questions for me? There you go, it's not fair I ask all the questions, isn't it?

Petr Esposito: Yeah this is do you have a question, let's not ask you if I haven't got one. Yeah, don't worry, it's

Stephen Drew: not there.

Petr Esposito: No, hey, what do you do not in a facetious way, what's the kind of, you talked about it before it's a passion project, but you've there's a natural sort of take up in terms of how you host your podcast.

What's the driver? What's,

Stephen Drew: okay. Yeah, a few real deals. Okay. So in recruitment, I'd always be bumped. Say now you've given me a particular role and it would be you need a technologist or you need someone that's run the project for a few years. What you'll find is that in recruitment, you'll put ads out.

So a part one might apply, or a part two, and I'm working for you, I'm against the clock, and so I always try to impart wisdom a little bit on the students, but there's a very limited time period to do that [00:39:00] because due to the nature, like you with deadlines, there's only so much time I can give, so you try to give two or three minutes and get someone in the right direction.

That's going to be a short term fix, but it's not a long term problem solution. And what I find as well is that obviously it's really valuable to speak to someone one on one, but if there was a way to unpack information that I would find really useful when I was a part one and make it available to all, then that would be really helpful.

And so basically on the architecture team at McDonnell Company. And I'm happy to be quite open about it. We were doing really well really well. And coronavirus came and half the roles just went off the cliff. It was as if, imagine if I had a few roles in your practice and you're like, Steve, I've got to worry right now about my existing staff.

Thank you very much. But. We're going to recruit in a few months time. And our team, I volunteered to go on furlough to be honest. And I went on furlough in April and the first month I [00:40:00] thought, you know what, I'm going to make the most of it. And I had a few beers and wines and I watched Netflix.

I did, I was like, I did it all. I did all, I didn't go around doing paintings and all this stuff. I had a right good laugh and, It was great for one month, but after a month, I was like, oh, okay. I've, I felt like I completed Netflix and it would be like you, when it'd be like that screen would be there, and it'd be like, are you still there?

And you're like, I'm still here. Yeah.

Petr Esposito: Wish it didn't ask you, feel like a bit of guilt. It's yeah. What are you trying to say?

Stephen Drew: I was like I want to be productive, but I need to be passionate about it. And I'm like you, I can't fake passion. I ever want to do it or not. And then I thought about, and I was stumbling along at one point.

And I've, cause when I had my business, I could like yourself in business. I learned certain skills to a point. I've never been interested in coding per se, but I'll call it a little bit too. Achieve a goal and then leave it. And so over the years, I learned a bit of website, I learned a bit of this, learned a bit of that.

And then I found a solution online [00:41:00] where I could visualize actually solving the problem. I was like, wouldn't it be cool if there was a community because there's Facebook groups everywhere, but they've we can swear in this episode. So they full of shit, they full of people who are distracting things, it's a bit like sometimes in Clarkwell it's good, but then you walk down and there's a million.

People selling towels, right? And look, and I'm in recruitment as well. I understand the world of sales and that's fine. But I was thinking, wouldn't it be nice if there was an area where people could talk openly and contribute? And I'm at that point where in one way, I don't need to prove myself so I can make my own rules up and what I quite like is the way I see the architecture social is a platform for people to use and so I've done my bit at which is walking people through careers and giving that guide in a bit of a shitty situation right now how to tackle the problem on how you can do it but we're I'm quite in the next phase of the social.

It's these weird and quirky things. So [00:42:00] we have a book club on there right now. There's five or six people in the book club and everyone was posting this morning saying, my book's coming from Amazon and they're going to read the book. And I'm like, that's cool. I quite liked the idea of a book club.

I'm like, I'm not going to be, and I joked, I said, you're not going to get me in it because I can barely read a page without my brain going off. But why not, right? Someone wants to do a bookshop and I quite like from from your point of view, that there's a chance where you say, now you get a role, you can post it, direct to part ones, direct to architects and get engaged with the community.

So why not? It was the short

Petr Esposito: answer. From listening to all your previous podcasts and going on the app, it's great. I just genuinely really enjoyed it. It's been it's been really interesting. And also, you're giving some of The people we've had on I don't think would normally get exposure like this or get to share their stories like that and I think that's and again it's come to that [00:43:00] point like you haven't got to be on this high horse high echelon of yeah blue sky thinking actually those graduating coming up with really excellent interesting perspectives and ideas that I think should be shouted about and I think yeah

Stephen Drew: Higher pre Yeah, I appreciate it.

Do you know what? And it's the same thing as I look, this is, watching a podcast on Dizzee and talking to Thomas Heverwick, it is interesting. Okay. I'm interested in the guys below Heverwick or I'm interested in the real world or people's failures, people doing well. and making mistakes. And it's and that to me is the interesting conversation.

And if we can facilitate that, then awesome. And I quite like that. I can get away with bells and horns and all this, but it's a bit of fun. It's a bit of fun. We were talking about it. Cause it's like on, it's There's no, there's nothing interested on LinkedIn. It's so boring. So if we can just like, boring police, then just have a bit of fun with it all.

Then that, that's, and then maybe learn a few [00:44:00] things along the way. Why not? That's the perfect combination.

Petr Esposito: I'm a big fan. I think you're absolutely right. I think a little bit of. Ego Takedown is fantastic. I think this is a very healthy antidote to the normal architectural dialogue. I think this is exactly what it needs.

Stephen Drew: I appreciate that. We'll do more stuff. So on that note, so if anyone is interested in third way architecture or yourself, so you're up for On the Architectural Social, so someone can message you there. They can message you on LinkedIn. If we don't have a lockdown, in theory, you are knocking around in London.

You're running the practice with Liam, which is awesome. And if anyone's looking for a job or anything right now, do you have an email that they can send their CV portfolio to?

Petr Esposito: We're always keeping an open mind. It's hello at thirdaryarchitecture. co. uk sorry, com, but it doesn't get missed.

Liam checks them all. We always he kind of pings all the interesting ones through. So don't hesitate. And even if it's [00:45:00] some, if you want to chat or you want some advice or anything like that, we, fairly open to all those sort of things. And yeah don't hesitate to call because actually people like speaking to people.

People like people, they get that. So I think it's just yeah, so don't just, Pester me, pester everyone that you can.

Stephen Drew: I love it. Okay. And the test, if anyone's listening, what image should someone send to hello at Third Way Architecture? Should we put an image of a bell? Put an image of something?

Should we actually see if someone emails you an image or something?

Petr Esposito: What image? Stick an image of a bell and see what happens.

Stephen Drew: Everyone, email a bell to hello at thirdwayarchitecture. co. uk or com. You know what? This is really embarrassing. I'm actually to check. Hahaha!

Petr Esposito: What

Stephen Drew: is

Petr Esposito: it? What is it? Hold on.

Third Ray. com Of course it's third ray. com We knew that. That's a good way to end, yeah.

Stephen Drew: Third ray. com. Yeah, so you almost tried to give me the third ray. com. Yeah, so you almost tried to give me the third ray. com. Yeah,

Petr Esposito: I'm gonna hide [00:46:00] myself. No. ThirdWayArchitecture. com, there you go.

Stephen Drew: All right, send them bells over. All right, Peter, amazing having you here. I really can't wait to see how far and how big Third Way Architecture gets. I know design quality is the most important thing, but hey, keep doing them amazing buildings. Keep giving Piercy a call, run for your money. And yeah, literally from shithouses to all the shithot buildings.

So well done. I'm so pleased.

Petr Esposito: Hey, that was alright, wasn't it? Yeah, that was good. That was a good way to end. I love it. Yeah, great. Great, Stephen.