Regenerative Designs, Real Impact: Career Insights from Russ Edwards, Architect turned Developer

Regenerative Designs_ Real Impact_ Career Insights from Russ Edwards_ Architect turned Developer
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. It's that time again. I think it's pretty much lunch now, isn't it? Quarter to one? Grab the sandwich and off we go. Here we go. Architects who think and they want to go in development. This is going to be an interesting one for you too. Hello everyone and welcome to this live stream special. We've got an interesting show today because if you've been [00:01:00] interested in working for a developer, perhaps you've been working with a client, a project director who's a visionary who's looking at all this stuff and you thought maybe one day I would like to do that or you just want to be a good architect and want to learn more about working efficiently.

With a developer who's passionate about design, then we have got a really good episode for you because I am joined by the fantastic Russ Edwards here. How are you, Russ? Are you okay?

Russ Edwards: Very well. Thanks. Enjoying the Easter period.

Stephen Drew: Exactly. We might get a little bit of sun soon and you've got your exciting projects on the way, which I can't wait to learn more about, but before we do that, Russ, while me and you have spoken a bit before, maybe there's one or two people in the audience which haven't met you. Not too sure some of the projects you've done, who knows, but can you first of all introduce yourself?

Russ Edwards: Sure. Yeah. So Russ Edwards I'm currently working with Latimer, which is part of [00:02:00] Clarion Housing Group. But I trained as an architect worked in practice for around 10 years. Most of that time with DRMM the Sterling Prize winning practice, although Okay. Not when I was there, unfortunately and then subsequent to that, I spent around 10 years in development roles.

Originally in sort of design and technical roles within the development fraternity and latterly as a project director.

Stephen Drew: Fair enough, one, good for you. Now tell me, so at the start of your career, would you have ever predicted that you'd be now working for a developer when you were studying at university? Was that part of your plans or was it a case of just going along with the flow and seeing what happened Russ?

Russ Edwards: Yeah, it was certainly not part of my plans. I was 100 percent convicted. I, convinced I was going to be architect for the rest of my career. Loved actually, the job. I really enjoyed practice. I was [00:03:00] fortunate at DRMM. They were a great bunch of people doing fantastic work.

And I had a great role within that business. So I led their residential projects for five or six years. So no, I, it's safe to say I didn't anticipate anything other than being an architect. And in fact, you can probably Push that a lot further back than just my studies from when I was at secondary school, I always wanted to be an architect.

And I guess I, but I, during practice a bit as you suggested at the, in the intro I was fortunate with some of my clients. That they started to open my mind to the development side and the really positive influence that a good client can have. And I guess the opposite is also true, a bad client can have a very negative impact on a project.

And so I guess that's what really started me thinking about, um, crossing over to the client side. It wasn't because I'd fallen out of architecture at [00:04:00] all. It was more that saw opportunities to perhaps have more influence.

Stephen Drew: That makes complete sense. And do you think as well, it was that passion that you've had for certain particular projects which carry through and was important to you, be going to a develop developer?

Russ Edwards: Yeah, I think so. It was pretty housing specific, I my first I started in architectural practice working on education buildings, but during my time with DRMM, I was asked to take care of their athletes village. Projects for the 2012 Olympics and that's my first experience with housing projects.

Then went on to work on Battersea Power Station regeneration and also the Elephant and Castle regeneration. And urban projects, but really through that work, I started to I guess having a much greater understanding of the housing crisis, and I think my passion around the housing crisis is probably what led me into development more than just [00:05:00] design as a sort of driver, I think you, you can probably track some of my career decisions around scale and influence and I think, Client side, you do, you have a lot more influence potentially.

You can also influence the design, do I miss putting, getting my pens out and redlining stuff? Absolutely I do. But I don't really miss practice if I'm brutally honest. I, I do miss the design. I miss the kind of job satisfaction of seeing your You know, your projects realized, but I get that same job satisfaction through different channels now, perhaps a bit more vicariously, but my project that I'm currently working on is over seven and a half thousand homes.

And, I'm able to directly influence those hopefully in a positive way. And the reality is I wasn't that as influential when I was in practice.

Stephen Drew: Okay. May. It makes complete sense. I think what would be useful as well, Russ, is [00:06:00] because sometimes when people imagine the role of an architect in the developer, it can vary between people and people. And my experience and what I'm beginning to learn doing these podcasts now is that. Different developments, different projects is these different roles.

What would be awesome is if you can visualize now what you do in the day to day, just so people can understand how this role is different from, as you say, before, maybe what you were doing when you were practicing architecture as in an architecture practice.

Russ Edwards: Yeah, so it's, it's probably worth touching on the sort of architect I was before perhaps coming into the, what sort of developer I am. Um, most architects need a healthy, um, bit of arrogance and I'm no different. So I, I thought I was a good designer, but I wasn't a sort of design architect as it were.

I didn't, I wasn't an ivory tower or light bulb kind of architect. I was much more or became much more delivery focused. Obviously working very closely with the the key people in the practice who were leading the design and then managing the [00:07:00] teams and delivering those projects. Always had, quite a pragmatic approach to architecture and delivery.

And That was quite an easy transition to my early development roles where I was working in design and technical guidance or management sort of roles. So my first role development side was with Pocket Living, the small London based affordable housing developer. And I was there Director of Design, and it was a new role created as part of their expansion.

And so, portfolio wide, but still delivery or, pragmatic focus, making sure that the brief was being met, all of that kind of stuff. So it was quite an easy transition. And then my next move was to Lendlease, the, Very large, multinational urban regeneration specialist much bigger business, much bigger portfolio, but ostensibly very similar role.

So design and technical in the residential part of that business are overseeing the quality of the design work and [00:08:00] indeed The delivery aspects of it. So I think that was really quite an easy sort of transition from the sort of architect I was, very similar sort of skills being used on a day to day basis, quite a different role on a day to day basis, but, still design team coordination, still, in truth, still on, using design skills to improve things.

But now my role is quite different from that. It has departed quite a lot further from hands on design issues. And it's much more strategic now. So The project itself I'm solely dedicated to this project. It's called Tendering Colchester Borders Garden Community.

So we're working on a better, a name for it, but it's it's a very large new settlement just outside of Colchester. It's pre planning. So the last two years in this role has really been working constructively with local authority partners to, [00:09:00] to shape the policy. So in reality, these are completely new projects. Skill sets that I've been developing during that time. I wasn't I would say I wasn't really a policy wonk in any way prior to this job, but I've learned an awful lot in the past, two years. A lot of stakeholder management, which I think is part of the architectural sort of practice skillset.

But equally, a huge amount of internal governance. And I, I never learned accountancy skills when I was training. I don't think architects. Do but I've had to learn quite a bit of that side, the business planning side as well. So long, long winded answer, but what, it's a cliche.

What does my day look like? It is genuinely very varied. Lots of as I say, a lot of stakeholder management. So working with councils, working with the local communities, um, to make sure that we're listening and hearing what's important for them about this project. Still working with designers, we've appointed a fantastic design team [00:10:00] through a competition that we held early last year.

So we have a team led by Hayworth Tompkins, obviously a very, strong award winning practice, and they're supported by Sholanda Hoiberg, a brilliant designer. Swedish practice, we have Periscope on Landscape, so we've got a fantastic design team which have been working very hard, and I love, I still get my kicks out of sitting in design team meetings and having those sort of qualitative debates with with colleagues but I would say, I don't know, maybe that's 20 25 percent of my week's time rather than, what it was in practice.

Stephen Drew: Okay, cool. Wow. Thank you so much for visualizing that because I think it's really important. You touched there. Upon one part that there was a competition, Hayworth's Tompkins won, and congratulations to them. I'm sure they deserve that you pick them out. However, back before, it might have been you, Russ, as part of that design team for the competition, pitching for the work.

And what I'd love to know, now you've [00:11:00] been on the other side of the fence, you've been the opposite side, seeing the architects pitch for the work. Do you have any tips there or insights you thought, okay. This would have been good to know back then, or maybe this is some bit, the tidbits that you can impart to fellow architects competing for projects.

Russ Edwards: That's a really good question. Yeah. So I think throughout my time on the development side of the sort of equation it's something I've given a lot of thought to when I was with Pocket Living in that first role, we did procure a lot of our work through competition. And Yeah, there are definite do's and don'ts.

I think some obvious ones are like, read the brief properly. Don't leap to what you think the brief is saying when it's actually asking for something different. And I think that's both in terms of the the building description, if you like, but equally the submission requirements, the amount of times I've had submission requirements that either don't meet the expectations or go way over the top.

And actually, it's near impossible to [00:12:00] read it within the timeframes available. So that's a definite point. I think really thinking about your audience, I think is probably one of the best bits of advice I could give. Particularly are they, predominantly architects or are they predominantly non architects, the language you use, the kind of graphics that are used really should be very different depending on who your audience is.

And I find that, that is A common error, I think architects and building industry professionals will often prepare graphics for themselves rather than for perhaps a more lay audience and rely on charisma or hot air in the interview to get them over that line.

But, unless you're really meeting the brief, In a submission, you might not even get to that point. I think open competitions in particular are [00:13:00] brutal. So we, in our competition for the garden community projects we had 30 submissions. It was an open competition, but it was quite onerous.

So it needed a full consultant team. And there was a bit of speculative design work. It was unpaid at stage one. Stage two was subject to an honorarium, but at stage one. So we had 30 submissions and we had each submission had, a document, ITT, and then a visual piece. And I think there was a video as well or something of that nature.

Jury was six or seven of us. We were in a room for a day. If you just do the math, we were in the room for about six hours, 30 submissions, that's not much more than 10 minutes a submission. So the need to really hit your message very early, very boldly and leave something that the jury, remember and strikes the journey.

It's super important and it's [00:14:00] very hard. That's why, the successful. Teams at these competitions tend to win more than one at a time. And there is a bit of zeitgeist as well about these things. The imagery can have a sort of be fashionable or trend have a sort of element of trend about them.

But I think that clarity of messaging and really understanding your audience and the process that will be followed to, to get to a short list is really important and time well spent.

Stephen Drew: There you go. I think that is really, it is useful to hear that perspective. So thank you so much for sharing it. One more along that line, Russ, if you may, because we talked about bidding for the work, however, you also touched upon the fact that you are in The design team meetings, but you're in a different position now than before as well.

Do you have any quick top tips on that aspect towards an architect? Having now been in your position where you think maybe it could be added value, maybe it could be things that are not needed or anything along that thought zero in your head that you've gone. [00:15:00] It would be good to tell the architect this now.

Russ Edwards: I should caveat this, but this is, this does not apply to my current team. I'm not going to

Stephen Drew: This is top line stuff, nothing to do with the current project.

Russ Edwards: What I guess I enjoy Being part of the design dialogue, for obvious reasons. So I want to be engaged and I want to be stimulated in that forum. But what I don't want is my designers to pin up 10 options on the wall and ask me to choose.

I want, A recommendation or a couple of recommendations. I want to understand the working out. I want to understand the sort of rationale behind a particular approach, but, ultimately we're, we've employed the designers for their skillset. And I don't want to be the proverbial dog, dog that you buy and then bark yourself.

I want our designers to tell us what they think is the right. answer. We might not always agree, but I think the fact of being taken on that journey with that working out [00:16:00] allows that debate to be a lot more nuanced and knowledgeable. And equally, the other end of the scale is someone or a sort of design team just presenting one option as a sort of fait accompli, especially early on in the design process when there's an expectation that all options are on the table and being explored.

So getting that balance right is, I think important. And I think having practiced and then become client side, there is a lot of how can I say this? Gough spoken in, in some design team meetings, there's a great one of my last things as an architect was a plain English course that the practice made us all go on.

And it was rev, revolutionary for me to try and cut out all of the kind of, uh, Unnecessary verbiage in architecture speak, typical architecture speak. That's another hint.

Stephen Drew: There you go. It is definitely not aimed at the current project. However, really good, very good tidbits here. In fact, no, thank you. [00:17:00] Cause I think that's really valuable. One other question I was going to ask Russ, not to do with that per se is, I know you're passionate about sustainability.

It's one of the reasons you're involved in this project. And that's a key thing, the driver and architect. We were speaking before. You mentioned, you have your family, you're thinking of the world up and coming, what's it going to be like? So where I'm going with this is you have your personal mission, you have your professional mission, and you're part of a development, body now that's impacting these real lives.

So then do you carry that mission into everything you do, Russ? So is it like you constantly have to push that agenda? Is that something you take on board as part of your role and you think it comes from you? I'd love to hear about that.

Russ Edwards: Yeah it's something I constantly struggle with, actually. There's a kind of constant internal dialogue, if you like. Yeah, I guess the project is just to introduce those ambitions in the project as part of that competition winning. Team that I mentioned earlier on the sustainability side of the team was [00:18:00] really very strong.

So the team included Arup, who most of your listeners would have heard of, but also in partnership with Smaller practice called Exploration Architecture and their founder is a guy called Michael Paulin who wrote a really seminal book or co wrote, I should say, a really seminal book on sustainability practice or actually regenerative design practice called Flourish.

And so we're fortunate enough to have Michael on the team. He. And he's broadened, certainly my horizons, and I think the project's and the team's horizons around these issues. He, basically, he didn't quite give me a reading list, but he, fairly strongly suggested there were some pretty important books to read, which I've followed up.

And it has changed the way I think about development, the way I think about certainly new settlement design. But I guess more importantly, how I think [00:19:00] about. My responsibility very directly and in particular to my children, but to their children and so on. Project has ambitions to be a.

A key project in regenerative design terms, and what I mean by that is we're in a sustainability has come to mean doing less bad in, in, in overly simplistic terms. Regenerative design is around having a net positive impact on the environment. The environment. And this project is 25 years at least.

And so during that process, we need to reach a point of neutrality and then reach a point where we're having a net positive impact. And so, I've been thinking a lot about that, what it means for the project, but as I say, what it means for my. own family life, do I have a, I've rewilded my back garden to be, as a prosaic sort of example of how it's changed things.

And [00:20:00] I've have conversations with my children on a very different footing to how I probably would have had a couple of years ago. And I, bear in mind I would have counted myself as being fairly progressive a couple of years ago, but I think. The climate crisis has reached such a tipping point that just ticking along with received logic and doing less bad is not going to get us where we need to be.

Again, another rambling answer, but it is something that has impacted me deeply. And as you suggest, so particularly because of, I've got kids myself, and I'm really struggling to reconcile what sort of world we might leave future generations unless we get on top of this.

Stephen Drew: There is important to get on top of it. The other thing is with development, I think it's, of course, projects have to make a profit, right? But there's been varying scales of development, and I guess how much of the design is involved depends on the developer, depends [00:21:00] on the project, depends on all this stuff as well.

Do you think that your background in architecture has helped those decisions where sometimes you save certain parts of the design, or now that you've seen things in both sides for us, do you think actually it informs? More of your decision now, where you go actually, we can't do everything before this, but, and you pick your battles.

Has your perspective on, on that changed? Now you've seen the full picture compared to before, maybe?

Russ Edwards: I think it definitely has. And, you might get some different insights from the consultants that, that I'm working with, whether I'm successful or more positive in that respect, I think it goes two ways. I think I definitely an understanding of the value that.

Architecture and good design can bring to a project that goes beyond pounds and pence, so I can try and be a bit of an interpreter with the design team [00:22:00] to the people in charge of budgets, for example, in articulating the value case yeah, as I say, beyond the balance sheet.

And that's, I think, really important. And valuable for our consultant teams. The other end of the spectrum, I think I'm also in a great place to challenge that consultant team around perceptions of what's important. And to articulate to that audience why we might have a different perspective as a developer, what might constitute value from a development perspective rather than a sort of pure design perspective.

So I think. Being the interpreter, if you like, between those two sort of audiences is definitely something I can bring bring to the project, given my background, 100%.

Stephen Drew: that makes complete sense. I'll be honest here Russ as well because sometimes as I told you while I worked in architecture before, I have been involved in recruitment and I used to work with developers as well as architecture practice and I think that a lot of [00:23:00] architects would sometimes really fancy the idea or they have a bad week or they've been thinking a while and they go right!

I've had enough. I want to go to a developer. However, grass isn't always greener and it's a very tricky role and it's very different than sometimes people imagine. It's not quite a case of we'll leave architecture designing per se and go on to a higher paid role doing, in house stuff.

It's very different. What would your advice be to someone along that lines? Is it a big commitment actually moving to a developer, something that shouldn't take, be taken lightly? Is it right for every architect, in your opinion, having seen both sides now?

Russ Edwards: Yeah, I think it is a big step. I don't know if it's true now, but when I moved across and that, as I say, that was around 10 years ago, I very much thought of it as a one way move. I do, I am aware of some. Sort of people coming across and going back to practice afterwards, but I certainly felt that it was a [00:24:00] one way door, if you like.

I think I'm also lucky in that I had a, a great time in practice. I really enjoyed my architectural career. And as I say, I didn't leave because I had a bad day, or, I did have some bad days, don't get me wrong, but that's not why I left practice. I also didn't really leave to chase the work life balance, although I'd be lying if I said it wasn't. better and a part of the discussion point, but it wasn't a driver. And so I think really thinking about your motive for crossing is important, but yeah, and certainly it's not for everyone, but neither is a practice. Frankly, I think I've met a lot of architects when I was in practice that probably would have worked really well.

Client side and equally I've met some architects who've crossed the client side and it [00:25:00] hasn't lived up to their expectations. And as a consequence, they're not, particularly fulfilled. Yeah really working through your motive for doing it. I also, to, touch a little bit on my, Specific journey, I was really fortunate in that I have worked predominantly on development side for clients that I worked for as a consultant prior to leaving practice.

And so there was trust there, frankly,

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Russ Edwards: From the outset. So my first role with Pocket was for a particular figure who was also really informative In my architectural career, he was my client, my direct client at Battersea Power Station Regeneration, a guy called Nick Williams, and amazing guy.

From the outset, whilst I, didn't know what the job would be, I didn't know Perhaps what the different challenges would be, I had a kind of mentor, if you like, their day to day, who I trusted, who could help me [00:26:00] work through those challenges. And then equally, when I went to work with Lendlease and more recently, Back to Clarion has been another client from my time as an architect.

He was my client on the Athletes Village. He was my client on Elephant and Castle, a guy called Richard Cook. And again, that level of trust and Protection, if you like, has been a key part in my decision to come across in the first place. And it's paid dividends, I'm very, I have no doubt it was the right move for me.

So I think, um, that, it shouldn't be taken lightly. It needs a lot of thought and it's not an easy way of. Improving, I think, things. It's not a sort of get out of jail free card for dissatisfaction in a particular role, I wouldn't say, but it has very different challenges. It has very different benefits.

It has very different pain points as well, frustrations. I alluded [00:27:00] to governance earlier on, governance is very different in an architectural practice to what it is in a large scale development business. And I spend a huge amount of time writing reports and processes, which are not pretty to look at, frankly.

And so it, it's, the grass is not always greener. It was, it definitely was for me though.

Stephen Drew: Wow. Really useful to hear. And I think that really gives an insight into it. I wanted to quickly ask you a question though about, so it's 2024. We've seen a lot of change at the moment. Some things are the same, but especially in tech, we're talking about artificial intelligence. We're talking about all this stuff as well.

There's a lot of buzzwords going around, but at the same time, it does seem these things are starting to bleed in, Russ. I just wanted to know your thought on maybe specifically AI. or any emerging technologies. Do you think that's starting to come into your world? Are you starting to see it come into the projects?

Or do you think it's still a long way [00:28:00] off for us? Or can you start seeing these things? Getting more and more involved in your projects and your role.

Russ Edwards: Yeah, I think inevitably it is, we, from a, from practical engagements with AI minutes and actions arising from meetings, we're certainly already dabbling in that. We have amongst our Latimer team we've used some of the AI tools to test our emerging master plans and Prepare critiques.

I wouldn't say that's a particularly perfect process at the moment. And there's some fairly illogical sort of outcomes from that. But it is provocative. I think it's fair to say. So we, we're dabbling, I think we're also, heavily engaged in a sort of digital strategy for the project, which hasn't necessarily looked at AI, but is considering parametric design and generative design aspects.

But I guess the real answer, so I've been with Atoma for two and a half years. Prior to that, I was with LendEase, and as I [00:29:00] said, in this kind of design and technical role, a little bit more forward looking, I think it's fair to say that, that role, and we were certainly considering AI opportunities in, in that business.

I guess my point is that we're certainly dabbling, I think there are lots of people out there much more actively considering how this will change. very much. Our industry for the better, and I would expect some of that stuff to come, start coming through in the mainstream pretty quickly.

My, my hope is that it can be one of the tools set to improve the sort of resourcing issues with local authority planning teams. Can AI have a role in planning determination to, Lighten the load of offices and enable more nuanced discussion around issues like design with those parties.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree. I know my business is slightly different, but anything to remove the mundane [00:30:00] and keep the focus on the parts that just involve that full process. I'm all for it on a personal level. The last question I was going to ask from me, Russ, is that it's been some, a few, rough two or three years for some people.

I think it's, since the pandemic, things have been up and down in the construction or design industry. However, I feel like there's a sense it, things are starting to look like they're going the right way. I was wondering if you're excited for anything. Of course, you've got, You're a, you're amazing project, which is just now starting to materialize.

But are you excited for the prospects of 2024 and onwards in construction?

Russ Edwards: yeah, I think there's still a few bumps ahead of us. And I think we would probably be a little bit naive to think otherwise. But there is. I think you're right. There's some growing optimism, I don't want to get into politics, but there's a, an election looming and that is generally a good catalyst for new stuff, changing things and moving [00:31:00] forward.

So I, I'm optimistic. And as you say our project is at a fantastic point where everything's still possible. So that's hugely exciting. We're working towards planning submission next year. The design work between now and then is really exciting me.

And I think another aspect of that is we're working with young people quite a lot to inform the design of that work. And I see, talking about optimism, I see, a lot more of that happening in our industry. There's a lot more youth engagement recognition of the kind of benefits that engaging with young people can bring to a project and moving away from sort of people that look like me having a final say on design decisions.

So I think that's a really exciting emerging trend, in, in in our business.

Stephen Drew: I'm all for it. I'm all for it. But you, what you mean looks like you, come on, Russ. You're one of the four. You're a trailblazer in your own right. So I really appreciate you candid. Replies and all that. It's really [00:32:00] insightful. It's not fair that I get to ask all the questions.

I'm quite curious if you wanted to ask me anything at all. Could be anything before we close down.

Russ Edwards: I've got a bit of a two parter, if I

Stephen Drew: Oh, go on then. Come

Russ Edwards: I guess the first part is, are you seeing more opportunities on the development side for architectural people with architectural skills, or or is it seen as something of a luxury during Thank you. Tough times, which, I think current sort of market probably is.

And then the second part is whether you had any insights into common blind spots for architects looking to cross over, what are they miss what are the misconceptions that they might have about those opportunities?

Stephen Drew: Okay, cool. Okay, this would be a good test because this is what I used to get this a lot more because where I used to work was McDonald and Company did a lot of real estate recruitment. And so you'd post a role online [00:33:00] for a design manager or project manager, design developers. The first thing is, I learned that the titles are all different depending on the companies.

And, That's something that people could get tripped up on first, what is the design manager here? What is the technical manager here? It all depends on the developer. And really, it was the job description which gave away what, what was needed. So that's the first thing I learned then.

Salaries was all open ended. I think it was more about someone had to come and prove they worth first, and that was the thing is, of course, an architect is an extremely valuable skill set, but it's a very different environment. And I think people have to do that jump. Where it's salary second first, and I think people that would have that attitude would do really well.

The other thing that wasn't so obvious to the architect per se is that in a development role, there's very few roles, which can be done by an architect only. And what I mean by that is that you have could have a very good architect going in for it against A structural [00:34:00] person or, RACS tends to do a lot of development roles.

So you get a lot of surveyors going for it, sometimes even mechanical engineers. But what I mean is the architect is only one of a few disciplines which can go forward for that role. And therefore, You have to know what you're up against. That's one thing that I learned as well. And I guess the other thing is there would be some misconceptions as well, it's very different.

So for example booking in an interview at a developer with the architect, it could be, they just bring the CV. The developer's not necessarily interested in going through the same level of an architecture portfolio. It's more about how big was the project? What did you do? What was your roles? And having.

That conversation. So it was very different, Russ, to going in to you at DRMMM and you'd be going through the candidates technical drawings in infinite detail. It was just very different. And and the other thing that I learned is it's very different between developers, but for example [00:35:00] there would be certain roles where you have to be outside.

at 7am and you had to be there and it was unglamorous. It was a tin shed in, in Wembley and there was no, not, I don't want to say no work life balance, but it was like, the role is you're there on site telling the people what to do and it's, dog eat dog and you've got to speak to difficult contractors.

Can you do it? So it wasn't as glamorous as some things. So that's a. Bit of my insights onto it. It's rough and ready, but if people are up to do the transition, then they normally do well. And the last thing is, it's like you don't always do design in the role. For example, even in your role, you're heavily involved in the design direction, the strategy, but You've brought on Hayworth Tompkins to do it, right?

They're leading it and your role becomes bigger than that. And actually what I used to say to some people was like, Are you sure you want to leave that behind? Because some people [00:36:00] think they do, but actually they don't. So that's a few tidbits. Was that useful? I did a bit of a

Russ Edwards: I'd add to that last point. I think my, my experience, this was practice when I was still practicing was people who had crossed over and perhaps for the wrong motivation or under illusions that they were We'll be designing, we're challenging from both sides.

So because they would be frustrated, they would want to design the building, but they're not paid for that. And so you would end up with the worst of both worlds. So yeah, I completely understand that, that perspective.

Stephen Drew: You're getting mini flashbacks of that period. I imagine there, or isn't it, or I'm sure as well, but maybe this episode will be good. So if you've been hassled down the pub Ross, by by all your friends in architecture, you can go, I'll give you the tips, but you can check out this episode as well.

Cause we covered a few of the points there. I think. I think that was an extremely valuable [00:37:00] episode. I feel like it was. So first of all, thank you so much, Russ, for being here. The last thing I was going to say before you go, if someone wants to get in touch with yourself, learn more about yourself or the Clarion Housing Group, where can they find you?

Where do you think they should go to get reach out to you?

Russ Edwards: You can find me on LinkedIn. It's, I'm reasonably active and open for connections. And that's probably the best avenue to be honest. I'm on X and but I don't tweet. LinkedIn is probably the best avenue.

Stephen Drew: Same here. I'm, I, I need to try, I need to get up my Twitter game, but you can't even call it anymore. That now is Elon Musk's ex, but there you go. Thank you so much, Russ. I really appreciate all the stuff and I can't wait to see your project over the next few years. Maybe we can return to it.

When it's at a different stage, but what an exciting stage now. And anyways, thank you so much. I'm going to end the live stream right now. Stay on the stage one more minute, Russ. While I say thank you to you in the audience as well for being here. I can see a few of you in the background. [00:38:00] Maybe you are a bit too shy to ask Russ a question, but that's okay.

You can reach out to him and contact, but it's good to know. This was engaging 'cause I can see the numbers here, more content to come soon. But do connect with Russ and it's always fantastic when people have gone to development and showcase all the insights which are really valuable to your role as an architect.

Thank you so much. I'm gonna end the livestream now. Take care everyone. Have a good day. Bye-Bye. Take care.