Inside the World of Architectural Project Management with Ruchi Sabale

Ruchi Sabale, Associate and Project Manager in Architecture
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Good morning. Good afternoon, everyone. I am Steven Drew from the architecture social, and I am joined here by Ruchi Savale. I'm like, did I get that right? Ruchi? Yes, Steven.

Ruchi Sabale: Yes.

Stephen Drew: Okay. Fantastic. Ruchi, it's a pleasure. Have you here and what a joy. It's a bit of a strange time, but hey, Donald Trump is not here.

This is free. This is free territory. . We might, we might have the vaccine coming out and all this stuff, which is great and it's just nice to take a brave and also chat a little bit about architecture. But one of the reasons, of course, it was good to speak,

discussed.

It's a pleasure for you to join us. How are you? First of all, are you okay?

Ruchi Sabale: Stephen, thank you so very much. [00:01:00] First of all, it's an honor to be a part of this fantastic platform. Architectural social. I love it. I absolutely love it. And you know, having gone through what you have been doing in the past few months, I think it's a fantastic platform for people to come together and sort of share and have conversations.

So thank you for having me. Thank you.

Stephen Drew: No worries. Of course. And so for anyone that hasn't met you so far, so we can, I can see here on your career as well, you you've been a project architect in India you've been a design consultant, you've been in the a senior designer. You've done a bit of interior designer.

You are like super lady right now. And then, and so you are an associate as well as that. And one of the reasons why I thought it'd be good to talk today is because you are a project manager. in an architectural practice, which is quite an impressive feat and not a role that is typically done. So, [00:02:00] well, first of all, how have you done so much stuff?

What's your secret? Is there a secret?

Ruchi Sabale: You know what? I have always sort of been super enthusiastic and super eager to sort of just try new things. I mean, that's just been, you know, in my nature. So perhaps that's given me opportunities as well, because, you know, you, many times you do. Go looking for opportunities, but sometimes sometimes they just come to you.

So I've just been really fortunate and perhaps lucky enough, you know to be able to try my hand you know, a little bit at everything just to get an idea. So but you know, I, I sort of perhaps just like to take a little step back and, you know, talk you through a little bit sort of interesting part of my journey, which actually started, you know, soon after I finished or, you know, when I did architecture.

Because I think that's what was the changing point or, you know, the pivotal point that I started thinking a little bit differently. I think all architects do, I'm sure you would agree. [00:03:00] Yeah. But I think what I got an opportunity was that in, in, I think it was part two experience that I've had, I had this fantastic opportunity to work with architect B.

V. Doshi, you know, he is one of the Pritzker award winners. He's the only Indian architect to have gotten this award, right? And at that point in time, it was absolutely pivotal for me to be able to sit with him to have conversations with him because your mind and your you know, you are so hungry to learn things and your, your mind is really tender you know, trying to understand different sides of architecture and design.

So he was really, you know, sort of I mean sort of contributor to what I did later in life. And after completing architecture, obviously I, I ended up doing my master's in urban planning from the school of architecture. And I think then my quest of, you know, sort of just sort of meeting people, you know, talking to them sort of just came very [00:04:00] naturally to me.

And again opportunities, came through and I just literally took any opportunity head on, you know, without sometimes you, you overthink and I have, I do, I do overthink a lot. I'm a victim of that, but I think at that point in time I just went with the flow. And when I did that, I think I learned a lot.

Stephen Drew: It's amazing. And so, so you basically, and I can see here, so your, your, your LinkedIn profile is like a quest. It's like a journey. I love it. It's literally like, and because it's important. You've actually practiced architecture in many different places as well, haven't you? So you, you studied so at first you studied in the school of planning and architecture in New Delhi and masters of urban planning, city, urban community and regional planning.

So that's quite interesting in itself. So, You were, you were initially interested in, in urban design and kinda large scale architecture. Is that the case?

Ruchi Sabale: Yes. Yes, I was. And I think, again coming back to Doshi, when I worked with the [00:05:00] Foundation, you know, which was his firm where I worked when we used to have these very odd lunchtime conversations with him he always used to say that, you know, an architect is like, is like the Indian connotation word for someone who's called.

The master builder, you know, who brings everything together. It was, you know, a bit of you know, throw in a little bit of philosophy, throw in a little bit of you know, history and you know all that sort of things together. So it was very interesting conversations. And the idea of. Someone who can bring things together sort of just stuck with me in my head.

And then if you zoom out of architecture, you know, you're into something that is called as urban design. If you zoom out of urban design or something, which is called as urban planning. So I think I had this very natural inclination of looking at the bigger picture and, you know, getting to know how things work.

So, you know, that's, what was my drive after finishing architecture. I wanted to do, you know, urban planning slash urban design. So.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. [00:06:00] And what's quite interesting is because we're talking about a large scale, but you've also so we're talking about some of the, the stuff that you did in India as well, which is amazing.

But you came to the UK at some point around what it seems you were in 2002. Yeah. 2007. So you had a nice year or two before the crash to the market,

Ruchi Sabale: but yeah,

Stephen Drew: you had a bit of a nice time, but then you joined Benoist and what's interesting because the work at Benoist that's very different. And I can imagine a lot of it was retail as well.

That is completely the different ends of the scale, isn't it? Compared to what we're talking.

Ruchi Sabale: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: What did you do at Benoit? Going to be lovely to hear about some of the stuff and how different it was, maybe, you know, culturally and what you learned and that different scale. I would love to understand them.

Ruchi Sabale: And again, a very interesting story with Benoit, Stephen it so happened that I was working in Mumbai with a retail farm again and at that point in time I was obviously, you [00:07:00] know, working as an urban, urban design consultant. And I was very heavily involved in getting planning applications, you know, in the Indian context, obviously, you know, talking to people, talking to public and getting some projects approved.

And I sort of, you know, had the idea and the knowledge base of sort of maneuvering you know, through the, through the statutory processes that were there in India. And there was a time Around that time that my husband and I, we sort of, you know, decided to move to the UK you know, just to explore, you know you know, widen the canvas a bit and see, see what's in store.

And this particular form that I worked with fortunately had a joint venture. With capital shopping centers, which was you know, and capital shopping centers were partners in blue waters, right? I mean, that's how, you know, they want to expand their retail and architecture expertise in Asia and in India.

So I was I literally handed over my resignation letter, but my director then in frozen was like, Hey, where are you going? Right. Well, why [00:08:00] are you going? Where are you going? So when I did say that I was moving to London, he said, well, hang on a minute. I think this would be an awesome opportunity for you because I feel that, you know, you're the right person to work cohesively with Benoît, being a part of Benoît and you know, telling them because they had already were going to do the concept design and the schematic design for one of the projects that I had worked on.

So anyway, I, I got telephonically interviewed just before Christmas by Graham Cartlidge, who was then the chairman. It was a fab experience. It was fantastic talking to him. Then eventually I, I did have a series of formal interviews and yes they felt perhaps I was the right fit and they really appreciated the fact that I brought in a lot of cultural regional understanding of the place.

That's what was required for the level of design that they were putting into, because you literally, you know, design concept, you can't just take a Western you know, ideologies and sort of just stick it in Asia or in any different cultural setup. So I think it was a fantastic opportunity [00:09:00] for me. It was like a jigsaw puzzle.

So even before I landed to the UK, I had a job in hand, which was really fortunate. And I consider myself really, really fortunate to have that. So yes, I did work on India projects after that. And then The crash was about to happen, but slowly what happened was that the Indian project started you know, they were, they reached, they finished the schematic design and, you know, they were sort of there was a calm time after that.

And then the Middle East was growing during that time, as we all know, and then there was only the money flowing from. The Middle East. So we worked and I worked on projects, which was a yes Island and the Ferrari world, which I think was a fabulous experience. Oh,

Stephen Drew: wow.

Ruchi Sabale: And you know as I said to you, I, I have just been very appreciative of the fact that, you know, you have an opportunity to learn something more.

So as you had rightly said before that, you know, I, I've sort of done the large scale as well as, you know, the interiors when I was put into, or when I was a part of this urban planning scale, a level [00:10:00] project suddenly there was a component when the project progressed. And they wanted someone to really take care of the interior science, you know, of, of someone who could perhaps churn out some small packages and interior packages.

And that I was, you know, I just put my hand up, you know, ready to do it. I, I sort of had, you know done it in India to a level, but, you know, I wanted to explore and just challenge myself to understand everything about you know, the, the design nativities and you know, the building regulations, et cetera.

Stephen Drew: So,

Ruchi Sabale: So the, the, the culture in Beloit was, I mean, the people there were absolutely fantastic. And I think that's what I think makes the workplace you know, a go to place if the people around are, you know, really sort of helpful in, in so many ways. And they had a, they, since they, it was a multicultural environment it was.

It was very it was a fantastic exchange of, uh, design ideologies, or, you know, even aspects like, you know statutory rules and regulations, which you could just literally pick up the phone you know, to [00:11:00] our colleagues back in Asia and then just learn from them. So it was great.

Stephen Drew: So they're, they're a really good company.

And that, and I guess what is interesting to talk about that period is because I was at part one in 2008. Going into 2009 and, and I remember I joined the EPR architects and, you know, they were a great company, but it was a tough time. There was redundancies there and it was, and that's why anyone during this period right now with coronavirus, I mean, there's definitely similar strains.

So that's why I always try to remind people that you can survive it. You can get through it. It's not, it's not going to be easy, but I imagine it was. It's tough for a while up and not you saying it's a good culture as well, but like everyone during the pandemic, you have to work extra hard, kind of survive it.

You know, it's, it's, it's not, it's not for the faint of heart. So what was it like at the night at the time? Was it all just muscling down, powering through on the projects you were doing and just keeping afloat? [00:12:00]

Ruchi Sabale: Yes, absolutely. And I think it was challenging. 2009 was extremely challenging. But you know, again, I, I think I was just fortunate enough to be in a team and to project that had a lot of revenue coming in and they had a lot of, you know, the projects were still ticking.

And although we had reduced in size in terms of the team there were, you know, we were thin completely thin, 60 odd people working on a project, we were literally. 50%. And we literally had to do you know, work extra hours, literally burn the candle at both the ends kind of situation. Right. But somehow we survived and I sort of, you know, managed to be employed and not being made redundant during that time.

So I was just lucky enough. Really to be, to just continue the

Stephen Drew: implant. You did, you did really well. And so you survived that. We all had a few bruises during that era. And so in total, you were just to kind of cause I had to visualize it for people. You were at Benoist for, for close to nine years, so.[00:13:00]

Ruchi Sabale: Yes,

Stephen Drew: that clearly says the kind of company culture they were, but also it's a testament to yourself. So you were that benign for nine years and then another opportunity presented itself. So you, you, you moved to Callison RTKL, right? And, and this is where we get a bit interesting because there's, there's, I'd love to hear about you joining Callison RTKL, but why I thought this would be a great subject is that I always get asked about project management and architecture.

Ruchi Sabale: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: And, and you kind of fell into this role, right? So, so we've done urban design, we've done interior design, you've done everything. And now you, you, you joined somewhere else and you effectively go into the role of project management. How did that come about then?

Ruchi Sabale: Right. So while I was with Benoît and again I think the credit also goes to you know, the directors who were there then.

Who were absolutely amazing in terms of mentorship and while I had sort of spent a lot of time working on different sectors from [00:14:00] hospitality to retail, you know, to residential in Benoist there was a part of me that. I just thought that I am not exploring my full potential. You know, I, I wanted to do something more like something that I could perhaps have a bit more, you know, challenge myself really, to be honest.

And it's so easy and you would agree. I think that, you know, in architecture, it is so easy to get sort of vision hole in doing something that you are doing for so many years and you get into that level of comfort zone. And I think a break out of that comfort zone is, is a step in itself. And I think that happened to me, that happened to me a little before I actually joined the Callison.

And I had this very honest conversation with one of my you know, lady directors at that, at that time. And since I had worked on a project in South Korea with her and I sort of managed you know, a few South Korean clients very well, she was really pleased with the way I had handled that.

situation. And she, she just came to me one day and she said, you know [00:15:00] what, Ruchi, I think you should, you, you, you should just look out a little bit. You know, you, I think you can do so much more. And I think that really gave me the confidence, you know, of sort of just following my natural skill sets.

It's something that came really naturally to me and I was genuinely interested in like I used to really pester my directors, asking them very often questions, you know, the free side of architecture is something that I really wanted to know, you know, how do you get a project? How do you run it? Where does the money come from?

And how do you manage the resources, everything, you know, all those sorts of questions. And sometimes I did get good answers, but sometimes I didn't really get any answers. So I really wanted to find out, you know, how, how do you seal a deal? Like for me, that was really fascinating. And you know, I, I when I was studying in India, obviously some people do have this natural temperament of, you know, they have the business acumen of sort of having a deal and, you know, going out there and, you know, selling herself and Sealing a deal [00:16:00] basically, but there are some things that I actually not taught in architecture schools.

You know, we are fabulous. We are great in design. We know the basics. We know how things work, but how to actually get business is something that I really wanted to know. And I think that's what was my trigger. After eight, eight and a half years and after having this push from my director and giving me the confidence, I just thought that, you know what, I really need to look into this and I just, you know, spend some time just literally introspecting what was I good at, I was obviously, you know, I thought that, you know, I'm great with people.

I have great people skills. I can understand. I can get the bigger picture. And, you know, my, my knowledge of urban planning, urban design, everything helped me. And sort of analyzing this and then something that was there in front of me was I wanted to manage. I wanted to be someone like a go to person.

If a project has to be you know, started or completed. Like, I really liked that idea. Of [00:17:00] being in control of situations. So and project management that time at Callison article was again, like a role that was, I thought that was completely stitched for me because I think they, you know, they offered, they offered this project management role and they actually train you as a project manager internally within Calisthenics.

And for me again, like I've just been. You know, fortunate. I just feel that you know, people who you meet in your journey of your career or even your professional and personal life have a lot of role to play in how you sort of progress through. And my mentor there, Steven Greenberg really was someone who.

Really told me the intricacies, the, the boring side of architecture put it that way, but it was so interesting for me. I love the legal bit. I love the financial bits. I love the, you know, the, the, the aspects of just simple bookkeeping. Like I really wanted to know, how do you do it? You know, how do you do it in real [00:18:00] life?

How do you manage a small 200 square meter project vis a vis, you know, like a thousand, a hundred thousand square meter project, you know? So yeah. And of course client relationship is another story. So I really enjoyed. You know, my time,

Stephen Drew: amazing. I think that's fantastic. It's such a nice insight. And like, I, I, I'm loving your bundles of energy.

I can see why you, you, you, you did really well in the role. And so what would be really interesting is, so now you've seen both sides. Cause I think some architects may like the idea of project management, you know, I'd love to be a project manager and it works for you. Right. And you love it. And you've done well.

And maybe you can tell us a few antidotes, a few things you learn, but at the same time, I would say it's not for everyone. And so what would you describe is the kind of personality that does well in project management? Or is there a few examples where. Maybe some people are suited to becoming an architect, then maybe it's more about learning [00:19:00] certain skills, which they can apply as an architect because not everyone needs to become a project manager, right?

Ruchi Sabale: Correct. Absolutely. And you are absolutely true. And I mean, this is a real fact that everybody cannot be a project manager. Everybody doesn't have the temperament to become a project manager. And I think What, what I learned and what I analyzed about myself was that really project managers, you know, needs to be fundamentals.

You obviously need to be people's person, you know, and project management, like in my dictionary, project management is more like priority management in my head. You know, I think we all are born project managers in our personal lives and our professional lives as well. You know, you, you are managing your life, you, you have a, you know, life is a project.

I feel, you know, so you, you tend to do these little tasks and day to day, and then everybody is a project manager. But really in architecture, I think there is so much thrown at, it is a, it is a mix. It is one of the most complex. feels [00:20:00] I feel in architecture, when you talk about project management, because you need to be really jack of all trades and perhaps master of a few, but you do need to understand everything that comes together in actually doing a project.

And I think most importantly, when you are working with people and I think I have learned it. You know, through my own experience is something that you really need to understand the strengths of people who you are working with. You need to understand who's a researcher, who's an expert, who is a planner, who's a creative, you know, who's a communicator.

And I think communication is a given in project management. You can never be tired of being a good communicator. You have to be a good communicator and then it's, it's something like you know, you, you can't you can't live you can't be a good project manager if you can't you know, express your ideas and thoughts and, you know, communicate from A to B.

So yeah. [00:21:00]

Stephen Drew: It's amazing. Look, I find that that's such a really great insight. And I always find that when, when speaking to someone, we can talk about client side roles, which involve project management, you know, work for a developer. And, but as well as an architecture and an architectural practice, being a project manager is quite a sought out role.

I think that's such a good explanation and explanation. And the other thing I always think about when speaking to these people is that what you have to remember is, and you tell me if you think this is a fair statement when you're a project manager. You're about champion in the design for the best outcome.

You're all about getting that project built on time in budget for the clients happy and you're obviously you're an architect, so you want the design tipped up, but you're not quote unquote the designer anymore per se, is it? Your, your role has changed. And, and that's the bit that I always think is that you can't have everything.

And that's the, when you're a project manager. you effectively step away from that lead design role, isn't there? [00:22:00] Yes. You can't do both. That's impossible. No,

Ruchi Sabale: that's impossible. And I think in a way that I think you have to have a level of contentment and acceptance that, okay, this is going to be my domain.

I have limitations that are, you know, you need to learn to be able to pass the baton or give the responsibility and have that level of trust with people that they perhaps would do it. You know, to their expertise and to their level best. And this is where I'm saying again, you know, that you really need to identify in your team who's really what in your team, you know, because there are doers, you know, there are researchers.

So you really, I think that's what I really learned within Callison RTKL that to understand people's strengths. I think that really helped me do my projects in a very effective way. Because and of course, when, once you know the you know, the expertise of different people and the strengths or your strengths as versus their [00:23:00] strength, you learn to delegate.

And that's what this project management all about, you know, a very cliche, but, you know, I, I've sort of. Grown up listening to this from my dad, it's like managing men slash women, you know, managing men is management, you know? So literally that, I mean, you tend to, you, you, you tend to learn the art of delegation or the art of you know, managing men or managing people.

And I, as, as I said before, and what you mentioned as well, it doesn't come naturally to everybody. So yeah, absolutely. That's why everybody can't be a project manager.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And look, I mean, I'm not a project manager per se, but what I do is I do run the recruitment team in architecture. I'm like the only company.

And you're right. There's a point when the team goes to a certain size that you have to, yeah, as you say, trust people, you have to understand people's strengths and weaknesses. And when, and there's an art form to making that work, but then there's the other side of project management as well, where you, like you [00:24:00] represent, yeah.

Obviously, the architectural practice that you're working on and you're working with the clients. And then, you know, there's that, there's that, as you say, you've got to do the communication back and forth, but it's almost that bit that you have to represent your team. And what I always find funny is that while.

Everything in the end result can be professional and you've got it all there. Like, you know, what it's like a behind the scenes as a project management, you can be right up to the line trying to organize things and it's human being. So a lot of the times things go wrong, right? Or part of your role would be like.

You wake up and you'll be like, Oh, we haven't got this because something's happened. So it's not for the faint heart in that way, because, you know, sometimes you've got to be like, I've got my meat in that free. I've got to go in. I've got to make sure everything's ready. And people go wrong, don't they? A lot of the time.

Ruchi Sabale: Yes, yes, absolutely. And exactly Steven. So this, this brings me to something else that I have learned in this processes. You know, you have to be able to understand the fact that There [00:25:00] has to be a contingency plan always like in, in my head, in my head, when I make a plan, whether it's a resource plan or a financial plan or anything in my head, I always think of the contingencies.

I always think of a backup plan B has to be mentally ready, you know, while you're actually crafting your plan a. Right. And things go wrong. It's a, it's a given like every day. And again, that I want to stress this every day in a life of a project manager is different. Every day is different. So if you are someone who, you know, doesn't like the, you know, the same old routine, then yes, project management may work for you because you know, it's, it's every day I've been to the office, And it's sometimes it goes as planned, sometimes it doesn't.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, so it's interesting. And so as well, and dispel this myth for me, because I now learn that project management, [00:26:00] a lot of it is communications, a lot of it is going to meetings. But my Terribly inaccurate picture in my head at first was that a project manager literally sits in front of Excel all day with Gantt charts, you know, But that's not what it's like at all, is it?

So that's a complete myth

Ruchi Sabale: then? Yeah, you could say that. Although Gantt charts and Excel sheets do form a major part of our lives. But I, I do think that you know, I think again, being, being in an architectural firm and being a project manager in an architectural firm gives you that, that window, that leverage of, you know, just speaking into and just participating in some fantastic design charrettes that you always, you know, thought that you missed while being a project manager.

So I think, I think it's a balance. And I think the most fun part of project management that I've really enjoyed is connecting with people. I think that's what is something that I've really enjoyed. And I've I've obviously honed on, on, on, you know, that skill sets of understanding people and knowing the background and just [00:27:00] understanding how, how the financials work and, you know, how things really work.

So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's ended up me having conversations with our legal counsel. I was together, but I think that is just out of my own interest. I don't expect anybody, you know, or, you know, everybody to have that level of interest, but it's, it's a, it's a little bit of everything. I think

Stephen Drew: it's it's funny because I think with recruitment, there's always a, there's an element of project management because each recruitment process is basically a project.

And then what I've learned is that in theory, it should be so simple, right? You just like you fight, you speak to someone, you get them a job, but it's. Totally not like that because it's the human interactions and the quirkisms of real life of stuff popping up of crazy things happening and people are timelines.

And so, so recruitment gets quite complicated when he, when I, in fact, it should be really simple. And that's why I giggle a little bit because the idea of someone basically, if you think project management is literally sitting in front of that Excel charts, the [00:28:00] point is, is that. Your brain's going to go an overload day too, because you're not following the Gantt chart because something happens, isn't it?

It's a problem, problem on side of someone and while they can't turn up, they put things back and, you know, and there's all these different, different stuff that comes up. So I tell you what, right. I actually had someone reach out to me a lecturer from. University of Portsmouth actually talked to me about project management and what it would say to students.

Now, I'm quite confident in terms of talking to students about how to go about architecture part one, part two, or the new apprentice scheme, which is awesome. I really always recommend that. I mean, what would your advice be to anyone that kind of has. an interest in project management, and maybe they're not too sure how to go about it.

Is there a few places you would look at first, or do you speak with a practice, or what would you your advice be to anyone interested in that kind of career trajectory?

Ruchi Sabale: Yeah, I think I think there are a few couple of ways that you could possibly go. But the most [00:29:00] important thing is that I think, um, the person should be able to, you know, be open to work in an environment where there are, there is a heterogeneous mix of either work or people because that's what's going to give him or her you know, a platform.

To, to explore your own capacities and capabilities, you know, to work because ultimately I think working together together is, is something that is a very, a part of a soft skill, right? And then it's a mix of, you know, you can always apply what you have learned in your you know, whatever you have learned over the five years or seven years.

But I think to apply them in real life is is a totally different aspect, but there are certain companies who do offer. You know, this part of the role where you are a part of our project management, a bigger project management team. And you know, you are essentially working under the lead project manager, but you are helping him or her in the day to day, you know, aspects where you get like a flavor.

You know, what is involved in running a project? [00:30:00] Yeah. And

Stephen Drew: I

Ruchi Sabale: would obviously encourage you know there are, that are on, on particularly on social media and just generally on you know, YouTube or so many other aspects. So, you know, where you could listen to different podcasts or, you know, connect with people so easily these days, you know, over Instagram or I would not, I would sort of.

You know, encourage them not to shy away. Reach out to them if you, if you know that you if you know a mentor, if you, if you, or if you know someone who could be your mentor, just feel free to reach out to them and don't be afraid to ask questions. Oh my God, I have asked so many questions, and I always do, but I always have questions in my mind.

Right? But I think you, you should ask questions. So just feel free to reach out to people who you think, or who you, you know, who you think would guide you and don't be shy. I

Stephen Drew: think that's really good advice. And the other thing I like is as well, is that over time, I mean, you organically arrived to project [00:31:00] management, but it was through.

You studying urban design and doing architecture and then traveling and then being involved in doing various aspects of project management in an architecture, in the role of an architect, and realizing, no, do you know what, I like this, that you kind of found where you're at now. And that's the other thing that I would encourage anyone listening to.

I mean, I studied architecture and then I moved into recruitment. This kind of how life goes. And it was because I, I. Like yourself. I really enjoyed the crates. I really enjoyed speaking to people. And I was the cheeky chap in the Arctic office, which was not the best, but I was good at speaking to everyone.

And, and you, you kind of but it is, the thing is if I didn't study architecture, then I wouldn't lead an architectural recruitment team because, because I know the industry and I care about it is why I do what I do now. And so what I'm saying is it's like the stepping path. And maybe I mean, the point is that the project management role came up through [00:32:00] you and your career.

And maybe if there's anyone listening, you, you don't necessarily need to be a project manager per se, or I always say, try being an architect first, or, you know, some people, you know, it's like, oh, should I do, I didn't do my part for you. But I worked at industry for years to kind of feel out what I liked and what I didn't like about it.

And that kind of informed my. Perception of what I wanted to do with my career. And I always think if you study architecture, you should at least go into architectural practice for a few years, and then you can use that experience to become a project manager or go into, you know, smaller scale interior design or go big scale urban design, or, you know, you might, you might go you know, forget this, I'm opening up a cake shop, but

Ruchi Sabale: if you, why not?

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Steven. I know when you mentioned about you know, we as architects, I think, see, I think the moment you are into an architecture field, right, you you tend to have an element of creative thinking. So I [00:33:00] think whenever any Any issues arise in, in project management life, right?

If there is an issue, I think the component of, of us being inherently architects and be coming out with creative solutions comes, comes really naturally, I think. So you should just have that confidence in you that you would be able to find, you know, a solution. When, you know, even if you're doing the Excel sheets and Gantt shots, right?

It's,

Stephen Drew: It's, I agree with you. Do you know what, you learn so many skills studying architecture, presenting, I mean, the whole, you know, getting a 2. 1 in architecture or whatever grade you get, it's really tough. So I think there's so much skills there. And what I like, which you quite highlighted as well, is because I think architecture is so broad and you learn so much.

It doesn't necessarily mean. That you are a quote unquote, a good businessman. No, it doesn't mean you have to be. I mean, I think it's a handy skill. If you run your own architectural practice, I mean, I've run a few businesses and I've learned the hard way of doing it wrong half the time. [00:34:00] And that's a good life lesson.

But it's like what you said before, when you were asking questions about how do you win work? How do you do all this stuff? Architecture is so broad. I mean, it's one, it's one art form to be like a really good front end designer, a really good delivery architect, but then running an architecture business or project management as a skill that is kind of like a whole separate thing.

Again, it's There's so much. So you kind of have to, I think the more you do architecture for a while, then you can kind of hone in on what you want to do. I mean, what do you think? Is that fair?

Ruchi Sabale: That is, that is Steven. And I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I, I always draw this parallel you know, in my family, everybody is into medicine and it's like, you know, when you are.

out of a medical school and we are out of architecture. There are so many specializations that are there at your disposal that you could possibly, you know, you could become an oncologist or a radiologist or an ophthalmologist and you know, or just become a GP [00:35:00] general practitioner who knows perhaps a little bit of everything.

Right. So it's, it's really, you know, a whole spectrum and that's, what's architecture actually gives you. It gives you the opportunity to Go from, you know, an interior design and focusing for product design, interior design, urban design, you know, actual hardcore architecture, urban planning, like there are endless possibilities these days.

And particularly, I mean, I, I happen to meet someone very interesting who actually did architecture, but then just went into some, you know, media and communication. Like she just thought that, you know, she was a bit more of a, you know, a media person. Architecture actually helped her to know her skill sets in that sense.

So you, you just have to, you know, do a little bit of introspection sometime, take a little bit of me time and thank God to, you know, the good to see the good part or the good side of this lockdown is it has given people time to reflect. And I think the positive way of using this time is really, you know, just [00:36:00] really understanding, you know, what are my skill sets?

You know, what, what am I good at? Do you, you know, do you want to hone those and, you know, just and cash opportunities with those. And I, and I think if you, if you do that you know, the work doesn't really become like work, you know, like, like a chore, you know, you don't have to do an extra effort. So, yeah.

Stephen Drew: I think that's great. Well, that's how we started talking last week, isn't it? Because of my my podcast was kind of like me banging my bowel on the ball and saying people should use this time in lockdown to try and be constructive. Yeah. Cause I mean, we're all, we're all guilty of it. And I just think that.

What's it's better to do something or learn from it than to look back and it to be a waste of time. So we can't go back. And hopefully this vaccine never does come out, which it sounds hopeful, but the point is there is light at the end of the tunnel. And what, what kind of person do you want to be at the end of the year to be like, Oh, that was tough.

I didn't really do much. Or do you want to, do you want to do something? [00:37:00] I mean. That's why I say, but no one's perfect and we all, we all learn along the way. And so, I mean, that's been really useful. What I would like to do, there's going to be, would be interesting to know though, as well. I mean, can you give me a flavor for anyone to visualize here?

The kind of projects that you've project managed or, I mean, what's been the biggest, craziest, or most complicated building that you've overcome and delivered? Have you worked on any big ones you're allowed to talk about or complicated projects?

Ruchi Sabale: I may not be able to talk about the ones that I would want to talk about, but but there are you know, this is a recent one and I think I've used it to get, I've used this project for my academics.

I, I, by the way, I recently just finished, you know, my part three, I wanted to do it. It wasn't my bucket list. So I've used this. But having said that, I mean, you know, it's a very, this, this one, this project it was a spinning. Studio. And it was a very small project, but You cannot even, you know you would think that a smaller project will be less complex and, you know, it wouldn't have as many issues as [00:38:00] you know, as a bigger project, but that's not the case, unfortunately, you know, you never know what is happening or what would happen tomorrow, even if you have planned and, you know, worked it out to the T, you don't know what would happen or what would go wrong.

And that's everything that would go wrong. Perhaps, you know, But perhaps went wrong. But in the end, I think what my biggest learning was communication was something that I learned for this project, because I literally project managed this and I was involved in this project from R. I. B. A. State zero to, you know, state seven, state six.

And There was an element of you know, and we are all guilty of it. Architects are all guilty of this. Whenever there is something happening where, you know, you are asked to do an extra bit of work. We don't ask for additional service or we don't ask for money or, you know, we don't ask. We, we, in a way in my head, and this is completely my take on this.

I think we [00:39:00] really devalue the, what we bring to the table. And that was something I, I really learned that if we as professionals, you know, devalue, then how would you expect our architecture profession to be paid better, you know, to, you know, for us to have good profits, et cetera, et cetera, you know, it's, it's, it's another, it's another podcast if you want to talk about it, but Yeah, coming, coming to the reality of the two issues were literally this communication, which had to be, you know, and not between perhaps myself and the client or, you know, the the form and the client, it was more so between, you know, the contractors and the subcontractors and, you know, the whole chain when the, when the project actually started on site.

But yes I think I'm not for the next project I would perhaps go to, I am not going to shy away again. To ask questions, to know the processes, to know what, what are the gaps. And I think it's, it's very important to be able to do that because only when you know the answers to these questions, then at least, you know, [00:40:00] what contingency plan you're going to have if things go wrong.

Right. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's the learning I've had from. You know, to tell you in a nutshell,

Stephen Drew: it's amazing. I love that as well. It's it doesn't matter the size of the project. It's problems that can pop up. So in this case, size doesn't matter. No,

Ruchi Sabale: it doesn't.

Stephen Drew: Absolutely. Size doesn't matter. Your problems are going to creep up.

You're like, hang on. This particular small. I thought this would be easy. My spinning class with people in. You're like, you guys, you guys are spinning crazy. That's. That's. That's amazing. All right. Fantastic. And look, I, I think that's really insightful. And to me, it's been really interesting. So what I was going to say now is, so you're on the architecture social and I love your energy.

Maybe we can get some ideas and some stuff going, but if anyone wants to ask any questions about project management, LinkedIn as [00:41:00] well. So someone can add you there. So it's Ruchi's Tabale. Did I get that right? That's absolutely

Ruchi Sabale: right. Do you

Stephen Drew: know what I'm doing in my head? You know, when you think about the wrong way and then I'm like, which way is it?

I'm kind of being like, Oh, it's definitely not that way. Alright, okay. It's not that way, it is. Ariba can add you there as well. That's really great. I mean, I'm really excited to Maybe when, if one day you can reveal the confidential projects, maybe what we can do at some point is maybe down the line, there could be a show and tell with a literal example where you project manage and overcome stuff.

Yeah. Cause I think this is, this is like a really nice info. And then the next one we can have like. The, the, the spinning class returns,

Ruchi Sabale: you know, Stephen, there's, there's one, there's one definition, you know, have you been ever asked why do you feel proud of being an architect or why, what do you like about architecture?

Like I've got this question so many [00:42:00] times very recently though. Okay. I'd like to read it out to you because I especially wanted to mention this and this particular definition. It goes like this. Okay. So the question obviously is, you know, why do you feel proud of being an architect? So I read this somewhere.

I'm just quoting. I smiled and said, a lawyer's income increases with increase in crime and litigation. A doctor's income increases with the increase in diseases, illness, and now the pandemic. But an architect's income increases with prosperity of people and the nation. Now, that, when I read this, right?

Literally brought a smile on my face. It may be way too philosophical in many ways, but you know, this is something that I was perhaps not able to pin it down in words or say it in words. And I think this is really it. Why do I feel? Why do I feel so glad that I'm in architecture or why I did architecture, even if it is not, you know what it [00:43:00] should be in terms of, I, you know, if you want to compare yourself to a lawyer's income or, you know, a doctor's income, for example, what keeps us going, right?

There's, there's, there's, there's an, always an element of a surprise in our lives, but I, I thought this definition of an architect was quite interesting, right? What do you think? I

Stephen Drew: think so. Yeah. I, I agree. And look, I think the architecture and the career, there is something so valuable. It reminds me of an associate at EPR who I was basically working for.

And when I was a part woman, he had the same thing where you say, I'm like, I've got a friend who's a lawyer who earns. Over a hundred grand. And he's so jealous of me. And I remember thinking as a kid, like, why is he jealous? He's rich. But what it was is you said, I went, why? And you know, the associates said at the time, he's like, well, I get to draw all day and make a difference.

Whereas The lawyer doesn't. It's literally about money. In his, in, in his friend's perception, of [00:44:00] course, you can get some solicitors that do great jobs. And the point is, is that architecture and look, I'll tell you right now in recruitment, you know, there's always the 1 percent where you can make a lot of money like everywhere else.

But for the, for the most part, if you're thinking architecture, it has to be about. Something that transcends money. And it's like yourself doing that project management, delivering the, the, the, the building, getting the people spinning in my spinning classes. That's all that's kind of, but that's what makes it worth it because that is that transcends being quote unquote, I like to use the analogy of.

You know, an accountant, I have a friend who's an accountant, so I was like, oh, it's a nightmare. Or being a recruiter consultant, like me, build a building, make it, make something different. But I agree. And that's what I say. So, I mean, look, if that's your passion, then the architecture is always rewarding.

You're going to get a few people saying it's not paid enough. And, you know, over time. Hopefully that'll change. I do think it's what [00:45:00] you're saying, though, of like, it's about retaining that value with the client. And I think what's good is the conversations and I've had a few podcasts and I think it's prominent in what people are saying.

And I like what you say, Ruchi, about a bit of extra work. It should be extra time. I mean, I've, I, when I ran the business before, you know, we had accountants, everything you do. Is extra. And we had a solicitor as well. Cause you've got to set up all the recruitment law, legal stuff. And let me tell you, when you ring up a solicitor, they have a little button there.

Of course they do. Steve and Drew's ringing, half an hour conversation under bounds. You're like, what? But yeah, you know, that's, and that's industry standards. And I think that The point is you can do it in a way which is not because I think people almost feel a bit embarrassed to ask for money sometimes, and that shouldn't be the case.

But what you're on about is, look, there's a bit of extra work, we can do a really good job, I need to keep the team [00:46:00] morale high, you get a higher output, and to do this properly. So you haven't got a bodge job thousand pounds worth of time, you know, if you, or maybe you can phrase it more elegantly than that, but that's the point, isn't it?

And I think the sooner we do that as as an industry, the, I think everything will go up because. My current theory that I've had for a while is that when the fees are low, it's the beginning of the end, but basically all the problems come from it because when it's lower money, you as a project manager get lower resources on it.

You get, you know, the time constraints, so there's less room to move or. You know, if the, if the fees are low, basically, if something doesn't go through the planning, I remember working on one building that didn't go through the planning and we had to do all these resubmissions and there was no money left to do it.

And what happened is that the team was less, the morale was lower. And so, and so unfortunately a lot of this can, you know, if, if the fees are right at the start, it can be the difference between. an [00:47:00] enjoyable spinning experience or you know, or just, you know, just literally spin in place to fit the analogy.

So, all right, I've enjoyed that now. So I'm going to say well done manager and doing everything in architecture. So Ruchi, you are, you have literally, you have from, from Urban design to interior design, architecture, now project management. I can't wait to see what you get up to next. I can't wait to see some projects and yeah, maybe we'll do a zoom show and tell.

And again, just for anyone who wants to add you, you are on LinkedIn, you are on the architecture social and you're open to all questions from a junior to an architect. Making connections. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Ruchi Sabale: I really enjoyed our conversation. And I think I hope I hope your listeners or our listeners sort of [00:48:00] get, you know, something out of this conversation and, you know, whoever wants to get into project management, I think it's just a matter of just looking at your skill sets and what you're good at and just make it like a second nature and go for it.

Stephen Drew: I agree. I agree. Fantastic. It's a shoot. Next time. We definitely need to get some video as well because people can't see the man, the the picture of the man and the cup of tea in the background. That's going to be a pleasure I've had. This is my curious Van Gogh picture in the background.

Ruchi Sabale: Absolutely.

Right.

Stephen Drew: Thank you. I could talk all day. Thank you so much, Ruchi. Oh, wait, that is my job as well, isn't it?

Ruchi Sabale: Bye,

Stephen Drew: Ruchi. Take

care. Bye. Bye.