Should you use ANNOYING Recruitment Consultants to find your next job in Architecture? ft. Matt Kirk

Should you use ANNOYING Recruitment Consultants to find your next job in Architecture_ ft. Matt Kirk
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[00:00:00]

Stephen Drew: Strap on in the important questions. You're looking for a job. Oh, what do you do? Do you speak to that recruiter? What are they going to say? You've had good experiences, bad experiences. We're going to go all into it today. All right. Here we go.

Oh, dear me, some deep introspection coming on this episode. I love it.

Hello everyone. It's a Friday. You could be down the pub with your boss. I won't tell 'em and we're, it's just the three of us [00:01:00] together. But unfortunately today, you're not just with one annoying recruiter. You're with another Anai recruiter, the anai recruiter.com.

Matt Kirk: original Annoying Recruiter, you're not taking that.

Stephen Drew: Now you are the original one, but together we are the Anai recruiters.

Matt Kirk, how are you today, sir? Thank you for joining us.

Matt Kirk: I'm brilliant, mate. I'm brilliant, mate. I can't, I'm excited. It's not very often, is it, mate, that two people who compete in the same thing, the same area are friendly enough and nice enough to support each other and do something like this, is it? Let's face it.

Stephen Drew: there you go, exactly, compete. It's like the Roman Empires, but we haven't got no sledgehammers. There's gonna be no violence here today. Now, Matt, for anyone that hasn't met you, who are you, first of all?

Matt Kirk: Mate, I do the same thing as you, just that I'm small fry. I'm not, I don't work with the Southern Poshos yet.

Stephen Drew: You're

from the

north.

Matt Kirk: I worked with the [00:02:00] ruffians in Manchester and Newcastle.

Stephen Drew: If this is Game of Thrones Europe, then fair enough,

Matt Kirk: That's right, mate. I've never seen that. So I don't know the references. I've never seen it, but we're

Stephen Drew: You haven't seen Game of

Matt Kirk: missing out.

Stephen Drew: I don't know if I would have scheduled this if I'd known that. Although, the last season... It all went downhill. I will admit it all

went downhill. However, we've got some good stuff today because I thought this would be a good episode where we would give the real deal of what happens behind the architecture recruitment scene.

My goodness. So we will be shedding the light on what actually happens and whether or not you in the audience should engage with a recruiter. And if there being a pain in the, you know what? How do you make it work the best for you? And also, just help yourself during the job seeking process. Now, Matt, I don't know about you, but I fell into recruitment.

How did you get into it, first of all?

Matt Kirk: Mate, same as [00:03:00] everyone, I didn't dream of it. No little boy or girl dreams one day, one day I'm going to be a recruiter, I'm going to be a phone monkey.

Stephen Drew: You're a phone monkey. So

Matt Kirk: Mate, I started off in what was basically a boiler room. I'm not kidding you, it was not far off a boiler room. And

I think it's changed.

Stephen Drew: how did you fall into architecture then?

Matt Kirk: Mate, just desperation.

Stephen Drew: Desperation. My goodness.

Matt Kirk: No. So I found a job through more or less desperation because, 2008 and all that, that had an impact. I think I graduated in 2008 and I couldn't get any job, no job. I couldn't get a job in Tesco or Asda. No, I couldn't. I was applying, I was trying, and I, did a few bits or whatever and eventually I sent a CV off to a recruitment company and they phoned me up and I had to lie about that.

I got a two, one and a degree and And they never checked, of course, they didn't. It's not it's not like the ARB register, mate, where you go on and you type someone's name, yep, they're an architect, it's not like that, is it? No one's [00:04:00] interested. I could have said I've got a first and they would have, believed me.

But I went in and we had a conversation and they thought I was a bit of an off the wall character, a bit eccentric.

Stephen Drew: No,

Matt Kirk: And, Yeah, and they just said, oh, you're perfect for architecture. And I was like, oh. Okay. Yep. Let's give that a try. That was it. I was an architecture recruiter from that moment.

Stephen Drew: that is that is interesting. I think that's the first point that we should go into because actually, recruitment is, in my opinion, and you can tell me if you agree, Matt, quite unregulated, right? It's just the reality of the business. You've got different people from different walks of life.

Now, I'm not trying to one up you. It's not that. I did do architecture, although

my drawings were quite

Matt Kirk: You are trying to one up me a bit, aren't you?

Stephen Drew: I'm just saying that I did those five years back. Come on now, right? But my

Matt Kirk: What the hell are you doing as a recruiter since you did, you could be living it up on 25 grand a year as a senior architect at this point.

Stephen Drew: I think it's more than that. And then it's I don't know about, no, come on. It's 15, 16,

17 in London, right?[00:05:00]

Matt Kirk: Yeah. It's not quite, I don't think you get that as a senior architect. I'm not, but yeah

Stephen Drew: but I didn't want to do my part three. I didn't want to do my part

Matt Kirk: No. How come you didn't want to do it, mate? Out of interest. How come, there's a couple of businesses. Architecture Businesses, not up north, but down south, in London and everything who they almost think someone exclusively employ architectural or ex architectural professionals, don't they?

Stephen Drew: That's where I

Matt Kirk: yeah. How is it? Is that where you started?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, that's where I started. And until I told them I'm setting up my business, a business with someone else. And unfortunately I had to leave.

Matt Kirk: Yeah. That's another thing

Stephen Drew: was on me though. That was my decision. And I was, it was all going well. I was Employee of the Month, and then I had some bright ideas, Matt, of just, Oh, it would be good to do this, and yeah, that was an interesting few months,

Matt Kirk: that you mentioned about this. to me before but yeah I think we've all had weird experiences in the employment and self employment world in recruitment you know it's a [00:06:00] weird place

Stephen Drew: this is it. I think, though, that I think that the point here is that everyone comes from different walks of life in recruitment. Now, the best architectural recruitment consultant that I actually worked with and managed before, He didn't come from architecture and no and and he was good.

He was amazing. Stephen Glanz, I'll say his name out loud, but he was a really good recruitment consultant. So I actually don't think you do need a degree in architecture to be a good recruitment consultant. What I

Matt Kirk: me say I don't really even know what an architect does day to day

Stephen Drew: Really?

Matt Kirk: technician does day to day I don't need to know

Stephen Drew: You don't want to know?

Matt Kirk: no or you need what you need is a good bs detector and I've only got a, you can work it out through people's personalities.

You can work it out through, how confidently they talk about things. I get the whole point of what an architect does and everything like that, if you were to sit me down and say, write down a list of the day to [00:07:00] day things, minute by minute of what an architect might be doing, I don't really have a clue mate.

Only people who've, and no recruiter

does, no they don't, they don't, need to, they don't necessarily need to. They just need to be able to recognize certain traits and certain abilities and skills in other people. That's a separate skill in itself, being able to recognize that, do you know what I mean?

And it might be useful for you to know because you've worked in that world, but, it doesn't seem to be a massive problem for me. I've got a pretty high hit rate, I've got a pretty high, at some points in my career I've almost had a... For entire years at a time, a one to one ratio of CV send to interview, and then a one to one ratio of interview to placement.

So it doesn't seem to have caused me a problem.

Stephen Drew: So how does a person then in the audience, so say now they're looking to use a recruiter, how do you measure what a good recruitment consultant is? Because I'm sure that there are some, while there are some amazing recruitment consultants out there, there are some that perhaps are not as good as giving the service as others, right?

What [00:08:00] would your advice be?

Matt Kirk: bad one can be really damaging to someone's job, searching to someone's career in general, to be honest with you. But me and you are different, mate, in some, in one way than most other architectural or any other recruiter, because most recruiters work for a business and. A lot of the time, if you're an architecture recruiter, it's not an architectural recruitment business.

It's just a recruitment business that has an individual recruiting architecture in, right? And they're not being told to do a good job. That's not I think most of the time an architect is being asked to do a good job or, whatever, an architectural professional, they're there to do a good job, right?

A recruiter isn't there to do a good job. They're just there to. produce money and you know there's a lot of pressure behind them from a director from somewhere on high to produce money even if that means you're putting a placement in or trying to force a placement or trying to oversell something or even lie about something and you know it's going to fall apart.

This month, my [00:09:00] figures will be an extra five grand or six or whatever it's going to be. So I think there's a huge, and I almost don't blame them. I think there's a huge amount of pressure that, you know, and the younger you are, and I think most recruiters are in their twenties when they start, or teenagers when they start out,

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Matt Kirk: I think it takes a long time to lose that.

Mentality of doesn't matter what I'm doing. I just want to make a put it, put two things together, and if you've got one option to make a candidate happy and there'll be a better fit for a client and it'll work out better, but you make an extra grand by not sticking them in here and put them in here instead.

You'll go with the grand. You won't make, you won't do, I think that's the difference between a good job and just trying to make some money. Um, And I think that's where, I think that's where we get a bad rap, mate. Recruiters in general and

Stephen Drew: I agree.

Matt Kirk: because it's so easy to get it wrong.

Stephen Drew: I agree. And I think that's important, your point you're making. Let's flesh that out because, so for anyone in the audience that has not worked in recruitment or that you're in architecture, you're right. Behind the scenes, the bit that not much recruitment consultants talk about is how it works.

[00:10:00] And maybe maybe Matt, we can flesh that out for the audience. Typically a recruitment consultant is not part of the architecture practice. Very rarely. Very rarely, typically they're a third party and they're briefed by the architecture practice, which is very busy. They don't have enough time to find this person or they can't find this person because they're really rare.

And then they give what is, what's called a brief to me or Matt and they say, I need a science architect who's done laboratories or a BIM manager, something rare, because our time, we charge. The architectural practice to find this person. And for that, they have to think they the company has to be at the point where they're prepared to do that.

So typically the jobs that I will get, Matt, and you tell me if it's similar, they were usually hard to find people. They're not students or entry level jobs. They were usually You know, can sometimes [00:11:00] be a part too if the practice is super

Matt Kirk: Okay. Very occasional for me. Very occasional.

Stephen Drew: exactly. So there it's somewhat strategic where we got to go find people and you're right.

And then as a business, there's all overheads in recruitment consultants. So there's this constant thing where we have to look for those people. Get those people in time, charge a fee, pay the overheads, the business keeps going. Now, the reason I fleshed this out is because once you, as a candidate or someone looking for a job, understand this, actually it really helps work out if you should use a recruitment consultant in the first place.

Because what I was going to say, Matt, and I appreciate we've got a few Carmen's coming in. We got old Jason who's saying that he likes it. We're doing well. Thank you, Jason. I appreciate that. But we've had a lovely comment from Issa who says, Hi, can you help me look for a job as a Part 1 Architectural Assistant?

And I think this fits in with what I've been [00:12:00] talking

about here, Matt. And I always recommend architecture students at the start to become their own

recruitment consultant. Get

their CV out there direct, apply to many places, not just one or two, go for interviews and see, what do you feel the same for graduates? That's a good advice.

Matt Kirk: yeah, I think there used to be a thing where, you just want to collect the CV and put it in a database and move on, I think that is a danger, but for me, it's, I can't help you at the moment. I can support you. I can give you a limited amount of time.

Let's have a look at the CV. Let's spend a If you want to have a call for 20 minutes and talk about it after work, whatever, no problem. I'll give you that time because that's part of doing a good job, right? That's what we're saying. That's doing a good job. That's being nice. And maybe in five years time or 10 years time, when that person is, of great value to a practice, then, which I'm not saying they're not now, but, to us maybe the more value to us then you know we've got a good relationship with them and we've helped them so that's you know it's all good it's all useful but yeah no when I get approached by [00:13:00] a part one you know my response is try to try and coach them through the process of doing it themselves rather than me do anything whatsoever for them because bear in mind Issa that someone's got to pay me four grand five grand you know whatever it's and your skills And you're at such an early part in your career that you haven't built a specialism.

You haven't built any niches. You haven't built those skills up to a point where someone's saying, okay, this is worth four grand, five grand to me. And that's nothing against you. That is all, nearly all of fact, it will be all part on architectural assistance. So that's my point of view and make that pretty much agree with you,

Stephen Drew: exactly. And I think most companies will typically hire. A student direct, and

you're right,

Matt Kirk: course.

Stephen Drew: as being involved, it just doesn't make sense. So that's why it's good that have that chat with people. I try to have a lot of content on thearchitecturalsocial. com so that people can do it themselves.

Matt Kirk: thought myself about creating a resource attached to my website somewhere to [00:14:00] rather than having this very long time consuming process, listen, go and have a look at the resource. If you've got any questions, come back to me, but here's a, here's, half an hour's worth of reading and a video or something that might help you out, but no, it's great that you're doing that, mate.

Stephen Drew: We all need to do it. That's the thing, isn't it? Because that's the one thing I'd say when I was a fresh architectural assistant, I washed up on the shores and then you finish your degree and then you go out there and get a job and you don't have a blooming clue, do you? And and I, and I'd love to know your thoughts on this as well, because I used to work alongside some students at the time that would spend ages getting that CV and portfolio.

for two or three practices that they love, and I think that can be good for the one or two, but then they would wait on that, not get a reply, or maybe they would spend,

Matt Kirk: that's it. Spending all that time to do one activity or to get that out to two or three places and you've got your heart set and then bear in mind there's 500 other people have done the same thing, and it's not that they're not looking at your stuff and say, I think, that's special.

Probably not looking at it at all.[00:15:00]

Stephen Drew: yeah,

Matt Kirk: I'm really, I'm not saying don't do it, you need to spread the net a little bit wider

Stephen Drew: exactly.

Matt Kirk: early on in your career.

Stephen Drew: chances are you won't know about a company, you apply to them, you learn more, or what I find sometimes is you go to an interview that you've, you want to work at that company and you go and you might not enjoy it as much as you thought, because when you're there, you get a sense of the character.

So I do think it's really worth people Just being open minded, especially at the start of their career. What's quite interesting is that Nicholas has said, I think that the beginning of your career, it makes sense to use recruiters, but if you're experienced, it is better to contact the companies direct but it's hard to find the right person sometimes.

So I, I'll be honest, Nicholas, I've If you don't agree with that, I think that a recruitment consultant like me or Matt, if we're very busy, we've got lots of roles on, we're not likely to help someone at the start of their career. I think that's when you should go to companies direct. However, Nicholas, you do make a [00:16:00] good point that it's hard to find the right person at companies sometimes.

And I think that goes on to where a recruitment consultant can add value because me and you, we have different. Pockets, Matt, of connections. You've, you're, different companies up North, different directors, you touched upon earlier that you spoke to that part too, who's now a director and stuff.

And equally, I've been doing this for 12 years as well and met people. And I think. In there lies the truth that different recruiters have, should, if they're good, and the industry respects them, is that different directors use them over time. And that's where I do think we do know the right person to speak to, but I think it's disingenuous for a recruitment consultant to say they know every company.

I don't know every company.

Matt Kirk: The ones that say they know every company don't know every company themselves. I remember I can't remember which, I won't mention it anyway, but I can't remember which recruiter it was, but there was a few back in about 2014, [00:17:00] 15, and they tend to be large businesses and they get on the phone with candidates and they'd say what companies are you happy for me to send you to?

Let's go through a list. But they'd list every single company in Manchester. They don't know. Yeah, they don't know those companies. Yeah. And I think the benefit of using a recruiter is apply, come, what are you going to say?

Stephen Drew: Nah, it's just

like A to Z, like you're doing, yeah, it's oh, we work with these. We work

with these.

Matt Kirk: that creates a situation where if the desperate though, and someone ends up working there, they're like, Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm charging you a fee 'cause I've sent you that candidate. You haven't really, you're just spec in a, that they probably haven't even looked at a random cv. So I'd be wary of someone who say it makes you a list of 10 companies, 'cause the reality is if they're only good, they've got five or six clients that use them all the time for everything and they're, know, that company can phone 'em up and just say, Get me a Revit technician.

And you know every other, you automatically know them, right? You know exactly what they're looking for. Then you might have, and then I've got probably a periphery of another 15 or 20 companies that come in and out, use me [00:18:00] whenever. I think we've all got that, right? But if you're sitting there saying, oh, I can get you into any company in the region and I, no, you, what's going to happen is they're going to probably very damagingly spec out your CV to hundreds of potential directors.

Without, and I always say this, these terms, without context, without any analysis, without any it's, they're not, you might have a great conversation with them, probably not actually, but you might have a great conversation with them. Do you think that most of the time they're going to use that, they're going to view you right up, that they're going to sell you in the right way to these people?

Because if they did, it might not be quite so damaging to do it. They tend not to, it tends just to be a CV into the inbox and they're just trying to get lucky. And if they send 5, 000 emails a week, they'll get one interview out of that. And that's what they're using you for.

Stephen Drew: It's, I want to flesh that out a little bit more because I think that this is one of, this

Matt Kirk: I've done that by the way, mate.

Stephen Drew: pardon?

Matt Kirk: I've done that before. I don't do it now, but that was a long time [00:19:00] ago. I used to, that used to be my mainstay of my business. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: It was encouraged

Matt Kirk: Let's be honest.

Stephen Drew: I'm not going to say particularly, but what I mean is you went to pressure, like you said, and, or I would try to get someone's permission and then you would go, and this, and if they say, okay, that's fine, then you would really go for it.

And I think it doesn't. It doesn't work for a few reasons. I want to give, I want to expand upon that. I want to explain to the audience what we're talking about. So this, what's called a spec, is a speculative application. Now, sometimes,

A

Matt Kirk: even an application though, mate. You're giving it too much credit. It's just a speculative email out of the blue. I'll probably go to spam nine times out of 10. So it's not an application. Application means that there's possibly even a job there in the first place. There's probably no, there's nothing.

Stephen Drew: I know. But Let's break it down Let's break it down for the guys because they don't work behind the scenes. Me and you do.

Matt Kirk: No. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: So what happens is potentially a recruitment consultant will say, Oh, I work with all these different companies. And the truth is they might have worked [00:20:00] out a while ago.

They might have never worked with this company. And what the goal is to get your application to get your permission to send it over and then they will send it speculatively which means that the email is not known it's there's no urgent role there

it's

Matt Kirk: There's no relationship either.

Stephen Drew: there's no relationship and then the chances from the back of that.

that the company will then work with the recruitment consultant. So the downside of that is that your application can be sent. They don't work with the recruitment consultant. And therefore, does your application get seen? Does it get ignored? Is there a process there? And also. If you've got permission, it's one thing, but what I have seen, especially before GDP, GDPR, and happens a lot after, is that sometimes, some recruitment consultancies, and I can think of a few that I've competed with, that do this all the time, is they send CVs without your [00:21:00] permission.

They just send your application to the company on the hopes that they can get an interview. So if you've ever heard some nonsense from a recruitment consultancy Oh, I I was just in a meeting with this company and we were just speaking about you and they'd love to meet you. That is bullshit, which is true because the first, that company has probably sent you CV wrote permission, which is highly illegal.

Your information's out there.

Matt Kirk: It's damaging as well to your job search, because what happens when, so you're a director of an architectural practice and you see the same CV land six times

Stephen Drew: Terrible.

Matt Kirk: recruiters, you're thinking this person's desperate. So when you speak to Stephen Drew, who's got a relationship with that company and they're giving them a spec a month later, they're giving you a brief a month later and you're thinking, Oh, that guy is probably great for that.

Stephen Drew: Yes.

Matt Kirk: But that decision maker is already prejudiced against that individual on the CV because they've seen it land that many times. So they're going to see it land from you and they're going to go, Oh, it's [00:22:00] that guy who's desperate and it's just

Stephen Drew: Oh, and there's different salaries, and so it's

Matt Kirk: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: one's real, and maybe different dates. So it's, so I think the number one thing to avoid that, because first of all, I always like to give the advice of. Don't use too many recruitment consultants. Pick the ones that you want to work with. Have a look at them.

It's basic. You should be thinking, do I wanna work with this agency? Do I like they, do they resonate with me? Are they in the areas I'm looking for? And then have an honest conversation with a recruitment consultant. And now I think what can be effective is if you say, listen. I haven't approached any other recruitment consultants.

I'd like to work with you for these roles, this role. Let me know an update on that. I'll work with you for a week and then we can see where we are. If you do that and you're clear with the recruitment consultant, I think nine times out of 10, they will respect that. And then what I would say is if the recruitment consultant has been naughty [00:23:00] and done things without that you've agreed on.

Then, you shouldn't work with them again, and you should pull them up on it. Matt, what do you think? Is that good advice, or?

Matt Kirk: I think it's good advice. I think the way to spot it is someone not asking too many questions and just seems in a rush to press the send button.

Stephen Drew: Bang you out. Yeah, we need to go quick, that kind of stuff.

Matt Kirk: They're not asking too many questions. It all seems a little bit too good to be true. That's, it probably is. Not that me and you might not call people up and offer them the dream job, but you I I was recruiting a job in Newcastle recently, spent a month nurturing this guy, but he sent his CV. By the time he got his CV together and sent it to me, it'd been to four or five other agencies. They'd spec'd him into the company that I was working with. Every single one of them by that morning, I wasn't desperate to get him out.

I was like, okay, I've got the CV. Let's talk about this at 11 a. m. I want to make sure it's right for you. And and I didn't lose out on anything because at the end of the day, that CV landed four or five times and, in the same inbox. And I'm like, who's this [00:24:00] desperate? person who, not being sold with context or with, and so how desperate are they to get you out?

That desperation speaks bloody volumes to me.

Stephen Drew: I think maybe there's a lesson to learn from that. I think if you're searching for a job, having a very... Quick, easy list of where you've applied for and for what agencies is really useful. I do agree because sometimes, but I know it can be a mistake. I have genuinely spoken to candidates who have gone, Oh, sorry.

I thought I hadn't applied to them. However, you have to keep a list because otherwise, if as Matt says, say now Matt sends your introduction in, then I send your introduction in just because I send it doesn't mean that it's going to change. So just, I think that, and I, the way it works is that you can re return your CV every six months through a different agency.

So loosely, if you keep that in mind, I think that's really useful. So yes, it does matter. Now I am, I think. [00:25:00] On the top of my head, Matt, that's the worst practice that a recruitment consultant can do is send a CV without permission of the candidate. Are there any other red flags you mentioned earlier that when you're speaking to a recruitment consultant, if someone in the audience is speaking to them, they should be wary about?

Matt Kirk: Yeah, just that desperation. It's not going to help if the, a lot of recruiters are extremely early in the career and don't last very long. And, we were all that we, me and you have been there, man. And we've been, you're just both admitted to doing that practice that we're saying that we should, some of the practices that we're saying that we shouldn't do.

I

Stephen Drew: At the start you think that's the way. don't you? You think that's what the industry is, and then

Matt Kirk: If you're looking, if you're Yeah, and if you're talking to a recruiter who's the first six months into their career, then do not expect that person, of course, do not expect that person to have a load of quality relationships and to understand anything about the industry or anything about you or to be able to advise you another way.

Let's make, and I can imagine you can offer a lot of advice, if someone maybe, [00:26:00] yeah, maybe not give, just give good news. Like I will know, 55, 000 might be a bit too much for. A two year post qualified architectural technician in, what's the quality of the advice that you're getting? Are you getting any advice whatsoever? Are you getting any coaching advice? What is, you, come on, most people can tell the quality of the service that they're being provided. Pretty, if they were really hand on heart, they could tell.

Stephen Drew: and I think sometimes a good recruitment consultant is being honest with the situation as well, and sometimes I do think that I find myself saying actually that level of salary that you're looking for is probably unachievable at certain companies, and that's not me saying offense. I know that the person's Very good.

However, there are some realistic stuff that happens behind the scenes. And the other one, which I think is unfortunate, but true, is that especially we talked about junior to mid career, you're gonna need to learn Revit. I get bored of saying it. I don't mean that [00:27:00] because I'm sponsored by Autodesk, although Autodesk, you can pay me money and I will take it, but I'm not.

It's because most of the companies use that, and I would love to have microstation roles for people, but I think at the moment I have one, and that's it, and that's it.

And so

Matt Kirk: Vectorworks once in the last six months, but that was it,

Stephen Drew: exactly. And so again, that's one of the things I would say is that. The truth is, if you don't know Revit, I know it's catch 22. You want to learn it in the office, but actually doing stuff like that will help your odds, and you're a recruitment consultant generally, the other thing I wanted to say is that they're typically looking at a CV for 10, 20 seconds if that, three, five, 10 seconds, get an impression.

And if it's good, you spend a little bit more time on it. However, if it doesn't take the things on the job.

Matt Kirk: Same with a decision maker in a company though, mate. Same with that director that you're sending it to.

Stephen Drew: Correct.

They're busy.

Matt Kirk: when I'm spending time with someone with a [00:28:00] CV, which is another, do they understand whether your CV is good or bad is another good, but when I'm spending time with someone with a CV, I'm trying to get them into the mind of that person who's looking for them.

What do they want to see? And I'm sorry, you need to almost treat them like a child. Because they're not, and not because they are like a child, but because, they're going to have the attention span of a child around your CV, so if you're not hitting those, and some of it, a small part of its keywords, a bigger part of it is, it does the start of your profile and your CV read a confident team player or creative architect with, is that kind of just filler?

These are things that they're going to assume you being an architect, you're quite a creative person or, everyone's who's not a team player, who's going to admit to not being a team player. It doesn't mean anything, to get that killer information into there. Something that's more important that is gonna get their attention straight away.

Don't fill it with filler. With rubbish, basically.

Stephen Drew: I agree. It's I like to compare it to Tinder. If you've been dating, you swipe to the left, swipe to the right. It really [00:29:00] is that quick. Ooh,

Matt Kirk: Met my missus on Tinder,

Stephen Drew: yeah. My partner too. So I agree.

Tinder for the win. I must have made past the two seconds. Goodness, knowhow. , while we were talking, we've had a flurry of stuff coming in, and I think we can answer some

Matt Kirk: Oh, a lot of people watching it.

Stephen Drew: there must be Mr. Or Mrs. Anonymous as, are you admitting that you're both old timers, Matt? I'm an old timer, unfortunately

Matt Kirk: How old are you, Stephen?

Stephen Drew: I'm

Matt Kirk: You're younger than me, aren't you? Oh, I'm 37. Just 37.

Stephen Drew: All right, and I've been

Matt Kirk: I look older, though.

Stephen Drew: I don't know, maybe

I've got

Matt Kirk: Northern. Northern lifestyle.

Stephen Drew: yeah, I was in Manchester for two years, I loved it, I love

Matt Kirk: Yeah. It's not as good as Liverpool.

Stephen Drew: never went

when I

Matt Kirk: a Scouser, mate.

Stephen Drew: I've been there now,

Matt Kirk: love both cities equally,

Stephen Drew: I love the Beatles, but that's so patronising, there's more to Liverpool than that, come on,

Matt Kirk: Is there ? Oh there's two football clubs. Great ones. The best Two football [00:30:00] clubs.

One of them's the best, one of them's a bit

Stephen Drew: I'll leave that there for now because we've got too much stuff happening in the comments. There's another question that came in, which would be a very interesting one saying, I'm a chartered architect in India with 3. 7 years of experience, but no UK experience. That is a good bit we could talk about. Can you tell me how a recruiter perceives this behind the scene as I get calls from a recruiter but gets a radio silence afterwards? Thank you, Siobhan, for that. I will be honest, 99. 9 percent of the roles that I get from architectural practices Require UK experience, unfortunately, which then means that if you're in the UK, if you're trying to get a job in the UK, it can be very difficult.

It's not impossible, but if you are remote, an architectural practice is not going to entertain that. They're going to look for people that are there, present, have the right to work as a starting point, and then go from there. [00:31:00] I've, in the last 10 years, I've had one. Very talented lady. It was currently based in India and she got the job because she knew Revit and she had 10 years of hotel experience on international complexes.

And there was no one two years ago after the pandemic in the UK or very little with that skill set. So she got sponsored. That is the one time that I've managed to do that in 12

Matt Kirk: Bear in mind it's, it is that, it's that thing again, with recruit, with, with the junior people, Shivan, you know the. The problem is that, there'll be a perception that you don't understand UK building regs, which are very different to where they are in the rest of the world and, you obviously need to get that experience but there will be people here that are willing to give you it, but again, are they going to pay me or Stephen 4, to do that when You know,

Stephen Drew: No.

Matt Kirk: there's a massive influx of people, you're from India, right?

There's a massive, there is, there's a lot of people that apply to jobs from India, left and center, and they want the same thing [00:32:00] as you but, so they're not going to pay us for it, right? The way you do that is to make yourself in it. As a track, know, I don't know you speak to Steve and speak to me at the end of this, make yourself as attractive as possible and do it yourself.

Don't use a recruiter to do it because again, you just, you've got absolutely zero chance. Yeah. How many placements you've made in the last 10 years, Stephen? 500, but one in 500,

Stephen Drew: Exactly.

Matt Kirk: one as well in the past, 12 years. One.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's the key thing. What I would say on that, so let's expand on that, how I would begin to do it is immediately I would move to the area where you want to get a job. And actually, the most, statistically, the most jobs in the UK are London. And that's not even me saying London's, forget that, it's just more architectural

practices. post op. Yeah. So when you move to London or you get an address on that on that CV, you get a UK phone number. And basically you say you're in town, you go for interviews and I like to bring the [00:33:00] objections to the front. So for example, if you do have a graduate visa for two years, I like to say that straight away.

I do not need sponsorship for two years. I'm currently in the UK. I'm ready to work, I can interview in person, because you're basically removing these objections straight away and it gets your chance. And once you're in, I always think of it like a nightclub. Once you're in, right?

You've got that experience and you never have that

world of pain again. But unfortunately, it's going to be like being smacked in the face so long. And it can take some people one month. It could take some people 11 months, one year. It can take a long time. But actually, just getting all that stuff I think makes a big difference.

And also, I normally try to again, all the resources online on the ArchitectureSocial. com on your website, which is the annoying recruiter. com and

Matt Kirk: that's right.

Stephen Drew: TheAnnoyingCandidate. com.

Matt Kirk: No, theannoyedcandidate.

Stephen Drew: The Annoyed! My goodness,

Matt Kirk: com. Theannoyedcandidate. com.

Stephen Drew: The Annoyed [00:34:00] Candidate.

Matt Kirk: Got two websites, right?

Stephen Drew: you've got two. But I think you get all that information and you should really also think, especially I think if you're UK, because different, there's different styles of CVs from America, India, Europe, UK.

It's just, there is, it's just a look, and I do think that it's really worth actually spending a bit of time and get a CV. Like for example any, I used to see CVs 10 years ago, which would have the Euro certificate on them,

and Architects, it ain't gonna work. You gotta get rid of that. There was like a

Matt Kirk: You are right about that.

Stephen Drew: there was a

template for resumes for the, for EU citizens,

Matt Kirk: Do you know where they got that from? Because someone once told me where they got it from, and it was from an official...

Stephen Drew: exactly!

Matt Kirk: some description. I don't know where, but

Stephen Drew: but it doesn't work in our industry, and you have to look like, what is a good architecture industry? And the one, I always like to look at the architectural practices, and look at their websites, look at their graphic design, and think Are they gonna this document? [00:35:00] Ultimately, that's, it's gotta fit in, do you, have you got any thoughts on that before we take a few more questions from the audience?

Matt Kirk: it, mate. Nailed it.

Stephen Drew: Alright, oh, sorry, I got, I know. It's just,

I think it's

Matt Kirk: passionate then. It's

Stephen Drew: Yeah it's, I think people get stuck and they don't know what's going on and I think

Matt Kirk: good, mate. I felt mesmerized. It was good. Enjoyed it.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. Okay Shivam says he's currently in the UK, Part 2 qualified from Stratacliff and now experience massive projects. That is amazing. So if you take those projects and look at what we talked about earlier, I think Shivam, that will probably help you with your search. But one last thing I'd say on

Matt Kirk: Strathclyde might not be the easiest place to do that. And there's not as much of a shortage. There's more of a shortage in London. And so bear in mind when you need a visa, there has to be a shortage in order for them to get the sponsorship, to get places. Don't really buy places. Annoyingly Shivam, you might not be in the right geographical location to make that easy on yourself you might have to go to London, you might have to,

Stephen Drew: [00:36:00] That's all right. Just come on down. Just come on down and make

Matt Kirk: everything's going the opposite way, everything's going the opposite way, I'm getting Southerners moving, selling the 5 million quid houses that they bought for 90 grand in 1997, and they're moving to Yorkshire or somewhere and living it up.

Stephen Drew: yeah. My, my flat 10 years ago in Lewisham was half the price of this now. If I, if you took the money out and then you moved to the countryside, you'd be quits in. However, another flat in London, it's just another flat in London, so

it's weird. It's, it is weird. So we got a few more coming Matt, all these questions are hot on demand.

Ralph says, even when you have specialist skills and experience, it's still difficult to rise to the attention of recruiters. What's the best way to get in touch for a conversation? Matt what do you think is the best way to get in touch and make an impact?

Matt Kirk: I like it when people phone me and I don't know them, but I like to also see what's in front of me. So I need a [00:37:00] CV And I'm guessing Ralph, you probably are sending CVs and not getting the responses that you want. I would look at the CV and see what's going on with the CV and I wouldn't suggest contacting a CV professional who writes CVs, I suggest contacting the best recruiter you can find and tell them about your experience and asking them, can you help me?

And, can you help me make that it's maybe it goes back to that killer and filler stuff. Let me guess the start of your CV tells, tells the world that you're a team player or you're a creative person or whatever it is, when there should be some good quality, hard hitting technical information in there, which is going to really go.

Oh, okay. Oh, I need that. I need that, healthcare guy with Revit experience, who does stage four of a project really well. I'm very much generalizing. I don't know. I'm just saying I'm being specific, you, you can tailor it to each job. You can tailor it to each person you're sending it to, if you need to, if you're really struggling with it.

But get, start thinking differently about the CV. I think the problem probably Ralph is your CV, right? If people. If you get, if you're [00:38:00] struggling to get a conversation or to get in the door to get a conversation with a recruiter, send them a CV, look, work on the CV first, send them a CV and they'll phone you.

Believe me,

Stephen Drew: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's an interesting one because sometimes I do think that people wonder why there's not an update. And I think that's partly down to a recruitment consultant not being honest. I like to be honest and say I haven't yet an update from the client or you're not suitable or

Matt Kirk: sometimes it's time. I've got, I think I've probably got ADHD. I struggle with organization and time like crazy, I'm on it most of the time, but I know there's someone that I should have called you. I say that I didn't, and I was on, I was focused on something or whatever it is, but yeah, most of the time.

If it's initial conversation, first conversation, then yeah, you are going to struggle for attention. That's

Stephen Drew: I think I agree with you. But where, what I was also going to say is though. The sad truth is, though, if you're checking in for updates and there's still no updates, if you're on sending that email for the third time, it's a dead

end.

Matt Kirk: [00:39:00] rough. that's yeah. It's a

Stephen Drew: And I get it, but that's what it is. Sometimes I speak to a lovely person, I haven't heard from the client, and I'm like, I don't think it's going anywhere, because sometimes architecture practices, and again, like you were saying, you're busy and stuff, it's never, it's, I don't always get feedback when I send over candidates not always, and therefore, sometimes silence is an answer in itself.

Is that a bit harsh, but true to say?

Matt Kirk: I've got one, I've had one or two clients in the past who say we don't hear back, we don't like them. Then I've had clients who don't come back and they've just missed it. It's really annoying, isn't

Stephen Drew: I do get it. I like, is Jeff still available? And you're like, Jeff's gone months ago. Are you digging through the inbox or something? What's going on? What's going on? Yeah. I get, maybe that's the thing that we have to remember it's a human process and there's no one way. There's no like a rule or a system we do.

And we're people, I'm a person, you're a person, the client's different and therefore there's no one way. [00:40:00] There's just. Certain things that I think happen and I like to shine a light on that.

Matt Kirk: totally.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, we've got more, we've got more things. Have you got a little bit more time, Matt, before we go? Yeah.

Matt Kirk: I'm here as long as you want, mate.

Stephen Drew: Legend.

Look at

Matt Kirk: Lazy. Lazy recruiter.

Stephen Drew: That's not true. You are hardworking. I won't let you say that about yourself. Nicholas says a few things, and one I like this. How do you know if a recruiter actually has a relationship with a company? I have a few thoughts on this, but first of all, Matt, what are your thoughts?

How do, if you were the candidate, how would you Start

Matt Kirk: Why don't you ask them some difficult questions?

Stephen Drew: Yes

Matt Kirk: even, what's the pension like? And if they hesitate, they don't fully know what the pension statutory or not, or what are the holidays. And it might just be disorganized like me. Or they might be talking out the [00:41:00] backside, because most of my really good, all of my really good clients, I can list every reason why you would want to work there, otherwise I wouldn't be working with them.

They wouldn't be one of our best clients. So are you not, look at the engagement that you're getting, look at what you're getting back. Are you, are they able to do that? Are they able to, tell you basic facts about why you might want to work at a place or, is it, does it feel very transactional, and that might be a bit of a clue, I think.

Stephen Drew: I think so. You're right. I do. There are some times I would say, though, I don't always have a job spec. And that's when I think some people think, oh, there's no job spec. It's not

Matt Kirk: I usually don't. I make notes. I take a brief. Yeah. I don't have a, yeah.

Stephen Drew: Exactly. So that one, I think, It's neither here nor there, but you are right. Really, I think if a recruitment consultant is engaged with the company, they can tell you 10 to 15 things about the company, and they can at least say who they're working with,

Matt Kirk: how long did they describe the company for? Is it 10 seconds or is it 5, 10 minutes? My poor candidates [00:42:00] sitting there, listen to me evangelizing about a couple of handful of companies, for half an hour at a time, I know that business.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And that's it, isn't it? And it is a little bit on you, the job seeker, to... Question, the Recruitment Consultant I have had it one other way though, where once before a few months ago, I did have someone who was incredibly suspicious on all this stuff. And then at the end, by the end, I was like, do you know what, if you don't trust me, it's cool.

Don't worry. I'm online.

Matt Kirk: Stephen. I don't believe that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I would, it happens. So I think. Check in makes sense, as the person can always have the job spec? No. Should they know the company? Yes. Should they be able to tell you what projects are going on, where they are, how many people are there, what's the office like?

Yeah.

Matt Kirk: a little bit of the history, of the business, if you need to know it, because you'll pick, you pick that stuff up, very easily as a recruiter.

Stephen Drew: I

Matt Kirk: Good question.

Stephen Drew: It was a good one. Now we are getting to the end of the questions. [00:43:00] Shivam says, thank you for the insight. Thank you. Yep. I'd love to keep in touch. Mohammed has one question. Let's see. This is a big one. So I got to read it. I'm living in Leicester, the UK and I have a Master in BIM from Oxford Brookes.

Amazing. Good for you. Having two years as graduate visa, I'm looking for an entry role in BIM Technician. As I don't have any experience in the UK. What is your advice to me? I'm open to relocate as well. So it's a little bit about what we talked about before really, isn't that? So I think it's like.

Make sure you're present in the UK. I would be messaging architecture practices, multidisciplinary companies, because BIM is quite transferable, engineering companies and just getting your CV out there as much as possible and spreading your bets. And then I always believe you can be picky when you've got interviews and offers until then be open minded.

What do you think, Matt?

Matt Kirk: Master's in BIM Management is great, isn't it? BIM Management, because you the consultants, you can, you don't have to stay, you can go into a more digital space, not just the built [00:44:00] environment space with that. So make, the options are really open to you. I think. The only thing I'd add, mate, is when I've had people with student visas in the past, people are looking at whether they've got a year left or two years left.

People are looking at thinking what's going to happen in that two years, because especially when they're using someone like us and they're spending money on it, they want a long term investment. So people tend to look at three to five year. That's what they want out of someone, three to five years, possibly even more than that.

So it might be a good idea to get some experience doing some contract jobs. If you can get a good one or two contracts, as in non permanent jobs for the next couple of years, then you might look quite valuable or, much more valuable by the time it's time to get your proper visa.

Or you might be with a company that already values you and they can... They will then, it's very easy to gain sponsorship at that point. So I'd keep the options open to contract jobs. If you're struggling for permanent jobs, I think that's, that might be quite important for you.

Stephen Drew: That's a really good piece of advice. I didn't think about contract roles. That's a, I've seen that as well, because contract roles, compared to permanent roles, contract typically means that [00:45:00] you work in there temporarily, paid per week, and There's typically less scrutiny when you get in the job. It's okay, can you fix this problem a bit?

Usually if you're a Revit, like Ghana at the moment, you can contract somewhere and actually you're right, Matt, because then you get your experience and then your next, you could do it for two months and then get a

Matt Kirk: And you're not a graduate anymore. You're not a graduate anymore. You're not facing the same issues that other graduates have got. You're already here. It's, it should be fairly straightforward. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I think you're right. Think, take, either, or. We have got here as well, Jason saying that it should go for engineering companies.

Message Jason after this with your CV, Mohamed! And then you'll be

Matt Kirk: Everyone messes Jason with the CVs at the end of this.

Stephen Drew: Yes! You've got to come to the Nuclear! Get the Southfield, make good money out here. But

Matt Kirk: Not bad, mate. Not bad.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I, I find it interesting. So Zen says thank you for the insight. I'm more clear now with recruiters role.

It's a very tough job for sure. It is. [00:46:00] Don't feel sorry for

Matt Kirk: I know Zen, someone who struggled a little bit. I know he's been probably messing. I know he's messaged me. I think he's messaged you, mate. He's got, a few issues with Visa. So hopefully this will help, mate.

Stephen Drew: Poor thing. It is difficult. It is difficult. I do think that there is a list of companies in London, which are big enough to sponsor visaships. I do think a graduate visa for two years, most companies forget about it. They're like, oh,

cool. Just

Matt Kirk: they do.

Stephen Drew: just come on in. And so if you do have that graduate visa, put it at the front because you.

You're removing that objection, I think sometimes I see some grad some people have visas, not mention it to the end of the process when an offer comes in. And actually what happens is that person just waste their own time. It's unfortunate. So actually just mention it at the start and then you get all

the objections out of the way.

Matt Kirk: that goes with any, anything like that, though, anything that might cause a slight problem or delay, if you've got any experience or you've got some things in your background that, you think someone might not like, if you say it up front. Immediately in a process [00:47:00] and they carry on with that process.

Those are things that no longer objections, the senior, despite those problems, so definitely bring things like that up immediately, and it might, if you put someone off great, you're saving your own time, but it also. comes across as honesty doesn't it and it can be quite a positive thing for you to be to produce say it in the right way it can be a positive thing that you're being honest

Stephen Drew: I think so. I think that's really good advice. Now, for anyone in the audience, Jason, you're getting the CVs. It's too late. You participate. You're getting the CVs. Now, for anyone in the audience, if you have any quick last questions for me or Matt, fire them in there. However, until we see if one or two come in or not, I've told Matt.

to give me one or two zingers online of questions coming my way. So this will be a test of our friendship, professional relationship. Come on, Matt, what have you got for

Matt Kirk: i've got some more i've got i have got some tougher ones but i want to start with i just want to ask you what's the we're talking about you know [00:48:00] the dodgy star of our careers what's the worst thing you've done

Stephen Drew: The

Matt Kirk: that you can admit to

Stephen Drew: the worst thing setting up my own business. Was very tricky and leaving a recruitment company to do that was very tough. I did get told on the way out that if I do anything, I will get a legal letter. So that was the toughest. The stuff I look back on is definitely at the start, be

Matt Kirk: there by the way

Stephen Drew: And not in that company, yeah, it's a tricky one, but not in that company, but I have been, especially maybe on my first company, so the one year ago, the pressure, the temptation to go I'm going to go out of business if we don't do something.

What do I do? Do I? And then it's like convincing people to go for jobs you're not sure that they are right for. And I didn't like that. And I was in a very tricky situation. And that really was a bit of a moral dilemma. I'm a bit more relaxed. For example, a lady yesterday who I spoke to turned down a job.

For me, it's non emotional. I get, okay, no problem, [00:49:00] let's keep in touch for the future. But when I started, Matt, someone turned down a job, you were like, oh! What have I done wrong? Or I convinced people to change their mind and ultimately

Matt Kirk: Well, it impacts you financially as well, doesn't it?

Stephen Drew: What would happen is I realized if I convinced people to go for jobs that weren't really the right fit for them, there was a massive dropout rate because they would realize that going to the company is not as what I said or whatever.

So I, I don't think it's the right thing to do. My other regret though, is seeing people in. Even in my business years ago, so not the Architecture Social, I used to own a company called Shaped Careers, and I probably now my views are like, we don't do that, we get everyone's permission, we, we I'm a big believer in convincing people to go for interviews, I will say to someone, you should never turn down an interview I'm a bit more relaxed when they make their decision now, but years ago, know, I.

I should have told people not to stay on [00:50:00] that line and

I just kind of kept to myself. I'd let people, you hear all the horror stories, loads of specs out, and I just stayed out of it when I should have been like,

Matt Kirk: If anyone out there ever meets a recruiter who tells them not to go for something is probably a good recruiter,

Stephen Drew: yeah, I agree with that.

Matt Kirk: Advise that even though they could make money off it right now, but it's in your best interest not to do it. Let me ask you something else, mate. If you could go back, would you do the architecture? Two questions in one, would you give up, would you do the architecture course? Number two, if you had a son or a daughter, would you be encouraging them to do architecture right now?

Stephen Drew: Okay. Number one, I love doing the course.

However, it's helped me set up my business. It helps me look at things and look, I've got a certain

perspective. So I love the course and I don't mind my time there. But if I continued in architecture, it just won't write for me. It just won't write for me. And in, in what I call recruitment, I think of it as the hardest, I jokingly say it's the hardest, not real job in the world.[00:51:00]

It's because in one way it's harder than architecture, which I consider a proper job, but this is a job and any recruiter, sorry, it's a joke. Come on, just get with me. But this is harder and I enjoy it. And I don't think I'd be as good as I would if I didn't do the architecture degree. But again, for example, I don't stack up the cash as some other recruiters do and they don't work in it.

So it's all different. I

Matt Kirk: point at me, I'm not stacking up the cash.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, but me and you

both,

Matt Kirk: I'm trying to do a good job, not just make money,

Stephen Drew: exactly. But what I mean is though, I don't, we choked to the start. I don't think you need to come from architecture. I do think though that a good recruiter immerses themselves in the industry and it is the test of time because it is tempting to go and do.

A banking recruitment and then twice as much. But I like the industry,

Matt Kirk: Oh yeah, of course. It'd be very easy. Yeah, you're right. It varies to find a better paid profession where the percentages are higher and all that [00:52:00] kind of thing. It'd be very straightforward to do that. But, we're here for a reason, aren't we? I don't know quite know what it is sometimes, but yeah, no, I'd love it, mate.

I've left it for a very brief period of time and then come back to it. I love

Stephen Drew: really? That's just a lot, doesn't it?

Matt Kirk: Yeah, I came back to it. I like dealing with architects. I like my clients. I like a lot of the personalities, it is challenging. It is difficult to find certain skill sets and to deal with certain people.

And, it can be heartbreaking telling people no, sometimes. But one of the good things about it is, They're a professional bunch, aren't they? They do turn up to their interviews. They don't, do you know what I mean? They're on a, there's a level of professionalism that they don't, that tends not to get dipped under.

And there's a level of personality that tends, you can't really be someone without personality and being an architect. I've not met many architects or techs that don't have much, they're all quite interesting to speak to. They're all quite nice, so I wouldn't change it now. I'm stuck here the 15 years.

Stephen Drew: me too. We're [00:53:00] stuck. It could be worse places to get stuck. And I agree with you. I do. I do, and also I do think the industry is in an interesting period, architecture actually has got a lot of change. You touched upon kids in the future doing architecture. I have mixed feelings I do think I am very sympathetic for students at the moment because the amount of debt

that you accrue for the salaries I think is

Matt Kirk: How much would it be mate? I'm not, someone was trying to work it out on one of my posts the other day and I didn't, I was busy, so I didn't take it up, how much would it be now? What would it be do you reckon?

Stephen Drew: grand. If you think about it, it's five years hardcore in uni. Forget the apprentice scheme, which they're doing, because I think that's the answer to it. But, so right now, as it stands, it's five years in uni and you've got one year in between and you're yearning for that.

But then there's also two years out. So those five years are nine grand, okay? So that's nine fives forty five. But if anyone's been in uni, you've got to feed yourself, you've got student [00:54:00] dorms, all the prices are going

Matt Kirk: It's a full on course as well, isn't it? It's not one of them where you're doing eight hours a week, or four hours a week or whatever. So you can't go and work

Stephen Drew: you've got to buy,

yeah,

You've got printing materials, all this stuff. So it's about 70 to 90 grand. And then you, if you're in London, you, as a part one, you get about 24 grand. If you're lucky, maybe 22.

Matt Kirk: but it keeps going up because the interest will be getting added onto that. That's the not, you're not reducing the debt at that point, by the time when you're earning like 50, 000, bear in mind, they're charging 9 percent for everything over 50, 000 pounds that you earn. It's just a lifetime tax.

It's still not going to go anywhere, but that's, I've been in a position where I was paying my student loan at 300 pounds a month, and that's a real thorn in your side. It's a real problem, you

Stephen Drew: Exactly. And also, in that year out we talked about, if you're on 22, 23 grand, that's hard to live in London. You ain't having a, you ain't having a good time. You're like, you're in some box room doing stuff. But then again, I think you've really got to have the bug for it. Okay? Because like me, You said, why didn't I do it?

I just didn't [00:55:00] have the appetite to do my part three. It just wasn't there. It just, it wasn't in my vocabulary.

But if you want to design a building, do schools and hospitals, change lives, I get it. It is a great job and you can actually make a difference to the urban fabric. However, you've got to really want it.

So that's what I'd say to my kids. I'd be like, this is bloody hard. You ain't getting a lot of money. Are you sure you want to do it? And that's what I would say. That's the honest version. Have you got any more zingers or was that all zinged out?

Matt Kirk: I think we've zinged ourselves out haven't we a little bit.

Stephen Drew: We're zinging out, it's at the one hour mark. We've got

a

Matt Kirk: think we are one hour, aren't

Stephen Drew: We got one last quick question from Nicholas who says, Should I stay in my discipline as a Structural Technician or should I change discipline in order to have more job offers? I don't think you should jump to a different discipline.

Maybe work in a multi disciplinary company where you get to see different things, Nicholas. But don't worry, we all get A little bit [00:56:00] worn down in the job search. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very normal, but no, remember you did it for a reason and you have a lot of cool skills. Just maybe change the job search to some shape or form.

And on that note, I'm going to tell you where you can find Matt, all of his good stuff. And we'll, I'll mention the Architecture Social as well, but Matt. If people want to get in touch with you, if for whatever reason they've actually warmed up to us and they haven't turned us off by this, how does someone get in touch with you?

Matt Kirk: So my main website is the annoyingrecruiter. com. That's right. I've got another website, which is a little bit naughty called The

Stephen Drew: Oh, I zoomed in on me by accident. Forgive me,

it's a

Matt Kirk: you did.

Stephen Drew: I didn't mean to. It's all about me, is it? I feel

Matt Kirk: That's fine. That's my, there you go. That's my main website. A little bit about me, a little bit about jobs. That's about it. How to get in touch. And then I've got The Annoyed. Candidate. com, which is a little, oh yeah, there we go, a

Stephen Drew: I love it. This website. Very [00:57:00] naughty mug. I need to get one.

Matt Kirk: little bit off the wall.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I love it. A bit quirky. If you want if the theme of this episode what I enjoy and I think is really important about what Matt does is he's very honest about the recruitment process with a cheeky wink. I love it.

The Annoying Recruiter. There

you, go, that's the statement.

Matt Kirk: Thank you, mate.

Stephen Drew: You can put that as a quote on your website. And I think that the Annoyed Candidate is a great resource. Everything on the Architecture Social podcast is not sponsored. Me and Matt met genuinely behind the scenes in a WhatsApp group from the Broke Architects podcast.

Matt Kirk: Thanks, Jason.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Oh, don't say that! You take all the credit.

Matt Kirk: Don't want to encourage him.

Stephen Drew: bless him. I do love Jason, but Matt, I love what you do, and I think we need more recruitment consultants in the space who are genuine. If you are looking for a role of course, you can speak to me, especially if you're up north.

I do think you should get in touch with Matt as well. And you [00:58:00] can work with both of us, and we won't get upset about it,

because we work with different companies. It's fine. And even if there was one in between, I'd be like, let the best gentleman win,

Matt Kirk: yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Stephen Drew: it's all good. So thank

Matt Kirk: right on the phone to my client.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I really appreciate you being here

Matt Kirk: Thanks, mate. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Stephen Drew: you're welcome. And on that note, I'm gonna end the livestream in a second. Matt, stay on the stage. But for you and the audience, if you thought this interest, if this episode was interesting, I'd love to know because it's a little bit on the nose for me.

But if you like brutally honest content like this, we can do more of it. We could get Matt back. I'll convince him. Don't worry, we'll get him. But let me know if you like this kind of stuff. Or if it's too much and you want to talk about other stuff, let me know in the comments. Have a good Friday and speak to you soon.

Take care. Bye bye now, everyone. Take care. Bye bye.

[00:59:00]