The Architecture Social discusses finding Jobs in Architecture on Thomas Rowntree's Podcast

0061 - The Architecture Social discusses finding Jobs in Architecture on Thomas Rowntree's Podcast
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Tom Rowntree: [00:00:00] Testing. Okay, what is going on ladies and gents, welcome back to a brand new video, a brand new episode of the number one student Podcast. Today we're here with Stephen Drew. Hello. Can you quickly introduce yourself?

Stephen Drew: Hi. Sure. So I'm Stephen Drew. I am Head of Architecture and Design at Macdonald Company and I am also involved in a new community platform called the Architecture Social.

So I used to be a Part 2 Architectural Assistant. I got my Part 1 at Westminster and Part 2 at Manchester and I worked for three years in the industry. I had an AJ100 practice called EPR Architects, really great company. And from there, I moved to recruitment. So for the last six years, what I do is I help everyone from part one, part two, right the way up to associate directors.

[00:01:00] Part one is typically you need to help yourself get in the industry, but part two is definitely almost that's what I specialize in.

Tom Rowntree: Awesome. So we've got a very exciting podcast. I think today we're going to dive into a lot of topics and kind of try and pick Stephen's brain about recruitment and applications and find positions in the kind of architecture field as obviously those guys during summer are looking for a position and obviously we're all a bit.

Uncertain on the current situation with the coronavirus, et cetera, and it's going to be a difficult time to find a job. So I've got a lot of questions here, which I'm just going to fire away at you and just, I just hope that we can discuss a little further. So the first one we've got is what are the key features in creating an application?

This is an architectural application. This is a big question, but we're trying to answer it.

Stephen Drew: We'll narrow it down. Okay. So good point. So we were in a bit of a difficult recession COVID scenario right now. So applications there's two types of forms. They could [00:02:00] be a job online, which could be a written job or a speculative.

You have to, there's probably not going to be many written jobs right now. So assume everything's speculative. So what you want to do is you want to start approaching companies and a very typical way to do it. And the easiest way to do it is. Yes, it's nice to hand deliver your CV and portfolio in a beautiful non Covid world where we don't have to run around in a mask and knock on the doors.

Everyone's working remote. I would say that the best thing to do right now in an application is to get your, an email, which is short and sweet, not too long, and you can put a cover letter. You don't want to repeat what's in the email. And That shouldn't be too long either. That should be a breeze to go through.

And you want a CV and a portfolio. And a CV, typically for me, is about two pages. I think that's a nice length for people who don't start going to sleep. And a portfolio, think of it as a sample portfolio online. It's a bit like fishing. You want to get their attention. You want to play the game. You don't want to give away too much, but you want to get enough.

And so that could [00:03:00] be anything from 5 to 15 pages. And that is typically what I define it as. a good application.

Tom Rowntree: Yeah, good point. So I think the important thing about the CV is that you don't rumble on, like you don't need to show and describe your whole life and everything that's happening.

I think it's really important to keep it short and sweet. And Stephen said, you can obviously very easily be looking through CVs and reading CVs and get bored and just disregard CVs if they're a bit too long and drag on a little bit. So what do you think about having photos on a CV, a photo of yourself?

Do you think it's very professional? There's obviously mixed, there's mixed questions about this, and I've got my opinion, but It's

Stephen Drew: subjective, it's subjective, and I had a chat with Martin Andrews as a professor about this, and it can go really either way, because I never did. I've seen sometimes with a CV, it can be fine.

The thing is though, it's about taste and the image can be something where maybe a small image, a professional image, it can be fine. At the [00:04:00] same time though, what you're doing is you're allowing the opportunity for people to then build. Unconscious biases and it can go either way. The bias can be like, Oh yeah, this Tom guy, I've seen him online.

He's cool. Let's get him in. Let's get him in. Or it can be another way, which you don't even know. And that's the risk. So it's one of them things of sometimes it can be nice and friendly. Sometimes it can go the other way. So it's probably safer not to do an image. Yeah.

Tom Rowntree: Yeah, I personally agree because initially when I was putting together my CV, I've had this year, I've probably done eight different types of my CV and really developing it and chipping and chipping away at it.

And the first kind of few, I had a picture of me and I spoke to a couple people and I personally think it makes it not as professional. And also in some ways I've seen people that I've got a picture of them, which takes up half of the CV, [00:05:00] way too dominant. It takes away from the information that you're trying to provide to the reader and it just completely distracts you.

So I think if you were to use a picture, keep it short, keep it small try not to take away from the the actual information that you are trying to get across within your CV. Yeah,

Stephen Drew: the work should speak for itself, Tom, and the reality is you want them to meet you in an interview and kind of, you want to speak with 'em, really.

And that's the thing with the picture, that sometimes the person makes the bias and they don't really wanna ring you. The best thing to do is to send you CV and follow up with a call that's a lot more personal than a pitch. A pitcher can't speak, and in the interview, you are the one that's gonna convince the person to get the job.

Tom Rowntree: And I also think something else with applications in sending off a CV, a cover letter, a portfolio, I think it's also interesting if you could then send off a couple more things, like a little little kind of teasers that are going to entice people into your profile more. So for example, you could have an interactive [00:06:00] business card, which you could send, which would be like a small file size.

And obviously in this world where we can't go out there and hand out CVs and hand out business cards and. Introduce ourselves. You obviously got to find innovative ways to get yourself out there and get yourself across and get your personality and your skills across in an innovative way across through a digital platform.

Stephen Drew: You're definitely onto something. It's definitely good to stand out. What you've got to do though is make sure that the basics are right. What we don't want is this super virtual CV and portfolio and then Janine in the office prints it out. and it doesn't work right so what you need to do is we've got to imagine that he works in the old school way and then you want that interactive pdf or you want that video so that it's like the core should always be strong and then It's just like that little cherry on the top with your little video or something where you, maybe you have, I'm just thinking out loud with yourself that you could have one of them scanny things where you got your phone and then maybe it [00:07:00] goes to a private YouTube channel and you're like, Hey, thank you so much for your CV for looking at my CV on portfolio.

I really appreciate it. I'm here, I'm available. And then people go, wow, this is like a, this is like an Easter egg in a film. I found something which, it's like GTA or something like that, where you find something hidden at the end of the level. And that's really nice. Where it'll go wrong though, is if you send like a 30 meg file or a video and you expect people to open it because they want, and you need to make sure that there's the CV and portfolio.

So you want old meets new. You need to make sure that they all work and then you have an innovative twist on it, which catches people's attentions.

Tom Rowntree: 100 percent because I with my application, I actually did an interactive business card where you could actually click on the business card and it would go to my website.

Great. It's quite easy and quick to do them as well, just an interactive PDF. I think it's just those little, what, those little things just to add to your application to stand out from the rest, especially in this kind of digital age.

Stephen Drew: I agree. The thing is though, as well. I've seen your CV [00:08:00] portfolio, they're strong as it is, and then you've got the other stuff on top.

And you're right, to stand out though is important, and I think this is where you go on with this, it's just like, how can you stand out? The thing is though, you've got to make sure that the basics are correct, and then it's like, how do you get people's attention? And one of the things that I keep talking about on the videos we do, and when we're going into these in webinars and so forth, is the reality is the person that's going to be selling this is you.

As in, you're the best person, and you're going to be the biggest influence in getting this. And ringing up and doing stuff that you're on about, or doing things a little bit out of the box, or calling up the company and making an effort, being personable and being open and taking the phone call, that is what's going to get you a job.

And what you can't do is, sometimes you can't wait around for the You send your CV and portfolio, but definitely follow up because especially now in this current climate, there's a lot of applications, Tom. And what you don't want to do is someone can think you're great. And then they [00:09:00] might forget in a day or two, and then they've had another CV.

So you've got to constantly, Re emerge, and you've got to constantly engage with them until you find out an answer one way or another.

Tom Rowntree: Okay, so if you were to get a reply back and you were to be successful with your application and get an interview, what are some key points that you think are really important to get across in an interview?

I know you've discussed this in your webinar. And let's try to sum that up on the podcast. That would be great.

Stephen Drew: Great. So when you get the interview, enjoy the moment for a start. It's Hey you're up with it and the formula is working right, which is great because receiving portfolios, both feedbacks, we know now that you're onto something.

Those are people want to meet you. So that's fantastic. So have a deep breath. Now don't go neck on a bottle of wine or anything you want to, now is the time to sit down and get your battle strategy. So the short version, Because like you said, I've gone into this in a wider sense, the short version is right.

It's who, what, where, when, why, both ways. So you want to [00:10:00] totally know you're going to go research mode. We're going to go mission impossible. We're going to go through that company and you're going to know everything about it. You're going to know it from when it started, where they're based, Ideally, what software they've used, how they look at a few job vacancies and stuff like that.

Find out all the information you can, any news, any planning. Go on LinkedIn, see how many employees they've got there. And all this stuff so that you feel equipped, that you understand that company. Because when you're going to meet them You need to convey to them why you want to work there and actually in the process of living this company you're going to get invested and excited, which is good.

And then on the other end you want to prepare yourself. So you want to talk about your, any work you've done in industry, any volunteering work, any stuff like that, any practical things like Revit, any technical models, you want to do that. And so you want to showcase all that stuff. We're going to talk about a portfolio that you're going to send online, being a bit shorter.

Imagine this is like the big discography of work, so this is what you're going to show. And it's the same thing you learned about TARP. What we don't want is for you to go into an [00:11:00] interview and it's like Lord of the Rings. And the guy's there oh, I gotta go home in a bit, and you just, we're on page three, this is going to be a nightmare!

So now you've got to rehearse it, and you've got to go through it. So think about the interview, and think about the sheets, and think about a Petra Koustra. Have you ever heard of that? I always call it, I think of them like Pikachu or something, but you basically, you get this, yeah.

10 minute presentation, 20 seconds a slide. And it's brutal. Someone like me who talks for a living, you go, what? It's done. And it's the same thing with the interview. If you can master the technique of going through your work, that's the way to do it. And the other thing is definitely put the most recent stuff you do at the start.

The one big mistake everyone does is that they put their part one work at the start and it's like you just finished your part one time, right? The work you've done now has evolved so much compared to your part one. And the biggest. Let me show you what I did three years ago when I didn't know as much.

So you want to go with the strongest stuff [00:12:00] at the start. Rehearse it with your mom, your dad, whatever. Your friends. Go through that and build up to the day. And the other thing is, if it's an online interview, make sure you're doing Available, make sure all your tech works, and it's like me and you before, my micros were, we were setting up, and it's we don't want that when it's when it's Mr.

Heatherwick on the thing, because you're just gonna be freaking out, and the last thing you want to do is that, you want to make sure that your tech's all ready, you've told your flatmates. Stay out of the room. I know we're not going to, you don't want anything to throw you off the guard, but if something like that does happen, try to embrace the human nature and have a joke about it.

It's much more better to do that than to freak out and then you're on the back burner. But so the short answer to summarize all that preparation, understand who they are and get what you've got ready to talk about and be prepared for the final note I'd say is be the conversation for them. Don't go in there.

thinking you're like Leonardo DiCaprio on Titanic and you've got a script because they'll say something in a conversation [00:13:00] way and it'll throw you off and you'll be there going ah you know what it's like that so you know sometimes when you're in uni and you watch someone give a really good have a really good project and then they have the most dull crit And you just, they were, like, I told them, so today, I've got my project, and yeah, I have, I've developed a, Sorry, just just, I've And you're like, hello, I'm right here, look at me in the eyes, and that's the thing.

I'd much rather someone has a conversation like this. And we free flow and we can spa, we can get ideas. The thing is, you wanna research the basis of what you're doing. You wanna keep the key points, you wanna talk about your ideas, you wanna talk there. You can use Rabbit. The thing is though, you don't wanna go back to Mr.

Script, man, because Mr. Script, man, it's just, it's such a kill joy. It's like everyone turns off and that's the thing. What you don't, you wanna stand out and standing out is having a conversation.

Tom Rowntree: [00:14:00] Yeah it's all about having a discussion and that conversation. It's not about them asking you a question.

You look down, you read a script. I hate, I could never do that in presentations at uni. I always struggle reading the script because it completely throw you off. I don't know how, I don't know how people do it. And also to add to what you're saying, I think an important thing is to find something in the company that you also find interesting and that you want to discuss as well.

So when they ask you the question of why do you think. Our place is the right place for you or the right practice for you. You have that thing that you like about their practice that you can discuss with them. And that kind of sets off a conversation which you to settle yourself down, settle them down.

I think that initial conversation is super important.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I saw Hawkins Brown, saw Harvinder, he used to actually too, and me and Manchester, they popped down really talented, leads the infrastructure team. And he said the same thing. He's like, when we were hiring at Hawkins Brown, we're looking for people that were culturally in line with what we're on about.

[00:15:00] And I think that's just about having the A genuine interest in the work that the company does. An interest in architecture. The ability to say, you're prepared to work hard. You're at the start. You can't go in going Hey, I want this bit. These people are going to impart wisdom on you and you're going to learn from them.

So you definitely want to be humble about it. And Yeah, I think it's, I think you nailed it. It's wanting it as well. And I think that the, a conversation where you're like, Hey, I don't know everything. I really want this. And I like this company and I want to be there. And if you've got that energy, then that energy and excitement is way more interesting than script person.

It's Oh, okay, you want someone that when they're on your team is going to help out, is going to learn. And ideally you want to hire someone that's going to be with the company for a few years. So you're going to look for that enthusiasm in the interview as an employer.

Tom Rowntree: Yeah, and I think it's super important to express how much you want to learn and develop and discover and [00:16:00] explore rather than say, I want to work for you because I can do this and this, you've got to tell them how they are going to be the right place for you to learn and develop because at the end of the day, you're going to always explore and learn throughout studying architecture or anything in any industry.

So I think that's super important to get that across.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And the other thing I'd like to add is that it's good to show who you are as a human. So I think that anything you've done, for instance, in charities or anything you've done outside, or even this, For instance, you see now you go to a rugby club, so there's one guy, there's one director in particular that, cause I'm Welsh and he's Welsh, every time I meet him, he'll just talk about the rugby, right?

And this is the thing, I don't even play rugby that much, but I'm like, yeah, of course, I, I like to have a chat with him and he likes to have a, we'll have a drink or something and we'll talk about it. And that's the rapport and that's the thing that when I was a part one, that's at the end of the interview, what we talked about is that I, at the time I was fascinated by Tom, the project's gonna move.

It's amazing. And I was [00:17:00] all into that. And but funny enough, the design director was, he was like, yeah, when I was Steven and I was pulling things around in strings and then we had this moment, when you're there and he, the next day he offered me the job and it was purely because I I got above the normal and I managed to get his interest and he managed to get mine and he'd be like, Oh yeah, Steve, he was exactly like me. He's really passionate about all the stuff that's offered. And I was like, yes, and that's the, and that's the thing. And it came from just Exposing yourself a little bit.

And it's difficult because it's the balance. You don't want to be like, Hey, I've been playing Red Dead for the last two weeks and it's a GTA. And you've got to, we want to do it in a professional way. And we and you want to you, But you want to be human, so like a really good example is getting involved with maybe one or two architectural charities, Architects Benevolent Society or Article 25.

I'm an ambassador for the Architects Benevolent Society, and it is really good fun, and you go to meet people, and if I'd never did it, then you know [00:18:00] what? What would I be doing sitting around the house? And it's a bit like the social, it's been quite fun to get involved and chat to people, and yeah, it takes up a bit of time, but I find it really rewarding and when someone enjoys it, that's good.

And that's the kind of thing that it'll come across in the interview if you've gone above and beyond or if you're a go getter. And it goes back to your thing, Tom, if they want to hire someone that's pushing the boundaries, they almost, no one, the person, nine to five, yeah. Okay, it's good that someone can do the drawings, but they really want someone who's going to be like a bustling architect, who's passionate, who wants to take on the world, and I think that person with that energy and that raw enthusiasm, when you start now, you're like, it's my job, I'm going to do it.

That's who they're going to hire. Yeah.

Tom Rowntree: Okay. So following speaking to people, going into interviews, researching companies, how do you know what the right practice is for you? That is super.

Stephen Drew: Oh, wow. You're really giving me the big ones, aren't you? Okay. How do you know? You know what you don't, it's the [00:19:00] truth.

I think it's really difficult. So context back in the old days with me, gosh, in 2009, it was the recession when I was a part one. And I went for interviews and every practice I fell, I was like, no, this one's really the one, the other place was good, but this one was really good. And the truth is a lot of places have a lot of different things to offer.

So sometimes you will clearly know, I think it's like, you can be amazed. Sometimes you have the best website and they're famous and you go in. I'm not too sure. A lot of times, for instance, a smaller architectural practice, it might be not so famous, but you've learned so much and actually then I know people who have got the small practices and then they go to huge practices which are famous because they do really well.

So I think that the way you know is you can never always know and It's more about what you think you're going to get out of the opportunity. The thing I would say as well is that I worked in EPR, which was great, and that's why I openly talked to the, say, yeah, there's definitely a practice worth checking out and applying to.

I had a fantastic part one and part [00:20:00] two, and sometimes I speak to people and they haven't had such a good time. As I've worked at places, not for instance, I worked in a large shopping retailer, I can't say which one, and I hated it, I absolutely hated it, right? Yeah. And I worked in another place before and I was like, this isn't for me.

And the thing is, it's sometimes when you go somewhere and you don't like it, it actually reinforces your decision. So sometimes it's important to almost, I've had bad bosses before, and you know when you get a good boss. Like now I have a good boss and so the managing director at McDonald company, I get along really well and I respect him.

But the thing is maybe I would have taken him for granted if I didn't have so many bad bosses. And then I guess what I'm trying to say is, look, if you get a job in architectural practice and maybe they aren't as famous or yeah, everyone wants at one point, wouldn't it be great to work in Foster's Partners and stuff.

But think about it. People work really hard there. You can, but a number of architectural practice, you can get great experience and you can go later. So what I'm trying to say is. [00:21:00] Don't overthink it. Just think about what you can get out of it right now and think about the people involved. Yeah,

Tom Rowntree: yeah, I think the important thing is just getting yourself out there trying it out and yeah, that's the end of the day That's the whole point of getting experience and just testing because you're not gonna find what the right practice is for you Unless you go into that practice you meet the people you learn about the culture You do different types of projects and you begin to learn and learn Develop and understand what kind of things and what direction you want to go in and what kind of people you like and what kind of environment, etc.

You need to, that's the whole point of getting work experience, I think.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And while I'm going to take a moment, I'm going to do, cause I know we've been on those before, but head peeve. I'm going to look at the camera for this. If you get offered an interview. And you go, I don't know, and you don't go to it, then that is one of the things that I just don't understand because why don't you go and check out the practice for yourself?

My biggest pet peeve is when people write off a company without even going [00:22:00] there to say, no, you had your practice in the future and you set it up, the website might not be there yet, but you're on to something that's going big and people are like, no, not sure. And I tell you what, that you can't afford to be picky right now.

And also if you go for a few interviews. By the time the third or fourth one comes up, which is gonna be heavy work, or the company that you really dreamed of, you are gonna be well versed because interviewing is like a skill. And if you literally just write off every company until you go to your perfect one, guess what?

You might get really nervous. You might have overthink it. So don't overthink things. Don't judge a book based cover and go and check out these places. Go to that interview. I'm going to grab the camera and go to that interview. It's really important. And

Tom Rowntree: you mentioned being picky there.

Should you be picky in this current climate with COVID?

Stephen Drew: Okay, it's always a debate, right? And so with me, I've made my stance on this. You should not be picky. And it seems, I love the social because it's debate. And the thing is, there's no right way. Because sometimes, You, I've [00:23:00] known there's that jammy guy in the studio that was, I'm like, I sent my CV to 900 places and I think I got so many rejections you wouldn't know.

And then I got out of that six or seven interviews and I got one, two offers and one was 12, 000 pounds during 2009 and one was 20, 000 pounds. And so part of my Cyrus moved up a little bit. The thing is though, what was funny is EPR came right at the end. And I had no more interviews in line, and it was just like, it was do or die, and I wanted it, and then they came through.

The thing is, I know when people are like that, so I send 900 CVs, and I know some people, they send out one CV, and get the job. But I do think that is a bit like, that is the outlier, that's the 1%. And so my opinion is, you can't be picky, and I think Probability helps, especially in times like this, with COVID and economic crises, and so you have to balance up your own inner ego, is that the word?

Because you deserve it. You've worked hard. Of [00:24:00] course you deserve to work somewhere that's good. Can you afford to be so picky right now, in this time where everyone's wearing masks, and there's jobs, and it's crazy, and the world's kind of going all a bit bonkers? I think you should be not, I shouldn't be picky and then, yeah, I just think that if you're picky, you're really throwing yourself out to the woods right now because probability counts.

And remember, I would rather, if you start with the companies you like, of course, but why not send it out to 500 brilliant companies? You don't need to send it out to 10. And sometimes finding stuff off the beaten track is just as good. So everyone knows about Zahra Hadid. Every part one in the world is going to apply to Foster's.

Do not think any otherwise, right? Because they are. And so why not have a good company which is famous or off the beaten tracks like There's a guy, oh, it was a director from Hairworks called Andrew, who set up his own company. He's one big scheme. Gosh, I have to [00:25:00] remember the name. Also, for instance I have a friend called Jonathan Holt.

He's a fantastic architect who has his own little architectural practice. Now, everyone's going to be writing down scribbles, but I'm not going to give any more away. But the thing is, you've got to go out there and look. And the thing is, these are genius people that work in a big company and set their own stuff up.

And that's a really cool thing, because then you can be part of it. Building their thing, and maybe the company's not so famous now, they're gonna have less applications and you probably, you might even get more attention than a big company. So it's worth thinking about.

Tom Rowntree: I agree. I think it's very, I didn't see how people can be picky at the moment.

No. If someone offers you a job or offers you an interview. You gotta bite the hand off. I don't know why, I don't know why you'd even hesitate. If you think about how many people are applying for a position, either as a part one or a part two, think about how many thousands of people, especially in London, think about how competitive it is and how many people aren't hiring, but [00:26:00] they might be hiring one or two people.

If someone offers you an interview or a job, you've got to absolutely bite the hand off, I think.

Stephen Drew: I think you're right. That's why I was getting a little bit, you were on another one of my pet peeves here. That's why I'm getting all excited, because I'm like, yeah, you're right. And this is the other thing that sometimes in what I do in recruitment, sometimes I'll have someone that's they've got a lot of value and sometimes they've already fixed in what they want.

So being picky, right? And sometimes someone can lose their job or something and they've got to go no, Steve, I'm going to hold out for the job that suits. And then. They're holding out for a long time, and we're talking months, and sometimes I've had sometimes people turn down a job, and this is another good one for you to think, Tom, because remember, part one salaries is a really subjective one, okay?

What is it, 20 grand, 22, what's my worth? And what you've got to think is that if you hold out, say now there's a job at 18, 000 and you think, It's a bit low. Thing is, this is a small company, and for them, it's a lot of money, and you're going to get good experience. And let's say [00:27:00] that you're like, oh, but my mate, he's on 21 grand, right?

Let me throw this out to you. If you do not take that, if you hold back because you're looking for a company which is going to pay you more money, you're probably going to be looking for another month. So that's two grand gone straight away because you're waiting and in that way, because when you, the job process, it's like, it takes long.

You've got to meet them and the feedback, that's going to take a month. So I would, especially in your early in your career, don't get precious about money because if you're waiting one month, that's two grand gone, 20 grand salary, 12 months in a year. 1, 800 pounds, 1, 300 after tax, whatever it is, gone, while you're looking.

So be precious about your salary later in your career, but your part one and part two really, it should be about, is this a good company? Can they give me the experience I want? And am I getting paid enough? And the thing is, I don't think you should work unpaid. There's one or two exceptions I have to the rule where Article 25 is a really good charity.

I do think it's unpaid, but you can get a [00:28:00] bot and get really good experience. And it is a legitimate charity. Other than that, though, anything commercial, I would be very reluctant to advise anyone to work for free. And I remember I had 2009, someone to say, look, if the reality is we're a small company.

If you worked as an intern close to unpaid, we could probably hire you. And I remember saying, I remember speaking with my dad after I was like, I don't know whether I should have taken it or not, but I'm glad I didn't. And the thing is what I said to them is look, I need to have a fair salary to live.

It's not that I'm looking to rack money up at the bank per se, it's just that it's going to cost me to get on the bus, it's going to cost me student accommodation, and I'm not from a background where my parents can like financially support me, even though they've been really good and they've been helpful where they can.

I grew up in a, what's it, social housing in South Wales, right? Humble roots. And the thing is, I was like, I'd love to go to your practice, but I need to get the bus. And I need to eat a sandwich, which isn't at the Asda's non taste special, it'd be nice to survive.

And so that's where I [00:29:00] think is that you do need to ask for a salary that's fair, but do be flexible on it. And don't go, I know we all work hard and I know architects, it would be nice if we earned more, but that will come with time. But salary comes with experience and you need to get the experience first.

Tom Rowntree: Yeah. And it's like you say about the whole. 18k thing is that you could be in an office or a studio where you are really influential in the office. You are learning so much, but you are earning 18, 000 or you could be in a huge office where you don't really get that much experience. You just get bits and bobs and you could be earning 22, 000.

At the end of the day, the more, the thing that's more important. The grand scheme of things is getting that valuable experience and getting that one on one time with whoever or going out to site visits and having more interactions with clients. So at the end of the day, though you may be earning less, you're gaining more experience, more valuable experience that is going to potentially set you up for earning more when you're older.

So I think It's important not to, especially as a [00:30:00] part one, I think that the part one you can't really be picky at all really with salaries. Obviously you say that, say if you were moving to London and you were you needed that extra bit of money because obviously the lifestyle and the expenses are going to be more in traveling and obviously rent is obviously going to be more than certain areas.

So you do have to suggest maybe I do need to earn more. So the practice will be a bit more of a competitive salary, but at the end of the day, the most important thing is getting the experience and getting into a place where you're going to get that one on one time with people and gain that really valuable experience.

Yeah, you've got to balance it up. You've got to balance it up.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, get yourself the experience first. And the other thing is probably worth mentioning while we're here, Tom, is that an architectural practice, you will usually have a bracket for a part one salary. So everyone's usually on the same.

So it's very unlikely to compete and sorry, to influence that. Whereas if you're a part two or a few years experience, you're going to get paid more than a part two or one years experience if you got free. So that changes. But [00:31:00] at part one, it really is. What you get is what you get. And normally, if it's a small architectural practice, a bit further on London, then salaries go down.

If you're in, for instance, Foster's and Partners in salary in London, I'm not too sure what they carry on partner salary, but I imagine it would be like 22, 000, 22, 000, 23, 000. And usually it is what it is.

Tom Rowntree: Yeah, and then final thing before we get into the Q& A from Instagram is this is even this is a question as well What is the transition like from uni to industry?

Okay, we could say this in terms of working and the type of work that you do I guess.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, okay Short answer, I'm gonna do one of these webinars on it, because it's now a long topic. The short answer is it's a big change. You're gonna have a big shock to the system. I remember, and I remember when I went, I was like, yeah, no, it's fine.

And then I got a bit nervous from the day, I'm like, Tom, I can't go, I don't know what I'm doing. This is in Waitrose where I was doing the chickens, and [00:32:00] you get there and you're like, hello. And you learn, and you're gonna be, you're gonna be nervous, and it's completely normal. And you get better at it and you get better and better.

It is a shop and it is very different. And what I would say is that on one hand it's super exciting because it's real and it's there. On the other hand, you just started, okay. You're not going to be designing right straight away. I was lucky that I did quite a lot of visual. I had a really cool team.

Although the first day that I worked in architecture,

It was my choice and I was buzzing at the time and I remember speaking to my mate after and I'm like, I can't work this weekend and he's you what? And I'm like, mate, I don't understand, I'm enjoying it, I'm on a project, da. And that's the thing, you're going to be excited, it's going to be cool.

And it's also, you're going to be working on, so sometimes you can do stuff which is really nice collage in. The other thing is, And you will be the guy or I was the guy that went and printed stuff out and folded the drawings and you know you will make the cup of tea and it's a bit of respect [00:33:00] and fun yeah in a nice way and I was they always did it with me with a bit of a tongue in the cheek and I did the same way and over time you build a bit of rapport and then you know sometimes then you can be like when you develop trust then you can start influencing and it's really good to have an opinion and always feel free to do that.

Don't overcompensate there and go on day one and be, you're rocking up top and you're like, I did it. You've got to be humble but say your opinion. I really like that or I think this is a really good, out of the three options that you've done, I really like option number one.

That stuff's really cool. And the more you do that is you develop trust and rapport. So by the back then, the transition is going to be big. It's going to be different. And it's different for everyone. So I did quite well academically. And then it took me it was a bit of a culture shock at first. And in the end, I started getting good in the office.

I've got a friend who was Not very good in academia. He was always bus butt heads with the tutors and stuff. And in practice now he's [00:34:00] like the main man and he knows so much stuff, although when we'd have a pub quiz, he was always the annoying friend that knew everything and I knew nothing.

But he was the thing is he's really good and what I'm trying to say is say, no, you got a two, one or a two, two, more importantly, a two two or a two three. I've seen people on the part two that had a two, two, and then they get. First, I've got one friend that was in the zine and then now he works in Richard Rogers and he had a tutu so you can change stuff and it was really him working in practice which kind of propelled it because so what you're in for is in you're in for an actually an inciting thing because some people learn more and they you're out that before.

So it's the unknown. Go into it with an open mind frame. The thing is though, it's a strange one. Until you've done it, it's really hard to explain. So when you go, you're going to be nervous, but you're going to learn so much and it's going to be, it's going to, I loved it and I don't regret it at all. I just didn't know what I was going in for, put it that way.

Tom Rowntree: And no one will know what they're going in for because even I, when I did summer [00:35:00] work experience for three months, I was, when I got there, I was in a bit of a shock as well. Obviously at university, you're quite creative and you're obviously testing things and whatnot. And then when you go into practice, it's obviously a lot more especially for a part one, really, you just you turn up to, to gain some experience, really, to see what it's like to work in a practice and what kind of people you interact with and what the kind of setup is.

And you're there to understand the kind of basics rather than you're not, I wouldn't expect to go into a practice and be, really involved in a lot of things because at the end of the day, you're probably not going to be because at the end of the day, you need to build up that trust and they need to understand what you're capable of because it's all good having all this amazing stuff on your CV and you've done this, you've done that, but they need to be able to see that from their perspective and gain that trust from their side of things.

It is a mad transition and I'm looking forward to it to be fair. I'm looking forward to it when I, Eventually, hopefully, if I get a job. You'll get there. We'll get there one day.

Stephen Drew: You will [00:36:00] get there soon, don't worry, just keep pushing. But yeah, I think you're on to something. Don't be, don't worry, don't have imposter syndrome.

They're not expecting you to know everything. I remember rocking up and you're like, how do I detail?

Tom Rowntree: Like, how do I do it? I have

Stephen Drew: no clue, right? And it's about your ability to learn and ask things like, what am I doing? And then one guy in the thing will be like, look in this book, mate, a course, everything's in there, and you're like

Tom Rowntree: Then on the other side of things, a lot of people might not really enjoy the university experience.

They get into practice and absolutely thrive straight away because that is the kind of work and the kind of environment that they prefer than university. So going both ways, you can Some people may, because I know people at university are too ready. Like the kind of engineering side of things, doing the detailing, and at university we didn't really get to do much of that.

So when you go into practice, you'll obviously get a lot more into that and get in and you'll be quite comfortable in that environment. So there's other ways of looking at it. You may enjoy university experience and being creative, and then you [00:37:00] might find the transition a little bit difficult.

But if you're at university and you're not really into that kind of side of things, you might find, You'd much prefer being in practice, so you just, once again, it's one of those things where you've got to get the experience to understand whether you enjoy it and what's the kind of right environment to be in for you.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, by doing it, you'll have an opinion. At the end of the year, you'll go, I absolutely loved it, and you'll be pumping, or you might do something different. Because I really enjoyed my part one and part two. The thing is, though, and we can talk about this. Some people go on to do different things from it, and you touched upon it, where some architects can be project managers, some can be really good engineers.

I went into recruitment, and we were talking a bit about my friend who's now got this big YouTube channel as well, and he does that full time, but the thing is, it was because he worked in architecture and he studied that it got him there, and so what I would say I, the worst thing I think I would have ever done is that if at the time I didn't do my part, I didn't do part one experience and I brought it off because even though, because [00:38:00] what I do now is built upon that experience and that's why I specialize in architectural recruitment and career mentoring is because I've been there, so it helps a lot more and then it makes it more interesting for me.

But it goes back to your thing of the thing I touched upon, let's say worst case we're really struggling with jobs at the moment because, Hey. It is a not a good time. Then keep being busy, work on a building site or get anything involved or anything creative. The again, Harvinder said this in Hawkins Brown he did a five top quick things.

And basically you've got to keep the creative juices flowing. So it's like you're doing this podcast right now. Okay. That's more productive than I don't know, the boys season two on Amazon, which I will watch and it'll be cool. But you do that after and you've got to keep acting, you've got to keep engaging, you've got to be, you've got to keep thinking architecture, you've got to keep drawing, you've got to do that and that will help with the transition.

So to answer your question in a weird way, if you're going straight into an architectural practice, great, embrace it. And be [00:39:00] prepared to learn stuff on the go and be prepared to just remember you don't need to know everything. You just need to go in there with an open mind. And if you struggle at the moment because it's a bit difficult, try to do things laterally.

Get involved with arts get involved with anything building on site labor, anything construction, anything surveying, anything, or even just, do anti Maureen's House Conservatory and do anything just to keep it going. Because when you do get that interview then. You sit and I would find it really impressive someone that struggled and again on the social there was one, there's my friend Nassar and he did the same thing in part one where he struggled, Tom, and he got one job one week here and two months here and worked on the site and in the end now he's an associate at BDEP but what he had to do during that time is he had to struggle and get little bits here, little bits there, little bits and it was enough in the end.

So you've got to keep going.

Tom Rowntree: Okay, nice one. We'll dive into some questions that we've got from Instagram. The [00:40:00] first one is you've touched on it, but we're gonna see if you've got any more. What is a pet peeve of architectural creatives? Obviously, apart from the fact that people don't turn up for interviews.

Have you got any? Oh, that's the worst, that's

Stephen Drew: the worst, because I believe it's honesty policy. If me and you, it's like respect, right? And if you say That what I've learned about recruitment, I never push people into jobs because it always goes wrong. Because they know if you're culturally, you don't feel like you're quite worth Heatherwick and then I try to convince you to do him, then that's not going to work because you're going to go there and be like Steve, you just told me a bunch of rubbish.

I always, what I do is I encourage people to go for interviews and the worst thing, it goes back to what we talked about before. So number one pet peeve, people go, no, I'm not impressed. My wife, no, you haven't met them, so that's the more to definitely do your spellings and go over that stuff and you're right because it is, I'm not too bothered about it, but yeah, but there's a chap that I work with and he's so good.

He's been doing it for 20 years and he literally scanned the page and he would go, I can't send the CV out with [00:41:00] all these spellings and then I have a look at it and go, oh my, oh yeah, there's, it's everything there. And because what it is, it's distracting. So that one, then huge file sizes. That's another pet peeve and too much images.

Cause imagine this is like Tinder now and I have a short, I have a short attention span. So you need to wham bam me. And when I've got like loads of the rings. It just goes on and on.

Tom Rowntree: So for a portfolio that you send off, how many pages do you think, just to clear that one up, how many pages do you think a portfolio should be when you send it off?

Stephen Drew: I'm reluctant to say, because everyone's going to be like, oh, he said 15 and I did 16 and blah blah blah, oh, I did 14. It's about the feel of it and it's about the ride, so the whole thing needs to read. that I've got this feeling. Think of it like a checklist, right? So it's like an elevator pitch. I've got one minute in this portfolio for someone watching it to entice them.

So you've got to grab their attention and you've got to tick all their boxes. So in this document, and that's why I say typically 10 to 15 pages, because anything longer you drags on, you've got to be like, boom, draw the technical [00:42:00] detail. Here's some drawings. Here's some Revit examples. Here's the work I've done in industry where I did in my summer job.

You mentioned you were at. Here's that. Extra. How many people have done that? No, I have it here. Here's some technical drawings. Here's my Revit model. Then here's my Power Free work. And so the person, basically it's basically what we're on about is the portfolio. It's less about how many pages. It's more about how don't you like, It's as a fellow YouTuber, it's how do you stop, how do you keep people engaged?

And if we in here bang on for ages about the same points,

Tom Rowntree: and

Stephen Drew: if we're dull, so it's the borderline of being entertaining, hello, and all this stuff, and then it's keeping someone interested, keep looking. And the same thing in a portfolio sheet, it's like, Oh, okay. I gotta keep looking.

Basically, you want someone to be like, Ooh, it just flicked through and it was good. And then it's not too long now. Oh, and then they bring it, you bring you up. You don't want someone sending like a million technical drawings and Oh my God, this is so boring. [00:43:00] Yeah. It's like I answered it in a crazy way.

Tom Rowntree: No, that was good. I think it's super important to, I would personally say, just try and keep it as short as possible. Even if that means five pages, if that shows everything that you want to get across and all the important things, and that's fine. Do not send anything that is going to be a full a hundred page portfolio or whatnot, because if they, at the end of the day, if they want to see more.

And they want to know more about the project. They're going to call you for an interview and that is your opportunity to dive more into the project. So don't try and show them everything. When you first apply and send off your CV and portfolio, et cetera. It's the idea is to entice them in, show them what kind of work you can do, what kind of work you're capable of, and then you show them in the interview and et cetera, and that's I think that's super important.

So don't try and show them everything in the interview. And when you first apply. Yeah. Next question.

Stephen Drew: Come on. Nah. Do it. Let's go. See what Twitter's got to say. Oh, Instagram. Come on, Instagram.

Tom Rowntree: How important is [00:44:00] we already answered this, how important is getting experience during summer holidays of uni?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it's important. If you can, it's important. I got I couldn't get a job in architecture practice, but what I did is what really helped me in the interview was I worked part time at Waitrose. So what I was talking about was working in a profession. environment and support myself in something I believed by doing another job.

And that carried a lot of weight. And the other thing I did was that I asserted Oh, I worked at a festival and I was literally pouring plants in the festival. You imagine, right? It was just absolutely chaos. Thing is though, it was good in that way. Yeah, cause I was saying like, it was highly stressful situations and, I everyone tried to sneak beers off me and you know what, yeah, all this stuff and the thing is we were talking about that and then also the other thing that really helped was that during the university I did an extra little tidbit with a company called Jason Bruce Studio and you should definitely check them out and they do all these like cool interactive lights and exhibitions and what was good in the interview was that I could talk about that.

Because what it is, it adds another [00:45:00] flavor to your academic work. And that, yeah, it definitely helps. And if you haven't got in, okay, you haven't got in. You need to start thinking about what you've done. If you've literally sat there on that you've done your uni work and you haven't done anything else, then Yeah, you've got less to go in with.

Think of it like ammunition. The more stuff you have like this, the more well equipped you are, more like feathers to the bow. And so if you don't have it, maybe you should start thinking about doing something now, signing up to a charity now, doing something now while you're looking. That can be quite useful.

Tom Rowntree: Super, super, super important. I can't, I always tell people how important it is to get experience. And obviously it's difficult to find that because it's not easy to get yourself out there. But I was very lucky to get in a position where I could get some work experience. And I can't say how important it was for me.

In say fourth, when you're applying for a company and they want someone to use Revit. And for then, for you to then go into that interview and say I've [00:46:00] used Revit in industry experience. During my first year at university, during my summer, that is instantly going to put you so much further ahead of someone who hasn't got any work experience.

And even when I did it in first year, it completely shaped the way I worked in second year because I knew how people work in practice. And I wanted to begin to shape my experience and my work and the softwares that I use, et cetera, to begin to put me in a better position. So for when I come out of my part one, I was already thinking in a similar way to how practitioners are thinking and it's it completely shapes your experience at university and you like we said, it would be a shock and it's obviously difficult to then transition back to university work, but it is super important.

Yeah. How do I find studios and teams I can apply for a job? That doesn't make, that doesn't really make sense, but

Stephen Drew: I think I know what you mean. It's like, where do you look for jobs? So job boards. You're going to find one or two, but everyone's going to look at the job board. I would [00:47:00] start going on Google Maps.

I'm working on something now where it would be nice to almost have a directory of all the companies that everyone can use. The thing is, you've got to go out there and get it yourself right now. So the think of it this way, though. The harder it is almost for you to find out the information about the company, it's harder it's going to be for everyone else.

And so sometimes you can get really good companies, which are just not Perceive they're not well known maybe to you, but in their world they are. So a really good example might be something like Leonard Designs, who maybe they don't win all the awards. They, they're not regarded in the same circles as Heatherwick, but Leonard Designs are amazing for retail.

And they're really known as like Leonard's I think his name's David Leonard, really, he is the man. Yeah,

Tom Rowntree: that's who I work for.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, oh, Leonard is, there you go. So you get it, that they're really well regarded in retail, and I didn't know that until I worked with them on, in architecture. And the thing is, though, you're not going to find them, maybe, on Disney.[00:48:00]

Maybe you will every now and then, win or loss, but the thing is that you can still learn a lot. So you went to Lennar Design, that's a good company. And so that's the point, by you going out and getting that experience, you're in a lot more of a stronger position than going to another interview, saying that you've worked at Lennar Designs.

And so that's my point is you go out there, how do you find stuff? Let me tell you, asking people how do you find stuff, that ain't gonna work, you gotta get on Google and you're gonna go looking, you're gonna go deep, just be smart about it. I remember, I think I did it, that there used to be a Rebill list of all the companies and I went A to Z in London, I went on every website and I literally emailed everyone, I was like the postman.

with my CV. And I think what I would do now, if that list is not available, I would probably get on Google Maps and I would start out where you live in. And I would just geographically go out and then, say I'm in Manchester, I'd go through all the areas. Like that. And then [00:49:00] if I was in London, I would literally just target every area.

And then I would click on them on there and then go on their website and quickly look the director. Something like that. Address it to the director's name. Dear Alan, I am interested in your architectural practice and then send the CV off.

Tom Rowntree: Yeah, and then a couple of things that I would say is that, say if you were to find a piece of work that you were interested in and you were drawn to, do some research into what practice they are, and then also find practice related to them, or similar practices, and that's also another way to find what kind of practice and what kind of work you would want to get into and what kind of practice they would want to do.

What kind of stuff they do, so it's a good way to find a practice that you really like and then look at related practices. That's one way I would say and also another thing is that if companies aren't advertising a job, don't let that stop you from applying and contacting people.

Because a lot of people think there's nothing being advertised. There's nothing [00:50:00] out there to apply for. I think it's super important to apply for. Jobs, even if they're not being advertised, just to get yourself out there. And even if they don't want anyone or even places that aren't hiring and they've said they're not hiring, still send your CV and your application out there to get some feedback or or just anything from anyone.

Cause any feedback at all, it would be amazing for anyone. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, just getting yourself out there. And once again, researching is just super important. I'm not going to sit here and tell you what's the right place for you. You have to go out there and research and find out for yourself what kind of work and what kind of environment and what kind of studio culture, et cetera you want to, Explore.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head that sometimes advert openings are not advertised on the website because and actually what you might do is you might send your CV and there is no job and then two days later they decide they need a part one and hey ho, look who's CV is sitting in the inbox for you to go.

They're like, oh, should we put that over here? You go, oh, hang [00:51:00] on Tom, let's just see, I've got a few here, maybe you want one or two here. And then suddenly you've got. You're in. Yeah. And they go we'll advertise the role if none of these are good. And then all you gotta do is go in, be a char self and they go, oh, this just gets on.

And I'm sure he'd be fine. He was at Leonard and I met him and he was nice. He was getting do that and suddenly, 'cause what you're supposed happen there is you've saved him a lot of time and stress.

.

By looking. And it was, and all this happened is because of what you said of you. You basically sent your CV when it was there.

Do you know what? EPR did them post a job on their website, part ones. And I remember I sent it off and they were like, Oh yeah, start looking for part ones. And there was loads. And I think I was, I remember there was three batches and I remember going into the interview talking about the last thing I said about it is that he was like, Oh yeah, I saw two people yesterday.

I'm definitely going to offer them. So you know. Yeah. There's not many spaces left, I remember thinking, no! He said that to you. Yeah, [00:52:00] but he said it in a nice way, he's Oh, I've had three people, and the thing is, I met two guys today, and I've got a few people tomorrow and he, but he said it in a way, and in my head I was like, I'm not gonna let that stop me.

You think, I'm like, I'm having that third space. It's there's no ifs or buts, and that's the thing, it's I joke about the M& M in the moment, but there's something about, When you're there and it's like you're almost like a sniper scope, you line up the opportunity and you're like, you

Tom Rowntree: know

Stephen Drew: what, I'm not letting it go.

And if you do, when you're in the zone to the point that we're on about, and it's even like this chat, I've got no notes and we're just here. When you're just here in the moment and you're going for it, then there's a feel about that in an interview. And I think that's what gets you the job.

Tom Rowntree: Awesome.

That's all the questions that I've got. I think that was a superb interview. Good discussion, because I know there's a lot of people out there who are struggling in finding positions and obviously your main thing is in recruitment and the Architecture [00:53:00] Social is finding places for part one and obviously providing information for your webinar, et cetera.

So I think that was a really informative discussion. So thanks. Thanks a lot for coming. For coming on, Stephen. Do you want to plug yourself at all?

Stephen Drew: Sure. So plug myself. Oh, wow. This is a new one. Let's talk about the social. There we go. Join www. architecturalsocial. com. So it's an open platform.

And the thing is, there's a lot of part ones and part twos looking for a job right now. And the thing is, we're a community. And so I help out there a little bit. But you know what? The community helps themselves. And when you're job looking, it's a bit lonely, it's a bit frustrating. So everyone's there.

It's helping each other out. And there's more than that. When someone gets a job, you celebrate together. When you get rejected, we'll all have a little, you can cry on my shoulder, we'll have a little tear. And that's what it's about. And that's what I've enjoyed. So I've learned a lot from it. But you can find me there.

You can also find me on LinkedIn. I do work at McDonald's company, [00:54:00] which is a great recruitment company. However, I'm probably going to be more useful to you in terms of recruitment in the future. And that's why we set up the social is to help yourself right now. I'm more than happy to talk about this.

You've got to do the first job in the industry and in the future, one day, hey, I might be finding people for your team or we might be talking about a more tailored approach on where you want to move. And that is a little bit more, that is a very tailored thing because once you work in industry in a few places, that changes over time.

Okay, plug over. Hey.

Tom Rowntree: Awesome. Thanks a lot, Stephen. Hey, no problem. Thank you for everyone that has watched or listened to this, the number one shooting podcast in the world. If you've got any questions, just drop me a message on Instagram, which is at TomRoseStudios or drop Stephen a question on his LinkedIn.

And if you've got any questions and you're watching this on YouTube, just drop down a comment down below. That'd be much, much appreciated. So yeah, thank you as always for watching and listening to the more shooting podcast in the world. See

you next [00:55:00] time.