Running an Architecture Practice Isn’t What You Think

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Unknown
Everyone. I'm in south London. I'm going back to architecture. I'm not drawing myself. I'm visiting Nympton. Let's go.

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Unknown
It's not easy. One of the business in the UK. You always want to have your own architecture practice in the back of your mind. I mean, actually, it's quite personal story. So it's been a really long road and with lots of ups and downs. Every person in that process that you encounter wants to stop you to you get building.

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Unknown
Yeah. The planets time we need to do the building. Building control tower when you see the building. I got to the clients then recently building the food. It's definitely going to take a day. So you're fighting everyone and you've got to justify it to everyone. And I think that is why we should always celebrating the architecture. Yeah, yeah.

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Unknown
Like to deliver a good building is so hard. Yeah, of course I like what I'm trying to say is, is it the journey or the destination?

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Unknown
Hello everyone. I am in South London at the moment, where I live down the road and we are in an amazing architecture practice named Tim Architects. So I'm here with one of the founders, not name Tim. We like them, but we also like Tim as well. Tim. How are you? You okay? I'm good. Yeah. I'm excited to be speaking with you.

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Unknown
Yeah. I've had such a laugh already. It's a really cool vibe we're going to show, and maybe we'll get some overlays of the studio as well. But before we talk about the present, let's have a little wine back in the past. Okay. Yeah. So you tell me how far we want to go, but. Well, it's up to you.

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Unknown
I mean, I don't, so the practice is 12 years old. It's nice. Actually, I think with the date 25th, 25th today, it might be. Yeah, I think so. Today is our 12 year anniversary. And you stuck with me. It has all gone wrong. Yeah. So we're having a night out, actually, on Thursday. Fantastic celebration. 12 years in business lines, are you?

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Unknown
Yeah, yeah. My local. There we go. Yeah. 12 years. So 12 years ago, we started business. Yeah, I've done Berlin 12 years because it's not easy when in the business in the UK, it's also hard as an architecture practice and getting going as well. So did you always when you were starting on your training, did you always want to, have you own architecture practice in the back of your mind?

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Unknown
No. Not really. It sort of happened a bit by accident. I mean, actually it's quite personal story which we've shared quite a bit, so I'm so happy to talk about it, but 50, about 15 about. Well that's the 12, 13, 14 years ago, Nimmi, who's also my partner. Yeah. Life. Well, cancer. Oh my God, she was quite young.

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Unknown
Yeah. And sorry to hear that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, she's all fine now. I, I mean, we're in our early 30s, both working in taxis. Both on that kind of, like, trajectory and, you know, but that was such a brutal kind of shake up for us. Yes. So we ended up taking out a bit of time from working, and, and, and, and I sort of, sort of almost fell into doing a bit of my own thing.

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Unknown
So we started off it was really just me at the kitchen table with the laptop doing like kitchen inspections and things. And really and, and when I left my practice, my previous practice, I didn't it wasn't like I'd engineered this new stuff. It wasn't like Ken leaving Foster's right. It wasn't like, yeah, yeah, you know, I didn't have a name I didn't have, and I didn't take any clients.

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Unknown
I just went out there and tried to find clients. And so I would say that was actually quite a good learning experience for the almost like any architect, because you're out there and all you've got is yourself. And like, some, that kind of, you know, and your, your skill set that you've picked up. Yeah. And so you, you and you're doing, you know, the first bit of work I did was like, I went into, like, local estate agent where they, I went around a few of them and I just gave my card out, and I got a call, and I was like, this guy's looking at a house.

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Unknown
And he wanted to know what he could do with it, and he said he'd pay me for two hours time. And so I went down there and I just, like, sketched some ideas on the back of the estate agent's plans, which I obviously factually unusable. But just to give him some ideas about, like, how much could he offer?

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Unknown
Like, what could he get, what he, you know, he was looking to develop it. So it gives you a really kind of close understanding of what your value is as an architect. Yeah. Which I think we don't really get. All right. And we don't really understand for quite a lot of our career. So that was quite a good experience.

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Unknown
I think in a way that was quite good. His parents like, you know, I and you know, there's other facts. It's like, you know, he'd been out with kind of like sandwich boards saying like, you know, free architecture. Yeah. I did that and that was great. It's kind of like, quite nice to see architects get out there like that.

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Unknown
So that's how he started. And, and it kind of just grown quite organically from there. So we kind of, Yeah. So we kind of grew, you know, we took, you know, within six months we had one part one working with us. Congrats. First employee. Yeah. Well, we started off with someone doing like part time and part one, and then we've kind of gradually grown from that.

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Unknown
And so at the moment with nine, I think the biggest we've been 12. And yeah, and through all those kind of like changes in size, we've had to kind of adjust and learn what that means. Yeah. In terms of like an implication of like how we run the business. So it's yeah, it's been yeah. You know, quite a journey.

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Unknown
There's been ups and downs and like the client contracted and, but I think any practice would have over at that time. Yeah. It was interesting you mentioned that the kitchen table and you a new personal story because pre-pandemic days is. I used to be in the office 9 to 5. There was none of this kind of hybrid.

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Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah, none of this stuff. And you've got a beautiful dog knocking around, but, in the old days with me, that was just not possible in a larger practice. So it's very, very different, isn't it? Yeah. Well, I think that was, you know, that that was when I stopped working in practice and then was kind of, that was when I was kind of started to do things on our own.

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Unknown
So we started off kitchen table. But I'm, I'm actually not a fan of working from home. Oh, now we do if I can. So, yeah, kind of going into, like, cafes and then. Yeah, like, oh, we're even, like, going to work at, like, friends offices. Yeah. Like, if I get a spare desk one day I'll be like, oh, can I just go in what we found out and say, like, just to get a bit of kind of, human interaction and then.

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Unknown
Yeah, I think after we actually, we had the office in our house downstairs. Yeah. We were lucky enough to have, like, a bit of space that was like, not part, you know, so slightly separate from the house. But that's also not an ideal situation now available. I feel like if you've been working in the office, you kind of crave that for me, myself, especially if you training someone up.

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Unknown
And you mentioned like a part one, very hard to do that remote. My goodness. I think you need to be in the office. And it's you've got this beautiful creative space. We got all these materials. It's very kinetic. It's there's a lot of learning involved. I'm not too sure how you can do that. Yeah, I mean I think I think it's a balance and I think we, I mean, the way we, the way we do it here is.

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Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. New hot new party people joined us. New ones in particular, starting off in the off office five days a week and then, you know, we. And then if people once people are kind of comfortable. So this is one of the business I turned out on today. Do not disturb that. Don't worry. It's wrong. But I think, just keep it in a little bit, isn't it?

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Unknown
I mean, I quite like it because that's the. That's the reality of running a business, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Stuff is going to be nice. This calls things that are going on. It says so a few things we like three times like three times because it's like I know you go oh my gosh this really is. And then it's like I'm just passing Gail's you want a bacon sandwich?

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Unknown
You're like, yeah, but this is this is how it is, you know. So I want to go back a little bit as well, because you were so right. I really thought it was really interesting. Your story of you, Russell, in that work, it's not glamorous doing it at the start. You kind of go from the house and essentially you get all that stuff.

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Unknown
Can you tell me, was there like a little breakout moment after doing the doodles on the stage and where you went from, because you've worked on some great projects before? I was looking at what you've done. You've worked on these prizes, you were part of these teams, and suddenly we're building something up from scratch. Internet has got some great projects now, but you have to start somewhere.

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Unknown
Ryan. Yeah, I think, I don't know if there's been a break. I mean, that I think, you know, like we go at I think we had a project shortlisted for Dog Moving Proof by 2017. I think we had that same project in design. That was great. And I think actually the moment was more like we took a moment.

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Unknown
It was around. It was maybe just before the, pandemic actually. So it would be in July 2020. I mean, kind of like so try to have a think about what we would stood for as a practice and what we were trying to do, what was all in, what was our work saying? What were we trying to do, you know, what were you saying?

00:09:52:12 - 00:10:21:02
Unknown
And that was quite, an important moment because we sort of sat down and we kind of we've done quite a bit of work and, so, you know, I think we've always been because we sort of started to practice organically and we didn't go in with a manifesto. We just sort of started doing work. And so to say, the way that we work and I'll ethos kind of evolved through doing stuff and building stuff there and, okay, they're quite small, you know, that small, projects.

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Unknown
But they kind of captured people's imaginations. You know, they were always amazed that they'd have this life, like, you know, they'd get picked up by, press here, but also we get published in like, you know, we've been published like, in Japan, Korea, Sweden, Kazakhstan, like you name it. Like people somehow find these tiny little projects that we think we've done interesting and, you know, engaging.

00:10:46:02 - 00:11:17:04
Unknown
So, that kind of happened naturally, when we meet with. So we then reflected on the work that we've done with what we've done and said, what was it saying to us? And when we looked at it, we said, well, actually, they're all different. What we see is the people that we were building for. Yeah. And so that became the, sort of driving ethos that we, you know, that we create places and spaces that reflects that are inspired by and that reflect the people that are going to use them.

00:11:17:06 - 00:11:41:02
Unknown
And that works at the kind of domestic scale. But it's also something that I think is really, has a resonance on a larger scale. Yeah. And that was the thing that really kind of allowed us to, start to secure bigger projects and, and bigger kind of, things like, in case some frameworks and things, because I think I, you know, I think that's really important.

00:11:41:02 - 00:12:01:24
Unknown
And I think that gives us a slightly different voice, and a kind of place within, you know, within the industry. So, yeah, that was an important moment. Yeah. Fair enough. I mean, so we would you say that then, is there a running theme of your design ethos, or is there anything in the way of a particular. I don't think there's a house style person.

00:12:02:00 - 00:12:22:07
Unknown
I think you approach each project differently based on the client, based on the person, based on you, based on how you go in that things. Yeah. I mean, I think that we, we, we try not to have a house style. Yeah. And it's, it's ultimately about a process. I think you, you, you there tends to be some themes that you can pick up in our work, but it's actually more about process.

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Unknown
So our process is that we kind of start the project with a kind of intent. We so we can have the single The Briefing game, which starts the process. And it's basically a way of exploring what people want to achieve with the project. Yeah. And it's great because it's because it's, it's, it's it's visual. It's not a non-verbal.

00:12:41:18 - 00:13:17:11
Unknown
It's been great for helping us to work with like, different, like community groups and empowering people who otherwise sometimes marginalized within that kind of briefing process. And that's what sets the foundation for it. And really, we always kind of, you know, we always refer back to it. And so through all the decision making, we're kind of like, well, actually, how does this, you know, the benchmark is the break is the agrees them and, and also, understanding of what the people who get to use that space with one.

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Unknown
And so that's the founding principle that guides everything that we do through the process. So nice. I mean, what's interesting about it as well is that it it kind of affords you moments of, sort of playfulness. Yeah. Which is something that people always say about, our work. And sometimes architects can find it hard to be, you know, it's a serious and expensive business to build stuff.

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Unknown
And so architects can find it intimidating to sort of, you know, have a bit of fun with it. It's, to us and, you know, it's a, it's a serious, but it is a serious business. But I think there can be moments of joy, lightness, playfulness. We we find that this kind of approach affords that because you can find small details and small things.

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Unknown
You know, just looking at some of our projects on the wall like to know that, you know, the one with the yellow door is that that a lot of the colors and the kind of motifs in that project came from the houses. We found it. Yeah. And the clients found it. It was like a family house I've been in when I bought it, it had been in the previous family for like a generation, like, you know, a 78 years note.

00:14:29:03 - 00:14:48:22
Unknown
And so there's a lot of, like, old stuff like wallpaper and like weird bits of furniture and internal windows and things, but you could sort of sense there'd been a lot of love in that house. And we in the client base recognized that. So actually it allowed us to say, well, actually, let's take things from what was that and bring them into the new, design.

00:14:48:22 - 00:15:07:12
Unknown
So, yeah, I think having that foundational and that expectation of it being something that's for the people that are going to use it. And it gives you that freedom to be a bit playful. Yeah. Fair enough. I mean we were talking a bit before this and I profess so I'm a part two, I'm an eternal part to forever.

00:15:07:12 - 00:15:23:04
Unknown
I haven't got my part frame and I really enjoyed the places I work. But they were big projects. I was in the big company. I never really ran a project. Cradle to the grave. And we'll, we'll bring up the projects in the bed, but they really playful. You enjoy it. I can see you light up when you're doing in.

00:15:23:06 - 00:15:45:08
Unknown
It's also very tough, isn't it, to get a project going when you're in business as well. What does it feel like tend to kind of do that for yourself. Get it going. The client's obviously happy with it at the end. It's a beautiful space. How's that feel? Like it feels great. And I think, I mean, I think as I think you're it is hard to maintain that enthusiasm.

00:15:45:09 - 00:16:13:06
Unknown
Yeah. But it's, it is important to do it. But I think it's also what, what I think what we've learned is that you you should not nurture and encourage the enthusiasm of your team. Yeah. Because it's, you know, like we've done the hundreds of projects, especially kind of the smaller domestic projects. I think we've yeah, we've done something I think we've had like something like 400 on our books.

00:16:13:11 - 00:16:47:03
Unknown
Now, not all of those turned into projects, but I would say probably 100, probably delivered 100 company. Nice. Maybe not being on site all the way through the finished projects or did that 100, but and nothing compares to that feeling of going in and seeing seeing that project finished. It's really amazing. And what we want to try and do is, like, give the space for our team to feel that sense of pride and excitement.

00:16:47:05 - 00:17:06:15
Unknown
And I think that's what we tried to do, say, you know, as we've grown the business, we've we've had to step away from some of that day to day stuff a bit more and try and create more of a kind of, framework that can work that can kind of ensure that they're delivered more consistently. Yeah. And so that's what we that's what we really try to do.

00:17:06:15 - 00:17:28:05
Unknown
And, you know, we rely on having great, really experienced men as a team. And, you know, our two nice experienced team members have been with us almost, I think, since the beginning going, well, a testament to you as an employer, isn't them. Yeah. And I think, well, and to them, in terms of their commitments of what we do and how we do that.

00:17:28:07 - 00:17:52:05
Unknown
So, yeah, I think it, you know, what we're trying to do is build a sort of something that can have a consistency, can have doesn't rely on us and our like, input and also that the voice practice is the voice of everyone is part of it, not just us. Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of that's I think, you know, that's where we, I think got to.

00:17:52:07 - 00:18:11:11
Unknown
Yeah. Now, and yeah, I think, you know, that's, you know, how do we take it forward is another is the next question. Yeah. Well, it's it's even hard for me. I mean, we preface before this, like, I came down, I was really excited. We were balancing stuff. I've got my team. We're working things out. I do find it hard myself.

00:18:11:13 - 00:18:32:08
Unknown
But I've also realized you can't do it on your own, isn't it? You touched upon it there. I mean, what's great is also, there's the bond between you name, Nim and Tim, which is quite interesting as well. How does that work as well? Do you find that, like, you've got that there, then you've got the wider team in the family as well.

00:18:32:08 - 00:18:55:11
Unknown
And, what's it like running an architecture practice with a close one? Is it a blessing? Can it be frustrating? Do you have those conversations at home and in the office as well? Well, we try to avoid having to, but I mean, there's basically pros and cons. Yeah. Yes. I, there's good things and, and difficult things. And I think you just got to embrace it.

00:18:55:11 - 00:19:16:20
Unknown
I mean, I think it's like I'd say this like, you know, we've also taken feedback, you know? Yeah, yeah. A few years ago we had some comments and it's a we we're quite structured, actually, with our H.R. Even though we're still a smaller plexus like we have like, I know, I know, appraisals in 15 months catch up to that one.

00:19:16:20 - 00:19:30:20
Unknown
So and it's all kind of like quite dumb for me which is, which is really good. And we get so we get a bit you can feedback that one of the basically that was that like I didn't like it when we all get in the office. Yeah, of course it's, you know, I mean, arguing maybe or maybe bickering, like whatever.

00:19:30:22 - 00:19:52:19
Unknown
However, we would define it. So, you know, actually mean to me, we have, we have couples therapy. Right? We're very open about it. We like in the diary. Yeah. Yeah. And that's been really helpful. I mean, it was, it was, and. Yeah. And that that is extremely, I'm 40. Your accountant told us we can set off against our budget.

00:19:52:23 - 00:20:12:11
Unknown
That is. I definitely think it's a business expense, but. Yeah. Yeah, but I think I, I think you have to recognize that it's really hard. And then I think you basically have to try and then put things in place to try and create those kind of, invisible barriers between home and office. But, yeah, it's like five seconds now.

00:20:12:11 - 00:20:31:03
Unknown
It's I can see I can see the advantage. I just also do have two architecture friends that are husband and wife when I, when I go to dinner with, yeah. You know, I'll keep their names anonymous so they that they don't know where it is, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They know exactly who they are. And then, yeah, I remember years ago kind of being in the middle of it.

00:20:31:05 - 00:20:52:13
Unknown
Having said that, though, the bond between them is so powerful. And I remember then years ago at the dinner table going, oh my gosh, like, I don't know, is is I can't say his name. Oh, I well, Ryan, I was like on our Ryan's goes spy that. But they were really strong together. And I think that's the thing as well, because what I admire about you as well was, wow.

00:20:52:17 - 00:21:11:24
Unknown
Because we talked before this and I profess that, the architecture social is the creativity, but there's also the business and it needs to stack up and needs to be compliant. It needs to make revenue and we need to give back. We need to do all this stuff. And you touched upon it briefly there with he joked about the couple's Ferrari.

00:21:11:24 - 00:21:31:14
Unknown
Is it expensive? Oh well no. Like this is a world you have no idea about before you go into business. How did you bumble through it? Because I'm still bumbling through it. Yeah, you kind of walk into it. Biden is then like, road path or like a book that you can do to whack up an architecture business.

00:21:31:16 - 00:21:48:21
Unknown
I don't know if there is one, but how did you even get going? Is it learning by doing? Yeah, what it is. I mean, I don't know if I'm the right person to also let's speak about it to that. Damn. I'm. I've been searching for this person for long and white. Yeah, yeah. That's I mean, it's a really good question.

00:21:48:21 - 00:22:06:24
Unknown
And how do we get. Yeah, we we're still so far from where we should be, I would say. But, and I think, I mean, so, I mean, if you, if you do want to set up when you like, that's, that's like this is two pathways, right. You can get to a senior position in practice, learn the ropes of how they doing it.

00:22:06:24 - 00:22:30:02
Unknown
If I stop being part of that kind of like it needs a it and then you kind of take that over into your own business. So many of you weren't really senior, particularly senior in all, previous practices. And so we didn't really have any, any great understanding of how, how to do it. Like we never got to put a fee together.

00:22:30:04 - 00:22:59:14
Unknown
You know, beyond the actual architecture, we didn't really get much very close to the running of the business, so it was all new. Now that's good and bad, right? Because the good thing is that you can do things your own way. And you find your own way to do things. That's gig that gives you the different, you know, that, that makes it makes you more unique and you make sure that the way that you do things aligns with your own values and ethos.

00:22:59:16 - 00:23:16:03
Unknown
Bar is much harder than just kind of like taking over someone's step by the knowledge and and so the skills, I guess, from what you already know. So it's been a really long road and with lots of ups and downs, we're still really a long way from where I think there's loads that we still need to do.

00:23:16:05 - 00:23:38:01
Unknown
We've, we've had a bit of help from business coaches and we have got help in and that's been great. I think it's also like talking to colleagues like talking to people. And you know, I think it's a I really great at sharing with each other. Yeah, maybe not as much outside of the profession. Which I think would be helpful.

00:23:38:01 - 00:23:56:18
Unknown
But you know, how, you know, if you look at a good practice, you'd be amazed at how how people would be happy to open up for you that way of working and show you, and you can then and then people like, you know, you can learn from each other. So yeah, it's just it's been a slow process.

00:23:56:18 - 00:24:20:23
Unknown
And I would just say that there's still loads that's still like for us to learn. And yeah, you know, I think it is something that architects struggle with and I think just in general as a, as a profession, maybe we can be I think we could be better business owners and business owners. Yeah. But it is hard though, Tim, is that you go for architecture school.

00:24:20:23 - 00:24:40:02
Unknown
I remember mainly frantically trying to get that project over the line. Learn stuff. You get your first job. I professed about my first interview going somewhere, and it was a small architectural practice and they were saying, can you do a technical drawing? I was like, I'm not really sure I could, you know, because there's just so many things and that you spend it all this time.

00:24:40:04 - 00:25:04:04
Unknown
And then I always find that, especially if you I mean, you mentioned accidentally you went into a business, but, I mean, that's a whole nother world as well. Maybe I can flip the script, Tim, as well, because you mentioned you're about eight people now, which is fantastic. And I can feel the vibe in the studio. I walked in and we'll bring it up on the screen.

00:25:04:04 - 00:25:24:24
Unknown
You know, the office will take you feel good. It's a great place to work. Or I'm most touched upon. Before this, you were in a big company as well. So in a lot in recruitment, I get some people who are in large places and I go, great, I want to work in a smaller studio. Now, it's not that simple in my opinion, because it's a very, very different environment.

00:25:25:01 - 00:25:45:24
Unknown
Do you have any advice for people? More in the in the team players here. What kind of person would thrive in a, in a, in a culture that a and a company like name team? Is it someone that's a thorn in us? Is someone that can, Hey, there as we go. This is very different than working in the large juggernaut, getting the massive airport off the ground.

00:25:45:24 - 00:26:10:23
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you kind of, you know, we I guess we put quite a lot of responsibility, even on to, most junior members of the team. Yeah, because the projects are small. Like, we can only really have one person working on something. So you do get to do all of it. I mean, you you get we have it structured so that you, you know, the more junior and you get more oversight and more support.

00:26:11:00 - 00:26:34:15
Unknown
But I think you do. You need to be happy doing all of that. Like, and I think there's less place, maybe less places to hide. Like, yeah, you know, in a bigger practice, you might end up doing a package for, you know, at the CI package, you know, like, the fact is, eating patterns for a considerable amount of time when you make a project.

00:26:34:17 - 00:26:50:18
Unknown
And I can see why that might be frustrating for people, but, you know, you're, you're really focused in on something. You've got the time to do it really well. Yeah. You've got the resources behind you to kind of support you doing it. Yeah. I think you have to be a little bit more nimble and little bit more agile in the small patches.

00:26:50:20 - 00:27:11:14
Unknown
You know, we don't have the technical support that you might, you know, in a big fat system, technical person, you can just ask any question. We don't really have that. You need to just go and look at a building, like, so, like, work out self. So yeah, I think it's not necessarily for everyone. No.

00:27:11:16 - 00:27:35:14
Unknown
And I think yeah, we do. Yeah. We, we, I think we have, we're really lucky to get really good people get good candidates. And yeah, I think, I think actually is quite it's quite hard to do to be fitted doing those small projects. Yeah. You have to have a lot of different attributes and a little bit of multitasking.

00:27:35:16 - 00:27:57:08
Unknown
Unfortunately, that would rule me out. Yeah. I, I don't know about multitasking, but, you know, you probably I think you need to. I think you need to be adaptable. Yeah. And I think you also need to have a level of autonomy from quite an early stage. Yeah, well, I think the thing is, like the. I think there's a place for every sort of everyone within.

00:27:57:08 - 00:28:15:13
Unknown
Well, there should be a place like when we did architecture, I think public thought. The problem is that we don't recognize that. And sort of, that's actually a bigger part is having like a broader range of like those. Yeah, it's a really big buzzword at the moment, talking about AI, talking about all the stuff as a small business on them.

00:28:15:15 - 00:28:37:02
Unknown
I find it could be an enabler. Yeah. But also, I think you can get lost in the sauce and I worry sometimes, especially what's it going to be like studying architecture now? Yeah. You know, I was the last year in university. Sorry. I was the first year when they put the fees up right from. So my friend's the one who was in the architecture marriage.

00:28:37:02 - 00:28:54:04
Unknown
He was like, I got the first year, so I'm paying 1,000 pounds a year. And I felt hard done by paying 3,000 pounds. Now it's like 9,000 pounds. A study off the NFL is the first year that had to pay fees at all. How are you? You what you were. That's imagine. Oh, yeah. So you fell hard done by.

00:28:54:09 - 00:29:12:21
Unknown
Yeah. Quite rightly because you would compare the two years I didn't ever get going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You remember I remember being in uni and Yeah. My colleague was just like, here we go. You're on the next one. But it's quite scary that, isn't it, that it's 9,000 pounds to study architecture. Yeah, it's really scary.

00:29:12:21 - 00:29:37:17
Unknown
And I think, I mean, they put so much they put it raises any questions about, I think, well, I mean, once we talked a bit earlier about, you know, running a business, the problem is that they're teaching architecture based on a business model. The needle goes, resists. And they've structured architecture as a training. That also doesn't stack up anymore.

00:29:37:17 - 00:30:13:04
Unknown
No. Nowhere near so that's a it's a huge problem. Like we've got a we got to sort that out, both in terms of, like lifting salaries so that students can realistically. But think about going into professional. Yeah. Yeah. Spending five years, nine grand as five years. And also we need to teach you differently because I think like the way we take, the way it's going, it's still being taught is in the majority of universities is, not, you know, that it doesn't it, that that model doesn't exist anymore now.

00:30:13:06 - 00:30:37:23
Unknown
So I think it's got to I think it's got to change. And I just yeah, I mean, I, I really feel for, students coming through, and I totally get all the sad, I get all this that concerns around. Hey. Yeah. But you're very open about that. Which I respect because it's kind of, it's a prickly issue.

00:30:37:23 - 00:31:02:24
Unknown
Some practices might not want to talk about that because it's like, oh, well, if we talk about it, it's almost like making it real. Let's just accept it like it is equally the where really value what you. Then you think we should pay more? How do we get that going in the right direction here? Because it's not as easy as just whacking up the fees on certain projects.

00:31:02:24 - 00:31:24:15
Unknown
And, I see a lot sometimes, especially with the larger companies. I mean, I've had conversations, directors where they'll just pour a fee and just to really win the work pay for the if they pay to keep some staff going, not really making a profit. Now, I know it's not all about their profit, but from my experience, making a profit helps grow a business.

00:31:24:15 - 00:31:48:15
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. But equally, as you said, people have these costs. We've had students who come in to apply into you. We have at least 30 to 50 grants with that. How do we even begin to get out of this like, hole that we put ourselves in the profession? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know all the answers to that, but I think there needs to be some collective action.

00:31:48:15 - 00:32:15:00
Unknown
Yeah. And I think we do need to rely a little bit on, more structural changes. I'd like to see a professional body that actually advocates for architects rather than architecture. I think that would be important. Right. I think we should. I think we should stop being afraid of, looking like as a profession, saying we need more to do what we need to do.

00:32:15:02 - 00:32:31:05
Unknown
I think it's all about that. So I think that's like, you know, I think we change it. There's lots of different ways to change it. I think he's like architects running businesses better. Like, and I would I would say we haven't done that. Like I'd love to be able to pay our staff more like, but we can't.

00:32:31:05 - 00:32:53:22
Unknown
I'd love another stay with myself more about we can't, but we are trying to make the business one better. And that is, quite hard. But I think, you know, you know, all you can do is keep trying to be better at it in a I think it's more just this the, there's the outside elements, which dictates which parts of the puzzle you can play with.

00:32:54:00 - 00:33:12:23
Unknown
Yeah. And that, that, that, that, that keeps changing. You touched upon earlier. Well, I'm just going to try something actually. So I did a lecture, I Westminster, I got invited back where I came from. If they looked at my coursework, they might not have done it. But we were talking about about instead. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's where we that's where I mean, and even.

00:33:12:24 - 00:33:27:21
Unknown
Well, you did really well I kind of went down there. Okay. Yeah. But no I like where it's a very strange university. And I said it to them because I did my part one there. Then I did my part two at Manchester and, but I think in Westminster you don't really get the campus fee. And so I kind of did it the wrong way round.

00:33:27:21 - 00:33:45:02
Unknown
It was like getting a job in London. But it happens. You up on it? Yeah. It was a tough experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah I imagine for part one. Yeah yeah yeah. Oh you know you put your pin pinned up and there's like when the barber came out and this is just my views anyway. I mean the part the report came out is really interesting because it was like a big fake.

00:33:45:02 - 00:34:05:16
Unknown
And I'm just like going as anyone surprised I've been doing this stuff for years. I why are we working long hours? There's these crates. It's very rude. The mic. That's normal. That's architecture. Yeah. But, yeah, I just there was a question that came up from the audience. It was there was a lady on a visa, but.

00:34:05:18 - 00:34:28:13
Unknown
And now the UK is changing the law. So you need to in at least 41,000, I think of next year to have a job in the UK. So if you study in part one and part two is especially part one, there is no part one job for 41,000 pounds. So I think that's going to rule people out, of getting a job.

00:34:28:13 - 00:34:52:02
Unknown
So I think and also labor government, which I voted for, is defunded the apprenticeships, which I thought was a great kind of earn as you learn. Yeah. Yeah. As the most practical solution that is good. And also like you could invest in someone and you get this amazing person at the end of it because when I was a part one, I was like, babe in the woods.

00:34:52:04 - 00:35:18:14
Unknown
I didn't know anything before I got the job. And so that practice was inherited me on potential, but they weren't really seeing the return for a while. Sorry I've thrown a lot at you there, but how do you even begin to, like, get out of this situation? In terms of, like, the wages? And then how do we sponsor people, wages, which are not representative of the industry.

00:35:18:16 - 00:35:59:01
Unknown
And then do you also think that the labor saying that the architecture apprenticeship, the employers paid, I don't think it's going to work now. I mean, we yeah. Because I mean, we've looked at apprenticeships and it just wouldn't work in terms of the you basically. Yeah, it doesn't quite stack from an employee's point at the in but which, which is a shame because I think it's a really great it's an, a great pathway because I think one of the biggest problems with the way with, you know, the fees and earnings situation that Oxford has is that it I think is the main contributor to the lack of diversity within architecture and by

00:35:59:01 - 00:36:24:03
Unknown
diversity, I mean not only from different kind of ethnic minority backgrounds, but also from different, some socio economic backgrounds. So, yeah, we don't have enough working class people in architecture and, and, or people from working class backgrounds in architecture. And, you know, I it's to its own detriment. And I think until we solve that, until we solve the pathway, it's not going to like we're not going to solve it.

00:36:24:06 - 00:36:33:05
Unknown
Yeah. It's, you know, we need to find a way, to make it more appealing.

00:36:33:07 - 00:36:48:04
Unknown
It's in those, like, you know, we talk about, like, living in London is there, you know, but, you know, so how do you buy a house? Like, how do you buy. Oh, well, I can't you can't. So yeah. Exactly. I don't think you can. I mean, just being informed. I think a lot of my, my team live at home now and.

00:36:48:04 - 00:37:13:16
Unknown
Yeah. And I understand. Yeah. Is not very appealing to pay 1,000 pound rent. Yeah. Oh. You know. Okay, I guess let's start getting a mortgage. Come. Yeah. Let's let's start getting that six, 700,000 for. Yeah. An apartment, if we're lucky, of a house split up. It's very tough. I mean, one of the things I'm actually really proud of is that's a employer, employees that I think we've had to at least I think 4 or 5 people.

00:37:13:18 - 00:37:34:18
Unknown
Oh, I left this place. Oh, that's so cool. So, you know, I mean, that's so cool. Well, then it's like, yeah. And they've all got different situations and different. But you know, they, they while working with us, they were able to buy a place and it's something in London. I think that we, Yeah, I like that.

00:37:34:20 - 00:38:00:21
Unknown
So. Yeah. But I think that's going to get it's not getting any easier now that, that that some So yeah, it's something yeah. That's a really silver I, you know, I think it's, I think architects could be a bit more entrepreneurial. It's the thing about profit is an interesting one. I think, you were very open with that.

00:38:00:21 - 00:38:11:21
Unknown
There was a fe. There was that. There was a tweet. I know you think and I'll never call them axes or what. What's even the word bad now for like a tweet anymore is it tweets though?

00:38:11:23 - 00:38:28:10
Unknown
Well we're not going to look at that. Let me get away with that. But you did this really cool tweet before talking about all this amazing stuff that you did, and then the profit was I, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, yeah. Which is I mean ultimately off. Oh responsibility. Sorry. I'm, I'm the same.

00:38:28:14 - 00:38:54:19
Unknown
I'm the same. And we need to we, you know, one of our focuses for the last 12 months has been on, having a healthy profit. Because it's you just it's so it's so hard to do anything. But most architects work on the tight, like, even quite established practices will have really slim profit margins. And I guess it's because, like Oxford is always so seem as seen as a sort of long term, business that you have for a lifetime.

00:38:54:19 - 00:39:32:03
Unknown
And I guess that's how we perceive near-term, but the problem with that is that you haven't got that growth mindset that you get from startups and other kind of more, entrepreneurial types of business. But I think we could borrow stuff from them. I mean, I mean, there's opportunity there, you know, for instance. Yeah. You know, do we take on do we do more of that, the consulting world where we're subcontracting, the other consultants and yeah, I've got friends who like bringing table surveys inside that business so that they can, like, make the profit of that exercise that, and if I think, you know, when we think about the small projects

00:39:32:03 - 00:39:52:10
Unknown
that we do that we pretty much manage anyway, you know, do we take the risk of subcontract, like putting the whole team together? Yeah. And some of the architects who I really admire and are doing well at the moment are one suit building it like like that. They've got their own construction cut orders and they're taking hold of the whole process.

00:39:52:10 - 00:40:12:06
Unknown
And, you know, just the traditional idea of the architect, like, you know, doing the drawings and then sending out contractors. I don't know how interesting that is. Like, you know, for certain clients, who are time poor, cash rich, they just want someone you can have after all of it, and they have have to pay for it.

00:40:12:06 - 00:40:29:13
Unknown
So, yeah, if you can do that, I think I think Fab place, by the way, I do not I'm not sure I know. So at this stage you've got the skills to do that. Is it. So it is a very challenging thing to do. But I mean I think those are the kinds of businesses that, I admire.

00:40:29:16 - 00:40:53:16
Unknown
Yeah. Kind of designing the different. Well, I mean, I think this is a few things when you think when you talking, then, I mean, it's very entrepreneurial. We talk and, and I think, I profess I moaned as well. I look at, look over at like so I think what you're saying is a little the alternative, a little bit outside of the box where I'm part one, part two, part three.

00:40:53:16 - 00:41:15:01
Unknown
Congratulations. You've got it. Yeah. You're an architect. I don't know what happens after that. Yeah. What I like about what you're saying is you're looking over here, you pivot in. And while we were talking, it sounds like I'm almost saying all these things like that. But the truth is, if I go and back and I said, do you still want to study architecture?

00:41:15:03 - 00:41:35:23
Unknown
I know myself, I go, yeah. Because even though there's all these problems that we're frantically trying to solve, I still think it's a great job. And. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think that the degree and diploma, even though it's not articulate did very well. It really sets you up for life. I mean, a career is just like pitching for work.

00:41:36:03 - 00:41:59:13
Unknown
It is a metaphorical smack in the face. But if you can survive it, like as you said earlier, go into the estate agent reference ready and that were actually really well equipped for him. Yeah. You had to go outside of the vehicle. Yeah. Well, I think the career is an interesting one. Like, I know there's there's all this discussion, especially after all the bonnet, issues.

00:41:59:13 - 00:42:21:16
Unknown
And I think that has been kind of like, difficult cultures within architecture schools. But I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater, because I do think crit is quite a. Yeah, but I think it's great. It's real life, isn't that. Yeah. I mean, the thing of was, you know, the thing about doing any, any building and it gets more and more pronounced and bigger.

00:42:21:16 - 00:42:42:09
Unknown
You go every person in that process that you encounter wants to stop you. Do you get building? Yeah. The planets don't want you to do a good building. Well, that's what they maybe do. But they their idea of what you're building is is usually very different. Yeah. Like building control. That was a good building. I got it from the clients then we took a building that build.

00:42:42:09 - 00:43:05:02
Unknown
It's definitely that we need stay together. So you're fighting everyone and you've got to justify it to everyone, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's almost like that whole, you know, that kind of culture of like opposition and negativity that you get, you just have to do. Yeah. Yeah. At the time it always I and I think that is why we should always celebrate like architecture.

00:43:05:02 - 00:43:24:06
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Like whether even, like, maybe even designing himself. Like, to deliver a good building is so odd. Yeah. Of course, I don't know if I can say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course it is. So incredibly. Who? We work too hard, we can swear. Come on, we can do it. That. I think it should be celebrated.

00:43:24:08 - 00:43:48:03
Unknown
Yeah. You know, I'm, I always do. We've been lucky enough to be like, He goes his own design few times and a few other websites. I always engage with the people who comment. Do you now, people UK, you're in the Wild West. You're like, okay, I on a Sunday. No one thinks this is a good idea, but I'm kind of like, you know, there's always this, there's always people.

00:43:48:03 - 00:44:06:19
Unknown
And like, I'm, I'm absolutely people can have their view on. Yeah. On whether they like it or not. But what I would engage with is like people who say this isn't worthy. Yeah, yeah. Like this. Because Gemini a lot of the projects. Now look at that come out of your face. I haven't had that much to do. Yeah.

00:44:06:19 - 00:44:26:24
Unknown
It's like, you know, it would be, kind of something that it's really been. It's kind of created and delivered by the team. Yeah. So I sort of get a bit. It gets my back up a bit, when people, take aim at it, I think, and I think that, that, that culture, the negativity lands between architects.

00:44:27:01 - 00:44:47:16
Unknown
I think we should, you know, ease off a bit. I think it's a bit like, you know, people, anyone who, does a tough sport like boxing, rugby that they might, may be fighting each other like, you know, go someone. Well, no, but they give each other respect just for doing it. Yeah. It's hard. It is so hard and it's getting harder.

00:44:47:16 - 00:45:11:14
Unknown
And I think, you know, anything where you get a half decent building coming out, the end of that process, you need to say like, well done, well done. Because it is. Everyone wants to stop you doing that. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, There's so many elements. When we touched upon the business, which I'm always interested in, because it's kind of this abstract concept that people go, I'm going to set up a business.

00:45:11:20 - 00:45:29:02
Unknown
I always, you know, my, my parents say to my partner, I should set up a business. And I go, whoa, before you start giving that advice out willy nilly, hey, this is this is slow down a bit. But as architects, we do that right? Then you designing this amazing energy, you stick with that you in all these elements.

00:45:29:02 - 00:45:48:18
Unknown
We're doing all this stuff like it's a lot of things going on. And I remember being at a talk once, with the name of Marcus Fairley on who'd passed away now, which is great. You know, which which is a massive shame. And they used did this talk and I think it's such a positive as well.

00:45:48:20 - 00:46:07:24
Unknown
So very easy and all this stuff to same, kind of downplay yourself or not worthy at the end. Marcus, when you're architects, you fashion you rockstars like you are, you know, like you fit all these elements. You make things happen. And he was like, he lit up the room, you know, because you're like, oh, yeah, I suppose what I do is cool.

00:46:07:24 - 00:46:36:08
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I and I think it's really I one of them, one of my resolutions was to nurture my own passion for architecture, because I think when you're in the trenches, as it were, like running the business and delivering projects, it can be, can wear you down a bit. Yeah. But I think, yeah, it's kind of like when you've got those finished projects and when you think about the kind of shape the what you look like architect you can do.

00:46:36:09 - 00:46:58:23
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. In terms of like, inspiring people, but also providing a backdrop for, and, you know, making lives better. Yeah. It's incredible what we do. And and I think it's a very it's, it's a it's very easy to lose that, that at that understanding. Yeah. So quite nice. But we should we should not do that.

00:46:58:23 - 00:47:29:24
Unknown
And I think we should also, you know, recognizing each other. Yeah. And, Yeah. So, yeah, one of my news was Lisa's too. So try, try and see more buildings go. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I haven't, I don't know if I've succeeded so far, but, I mean, here we go. Okay. Yeah, yeah, you're going to keep it in the front of your mind because, I mean, for anyone who's thinking of running a business, I do think you have to be insane to do it.

00:47:30:01 - 00:47:49:15
Unknown
But I am insane, and I love it. Yeah, but there's the constant interruptions, isn't there? But you are clearly passionate about it. It kind of keeps you going as well. I sometimes wonder, like, you know, when we get, like, me, you. We're talking. Oh, we're going to get there. We're not there. I'm finished. And I'm doing the same.

00:47:49:15 - 00:48:09:06
Unknown
Like, I think as humans have this thing. So I've got, team of five at the moment. I'm excited. I'm. Well, yeah, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And I wonder, as humans, you know, you move into a house, you go, oh, the next house. I remember my mum once we were going on holiday and we were getting on the fly and she was like, oh yeah, next year we definitely need to do a different holiday.

00:48:09:06 - 00:48:27:10
Unknown
And I remember we hadn't even gone, on the plane yet. Do you think we'll look back at like this conversation of where you are now and you go like, oh, I know it was aspiring to go to 20 and do that, but it was like, oh, like, what I'm trying to say is, is it the journey or the destination?

00:48:27:12 - 00:48:53:12
Unknown
Well, I think, I mean, I think, I think you can't stand still. No. As soon as you say, oh, I'm there. Yeah. Will I be done with sort of sat then you folks, you have to keep moving. I mean, I think we've kind of maybe there's been a couple of occasions in the 12 years where we've not rested on our laurels, but maybe, you know, taken off it off the gas a little bit, natural and still stop on the journey.

00:48:53:12 - 00:49:35:13
Unknown
But you can't. You have to keep going. It has to always have the ambitions to do more or different or think about because, I mean, the world is changing so quickly and I mean, you can't stand still. And, you know, there's also great fancies coming, coming through. And, you know, competing with the, so it's, you've just got to keep always trying to improve and, I mean, actually, we've been working on our valleys, lots of practice, which has been surprisingly hard because I think with, with I think we've always been a value led practice, but we've never defined them.

00:49:35:15 - 00:49:57:01
Unknown
It's a bit like the British Constitution. It's like, you know, it's and it's been unwritten. So actually defining it's been quite hard places. But one of the things we've always talked about is like, always learning is getting better, always reflecting on. So I mean, one of the things that we've brought within, we've got as a culture in the office is like learning from mistakes, like never getting angry people for making mistakes happens.

00:49:57:01 - 00:50:25:14
Unknown
And yeah, I mean, okay, maybe if it happens all the time. Yeah, yeah. My come on now we've had this chat. Is that more like okay that happen how do we make sure it doesn't. Yeah yeah yeah. And then so we monthly we have like we have lessons learned. We have we have a, a channel on our slack where if something happens we post it and it's like this happens like just say, you know, like like, you know, we've changed this in this template or we change this in our system.

00:50:25:15 - 00:50:43:12
Unknown
So this doesn't happen again. But just so everyone knows, and then every month would all catch up with the team and we have like an side, everyone add something to the agenda and then it's just like, I had this problem on site, or I had this problem in the planning. Like, say, when you do that next time, make sure you like I've added it to the checklist.

00:50:43:12 - 00:51:05:24
Unknown
So it's kind of like this culture of, of of improving but also like personally improving, like getting better with people getting better as a practice. And I think that's something that we've that's been really good. Yeah. It comes across it's the journey isn't the, it's the person's a journey. You won't learn. Mistakes will happen. Yeah.

00:51:06:01 - 00:51:29:07
Unknown
You you you can't get better without making mistakes. Now, that makes me feel better. That's a million mistakes going on all the time. I wanted to touch on one quick thing as well, because. And, I'm very excited about using new technology, new tools. So I use AI a lot in the business. Yeah. I feel like people's views are quite polarizing on.

00:51:29:07 - 00:51:53:13
Unknown
What? Do you. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Well, then what do I use AI for? We need to get a camera on you next time, isn't there? I mean, I'll say, but I just want to get your perspective on it. The madness of a. It's. I want to know this every day. Yeah. You know what they are in 3 a.m. I, I, I think data entry is number one.

00:51:53:13 - 00:52:18:14
Unknown
You know, all the mundane stuff. Yeah, yeah. Get rid of that right now. Just anything. Data entry, remove it. I do also, and I'll preface this, I have used it for marketing. Why? I've made the mistakes too. So because you get to do sequel effects, world it out. And it's kind of like having an unruly part one basically what I was before and then sequel.

00:52:18:14 - 00:52:35:12
Unknown
Yeah. Yes. Great. And then the next when you send out you don't double check it. Yeah. Hallucinates does all this stuff. Yeah. But I think it's going to be a really skill. So what do we use it for data entry. Soon they be cert in things like brochures. Oh my god. The amount of years I've been moving grades since thousand.

00:52:35:13 - 00:53:02:05
Unknown
In design, I still think it's the way that you can optimize stuff. You can do things. Unfortunately, you can't check batteries and cameras and all this stuff. And like I do think that there's a place for creatives, creativity. I don't think the role of a not, I don't think an architect would be replaced. So anthropic released a report a week ago saying that a, is 8% chance of architecture being.

00:53:02:07 - 00:53:22:00
Unknown
Yeah, I don't personally think that, but I think the role of an architect using AI will be changed the one bit I'm worried about though. Again, confection EPR are just going to be a nightmare here. Again, this back because when I was a part one, I remember one week you'd be like, right, Steve, you're going to be doing the collage.

00:53:22:02 - 00:53:39:12
Unknown
We're going to do this for the client, give you two free weeks. And that's like, oh yeah, it should be all right. Photoshop every day changing the clouds. Doing that. Yeah. That's good. That's all gone. Yeah. So my three weeks which I think is a better thing, especially as a business owner. You get the AI to do it.

00:53:39:12 - 00:53:59:06
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. You know you go into a bit moody like that. The crowd's not so good. Yeah. But I worry it might endanger the role of the part one or that learning time. Yeah. Yeah, I think that is initially. That's definitely my thought. And that's the worry. I mean, I think of the qual one is already been it's already a challenge.

00:53:59:06 - 00:54:17:05
Unknown
And I know lots of yeah, I design it's not looking at taking on part one, such small practices because it's such a burden that trying to training up that, you know, you basically, you know, all these bits, you put it off you sometimes it's six months away that not profitable at all. That's very nice to say.

00:54:17:07 - 00:54:31:10
Unknown
Like if it was a complete liability, you know, in a nice way. Yeah. Well it's just, you know, they you know, that was a learning. Yeah. And then and then you for the any then got like 3 or 4 months before they get back to uni. But actually kind of you get that, you get in that return event and they go on.

00:54:31:10 - 00:54:52:00
Unknown
Yeah. Okay. So I'm had enough by Westminster. Really enjoy the time home. See you later. Might come back might not with see and then you're like I mean we've had some incredible problems. Yeah. So I might and one that's actually one is if there's a couple of years that's been that been great. But yeah, I think that's initially that's the challenge.

00:54:52:01 - 00:55:15:05
Unknown
And I mean, who knows where everybody's gonna go. It's already it's already incredible. And I think I'm only just myself getting the hang of it. Or getting an understanding of what it can do. Yeah. I mean, what's interesting about it, is, is it's quite often not very good at things that you think it will be good at and really good at the things that you buy.

00:55:15:06 - 00:55:41:02
Unknown
Right? I agree, everyone was panicking about the visuals out because you were so open at the start. I'll tell you a quick personal one. Currently I'm in the throes of dealing with the developer where I live by outside of work. Yeah, and it's a very, very scary situation. You're quite vulnerable. You're doing all this stuff. Now, we've I, I've learned that, you know, if you've got the free ChatGPT version, you're under low power.

00:55:41:04 - 00:55:59:05
Unknown
If you invest in paying for Gemini, paying for code, the amount of information there is great. And basically because I've been using it in my business, I've learned to kind of yield the AI how to point it to sources of truth, how to test it, how to not let it. Because I phrase it. I'll say stuff when you if you take it at face value.

00:55:59:06 - 00:56:21:07
Unknown
Yeah, it can be deceiving. Yeah, but it's really helped me to deal with a situation where they were asking me for a huge amount of money for all these issues, and then when I challenged them and I used AI and mean that, me and the AI together, I basically got this, claim thrown out because they had a design defect when I moved in.

00:56:21:07 - 00:56:49:04
Unknown
Yeah. So me and the AI as Team Steve outside of were. Yeah. As, by the way, a request for 50,000 pounds for a roof that they got wrong at the start. Yeah. How in the old days without AI, I would never have been able to get to them. And so it's really, really powerful. But then going to your point, I think the role of a solicitor or an accountant is going to be eroded more quickly.

00:56:49:06 - 00:57:09:14
Unknown
Yeah, I think you, I think you, I think you're potentially right. And I think yeah, I've been, I so I've been, I've just finished a book on I think it was cow intelligence which I'd recommend. And I also went to the RBA AI conference two years ago, which is great. So how what was the vibe in the room?

00:57:09:16 - 00:57:36:15
Unknown
And Max well, I know, yeah. Curious. I think anyone is there was kind of tight for ticket because I'm interested in hearing about it. But the paid the speakers were really good. And I came out much more positive about it and I think, again, will say the book, I think. Yeah. And when you say like I think people is so big, I everyone's got like a not only professional but also like ethical, personal, philosophical viewpoint on it.

00:57:36:15 - 00:58:00:12
Unknown
Correct. I think and I think it is quite profound, like how it sort of what it means to us as humans. Yeah. You just as architects. Setting that aside, I think you're better off engaging with that and, exploring what it can do. So the book talks about a jagged edge, which is like this thing, why it's really good at some things to think it would be good at.

00:58:00:14 - 00:58:30:02
Unknown
Like it's got quite amazing emotional intelligence, and we find it quite good at kind of helping us resolve disputes, not getting it to do that, but also almost like mapping out approaches and responses to allow us to say, well, which one do we think is right? Really good at that. But also but then also sometimes really terrible at things like, you know, putting together the like a boring question a bit because you can't write a word count because you say things like that.

00:58:30:03 - 00:58:53:18
Unknown
It don't work. It says, you know, and he would drive it. Yeah. Which is kind of annoying. I know. Obviously what we're now seeing is like the emergence of different types, different, models and different AI tools that are focused on specific types of tasks, like some that are more good at kind of research and some that are better, that kind of creative and so, yeah, I think you just have to explore it.

00:58:53:20 - 00:59:05:17
Unknown
I think you go and lean into it like I think you do. Yeah. This is what they were like when they found that, you know, when you, you know, you read the history books and there's a revelation, you know, like the internet. So I was, yeah, the internet and internet and it was a big thing. Yeah, yeah.

00:59:05:17 - 00:59:25:14
Unknown
I think AI is that important in that big. Yeah. I mean, it could even be bigger AI who knows? And like, it is, it is quite it is quite terrifying in a way. Yeah. I think what you can do, I think you do need to read into it. I mean, I, I'm sure I might still be saying that I there's much more resistance actually from the team.

00:59:25:16 - 00:59:49:18
Unknown
Really. Yeah. Not all of them. I think it's niche space. I think everyone's because it's so big. Everyone's got their own kind of viewpoint on it, which I think is normal and right. And I think we'll probably see huge heat need percussions not only from AI but also like the reaction against it. If you think about industrialization, which is like we should do like a comparative changed everything.

00:59:49:18 - 01:00:13:14
Unknown
Yeah. And I think I you through the prism of architecture. What did that result in? Okay. Modernism. But it also created the arts and fast movement. And if you look at life instance, I mean, if you look at like the Houses of Britain and the kind of the urban high streets of Britain that were built in that, say, the interwar period, when modernism was rampant in which, like the dominant style in Europe, they're all kind of like in the non hostile.

01:00:13:19 - 01:00:43:11
Unknown
So actually like the reaction against industrialization created a big, yeah. Yeah. See yeah yeah yeah yeah. I know, like you might almost say that the reaction against it might be more, influential than. Yeah. Then. So now I think, yeah, I think my current view is like, it's it's bullshit because, I mean, sometimes, sometimes you hear it absolutely blows your way in terms of what you can do and how you can make efficiencies of the business.

01:00:43:11 - 01:01:01:18
Unknown
Yeah. I think the way I mean, you know, I think we're still exploring it within the business. I mean, do I, I want to try and bring people more on board is that you have to you have to demonstrate its benefit to everyone. Yes. I think, which we haven't I don't know, I think that any I've identified with that you know, it.

01:01:01:20 - 01:01:26:24
Unknown
I think it falls on our, you know, they so giving the tools. Yeah. And giving it to the team. But, you're right really. I mean, I, I don't see it taking away people's shows like this is so hard to get a project over the line that you touched upon earlier. And people crave physical connections, but I think it would be metaphorically forget graph on this.

01:01:26:24 - 01:01:50:08
Unknown
It would be you. You've got your project, our senior Arctic winter, and then he just got the AI. And it enables you to do so much or makes your life easy, or frees up your time to then go out. And so I was listening to another podcast as well, and you talked about the early days, the scrappy days when you were drawing sketches on the stage, then connections going to see people.

01:01:50:14 - 01:02:12:19
Unknown
And I think as the businesses go bigger, we get lost in the weeds. I need to like, I'm setting this up, I'm doing that. I'm doing this manual thing. I got this feeling a report the other day, Tim. And I was like, what the fuck am I doing this? Or I'm going this way too now, Ben. But if we can get the AI to do that, and then you focus on the design or making this personal connections, I think it could be a good thing.

01:02:12:21 - 01:02:34:03
Unknown
Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I will say that mining can't have professional indemnity insurance. It that's the one thing keeping us, keeping us, keeping sky. But yeah, I think it's I think, yes, I think right. And so, we just finished writing a book, actually, called Joyful Spaces. I mean, yes. Cool, cool.

01:02:34:05 - 01:03:03:04
Unknown
I think I'm allowed to say that it's going to be published hopefully later this year. Congratulations. And I, we kind of, maybe a little bit speculated on what the future of architecture is and the joyful space like what, you know, in the context of kind of creating Twitter spaces. But I think, yeah, in the in the face of AI and in the face of, the world is as it is, you know, I think and for architects, it's like focusing on that human connection.

01:03:03:04 - 01:03:37:01
Unknown
Yeah. You know, I think we've, you know, through the create for uni, through making really fucking difficult things, not being like we, we're really good communicators. Yeah. Yeah. And enablers and, and so actually, you know, I think that was one thing that was great by the AI conferences, architects using their architects brains, which is quite often about like looking at the world differently, creating things, being positive and using AI to enhance that capability and actually widening the net of what we can do.

01:03:37:02 - 01:04:07:14
Unknown
Yeah. Like, you know, for instance, Russell, my colleague, the mosque like, and the amazing stuff that they've been doing in-house, in terms of like mapping and identifying small sites that, way beyond the scope of what, you know, traditionally architects would be doing. So, yeah, I think it's kind of like I think, like you say, you know, that that kind of training of being an architect is, is quite, you know, an amazing education.

01:04:07:14 - 01:04:32:24
Unknown
And it gives you a different way of looking at the world. And if you can, if we can harness that and maybe be a bit more kind of, entrepreneurial or kind of creative in terms of what we think we can apply that to. I think, I think, I think it's a great opportunity. Yeah. And I'm definitely an evangelist, but it's kind of I think I'm definitely at the point, but I think it's better to engage with it and see what it can do.

01:04:32:24 - 01:04:58:02
Unknown
Yeah. I think, if I can share like, an anecdote. So when I, when I jumped from recruitment as part to the the revolution was or to that AutoCAD to resin and I was the practice and yeah always reminds me of the people that pushed it away. And I had a friend once once it sounds like there's lots that and now it's a friend and someone was.

01:04:58:02 - 01:05:17:04
Unknown
So this is the again and I get it and it's noisy and it's clunky and stuff on guard. So I that's never sponsor me ever. But, I get it. But there was one moment he was like, yeah, it was okay, you you stay on CAD then and all the Revit will kind of nest and worry about it.

01:05:17:04 - 01:05:34:20
Unknown
You're not going to do payments. No problem. And it was so funny seeing that person go from like fight and advocate in the CAD to like, oh my gosh, we're going to get left behind. Well, I just think the train is going. And as he knows architect, I think it's a massive opportunity to capitalize and get and regain control.

01:05:34:20 - 01:05:59:04
Unknown
And one thing I want to touch upon as well is because you mentioned about the role of the principal design. Then, and like, I've spoken to other architecture directors as well, and it's an opportunity to regain some sense of control. Yeah. You know, and I think with I, it could be a similar thing. Yeah. Because, you know, you touched upon and forgive me, I'm really going to spend a long time since I've been in architecture practice.

01:05:59:04 - 01:06:23:12
Unknown
But you got different contracts. I remember with the JC all this stuff, I didn't really understand it. But, you know, when the olden days, when I was then about Le Corbusier and Frank Gehry, the master architects, it's all gone. But kind of stuff like being the creative with AI and being in charge of design to kind of bring us back a little about, I think it can.

01:06:23:12 - 01:06:48:14
Unknown
Yeah. But I think we do need to the problem, you know, we kind of get left behind other, other people in the process who are more active and the bit more kind of, I mean, ultimately follow the money a bit more. Contractors and they see what some big projects do the same. Or you are very marginalized as an architect, you realize quite quickly who's got the power in that, in that, process.

01:06:48:14 - 01:07:12:16
Unknown
But we should. So I think collectively we need to that's where we need to be. But I don't know, we could even, you know, be fully to each take a more risk, taking more responsibility, take on more liability. You know, it's a it's a double edged sword. Say, it it yeah, I think I think you should and I think there are there is an opportunity there.

01:07:12:18 - 01:07:35:08
Unknown
I mean, I mean, from our perspective, we kind of do that already because we a lot of our work is with, homeowners with small businesses or like, and who don't do it and say they look at us and we do look after the them to kind of, remain as that single point to the project. And we do have control in a way.

01:07:35:10 - 01:07:56:13
Unknown
And I think it would be nice to see, though, try and take that bigger. Yeah. But whenever we've got into that other other than almost like, you know, a big DB like DB contracts and being qualified contractors, it's like you see the power dynamic very clearly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean yeah, I agree with again, it's not easy.

01:07:56:15 - 01:08:16:09
Unknown
I'm quite excited by it all. All right. Let's run it up a bit. And it's not all about me asking you questions. And you touched my really or random questions throughout for me. Any further? Yeah. Go on. It could be about the industry because you get into recruitment. I fell into accident when I did my part free.

01:08:16:10 - 01:08:35:17
Unknown
Yeah. Okay. That's the true for one. I'll tell you what, though. I think you touched upon it earlier. We're we're almost credits. And I thought, like, a very average or mediocre part, too. I just did, bizarrely, that when I went to recruitment and I saw I was actually all right, I wasn't the best, I wasn't the worst.

01:08:35:17 - 01:09:00:18
Unknown
But, I think you've got to be passionate about what you do. And, I did fall into recruitment. It isn't glamorous ringing up people doing all that stuff. But I did enjoy it. Bizarrely, I felt like I woke up a bit more in recruitment, so I was kind of plugging away on Micro Station. So that was my trauma, I remember, but I remember the keystrokes now.

01:09:00:18 - 01:09:20:11
Unknown
QR cutie you never forget, you know, T tram and all that stuff. And it was a great, the baseline. But where I was and they were fantastic, I didn't feel like I could be entrepreneurial, but I wasn't bringing the entrepreneurial ness out of they, but bizarrely, in recruitment. And I'll just be really honest, I plonked into recruitment.

01:09:20:11 - 01:09:40:13
Unknown
It was like the Wild West and they was it was like a film, like they were like, hey, you seem all right, come on in. And then they were there and they went, phone, computer, go for it. And I was like thinking, oh, I've left on a job in architecture. I need to make this work. And I just, you know, and I felt alive, like I was just alive.

01:09:40:15 - 01:09:56:19
Unknown
And because I was like, I was like, I am not sitting by a computer for another four years. And then I left eight months in the in this recruitment company, the SAP, my own business. And and I didn't know anything. Tim. And it was just like, honestly, it was like an episode of Breaking Bad, like not breaking the rules.

01:09:56:19 - 01:10:18:05
Unknown
I wasn't cooking Kristallnacht. But what I mean is I was like, I'm living, you know, I'm setting this up, we're going for it. And then all the metaphorical slaps in the faces as well. You got your covenants, which I didn't respect, but you got, you know, like, oh, I haven't fallen by that, so I can't work if all of my existing clients that I've got for at least six months, like you, I was like going down the road.

01:10:18:05 - 01:10:36:17
Unknown
Hey, you haven't heard me from Adam. No, no, no, I'm not interested, you know? And you're like, oh, pay the rent at the end of the month. Yeah. You know. Yeah, but, I wouldn't change it for the world. And I learned a lot. And you learn a lot behind the scenes that you wouldn't know. It's like a brutal honesty for it, but.

01:10:36:17 - 01:10:58:10
Unknown
But where recruitment is really bad is no one explains the process and no one gives time. And it's a really weird business set up in a way, the mental way and so in recruitment you get paid delivering at the end. So there's this whole bizarro world thing of you were completely for free. You do all this stuff, it can go no way.

01:10:58:12 - 01:11:19:05
Unknown
Or you could do one call. Yeah, I make a few thousand pounds. So it's this bizarro world. But I quite enjoyed. Well, I think you you you'll see a people person enjoy paying speaking. People suck. And so I can see why it would. It would be a good fit for you. Yeah. I go one funny story too on that.

01:11:19:05 - 01:11:36:08
Unknown
So in EPL where I was they had free kitchens. If I told you this story then they set free kitchens and they, they and they had their own tracking system. I mean they're like it's Steve in the north wing of the West Wing. Get it now because we need to get going. And the last one that is a little bit naughty.

01:11:36:10 - 01:11:56:22
Unknown
Because I used to count the time like I wasn't the best. And boy, in that way, I remember being like, oh, you know, that meme of, like, it's got to be about lunch now. So yeah, like, can I go, yeah, you're like on site and you're like, what's going on? And I, you know, I used to pull all the party tricks of, like, you know, the chatty director that's been there years, and I go, hey, Richard, I was the kids.

01:11:56:22 - 01:12:12:15
Unknown
You just taking them to uni? God, I was like, right. I've got a conversation for 20 minutes with the director, so if anyone sees me, they're gonna have to get me from Richard. But I wasn't passionate about it in one way. And what I think life is to show, and you've got to. They was passionate about. And you're clearly passionate.

01:12:12:15 - 01:12:37:02
Unknown
Like, I mean, the studios. I'm about bit smoke about it. This is really cool. We really welcome in very honest, which I think is really important. And I think if you don't have that drive, it's just too tough to get you through. But I think you study architecture because you feel a sense of purpose. You learn a lot of stuff, and I think the course actually prepares you in a bizarre way.

01:12:37:02 - 01:12:57:15
Unknown
So the last thing I'll say about it is I look at my business exactly like I did when I was studying architecture in, in the industry, looking at it like that. And there is no way I could do it without the degree. So I'm like, eternally grateful I'll be a part two forever. There's opportunities to come from it as well.

01:12:57:17 - 01:13:12:23
Unknown
Like I snuck on the RBA council because I was a part too, because no one bloody put themselves forward for it. All the architects did. Yeah, yeah. No one in the part two did. Yeah. So I went into that one and that's that's a weird and wild way. You know, I don't know how much I can say before.

01:13:12:23 - 01:13:40:13
Unknown
There they are. No, I had a good time, but it was very different. And then the last thing I'll say is, I think as a business owner, you mentioned you always pushing in the question. And that was interesting thing about the RBA council because they were really welcome in. But yeah, you could, I could tell it was a business owner and who was there helping out kind of, you know, maybe taking a bit slower because, you know, in the commercial world it's like, come on, guys, we need to get something out of this.

01:13:40:13 - 01:14:06:07
Unknown
And I do worry. And the last thing, I'll say it openly, like I was really, really happy that Chris Branson joined the RBA, a bank, because I do think it's important the people run, businesses are involved. Like if he went for foreign, because I know you run the business been. Yeah, great. I think, of course we can't protect you know, Westminster's a lot of practice, and, it's different than a lot of different businesses out there.

01:14:06:09 - 01:14:35:23
Unknown
Well, I do think it's really important that people who are run a business are involved. It's one of my frustrations with the government. Yeah. Oh, Rachel Reeves, if you are watching, I'm not happy with you at all. But it's really obvious in the in the government who's run a business and not. Yeah, yeah. I just how like you, you know, the head of business for labor and I voted for labor by the way because I'm, I work as background grown up labor and I'm like, this is a decision.

01:14:36:03 - 01:14:52:20
Unknown
Someone I'm in a business. And I look up and they're like, yeah, I've been doing it. You need someone to run the business to talk about businesses. Yeah, I do, I sorry last run, you know. No that's fine I mean I, I agree I do agree with you I think it's, I think you need a balance in a government because I don't see them also running like big.

01:14:52:21 - 01:15:09:09
Unknown
Yeah. I'm just, I just I'm just being the frumpy business owner, but I do I do know what you mean and I think but I think, I think there's a limit to what the president of the RBA can do. I think it's more of an issue with the, the remit of the institution. But I mean, I'm glad things are being shaken up.

01:15:09:09 - 01:15:40:21
Unknown
Let's see how it pans out. But I think things do need to change. I think there's a I think there's a certain amount that architects can do together collectively, you know, especially around fees and like taxes, buying work is in the recessions is which just kills that one. And then I think actually, you know, like do the, the kind of, you know, the, the sort of unionization of some of the like some of the things that that has done in terms of like identifying bad working practices and poor wages is good.

01:15:40:23 - 01:16:05:01
Unknown
Maybe sometimes the it we need to be working more together. Yeah, I don't think I think sometimes it's not necessarily, always the practice owners who it, it's not necessarily an issue that's been defined by the practice owners learning or the systemic thing. That's what's the session. But yeah, I think we do need to work together to try and solve it.

01:16:05:01 - 01:16:35:17
Unknown
Some, some things we can do as individual businesses be better, like one better, be better employees is. And anyways, we can do things collectively, but I think we also do need some help from a more structurally in terms of, you know, protecting our role and identifying a all. Yeah, I think so. But, you know, touching upon that, I mean, it's very clear that you're a very responsible employer.

01:16:35:19 - 01:16:57:12
Unknown
And, it's great hearing how you support your employees. And, listen, I don't want to get in the way of the bacon sandwich that Nims bring in yet, which has gone cold because I'm waffling on. Tim, I really appreciate your time. For anyone that wants to check out the work, get in contact with you. I know you answer some of the same posts.

01:16:57:18 - 01:17:22:12
Unknown
However, if someone was getting contact. Hey, where where where can they find you? Our website names in the UK. Yeah. For the best place. I mean, Instagram account, which to me runs, I think, a couple of days out, handle. But if you search for that. Yeah, yeah. So that's the best way to I would say that if you're, I could if I could say this, but if we were creating.

01:17:22:12 - 01:17:42:03
Unknown
That's where we have to tell you. Yeah, yeah. No, please. No, no. Like, of course. Yeah. No, I'm not. You should work in this company. It's very good. Which camera around. There we go. Name terms. Very good. Yeah. So that's basically. That's the very. The best place to get it to apply to them. Same. Oh I would point less lights in them to thank you.

01:17:42:03 - 01:17:49:23
Unknown
So any position becomes available. Yeah. Yeah yeah. As someone as anyone. Give us a second. All right. Give us a second. Yeah. Thanks, Tim. I know, guys, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.