Tara Cull - Helping architects who speak English as a second language to build confidence

0046 - Tara Cull - Helping architects who speak English as a second language to build confidence
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Introduction and Guest Welcome
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Stephen Drew: Everyone, I am Stephen Drew from the Architecture Social, and I'm joined here today on this podcast with a very special guest, who I think is doing something really fantastic that is beneficial to individuals in the industry and employers as well. Tara Kahl who has set up a fantastic company called Archie English.

Stephen Drew: Tara, hello, how are you?

Tara Cull: Hi, Stephen. I'm very well today. Thank you. Thank you for having me on the podcast. I'm very excited to be here with you today.

Discovering Archie English
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Stephen Drew: This is it, and so we actually cross paths through the wonderful world of Instagram and it and I'm a bit of a new, a newbie in the Instagram world, and I quite enjoy it.

Stephen Drew: And at first I thought it was purely about. Maybe showcasing architectural photography and so forth, but there's a lot more than that. [00:01:00] And actually, that's where I become aware of Archie English and the content that you do. And partly for that was with Sarah Lebner and her fantastic Instagram. Course course, she's got a course, she's got her own channel as well.

Stephen Drew: But more importantly, for anyone that's not familiar with Archie English, we've established that's on Instagram. However, do you want to let everyone know what Archie English is about?

Tara Cull: Yeah. So Archie English is something that I established. I'm an English teacher and I'm also a landscape architect and I wanted to bring these two passions together, these two things that I really love and to develop something that I thought would be really useful for people.

Tara Cull: So I developed this business called Archie English and it's about really taking English lessons for professionals who speak English as a second language and giving them more powerful language and also empowering them with more confidence. That's essentially what [00:02:00] it is, it's about educating more people about how they can use English in a more powerful way, and also, I think, showing them things that might be hidden to them, because they've done, they may have done general English lessons before, and not really gone so deep into the language before

Stephen Drew: It's definitely interesting.

Stephen Drew: I think that having been in industry myself and we touched upon it a little bit before I'm doing this podcast, I've seen it on the two sides where I've worked. While I was in practice with some fantastic architects and architectural assistants, and if English is the second language you write, it's very hard to, first of all, get all those little industry terms, pick up all the little nuggets of information, which get thrown around an architectural office.

Stephen Drew: But I can imagine. If English is your second language and you're going into an office, you have decent English, but you haven't got these terms, it can [00:03:00] be really difficult. And I've seen that in some people's faces, when you get the blank expression, you've got someone who's incredibly smart and they miss stuff.

Stephen Drew: But what I love about this I guess where you could say what you're doing the course and everything and what you offer is building up that confident is extremely important because actually when we're talking about these individuals, they're also some of the best architects that I've ever met talented people, which offers so much value and.

The Inspiration Behind Archie English
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Stephen Drew: It sounds like to me a nice way to get over that hurdle and to get a bit more confident in the office, but what inspired you to actually set this up? Was it when you were in as a landscape architect that you saw this, was there that epiphany moment when you were like, wow, you're amazing and I would like to help you overcome this problem?

Stephen Drew: Was there something like that?

Tara Cull: I've been working as a landscape architect for 14 years and. It wasn't until two years ago that when I moved to France and I couldn't really work as [00:04:00] a landscape architect here because I didn't speak French.

Speaker: Ah, okay, cool.

Tara Cull: That started me thinking about, okay what can I do instead that could be useful for other people?

Tara Cull: But then it really made me think about a long time ago when I first was working as a graduate. And I think I was about four years into my, my, into my career. And I worked with somebody who had just graduated from uni, had come from China and was finding it really difficult to understand subtleties about the language.

Tara Cull: And so I felt as though there could be something there. There's some, there's a way that I could help her. And I started. Sitting with her, mentoring her about certain ways that she could write emails about expressions that we had, things like that. And actually the other day, one of my ex colleagues sent me this email that I had sent in 2012, which was giving people [00:05:00] a lesson on what's the difference between affect the verb and affect the noun.

Tara Cull: So I realized that it was something that I was passionate about very early on, but I never really took it on board. And it wasn't until I was in France and I was in the situation where I had noticed these people that I was working with were in also that I thought, okay, this, there's a way I can help people in this situation.

Tara Cull: So that's where the inspiration came from.

Stephen Drew: Makes complete sense. And I imagine when you were there in that position, all the knowledge and I can imagine it's almost like the ability, you haven't got the ability to speak as in, so you're a landscape designer, the solution for the, to the problem and then communicating that.

Stephen Drew: Cause it's not, and then the point is, it's not just an English lesson, isn't it? We're talking about industry terms, it's very specific and fast paced information that you need to get across in the project, in the design team meeting or within your own team. And I can imagine [00:06:00] that it must be really frustrating.

Stephen Drew: So it. I can totally see the need for it.

Challenges Faced by Non-Native English Speakers
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Stephen Drew: The other thing that I, we touched upon briefly, and I think it's important to mention is the value of this almost to I imagine an architectural practice, because I've also seen the other flip side of the coin where an architectural practice really values an individual, but English is the second last second language and they haven't learned all the terms yet.

Stephen Drew: And it almost sometimes can be. The bit that stops them getting to that next level, or in some cases, even stops getting them promoted or anything, because they can't almost project job run yet because the trust, maybe it's not so much the trust isn't there, but it's more because they don't have that ability to communicate that information quickly at those terms in English that they do not get promoted.

Stephen Drew: Is, do you, have you seen employers get involved in the course? Or do you, have you seen interest from it from that end as well?

Tara Cull: Yeah, absolutely. So I would say there's [00:07:00] two things, a lot of the students that I work with, a lot of the professionals I work with, often come to me and say, I know what I need to say, I know what needs to happen, but I just don't know how to do it.

Tara Cull: I don't know how to input into a meeting. I'm afraid of inputting into a meeting. And then so they therefore don't necessarily put their hand up To to take on more responsibility

Speaker: and

Tara Cull: then also they may feel as though, they're not good enough. And sometimes I think particularly in architecture and landscape architecture, you'll know we use a lot of jargon and we tend to overuse these things and they, and people who speak English as a second language often feel like they have to speak the same language in order to feel like they can add value to a project.

Tara Cull: And so very often when I work with people, it's about communicating and making them feel as though they still add [00:08:00] value to the project. And then on the other hand, I often get senior architects or senior landscape architects suggesting that people come and work with me because it can be more about them overcoming the mindset.

Tara Cull: Aspect of it. Not so much the English. So I often work with people who have very advanced level of English, but think that they don't have a good level of English because it takes them a little bit longer to think of how to express something and they feel like they need to perform. So in a way it could really, working with me and working with an architecture practice, it can really help both parties.

Tara Cull: It can help make the process more efficient. and effective rather than both people worrying about the other.

Stephen Drew: It's interesting because it's almost, and what I take from that as well, because there's an element of you, [00:09:00] you're teaching the terms, the skills there, but the big part of it, from what you're saying, it sounds like confidence is key or just getting on board and realizing that they can do it.

Stephen Drew: And get in that bit so that someone can continue to progress and grow. But that makes a lot of sense. I'm quite curious as well. So you had the idea there. There's definitely a need for it, which is why when I saw her on the Instagram Archie Ingrid, it was one of the moments of I've never seen this done before, but I can totally.

Stephen Drew: See the need for it. And I was like, quietly curious, admiring you from a distance for a little while on the Instagram, but when, so we're gonna, we're gonna wind back to when you were setting it up. And so you're like there's a need for this. But how do you even go about tackling this mammoth? Do you almost start listing down industry terms or how you, cause you almost need to set up a curriculum and setting up a course for someone to, to do is quite difficult, right?

Stephen Drew: I imagine that maybe there was a few iterations or how did you go about that whole [00:10:00] process?

Developing a Tailored Curriculum
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Tara Cull: Yeah, it's interesting question too, because you're talking about it in terms of a course or a curriculum and for me it is that, but it's also about listening to people.

Tara Cull: I tend to not develop a curriculum too much for working with one to one students until I speak to them and I understand what it is exactly that they need because each person will be different in terms of what they need.

Tara Cull: So I'm working with somebody at the moment who is a senior architect and has to do a lot of writing and a lot of minutes for meetings, emails. Things like that, and one of the things that they're worried about is they don't want to keep on delegating this task to people within their team, they want to take more responsibility and do it themselves.

Tara Cull: I developed that curriculum based on what they need. If I'm working, so I also work in a university at the moment in Thailand, so I work online. Wow. The curriculum's a bit [00:11:00] different in that it's working with Thai students who working in English and they are going to be architects. So they have Thai professors and also English professors.

Tara Cull: So with that, it's more of a set curriculum. They're learning presentation skills, they're learning English for architecture. So they're learning all the terms of things. Whereas with the one to one clients and the groups that I'm working with, it's more about developing their ability to articulate an idea because that's a skill.

Tara Cull: If you're with a client, for example, and you're having to explain your design, that's a skill that you need to have. And if you don't have the right vocabulary, plus you don't have the confidence. That makes it really hard. We look at things like, it's not just about vocabulary. It's not just about making sure they know the terms.

Tara Cull: It's also about making sure they practice using the [00:12:00] terms. And they put themselves in situations where they can get feedback because I'm not, I'm certain that you've probably seen this before when somebody speaks English as a second language and they have to speak and then perhaps in a client meeting and maybe they make some mistakes or they're struggling, it's not really the time to give them feedback.

Stephen Drew: You can't, yeah. You just can't do that. Yeah, it's because things are going ahead, isn't it? And so it almost hinders the process, unfortunately. Exactly. And

Tara Cull: I imagine that

Stephen Drew: feels quite alienating for the person, doesn't it?

Tara Cull: And it's difficult. A lot of the people I work with they come to me with very similar problems.

Tara Cull: So when I was starting out Archie English, of course I had in my mind what were some of the ideas of vocabulary that I needed to talk about. Really, what I post on Instagram comes from the conversations that I have with all my, with my students, with my clients. If they ask me about, for example, why do we use this particular language when we're [00:13:00] doing documentation, then I will prepare something that helps them to understand that, and then explains that.

Tara Cull: So the other day I was doing a lesson on the imperative mood, which most native speakers wouldn't even know either. But it's a question that often comes up and it's when you have a verb at the start of the sentence, for example, repair the existing roof. And these sorts of things, even when I was working as a landscape architect, I wouldn't even have thought twice about.

Tara Cull: I would have just. But these are questions that are asked to me all the time. Why do they do it like this? I don't know why what, how can I improve the way that I speak? How can I improve the way that I write when I'm doing documentation? Also things like how do you be diplomatic when you're writing an email?

Tara Cull: How do you not be direct? Because a lot of. People when they're learning English, they learn from a textbook or they, they might learn conversational and then not really know how to be diplomatic to a [00:14:00] client.

Stephen Drew: Yeah I think, you know what, you stumbled upon a very interesting point and they even transcends into what I do for a living because a lot of what I do is.

Stephen Drew: Especially in terms of my day job, when I'm not doing the architectural social recruitment is all about communication and the phone is a big factor and having the confidence to be on the phone is difficult for most people, let alone someone with a second language, in recruitment, it's, that's almost, it can make it so challenging to enter because you're right there's on the phone, you've almost got the nuances, the tone, the emotion.

Stephen Drew: But talking about what you were saying there, especially with written English, writing an email, this is such a lot to it, isn't it? Because we all do it. And we do it all a million miles an hour. Cause even when WhatsApp and I'm the same way, if you're writing capital letters, I'm like someone's shouting at me if they, full stops or too much exclamation marks, you read all this in terms of tone.

Stephen Drew: And I actually remember an architect many years [00:15:00] ago Who was excellent but you're right because english was the second language he really struggled with emails and it was probably his weakest link in terms of professional development but the practice of my name so much because he was an excellent architect and what's bizarre is i remember thinking.

Stephen Drew: I was really good at writing the emails, but I was less interested in the architecture. But it's absolutely fascinating. The other bit that was interesting when you were talking there is because I can appreciate I've started talking about the. The aspect of what you do in terms of a course, but you're right, there's so much coaching involved.

Stephen Drew: And what I, what is interesting is it's almost never to learn too late and you, and the fact that you're coaching a senior architect to a a student, it's very different, but equally valuable to that individual. And I think it's one of these things of what I like about this is that. Everyone in life gets hang ups, I've had hang ups, everyone gets these comfort, these chinks in the armors that [00:16:00] we've got, which kind of almost feel like they hold you back, and what I like about Archie English is for anyone that kind of feels like the language barrier is holding them back, it's never too late, and they should just jump on, do you know what I mean?

Stephen Drew: Because the point is, You can get over that quite quickly, and then probably, oh, you've got a much more statistic chance of your career progressing, because your confidence gets better. How long do you typically work with people on a one to one basis? Does it completely vary on where they are and how much English they know and what point they are in their career and maybe how much responsibility they have?

Stephen Drew: Is it, does it vary a lot?

Tara Cull: Yeah, it varies. It's very different. I at the start was offering just ad hoc lessons with people and I felt like I wanted to make it more focused. So now what I do is I offer a 12 week program and that helps for me to keep it focused. We [00:17:00] also look at things at the very beginning, we look at strengths.

Tara Cull: So very often. I'll look at we'll look together at what their strengths are, and it might be software, it might be visualization, it might be a really good designer, but they feel like their weaknesses are more communication with the client. So we'll look at things that they're really good at.

Tara Cull: That they know that they can talk about and we'll develop those as a means to help them develop and deal with their weaknesses. So if visualization is their number one skill, we'll think about how can they share those skills of visualization with their colleagues, for example, and then little by little build the confidence.

Tara Cull: So typically people will work with me for 12 weeks. Sometimes they'll continue with me maybe for another few weeks, or maybe they'll do an ad hoc type coaching thing where they come back to me with a question or I've got this email. Could you have a look at this email for me? Or I've got this presentation that I need [00:18:00] to do.

Tara Cull: Can you help me with this presentation? So it really depends as well, like where they are in their career what they're needing to do, what they want to talk about.

The Importance of Confidence and Cultural Differences
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Tara Cull: Yeah, it will vary from person to person, but yeah, as you were saying it's really about the confidence that I find out of everything.

Tara Cull: It's more about the confidence. And also the thing is too, that all of my students, they come from a country that's different to the country that they're now living in or they're working in, say, for example, in Europe and English is the lingua franca or the common language. And within that, it's not just looking at architecture, it's not just looking at architecture vocabulary Or expressions, it's also looking at cultural differences.

Tara Cull: For example, the ways that people say things in England might be different to the way things, or people say things in Australia or America, for example.

Stephen Drew: Got him. Yeah.

Tara Cull: And also, one really good example for me with cultural [00:19:00] differences is at the start of my courses with my Thai students, I have to explain to them, it's okay to have an opinion.

Tara Cull: It's okay to disagree with me. It's okay to say what you think. Because in Thailand, there tends to be a much greater distance between the boss and the person that works for the boss. So it's also about changing that mentality and trying to explain to them What the expectations might be in the country that they're living in compared to where they're coming.

Stephen Drew: It's interesting. The more and more we talk about it, it's, it was, cause I guess that half of it is about articulating language, but you're right. So the more and more we talk about it, the more and more, the confidence is a huge part of this, isn't it? And getting people to overcome it so that they can have that conversation.

Stephen Drew: What the other thing was interesting when you were talking there, and I've experienced a little bit on the architectural social is. That the kind of the mediums and teaching people and and one thing that I do admire when you're talking about these one to one [00:20:00] relationships and how bespoke they are that's incredibly time consuming and good on you for doing it.

Stephen Drew: What I found in terms of. Because part of the reason the architectural social was set up was because I felt like there wasn't one place focused for architects to communicate, which was open. So it's a little bit different than than as far as, the Arctic's project, which is great, but that's to me is much more focused, more workshop.

Stephen Drew: She's accountable for everyone there and this is a different platform, but I've done a few courses and I was trying to do when I first set up the architectural social, I was doing things on a, I would speak to students and I would do CV important portfolio reviews on the one to one basis. And while really rewarding and.

Stephen Drew: I did enjoy it, you would speak to someone and it was immensely valuable for them, but I, and all this I was doing during my time on furlough and like now I'm working full time again and I remember thinking. I'm not going to have time to do these one to ones, [00:21:00] and then the other thing that I noticed is that, especially when helping graduates, there was elements of information that I was repeating to one person and another, so it was incredibly inefficient use of my time, and that's why what I've tried to do now is spend a lot of energy on them.

Stephen Drew: Almost recording a video, put it now on YouTube, but also within the architectural social on certain bits so that people can digest it and go for it at their own pace. So what I really admire is here is it's almost like the 2 vehicles, isn't it? You'll go 1 to 1 on a person with specific staff, but then there's also the kind of curriculum that you're building up, which covers a lot of the bases, which can help people.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, sorry, I've just thought that it's more talking about my struggles with teaching everyone because it is quite an uphill task, isn't it?

Tara Cull: Yeah, teaching is a big struggle. You take on a lot of your students challenges and

Speaker: [00:22:00] you

Tara Cull: want to help them and you're trying to make it bespoke.

Tara Cull: As much as possible, I try to. Use similar materials. So I'm not doing the same thing over and over, but

Speaker: yeah,

Tara Cull: at the same time, to give somebody value when you're doing a coaching session, I think it's also more about listening. And as you're talking about delivering information to somebody, which is good, and that's very often, the teacher sort of relationship, but I think one thing that I've been trying to change a lot more is to.

Tara Cull: To be more of a coaching style relationship with the students, because often the biggest thing for them is. Not being able to speak up in a meeting or lacking the confidence and they need to practice that so you can't Passively take that information in when you're watching a YouTube video.

Tara Cull: For example, it's about giving them the space and the time to talk express themselves give their opinions and [00:23:00] Build that confidence to be able to then take that into a real meeting or into a real presentation for example

Balancing One-to-One Coaching and Social Media
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Stephen Drew: Hats off to you on that, because there's what I've learned over the, I remember, especially when I began in architectural recruitment, I joined and a lot of it was going to the meetings with architectural practices to listen to what their requirements are.

Stephen Drew: And I remember, especially when feeling new or slightly more insecure. I wouldn't properly listen, when you like you're almost listening, but you're waiting to say the next thing on your mind and then you're not fully engaged, but you are. And you're not. I even now, sometimes I'll slip into that.

Stephen Drew: But what you're talking about of. Listening to someone and actually trying to stay in the moment, like diagnostic listening, or I'm not quite sure what the exact term, but it's very difficult. But what I admire about that from your point of view is that's what a true coach should be, or a true mentor is someone that listens [00:24:00] as well.

Stephen Drew: And you are right when that aspect, because the courses I agree, there's a value on it. I'm also I find a lot as well that. You can record all the YouTube videos and all the lessons in the world, but there is such a value on a course where it's accountability from both people. And it was quite interesting because I went to a talk where it was set up by the Mighty Networks talk and they talked about building that community.

Stephen Drew: And one of the, and one of the things was challenging that kind of British notion, when everyone's almost embarrassed to ask for money, but what they talked about is. Money is if you think about money in terms of someone value in themselves or wanting to participate statistically people who invest in themselves, see someone that seeks you out for the coach, or goes to a course with self learning and puts a value that they exchange.

Stephen Drew: Your time and expertise for money and actually that's almost them saying that they were accountable and they want to learn and that's [00:25:00] what I think is the strength of your course or your coaching on one to one and that's why the current theory that i'm working on is that because if you think about it there's so much.

Stephen Drew: Content on YouTube. There's so much content on Instagram. You almost don't need to, in theory, do this stuff, but then you're missing the human aspect. And that's what I think you're talking about. And which is special is that. It's not just a lesson, it's that you're present there, you're listening to that person talking about their situation, where they are, you're listening, and then acting on it.

Stephen Drew: But how do you feel about all that and stuff online? Or would you agree with that? Or what's your thoughts?

Tara Cull: As you were talking, I was just thinking too, that you made some really good points about listening and listening is something over the last few years [00:26:00] I've really worked on a lot. And I think it's important to give people the space to listen to them and not, as you were saying, not be listening to what they're saying and thinking, what am I going to say next?

Tara Cull: And that is a big challenge for people who speak English as a second language because they're sitting there thinking, okay, I've got to be intelligent. I've got to say something smart. And so I think in order to do the best possible job I can for them, I have to model what I want them to do or what I'm trying to encourage them to do.

Tara Cull: And that is to be calm and to be in a state of being able to feel as though they can take on the challenge of speaking. And that is, modeling that listening and listening to what they have to say. And even though it's online, you can still capture that same, obviously it's not exactly the same, but you can still capture that.

Tara Cull: The skills of [00:27:00] listening and making sure that you're there for them. And that is really something that is really important to me to do. And it's exactly what you're saying about Instagram. On some days I think I really can't stand Instagram and I can't stand YouTube and I can't stand this whole, like everything has to be there, but I also to myself work with a coach and that's been really important for me.

Tara Cull: To talk about, what are the things that I value and what is important and, she's been helping me to think about, what's important for the people that I work with, but what's important for me as well. And, some days I think I should be making videos for YouTube, I should be doing this for Instagram, but then if I did that, if I kept on doing that, how can I offer the same value and the same service to the students that I work with one to one, because I wouldn't have the time and the

Stephen Drew: You can't.

Stephen Drew: The kind of the rule that I have is that, you know what, when [00:28:00] I do social media, it's because I want to. And in theory, I know, even like with this podcast it should go out every week at the same day, because that's going to be the smarter thing. For students, so everyone to listen to and everyone sets up a routine, but you know what, I'm just trying to do it as I go along.

Stephen Drew: You just

Tara Cull: gotta do your

Stephen Drew: best. Even yesterday, you're kind for anyone who contacts and I'm open to it. You were so sweet and actually doing this podcast today. Cause I missed out yesterday because like I go co op in my, in, in the madness of Mondays and I feel like that life happens.

Stephen Drew: What I like is what you're talking about. It is the students first and it's even with the architecture. So I try to do things for the community first. Um, the, I'm the other bit that's really interesting. I'd love to get your thoughts on it as well. I've seen two different things and especially in recruitment compared to architecture and architecture.

Stephen Drew: I do think that most architects do help each other out and do exchange information. [00:29:00] There, there is always an element in any industry, certain, I think maybe when someone feels a little bit insecure about their skills or ability, they're less likely to share something with someone else, right? I think it's less in architecture, but especially in recruitment, right?

Stephen Drew: You wouldn't believe what it's like sometimes. No, this is my piece of information or this is my list. I'm not sharing it. I'm not sharing anything.

The Value of Sharing Information
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Stephen Drew: And maybe my pearls of wisdom as I go along is that everyone should share information. And what's interesting about the YouTube is that everything that.

Stephen Drew: I would do on a one to one mentoring. So say hypothetically in the future, it's the same content that I put on YouTube. It's exactly the same. There's no secret. I don't hide anything behind the paywall. I'm not one of them Wolf of Wall Street. Like them, have you ever been to one of them events where they like, okay, you come along for an hour and it's 10 quid and they go now that you've met me and I've given you a little.

Stephen Drew: Nugget, sign up for the 12, 000 course and you'll [00:30:00] learn all the secret. I think that they're obviously awful and it's a clever business model. nice,

Tara Cull: not a nice feeling, is it?

Stephen Drew: No. And I think what I've done with the social and everything is all my thoughts is they're all on YouTube. Everything's there.

Stephen Drew: But the difference is.

The Importance of Accountability in Mentoring
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Stephen Drew: I, that you miss for the one to one is that if I was sitting down to you in the one to one, you miss the fact that a, hopefully I'm a diagnostic listening. I'm listening to your case, but it's also the accountability and dialogue. And it reminds me a little bit like me with. At the moment, like last year, I put weight on in the coronavirus, right?

Stephen Drew: And I know exactly what to do, but it's accountability. And I think it really helps sometimes having friends that are being like, how are you getting on? Or, and I think when you haven't got that accountability, a bit, it's a bit like a personal trainer, right? If I've got a personal trainer, I don't really want to go on the Razz Friday night because.

Stephen Drew: You know what it's like when I got to go back to the gym next Wednesday, it's [00:31:00] it'll be like the shame. You'll be like, how are you doing? Did you do the assignments that I said? And I'm like, Oh, Tara, I haven't really done anything. And I think that's a really important part of the mentoring experience.

Stephen Drew: It's not just the content, but it's. That relationship and you, by being in that relationship, that professional relationship with someone, they feel a responsibility to themselves and to you to do it. And then when they do it, you big them up, don't you? You're like, well done. I'm super proud of you.

Tara Cull: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Stephen Drew: And they keep going, but do you get that buzz or do you feel like that accomplishment then?

Tara Cull: Yeah, absolutely. So I have. I often ask my students at the end of each session or maybe after every couple of sessions, Was that useful for you or how was that useful for you?

Tara Cull: So I find it's better to understand what it's doing for them And it really makes me feel like what we're what I'm doing with them is useful and they will say, you know I started speaking up in [00:32:00] a meeting or I asked a question in a meeting and I feel super proud and that for me Is just amazing and

Speaker: yeah

Tara Cull: I think one thing that I try to do as you were talking about, you share all of your thoughts and everything on YouTube and with the architecture social, I try to do that too.

Tara Cull: So after a lesson with somebody, I'll have my diary next to me and I'll think about what are some of the things that came out of that lesson that I could share with other people. So if there was a particular adjective that we talked about, or there was a particular expression, then I'll write it down.

Tara Cull: And I use that as a way to formulate something for Instagram or for LinkedIn or for something that I can share with other people, but it doesn't take it away from when I'm working one to one with somebody because they're having that time with me there, they're able to speak to me and I'm listening and giving them feedback and that sort of thing.

Tara Cull: So I think that, [00:33:00] yeah, it can all work together and help each other.

Balancing Professional and Personal Life
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Tara Cull: But at the same time, I think you have to also look after yourself as a professional. I have to sometimes walk away because there's so much I could do. I feel like I could spend all day writing Instagram posts and never be finished, or I could make a video and never be finished, but I need to have time for myself and in order to be better, in order to be able to listen, in order to not be tired and do all that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and I think that's really important because I've felt the two sides, it's been interesting because a bit like your archi English, the architecture social, I absolutely love it gives so much reward to me, but you're right, there's almost a point where I felt the same. It's never enough. And you've also sometimes, and I'm thinking more from Maybe I'm speaking directly on the kind of things that are in my brain at the moment, but especially on Instagram, you could almost sometimes be chasing these numbers or it sucks you [00:34:00] in.

Stephen Drew: And because when you've got your own business, in essence, it's more about, it comes from a good place of, I would love everyone. To be aware of the architecture social if and there's nothing that makes me feel better than someone having a good time. So like the best bit that's come this week is that there's one or two people on the social that were asking, does anyone want to play Dungeons and Dragons?

Stephen Drew: And. And to me, that's the most,

Tara Cull: yeah,

Stephen Drew: because it's like fun and we all need that. And it's real, it's like a real moment. And so I put a lot of value in them, but you're right. It's a catch 22 because the the important bit of your business is Aki English and you working on that.

Stephen Drew: And actually the satisfying feeling you, you get from someone getting further in their career. Getting more confident, but these online tools, I think that they're useful, but to go back to your analogy, I don't think it's a conversation we're talking. Now, the [00:35:00] point is when you are mentoring someone, there's a two way dialogue.

Stephen Drew: There's that conversation theory of, and they could say something different. And then the conversation goes down a different narrative or a bit like a doctor or an engineer or a mechanic. There's an element of, you've got a kind of. Sometimes you told exactly what the person is looking for, or maybe in some cases, they think that there's a hang up in one particular area.

Stephen Drew: And when you speak to them, you're like, no, you're actually good at that. I think you really don't think you're good at that. So there's that diagnostic element, but with Instagram and all this stuff. There's none of that, isn't it? Because it's a one way relationship. It's just like me and you with a big broadcasting thing going, Hey, look at the cool stuff we got going there.

Stephen Drew: And while it's good, I think the downside is that there's that false sense of, you're not able to do all the good you can do on social media and. That's the bit that I have there. [00:36:00] And I think that the downside is with all these different platforms is that it can become really fragmented.

Navigating Social Media and Online Presence
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Stephen Drew: So I guess with yourself, how have you found, especially with coronavirus and everything changing and people being online, how has that changed how people approach you and how has that changed how you go about.

Stephen Drew: using the social media channels or getting people aware of Aki English?

Tara Cull: That's a really good question. I think for me, I am somebody who likes to talk to people face to face. And so it was really hard. I guess for me last year to figure out how am I going to do this and get to people to know me.

Tara Cull: So I guess what I've done in a number of ways. So I've used Instagram as a way of posting things that I'm learning in my classes with my students and that I think would be useful for other people. And then occasionally people [00:37:00] might send me a message on Instagram as well. And or I might share people's things.

Tara Cull: I, that it's exactly how I got to know Sarah Lebner. So I saw what she was doing. I thought it was really good, but then I took, we took our relationship off Instagram. We spoke on Zoom. I'm now part of her architecture project. I love being part of that architecture project. I learned so good thing,

Stephen Drew: isn't it?

Stephen Drew: It's so good.

Tara Cull: Listening to different people speak about things and also seeing how people interact with the material as well has been really valuable for me as well. Just to know what people, what they're talking about and also good for me to see that not all architects know everything about architecture.

Tara Cull: Because that's what I worried about at the start because I'm not an architect. I've worked with architects a lot I am a landscape architect. I thought I had to know everything about everything, but it's not really the case. So that's how I [00:38:00] developed that. I've also used LinkedIn as well a lot.

Tara Cull: So posting on LinkedIn and trying to establish conversations with people off LinkedIn as well. So inviting them to come and have a conversation with me and yeah, by doing that And being active within these areas, it invites people to want to perhaps get to know you more, have a conversation.

Tara Cull: And I guess that's how you and I met as well, we're having a conversation. And for me, I think it's important to check back in that it's, it's a real sort of thing, there's a human element to it.

Adapting to Remote Work and Online Communication
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Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that's really fair and so pre lockdown, a lot of what I would do, especially in terms of my while.

Stephen Drew: So you're a landscape architect. I used to work in architecture, but for the last 7 years, I do a recruitment and part of it is so important to meet the client face to face and Meet people face to [00:39:00] face if you can as well, because then it's much better because when you go to a practice and then when you meet someone, you you have that Cupid moment of oh, I really think you would be really good for this company or have you, I know you've got your ideas on this, but actually maybe you should think about this company.

Stephen Drew: It's changed, it's completely changed. We've got interviews online. Networking online and you're right. And I think like the term networking, it sounds awful. And in my head, I've got that, you've got that, I've got that cringy image of people holding a business card, around but actually there is a nice thing about online and what I would advise anyone and even for us, I almost somewhat don't remember how.

Stephen Drew: We chatted, but I do remember why. It's because I liked what you did and I think that my tip for anyone online is not to overthink it the same way of maybe someone reaching out to you or the same way if someone's interested in the architectural social or the same way I speak to a few people. Is that I think most of the time, if you're human about things, [00:40:00] most people are receptive and we know where everyone is right now.

Stephen Drew: They're all at home on their computers because of the lockdown. So this is, it's the best time to make friends and stuff online.

Tara Cull: I've definitely, yeah, I've definitely used LinkedIn a lot actually over the last year. Yeah. I just thought everyone's doing it, why not? And I reached out to some people living in Australia, to some coaches, I had conversations with them.

Tara Cull: And as a result of doing that, I've been on a podcast or I've been on a few podcasts, had really great conversations with people and made really good connections. And you're right, like we've really had to adapt and people are becoming more used to being online as well. At the start of last year, I was still working as a landscape architect for a company in Australia.

Tara Cull: So prior to COVID happening, this was what we were doing already. So I was doing some freelance work and it's amazing how [00:41:00] much more comfortable people are now with that process. Whereas prior to that, it was a bit like, Oh, this is a bit difficult. I have to explain the design online and share my screen.

Tara Cull: And now it's just a natural part of how we communicate. And now we're having to adapt.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I'm, I was having this conversation with someone today, actually, because I think the idea in the UK of working remotely was most architectural practices response before would be like. Are you crazy? That will never work.

Stephen Drew: The idea. We need people in the office, and even in recruitment, right? To get a job where people can work at home was very rare. Very rare. Maybe one day a week. Maybe and that's a big maybe and I always tell people I'm like, Whoa, we're not getting there, but now I think it's completely changed.

Stephen Drew: I think that most people will be working. I think that what I predict and we'll see is that there'll be like a 6040 [00:42:00] split of people into the office and even the kind of offices of the future are. I'm going to be different. I predict that what you, instead of seeing our floor plan of 100 seats and desks, I reckon it would be 30 desks and four or five meeting rooms.

Stephen Drew: I think that would be the model of the future. And if that's the model of the future, then. Again, it language becomes so key because like right now, me and you were talking here on this podcasting tool there's you need to be comfortable online and that's a skill set in itself, but also a big, large part of that is being.

Stephen Drew: Confident in your language or confident in getting it right. But there's another confidence. I find that now I am more comfortable bizarrely if I mess things up because I've come to learn that it's more humanizing. And that's why even with this podcast, sometimes I'll record them, right? And Now the microphone's over here [00:43:00] and I work out where it should be.

Stephen Drew: But basically is there's so many important parts to getting it perfect. But with this podcast now I try to get it right. But the other day I recorded one and my sound was awful and you get it there or, and sometimes I think, Oh, I shouldn't have said this right or that. And now I just choke it down to it's me and you.

Stephen Drew: In the moment. And this conversation flows and that's my style doesn't work for everyone. The point I'm going with this though, is that I think you need to be authentic. And I think that really helps online. And what it would, the other advantage I've had because English is my first language, you become the master of, I don't want to use the word manipulating, but you can strategically use certain things because I've.

Stephen Drew: Commanded the English language for many years. I should make an awful joke because I'm actually Welsh and I don't speak Welsh. So I'm a terrible, I'm a terrible Welsh man, but, I do think that it's so important for people to feel [00:44:00] comfortable with speaking English because it can be such a big deal.

Stephen Drew: And. As well as talking, the other thing to feel comfortable with is silence or emotion. And I think that especially me many years ago as well, if there was a silence in the room, I'd be the guy to fill it up with nonsense, and actually there is a power in. Saying less sometimes.

Tara Cull: Absolutely. And you've made some really good points about online communication is really changing.

Challenges of Online Presentations and Meetings
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Tara Cull: And imagine for people who speak English as a second language and there's a whole new series of. Challenges that they have, people that I work with talk about how they are doing a presentation to a developer, for example, and everyone has their microphones turned off.

Tara Cull: So all they see is their video. And so prior [00:45:00] to presenting online, they're already having some challenges and now they're not picking up on the reactions of people. So it can be really challenging. And then also when you're in a meeting and. There's six or seven people and everyone's trying to talk at the same time, which I mean on zoom it, it mutes you Because it only allows one person to talk so that can be challenging too And if you want to say something, what do you do?

Tara Cull: You put your hand up or what do you do? So it, it's a whole set of other challenges that I now work with students to talk about this with professionals and yeah, also one of the things that I do when I'm teaching university because I'm all teaching online as well. I have to tell them to all put their cameras on because otherwise I feel like I'm just talking to my computer.

Stephen Drew: I was gonna say, because the bit that kind of, maybe there's a bit of synergy in our areas where, because in an interview, it's all about in the [00:46:00] moment and an interview is just as much as a first impression or getting to know each other and like in life, you, that a lot of times in life, that's your moment.

Stephen Drew: And now. It's not me and you're not doing this interview face to face. We're on we're on computers and even, I think orchestrating your environment to make how you speak and how you look and how you come across is so important. It's almost just as much as what you actually say, it's like the confidence piece you have, but it's even stuff like, Decent lighting.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I know this is not language per se, but I think a camera too high or a camera too low is a little bit disorientating. . And if the microphone is not clear, it's like this podcast that we're doing now, you would be amazed at how many people, and this is not their fault, it's just like one of these things that you would never think about, right?

Stephen Drew: Now you are wearing. Headphones and you've got a microphone. So immediately your vocals are much clearer. I'm going to be doing less [00:47:00] editing. So thank you. And it's much more easier for me to engage in the conversation, but I've had one or two guests where the audio has been so quiet or they haven't got a headphones and what happens is.

Stephen Drew: There's reverb in the room. I hear myself and it throws me off. And then what I find interesting is if I hear reverb on myself the bit of me being in the moment with you is much harder because I start focusing on myself. So I guess a big part of it now is. With the Archie English and everything, that's probably just as im Obviously, getting over the English and getting over the hang ups and improving and confidence is key, but I imagine you touch upon that subject as well, isn't it?

Stephen Drew: Of how to come across online and how to best present your voice.

Tara Cull: Absolutely, and I think I talk about this on a daily basis. Things like Some people will be really self conscious about what they look like on video as well. If they're thinking, if [00:48:00] firstly they're thinking, my English is not good, and then they're thinking about what they need to say next, then they're thinking about what they look like on video.

Tara Cull: This is really challenging. And especially if they're in a meeting with four or five other people who might speak quicker, speak with a different accent. That is a really tough situation to be in and so Sometimes it's for me. It's more just about listening to or how can I help you in this situation?

Tara Cull: There are certain things that you can't control. You can't you know, you can't change certain things so it's about trying to give them some examples of things that they can do, what can they focus on, how can they stop focusing on what they look like, how can they, it's a lot of things to really take in.

Speaker: Yeah,

Tara Cull: I try to tell them to, be kind to themselves and maybe focus on one or two things. In a meeting, but, it's very challenging and, [00:49:00] the only thing that they can do is practice,

Stephen Drew: this is it. And the other thing is while we were talking now, it was funny because you've seen, because we got the video here, I went like this with my headphones because something was in the background and distractions is another part, isn't it?

Stephen Drew: It's like the ability to freestyle and to keep going and to talk during our new worlds of. Maybe the Amazon man rings, it's like ding. And you're like, Oh no,

Tara Cull: they're having that ability in the background or what's happening.

Stephen Drew: Oh, I don't envy that. I'm blessed because one of the fantastic guy on my team was also named Steve has got two kids and.

Stephen Drew: They're lovely kids and yeah, I just feel for him. Sometimes he'll be in that meeting and it's an important call and the kids run in, don't they? Like daddy?

Speaker: Yeah. .

Stephen Drew: And you're just like, oh no. But I, with all this obstacles, I think comes like exciting territory.

Concluding Thoughts and Contact Information
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Stephen Drew: And I do think, and this is why I was really pleased that you are coming on this podcast because in this one in particular, I think's really important and, generally, I'm the tone of the podcast so far. It's like I like to [00:50:00] get people on a different points in their careers, whether they're a student or a director to talk about their journey. But I think in this particular case, while your journey is important, I just think that what you're doing is more relevant.

Stephen Drew: So I think what would be great is perhaps if we get one or two topics in future, or maybe what we'll do is we'll definitely put this on the architecture social a bit more prominent, because I imagine there's going to be quite a few people who will find value in this. And for anyone that's not familiar, again, with the work that you've done Tara, Kyle.

Stephen Drew: You're on LinkedIn, you have your website as well. You're on the architecture social. So what's the best ways to reach out and find out more and contact you?

Tara Cull: Yeah. So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So you can come and send me a message on LinkedIn or connect with me on LinkedIn. I like to have conversations with people on LinkedIn too.

Tara Cull: If they send me a message you can send me an email. My, from my website, you can come and say hello on Instagram. There's [00:51:00] a plethora of ways you can contact me, but I think probably the best way would be LinkedIn or my email.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. I will, when we put this podcast, I will put the links on the podcast as well for people, the link, but, so thank you Tara.

Stephen Drew: Thank you so much. I really appreciate this and hope we can pick up the conversation soon.

Tara Cull: Yeah, absolutely. I look forward to talking about lots of different things that we can talk about and helping people with their English and like into architecture.

Stephen Drew: You might have to teach me Welsh, I'm failing my heritage.

Stephen Drew: Oh, I don't know

Tara Cull: if I can speak Welsh, can you speak French? We'll do a swap.

Stephen Drew: No, I can't, but I do love Paris. I went there and it would be really helpful to know. I tell you what, Paris is an amazing city, but I do think it would help if French.

Speaker: Thank you so much,

Stephen Drew: Tara. I really appreciate it.

Stephen Drew: Thank you. Take care.