René van Zwijndrecht, BIM Lead at Berkeley Modular

René van Zwijndrecht, BIM Lead at Berkeley Modular
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Introduction and Guest Welcome
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Stephen Drew: Hi everyone. I am Steven Drew from the architecture social, and I am, I'm pleased to be here with a very special guest that I've known for many, many, many, many years, and, and I've been quite impressed with all. The fascinating stuff that you've been doing in terms of the BIM sector, in terms of architecture, kind of moving the shaking, and you've done a few TED talks as well, and you currently are BIM lead at Berkeley Modular and your background as well in BIM, you're a BIM manager and BIM lead at the EPR Architects.

Stephen Drew: Rene, hello, how are you? Hi, Stephen.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Are you good? Yeah, it's, it's been more than five years, I think, so yeah, it's actually. Not short time I just have to correct you, not TED Talks, then Autodesk and some of them, books. It's just [00:01:00] before people think I've been on TED.

Stephen Drew: Oh, fair, fair. You will get, you will get to TED Talks one day.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, later on, later on. Yeah. It's always good to have a goal in mind, but hey, it's fantastic Autodesk. That's really great.

Rene's Background in Architecture
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Stephen Drew: So what's probably an important distinction, so recently, We can briefly talk about your roots in terms of architecture and currently right now, what you do is you're effectively, you're working for Berkeley, a large, successful, very commercially driven, good projects as well, developer, but let's go way back when.

Stephen Drew: So your grassroots in terms of you studied architecture and your, your background, are you an architectural technician or technologist? No architect.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Yeah, I'm an architect, so I studied in South Africa in my hometown yeah, I did all kinds of commercial and residential all the way from big villas to little extensions to factories and stuff then came to the [00:02:00] U.

René Van Zwijndrecht: K. I had to kind of start Not from bottom up, but just kind of you know, relearn things that I, you know, didn't know. You know, doing some, some extensions in Nightbridge some basements. But I was, I was always frustrated with the, the way the architecture design process worked. It just didn't feel right.

René Van Zwijndrecht: It's messy and rework. And When I kind of really looked at BIM, that's when I kind of it started making a little bit of sense, or at least in the right direction. So that's why I stepped away from, from purely architecture just to get closer to that. And yeah, it's been a, been a journey for the last, say, seven years.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So yeah. How different approaches happen in that I've seen progression and I've seen regression. I've also seen how industries are trying or different sectors all the way from interior to [00:03:00] architects, to engineering. So it's, it's interesting.

Stephen Drew: That's right. Yeah, there's quite, it's quite a lot of different steps we talked about there and what's really quite interesting for anyone that's even still, maybe they work in mainstream architecture.

Transition to BIM
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Stephen Drew: Now you consciously chose to have a career in BIM. And what was that transition like at first from moving away from mainstream architecture to strategic BIM implementation? Yeah,

René Van Zwijndrecht: I was warned not to do it , so I was still at Perkinson wall at that point. My kind of a director told me, watch out. It, it's a, it's a, it's a phase or it's a, it's gonna fade out.

René Van Zwijndrecht: And yeah, just be careful that you don't commit to it and a few years. You, you, you know, it's a watered down, so I it was a little bit of a scary suggestion but me, for me, actually, the ultimate goal was to step [00:04:00] to be on the other side of the table and I'm on the blind side, so I felt that is one way to get there but I also just felt.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Being in the architecture field, you can't necessarily change it. I needed to be able to step out of it and have overseeing kind of role. So. It was a risk, definitely a risk then didn't know as much as I know now. So I had to kind of semi fake it till I make it a little bit here and there.

René Van Zwijndrecht: And and, and, and kind of you know, there's, there's many people who know BIM a lot more than or better than me, or at least a lot of book knowledge about it. But I don't think that is really what BIM is about. So, yeah. So it was a, it was a scary step to take.

Challenges and Lessons in BIM Implementation
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Stephen Drew: I find that quite interesting. And I like, I like what you touched upon practical experience and it's like everything in life.

Stephen Drew: And I've had the same thing where, you know, for instance, I used to run my own recruitment company and until you actually. Do it for a while. I remember at first I was quite [00:05:00] embarrassed to say I was a director because I was like, I'm not really a director. What, what do I know? And, and I think it comes over from time and experience and making mistakes and learning and, and a lot of it, or even now in my current role involves management and I've never managed people before.

Stephen Drew: And, and that is a completely. Different skill set that you learn and half of it through doing mistakes. And sometimes, you know, in terms of management or I've learned not to be too overbearing or anything like that. And then on the other hand on the flip side of the coin is if you're a bit too chilled or relaxed then Things don't happen and then you get from the how the the the higher powers They're like what's going on and then you end up and so what's really interesting is You talked a bit about book and the level of knowledge of BIM, we talked about practical application, you talked about people as well, but that's where the interesting challenge for me has come from in terms of BIM is that effectively we've got the theory, [00:06:00] but when you're steering a large architectural practice or Like now in development, and you're dealing with different people's different perceptions of BIM, you could be working with the architect who completely sees the future in it, the whiz kids who is good at it.

Stephen Drew: And then you've got the tried and tested architects. That's like Rennie. I'm good at AutoCAD. Yeah. I don't need BIM. I'm doing the detail. So you've had to juggle all these personalities. How has that been over the years? You learned a lot of lessons there. Yeah, absolutely.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So. When I was at DPR, we, we were, we were trying to turn the whole firm of 200 people into Revit users.

René Van Zwijndrecht: And BIM understanding from 30 or something like that, it's just a huge task. And I had all of those personalities. So and, and to be honest, there is, there's, there's a valid thing in all of that. The problem is you get people who just talk BIM. But they don't know how to put a building together.[00:07:00]

René Van Zwijndrecht: They don't know how to plan production, so they can't even put it, you know, they don't know how to just bubble out on a paper, how they're going to put a detail together. And that's, and those are usually the ones that are the worst ambassadors for them. And then, and then I've seen people who spend 30 years in the industry and for the first time they see their details on a screen and they realize.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Either doesn't work or they would have realized on site and the excitement and how that excitement then reaches them, whatever they can, they can test the designs that those amazing details have done. In a better, in a better way. So I've seen people turn around. I've, I've done training with directors.

René Van Zwijndrecht: That's the biggest challenge with on, in, in any kind of firm is the top brass that doesn't necessarily [00:08:00] for them, you know, they, they've got their pressures, it's all about money. How you plan a CAD project versus project is completely different. It's not. It's it's, it's development, it's building virtually and that's a mindset change.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So I've actually sat with directors in a room, gave them a puzzle, said, one of you, you actually, one of you've got the picture, you know how the puzzle needs to be explained to the others how to build that. Puzzle and that's kind of so if you think about CAD days, you you kind of had a need to know approach.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So someone would sit in the corner, look, you just need to know how to do this toilet cubicle. No, you can't do that. The most junior person on that team actually will have to learn very quickly how to put a building together because they're going to put it together on a, on a computer which is actually a good thing.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So incremental growth. Could be quicker. If we take [00:09:00] it, if we approach it, right,

Stephen Drew: it's really interesting and I quite like the bits you highlight as well. That is really important. You're experiencing industry, which informs them. So, you know, then you're looking at it from a practical application. You're seeing how the architects have.

Stephen Drew: Built it because you've been one yourself, you've been in that position. So you can probably advise on that process and kind of adapt from there. That's what I find. I find really interesting. And I tell you what, touching upon it, cause we've known each other for over those years, and I think a lot of recruitment that I've done has been involved in BIM and there's so many angles to it, there's so many different theories, everyone has different, weird and wonderful ways, and I've heard it as all as well, when I did one or two business owners go to me, Steve, Why should I even bother with BIM?

Stephen Drew: And in the end, I turn around and go, if you don't want to do BIM, don't do BIM. Hey, everyone else is doing it, but it's up to you. You know, if you want to get left behind, Hey, that's your risk. I'm not going to tell you you're on your building. Whereas I think there's a [00:10:00] little bit of that sometimes. And I think now though, the general consensus though, in London is that I think that the large majority of practices are there or moving towards there.

Stephen Drew: And you know, your role in. In terms of EPR, actually, what's quite interesting, they were one of the, one of the first, and what's interesting, and you know from that, because you, you, you're a man who's traveled the world and come to the UK and you work here now, but actually the UK, we were far behind compared to a lot of the world at the time in terms of the BIM process.

Stephen Drew: So it's completely getting there now. I mean. To touch upon it briefly, what have you seen much change since, since joining the EPR in 2015 to just before you were your next step or what the BIM world, how has it changed? The, the, the, the

René Van Zwijndrecht: funny thing is I don't think it has changed. I think there's a, there's a plateau that's been reached and a [00:11:00] lot of architects and, or.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Consultants have taken on BIM, but it's a, it's a surface layer. So it is, yeah, we do BIM. We do it because it's, it's kind of needed or it's, it's the, it's the new thing, but we really don't commit to it. So our drawings are still our final results. And we'll give you a model. But the model doesn't necessarily, you can't really look at it.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So, we're still stuck in a semi CAD world. And yeah, and it's still the majority of firms are doing that. So we're not, we're not putting out, we can't, well, it's, it's obviously there's many factors we can't put your neck out and, and take that risk. So there needs to be a next step, next change where it's, you know what, we're working in this geometry, let's move design intent.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Make sure that that design intent can be built and it ties in [00:12:00] really nicely to the golden thread and you know, don't, don't do it. Um, a planning model and dump it and then do something else, or then a subcontractor resolves your issues, take it through. So only then we really get to

Stephen Drew: get the results.

Stephen Drew: It's really interesting. And I appreciate, yeah, it's, it's, I've seen a few, there's been an example in terms of recruitment many years ago, where I helped find a bit manager, a job at a successful architecture practice. And I've had both examples where, for instance Where an architectural practices embraces BIM pushes on and they really, really have that BIM manager and that you have that that, that relationship you're talking about before, if you actually have the back end of the directors and it trickles down and therefore that person can make a lot of change, you know, a tremendously really good example of a good employer that had that.

Stephen Drew: And then I've got one or two [00:13:00] examples as well, where I remember before a company was asked. For a BIM manager, like we need a BIM manager, Steve. And then this person rocks up and you know, Oh yeah, we're going to change. We're going to change. And then it was the other example of, so imagine you're there, you're the BIM guy in the corner, and then there was an aspect of not being, some of the directors weren't on board, it was like, well, we've got that project and we're not going to.

Stephen Drew: Change that because that's in microstation and, you know, and it goes back to that thing of, do you really want to push BIM? And then there's a level of it at some point where it's like, if you don't want to do it, that's fine, but don't then say you're going to do, because you basically would been everything.

Stephen Drew: Everyone needs to be committed. for it to move along and the whole process. And, and that's why I felt that the really good skill of a good BIM manager, it requires a lot of patience and, and, and it requires a lot of the skills, but actually you're effectively change [00:14:00] agents and, and half of it is winning over people.

Stephen Drew: So how many countless times have you been in that situation where you've just, slowly you chip away and you get everyone to come with you, right?

René Van Zwijndrecht: Yeah,

Stephen Drew: no, that, that's

René Van Zwijndrecht: pretty few. That's, that's not a skill that they put on the, on the job descriptions or anything like that, but it is, that can make or break it.

René Van Zwijndrecht: If you either end up being just you just fall into what, what suits and you just maintain templates and you just. Go with it or you get in there, you get into the legal aspects, you get into the why are people struggling to adopt it? You know, there's many approaches from, you know, take on that first project, try and everything in there, make it a success.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Doesn't always translate to the next project. It's, it's, it's never a smooth, you know, what we're going to grow from this project if it's nobles next. So yeah, and, and then, and then, you know, there's, there's sometimes it's a half in half out [00:15:00] a manager slash architect.

Stephen Drew: The one person in the office was like, Oh, give, give them to Jeff.

Stephen Drew: You know, that happens a lot in architecture practice, smaller architecture practices as well.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Yeah. Well, yeah, probably medium ones as well. So it's I think the ones that are really successful is with those directors because you won't see the success. You won't see the benefits of it. It's it's, it's a long term game, but once it's there, you can do more.

René Van Zwijndrecht: It takes you a bit longer to get there, but you can do more. You can show more. You can probably you know, you can tap into better technologies where you could probably give better data, you can start tapping into maybe computational design and all of those things, but yeah, it's a top down, but, yeah, you've got to have that skills, I would say.

Stephen Drew: Well, I think there's some definite pillars of wisdom out there. And maybe there's some nodding heads in the BIM community, but the point is, you've got to keep with it and you can actually use, you can make a [00:16:00] positive change. And you've seen that happen at EPR.

Role at Berkeley Modular
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Stephen Drew: So moving on from EPR, because it's quite exciting in terms of the next step of your career, which I would love to, I think it'd be a great deal fascinating to discuss the fact that, so the EPR architects is a traditional architectural practice, but it's a good commercial architectural practice.

Stephen Drew: And you were involved in that process. So what you now do is you work at Berkeley developments in particular, you are the BIM lead for the modular division, which a, I think is quite cool. Cause in my head, I imagine you kick it, kicking ass, doing the BIM in the, in there, in the factories with the robots, you know, I kind of, in my head feel there's a bit of that Tesla thing, you know, where you're in the cutting edge and you're, you've got the factories, but do you want to give it like a little mental picture to anyone listening of what it is like, A, as a developer, but then maybe the modular aspects of that and how it all ties in with BIM.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So I was, I was pleasantly surprised when I found the role. I, I kicked a few [00:17:00] tires after my previous role, because I know that the variances in what is out there, the roles as far as the BIM. Career path what it is a manager in one office is a BIM coordinator in another office. Those kinds of things you work either as a consultant or you are project specific so on and so forth.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So I tested the waters from contractors to consultants, to big firms, you know, big names and all of that. And then I took a chance. I was like, okay, this is interesting. Job description. 50, 60 percent of it I've never heard of, so it wasn't just a, so the title was a BIM title, but then there was it was lean principles.

René Van Zwijndrecht: There was MES there was fabrication items mentioned in there. Okay. Well, there you go. So and what I was pleasantly surprised, I was blown away after the first [00:18:00] meeting. So. As a, the way I can sum it up is, is a, as a methodology that is trying to bring us to where manufacturing's always been so many, or not always been, but is so manufacturing is, takes logic.

René Van Zwijndrecht: They learn, they stop, they don't reinvent the wheel. If you think about car industry, you'll have one chassis that will be used by many different companies. You might have a dashboard. Is this place for buttons, but. Not all of the buttons are in there. But there's a, there's a, you know, a very, it's kind of, if you step away and you look at it, you don't reinvent an apartment because the apartment is, you know, there's two, three bedrooms, blah, blah, blah.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So I, yeah, I was, I was really pleasantly surprised. And then what I find is so obviously we are, we are driving to. I have digital twins built [00:19:00] and that's going to literally be used by machines to, first of all, we're going to have really funky robot arms that will pick up steel and weld. So that will be in November.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So we're looking forward to that. And then we'll have machines writing, cutting boards, moving them along, all of that. We'll have, there's a human component always at the end finishing things off. But the first time in my career something will be built directly off a model that I'm producing or my team and my team are producing.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So. It is so important. The model is all of a sudden the most important thing. The we are trying to, to create a manufacturing, um, principle, but we have half our foot still in a traditional design process. So part of what my team is doing, we trying to bridge that gap. So. From [00:20:00] stage from stage zero.

René Van Zwijndrecht: And we in a fortunate position where most other modular companies, or it's a subcontract, they get involved later on like contractors, which is a big problem in the BIM. Pros methodology, because if the stakeholders aren't involved early on decisions get made later and then it makes changes. So we're in a position where we can drive how things need to be done so that we can have a seamless flow of geometry and data.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So from from the day. Barclay decides that site's going to be modular, we're in there. So for me, that's the first opportunity where I can see I can actually use BIM properly. It's to be honest, we actually don't even talk about BIM that much because it's beyond that. And I'll, I'll get into that.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So it starts with our EIR, where we actually say, look. This is how you do it. This is what you [00:21:00] use our, our stage two models that are designed are actually we know. It could be. Right? So it's not just a, a, a, a planning approved model. It's actually that model we know can be built. And there is a 20% left off refinement.

Stephen Drew: It's, it's, it's fascinating to me.

Future of Modular Construction
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Stephen Drew: It's where it, where I find it interesting what you're talking about is because you have complete access to the factory. You are the developer. You are building this stuff. You are effectively laser printing. You know, like me and the student, when you're laser printing, you've got that feedback of basically, if you don't set up that model correctly, then it can print out and it's like stuff like.

Stephen Drew: The lessons I learned, you know, you've got the laser printing or the plastic printer before, if you set it up wrong, you can cut, you can get a hundred pound bill as a student. And I've had that before. Cause I didn't make the insides hollow and you're like, [00:22:00] Oh no, Oh no, I've racked up this massive cost.

Stephen Drew: But then at the same time, I remember before with certain laser cuts and processes that if you don't print stuff in a certain way, they actually don't fit. And I'm talking about things very basic. But effectively when you've got this. It's, it's what you're talking about for in terms of Berkeley developments and, and what are you doing in modular?

Stephen Drew: There's effectively, it does go out to a factory and you are talking about apartments. You're talking about amazing stuff and the advantage I see and why I'm actually on board with modular is you're not replacing quote unquote traditional ways is there's a, there's a revolution to it. What I quite like is it could be the end solution is if you get down all this process and what you're on about is the BIM process and all that involves, if you can get them decisions in and you effectively keep the cost down, then that, that goes to the end user.

Stephen Drew: And what we're talking about is potentially even solutions for the housing crisis, where you can rack up good quality [00:23:00] housing, a modular housing and make a difference. But it really is. You are doing it for real. That's the difference, isn't it? You've, you've got the factory, you're there working out the process and you, you're going ahead with it.

Stephen Drew: We're not talking about something that is conceptual. You're doing it live.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we haven't built anything yet. It's going to go next year, but we are, we are we're making amazing Progress. We are not only in, you know, the factory is the last bit of it. It's preparing for it. The type of drawings we are doing is IKEA assembly type drawings.

René Van Zwijndrecht: It's different, but we can only get there if by the end of stage three Everything is aligned and we can, we, you can trust that that whole process has been properly done so that it's coordinated. We so it's a, it's, it's a challenge to, to, to first of [00:24:00] all, fees, for instance, you, you, you pushing a little bit more work early on in stage two already.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So needs to change. So squeezing architects fees very early on doesn't help because they actually will resolve stage three level information already in stage two MEP. Much early on that granular level in that apartment. We need to know the insulation around those things. We need to know which equipment the real equipment is going to be used.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So we've thrown out the L. O. D. Process. We've written our own matrix because it doesn't tie into rebus stages. We want more much more, much earlier. And then it is, we have our internal client, which is ultimately the factory right next door, which you know, I don't want some, some angry guy with the iPad coming up and say, well, I've just sent 20 tons of materials down here and it's wrong.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Can't hide from it. [00:25:00] So And it's scary, but it's actually, in our virtual environment, we can test it, we can run analysis, we can do all of those things and again, by gateways and methodologies to get there, so.

Stephen Drew: It's interesting. And so you're effectively coordinating your own team now. So what would be really interesting for anyone that's kind of curious?

Stephen Drew: To me, now they work in an architect, a mainstream marketing practice, and we're talking about working for a developer, what have you learned in terms of. In terms of yourself or maybe more on your team, what kind of personalities do really well in this environment? Because I imagine it's a completely different scenario than mainstream architecture and it might not work for everyone But who kind of responds really well and who becomes a valuable addition to the team?

René Van Zwijndrecht: So it's especially in Barclay modular because we're actually a startup in a big Big business that's got very established ways of doing things and we are [00:26:00] breaking the rules a little bit or we're pushing the boundaries. So just use skype as it's so we are the kind of newbies. In the factory somewhere in Kent that are using all kinds of tools that IT is not supporting yet and all of those kind of challenges, but we are challenging because, because indirectly we are challenging the bigger Bob group, how they do things in their how do they appoint the consultants that's got to change the open for.

René Van Zwijndrecht: You know, paying them that fees they've got to accept that they've got to produce a more detailed elements so that we can coordinate it. So it's a, it's a whole game change of that, that approach. So inside Barclay Modular, it's really nothing is established. Things that I Land and template it's a year and a half or a year, something months ago.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Some of it's now doesn't look at all the same. So I continuously have to revise it because it is not, it's [00:27:00] not it's not what I'm used to, it's not a standard template that you'll use in an architecture firm or anything, because we have different Clients, you know, we have a manufacturing, we use a procurement, we have a logistics, the guy who's going to swing the cranes around different bits of information.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Have automated information. We actually have now managed to generate. Hundreds of drawings in 10 minutes by, by pressing a button. And that's again, that's, we spent months and months understanding what does it draw, what does needs to be on this drawing and what's the logic. Can we, I mean, what can we tell the program from that point to that point, always dimension.

René Van Zwijndrecht: So to get back to your question It's, there's a, there's a little bit of basic understanding of, of our software software, and then who knows I can probably go into you in two years from now, the software we're using now, we won't actually use. Cause things are [00:28:00] changing. We, we've so it's someone who's, who's willing to be able to operate in a, an environment where you roll up your sleeves, you open minded Someone who's also doesn't have tunnel vision step back and say, I just did this a week.

René Van Zwijndrecht: How can I do it in a day? And that's the manufacturing approach, which I've now started learning, you know, lean approach, cut the waste which I, I still find in, in, in our design consultants, um, firms is still prevalent. And it, it depends also on star individuals that keeps things in their head and doesn't share where, yeah, you have to jot it down.

René Van Zwijndrecht: You have to put the business intelligence on paper so that things can move forward. So you didn't have to go back at reinvent. So it's very broad, but. Yeah,

Stephen Drew: I like it. I think [00:29:00] I quite enjoyed your analogy there of you respect Berkeley. You respect the old ways, but sometimes to get the company forward, you have to be the disruptor in a good way.

Stephen Drew: Because what you're on about is changing for the better. And yeah, I agree. It sounds like to me. That the kind of person, and I liked your analogy where you're saying, look, you can use one piece of software, but you've got to move on. And it sounds like the person that works really well with you and your team is someone that's agile.

Stephen Drew: And it's basically, it's like, it's the person that you can't, you can't hide like in a big architectural practice on a big team here, you, it's someone that's out there. Willing to change. And, and the other bit, it kind of goes back to what we talked about earlier as like them skills you want about in terms of having difficult conversations about BIM.

Stephen Drew: You've got to be prepared to be on the, you know, next year, as you said, on the factory floor now and doing all this stuff and dealing with personalities and kind of standing up for yourself. So, but then on the other hand, you get the exciting aspect, don't you? Then of you're part of something interesting.

Stephen Drew: [00:30:00] Every day is new. You get different tasks. You learn. As you say, you share, you giggle, you collaborate, but there's a, it sounds like there's a real nice team effort and it sounds like it's not quote, unquote, a plug and play job. You're innovating. Everything's a bit different. Is that a fair analysis? Yeah, absolutely.

René Van Zwijndrecht: I'm learning every day. My team's learning every day. We actually. Much more technical than I've ever, I've been for many years. So I actually need to understand and represent our brand, our product. So I've got to understand every nut and bolt of that, that element and as a team as well. So it takes you out of that concern, especially if you've been in a BIM position where you don't need to understand the building.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Now I have to, because also, but understanding the building. Makes me make better decisions as well in implementing technology and all that but yeah, you're right. It is, it's it's I've got a, I've got [00:31:00] a lovely group of my team are pushing the boundaries. They, they, they've got, we all have the same goal.

René Van Zwijndrecht: We want to see those machines run smoothly and and but also we have the same passion about how the industry is going to learn from this. And we, we already seen changes in our interactions with consultants.

Stephen Drew: And I think it's going to grow from there. So, yeah. It's really fascinating. And I think again, it's kind of being ahead of the curve because we talked about modular.

Stephen Drew: It's such an obvious choice for the future right now. But the more and more, the more and more, even in terms of what I'm involved in terms of recruitment, the modular is definitely a prevalent sector. And it's, it's definitely going to go that way. So I find that really interesting in terms of. You mentioned next year, you're going to be gearing up.

Stephen Drew: You're going to be, you're going to be building things on site. It sounds like you're excited for architecture. What I was going to say now is what, it's a bit [00:32:00] of a stressful time. I don't want to bang on about coronavirus cause we're all fed up with the news. We're all fed up with that. And it's, it's a, it's a bit of a tough and tricky time as well.

Stephen Drew: It's really good to hear that. Things are going out to factory and, and you're kind of gearing up for that next level.

Advice for Job Seekers
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Stephen Drew: If for instance, anyone's in a bit of an unfortunate situation right now, where maybe they in between jobs, so, you know, like good companies that may be involved in the transport sector, they suffered and you have really good talented people out there that which could be demoralized.

Stephen Drew: Do you have any tips or pills of wisdom for someone currently looking for a job right now to soldier on? Yeah, I mean, it is, it,

René Van Zwijndrecht: it's hard. And let's face it, it is it's, it's a bit of a unique downtrend. The, and, and I've been, I've been recruiting, so I've been, you know, seeing people who's come, come out of these companies.

René Van Zwijndrecht: Um, I found people that are still in comfort zones or they're looking for the next comfort zone. [00:33:00] It's, it's you know, very talented people. I great series, put buildings together. But They, they're not willing to, they can't see that next step and that, that's fair enough. Know, I can see how coding computational design will play a role because you'll have, you'll have your Lego blocks to play with.

René Van Zwijndrecht: You know, have some standards. A lot of people think about modular is restrictive to design. I don't think it is actually. So it's, it's you, if you think about apartments, they're always rectangle, you know, they always have a specific. Format don't, you don't have many round apartments or rec or triangle apartments.

René Van Zwijndrecht: They always a certain set of rectangles or blocks or whatever. Once you can get over that and you don't feel you need to do that, and then you can do the niceties, so the 80 20%, so the 80% solved. Then do a nice facade, do the the surrounding, do the, the [00:34:00] core and the the common areas because that's where the.

René Van Zwijndrecht: I've, I've come across architects, we are nervous about it because it's like, Oh, you're taking away a lot of the same with technology. You know, we, we keep on talking about it. At some point we automating our drawings. Do we really need a big team? Yeah, we will, we will just do more and we'll do it in a better way.

René Van Zwijndrecht: And then things like that. So and there will be companies who will need less people if they embrace the technology, but it doesn't mean. It just means there's more efficiency and it means there is, there's more scope to do quicker things. Housing crisis is one example. If we can practice and do these things in a sufficient way.

René Van Zwijndrecht: You know, it's maybe that then we should be able to to crack it, but the current green every time we do a building, we reinvent that building approaches. It's so dated. So my polls and wisdom is just there's no one specific skill [00:35:00] necessary. I've seen people with computational encoding. Yes, those are important things, and they are on the on the edge of things.

René Van Zwijndrecht: It's it's a willingness to, to kind of. Forget what you've learned and relearn. That's where the difference will be. And then the people I've got got here is all of them had that kind of attitude saying, well, you know what yeah, I'll give it a go. And, and, and it works. So

Stephen Drew: I think that's great.

Stephen Drew: And I'd like to, I'd like to add that while it is tough, there are definitely still jobs out there and everyone can feel demoralized, but it's it's something we all have to go through. And, and I really, I spoke to perhaps so a client of mine, but also a good friend David Dreyfus before. And he had a really good suggestion of sometimes, you know, don't get too bogged down in the news.

Stephen Drew: If you kind of follow all the time, the R rating. You're going to drive yourself into this into this hole. And the point is there are glimmer rights. It is going to be tough, but you have to soldier on on a lighter note.

Personal Hobbies and Closing Remarks
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Stephen Drew: I'd love to hear Renee. What have [00:36:00] you been up to in doing Corona virus time to keep yourself enthusiastic and energized apart from people, you know, kicking ass and taking names in the Berkeley group and doing awesome modular, what have you been up to guitars or anything

René Van Zwijndrecht: like that just hiking and Yeah, just hiking, basically hiking through, through the UK, you know, places that you would normally not go to.

René Van Zwijndrecht: And then like, okay, get on a train, go in that direction. But yeah. And then obviously I'm a bit of a workaholic, so I'm really passionate about what we're doing here. So I end up browsing and finding other solutions, but. Yeah, just

Stephen Drew: hiking, coast and all of that. That's good. You've got to keep being outdoors because even myself, you can quite easily get stuck in this bit of hole, this hole right now, especially with working from home.

Stephen Drew: It's quite easy to get sucked in and you're working from home, then you finish, then you're at home and you just, you go round and round and I think I learnt as well is that you have to force yourself to get out, [00:37:00] have that gym membership or, you know, go out, as you say, go hiking is a perfect example. Be socially distanced and, and, and, but it's important to, to get out there because otherwise, yeah, you don't want to be stuck in front of a computer.

Stephen Drew: I'm very conscious. I say this while we're doing a digital interview, but it's the balance, isn't it? It's the balance. Yeah. Yeah. So brilliant. Okay. That's fantastic. And you kindly said before, you know, down the line, we can do some awesome, maybe more literal examples of show and tell, or, you know, how they've been processed and as plugged in on what you're up to, and I think that's great.

Stephen Drew: So as well as that now, where, if someone wants to reach out or they want to see all the work you've done and all the awesome things up you've you're up to, where's the best way to find you and where's the best way to find what Berkeley modular is up to. I mean by all means

René Van Zwijndrecht: link up with me on LinkedIn and have a chat.

René Van Zwijndrecht: We, we don't publish too much on our website, on Berkeley modular. [00:38:00] We are kind of quietly tinkering away and then at some points see what we are achieving. So yeah, by all means, every now and then I post a little bit of something on my LinkedIn but it's kind of watch the space because doing massive things that are, we release when we, you know, when we see our boxes go off at, that's, that's when we're going to celebrate and, and then expose a little bit.

Stephen Drew: Oh, I'm excited now. I've got to keep my eyes peeled. I'll be, I can't wait to see those updates and I'm sure we can talk about them then and I completely get it. You kind of work in progress. You know, you're learning every day. You kind of, you're getting the stuff done. And I guess the point is we're going to be seeing all these Matt or awesome residential when they fresh out of the factory.

Stephen Drew: Who knows who put me down for one running. Yeah. Okay. And hopefully we can, we go way back. So hopefully I can get a little discount on the, I can

René Van Zwijndrecht: get a discount and I can't afford those. We know that we're doing very [00:39:00] high end stuff. So unfortunately I'll see those boxes. Maybe we can arrange a truck to stop somewhere.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, maybe, maybe one day, right? One day, the Steve Drew special. You can, you can give me option B12 with the extra generous conservatory cost. Thank you so much, Ray. I really appreciate it. And thank you so much for your time. All right. Cheers, Stephen. Thank you.