The Confidence Gap: How It's Affecting Women’s Careers in Architecture .ft Ishwariya Rajamohan

The Confidence Gap: How It's Affecting Women’s Careers in Architecture .ft Ishwariya Rajamohan
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[00:00:00]

Stephen Drew: Hello, hello, hello, everyone. 20 seconds. We're going to be talking about something that's very important. Of course, this is an informative podcast. Cut the bow already too. 15 seconds. Hello everyone and welcome to this non live stream live stream special. Today I'm not gonna, I'll pretend [00:01:00] I'm with you right now, but what's important is I've got an awesome guest today and we're going to be talking about a tricky subject which affects us all. Some indirectly, but most importantly, some people experience these barriers in industry themselves and to.

To go through this topic and go through it all, I have the fantastic Aishu with me. Aishu, how are you, first of all? Are you okay?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: good. Thank you. Thanks, Stephen.

Stephen Drew: Great, good. Now, please, before we go into it, you want to tell us a little bit about yourself, first and foremost, about who you are, a little bit about your background, and then we can go from there.

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. I am now a coach in the hospital. I work in architecture and hospitality and generally male dominated industries and I support female leaders with building confidence to take the next steps in their career so that they can, so that we have a better. Industry that's more, that [00:02:00] has better gender representation and more women in senior leadership.

And my background is I originally was an architect. I changed careers to train as a pastry chef close to the last recession. And now I work as a coach. And a couple of years ago I didn't expect to be working with women when I trained as a coach three years ago, but. What happened was that women started approaching me with leadership issues and everyone started dropping into the conversation, their struggles with confidence.

And I saw this pattern first in hospitality and I thought, why not let me try this in architecture and I saw the same pattern and this is what I support women now with.

Stephen Drew: Okay. That makes sense. So the elephant in the room, the topic that we're talking about is how confidence is affecting the retention of women in architecture. People are leaving the industry. People might have left the industry, or maybe people aren't going into the industry. There is that saying of [00:03:00] architecture is an old white male boys club, allegedly.

And I might be in that graphic demographic one day, unfortunately but it's got that reputation for a reason, hasn't it? That I think that the perception of stockitects is wrong. Men in power and it's a manly industry, construction, all this stuff. When that's the perception, but the reality is very different, but maybe first of all, can you tell me, is that perception, is that anecdote what a lot of people experienced?

Do you think that's true in your opinion, that it is a male dominated industry, first and foremost? Yeah,

Ishwariya Rajamohan: When you ask this question that probably you don't expect to encounter this because I think now, at least when I think when I was studying and maybe I'm sure in the UK now most of the Students who study architecture are female, but once they enter the industry, they [00:04:00] encounter obstacles and barriers that definitely make them feel like, okay, they don't have a place yet, or they struggle to find their place or make, take up space, let's say, in the industry.

And I don't think there's a lot more awareness now of different aspects of it, of the different aspects, whether it's related to pay or work life balance or progression, career progression, but there's so many different aspects how people are being impacted. There's, I think with social media, we get to hear other stories.

So you're conscious of not just your situation, but then overall as an industry, how it works.

Stephen Drew: it's a shame. It's a shame. It absolutely happens. And there's two parts of this. If we set the scene now, so people in particular, women come into the industry, find these barriers as well. In your experience, what are the knock on effects of these barriers? [00:05:00] So maybe first of all, we can identify a little bit more of the barriers, but then.

From your experience, what, how do you find that affects people? Does it, is it something that is very impactful? Or is it something that people brush off as well? If I don't worry about it, that's just a, that's just nonsense that's not what it is when actually we have all this stuff in the industry.

Ishwariya Rajamohan: I think I'm going to answer your question, the second question first, because why I'm particularly concerned or really focusing, honing in on this topic is because I've been having a couple of conversations in the recent few months about, where the general gist is, if nothing changes, I will leave. I'm seeing how that is, it's like a, maybe a tipping point, I don't know, but it's not, it's been happening for a long time. Women have been leaving the industry at various stages, so it's not anything new, but then it's [00:06:00] encountering those obstacles perhaps day in, day out, and not seeing a lot change structurally or systemically within the that maybe makes them lose optimism.

To answer your first question, what are some of the barriers that I've, I can talk about what I've been working on, because probably the list is very long. I've been supporting women, particularly with building the confidence to ask for a promotion. Sometimes the second, sort of, second scenario, let's say, could be that they've asked and asked again, and the answer has always been no, or there has been a promise, yes, maybe one day, but Nothing has moved.

And so it's a mix of those two things. And then also, I think, as I mentioned, the lack of optimism about, okay, things don't seem to be very they don't seem to be very progressive in the industry. Yes, some things are changing, but then Not, yeah, within their own practices, maybe things are not moving as quickly as they would like, and I think maybe for the younger generation, if they have friends in other [00:07:00] industries for example, if you work in a startup, you might have, your friends who have title, very fancy titles quite early on, if there's a team of five, they often have chief people officer or whatever, they might be.

They might appear to be progressing quicker than in architecture, whereas in architecture, by the time you get your licensing, nothing much changes. You might go for part one, part two, part three, but nothing much changes. You might get more responsibilities. It might be lateral growth rather than

Stephen Drew: Yeah,

Ishwariya Rajamohan: I think some of those things are there.

I probably haven't named even, a fraction of what women encounter, but those are things I'll

Stephen Drew: yeah, no it's a shame. It's a massive shame. I've had, I've experienced some prejudice when I was working in architecture many years ago. Not many people were very out, as a gay man in architecture, you didn't really want to say anything back then, you were worried about that kind of stuff.

I've experienced some of that [00:08:00] before, but in recruitment, the main thing I'd noticed, especially with females practicing architects is say now when it comes to that point of thinking about having a family, there's this moral quandary of Oh my gosh, I'm so busy with my work. Oh, what do I do? I'm also want to plan a family.

I'm not too sure what to do. And I think that fear wasn't always unfounded as well, because actually. Especially pre pandemic, it was very hard for females in architecture to build a family because you've got to, you take time off to rest, give birth, all this stuff, right?

Maternity, very important, but then it was you almost punished before for going away and it was hard to get back in the industry. So you'd have all these amazing female architects who are very good, and they were struggling to get a job again, right? Or pandemic, they would. For example, need to spend a little bit of time, drop kids off in the [00:09:00] nursery or whatever.

That wasn't good. You've got to be in at nine o'clock. So there's, there was these extreme barriers before extreme, that would penalize female architects. And then maybe they, because of that, they would be behind in the salaries compared to their male counterparts as well. Do these sound familiar to the stories you've heard as well from before?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: absolutely. And it's not that women are not doing anything about it as well. They, a lot of women who are encountering this. Maybe I won't have flexibility when I start my family, they leave to start their own practices. So that is, maybe some of the statistics about women leaving, women are still in the industry, but then going into business for themselves.

Then also there are women who are not accepting promotions. So even if there are pathways for When to go into senior leadership, it's oh, I'm already having this very delicate balance that I don't, I'm struggling to maintain anymore. I can't anymore on my plate. And, I'm not sure I [00:10:00] can handle it.

So there's that aspect as well. So even brilliant women who might be put forward for promotion might not be ready or willing to Accepted. That is also there.

Stephen Drew: Do you think as well, so I know I'm conning in on this one scenario, but it does link to confidence, doesn't it? Because it was, there's that the lack of cons, confidence to ask this stuff. It's like on the theme of what you're saying, asking for promotion or that, another, for example, is, yeah you finally return to work and a bit after this.

Crazy battle to prove why you should come back and all this stuff. And then, maybe a certain person wouldn't feel confident, but I'm talking about those scenarios before the pandemic, I think luckily after the pandemic, there seems to be a little bit more flexibility across the board. However, is that a misconception also?

Do you find in your experience that there's still. These, tricky scenarios and prejudices that were [00:11:00] experienced before the pandemic are still there now, or do you think it's getting better, or is that completely wrong? Yeah,

Ishwariya Rajamohan: think that has changed as much. It is, you are seen as less of an asset if you are taking time off to start a family, or you might need more time when you are being given responsibilities of handling projects, you Maybe, I don't know, whether they see you as less dedicated if you need to take time, but also women struggle to ask.

They think, overthink, and think and overthink about asking for time off. Everything becomes a very big decision. Everything becomes a very big conversation. So lots of difficult conversations and that I think compounds every, throughout the day having those thoughts in your mind of have I, what, how do I say this?

How do I ask for time off again this week? How do I bring up that my child is sick? I'm sure that something, some change has been brought [00:12:00] about because women were allowed to work from home, but then there's also the other aspect of a lot of companies are getting their people back into work five days a week now, I don't think it's changed completely for the better, or I don't think the prejudices have changed for the better.

Stephen Drew: fair enough. And I am seeing that as well. There's, people were working three days a week. remotely. Now it's four. There's some companies working back to five. Here, myself we work remote and starting to come in and I can see the benefits for both. However, if someone needs to be flexible, maybe coming into work, it would be nice for that to happen.

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Yes, and when, I always try to say this, if you have to have the difficult conversation, as you said previously, you experienced prejudice as well, and you didn't have enough of maybe didn't see A lot of representation in leadership, people that you could look up to and see, okay, they've taken that path, so I don't have to feel like I don't belong.

But [00:13:00] also, when you advocate for yourself, you are paving the path for so many women after you that come after you. It might be difficult, but I always try to make them remember, yes, you are doing something that's really worthwhile, not just helping yourself, but it also helps other people that come after you.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and I think on that, because that's a really bit of a valuable advice. So we talked about a few of the problems, but it's clear that I'm thinking of one or two. You're saying there's exponentially more aspects to that and the confidence can get, eroded over time and you have to, Trying to build that up.

And that's partly what you do. And we will talk about the links and all that stuff, because you do coach in the rounded subject, which is really important. So we'll do all that in a second. Now, of course. In a full on session with someone, you can customize it. You can learn the scenarios. However, while we're here, maybe we could talk about one or two [00:14:00] tidbits of advice that you would give people to start going.

First of all, how do you even know if your confidence has gone down? Because, I haven't suffered depression years ago myself. When you're depressed, you don't necessarily know you're depressed, You don't know that, but maybe you start to think you do. First, so first of all, how do you begin on this process of building yourself back up and finding that self worth and getting that confidence to deal with all these scenarios we're talking about that could pop up?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: I think the very very clear indication is that you're probably starting yourself with everything you say, everything you have said, probably taking work home, in your mind, wondering, did I say the right thing on site? Did I Did I ask the right question in the email to the project manager, or, you could always doubt yourself where it really comes up, I don't think women would, my industry is not, coaching is not something that's really established in the industry, but [00:15:00] where they really approach it is when they want to make the next move in their career and they're feeling, okay, I've been in my comfort zone for a while, but I don't know how to go beyond, get out of it.

And maybe it's a big leap that they want to make, or, just a little next step in their career. But either it's on a day to day basis, as I said, they feel less sure of themselves, or it might be a big move when it really is. It becomes very clear to you, okay, I need to do something about this.

Stephen Drew: I think it's, I think it's very brave. First of all, always as well to. I think it's good to deal with these problems because I think when we're in them, I think it's very easy to say to someone, Oh, you need to do this. You need to do that. But it's very hard when it's yourself. And I always think the first part is accepting the scenario and then dealing with it is actually the best way to go.

Is there is there any. Practical bits of advice that [00:16:00] you'd offer someone to build up the confidence as well. So we just talked about there the problem, coming to terms with it, but is there any like little exercises people can do to build up their confidence? Is it talking about it? Is it some maybe writing journals or something?

Do you have any tidbits that you, that work could work for people?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: I think I definitely agree with what you say. Um, confidence is also having a long term approach. When you start your career, I always encourage, Coaches or when I teach a workshop I always encourage everyone to keep a little notebook of every kind of success that you have because when you have dips in confidence you can always look at that.

It's not one thing that someone says that makes you over a few weeks you feel maybe not so great about how you're doing and then you can take a look at all those achievements and not to discount small achievements because I think in society we value Or big things, I've won [00:17:00] this project, I've we won this tender, we won this, that.

It's just small things, even making people, making, I don't know, solving a little problem on your team, or making someone feel better, someone who's not going through a good time feel better. Even those things, soft skills are valuable because, Ultimately, that's important in a team and not to discount anything, any of your contributions to the team.

Anything that your clients might reflect to you, anything that any of the other stakeholders that you work with, and keep a list of all those things. What else can I say? I think something that I know I, this was something that I was not aware of. I never did this as well, is to be aware of how the game is played.

There's a lot to be said for building your networks, making connections early on in the industry and nurturing them. Because I think those people who are dominating the industry have that, right? That's always, men have always been able to, [00:18:00] build connections, build, the social capital and then move ahead.

And maybe we're not so conscious. I know I've coached women who have been so busy focused on building the technical skills for the job that they maybe, once they reach that stage of maybe being offered their leadership role, the promotion that is a leadership role they don't get considered because they're just like so focused on the technical.

They're not, they haven't been building the relationships and people don't see them naturally as a leader.

That point as well, I had a conversation at a networking event, maybe it was a year or 18 months ago with a man who at an engineering firm. And he was saying how with His wife is also an architect.

I think it might be that I can't remember, but for the first child, she took maternity leave. And for the second child, he took maternity leave and he was out for those few months. And he recognized how difficult it was to come back and to get back into the flow and to renew contacts. So it's [00:19:00] something that you talked about having a career break previously, but then it's being very intentional about it because we know we have to anticipate these things. These moments in our lives when you have to take time out, you will be out of touch, so how do you deal with that? So having a longer term plan and having that kind of focus so you never feel like you're left out or you're missing out on something. You feel part of it, but engage with it and also recognize that it's okay to take those breaks.

It's okay, it's not You know, the more, I think that's, there's also a confidence with that, being, trusting in your abilities and your capabilities that you can still come back to work and still offer value and, deliver great work when you're back.

Stephen Drew: There's so many facets, though, in architecture, isn't it, because you mentioned the technical bits right now, working out, perfecting the job and stuff, but then you're right, there is that whole social aspect as well, and [00:20:00] that network is really important. powerful and can really help. Thing I was thinking of as well, though, is so you get the technical, you get the network, but also the days to jobs.

So like actually going out on site in the, in in a site office and dealing with a bunch of, Blokes having builders tea. I can see that initially, that even that's quite a challenging environment as well, isn't it? Because it's not just people in the architecture practice, male and female there, you're dealing with construction, which is Typically men as well, on site doing this and that.

Do you have any practical advice for people in that front? Like, how does a female go into a female architect go into the room and feel like they're on the level peg and not be treated any other way? Do you have any advice on that to keep the confidence going?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: I think it's that grounding, being grounded in yourself, then it doesn't [00:21:00] matter what anyone says. I'm just making it sound very easy. It's not it's, Just a simple thing, the more grounded you are in yourself, the more you're able to just show up, and it doesn't matter what anyone says or how anyone treats you, you are still able to hold that center.

And then respond accordingly and I know it's maybe taking things personally, but one thing to understand is, yes, the culture is like that. It's not, I don't know when it's going to be, when it's going to be better, when things are going to change, but then recognizing it's also the culture, the systemic culture, it's not just you.

Not taking it personally, but recognizing, okay, what are the things that helps me feel grounded before I go into a meeting? And it's different for everyone, you might just take a few deep breaths, you might make sure that, I think generally women might prepare a little bit, be perhaps over prepared for meetings.

Even taking the time to make sure that you have everything with you, you arrive on time. Whatever your practice is for grounding yourself, maybe [00:22:00] that's the simplest thing that I can think of. It's, yeah, it's not generic advice for everyone, but then the simplest thing is what helps you feel grounded because that's when you can hold your center.

Every situation is easy to handle.

Stephen Drew: Very good advice. Hard to do, but very truthful and

Ishwariya Rajamohan: hard.

Stephen Drew: it is practice practicing, isn't it? And I think for anyone that it doesn't come straight away and it takes time. It's anything else. You have to work on that relationship with yourself, right?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Absolutely. As you said that, I just, the simplest thing is be really in touch with why you're doing what you do. That's the thing that really helps you ground yourself. And really, you remember why you're there. And even if nobody gives you a chance to speak at a meeting, you can always just, Put your hand up till someone recognizes, okay, there's somebody who wants to speak, it doesn't even have to be that you have to play the game.[00:23:00]

Sorry, I keep talking about playing the game, but you have to talk like they do. Maybe you don't have to be an extrovert or you don't have to be loud and very assertive at meetings, but even you can be yourself. But If you really want to get a point across, then nothing should stop you from at least just raising your hand.

And I think the most important thing is not just to have strategies that don't feel right for you. Whatever is your practice that feels good, aligned with you and who you are.

Stephen Drew: very good advice. What a pattern disruptor it would be to raise your hand. I think it, I quite like stuff like that because it puts, stops people in their tracks. And I think speaking about stopping people in their tracks, so we've talked a little bit about personal, building up that confidence and dealing with the issue.

The other end of the scale is. We've got the employees, we've been talking about that from perspective, but there's the employers as well. And BIM. I think it's [00:24:00] become, it's so important to embrace this stuff, but let's pretend now in architecture practice they're busy, they're maybe not dealing with all these issues.

Why do you think, in your opinion, is it so important that people start embracing these problems and retroactively fixing them? Is there any advantages for employers? In terms of how they can build their practice, their culture, how they treat people, do you think there's short term or medium long term games that you would say to them exists by treating people fairly, respectfully, both male, female, and anyone that identifies any other way too?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: I'm going to go back to specifically the coaching that I do. And what allowed me was that, if nothing changes, I will leave. The sentence that I keep hearing, it sounds like, to me, that there is this Giving up hope there's this lack of optimism that anything will change. And I was doing some research looking at some of the AJ100 practices, and then just going to their [00:25:00] people page and finding out, doing percentages, what different hierarchies, what's the percentage of women.

And I know different practices have different structures, but then there's a top people who are, maybe it's a board of all the partners, and then second level of senior directors, and the third level of associates, and fourth is everyone else just to make it very oversimplified. But then I noticed there was this senior, the second level, maybe senior directors or whatever they are called in different practices the percentage was a lot lower.

than of women was a lot lower than the next level associates and then of course the final pool which is everyone who is probably prepare preparing for their licensing or not is of course a majority were women in those categories and it's, it's more and more, it's becoming more and more aware Open, right?

People are publishing their gender pay gap results and there's more awareness of what the industry is like. There's this lack of hope that [00:26:00] anything will change. Maybe they're looking at their own situation and, oh, I don't see a lot of representation of women at the top that, second level or whatever hierarchy.

Yeah, there's probably nothing is going to change and that might be why this. Scenario is, I'm hearing women talk this way about not waiting to try anything. And Which is why I wanted to bring this topic to platforms like yours. And thank you very much for giving me the opportunity.

So this is something to be, to look at. That there is a lot of, people are thinking about their prospects. And it's not enough to just be so busy. And I think every time The whisper of a recession comes, the attention completely focused. I understand there are the priorities in business, but this is also a big cost when you, you probably know the data much, much better than me about how much it costs to recruit and then how much training someone costs.

Training, yes, [00:27:00] everyone has training, but then I think there must be a cost and there must be a figure that could be attached to how much it takes. For somebody to settle into your team, and then,

Stephen Drew: anecdotally, I don't know the numbers, we're at thousands of pounds and time as well, isn't it, finding someone else and to build up all that time they've had is, yeah, it's a lot. I think that when someone's at the point they're updating their CV, the ship's pretty much sailed in my experience, you can there is the small percentage that people stay, but if you don't change things, people will leave straight away.

And there's that conversation of, oh we'll change this and that. But we also have to be realistic. Normally, the bigger practice. They are the harder it takes, the longer it takes for things to change. But you are right. One of the two things I will add just quickly to that, just to further put your [00:28:00] point home, you mentioned looking at people's names and their pictures on the website.

Yes, you do. It's any employers out there, it's more and more becoming a topic of conversation. If it's all men on the board, or, or even we can go further down the demographics. But for the point of this. Talking male, female, they, them, people are going to notice if there's a balance in one way or another, and it'll stop people from applying.

And therefore, but you also, in a practice, you want diverse people there, really, don't you? From, and we're talking all different facets, different people, different backgrounds. Diversity is quite important. Yeah, I think that when people see that in 2024, it's quite off putting now. And you get less applicants.

You have to be multicultural, diverse, demographic on the board of every aspect, in my opinion, or you lose interest in the company,[00:29:00]

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Absolutely, if you're working on projects that are a target, that are supporting, people from any kind of minority background and you don't have enough people informing the design who have that, lived experience, then it's going to be very glaring, right? What are we doing? We don't, we're trying to assume how somebody from that I don't know, somebody from an ethnic minority background, somebody with a disability, somebody from the LGBTQ plus community, we're trying to assume how they would experience that space, but then when you have In a representation, you know that, okay, there are decision makers who are thinking about those lines, and our work is all about being able to empathize and maybe anticipating before people know their, those needs, or we needed this in a building.

That's what our genius is, to be able to anticipate maybe before they even knew they needed it. More empathy is, it's helped by having a diverse workforce. And decision makers.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, makes complete sense. While we [00:30:00] were speaking, I was also thinking as well, there's some really cool initiatives in architecture at the moment as well. One or two that I'm aware of, but especially for females in architecture. Do you, is there any that you recommend that people get involved with at the moment that are really cool?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: If I had a list, I would have named them all, but I'm really glad that there are, because when I was early on in my career, I didn't have those groups that I could connect with, people that I could connect with and start building my network. But there's, I know Women in Architecture, there's National Association of Women in Construction there's Women in Property, there's lots of groups, I think it's part W. Oh, I am

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, you

Ishwariya Rajamohan: a blank now. There's lots of them.

Stephen Drew: No, that's a good, that's a good start. The other one I know that's really good in, in London is NAWIC, which is N

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Yes, Nationalist yeah.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Cool. Great. Sorry. I call them, I call it

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Now I care.

Stephen Drew: I'd be, they're really cool gang. They've had [00:31:00] me before. And it's been, I've really enjoyed some of the evenings of listening to Some of the cool stuff in the community and also going to see people's projects and having a cheeky cocktail and stuff.

It's been it's been really cool. So there's that stuff then. Now, as we wind down I wanted to just quickly talk about yourself and the coaching. So I'm going to bring the link up here, but you want to tell us a little bit more about then what you're doing, what your initiative is at the moment and all that good stuff.

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Thank you. Thanks very much. As I explained previously, I coach female leaders in architecture, and the main thing is to help them take the next steps in their careers. Confidence I I think there are about four stages that women might go through or go through all of them where they are considering applying for a promotion or they, but they don't have feel confident about it.

And then the second stage might be preparing for that interview or preparing for the difficult conversation. The third stage [00:32:00] might be once they have the promotion dealing with the overwhelm and, really owning their leadership. And the fourth stage is really settling in and finding their own style of how to be a leader and then, finding their own way of leading a team and supporting the team.

So there's, it's not a, I don't think it's a one One Moment in Time, Promotions to One Moment in Time. It's more there's this whole journey that you go through, and I coach women one to one, and I also am starting to approach organizations and practices for to support their women, whether that's through coaching, or workshop, or my focus is always on helping women really, where they have lost confidence in helping them to really connect with their own power again, to really see what they have to offer.

Because I think you lose sight of that when you do, when you go through that spell of not feeling confident. So the focus is always on helping them be who they are rather than, this you [00:33:00] Google how to build your confidence, there'll be 10 steps. Let's say, do this, do that. But then I think it's more important to be you and, to be who you are and to be authentic rather than have to play a role or, be performative.

It's all about helping you connect with yourself. And the workshops I do are either on confidence itself and other topics like, building a leadership presence. But I. I look forward to working with more women. It's really exciting. It's a really rich topic for me because the more people I coach, I'm just seeing how, the breadth of this challenge and different aspects, and I really I really like it.

Meeting people and hearing, meeting women and hearing their stories and also seeing them transformed at the end. Sometimes during coaching session, you see when that light bulb goes off and you see how their energy changes completely. That there's a they seem lighter and they seem more sure of themselves.

I think that's the [00:34:00] real joy I get from coaching. And yeah.

Stephen Drew: That's the nice part. And, there's a lot of hard work that goes into it. And so for our audio listeners, what website what's your website address?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Sure, this is, we'll need a pen. name is not easy to pronounce, but it's Aishwarajmohan. com. I S H O R A J A M O H A N. com. And you can also find me on social media. I'm on LinkedIn

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. And I will put the website in the link. So any audio listeners, you can check it out there. Now, last thing before you go. Before you go, I normally like to flip it around and say, if there's, if you have a question or two that you'd like to ask me, it can be anything. I know it can be anything off the cuff.

It could be a curve ball. It could be about me working in the industry. It could be about what I do now on the social. It could be about recruitment. It could be about some of the things I've seen, some of the things I've seen other people [00:35:00] experience. Andy, you have any questions for me before I go?

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Maybe related to what, what both of us do supporting, we're both supporting women in their career journeys. And I would love to hear what advice, now you're probably closer to them in this, you're probably helping them at a stage closer to getting that job, and I'd love to hear if you have any thoughts from your experience of helping women on their CVs or find a job.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that, especially when it comes to confidence, it's, I do think that it does take a while to build up and if you. If you've, it depends. So there's a few different stages. I think if someone's returning to work, I think the most important thing is just to remember all the valuable stuff that you've done and actually that it's okay to have a family and come back to architecture and you have to almost get rid of that thing in the head that you almost think it's a negative because actually it's part of life.

It's life, and that's no problem. And actually try to remember that [00:36:00] In a weird way, you're doing wherever you join, you're going to be a massive net plus positive to the company that, and what better, I always feel, embrace it as a positive for the employer who's always trying to find out why someone's left, was, were you good there?

Were you good there? I think it's a massive, it makes complete sense if you say, Taking time out. I've built a lovely family. I'm looking forward to returning to work. Great. That's that's a good thing. So I think we worry as people, Oh, that's what he's seen as a negative. Oh, I've taken time out.

Actually, when you've got a very normal reason for it and you want to return. So it's taken, it's true. I think my advice is try not to immediately. I think as human beings, we always think the worst of ourselves, isn't it? You go Oh, I've been out of work for nine months. No, you've paused it, but you have 12 years of good experience before or changing jobs because let's say [00:37:00] that's, I keep using that scenario, but let's just say that you haven't enjoyed the way you've been treated in your current company, then I always like to think you give them a fair opportunity to address it, because sometimes, like you mentioned, people are running with projects, things do get missed.

Sometimes, especially now, I've learned of management. I'm not perfect. Other people are not perfect. If you bring up your concerns to management fairly, nicely, non confrontationally,

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: and they don't address it, Then you can leave and you go, you know what? I've said my piece. You're not prepared to listen to me.

I've done my thing. I'm going to look for elsewhere and you don't need to be disparaging, any next role in the interview. Sometimes there's some things you don't need to say. You could just say, I'm looking for a new opportunity. I will need a new I think it's time for me to look, I'm looking for a new, exciting challenge.

And I, and you can always say something like, I'm just looking for a great environment where I can just [00:38:00] get involved, get stuck in, I, that's important to me. And then you can flip around the question and go, do you believe that you have a culture which is truly inclusive? And then that, that is the Jedi interviewing technique is that over time you learn to start flipping the script.

It really doesn't come. Naturally, and I've been in many interviews where I've been, haven't done that at all, but over time, if you start, or if you start asking questions, you'd be amazed that people will answer as as another, just a generic good example that I always think is really powerful at the end of the interview when they say, have you any questions?

Yes, you have a few. And one of them is always what do you enjoy most about working here? Or, that's makes people think about all you can say to the person. What kind of role do you imagine me doing really well at this company? Practice and then they go, Oh, I could see you doing this and that.

So there's all that stuff, but you could build that into the problem that [00:39:00] you've had before. You go, I'm looking for an inclusive environment or, is that something that you is important to you here and then you can tell by their answer. Because if they go, oh there's lots of stuff going on.

We do architecture here. We try, we're busy. Then, it's going to, they're going to be a bit like that. Whereas if they go, do you know what? Yes, we've been improving this and that. It's really important to us. We get involved in all these events. It's a good sign. Bit of a ramble there, but hopefully that's a useful ramble or not.

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Super useful. Super useful. Yeah. Absolutely. I think the more people, the more that people ask this question, the, then you say, Oh, wow, everyone's asking us about our culture. Absolutely.

Stephen Drew: the interview is just as much for you as it is for them. And like the way we were talking about looking at a website, looking at the diversity, looking at them, all these are really telltale signs. And that's why I encourage people now, okay, if you can do a remote interview, Okay, do it, but really try to go in [00:40:00] person.

Okay, it's a bit more work. Okay, it's a bit more of a faff, but there's no better way to really experience in a company than going in their office. It's like an engineer. Ripping up the opening up the booths, and I don't know if you've ever had those doctors on your phone now. They're somewhat helpful, but then if you get a problem they could, they're like, we need to see you in person to really know what's going on.

And I think at the end of the day, it's the same. If you're not there in person, you don't know. And it can also look great on the website and be different, or maybe the website's old and things have changed. So

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Absolutely. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: best ways to go in for yourself and ask those questions. I think that's that's really important.

Sorry, that went off the tangent. Was

Ishwariya Rajamohan: No, absolutely. It's so useful and so much. I agree so much with it because your gut will tell you, you see yourself there in the place before you when you're in the place. You can see how you fit there.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. If you're interviewing at seven o'clock [00:41:00] and most of the people are there, then that's a sign that the culture is going to be like that. If you go into the office and it's it's not diverse or, there's a certain feel. It's probably going to be like that. And then you can just meet them and politely decline or put them in the back burner or whatever and then you've dodged a bullet but yeah no listen thank you so much

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Thank you, Stephen.

Stephen Drew: I really appreciate it thank you for everything and for you the listeners in the non live stream that we will be doing some live you But I didn't want to let you down.

We had this scheduled and this will go out. So just pretend that we are in the room and if you want to whirl me some abuse or some constructive feedback, then you can get in contact with me as well and I will pick it up. And the first person that messages me and says the word non live livestream. I don't know, I'll, I don't know, I'll send them something or they get a bonus or a blue peter badge, but thank you so much.

I'm going to end the live stream now. I hope everyone has a lovely day [00:42:00] and take care everyone. Bye bye

Ishwariya Rajamohan: Thank you. Thank you for watching. Bye.