Revit Rookie to Digital Leader: Jon Arnott's Path to Adeptus

0241 - From Revit Rookie to Digital Leader: Jon Arnott’s Path to Adeptus
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Introduction and Personal Journey
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone and welcome to the architecture social. So I'm gonna. Go back in time for a second. So in 2014, my directors, they pulled me into a meeting room. They pulled me away from MicroStation and they said, Steve, we are sending you on a training course for something we're gonna implement in the practice called bim.

And I went, what the heck is that? But I'll take a day off. Fast forward 11 years, we're all starting to use Revit. We're all doing all this stuff. And I want to talk about the world of tech, the world of bim, and learn a little bit from someone that's not only used it, but set it up in practices and also set it up in these digital agencies and is now got this amazing consultancy.

So we can, we are gonna unpeel the wealth of knowledge. So in the BIM [00:01:00] space, you might know of my guest, but I'm gonna let him introduce himself just in case to us. Mia Mortal Architects. John, how are you today? You all right?

Jon Arnott: Yes, very well, Steven. Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's it's a pleasure to be here. And yeah I think it's a long time coming to be fair.

Early Career and Transition to BIM
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Jon Arnott: I've been in the space, I'm trying to think now 2006 I think I left university, so it's been a while 19 years or something like that.

And certainly in the specifics around bi and digital, I think wholeheartedly launched myself into that about 11, 12 years ago. So it's, yeah, it's been some time and yeah, absolutely a ride if we can say that.

Stephen Drew: Oh, fair play. Fair play. Let's fast forward to then. So you were just for, so while you've been a bi manager BIM lead, so your humble roots were in architecture before that. So did you study and think that you were going to be an architect at the start then John?

Jon Arnott: Yeah, no, absolutely. That. Yeah, so I did the full course. Yeah, I was in my mind very much, I'm gonna be an architect. [00:02:00] That's the future of my life. And that didn't necessarily pan out, but that's not for any reason, as in nothing to do with lack of skills or anything like that. It was mainly just, I think, just reigniting passion around technology, to be honest.

And if I can give you one little tidbit right now, which is I think just, it always makes me laugh, but it really I think, helps bed in how I've gone from the design space into technology and mes the two things. My mom and dad's, if you, if anybody ever meets mom and dad, they'll always say, how was John when he was a child?

Da. And they always have the same story. And they're like, he was great, but he was fascinated by technology to the point where. Yeah, I broke my dad's super expensive Hi-Fi when I was a kid and I must have been about like three or four or something. So it was, I could crawl and all the rest of it and push buttons.

But I was so obsessed by what the buttons did that I just would keep pushing 'em. They'd tell me off, stop touching. They'd turn their back and I'd be back up there touching the button and touch the button. Anyway, I broke the thing. 'cause I was just so obsessed.

But that's just been a, I think that's just been a thing around my entire life. I think I still even remember the very first [00:03:00] touchscreen ATM when it came out. And I was just obsessed. The fact that you could touch it with your finger, just, that's just been me all round. So yeah, going through the architectural profession, doing all that good stuff and then realizing there's some technology stuff there that I can get my hands on.

Yeah, it seems like a no brainer to be honest.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's interesting because we, in architecture, you have all different kettles of fish going into it I'm always amazed because you've got some people that would write those dissertations. That wasn't my strength on either. I, I would the tech, I was, I thought at one point I was gonna be a visualizer John.

'cause that was my thing. I was the guy in the office doing free D Max and V-Ray. Even that's all changed now with the technology. But it's so interesting the year that you were in the tech.

Challenges and Evolution in BIM Implementation
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Stephen Drew: Maybe you can paint the picture because maybe some of our listeners, so I joke that I use MicroStation gosh, I don't even know if many practices even use that anymore.

But, so I was in, I came into the office in the days of CAD and there was that change to BIM [00:04:00] and I, a lot of practices use Revit now, but maybe you can set the scene. For anyone there? What was it like before when you entered the architecture? There was no Revit licenses in the office, right?

Jon Arnott: No. Yeah, very much. It's weird, right? So I like, I think I always keep saying to people, I think I'm the last generation, I think, to have gone through all the three phases of. Tool sets, if that makes sense. The drum board, CAD 2D, cad, and then obviously into 3D kind of BIM essentially. And it's interesting, right?

So like when I started at university and even before, obviously at school and things very much were taught how to hand draw, you had to drum boards, you did all the good stuff there. And when I entered my first practice, so that was the year out, the sort of sandwich year between the sort of the first party of the course and the second part there was drawing boards in the office.

Not everybody used them, there was people in the office that used

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jon Arnott: and then others who, who weren't use them obviously were using 2D card of some description. And I can't remember the name of the CAD package back then because it was one of the, the no name ones that it was just cheap and everybody wanted to get it 'cause they didn't wanna pay [00:05:00] for AutoCAD, to be honest.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jon Arnott: But yeah, that was how I entered the profession, right? There was no sight of BIM at that time or what we know today around kind of Revit and things.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jon Arnott: But there was certainly 3D software lists. There was things like sketch up in its early days and other packages obviously that were around at the time.

But that was the main ones. And then obviously back into uni, back at uni at the other end. And then you land on us at a practice and they were very much I'd focused. Again, there was drum board office for the old chap and yeah, and it kinda went from there. But again, that, that practice, that first one I fell into after university was very much they had a digital head on, but they weren't, I dunno they could take it or leave it.

They were like mixing the hand drawn with the two tech. And it was very much that sort of fluid between the two things. It wasn't a sort of a one, you start in some digital software somewhere maybe a bit different from how we are today.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's very interested. And how many people was in that practice at the time? Roughly That

Jon Arnott: The first one after university was six people. So very [00:06:00] small. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: wow. Oh my God. Yeah. And the practice where you first had to implement the bim, I'm just trying to get in my head. So how many people were in that practice when you

Jon Arnott: Same place. So six people. Yeah. Same place. So just to give you a bit of context to that, essentially, although it was a small business and it's not well known, even, I would argue outside the region, within Scotland but it is well known within certain clients' spheres because they did a lot of work with NHS and a lot of the universities and colleges are in Scotland and obviously some other big commercial clients people like FMC and things like that.

So they work in oil and gas. So the business had real good clients behind them, but you wouldn't necessarily know them from Adam if he'd never been in the area, to be fair.

But it was NHSI was gonna say it was NHS that came to the practice a bit like you described just a few minutes ago, who came along and said, we want to do two nuclear medicine departments, one at Perth, one at Dundee.

We've heard of this thing called Revit. Do you guys know what it is? And we are like, sure. Totally [00:07:00] know that. And we had no idea, but it was my job to figure it out. So yeah.

Stephen Drew: Fair play. No. And that's interesting being, and where I'm going with this as well, because now we have more defined roles in practices where you've got maybe the BIM leads or the BIM manager, and then you'd have the BIM coordinator and you have this structure, especially in large practices. And we can go onto that in a bit.

But in a practice of six, then you were the guy who was going to, you showed an interest in this and you went, don't worry, we will get this hospital in bim. And was it a case back then of John of trying to find this information online or how do you even start becoming the BIM expert from nothing in the office?

Jon Arnott: Yeah. Challenging, right? Because it was early days. This, it was the first I always keep saying it's the first implementation at BIM in Scotland. Whether that's a hundred percent true I can't give the exact numbers, but if it was not the first, it was one of the first, I mean it was 2006 and seven, right?

So it was fairly early days for that product. So how we dealt, how we essentially dealt with that is we obviously brought in our reseller who sold [00:08:00] the licenses and they did some training obviously. And basically what I ended up happening, if I'm honest, is 'cause the kind of person I am anyway, I literally had it installed, started playing with it, try to figure out how it all works.

Most of it came fairly naturally to me. And then it was really just the more complex stuff, when we started getting to things like how do we detail this thing, or how do we join these things together, or, whatever the questions were. Then I would for far questions back at that reseller say, look.

How do you do this? And it was just relying on them either knowing, which again, they didn't often know all the answers. They had to figure some stuff out themselves and then they would just we work out together. And I think we ended up having, at one point we ended up just having them come in for two days and sit with me just on my own in the boardroom, essentially going, here's the problems.

I don't know how to work it out, but I think I've got an idea. You don't know how to work out. Let's just work it out together. And that was it really. So there was a lot of that but very little online knowledge. So yeah, it was very much a suck it and see, hope to not break it too much, that kind of thing.

Stephen Drew: I'm amazed it was 'cause [00:09:00] in, in 2006, not many people even heard of it. So the bit where it popped for me, 'cause at the time I was working in a large architecture practice in London was around 2012, 2013. And I found in that time there was a skill shortage of people doing it as well, John. And it could be that it was a talented.

Part two equivalent from New Zealand would come who knew the software and would fast become one of the BIM leads in London. Was that the kind of the world that it evolved into then, John, from your experience on the ground?

Jon Arnott: yeah, no, absolutely. 'cause, I think it quite quickly became evident to me that it was about 2000 I'm trying to think now, trying to get my dates right. But yeah, it was, yeah, it was a few years, obviously after that. So it was because I'd been in that business for seven, seven and a half years, something like that.

So around the 20 12, 20 13 mark was when I did the jump whole wholly into BIM coordination and management of things. And yeah, even then, obviously as you've said, very short skilled. [00:10:00] There wasn't a lot of people out there that knew what they were doing. And that was why I got the jobs that I did over the years, because I was one of the few that had done it probably for about 10 years before that.

So people are going. You're just like so far ahead of everyone else. But the reality was, as much as that is true there was a lot of stuff I was still figuring out. There was a lot of stuff that was still coming at us at that point. Even things at bim coordination, 'cause I'm thinking about the time I was in that practice.

We worked with I think one other engineer that had Revit. And we, again, we would just figure out how we were gonna coordinate this stuff together. There wasn't things like there wasn't all the fancy sort of BIM coordination tools that you have these days, right? If that stuff didn't exist.

Yeah, it was just, it was very much a sort of trial by fly by night type scenario and you're just like we'll just work out. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's, it is. So I find that fascinating because then, so you went from a small practice to then Scott Brownrigg and Broadway Mellon. Now the reason I bring these up, both reputable companies, but they're large organizations, different beasts. And so when you've got a practice of six people, you're running it, you're maintaining the [00:11:00] project with six people.

But in, in these other companies, we're talking about companies with a lot of architects, a lot of stuff. And that was the first time I started to see this kind of, this evolvement from what was the CAD manager. So you've got this bi BIM manager, then BIM bi BIM coordinators. So it's quite strategic John as well.

And in the old days, like you said, there was no terms. And I remember the BIM coordinator where I was working, he was making the manual, and that was gonna be the BIM procedure. So maybe paint a pi, can you paint a picture for the audience? How much track as he goes into a practice.

Then and now into implementing bim. It's not a case of just, you plug it in and off we go.

Jon Arnott: Absolutely not. Far from it, right? Ev I would argue even these days as much as obviously people are a lot better versed and you've got more experts out there and things there's still a lot of strategic thinking that goes into that sort of stuff. But yeah, back then, like the managed strategy that you had to go through was unreal because you're [00:12:00] literally, for one of a better phrase, you're at the cutting edge of stuff or the leading edge if you want

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jon Arnott: What's going on. It's, it is literally plan everything out and then have plan B, CDE to follow that up. 'cause if it doesn't go well, 'cause you're still, if I think back again to that original practice, you're still hitting or having to hit deadlines like you normally would. But you're working with tools and technology that you're not familiar with at all.

So it's, you're always having to have strategic thinking about how do we deal with that. And there was, there's plenty of times where we would go, oh God, we've got the end of our knowledge or expertise at this point. Let's just take it all out back into a 2D world that we are really familiar with.

And then, get over the deadline and worry about it afterwards. Let's just think about it later. And I know some people still do that now, but, but back then I think there was, genuinely a reason for it. There just wasn't a knowledge or whatever to, to deal with that stuff.

But these days maybe I would argue, I. A little bit less reason to do that, but yeah.

Strategic Thinking and Overcoming Resistance
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Jon Arnott: But but yeah, no loads of strategic thinking and it comes down to everything, right? Most people [00:13:00] I think listening to this will probably know this anyway, but just as a kind of a reminder for everyone, and for those obviously less familiar is you've got, obviously the main part is the people element, right?

The minute anybody's involved and there's any change of anything, like that's your biggest challenge. The technology could be as good or as bad as it wants to be, but without people getting on board and wanting to try something new, that's becomes the biggest hassle.

So the strategic thinking is all always around that, and it's how you make sure you don't disrupt the business too much with the new technology, allowing people to move on and to learn new skills and all that good stuff. But also as I say, keep delivering to those crazy deadlines that we seem to have all the time.

Stephen Drew: And then did, was there back in the day, John? At the start, maybe some people in the practices who were really on board with it. And then did you find yourself sometimes campaigning with people perhaps, who have done a certain way, didn't want to do the change, didn't see the point, didn't want to do it?

How was those battles?

Jon Arnott: Okay, so [00:14:00] this is actually, I'm glad you've asked this question. 'cause to be honest, this was one of the things that over the years, it constantly surprised me. So I'm sure that anybody listening to this, whatever business you're in at the moment, there's gonna be that person that you can come straight to your mind that'll go, they're just gonna be a nightmare about around change.

They're just not gonna wanna change. It doesn't matter what, how good I tell them it, or how well I show them it, or whatever, or how much it's gonna change their life. Like they're just not gonna be the person that wants to change. But I think every business I've been in, obviously I've had that person, right?

And I've gone, that's the person that's just not gonna change and they're gonna be the hardest. So I'll just leave them to one side, right? And I'll focus on the folks that I think are gone. I want to change quicker. But weirdly, I think every time I've picked that person, they've actually come out being the person that becomes the biggest advocate for it.

Because they are such, dying the will of how they operate, if you can convince them to change or to see the benefit of the new thing that's coming down the street, as soon as they, they recognize that benefit they actually be able to become [00:15:00] Yeah. The biggest advocate for it. So I've, yeah, it's interesting when you're asking that question 'cause there absolutely is always gonna be those people, but I've just found, I've just found the ones that I'm like I'm gonna stay clear of those people weirdly have become my biggest kind of go for it kind of people, but it is challenging though. At the end of the day it's like any change program. And it doesn't matter whether it's, CAD software or something else. But ultimately it's about getting people inside. And I can't remember the numbers now, you might be able to help me with this, but you've got the early majority, the early adopter piece, and then you've got the mid adopter piece, and then you've only got the last to the party people.

But the thing is, it's always the same. You just need the, you just need a mass to get over that hurdle, right? You only need someone ridiculous, like 12% of the people to change. And then the kind of the snowball, eh, the snowball keeps rolling after that point, right?

So I think that's the bit for me is always like finding the people that you can tie yourself to that are gonna be your advocate, whether it's board level, whether it's technical level, junior, senior, mid-level, whatever. And then get a few of them on your side and then you're probably in a good place at that point.

And I [00:16:00] think the larger organization just coming onto that point. The more that's important because you can't just do it with one or two people at the bottom or at the top in those organizations. 'cause they're so complex and so wide ranging, yeah.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And so there's clearly an important strategy piece, but then do you find, John, is it important to also keep your, for example, where I'm going with this, say now? Do you constantly have to use the tool, John, so that you know what you're talking about? Is it the both ends of the scale or do you find that sometimes you do the strategy piece, but then you need to keep using the tech or you can't do it alone?

Or At some point? Because I find it happens with me in my current job. So I leave a team of five now. I can't do the version in my business of the day-to-day running, creating the bim the families and all this stuff. Do you have to be at some point okay, with outsourcing or what's your feelings on what I'm talking about here?

Jon Arnott: No, I think that's a good question and it is important to think through how you want to deal with that [00:17:00] because like in the early days, like when I wholly switched over into BI management, I was very much of the mindset, look, I can't do this full time. Like, when I walked into that business at the time, I was the only person doing it, right?

And I'm thinking I can do everything. I can te, teach people how to use Revit. I can upscale, I can bring in new bits of content, whatever it is that was needed, training material, whatever.

But there was a thing that went through my head was this program's gonna change over time.

Like they all do. Very much the case in my mind then was, maybe for two or three years, I can certainly use all the knowledge that I've gained over the last, say, seven or eight pre prior to that. But then I would actually have to get back into the tool set in some way. Or to your point, maybe use it ad hoc through the year essentially, just to kinda keep on top

Stephen Drew: Bits and pubs.

Jon Arnott: changing.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's true. If, I'll give you a stupid but simple example, right? Something like the stair tool in Rev. People love it, hate it, whatever, right? But it has developed over time and apparently it's made it easier to make stairs, but if I'm honest, I wouldn't know.

'cause [00:18:00] there was a point in time where it changed and I had only never been used to the old tool set. So if I use Revit now, if you were to ask me, open it now and I'm absolutely gonna use the old way of doing stuff, which. Isn't necessarily bad, but it's just, is it the best way? So yeah. I think to answer your point, I think if you can keep your hand in, it's not a bad thing.

But I think over the years as I've developed in my career, I've also realized that actually maybe my job isn't to know that stuff anymore. My job is to understand at a strategic level, what its capabilities are and how we can implement that and make the business better operationally, but then allow, somebody who's a bit more technical minded, who's using it day to be that person of knowledge in terms of how do we do a sta to day in Rev, for example, right?

So it's yeah, I've definitely become more at ease with that as a mindset. But if you'd asked me that I dunno, 11, 12 years ago, I'd be like no. I've got to do it. I've got to do it. But yeah, I've definitely kinda given up on that. Not,

Stephen Drew: may. Yeah.

Jon Arnott: not given up, but

Stephen Drew: maybe a mini one on that. I remember like the pride and pain I used to have of [00:19:00] being like a 3D max expert and stuff. And the architect does AutoCAD. The architect does a all the hard stuff. And now when I do marketing, I'm okay with using Canva on my mobile. It's a really strange thing.

Maybe it's okay to realize over time. I used to do it back then that way, but it's okay doing it a bit quick and easy sometimes. Or is that sacrilege in the BIM world? Quick and easy.

Jon Arnott: I don't think it's, quick and easy obviously might be a sacrilege in the BIM world, but no, I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's just, it is just recognizing where you, where your value is

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Jon Arnott: I think a lot of the time. You is my value sitting modeling in Revit?

No. Like I know so much more beyond that, around how we operate a business efficiently and stuff than my value sitting at that level. So I think if you can become comfortable with that, then that's ultimately I. How things should be. Yeah, I dunno. I think, I never thought I'd say this right, but I'm like quite happy that I'm not using her ev every day.

But then I know people who run computational or have run [00:20:00] computational consultancies in the past and they'll say to anyone now they're like, managing directors of somewhere or whatever, and they'll say, oh God, I wish I could just jump into Dynamo, or whatever it is. But but I think it's about a pleasure paying thing, right?

As in going back to that world is just 'cause you're, it's a comfort zone, right? So you're like, yeah, I love being in that space and I love creating something and feeling that you're giving value in that way. But it is also been, I think, comfortable where you are now in terms of how you developed in your career to go.

But I'm also delivering value in this new way, right?

Stephen Drew: Yeah I, that makes complete sense. You were, so you were the height director of bim all this stuff, large architecture practice, and we were talking a bit there about tools and I'm, hopefully I'm not bastardizing this too much, I know it's not a tool, but you left per se a lot, an architecture practice.

What me and you would traditionally for is the height of architecture practices and all this stuff to do something a little bit different then, which was more joining a company that was building tools, doing consultancies, and you were [00:21:00] in this technology Cool part of bim, at least it looked like for me on the outside.

'cause it's whoa, these guys are innovating, doing all this stuff.

Transition to Consultancy and New Opportunities
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Stephen Drew: Do you want to maybe fill the audience on that switch from mainstream architecture to doing something completely different?

Jon Arnott: Yeah, definitely. Think. First thing is obviously the years inside architectural practice when I was delivering sort of BIM and digital and whether it was on the tools or whether it was like, say a strategic level it became a part that like, first of all, ma skill set had started to run dry in a lot of ways because obviously you had new things coming out, like the computation stuff, generative design, all that good stuff.

And so where I started to see myself was actually, if I, again, coming back to that point I was making earlier around, if I can understand the capabilities of these new tool sets and kind of new ways of working, and then that's where my value is, right? Not necessarily being able to operate them.

But obviously within one business, right? There is some restrictions around kind of budget [00:22:00] or growth or, whatever it is, right? There's loads of different things that go on in those organizations. I. They're not always ready to make that next step. And whereas I probably was, so that changed for me into that consultancy world was that point where I was like, okay, I've done, I think, I, that probably mine, I think I've been there six years or just over.

And I'm thinking, I think I've done what I can do for this business. It's time for someone else to kinda take over and push that, push them on further than I can. But also for me to go out and learn, new skills and what a new set of people and see how we can merge the two things together, right?

That strategic thinking and all that good stuff, implementation piece with kind of these new ways of working on new tool sets. So yeah, moving into that space was great for me in a lot of ways. Because then I ended up realizing more than I really, I thought I knew what these things were capable of.

So we'd all had oh, computation does this, generative designs this and da, and I'm thinking, great. I know that. But yeah, when you got into that world, it was like. Wow, this is like blowing my mind. I, like it blew my mind when I walked into that space. 'cause I was like [00:23:00] not realizing how useful it could become essentially.

And the stuff that the guys before I joined them had been building for other clients. And it, yeah, it just opens this, for want of a better phrase, opens a Pandora's box, in the sense of, oh my God, this is all this opportunity. Where could we really take this? And I think that was the bit where then from my perspective in career terms started to then obviously really grow because then it's not just just working with one organization and one set of problems.

You've now got different problems from different organizations. Some of it crosses over obviously. But then it's looking at how do we use all these different tools and functions and workflows and whatever else, all that good stuff that maybe you haven't had the ability to use before or against, I dunno how to use 'em, but the people I'm working with do I can help solve the problem 'cause I understand what the problem is and then we can work together to create solutions, which was just, like I say, just mind blowing.

Stephen Drew: No, a Fairlight and I mean there's, I've got two things around this. So first of all, it is quite brave to do that. We were joking before about [00:24:00] switching careers. Me and you have both done it, moving to different gears, but at the time, just a quick one on this before we unpack what consultancy is, was it a bit scary almost stepping away from mainstream architecture to go into consultancy?

Or did you feel like, I've got it in me, I've gotta do it, it's now or never. I'm taking the plunge. Here we go.

Jon Arnott: I dunno. That's a good question. I dunno if I found it scary moving away from architecture. If I'm honest, because I guess it depends how you look at it. 'cause people have asked me that question before, maybe slightly differently of you don't, do you miss designing buildings?

They've asked me that obviously. And maybe there's a little bit mean, it does miss that, but but I think I enjoy technology so much that I don't miss it in that way.

And then I think the second part of that is, leaving like that sort of one organization scenario. So that's that one-to-one scenario when I'm working directly for them and helping them solve their solve their problems.

Leaving that space. And then jumping into this sort of consultancy world where you're now try to solve lots of problems for lots of different people. Is that scary? Yes, I would say so, because [00:25:00] you are now in a zone where there's a lot of things you don't know, like a lot of things that you don't know.

So like honestly, when I jumped in that space, I'd gone in there with confidence. I was like, yeah, I know this stuff. I know how this works, blah, blah, blah. But then suddenly you get there and you're like, oh yeah I dunno how that works. Or, I'm not really comfortable with this particular topic, or whatever.

So there's a, it's a huge learning curve, but actually if any, most people know anybody that's listening will, if you've listened to things like let's just say other podcasts that might not name they talk a lot about this idea of like, where you ultimately grow as a person is in that space where it's not comfortable or not the most comfortable space.

So yeah, so I think that's really from my point of view, where I've really enjoyed it. But it is scary, I'm not gonna lie. But, and it's a bad thing. Looking at it now, the other side of the fences, if you ask me this like even two years ago and I was in, in the midst of it, I'm like.

Yeah I'm breaking it, but, eh, yeah. Again, you grow from it and you learn, right?

Stephen Drew: We're all making it up to some extent as we go along, isn't it? It's just part of the process. So I really appreciate you being honest about it. I [00:26:00] felt the same too. I always joke sometimes that when you are leaving some something which is familiar or comfortable, everyone says you're crazy.

Don't do it. And then once you've done it for a year or two down the pub, people go, oh, I always knew you could do it. And I always think, no you didn't. I remember what you said at the time you told me, don't quit my comfy job, but here we are. It's just, I think it's really nice for others to hear who maybe feel that way.

But for whatever reason, maybe they've got a family this and that. They think, oh, maybe it's safer here. It's just nice to hear about that jump I got. One other point on it, John, just so that people know what you're jumping into, because I didn't know what the blooming hack the word consultancy meant for many years.

I know it now because you have different consultancies in business.

Unpacking the Entrepreneurial Mindset
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Stephen Drew: But it would be cool that if for the benefit of the audience you can unpack what that catchall term means or meant to you. 'cause it would be quite illuminating.

Jon Arnott: I think so just before I do unpack that, I was gonna just quickly say on that point you know the point about oh God, you're not doing that. Oh [00:27:00] my God, why are you doing that? Don't leave your job. Whatever. Like the amount of times people have said that to me over the years I've even got a friend, like when I was even talking about doing the BIM thing many years ago, he is oh, why would you leave architecture?

That's, but it's not gonna take off. It's not gonna be a thing. And I'm like I'm like, no. Here we are now. What are you talking about? And to your point now, he go, oh, it's the best thing he ever did when you, and he goes, he always jokes to me now when I go and see him. He go, so when are you getting your G six?

I'm like, 'cause he just thinks now I'm gonna be this multimillionaire somehow that I've gone on this whole other trajectory. Is what is, like I say it might not pay off, right? Let's be fair. Not everything, not every risk that you take will pay off, but I think that's part of being entrepreneurial in a lot of ways, right?

Like the taking a risk that you feel stretches you enough that you're, you're gonna learn from it and you know you're gonna get a new challenge and that excites you, but at the same time, not something that's so risky that literally it could all fall around your ears, right?

The Reality of Starting a Business
---

Stephen Drew: Yeah, just to add to even your point on that, I begin to, there's two different things and both are okay. You've got the entrepreneurs, the people that will go [00:28:00] out there and you tell 'em no and they'll do it anyways. And then you have people that don't have that. And that's okay too. And companies function from a combination of both.

There's reasons why not everyone's the founder, but we would talk, we were talking about all these businesses who set up in the space and it is really hard. I often tell people down the pub, people go, I want to set up a business. Can I unpick your brains? And I always say, the first thing is, I do not recommend do setting a business to anyone.

I, you gotta be crazy. But it's also the best thing I ever done. But it's also the most insane thing you ever do. And if you looked at the reasons to to do it well, you go I think I should just stay in my job. Thank you very much. But you have that in you, and that's okay.

Jon Arnott: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, no, I I was, listen, I can't remember what I was listening to. It was only a few days ago. And it was one of these kind of round table discussion things, and basically the conversation was about while everybody should just be on a bit more entrepreneurial and just set up a business and therefore things like cost of living [00:29:00] wouldn't be a problem.

I'm like, what are you talking about? To your point, not everybody's got that within them, and it's not. That's why that's a bad thing in my

Stephen Drew: Now, no.

Jon Arnott: I think it makes sense that not everybody has that. 'cause if we all went out and set businesses, then nobody would have anybody to do work for them.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. That is the worst advice I've cured recently. But that is, thank you for that. 'cause it will cheer me up. But like most people, you do not need, trust me, there is no frill. You either got the bug or you don't. I know someone that calls it the curse, the entrepreneurial curse and sometimes, I like that because I like to, it's a burden that I carry myself. I think. But we have it in us as well, John. I think in architecture, bizarrely we're set up for it because basically in university we can deal with pain at long hours and all this stuff and it's not fashionable and I don't condone it.

However, I've got it in me, whereas only in the fifth year. Now, I do not work in the weekends and no one's there. I always joke in this last thing 'cause. [00:30:00] We will unpack consultancy in a second, but I always laugh that I left a job where I was in, in architecture where I was counting the hours I would work.

You will laugh. I work up until six and I go, oh, I should be going at five 30. Really? But six. Ugh. And so I left that job, complained. Then you set up your own thing and the hours you're just working are crazy, but bizarrely they're going faster. I dunno. It's a strange thing, isn't it? Entrepreneurialism?

Jon Arnott: I've got a couple of points on that, right? I think the first one, it obviously, part of the reason, and we'll get into this later on but part of the reason why I think debt this exists is 'cause I'm very much of the mindset that I don't think it's, I don't think there should be a reason why people are working long hours, weekends, whatever.

But we can come back to that. But because it is the norm within the space it takes me to a slightly secondary story to this, which is I was at networking dinner a few weeks back. And one of the speakers he was I think ex a doctor, ex surgeon, and he'd set up his own app, [00:31:00] essentially, right?

So he's got a new kind of app and basically it re it revolves around the idea of tr, I'm gonna say this, but this is gonna sound terrible, but it's not that bad. It tracks parents' movements to and from school, right? How the school run essentially, right? And the idea is through the data, they can then start to work out with councils how to resolve some of these kind of roadblock things and, all that good stuff.

More public transport, all that stuff. That's the principle of it. But when he was talking, he was like, oh, I wouldn't recommend to anybody just set up their own business. It's the worst thing in the world, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like. First of all, you're the person who's done that

Stephen Drew: yeah. Yeah.

Jon Arnott: everybody it's terrible?

And secondly I don't think I would be that bad. 'cause to your point, honestly, the, I said this to him, I was like, if you come from architecture, I swear to God, you are probably more in the zone of being an entrepreneur than anybody else because you're already used to the long evenings and the long weekends and the not so good pay sometimes.

And all that kind of good stuff, right? Because that's what he was morning about is, oh, you don't get much money and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, mate, what you [00:32:00] talking about? If you get this right, you're gonna be, you're gonna be well, sorted. So don't worry about it. And also, like I say, one of the few industries I think where people are already in that mindset anyway, so they're like, I'm not gonna get particularly well paid.

I'm gonna work long hours, so let's have at it. It can't be worse than that.

Stephen Drew: That is so true. Never thought about it until now. Can you believe that is true? We can handle it. And crit strong. We're used to put putting up an idea on the wall and getting smashed to Aines where it's, which is extremely character building. It's there you go. May maybe the school of entrepreneurialism is the school of Architecture and we just don't, no one knows it yet.

Jon Arnott: Maybe I need to like trademark that or something. I dunno. But

Stephen Drew: You you are onto it. I got one quick theory on that before we unpack your consultancy. What consultancy is, and I think the downside architecture we're resilient. But however, the thing I noticed, and I think it's partly due to part one, part two, part three, there's this track of what an architect [00:33:00] thinks is the right way to go.

And even being a BIM specialist is a slight deviation from the mainstream narrative. And I do think that some. It's the stepping stones have been placed and I do find that a lot of people struggle with not doing it because I felt like an imposter stepping away from it.

Maybe there's something in there. So we're actually like the, we go with the building blocks of being the best entrepreneurs. However, we just still keep chasing that architecture dream. Part one, part two, part three. Build a building. There you go.

Jon Arnott: Yeah. And the problems come whether you're in university or whether you're in building a real building, right? Like you're always having to overcome a problem, which I think, again, is entrepreneurial, right? When you think about it, right? You know nothing. It's rare that anything on site goes smoothly, right?

So you're always coming up with it. There's a problem. How do we solve that? That is just fundamentally built into how we operate. And I think that ties neatly into the whole entrepreneurial world, which is, you've recognized the problem, you're trying to come up with a solution.

And then as you develop that, [00:34:00] and it doesn't matter whether it's a consultancy or whether it's a, an application or whatever it is that you're building. But the fundamentals of that are all the same, right? Which is, oh, I thought that the solution was this. Oh, I've come up with this new problem that I hadn't worked, I hadn't seen coming.

How do we solve that? And you just take each step at a time, which I dunno, I just find it fascinating. I like, and I appreciate, we're probably not, I dunno if we're unique in that, but I think, I like to think that we're one of the few professions that have that have that training, like you say.

Stephen Drew: I think so. Now for the Frustrated list that's gone, Steve. I. You asked the question and went on three different tangents. I apologize. No, you are fine. I'm supposed to be the one that's knows what I'm doing, but clearly not.

The Role of Consultancy in Architecture
---

Stephen Drew: So consultancy just 'cause people band this term around John and it can be so important or it could be like, what the heck is a consultant.

In terms of when you are leading consultancy teams and staff on these construction projects, John, what does that mean in your experience and what kind of consulting have you done in the real world that you [00:35:00] can give examples to for the listeners?

Jon Arnott: Yeah, I think the first thing for me consultancy wise is I think, look, the traditional term obviously is about, is that, is consulting other people, right? So it's the idea that you're sat there consulting with other people. It could be people that are helping you deliver something, or it could be the people that have got the problem, right?

But fundamentally, you're there to consult with them and come up with a solution. I think for me, consultancy has, can have bad connotations to it in some way because you have consultancies out there, some of the, maybe some of the better known names, maybe possibly that tend to like they're known for delivering these big reports and whatever.

And obviously they're great. They have a purpose, but often I think they can. Get, make people go what does consultancy really do? It doesn't do anything of real value. Which is, I think for me, why why I am in that space, right? Which is I'm not trying to transform the entire industry, but I think one of the things that, if I look over my career [00:36:00] in totality every time I've been in that consultancy space, 'cause even architecture is consultancy, right?

Is that you're solving real world problems for people with genuine solutions that work for them. And that's that what, that's what it means to me, essentially, right? So examples of that would be things like, if somebody's got, I dunno they've maybe failed a certification process.

You can go in there, look at the gaps, look at the issues that have come up and help them, fill those gaps, put corrective action in place and then train them on how to make sure that doesn't happen again. Or it could be things like. They have a manual process that takes four weeks for a team of three people, whatever it is.

Could we solve that or make that better, more efficient by implementing an automation solution to that? And by automation solution, it could be a number of things. That could be something off the shelf, it could be something that's custom made. Often in my world, it's been custom made stuff, right?

So we've looked at the specifics of that, that workflow and gone, okay, there's not much that you can take off the shelf to [00:37:00] solve that, so let's build you something that cus that's custom to you and how you operate in your organization. And then yeah, and just make it more efficient, right?

So that, that efficiency around being four weeks for three people and now becomes kind of 10 minutes for one person. That kind of thing. But that to me is what consultants about, right? Is excuse me, just back to that point. It's solving real world problems with real world solutions that things that you can use rather than just being kinda theoretical, if that makes sense.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, it's, I think you did a good job job of unpacking it. And then I think you get different consultants, different skill sets. So in my business I've even got an advisor who's gonna help me grow the business. 'cause I don't know everything. I wanna improve myself and they're very hands on.

That's just my preference. I like a hands-on consultant like yourself, who's done it before. I want to know that they built it, set it up and seen all this different stuff. But yeah, so it's extremely valuable. Maybe that leads onto then, 'cause now you've done the third briefing, so you've gone for, you've done many brave things, but so from architecture, [00:38:00] been the BIM manager, the BIM lead.

Then you've gone into. Contact and how set up this stuff done, the consultancies, but now you've paused, had to think about things and now you've set up your own business.

Transitioning to Entrepreneurship
---

Stephen Drew: So you the entrepreneurialism scope, if this was the part one, part two, part three you're at, you've done your part three now and you've set up your business.

Yeah. Do you wanna tell everyone about that and why you've done it, maybe John, and what you are up to at the moment?

Jon Arnott: Sure. Yeah. Um, yeah, so just prior to setting up, obviously as you mentioned, it was in that contact startup, which was grown out of the back of a consultancy that was specialized within a EC. So the consultancy was a, essentially a computational specialist in the space. And off the back of few of their engagements, they then recognized there was a problem, obviously it was initially a problem for one client, but then what they realized was actually that problem exists for quite a lot of people in the industry.

So could we build a product or a solution out the back of that, that could be kinda grown? [00:39:00] And it makes sense to a lot of people. And when I was in there, obviously originally I joined as part of the consultancy team to grow the consultancy. Team itself with the view that the co-founders then could focus on developing the product as a separate thing.

But at some point we merged the whole thing together. We kinda shut down consultancy and came together under the product side of things. And yeah I just, I think I realized like I, I was really enjoying being in the context space. I was really, and I was learning a lot, like back to the point I was making earlier about not being in a comfort zone, like absolutely outside the comfort zone, had never done it before.

I had no idea what I was doing. Learning lots of stuff every day. But, that was in a lot of ways a good thing. And obviously towards the end of that period, I think it was just, I got to the point where I was thinking I miss this sort of consultant thing like this back and forward engagement of, here's a specific problem that you have and here's a solution that I can provide and it can be done, turned around quite quickly.

Whereas with the contact thing, obviously it is built over a longer period of time, so you're still solving [00:40:00] people's problems, right? But you're not necessarily getting into custom or specific solutions in the same way as you would within the consultancy space. And also you're not necessarily engaging with people.

And I think that was a bit that I started to miss, to be fair, which is why I set up Adeptus Digital because yeah, I wanted to get back into being able to engage with people, their problems and then deliver solutions more on a day to day, week by week, month by month kind of basis.

Yeah, so that was that was where it, that's where it went to really. So essentially what I've tried to do. Is almost pick up a little bit from where I left off with the consultancy that I was in, which is pick up on all that good stuff that we're seeing in the space now around kind of automation, ai, all that good stuff, but also not forgetting any of the other stuff that's important that underlies that, whether it's business strategy for digital all the way down into kind of the BIM foundations and so on.

So for me, I think it's about having a holistic picture to that. I think that's where I personally, I think that's where Excel, the value that I bring to these conversations is being able to understand that whole [00:41:00] life cycle from kind of point A to point Z or whatever point that is that you get down the street at.

Stephen Drew: No, I think it is brilliant. And so for our audio listeners as well as well as digital, so I've got the website up here. Yes. John, I know you're an entrepreneur, you're gonna update the website in a few times, but I think really it's consulting. It is what's behind the scenes as well. But for people that look at your website, what is the domain and where can they find that online quickly, John,

Jon Arnott: Cool. Yeah, you can find us at Adeptus Digital. So no dot coms not do none of that good stuff. It's Adeptus Digital.

Stephen Drew: That is very trendy, John. That is very trendy. That's that's up there for me. I remember when, you'd have.io was the cool thing, and bizarrely I got lucky with the architecture social, when I was on the pandemic, I was frantically looking online for domains. and.com was free and I couldn't believe it because as the websites are just, it's I guess the original [00:42:00] Bitcoins, they're just not there.

Or if they're being resold, it's for a silly amount, isn't it? There you go. adeptus.digital. Maybe before you go, can I unpick your brains on one or two things, if that's cool? 'cause we're at an excite. So the time of recording this is like what? March, 2025. Now. AI is coming in a lot, and you're attacky, you are, you're, you're twiddling around and tweaking around as your parents said now.

The Future of AI in Architecture
---

Stephen Drew: What's your thoughts then on where the current market is going and how things are evolving? Do you have a sense of, especially when it comes to construction, BIM in particular or digital technology? Where do you think things are going and do you think they're positive?

Jon Arnott: I think to answer the last part, I do think it's positive, right? Like I definitely see technology being much more able to augment, I think what we do day to day. Obviously we've probably all seen the stuff that's coming at the moment around ai, particularly around kind of image creation and things like that.

And I think there's some. [00:43:00] Potentially some value in that down the street in the sense of, I think once we figure out how to get the AI to behave itself. 'cause, I've seen, I'm sure we've all seen actually some of the wor the world's worst kind of AI generated images that doesn't make sense.

A steer that kinda leads to nothing or, these kinda weird anomalies that come out. I think knowing how to use that technology is absolutely critical, right? And it's like any new kit, any new tool set if you think about BIM when it was new, right? Nobody knew how to use it, then it wouldn't do what you wanted to do.

So I think this is no different in that respect. And I think there's a, there's definitely a lot of learning to be done for a lot of people. But I know there's a lot of organizations in the space at the moment, some of the larger organizations, some of the smaller ones as well. Who are dabbling in that at the moment, right?

Just trying to get to grips with how things like AI can help them. And I've seen different different kind of examples of how they're using that, but one of the ones that I think is absolutely critical, all of the architectural practices that I know that I've been going for any like at least more than a year, let's say, have got a lot of [00:44:00] data out there right now.

I think, without getting too bogged in, into this topic, 'cause I'm sure a lot of people are gonna that's another thing, but we all know that data rubbish and equals rubbish it, right? So data is the fundamental thing underneath all of that, right? It doesn't matter how you look at that.

So if it's absolutely rotten at the first pass, then it doesn't really, it's not gonna help you much down the street. But I think where AI can help in that sense is it can start to realize what's good and what's bad, right? 'cause you can teach it. And where I see that going I think is becoming, he's selling initial is probably around the assistant.

Within the architectural space, right? So where are, maybe in the past you had these kinda technical gurus and things like that. I think they're absolutely gonna be critical to teach the solutions, all that good technical knowledge. But I think one of the things, I think just thinking of past, past my past career, I think we, architectural businesses genuine, generally have struggled, genuinely have struggled depending on how you look at that has been the ability to scale out that technical expertise, right?

Because most of the businesses that I've been in often [00:45:00] say we don't make much money in technical delivery, so let's avoid that and let's just do front end design. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, right? If that's what you make your money. But for me, architects is, or being an architect is about the whole sale thing, right?

From design concept to delivery of that final product. But it becomes more challenging in the modern world because we all know the, we've got all these new regs now and, much more complex and it's ever been I think if we can use things like AI to help solve some of those problems, or at least assist us with those problems, I think that would be a good place to start.

But yeah, I think the future's really bright for that kind of technology because at the end of the day, I, like I said earlier, it's about augmenting and I think what we do not replacing and also it's about, and it's the things that I talk about a lot now with the businesses is about saying, we don't want to get rid of people.

What we just want the business to do is to be more effective and efficient in how they're delivering what they do. Rather than having staff it's more about saying, let's use the staff that we do have, but let's give them some breathing space by implementing some technology that helps them do that.

BIM was an example of that, right? Like I've always said, [00:46:00] whoever went into architectural training. To then come out and do a door schedule, not a single one person, right? It's not anybody's gonna ever do that, but, so things like BIM obviously help with that process, right? And again, it's about crap and crap out, right?

If you put the wrong door in and it's got the wrong fire rating and all that stuff, then it's gonna be wrong on the schedule, right? But the fundamentals are creating that information that's essential to get the building delivered shouldn't, in my opinion, sit with a designer because I'm going yeah, you should put in the, what color it is, finish, size, et cetera.

That is a decision you make because, you know the rule set. But count and all that stuff, and scheduling all that, let the technology handle that. Just let you know, don't worry about it. So that comes back to what I was saying right at the very start of this conversation, which is about giving people the breathing space to, against those deadlines, right?

'cause we all know that deadlines are getting worse. Like I see it in places I go to all the time. Oh, you've got a deadline for Friday and we only got told about what we needed to deliver like on Thursday or whatever, right? It's insane. So for me, the technology has to first and foremost [00:47:00] augment what we're doing and give people the ability to breathe and to come back to what we actually get into this, the whole thing for in the first place, which is design.

So I dunno if that sounds a bit cliche and a bit oh, that's a bit lovely and fluffy, but I genuinely think that if we get this right, that's really what it's about. And some of that's my approach to the whole

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, I agree. I use it in my business now more at the data entry. And it was quite interesting this week that one of the founders of antral philanthropic, oh, basically it's clawed ai, which is owned by Google. He predicts that 60% of the code by the end of the year is gonna be AI and the a hundred percent next year such a radical thing.

I can see it helping architects rather than the opposite. Christ, if AI can build a building, a re, if they can design a refurbished building in Westminster and please the council and make it BIM compliant, I would be very surprised then. Then, John, do you know what? It's okay. The robots have got that, but my [00:48:00] gosh, I think that's complicated.

Enough

Jon Arnott: at just on that point, right? A use case that's always been front of my mind and I think it's all it is come out of a number of things. Like I'd thought about it before, but I would say, without getting, again, down a rabbit hole with things, but obviously off the back of ground fell and all that, the stuff that's come outta the back of that, you could use ai, you could l literally get it to learn what's the right thing to specify and what's not the right thing to specify.

And once when you're sending something that the door we've got these systems, or not everybody has them, but a lot of practices have them where you're, when you issue something, it goes through a kinda a drawing management or document management system. What if AI could actually read the content of that and say, oh, the keyword that, say it was, fire rating 60 on this door that's in, I dunno, fire lift one or whatever.

Oh the key word that's been flagged on my system says I'm not sure you should check that. Wouldn't that be a good thing? If it can just give you that sort of prompt to say, are you sure this is the right thing to be sending out the door? And again, I don't wanna necessarily harp one about it, but I've got a pet peeve from years ago, which is, you had various roles in the industry [00:49:00] which don't really exist anymore, or they've been sucked into other spaces.

But the sort of, the idea that who's checking drones that go out the door from, say, a junior member of the team these days, at one time on your title sheet, it was always drawn by check by, but I know a lot of businesses that, that don't have those processes absolutely nailed down.

But that's where I could step in, right? Like, why not have it just check that stuff against the keywords, against the things that shouldn't be going out the door, and then flagging that to whoever, whether it's the person sending it or a higher up in the chain and going, this is just being flagged. Can you just check that you're happy for that to leave the business?

I don't know, just my

Stephen Drew: It is a good idea. Yeah. We need virtual red penning. Like I've been there and been red penned by the directors a few times, and at the time you, you feel, oh gosh, why didn't I bloody move that riser on this floor ever? But actually it, there is a point that, you learn from it.

I was gonna say the last question from me, John is because there's gonna be a few listeners in here, there's gonna be people [00:50:00] where we are, there could be the entrepreneurs, there could be people in the past. But Will, you mentioned that you graduated in 2006. I graduated in 2009. However, people are studying architecture now, aren't they?

And there might be a few listeners earlier in their career and they're quite excited about your journey and you going into bim.

Advice for Aspiring Architects
---

Stephen Drew: Do you have any advice for someone that is earlier in their career?

Jon Arnott: Yeah, I think the first thing is, inquisitive, right? Like just I guess don't shut yourself off to anything. So whatever your, whatever things that excite you that are not just the specifics of architecture, but around that absolutely get into that. And obviously the obvious one is technology, right?

Because I think everybody accepts that's just becoming more and more a thing as we move forward. Yeah, just being inquisitive I think is the main point. And don't let, I don't know a bit of whatever excites you today kinda fall by the wayside, even if it's just a, it becomes a hobby or it's an evening thing or a weekend thing or whatever.

I think that's the thing I would say is like just keep being inquisitive and ask loads of questions. So of those that are around you [00:51:00] that you work with or indeed in other practices I think we're maybe. Rightly or wrongly known for maybe not sharing a lot of stuff around the industry. But I think that's changed over the years, certainly in the digital space, right?

Like a lot of the guys that I know, if they've got, if you've got a problem and you go and ask them a question they'll answer and vice versa. Yeah, I think the key thing is just to start making a little network that you can, and then just ask 'em questions of things like, like even if it's sounds like a stupid question, trust me, it's not a stupid question.

Like even today I'll have a question that I'm going, I have no idea what, how to deal with that, and I'll go ask somebody, right? So yeah, just ask loads of questions, be inquisitive. And I think that's the main thing. Just always be curious.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Wow. I think we should end on that though. I remember especially the network in the early days, there used to be hashtag BIM beers on, like on Twitter. That's showing my age now. And I remember when the B one M was not the super cool, it was still cool, but it wasn't the big conglomerate construction channel.

It was actually initially to promote Bim, the BIM 1 million [00:52:00] how times have changed yet. But I've still got my my Revit training course certificate in one of the cupboards here, John. But you wouldn't want me on your projects anymore, unfortunately.

Jon Arnott: I don't think I'd want me in my projects. I've got one too, and I think it was like from 2009 or something like that. So yeah, not much use to anyone, but there

Stephen Drew: That's okay. You, your talents would be wasted on drafting because you can help businesses and teams in terms of making kick ass projects in embedment and all the trends.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts
---

Stephen Drew: So thank you so much for being on here, John, and sharing all your wisdom. I really appreciate, always admire you from far online and there's been so good to speak to you.

But last time, just in case anyone that's got excited by this, they wanna reach out to you, they wanna ask you a more technical question or whatever, where can they find you online, John?

Jon Arnott: So yeah, I did this digital, which is our website or I am on LinkedIn as well, so you can find me on there. Just put my name in As on the screen and you should, yeah, you should find me.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. Thank you so much, John. Stay on the stage one second. And thank [00:53:00] you and the audience for listening. Whether you're thinking about setting up a career in bim. If you were that part two or recent architect, then go for it. Don't let anyone tell you can't do it. And and as a bus, a crazy business owner myself, it's so exciting to see people who are like John, who have done super cool stuff, other practices, and now can be plugged in to your business as well.

So get in contact with John, and thank you for listening. I'm gonna end the live stream now. Thank you again, John. You've been an absolute legend. Stay on the stage one second while I end this. Bye-bye everyone. Take care.

Jon Arnott: Thanks. Bye-Bye.