Small Practice, Big Impact: Claire Nash on Cash Flow, Clients and Confidence

0240 - Claire Nash
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[00:00:00]

Welcome to the Architecture Social Show
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone and welcome to the Architecture Social Show. I was joking with my guests here because it's been a little while since I've done one of these. I feel rusty, but that's okay. We will. Will power through. The theme of today is important. Often, I've had some really cool guests here, which are large architecture practices, medium architecture practices, but we have to remember the humble roots in the uk.

Stephen Drew: Most of the architecture practices are small to medium size. And I was joking with my guest, how small is small? I'm talking about maybe a few of you are thinking of running an architecture practice. Maybe some of you are running your own architecture practice. Maybe you're doing it yourself, or you have a team of one or two people that is the bulk of architecture practices in the uk.

Stephen Drew: And to talk about this, to bring me up to date with what it's like [00:01:00] to run an architecture practice, I have not only an author who's written two books, I haven't even written one book. I have a bell around you somewhere. But if I had it, I would go, ding. Because. How do you run a, how do you make books?

Stephen Drew: How do you run an architecture practice in the UK at the moment?

Introducing Claire Nash: Author and Architect
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Stephen Drew: So to unpack that, I should introduce my guest and I have the fantastic Claire Nash with me. Claire, how are you? Are you okay?

Clare Nash: great. Thank you. Thanks for that introduction.

Stephen Drew: I think I might have had one or two many coffees before coming on, but the show goes on. I'm quite excited. Claire, while we were getting to know each other before we, before we c we've, we started recording this, maybe some people in the audience rr read your book yet or haven't found out about Claire Nash architecture yet.

Starting an Architecture Practice: Claire's Journey
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Stephen Drew: So can you quickly introduce yourself?

Clare Nash: Yeah, so I'm Claire Ashton. I've been running my practice for 14 years. I set up in the last [00:02:00] recession with no clients, and I just started with postcards in shop and that kind of thing. Yeah, and we are now a team of six. We were nine for a while in the post pandemic boom, but we've gone back to six, which to be honest, I prefer it's a bit easier to manage.

Stephen Drew: Oh, bless you. I, we were a team of six at the architecture social as well. So maybe this will also be an impromptu coaching session for me because you've been doing it longer. We have to be a little bit crazy to be an employer in the current market 'cause there's so much responsibility and of course we want to do it right.

Stephen Drew: But maybe you can give me the journey. I love that you mentioned about postcards doing the business development. So it was just yourself at one point before getting to six, I'm guessing, clay, do you wanna run me through a little bit of that, buildup?

Clare Nash: so it's just me for the first three years. And actually I didn't want a team. I wasn't sure if I could manage people. I get really annoyed when people interrupt me, so I just thought I'd be a grumpy boss [00:03:00] and, but I just, I started blogging and then I ended up with way too much work. I had 20 projects and it was just me.

Clare Nash: And the, the only route out of that was either disappoint clients or, get some help. So I started with my first employee 'cause I was teaching at Oxford Brooks at the time, so it's quite easy to find a student that could work part-time, a part two student. And it's better than bar work and good experience for them.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Clare Nash: And yeah, and that worked way better than I expected. So when she moved to Australia, I replaced her with two people and then it just grew from there really.

Stephen Drew: Wow. Okay. Fair play.

Challenges of Running a Small Architecture Practice
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Stephen Drew: So at first, doing it yourself, but realizing that you can't do everything yourself and building it up, maybe we can set the scene on the type of projects you do as well. Meanwhile, I'll bring up your website in the background so people can get a flavor, if that's okay as well.

Clare Nash: Yeah. Yeah. So we do brand conversions, that's mainly what we're known for, but also eco homes. And for years I've had quite, its sort of geeky eco [00:04:00] blog, which, people would either find me via those or, if they just wanted to bog, like not bog standard, but just, straight arch, normal architect, then they'd come in the front end.

Clare Nash: And then I brought the eco stuff gradually more to the forefront. More basically after Greta started doing her stuff and people got it a bit more.

Stephen Drew: Oh, it's anything but bog standard. I think. Clay, it's actually really nice stuff. I'm just gonna bring through a few as well. I was joking again before we recorded, isn't it? I always wanted a bond conversion, however, now I'm in Central London. But maybe for any, what's the different type of approach to doing a bond conversion compared to new buildings?

Stephen Drew: I'm guess you're dealing with existing buildings a lot then. Is that what you do? A lot of refurbishments, additions and all that kind of stuff Then.

Clare Nash: Yeah, exactly. And when I was, I mean I, when I first started out I did interior architecture as a degree,

Stephen Drew: Oh, [00:05:00] really?

Clare Nash: mainly because I thought I wouldn't last seven years 'cause I tend to get bored of things quite easily. And then I just don't apply myself. But I got really into it and then decided to switch later on.

Clare Nash: But interior architecture is literally refurbishment of buildings. It's not cushions and curtains and stuff. So I feel like that was quite a good start focusing on that. But we do new builds now, self-build, small developments for small developers as well. But I definitely started out with the Turning Barns into homes thing.

Stephen Drew: Oh, fair enough. I think it looks really good. We can go back to it as well. But perhaps, can you paint a picture? Because at first a lot of people, I imagine they think having your own architecture practice, it's the dream, it's gonna be easy. However, we know as both business owners, it's quite tricky, isn't it?

Stephen Drew: There's lots of different things going on.

Managing Cash Flow and Client Payments
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Stephen Drew: And one of the things, and we'll talk [00:06:00] about your books again in a little bit, but what is it like then running an architecture practice is, it's not nine to five at the start, truly, is it Claire? It's all encompassed. You're going for it, right? What was your experience?

Clare Nash: Yeah. I think most people would probably start with some clients. Like they'd leave their job with clients in place because it was a recession that didn't happen. So in the early days, I had to another job as a dinner lady, essentially to

Clare Nash: Money

Stephen Drew: you have a bell and everything? Sorry, I am interrupting you, but you hear to the lady?

Clare Nash: But it was good fun. It was really social, and I liked the people I work with. So that got me out of the house and socializing things while I was building it up in the background. And then eventually I got too busy and had to give that up. But yeah, it definitely isn't easy. Like first you have to get round the thing of am I charging enough?

Clare Nash: And all the money mindset stuff. And then later on when you employ people, cash flow's a major issue. [00:07:00] 'cause payroll's the same every month, but projects go up and down. It's just the nature of architecture.

Stephen Drew: Oh, I felt I've been there before. If you'll allow me to share for webinar, I had exactly the same thing where we had a flurry of projects come later on and I knew they were coming, but there was one or two quiet, painful months. And you're right, cash flow was tricky. And then when you get those projects in the way, it tends to work in my business, maybe it's the same for you.

Stephen Drew: So you'll send an invoice for a period of work and then the client will pay 30 days after. Sometimes they don't pay then you're chasing them, Claire, isn't it? And that puts this anxiety on you. 'cause you're right that this, the payroll has to go out the same day. So how do you even begin to start solving these problems, Claire?

Stephen Drew: And making life easier for cash flow.

Clare Nash: Yeah, the bit, cashflow, I don't think you can completely solve it purely because there are so many delays that are out of our control. It's not I dunno, say, being an accountant where [00:08:00] the only delays really are caused by HMRC or your clients for, . It's everyone. I'm mainly planning, but lots of other things as well.

Clare Nash: So it's unpredictable, but I've found the best thing to really mitigate it is to charge 50% upfront for every stage. Because then you're not working in debt. You're not in debt straight away. You've got money in the bank to fund and resource the project. And then there's a time at some point in the middle when you reach break even point, and then you're nearly finished and then you charge again.

Stephen Drew: Nice.

Clare Nash: So it just mitigates that. And also it right at the beginning, it gives you confidence that people are gonna pay because they have to pay to start the project, and then they have to pay to get to the next stage. And so it's really, it's basically they just have to pay. And then if you, if they, if they, if know at the end, if the, if they don't pay the second half, at least you've got the [00:09:00] first half. Whereas there are plenty of people who've been in a position where they've only realized the client's not gonna pay right at the end, and they've lost all of that time and then they have to chase them in the small claims court or whatever, and nobody wants to do that.

Clare Nash: So if you establish early on that they will pay, that's a big, that really helps with the anxiety

Clare Nash: Of being a business owner.

Stephen Drew: I can imagine that might be a new concept for many people, because, am I wrong in thinking, Claire, that the norm is to charge once the work's done at the end? A hundred percent. Is that right?

Clare Nash: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Okay. And now what I can imagine is there's this mental block that architects put in their heads.

Stephen Drew: 'cause now there's 50% upfront, concept. That's probably to some people, revolutionary new concept. But then do we as humans sometimes put barriers of why we shouldn't do that? So if you explain that to some other, our architects, do you find sometimes they go, [00:10:00] oh no, I can't do that. I don't think my clients would like me to do that.

Stephen Drew: Or I won't ask. That seems rude. That's not what's

Clare Nash: Yeah, I felt exactly like that. For years I didn't do it. Yeah. And then I just got really paid off with it. And, I thought, why do they get, like here, I, by that point, I've been running a business for a few years and I was like, I'm an established business. I'm on company's house and all that stuff and they are just a nobody in comparison, a complete unknown entity.

Clare Nash: So why should I take all the risk? It makes no sense because I'm, for them I'm the least risky thing, but I'm on by punting on them and not charging them a deposit. I'm taking a huge gamble. 'cause I dunno them.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, that's true. It begs the question why people don't do it more at the start, doesn't it? And what did you find the first time you asked? Were you nervous for doing it? And, but then the client agreed and then you were like relief. Is that right?

Clare Nash: Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely nervous about [00:11:00] it. But it's, it is you hit a wall, it's like, what are the consequences of not doing it? The consequences are more stress, more anxiety, more worrying about cash flow. The consequences of doing it are maybe a slightly embarrassing conversation

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Clare Nash: at the worst.

Clare Nash: Or you find out they don't wanna do that, in which case, not a good client anyway.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Clare Nash: And yeah, and I never had a no or why do you do that? Or nobody's ever queried it. It's really funny. So there was all that kind of mental barrier and for the client is yeah, okay.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, it's, I find this is really interesting actually. I think this would be really valuable for business owners because we put these objections in our head. I know I said that before, but it is so true. Anyone, I do it the same in business all the time, and you have to remind myself not to do it.

Stephen Drew: And the other bit that you mentioned there is that awkward conversation, especially when I started in business. Rather than having the conversation, I would get, find myself getting [00:12:00] stressed, Claire, about imagining what was said and not, or thinking, oh, maybe they're gonna do this and that. Do you find that over time, having these awkward conversations over and over makes them easier as you go in business, Claire?

Clare Nash: Yeah. Yeah. And it helps, I think the first time you do an awkward conversation, it's helpful to have a bit of a script in your head and to practice some of it, and practice if you're worried about it, like practice saying some of it with conviction, because confidence just wins on difficult conversations.

Clare Nash: So over time it's become easier, mainly because I'm more confident about why I'm doing stuff, because it works and I know my process better than they do, so it's quite easy to, yeah. But the beginning, you just, you have zero confidence. I'd never done extensions before. Because I'd been working on, bigger like school projects and prisons and [00:13:00] healthcare and stuff like not related at all.

Clare Nash: So it took a while for me to believe, not believe I knew I could do it. It's just if you haven't done a particular thing before, it's really hard to stand there and be like, yeah, you do it like this 'cause

Stephen Drew: Yeah,

Clare Nash: Whereas now, and I've done lots of bond conversions, I feel really confident I know what I'm doing with the bond conversion.

Clare Nash: And so that comes across without me having to put anything on.

Stephen Drew: yeah. No, and I appreciate that. Did you, I tell you, I felt especially the first. When we set up our own business, I dunno how you felt, however, you know the first invoice, you almost send it. You've got your zero and your I, you almost, I almost felt like not a fraud imposter syndrome. I was like, oh, you're gonna send an invoice.

Stephen Drew: I'm charging for it. Ooh. And it's funny now when you are invoice like number 300, 400, you just send them out. You're like, quick, I got the payroll, let's go. Whoops. Slight error. Don't matter. Check it. Credit control and chasing debt as well. Claire, did you also feel like the first [00:14:00] time, it's quite a weird situation where you, your client, which you look up to, you're like, we have an overdue voice.

Stephen Drew: What's your experiences on both of those two? All good points.

Clare Nash: yeah. I get a bit miffed actually, because I think it's quite rude not to pay an invoice on time. And I get that sometimes people go away and they forget about stuff. That's fine. But, in which case they just need a reminder. Fine. But, if it's more than that though, I'm like, what are you doing?

Clare Nash: I'm a small business here, and, it's, I can't, yeah, I feel like there's sort of mixed values sometimes, but on the whole, generally people pay on time and it's just like a forgetful thing or something.

Stephen Drew: yeah.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I've noticed as well little inside the tip maybe to the audience that actually reminding companies that your, small, enterprise has been useful for me saying we are a boutique recruitment agency with a team. This, these invoices are very [00:15:00] important. That reminder sometimes has been really helpful.

Stephen Drew: That's what I found too, but it's getting over that imposter syndrome, that it's okay to chase a debt. I found really interesting. Maybe on the

Clare Nash: had a, when it was just her, she had a pretend chap. She called Bill who did all the invoicing and all of the chasing, and all of the tricky emails and stuff. Obviously he never made a phone call 'cause he didn't exist, but she found that really helpful. As a com compar. Oh, compartmentalization thing.

Clare Nash: That like she put her hat on and she could pretend to be Bill then, and then you get over your like, oh, people aren't gonna like me 'cause I'm asking them for money, sort of stuff.

Stephen Drew: It is a, it's a good, it's a good idea. And I'll confess, for the first year of our business, the account team was in my partner in real life's name. And then, yeah, it's the same thing. They call up and go, oh, Philippe's not here, but I'll take the call of what's happening. Oh, okay. Get invite. Okay. Can we [00:16:00] sort it out?

Stephen Drew: Yes, I've even done that. It does help because it is hard, isn't it? When if your client facing and you've gotta ask for money. I completely agree with you. It's well within our rights. We are doing. It is getting over that first, isn't it? And do you find an architecture as well? I wonder if this comes from architecture.

Stephen Drew: I have found, especially working when you've got a prestigious client or a good opportunity, or for example, if I'm working with a famous client, I found that initially I would be enamored Claire. I'd be like, oh, I'm so lucky to work with 'em. And it was way harder for me to do the stuff that I would normally do.

Clare Nash: Yeah. Yeah, I've had a bit of that as well. A bit. It's like I've never worked with anyone famous, but I've been a bit starstruck in I think they're really impressive business people or something. Yeah, and also 'cause our incomes are widely different. I've worked with people who have got plenty of money to fund [00:17:00] really good projects.

Clare Nash: And I'm not in that category. I'm doing pretty well, but I'm not in the millionaire category.

Stephen Drew: No.

Clare Nash: so yeah, I had to get over that as well. Even at one point I had a stupid thing in my head where I thought rich people were automatically bad, which is just total rubbish. 'cause you don't change your personality if you become rich.

Clare Nash: It was just the same person with more money. And and I actually found out like a backwards way that some of my clients were millionaires. I was like, oh, that lovely person over there is a millionaires.

Stephen Drew: yeah.

Clare Nash: But, because it wasn't really obvious until like I put stuff together in my head, I was like, oh yeah.

Clare Nash: But,~ um, ~because I care about the person, not the money, but the money pays for the project and that those are the projects I want to do. And it means we can, we're not scratching round on small fees. We can, you've got work booked in and it's enough to keep the practice running and you can do a good job with that money rather than always scraping the barrel and just about paying your bills and there's [00:18:00] nothing left and.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, the it I, same it. Sometimes I lean into the concept to talk about money. One, because I think another, and maybe it's a less of an architecture thing, but I think especially how we're all brought up in the uk, it seemed bad to talk about money. So we don't talk about salaries, we don't talk about fees.

Stephen Drew: And then all the problems come from low fees. Low fees will mean in under-resourced projects. You can't do nice stuff with the staff. You can't do this salary increases, which are, talk about inflation. Yes, we would love to pay, staff salaries in inflation, but are we inflating the fees? And so there's, it is, I think it's a, it is a very good thing to do. I was gonna ask one more question around that topic of, when you're starstruck by a client or something, because have you found Claire, maybe less on the revenue side, but you are doing these beautiful bonds, have you found sometimes when you get a charismatic client or you are like, wow, super cool client, then maybe they have some design [00:19:00] decisions that they're passionate about and you are in your head, you're going, oh, everything against my grain is telling me we should do it another way.

Stephen Drew: But it's more challenging to say that than perhaps with another client where it was more of a neutral approach at the start. Have you ever found out

Clare Nash: I haven't really, mainly I find we're quite aligned in terms of taste. I guess because they see stuff on my website and I like that. I don't like that, but I like that. So I see what she's done there. Okay, let's go and work with her. And some people have approached me like that. They're like, I drove past this building that you did.

Clare Nash: I don't actually like it, but I can see what you did. So can you do something similar over here using those same kind of that framework. But I have pointed out stuff quite regularly. Like you're giving your dogs the best view and things like that, like very practical things which aren't subjective.

Clare Nash: Yeah, because I find that's quite, you're just giving them facts. It's, it doesn't have to be [00:20:00] emotional then. Yeah. And that I'm also not that bothered. I'm not, an architect that cares about shadow gaps or what skirting board they're gonna choose.

Stephen Drew: yeah.

Clare Nash: I just, I. I, yeah, I'm not a detailed person.

Clare Nash: I'm more of the overall kind of thing. As long as the spaces are working, the light's good, and it feels happy. I'm happy.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough.

Marketing Strategies for Architects
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Stephen Drew: I have brought up what your website, what you're talking, not only because the projects are really cool and they are beautiful and makes me want another barn con, I want a barn conversion. But we touched upon websites there. 'cause that's interesting. So you, the, is the website, the portal to the, your projects?

Stephen Drew: As a small business owner, we, everything falls on our lap, Claire, from doing the payroll to the website, how have you found marketing the website and all that stuff, has it been then super important for you to get right or a bit of a pain in the bum sometimes. What's your feelings on how to promote [00:21:00] yourself to the wider, architecture clients out there?

Clare Nash: I really like marketing. And yeah, what I realized at the beginning, I started going to business networking events and listening to other business owners and being like, oh, this marketing thing sounds fun and quite useful because it means I can attract the right clients and, I can move away from extensions, some of which I'm enjoying and some of which I'm not.

Clare Nash: And I could see, that there was more interest, lots of interesting work out there that I wasn't getting because I wasn't demonstrating it. Yeah, so I started blocking about bonds and then people, because I'd just got a permission. So I wrote about how I'd done that and and then that attracted people and they rang up three months later saying, you are obviously the expert on barn.

Clare Nash: And I've thought to myself, I've only done one, but yet I'm quite happy to be the expert and, and it grew from there. And that, so yeah, blogging was really efficient at getting me the right [00:22:00] clients. I also have a, an ebook download so that I get people on my email list who are my ideal client. So I keep writing to them so that in the hope that when they have a project, they'll remember me because I keep popping into their inbook inbox with useful stuff for their project.

Clare Nash: And yeah. And then on the website it's it's important for me to like show enough about our personality so that people are drawn to working with us because they've got the same values and the same things that they care about, because then they will be great to work with.

Clare Nash: That's what I want. I wanna like a magnet, pull those people to me rather than me going out to try and find them.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Fair enough. That makes sense. So it's a lot of work on that front. And also sometimes clay, how I've geared, sometimes people go, and I do it too sometimes. We are busy running the business and I'm doing this, doing that and working in the business. Sometimes not working [00:23:00] on the business, which was a concept I never heard of before.

Stephen Drew: But marketing, sometimes they feel like it's easy to put it off. Oh, but it's also so important. Do you still believe that constant marketing is so important to keep your keep you keep getting work coming in?

Clare Nash: Yeah, it is. And I suppose, it is difficult because the client work is urgent because that pays your bills. You've gotta get the stuff out the door, otherwise you can't invoice.

Stephen Drew: Yep.

Clare Nash: But what I found is having a, either like a daily thing where you do a small task each day that's heading towards a goal or.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Clare Nash: For quite a few years now, I've had Marketing Mondays. 'cause I find people don't bother me too much on a Monday. But they do on a Tuesday. And so it gives me a bit of quiet time to just crack on with that. And I don't feel under pressure 'cause people aren't ringing me up. And say, where's this thing?

Clare Nash: Or what are we doing about that? Yeah, so that's where I get the consistency. [00:24:00] But every so often I'll do a strategy of this is what I need to do to get to X. And then I'll split it up into segments so that I can actually get it done. But that's not to say it's perfect. Like I get overwhelmed and swamped in architecture.

Clare Nash: They're like, oh crikey, I haven't done anything for two weeks or whatever. And and then I have to get back onto it again. But in principle it does work.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Clare Nash: And I don't find that Monday spent doing mostly marketing and business stuff. Has affected, the profit at all in a negative way? Because I'm not doing the architecture as much.

Clare Nash: In fact, I think it's better because it's got me further.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Public Speaking and Networking Tips
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Stephen Drew: And I know it sounds, some people might laugh when I say this, but I used to be quite nervous about public speaking or doing stuff online. I know I'm chatting all over LinkedIn now, but, I, I do speak to a lot of people, business owners in architecture. We did joke when I said, how have you written so many books?

Stephen Drew: But [00:25:00] everyone has different sets of skills and not everyone enjoys presenting and not everyone feels comfortable marketing. They might be shy. They might be embarrassed. Do you have any advice, Claire, for people getting out? Are they shells and. Getting more and more used to being that outward facing client marketing role within their own business.

Clare Nash: Yeah, I'm really shy and a massive introvert to just put a big caveat on, like a disclaimer on it or something. But, so if I can do it, everyone else can definitely do it. But I would say that. My strengths are definitely ideas, marketing, that sort of thing. I'm not a detailed person, so that helps for sure.

Clare Nash: And then I found, I find it quite intimidating going to a business networking thing and then also really time inefficient in terms of how do I know who to speak to. And, I mean I enjoyed them from like a, it is nice to have a chat with other business owners' [00:26:00] perspective and the speaker, you'll learn something from them.

Clare Nash: But in terms of actually getting work, it's way better to be on the stage because then the whole room sees you and they come to you if you are the right person for them or if you've got something that they want. So that saves you a hell of a lot of time and, and people can remember that two years later they'll be like, oh, I remember seeing you at this thing 'cause you did a talk and now I'm ready to do something.

Clare Nash: So it's really impactful. Yeah. And then years and years ago when I was at uni and you have to do your presentations about your project, I would sweat for weeks beforehand. I was absolutely terrified. And then it was even worse when somebody, the tutor or something would ask me questions about it. It's oh, don't ask me questions.

Clare Nash: That means I have to stay here longer. And just, I hated it so much. And then, but when I did my final project, I was so excited about it that I forgot about everybody else and just talked about it. And, I thought, oh, that's it, that's [00:27:00] what it is. You just gotta be interested in what you're talking about.

Clare Nash: And then you forget you. It's not to say I'm not nervous. I am, but not, I'm not sweating. I just, I'm literally nervous just before I get up kind of thing. And if I didn't have that'd be a bit weird, I think.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I think so. It's always a challenge, but then. Eco, the tip that I have is that, so I heard online, when you speak at the crowd, if you just look at the crowd, it can be overwhelming. However, if you lock eyes on one person, it's easier. I, sometimes I giggle in my head 'cause it feels like you're not torturing that person, but you can see them looking.

Stephen Drew: And some people are like, but it's just, it breaks it down, doesn't it? Because then you are having a co, it's like you're having a conversation with one-on-one. You're speaking to this person, you're speaking to that. And then also the other thing, even like now, the before you go on stage, the number one thing you're thinking is, oh gosh, how long is it going to be?

Stephen Drew: But when you're presenting it just flies 'cause you are in the zone. I [00:28:00] dunno, do you have the same thing?

Clare Nash: Yeah. Some talks are definitely harder than others. I find architecture talks in j like I did a vernacular talk a while ago that was harder 'cause there's more stuff to remember, like facts and things. Whereas when I do business talks, it all just comes from me and how I feel and what's in my head and stuff.

Clare Nash: So those ones flow the easiest by far. Yeah. So it, but they're both, all types are still worth doing. But you definitely have to be interested in what you're talking about. You can't just stand up and talk about anything, I think personally,

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I,

Clare Nash: you want to train as a personal speaker.

Clare Nash: But yeah, from the marketing side and getting brave on social media, I st I remember doing my first Twitter post years and years ago and then expected lots of trolls to appear and say all sorts of horrible things about whatever I put out there. But at the time it was just a really nice community on there.

Navigating Social Media Platforms
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Clare Nash: And I'm finding the same on LinkedIn now. I don't bother with Twitter. [00:29:00] I know it's X but I don't bother with that anymore 'cause it's become too political and I don't think my ideal client is there that much really. But I like LinkedIn. It's nice place to hang out and I've never had anyone say horrible stuff.

Clare Nash: Sometimes friendly criticism, which is welcome. Yeah. And the same on Instagram. I just think we're quite lucky. The architecture world's quite nice in general,

Clare Nash: That the most criticism you might get, which I have had is occasionally I've put up a complicated eco detail or something like this is work in progress and discuss it or something.

Clare Nash: And then somebody might go, why have you done it like that and things. And if I was sensitive I might be like, Ooh. But I just think it is pointless being like that 'cause they don't mean it personally. It's like they're trying to be helpful.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. No, that, that makes sense. I agree that LinkedIn, especially business two business is great and I think that as well. For example, you are right. Business is a bit of free flow and we both have our own [00:30:00] lit of businesses. I'm making mistakes all the time and that's where I enjoy it. And I think it can get lonely sometimes when you run a business, isn't it?

Stephen Drew: So I do think that speaking with pe, other people on LinkedIn or having those conversations about cash flow and finding your own network is really important.

The Power of Real-Life Networking
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Stephen Drew: It was interesting you mentioned Instagram, 'cause I can see that being good for clients as well, but also, I, and this is me being naive, but do you find like you would find sometimes some potential clients maybe in Facebook groups in the local area, and you mentioned earlier like door to door knocking.

Stephen Drew: Have you found that being present physically as well as online has been good then climb

Clare Nash: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'd say Instagram. I do get clients from there, but it's more of a backup 'cause you need the seven points of, people getting to know you. And clients have said to me that sometimes they've met me somewhere, either in real life or they've seen me online and then they stalk me on Instagram.

Clare Nash: That's their words for it for a while. [00:31:00] Yeah. Or they might sign up to my newsletter list, so that's good. But one of my best places to find clients has been gardening club,

Stephen Drew: yeah.

Clare Nash: which is real life. And I just go, 'cause I like gardening. But yeah, it because people get to know you slowly and then at some point they're like, oh, I've got a project.

Clare Nash: And they think of me first. 'cause I'm always a gardening club.

Stephen Drew: yeah, it's, I think that's so important. 'cause you can get sucked into the online world, which is important, but the real life world is where stuff like that happens. And I think that as well, remember in the old days people used to get sales calls all the time on the phone. It's less now, but that means there's an opportunity to speak on the phone, go to these events.

Stephen Drew: I met another interior designer, Claire, where what would happen is she signed up to, a golf club in the local area. She didn't have a partner that played golf, but she just went there. And what happened is all the gentlemen were playing golf and the wives were in the club enjoying [00:32:00] themselves, reacting.

Stephen Drew: And she picked up all the clients there 'cause they were like, oh yeah, I want to refurb and all this stuff. Is that what you do? Oh, come down and have a look. And that's how she got work. Just being present on a Saturday and Sunday, enjoying the club,

Clare Nash: yeah. Anything you do that you enjoy that, that, that's the thing with, you feel like you have to go to a certain place because it's business networking and you should do that, but you have to be quite careful about wasting time unless you know there's specific people there. That you want to talk to.

Clare Nash: Whereas on the other hand, you can go like me going to Garden Club, I go there 'cause I enjoy it. I don't go there to find work. Work has just come as a extra, a very nice extra.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. But that's what, some, I read a story about another architect practice in London where he was cycling to MIP in, and the gentleman cycled to MIP in, and the other cyclist happened to be a developer. And there you go. A project came out of it. So it does happen.

The Importance of Niches in Business
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Stephen Drew: The other thing that you mentioned before we were doing [00:33:00] this, which I thought was really important, is, you mentioned profits.

Stephen Drew: By doing niches or riches in niches as I like to call it. I know it isn't that niches. Niches, but you get what I mean. I agree. I think it's so important. Some people think you should be a generalist. What would you say to them?

Clare Nash: I just think it, you're thinking about it from the client perspective, they're going online with a specific project in mind. If they come onto your website and it's oh, do a bit this bit of that bit of something else, it's hard for them to identify or know that they're in the right place. Whereas by being really niche down, and mine's really, I just put everything into barns and eco is secondary behind it. But I still get plenty of people asking about extensions and all kinds of other projects because they like the general ethos of it. 'cause I, [00:34:00] and the other thing is when you're really focused on a niche, you become really confident about it and that shines through, which attracts other people, whether that's.

Clare Nash: They're actually that niche or not, but they're still the ideal client, the person you want to work with. So I've attracted developers because they're not looking to live in those homes that I create. They want to sell those homes, and they like the values and so on. So it's still I wasn't necessarily thinking this is aimed at developers.

Clare Nash: When I was writing it, I was just thinking, this is my ideal client. I'm writing to them. And it, and yet also the other thing is like, small businesses don't have massive marketing budgets. So people like Apple or Domino's or McDonald's or whatever, they do it by mass marketing and they're on your tele every night.

Clare Nash: DFS always has a sale. Everybody knows this because it's on your tell every night. And that is proper mass marketing. But those budgets are enormous, so they don't have a niche. It's like a [00:35:00] sofa is for everybody, but. Whereas if you have a niche, you can be very specialized and specific with your marketing, and it hits a smaller proportion of people, but those people are your ideal client.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. I love the fact that you've said that because I think that when we're building online, platforms, you, you can get caught up in big numbers. I want big numbers, big followings. However, I also feel the same. I would rather a hundred followers, where 10 of them will. Transact with me compared to a hundred thousand that are transient, not purchasing or whatever.

Stephen Drew: It's so important, isn't it, as a business owner, it's a, that you engage with people that are gonna use your services, right?

Clare Nash: Yeah. And that you're not wasting time that you can fight about like just spitting stuff out on social media. And, if you don't know who you are aiming that at and you don't know who you're writing [00:36:00] to, then it just, it won't do anything. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I, you,

Clare Nash: a lot of people are afraid of losing their existing bread and butter by niching, and I don't think that happens.

Clare Nash: 'cause all the, from my experience, it hasn't happened. And from what I know from other businesses that have done it as well, it definitely hasn't happened. It's just strengthened the brand.

Stephen Drew: yeah. That makes complete sense. I, the only thing that I've noticed, and I want to get your thoughts on this, I believe that there are riches in niches. However, let's pretend I specialize in a sector and that sector's not doing strong in the market. It almost feels better to be a generalist.

Stephen Drew: What would your advice be in that scenario, Claire? Is it then more about pivoting as quick as possible, or do you think you could specialize in two or three key things rather than one? What's your thoughts?

Clare Nash: Yeah, definitely. So [00:37:00] without diluting. So focus on one niche. Definitely get that really good and you'll find other stuff comes in anyway that isn't directly that, but they like your stuff, your style, the way you do things. They're your ideal client, even if it's a different sector. But then, so for ex the trouble with the domestic market particularly is it can be quite fickle.

Clare Nash: Whereas commercial developers will just keep going through a recession because they see the long game. Whereas homeowners are like, oh, I don't need to borrow money at the moment, so I won't. It's it's a non-essential. And architecture for most people is a non-essential. It's not like a lawyer or a doctor or something where you have to pay the money because it's essential.

Clare Nash: But so it is good to have another sector and that's why I diversified into garden design as well because it reinforces what I already do. Existing clients want it. It's an added extra for developers [00:38:00] and it fills in gaps.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Okay. Get makes sense. And what the last bit on that point, 'cause sometimes they think, say now. We went all in on bonds and let's just pretend that bonds were outer trend or they were. No, I know that's not the case. I'm being dramatic. Do you think that the right thing then is to pivot quickly in business, is what I'm trying to get at.

Stephen Drew: How important is it to adapt? Or do you think that sometimes it can be at the detriment to just go, Nope, let's keep going. It will be okay. Or do you think in business you have to pivot?

Clare Nash: you have to pivot. Definitely.

Stephen Drew: Yeah,

Clare Nash: And bring, and if you are consistently listening to what your ideal client wants, that should be viable. So you're not just rigidly staying in, this is what I want to do. I'm gonna stay doing this. You're actually listening to the market and finding out what they want and adapting to provide that.[00:39:00]

Clare Nash: I think that's how you always stay ahead and looking at future trends, like using that pestle analysis thing and seeing how that might affect your business in the future, and planning for that and strategizing so that you've got Plan Bs and things in the wings. Which would, the worst case scenario is you've got an extra thing you can offer. That's it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, that make

Clare Nash: yeah.

Stephen Drew: It makes complete sense. Thank you. 'cause I just wanted to labor that because there's no point going down with the ship, isn't it? We ke we have to keep move. We have to be fluid. So I really appreciate you reiterating that.

Balancing Business and Personal Life
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Stephen Drew: Now with, there's the books, are we gonna get into that?

Stephen Drew: But just before we do the books as well, you have a mentoring group. What's all that about? I love it. Tell me. That's so cool.

Clare Nash: Yeah, it's called the business space and it's, for architectural business owners to come together once a month. We have a topic each month and [00:40:00] then there's a WhatsApp group as well,

Stephen Drew: really?

Clare Nash: where we just, help each other on the business side, and just try and get better at it, and support each other.

Clare Nash: 'cause you are on your, it's like you said earlier, you're on your own. Even if you've got a team like I have, I still have separate business mentors and business groups and things that help me with that. 'cause you need people to talk to about it. But. And it's nice that we're all, architect in the architecture world because we have similar problems.

Clare Nash: Not to say that other businesses don't have the same problems, but, it's quite helpful where you don't have to explain how, the problems with planning delays or something. Everybody just knows this, so we just talk about the business related to that kind of thing. But I'm very strict.

Clare Nash: I don't let everybody go into moaning about planners. We stick to business. 'cause that's the whole point is making space to work on your business.

Stephen Drew: That's very cool. And was there a temptation at the start? Do you find some people are wary? I found that. Because if there's competing other businesses con similar to the [00:41:00] social, at first they'd be like, do you really wanna speak to a competitor? But then actually very rarely you even bump into each other on this stuff.

Stephen Drew: But the information is more valuable than being all secretive or worried. Did you find that sometimes Claire people are a bit wary and then they calm down?

Clare Nash: Yeah, there was, there was a bit of apprehension about that before people joined the group. As it happens, everybody's so spread out nationally that it is not an issue from that perspective. But I also, I mentor people who are technically my competitors and it doesn't bother me at all because I just think, we are different personalities.

Clare Nash: We are offering slightly different things, albeit, yeah, we both do bank conversions or something in a similar area, but it, people choose people and their ideal client isn't necessarily my ideal client. So I just don't worry about it. I just think we're, what we're doing is make, is helping each other to get better at business, which is best, [00:42:00] better for the industry as a whole.

Clare Nash: Anyway. If we all get better, then it's better for everyone.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more, and I am guilty of at the start as well, I used to get weary about even adding my competitors on LinkedIn. It's a very recruitment thing to go oh, can't get them in. They're gonna look at what we do. And now it's the opposite. I'm like, yeah, come on in. Who cares?

Stephen Drew: Let's have a chat about it. And, I find it actually better. So it's great that you're doing that with the groups now.

Writing and Publishing Books
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Stephen Drew: The bit that I joked about at the start, you have written two books in my head with my brain. That's crazy. I'm like, oh my gosh, how do you even do it? So maybe I'll bring 'em up on the screen.

Stephen Drew: So if I look like I'm doing things in the background, I'll get them up now, but maybe you can tell us about the two books while I faff around Claire, if that's cool.

Clare Nash: The first one I wrote 'cause I was just so fed up of, the red brick box on the edge of every single town and city. And I just thought the Brits are known for [00:43:00] really cool fashion and music and like all their regional accents are good as well. Whereas the housing was just the same boring box everywhere.

Clare Nash: It is just so depressing that here we are with this creative talent in this country and that's what we get. So this is supposed to be the antidote to that.

Stephen Drew: Right.

Clare Nash: and it's based on my dissertation that I did. But I just thought it's a shame if only Master's students read it and, 'cause there's, it's useful for lots of people. Who wouldn't necessarily be in Oxford Brooks Library. I just approached, Reba Publishing and then I was really surprised when they said yes and can you add some more case studies, bringing it more UK centric and so on. So I, then I had to do it, and it was so fun. I just loved it.

Clare Nash: Going to all those different housing schemes ask, I literally went door to door asking them how they like their home, the people that lived in it so that I got real user feedback rather than [00:44:00] just, the architects or the housing associations or whatever saying, yay, it's great. So it really reinforced it.

Clare Nash: So it was good from one perspective in that there was loads of research that I then put into my own work and gave me lots of confidence that it definitely worked in practice and, also it just raised my profile. So clients. It gave me extra kudos. Yeah, it definitely led to me being able to charge higher fees.

Stephen Drew: Wow. Really? Wow. It may, no, I agree. 'cause you're an offer, aren't you? As respected and that carries a lot of weight and it was a lot of work. But that's so yeah. Your fees went up. That's great. And you deserve it. Brilliant.

Clare Nash: Yeah. I'd say it was a combination of me feeling like I had more to offer

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Clare Nash: as well as clients seeing that because, yeah, that extra kudos. And I think it also helped it being republishing because that's like an [00:45:00] extra,~ um, ~boost to the brand I suppose.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask, what is the process of even writing a book like Claire? How do you start, get it going in the middle of the end? What's the process like of writing a book?

Clare Nash: I tend, so first I have an idea and then I decide if it's got enough, if I'm passionate enough about it, could I stand? 'cause the editing process is boring and tough and lengthy and you've gotta be able to get through that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Clare Nash: The first part is fun 'cause it's all research and then you're like writing excitedly about all the things.

Clare Nash: Yeah. So that, yeah. It's like you have an idea, you write proposal, you send it to the publishers, they say yes or yes, but with these tweaks or just no. And then, and then you refine it.

Clare Nash: And you get a lot more, if you go to a conventional publisher, you get a lot more help with all that setup and everything [00:46:00] and, content and how to organize it and all that sort of stuff.

Clare Nash: And then they have professional editors that help you as well. There are three sets of editors on that first book 'cause they all have different specialisms.

Stephen Drew: Wow.

Clare Nash: But if you self-publish, you make more money and you can do more with it and you have more rights. But I wanted that key off of having a proper publisher behind it.

Clare Nash: Plus I learned such a lot.

Stephen Drew: yeah, I can see that as well. Very cool. So this tends to be more on, on an architecture theme for Ular design, yet your second book. Is more introspective on the profession. Is that correct then cla

Clare Nash: Yeah. Yeah. I just, that one was like, I couldn't, it was a combination of things I just had, I couldn't find anything on running a business with a baby. 'cause I really didn't have any maternity leave. It was like three weeks because I couldn't, and, was [00:47:00] nothing about that. There was nothing about all the problems I had when I was setting up, like cashflow issues.

Clare Nash: What fees to charge, what systems to create, how to market from a small practice perspective. And as good as the, the Reba business books are, they're quite dry. And I wanted to add a more human aspect to it. Like the emotional side,

Stephen Drew: yeah.

Clare Nash: And also to demonstrate that it is possible, you can have a really nice practice doing work.

Clare Nash: You really like working fewer hours. Like I work 30 hour weeks and I'm, I make decent money on that. And whereas the common theme. Is way more depressing than that. It's like you have to work 80 hour weeks and you don't get much money for it, so why bother? It has to be a vocation. You're a starving artist kind of thing.

Clare Nash: And I just reject that.

Stephen Drew: Good for you. I, I'm impressed. Just a side thing I could just about me. I tend to listen to more audio [00:48:00] books. Have you got one or you plan to do one then Claire?

Clare Nash: No, I think both of them are available as an ebook, but yeah, I also listen to audio books. I don't know. Nobody suggested it. Maybe

Stephen Drew: right down the light. No, it's just an idea because I would like, I would love to listen to this on my commute, but actually I don't want to add more work to your workload. So just an idea for Dan that you go, oh, do you know what? We could do that, because I think it, it would be really nice.

Stephen Drew: And you're right, I've never ever found a book like this on the business of architecture. There's one I think that's written by Gensler, but that is, or the art of Gensler. And, but that's a huge piece. It's a different thing and that's great. So we're not having to go, but this is a different book.

Stephen Drew: And I also think as well. Running the practice in the UK has a whole different set of obstacles, problems, challenges, adventures, highs and lows. It's just anywhere else in the world because we have our own planning system and everything. [00:49:00] So it's so cool that you have that, here. And so people can buy the books where On the reber,

Clare Nash: Yeah. Or any, online book, shop will have it. Yeah, all the major ones.

Stephen Drew: I'm gonna, I've got one or two more questions before we wind down and I let you go back. 'cause I know I'm, now, I'm pushing it. I'm getting the most outta my hour, but it just interests me.

The Role of AI in Architecture
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Stephen Drew: Now everyone talks about artificial intelligence. I use it quite a bit in my business on more, at the moment, on data entry I use, don't use it for anything such as design outputs or on the website or anything yet.

Stephen Drew: I could see how that might go into it, but also, we were just talking about writing a book, and I do use it as a bouncing board for a lot of things, especially social media and marketing. Not fully comfortable yet, letting it all go out, but I found it quite useful. What's your thoughts on this [00:50:00] emergent technology when it comes to the business, but also do you think it could have aided or helped you write in the book, or do you share the worries that it might even start replacing stuff like writing a book?

Clare Nash: I'm not worried about it replacing it.

Stephen Drew: No,

Stephen Drew: That's good.

Clare Nash: yeah. But it's, it's definitely a useful tool. I've used it just recently for,~ um, ~like repurposing content. So I can give it a post that I've written and say, write a blog based on this post in my style. And then I'll obviously edit it. But it's great 'cause I haven't, it, it shaves a good hour off the work for sure.

Stephen Drew: yeah. And

Clare Nash: really helpful.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And if you, magic wand world, if we were to go back and you were writing these books again, do you think he would've saved more time, Claire, in the process?

Clare Nash: Yeah, possibly. I quite enjoy writing and I feel like stuff just comes up while I'm doing it. There's like more stuff that [00:51:00] comes up and things I would put in that AI doesn't know me well enough yet to be able to do that. 'cause it's quite spontaneous and sometimes even I'm like, where did that come from?

Clare Nash: But I can't tell AI to know something that I don't myself already know, that I'm gonna spit out. Yeah. But it's a really useful tool and I really look forward to it making some of the boring architecture tasks go away. Like it did not it, but technology made door schedules a thing of the past, which was a massive relief for me.

Clare Nash: I can't stand data entry. It's incredibly boring. I had a job once where that was my job for two weeks and they asked me to stay on and I couldn't stand it. I needed the money, but I just could not stand it. And then the second doing that, utterly mindless, horrible, boring work. And I'm sure other people with different brains to mind, it's fine, but for me it's horrendous.

Clare Nash: So anything that it gets that will take away that kind of stuff. [00:52:00] And I did used to say years ago when I was doing door schedules, I was like, computers could do this better than me. And it can, it totally can. And it doesn't make errors like I did it.

Stephen Drew: I did the same. I remember late night getting the GIA and NIA on a deadline wrong. It's just 'cause I'm tired. Who cares? I agree with you. So what a refreshing take to hear. The last question I had for me, I'm at the time of recording this. We're mid-March 2025. What's your sentimentality towards the future of architecture in the short term, medium, the long term?

Stephen Drew: Do you feel positive at the moment, Clem,

Clare Nash: Yeah, I do. I feel really positive. I think, yeah, and like my son is seven and he'll be going into a completely different world of work, but I feel like the things I already know about being creative and innovative, thinking at you, approaching things differently, not just accepting traditional ways of doing stuff, being like, does [00:53:00] this actually serve me or my clients, or whatever, and questioning things.

Clare Nash: Those are all useful skills. And then empathy, all the stuff that AI can't do, you learn in architecture school. Albeit door schedules will be a thing of the past, but great. But, or yeah, all the sort of top level skills, we'll still need those. So we are in a great position for that. Hey, I'm not worried about it at all.

Stephen Drew: Now. Me too. I think it will be an enabler to do more stuff. I really do. I, and I just cannot, for the life of me just see it replacing the architecture industry whatsoever. Mean maybe the part one, of me, years ago. You still need a part one. But I remember spending two weeks, Claire, on a visualization and getting it perfect and the director saying, fine.

Stephen Drew: And now it's boom, change the sky. Done. So I think that task of me would've been changed, but you always need someone to do, bits and bobs [00:54:00] and client facing things. You in the garden center, bringing in the project just cannot be replaced, in my opinion.

Clare Nash: Yeah. Same. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I think. What a nice note to end the podcast on.

Conclusion and Contact Information
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Stephen Drew: I've really enjoyed this. First of all, thank you for being so honest about what it's like to run a business and sharing some of the secret sources of pushing through it. I love running a business. I always joke that you have to be crazy to run a business 'cause it's hard. And you are responsible for people.

Stephen Drew: But that's okay. We can do it the right way. But hopefully this inspires a few people. If Claire, that they've enjoyed this and maybe they wanna reach out to you even for a project, but maybe even if they want to be part of the mentoring group or just wanna say hello, how do they find you online?

Clare Nash: I'd connect with me on LinkedIn and just DM me. Yeah, that was probably the easiest bit or go on the website. [00:55:00] There's, an email on there that will come through to me eventually.

Stephen Drew: Oh, brilliant. I'll bring up the website one last time. And so for anyone that's enjoyed this, or maybe if you're listening, if you're watching, you saw the website earlier, but if you're listening, it is www dot claire C-L-A-R-E, Nash. architecture.co. The uk. Fabulous. Thank you so much for being on the show, Claire, and to Claire's friends who I bumped into at a smashing pumpkin gig, you're bolded into my life.

Stephen Drew: And you mentioned your super cool architecture friend, and now we've got the podcast. So I will see you at the next Smashing Pumpkins gig. What's his name again? Claire. Remind me. He's Andy. That's right. Andy, in my head you are forever. Billy Corgan or Smashing Pumpkins, that is who you are. Thank you so much again, Claire.

Stephen Drew: And to you and the audience, thank you for being here. I hope you thought this was useful. Do get in contact with Claire [00:56:00] and more content coming soon. I've started recording things again. Thank you so much. I'm gonna end the livestream here. Everyone have a lovely day. Take care everyone. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.