What do you do after an Architecture Interview?

0006 - What do you do after an Architecture Interview?
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Jack Moran: [00:00:00] Hello. All right, we're live. Hi everyone. Happy Tuesday everyone. Hope everyone's doing well. Now today we've got quite an interesting topic to discuss, haven't we? So if we do a quick just rerun of what we've been doing in these sessions. So we've laid out how to do the perfect portfolio, the perfect CV, how to smash the interview.

We went through that in quite a bit of detail. And today we're going to talk about really interesting topics. So this is going to be the period following the interviews. So if you've got your, CVs out to 100 practices in London. You've had interviews with, let's say, 12 of them, and you've gone through all the interviews.

Next, we're going to be talking about that world after, the feedback right through to the offers and if there's any rejection, how to handle that. So yeah, I thought we'd just dive straight in. Stephen I think, let's say, we're, I'm in a situation where I've just had, say, five interviews.

I'm in their sort of post interview world. I've been told to[00:01:00]

revise though, didn't I? I sent, I got a hundred practices. I sent CVs out to all those practices and I got multiple interviews because of it. Now I'm in a situation where I'm You're up late at night thinking about if you've done well or not. You're, you're always going to be a bit anxious, aren't you?

So in terms of the feedback, I think that's the first bit we want to kick off with. We always tell people about calling people back up for feedback. So I want to dive in. So Stephen, how long do you think they should be leaving it? You've done your interviews. What's the sort of feedback timeframe?

Stephen Drew: Good question. So hopefully one of the things to get in at the end of the interview, if you can, and if you forget, it's not the end of the world, but you want to get in as something like. When can I hear back from you? So make the mental note in your head of that timeframe. So if you're the interviewer on Monday, they might say they want to get back to you at the end of the week.

They might say they want to get back to you at the end of the week. Make a note of that timeframe. And after the interview, what I would do is I would typically follow up a few days [00:02:00] after. So let's imagine it's a five days gap from the interview. To the deadline that they said, okay you, maybe you want to say a thank you note, not straight after the interview, because you could do that, but the thank you email, a thank you email can also be used as a tool to re engage.

It's a bit like on Facebook. Remember we had that nudge function where everyone was nudging each other. And if you didn't nudge someone back, they'd be like, Why do you nudge me on all this crazy stuff? You, what you need to think about is that the nudge was useless on Facebook. It had no purpose.

What a thank you can do in terms of contacting an employer. It's a little bit like a nudge. So imagine they're probably seeing one or two people after. Maybe, or you're the end one. Either way, they're going to be thinking about who should I hire? And what you want to do is get in the top of their heads, and one way to do that is to go, Dear Jack, it was great to see you last Friday.

I really enjoyed the company [00:03:00] and culture. And since then, I know we talked about modular residential. I got super excited. I've signed up to one or two events, and I've been following what the practice has done. I've seen you've done this on Tuesday, done that. Super excited to, Be in line with the practice and that's the kind of thing you wanna do.

You want to basically re jog their memory in a way that's not too pushy, and if they set a timeframe, you wanna be respectful on that timeframe. If so, if I say I'm gonna get back to you on a Friday, and on a Tuesday, you're like, Hey, Steve. Hey Steve. I. Dude you're you're being a little bit full on because I'm busy right now.

So you, you want to get, you want to get the balance. And so work within their timeframes and use one or two things like that as a technique. Reengage.

Will Ridgway: I would to add onto that or maybe cover overlap a little bit. So it's always, you must always find out when are they gonna get back to you?

[00:04:00] Ask right after the interview or even during the interview, when am I likely to hear feedback from this interview? 'cause that's pivotal in making sure that you don't become annoying because then. If you then called up on the Friday when they said they were going to get back to you, maybe it's late in the day, you've not heard anything, you can't give them a ring, realistically, because, that's when they said they'd get back to you, they haven't got back to you, it's near the end of the day, it's always worth giving them a call that way.

So I, I always, I'll always find that, because the thing is as well, they potentially have other people in line that they've got to interview, and so you don't want to call up in between or anything, particularly as well. They're currently interviewing someone because it's disruptive and it accidentally paints a bad picture of you because they, they associate, they put a negative label on you unconsciously.

So it's important to try and respect their time, the timeframe that they said, and then follow up with a call to say thank you. I'd really love to get feedback because all I've been thinking about is your [00:05:00] company, I've been thinking about the event, social events. Maybe just bring something back up that you talked about in the interview.

Did I leave such a good impression? I can't remember you following up with me. Did you? Now you chased me. Oh yeah, I think

Jack Moran: you were

Stephen Drew: the best.

Jack Moran: I definitely think guys, you know when it comes to that whole feedback situation, not that I can empathize with it too much, but I reckon that's what a lot of people have are quite anxious about.

You know the idea of calling up for feedback, but then scared because they'll come across as either too eager or that sort of annoyance thing. So I think it's quite good that we go into that. And say, for example, you do have an interview with someone and you just, the question doesn't get asked for whatever reason about the feedback when they can expect to hear back.

What I guess the obvious question would be how long would you guys give it before you actually actively went and, called them up?

Stephen Drew: There's a few techniques, Jack. You go, it's about thinking on your feet in this scenario because it's easily done, right? You're so in the moment.

You're in the moment. Again, we're Eminem. I don't know why we keep bringing back Eminem, but you're in the moment and you [00:06:00] lose yourself and you go so engrossed in the conversation that you actually forgot to ask. It happens. It really does. It's a bit like when you go to the party sometimes and you chat to someone and you're like, I don't remember their name.

I didn't ask. I asked and maybe I asked and I've forgotten and this is going to be so embarrassing. So these things happen all the time. There's ways around it. You could even just ring the receptionist and you can be like, I absolutely love the company. I met with one of the two of the directors.

I didn't ask when I, when. When they would get back to me, do you know if there's a particular time or can I ask? And what I would even do then is I'd either ask the receptionist and she might know. And if not you could be put through, the real ballsy way is to do what we talked about, like the thank you email.

You could even do it on the phone, Jack, or you could incorporate in the thank you email. It would be great to hear your thoughts. Is there a particular time deadline that you plan to get back to the candidates, including myself, question mark. [00:07:00] And this is one of the things that we always talk about, Jack and Will and I, which I was in it, where it's if you answer, really important in emails, and especially on the phone, to ask questions.

And what we do by nature, is we get conscious, because we think, oh, that's a bit, maybe is that a bit rude? And the answer is no, it's not rude to ask a question, it's a bit like on a date, will you go out with me? Okay. Yes or no? If you don't sheepishly go around the pylon and be like, Oh, this is very nice.

And that, sometimes when people go I think he was asking you out and then you could, they're like, really? Was he? Is that him asking me out? And that's the same thing. You've got to be the borderline. There's a difference between a very clear question and being somewhat direct in a friendly way than being pushy.

It's not about, so Jack, we met last Friday. Do you, when do you plan to get back to me? Do you have a decision yet? Yes. That's a bit too forward. But if I went, Hey Jack, really appreciate Moran Architects. I loved learning about all the crazy stuff that you've been up to and the amazing projects. And I just was thinking about [00:08:00] all weekend about what it'd be like to be in the office and being following the news and Is there a particular time frame that you plan to get back to me or is there a day that I can know about or do you think you can let me know why?

And, word it in that way, word it in a way, make it clear, but you want to ask a question at the end, not it was really good to meet you, so thank you for your time and opportunity, I'll go now, bye. Because it's what? You've just shut down your own phone call, you want to be like you could even be like, I hope it was a great interview, and is there a particular time and date you can get back to me by?

I like it. It's that kind of thing, and that I think makes a big difference.

Jack Moran: I think you have to put yourself out of your comfort zone, don't you? But no one's going to like calling up and being like, oh hey, I just had an interview, forgot to ask, but do you know when I can hear from?

I think that's, it's just getting over that comfort zone, isn't

Stephen Drew: it? And do you know what? It's really hard to do that first, because it's the thing of, we naturally like to [00:09:00] fill Space. And you know me, I can talk for whales and the thing, and the thing is, you gotta balance it up with talking with substance.

And sometimes you've gotta let there be silence. And it's a very scary thing to ask a question and pause for an answer. It's now that feels a bit like, oh, you're like, oh, what's the next point? Or, and it's like that, it's like the, it is like the the red dead standoff or something, isn't it?

It is like that moment where. Oh, here we go. I'm asking the question. I'm pulled for the gun. The thing is though, you've got to, and it goes back to, it's the same thing about asking for salaries and stuff. You've got to remember that actually salaries are starting date and asking difficult questions. In a professional manner, it is part of being a professional, and there's a big difference about asking for it in a nice way than asking for it in a bad way.

To say I think I'm worth 32, 000, so an offer of anything less is not that appealing to me. It's oh, alright. You just see what it is. But to go what do you think the [00:10:00] salary is for the role? And if they say the salary is 30, 000, you go, That's fantastic. I appreciate that. I was actually on 30, 000 for the last two years, and I do feel like my skill sets are for a lot of value.

I appreciate your different bands and brackets in the company. However, what about if I came at the salary, which is an increase for me, so I'm motivated at 32, 000, and if I work hard and prove my worth, we can discuss that salary against my performance. Is this something we can do? See the pause? I paused.

I was, it was like the moment and you got to do that sometimes. And I just feel like if you don't do that, and this is the thing of right now, it's going to be so much more comfortable to go for interviews and to let there be no feedback. There's going to be so much, or it's going to be so easy. And we were talking about it well in terms of our job, sometimes it's so easy to go, Oh, I don't want to deal with that conversation because it might be awkward, or maybe I could come across as [00:11:00] too pushy.

And so I'm going to leave it. And what happens is things change. And so in our job, it might be that an architect then meets another architecture practice and then is in a position where They're their priorities have changed, which is normal, and that's fine. Then sometimes you can go the other way, where a person can become too confused, and then they actually still want the company that they met at the start, but they've seen so much stuff now that they don't know what's going on.

And it's the same thing with interviewing. You can be like I was definitely thinking about higher will, now I'm not too sure, because I met Rachel, and I met this, and I met that, and you've got to, and then if you're not there in the foreground, and you're not Rooting for yourself in a little bit of a way and you're not making yourself at the forefront of their mind, you get lost because suddenly in their deliberation between Jack and Will, I've gone, Oh Jack sort of second interview, he was really good.

And then, but then at the time when I met you, Will, I thought you were number one. And it's that kind of thing of but then if Will started to ring me up and I'm like, Oh, do you know why? He was [00:12:00] so nice on the phone and I liked him chasing up and, Oh, do you know what? I'm thinking it would be good. And this is the kind of thing you got to do.

At the same time though, you can't push it too far because it's a delicate art form. And it is a bit like the date. You want to be a date as in, you got to make a good impression. No one likes someone too keen. No one likes anyone too pushy. But you also want to be able to feel like someone wants to be on a date.

You don't want to be with the wet flannel, and you're just there on the date like, Oh no, this is just taking forever. And then I think there's a lot of parallels between dating and jobs. Because if you think about it, and I always say, People want to work with people they get along with, and talented people, and it's the same with dating.

You want someone bright, you want someone that's interested in you and respectful, and culturally agrees and all fits well. And I watched a really good podcast, Hawkins Brown did a really good five minute, five top tips. So Will, I think you're right, we need to do five top tips, so we're going to do five top tips.

But I really liked Hawkins Brown one, and [00:13:00] one of them was basically He went through a few things. He went through passion, he went through interest, and he went through a culture, and that's what I'm talking about now is that he said that Hawkins Brown, he looks for people that are really excited to work them and culturally fit.

And when I say culturally, almost ideologies, right? Because it's even like us and the team. So at McDonald Company on the architecture team, there's an ebb and the flow. And when you get in the rhythm, it's fantastic. And to make that happen, you need people who are there for the same goals and enjoy working with each other and have a bit of banter right now.

And you wave a bow and you I get to annoy you two a little bit sometimes, but we have a bit of fun with it, and we could, look, see, I got you going, I caught your smile, Jack. But that's the thing, it's like that, you want people on the team who want to be there. And then I think that's the point.

I'm at McDonald company because I want to be there. You're the same. We're all the same, right? And that's the vibe you want to get in the [00:14:00] interview. And following up and asking professional questions, asking difficult things. Suggest that. And by suggesting that, that's what gets you the job. Because people hire first with emotion.

Jack's a fantastic guy. Do. And then with the facts. And he has the Revit. Or maybe somewhere around they go, I really like Jack, but you know what? Will, he might not be as you know, out going at first, sorry Will, at first, though you're very outgoing, but he has the Revit skill to backup. Yeah, that's how I feel about

Will Ridgway: him.

Okay. I would say as well, just to add on to it, I think sometimes you just Quite rarely, but it can still happen. Sometimes the company can string it out for a really long time. And so whilst, whilst it's still, there's still potentially could get back to you and therefore they're pulling you along.

It's probably best not, you don't want to reject anything, but what you want to do anyway, regardless after an interview is that you don't want to just rest back and be like that went really well. Company said they really liked [00:15:00] me. They're gonna get back to me later this week.

You don't want to just rest and put your feet up. You want to just keep doing what you've been doing for in your workplace because, for, that company could string you out for weeks. And then suddenly they could turn around and be like, sorry, we didn't win the project that we were hoping to win.

We can't hide now. So it's important to once you've done the interview, just keep applying, keep getting interviews because you can't rely on one company or even more than one company to take you on. You've got, even if you've got five interviews lined up, they could all end up being no's for whatever reason.

So it's important just to keep on having that conveyor belt so that you don't get in a position where you're back at square one again. Really

Stephen Drew: good point. And I've seen that happening now. There was someone on the social, and if you haven't checked out the architecturesocial. com, definitely go there.

They're really nice community people who are also looking. This is a supportive environment. And I remember there was one lady on there and she's super talented. She's you know what? I don't want to keep getting rejected. I'm going to give up. And I'm just thinking what? [00:16:00] Come on! And it's almost silly, but you know what?

We're in a comfortable environment. And we're all supportive. And my reaction is I should get my horn out, go come on, get, go, get going. What are you waiting for? Why are you like, why are you giving up after one interview? You're so talented and you do have to be out there. And let me tell you, you gotta go for it.

And if you don't go for it, yeah, like Will said, a project could change. And remember, it's not personal. It's always There can be so much choice and the thing is, it's like me, I went for 10 interviews and I got all, I think I got two offers and in part one, one offer was for 15 grand and I was almost going to take that and I went for an offer at 20, 000 at a practice, which Was AJ 100 and the one I didn't think I'd get that was the pipe dream and it was the last one.

And it was the one where I was thinking, do you know what? I'm not sure. And they got back to me the next day. And then I I did the opposite approach. I just went, thank you very much. Snap the hand off and went, I can't wait to join. [00:17:00] And I follow that with a big thank you. And that's the other thing as well, if you do get a job, make sure it's very clear also.

Do not accept a job offer and then not go and then go. Do not mess people around. That's the last thing you want to do. If you've got two offers or three offers to weigh up, it's better to say that you have those offers and that you plan to get back to them on a certain time frame. And if they can't wait, then they're probably going to tell you.

And that way it's fair. The last thing you want to do, and me and Will, we know this a lot, is to go there. Then not go there. Then say you want to go there. And then, because what happens is the whole relationship starts to erode. Because they start thinking, oh gosh, is this person playing with us?

Or is this person not a very good decision maker? And suddenly, You're then, all that hard work you've done, you're becoming the person going like, Oh, I don't know. And so you've got to, it's like in life, you've got to strong professionals, you make decisions and you can make the wrong ones sometimes.

And gosh knows I've made a [00:18:00] few wrong ones, right? The thing is though, You've got to live by it. And the thing is, there's no rush, there's no gun to your head with these scenarios of taking a job off the straightaway, you can actually take your time, you can do it up. Just be fair with the time frame that you go back to them.

And remember as well, if a company strings out getting back to you for weeks and weeks, they might have a legitimate reason. Completely like COVID right now. It's very temperamental. So you have to understand that because the project might come back on. If equally an architecture practice is being a little bit flaky with you, there's no point to get upset.

The last thing you want to do is write them or anything like that. Just think in your head. You know what? Maybe there are other better places out there, maybe, but and this is it because not everyone's unorganized And there's usually a lot of reasons why it's probably legit. But remember though, it's just as much your decision as it is theirs.

Jack Moran: I think it's it's a tough lesson to learn, isn't it? Rejection. I think, we make a lot of comparatives [00:19:00] between dating and interviews. I think even myself as well, I think I've had some interviews, where you've got not the best feedback, but it has been like a rejection. And no matter, how much you tell yourself you don't care, there is always that part of you that sort of wants to.

Sort of wrap up, do you know what I mean? And stop. That's why I liked what you were talking about as well. The conveyor belt sort of situation. You can't get off it because if you do, like it's easy to stay off it, isn't it? It's easy to get comfortable in this sort of world where you're just not applying for any jobs and you've got some I don't know, some weird ideology in your head that a job is going to come to you.

I think that's the big thing, but moving on in terms of the topics, I wanted to actually discuss, the offer itself. Yeah, so for those lucky enough to actually get the offer, most people will either get an offer when they, either through verbal communication from a recruiter, or they'll be contacted directly from the practice via email or telephone.

Aside from probably have a glass of champagne to celebrate, What, Stephen and Will, would you, how would you guys go about the [00:20:00] offer? Okay. So let's really dig into it from the moment you get it, to the moment of making your decision, let's break it down. Okay,

Stephen Drew: cool. What level? Let's pretend though, the focus on this is a little bit more on the graduates right now.

Okay. Cause when you go further in your career, everything's a lot more considered because basically you need to work out where you want to go. You need to think about what you, what steps you want to go. It's very clear as a part one, if you, where you want to go in the industry. And I think that you have to instantly, before you get an offer, you have to weigh up whether you want to work there based upon the actual, the feeling you got in the interview, as well as the way they've handled it after.

And if you think it's a fair offer, you weigh it up on whether it's work that you'd the kind of company that you're interested in, and then you basically make, you can make a decision. What is your thoughts? Where's Jack going? Is he hiding over there or [00:21:00] what?

Jack Moran: I

Stephen Drew: think you're

Jack Moran: having a bit of internet difficulty,

Will Ridgway: Steve.

Stephen Drew: Yeah,

Will Ridgway: you're all pixelating now.

Jack Moran: Let's go to

Stephen Drew: Will. Oh, am I pixelated?

Will Ridgway: Oh, yeah. Not me now. Oh,

Stephen Drew: on my screen, Jack's gone. Oh, no. Let's go to Will, and let's see

Will Ridgway: how will go about it. Yeah, it's, I agree with Stephen there, because that's what I was thinking. It's all one good getting an offer, but you've got to actually think, do I want to work there?

Because you could have come out of the interview and been like, actually, I really didn't like the office, the setup was wrong, the person I met was rude, I'm not really interested. If you don't want to work there, you don't have, just because you get an offer, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

You can decide to turn it down. And that's fine if if it's for a legitimate reason and when I say legitimate, I mean for something that's definitely not going to change once you get there. So for example, like the environment, the studio layout, the people, if they're there, it's going to make it very difficult to work and you're not going to enjoy it and then you're going to be looking for another job.

months later after joining. So it's important to work that out first. And if you are interested, then, all you need to [00:22:00] do is just say, yes, thank you. I would love to do so now there are obviously complications. to it. If you, for example, have other interviews lined up or you're waiting for feedback from someone else, then it becomes a bit more tricky for you because you're thinking I like this practice.

They've given me an offer. I have an interview with another practice, this AJ 100 practice that I'm really keen about. I'd love to see what they're about. And that's fine, I think, because what, but what you should do is a bit like what Stephen was saying earlier about being respectful about a timeline.

Maybe let them know, say. Thank you. Really happy that I've got this. I do have another interview with this company tomorrow. And I would like to see them as well, just to give me a better idea of what I'm looking for. It's so tricky though, isn't it?

Stephen Drew: It is really difficult. If you've got an interview the next, I think, do you know what?

The, if you've got an interview after an offer, I think, ooh, that's a tricky one. I don't know [00:23:00] if I would, if I was an employer and you said that your interview would have to meet an offer. I would assume you're not interested. So that's my first opinion. And we're allowed to have different opinions on this show, right?

That's why it's a debate. That's why, what I like about what you said, though, is you're on about timelines and you want to, what you're on about is transparency, which I think shows a lot of respect. So what I would do is if I had a few interviews early in the And then an offer came in early because sometimes it happens where one comes in and they go, we want you, da, and they're almost like, come on, you're going to join.

And you're thinking I'd like to hear back from fosters and partners or so and so there's a way to flip it around and say, look, so and Jack Moran, Architects, Super. I loved our interview and I really appreciate you coming back with with an offer straight away. The thing is, I've seen other practices and while I am inclined to take the offer, I need to know I'm doing it for the right reasons.

And I need to hear all the other [00:24:00] offers on the table so that it's not something I look back on and I think I've done it in haste. And therefore, I'm working for the wrong reasons. I want to know that I'm truly working at Jack Moran Partners to do the next big Moran building and be part of the team.

Therefore, the way I feel it's fair is that I plan to get back with everyone on Friday, and it's Tuesday today, you've rang me up for an offer, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to tell everyone else that's the situation, and I'm going to let them know the timeline. If they don't come back on the timeline, then then I know, and also, I might organically come back before.

But what I can do, is I can commit, I can come back to you on that date. Is that, and I'm thrilled with it. I just need to digest and go through this in a professional manner. Is that okay? I think that's, yeah,

Jack Moran: because you're, it's not like you're, it's all about the wording, isn't it? That's what I love about it.

It's you're putting the you're sympathizing with them saying, you do appreciate it as well, but you have to make the point known that you're not just there to take the first job that sort of [00:25:00] comes, to you. Because you think about it, a little bit of awkwardness at that moment is better than you say you're, you're an architect, you're a graduate part one.

You've always wanted to do heritage work and that's what you want to go in through for your architecture career. But due to complications and wanting a job, maybe financial or for whatever reason, you accept a job working for an architecture practice that only does affordable housing, and six weeks down the line, you realize that you've made a mistake.

You've then got the more awkward situation of having to Leave your employer, on such short notice as well as opposed to just, saying to them at the time, you want to carefully consider your career as well. And I like that point you were bringing up as well. Essentially, you can't make everyone like you, can you?

And you're not going to like everyone. It's a it's almost like having tunnel vision like that. You can't go into a practice just expecting to love it. You're going to meet people who you don't get on with. You're going to be interviewed by people who are probably somewhat nice. Not everyone's a nice person, but do not let, the small ambitions as well get in the way in front of your goals as well.

[00:26:00] But at the same time, you've got to recognize that getting a job during this time is hard, but even in normal. Without COVID and all the lockdown, it's still hard to get a job because you're always competing against however many other graduates. So I think, the big thing is all about making yourself stand out as well, but keep your, keep yourself in mind.

Don't be that person who jumps into the first thing they see six weeks down the line. They have to make an even more awkward conversation for themselves.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and do you know what as well? And the other thing to put in there is that sometimes I think, and I'm guilty of it, we're all guilty of it as well.

Sometimes you can really overthink a practice and an offer, and sometimes we can be too precious. And the worst set of things is that, obviously you've worked really hard, right? So you've worked really hard, you've got your first, and you've got a lot of stuff, and not everyone gets to work in Zaha Hadid or something, right?

And not everyone wants to work in Zaha Hadid. It's a fantastic architectural [00:27:00] practice, right? Acclaimed. There's loads of different types of architecture out there, and this is the thing of what I'm trying to get at is The idea of practice in your head and who you meet, it can be totally different.

So you can meet an architectural practice maybe which isn't as famous and can be really humble. You can learn a lot of experience from that, right? That gets you to the practice that you want to go to in the future. Or sometimes you can go work somewhere, like EPR where I work, right? They've always been well respected.

In recent years, though, it's gone up and up. It reminds me a bit when I went to Westminster and to get in there, you had to have, you could get ACC and now you can't get in unless you've got all A's and things change all the time and being there along the journey and just as much higher value you get out of it is really important.

So what I'm trying to say is sometimes a large architectural practice where you've got small responsibility you Can be not as useful as a place where you get hands on experience. At the same [00:28:00] time I worked in EPR, a very large practice, and I got given a lot of good responsibilities. So the thing is, especially when you're early on in your career, you can jump in.

And make sure, as long as it's somewhere that you want to work in some shape or form. Don't be too precious about whether you finish at 6. 30 or 5 or think about to start getting some experience to get on the ladder and then you can move up from there. And remember in your second or third job, when you're a part two or a part three, you have that experience to draw a new comparison.

And that's where, In terms of what our jobs and what we do, so in recruitment that's where it gets more complicated and I find it quite interesting is when you've got someone who's gone five to ten years in their career and they've made choices and they've worked in different aspects and then they're looking for something in the next step which is going to propel their career forward.

Okay, but When you're a part [00:29:00] one or a part two, maybe working somewhere which isn't technically famous it's still propelling your career forward. And remember, what you're doing is you're then getting something that you can get your hands into, and you can have an opinion on. Because until you've worked in an architectural practice, you don't necessarily have an opinion on it.

You have a perspective on it. Okay. You go the perspective, the perception, I should say, or perspective of this architectural practice is if you look at their website, they're award winning, they're all this stuff. But when you actually go there, it feels very different. And it's the same thing with another architectural practice.

It might not necessarily have all the bells and whistles, or they might not be well known. But you learn a lot. And that's the thing that when you're weighing up offers, it can be really consumed. It can be really difficult. And some of the other thing is like, someone asked me a question today of should I take [00:30:00] 20, 000 part one?

I don't know if 22 in my opinion is. How long is a piece of string? Salaries are so subjective. But they boil down to what you're worth. The thing is though, you have to start somewhere. And normally the first salary in terms of when you get a job as a part one, it'll normally be a bracket across the office.

It's very rare. You get a 500 pounds or a thousand pounds more than someone else who has the same level of experience. And it's the same thing that when you two gentlemen started two years ago in recruitment, you all had the same salary. You all had the same salary. You're exactly the same, right? And there's a few reasons for that, so that when you go down the pub, and you say how much you've got, and you go, Oh, I wonder, you've all got the same.

But also, when you haven't got that experience to begin with, You start out the same. So whether it's 20, 21, 22, don't get precious about the salary. Think about what it can offer [00:31:00] and think about if you want to work that and try not to overcomplicate it,

Will Ridgway: I think it's important to remember that salary is it can always change.

So for example, if it's slightly a little bit below what you're looking for, that can change. I think what's important when you're starting out is What can this practice give you for your future? And that's important because I've placed people at AJ100 practices when before that they were at a two man practice, doing smaller builds.

But because they had so much experience as a Part 2 or a newly qualified Part 3, it meant that they were, in terms of across the board, they're probably above their peers. Working at larger practices, where they had a little bit less responsibility. So it's important to find out what practice can set you up for the future, because the reality is the first practice you go to is probably not going to be the practice you stay with for the rest your life.

Some people do, but it's very rare. That's the case, and that's because things change. You might move locations and work for you, for example. [00:32:00] So it's important to find somewhere that sets you up for the future, that can give you as much experience as possible. And then salary, of course you want it to be good, but at the same time, you've got to be, got to make sure that you don't stop yourself from taking a really good opportunity because the salary is 1000 less than what you initially planned for.

It's got to be livable. It's about weighing up about what your priority is. And everyone has a big list of. Everything they want to do, like heritage, it's gotta be one walking distance from my home, part time, you're never going to hit all those points, find out what point is the main thing that you're looking for and try and hit that.

And then all the other ones are bonuses.

Stephen Drew: Yeah do you know what? Because we got that question and I'm tempted to answer it. Let's talk about your question at the moment, because you. It's that tricky thing of you fit, sometimes people can feel undervalued in terms of salaries and so forth. And the, the thing is with architecture, right?

It is a very unique job where you get to build buildings, make improvements. You [00:33:00] get to help students, you get to build schools. I grew up in a very bad school and we had a bad hospital. And to actually change stuff, you can. You can literally change the fabric of society, and it's the same with with residential.

So right now there's loads of modular stuff happening, there's loads of low affordable housing, right? And this is housing that can make a massive difference in people's lives. And this is the kind of thing where I'm on about, when you're weighing up an architectural practice, you should be thinking about, What do I want to do there?

And what do I want to achieve? And what is that company going to teach me that I'm going to learn? And what can I contribute there? And let me tell you, if you're thinking about the pound straight away, architecture is not for you. We all need money to survive. The thing is, though, money comes with experience over time.

And it is one of these things which is really tricky. And it is one of these things that, yes, of course, we all want to be valued. And we all want to have. Salaries that we have a [00:34:00] comfortable living. What you need to do though, is you need to remember of where you're at right now and what you want to do.

And my question is, if you're thinking about if a snubber career has 2, pound more than what you're on about, I would question whether or not you're interested or in love with what you do, or maybe you don't even know yet. So you need to give it time, but there is just more than just money. And this is what it comes down to an offer.

Do not make a decision just because of 1, 000 more. Think about the company. Cause let me tell you, if you're working long hours, that 1, 000 doesn't mean anything. And I know of lawyers and I know people who are so fascinated and jealous that architects get to build. Buildings, and even though it's a lower salary, they make a difference.

You can make a school that improves people's lives. It really is that simple. And you can save people's lives by making a hospital which is more efficient. Look what they [00:35:00] did with BBP did. They set up the whole thing, didn't they, down the road, where if it did go all up on the Richter scale, people wouldn't die.

That's pretty, pretty serious. And at the same time, though, you've got to remember that, and we can talk about this down the line and everything, that architecture was really important to me, and I absolutely love studying architecture. I did work in industry, and I found it really, in Richmond. When I was there, there were certain things I really liked doing though.

And this career, I could have never got. So Architecture, being an Architectural Recruitment Specialist, which I've done for the last six years the reason where that all comes from is working in practice. And that's the kind of lessons that I can bring on to the team. And that's the thing now that I, We can, us three, we all have completely different degrees, but they're all complimentary.

And it's my background combined with, Will's tenacity and Jack's philosophical aspects and all good. No, you're so stunts. I [00:36:00] couldn't keep a straight face. You're a super talented team, but this is the point. You need to be all different. Jack, you don't, look, You've got to take things out because look, a person with an architectural background typically doesn't make the best recruitment specialist.

And that's me. What it does do is it helps me understand who I'm talking to and I really care about matchmaking and getting the right person to the right practice. And that's why when someone asks me straight away about is the salary in architecture a lot better than other things? I just think it's a really wrong way of looking at it.

And then you'll probably, as you said, your opinion will change over time. You just got to give it a bit of time.

Will Ridgway: I

Stephen Drew: think

Will Ridgway: most people in most jobs regardless of profession, they always feel undervalued. You get a lot of people, particularly now, I think as well with the current situation where lots of people trying to get work at the supermarkets just to try and get a job because they just need something.

And obviously they feel [00:37:00] like they're a bit undervalued there. They do a lot of work. Same with Amazon, for example. You put a lot of work in, a lot of effort in, and sometimes it doesn't feel like it. And I think every job, every profession, you always feel undervalued because you always feel like you're worth more than you are.

But it's Look, you have to

Stephen Drew: prove yourself, don't you? You can't rock up to a company and be like, I am the best. 'cause if you say that to me, I'll go, are you, why? Tell me. And then you go, and then this is fine line. What you need to be is hungry and eager to learn. Let me tell you the stuff I've learned over time that you, when I went an architecture practice, I didn't know anything and.

I was just, it was just raw hunger and eagerness. And what you can't do, you've got to, what you've got to do is you've got to remember that if you're going somewhere, you might feel like you're worth 25. So you might feel like you're worth 22. They've got to spend a lot of time and energy into that. And so part of my job right now is that I am a manager and let me tell you, right?

So we were, we work hard as a team, [00:38:00] but there's an element of. So when you guys joined, maybe you didn't know everything and I impart that, but I have to go do with what I, you bring your energy to the table and your hungerness to learn. The thing is though, if you don't have that, I can't impart it, but I have the wisdom here to teach the wisdom.

There you go. I feel like Gandalf the Great now, but I have the wisdom or what I mean is that I am all for in teaching someone my thoughts and things. If they're open minded but you need to bring that. And what you can't do is until you've done I've hired people that say, Hey, I know everything.

And I think you too can think of a few people I'm on about, Hey, I can do it all. And then when it comes to the crunch, it's not the case. And so you've got to be really careful not to overset your value because your value that you're on about is. Future potential, and I agree, you might be worth 100, 000 in the future, but right now though, you've got to build that up.

So there's that [00:39:00] point of being humble, because I don't think you can't go in a bull in a china shop and think that you, it's good that you have your own value. You've got to be, what you've got to remember is that you've got to be given the opportunity to prove yourself. And let me tell you, when you're in a company, and if you go above and beyond.

A good employer, they'll know it, and they should reflect your value, and if not, you can bring that up, but don't shoot yourself out of the opportunity. Don't cross it out until you've got there.

Jack Moran: Yes,

Stephen Drew: and

Jack Moran: Just going on to one of the questions

Stephen Drew: we've had. There you go I got all excited there. Sorry Jack, my internet

Jack Moran: connection's all going.

Just coming in from Benjamin, he's asking how how do you deal with a speculative interview? So how would you follow up that? Good question actually, because most interviews are going to come about from them, directly asking you in for an interview. But From a speculative angle, do you think there's any different precautions that you need to take, Stephen, because [00:40:00] it's on a different foundation, isn't it?

What do we

Stephen Drew: mean by speculative in it, Neil?

Jack Moran: I imagine, what I can imagine is perhaps they've, either they've brought him in there might not be, a concrete opportunity there. Oh okay. They might be speculating as to whether or not said person would be

Stephen Drew: a good fit. Everything's speculative in life.

It's I think getting in the door is half of it. And when you're in the door, in the interview, you make the moment and it's the same thing after I would treat a speculative interview as an interview. Cause the reality is, and it's the same thing in recruitment. So what I do is that if I see potential and if there's some level of it you basically, you support that potential because they're more of an asset to you in the long run than.

saying you can't. So I'm always inclined to to, if you see talent, to make something around it. And that's tends to be what a speculative interview is. The truth is that it is sometimes maybe a project for us for the thing is if you smash the speculative interview, they're going to remember you. And there's times that we've seen it in [00:41:00] terms of what we do, where when a project comes back on, they'll hire someone.

Do not think that it's a weaker interview. Do not do not underestimate the power of speculative. And there's sometimes you go for an interview and they don't know this particular team. which you can go on and you could go on a few teams. Sometimes you go back to an interview and that's the thing as well with this is that sometimes you have one interview and you could get called in again.

I had it with one of the companies we work with where they interview one of our kind of one of our architects that we know and it wasn't right for that team but they invite them back the next day to talk to another team leader. So that can happen as well. It could be that Ben You meet the main director and then he goes and thinks you might be better suited for another team.

Because that's the other thing as well. Employers a good employer will think about what the company and see the value on it. So they might see your value in the company and somewhere else, let's put it that way. So they might go, Oh it'll be good in another team in the office. [00:42:00] And so how do you deal with a speculative interview?

I would treat it the same and the follow up, I would do exactly the same.

Jack Moran: Excellent. I think I like that thing as well. When you've got to remember, even if it's speculative, just because a practice isn't hiring, it doesn't mean they won't hire. If it's the right person, like Stephen said, if it's a good person, if they, if an affordable housing architecture practice, find someone who is a whiz with Revit, and can really make a strong addition to the team, the likelihood is they're going to create something around that person.

Because that person's put in the work, they're tenacious enough, they've gone about all the right way. And so an opportunity can be created. So just coming to the sort of last chapter of this seminar, I think we're going to go into the bit of the more negative side now. Okay. So we're going to be negative.

Yeah. We'll be talking about dealing with rejection. This is something we'll actually touched on earlier with the analogy about the conveyor belt. And I think, the good. The good thing about rejection is it's your [00:43:00] opportunity to really pick out the faults in where you went wrong.

And so the first thing we talked about feedback in the first part of this. Now, if it's a rejection, I think personally for me, that's absolutely fine. But what you want to do is display a mature attitude towards a person who's giving you that rejection. Reason being is because if someone calls you up and says, Oh, we're really sorry.

You thought I had a really strong interview, but we decided to go from someone else. If you start calling him every curse word under the sun, that is going to be a short conversation and you're going to gain nothing from the interview. However, if you flip it on its head to a more optimistic approach, and if Stephen called me up and said, you haven't got a job, I'd say, Stephen, I won't lie, that's sad news for me.

However, I really appreciate you taking the time to interview me. Just while I've got you on the phone. Do you have 30 seconds to tell me if there's anything you need to do that I could have done better. If there's anything missing on my CV or my portfolio purely to aid me going forward for the search.

What that's going to do is show them that you do have a mature attitude towards your career and you're actually serious [00:44:00] about improving yourself to get into an architecture practice. Like Stephen said, the same way with the the offers, handling them, how you do it, sympathize with them, understand, be mature about it, and look for some sort of positive reinforcement from it.

Find out what you could have done better. There's nothing wrong with hearing a bit of criticism, if it means that three months down the line, you find the practice that you do want, and you end up in there. What do you think, guys?

Stephen Drew: I agree. Constructive criticism is valuable. The other thing I would add, Jack, is that the real Impressive thing to do as well is to keep in contact.

You can always contact them in six months time as well. That, no one thinks about that, but why not, right? Go, Jack, we met last year. I had a really fantastic interview. I just wanted to double check and let you and touch base to see where you're at as a business and whether or not we can catch up.

That's what happens at my level. That's how people get jobs and you won't believe, especially people down the line in your careers, anyone contracting or anything like that. It's all about who you know. And when you've met [00:45:00] someone that are positive in it, even if they said no at that time, remember it can be because of the project.

It can be because of one or two things. It doesn't necessarily mean it's because of your ability. So get in touch. Really helps. Sorry. I cut you off there. What were you going to say, mate?

Will Ridgway: Yeah, I think I'll give you an example why it's so important to make sure that you leave with a mature attitude because then that's the last impression that they get.

Now, the reason why that's important is that I've had clients call me up and say, Do you remember the person that we interviewed six months ago? I have a job that'd be perfect for them. Do you think it'd be possible if you can get in contact with them? And that's the reason why, because they can, you can always, just cause you get the job now doesn't mean you're never going to work that company again.

That's why it's important to leave with a really good good impression, but it's important to get that constructive feedback because, you don't want to wait for them to come back in six months time or a year's time. You want to, you do want to make sure that your search is still still useful now and safe.

Get that feedback off them, be really polite, very [00:46:00] thankful and keep that door open and then use that feedback to help you with your search going forwards. And to be honest, it might be, there could always be someone, there could always be someone that was just more suited for the role because, for example, if you had a senior living scheme, maybe they had a bit of experience as a part one on senior living schemes, whereas you'd be entering into new.

There's not much you can do about that. And that's just the way it is really. Sometimes it's feedback that might just be something that you might not be able to even add to interviews. Maybe you did the interview well, and then in a way that ends up being good feedback for you, because then you know you did everything right.

It was just, Unfortunately, there was someone else who just had just a slight bit more experience than you, that picked you at the line. That's why it's important to, even then, that turns into positive feedback, doesn't it, for an interview, despite being rejected. And so you just use that for your next interviews going forward.

But yeah, I don't have much more to add to that.

Stephen Drew: No, it's fine. I think I like Jack's [00:47:00] point of, the thing is, remember, rejection doesn't feel nice. Okay. And it's normal. And it goes back. I need that. Put that song in the background, when the breakup song and you Oh, do you know what?

I'm never going to make it as an architect. You've got to pick yourself up. Cause when you own the conveyor belt, what you own about is. I know what you mean. You're not on about chugging change. What you're on about is that you're on about this production or methodology that gets you along, that gets you, it's the efficiency.

It's like the whole thing of the Ford Focus, that whole, the automization of the car and everything in sync and keeping going along is what gets you the job. And I think you're right, Jack and Will, where you're saying that if you get hung up on one company, it stops. And if you don't ask for feedback less.

And if you don't chase up with things, the process gets longer. So all the things that we're talking about to summarize is stuff to keep things moving along or keep you getting new opportunities or for you for an offer to come in. So then you can keep moving to the next step. 'cause one of the things for what I was [00:48:00] thinking, the next one could be actually guys, is now we talk about this, is that you almost feel that now you've got a job.

You're like, whew, done. So seeing that, let's say Jack accepts and he joins McDonald Company Architecture team. He knows he's going to be in for a fantastic time, but we're going to go wind the clock back. And what is that maybe we can talk about preparing yourself to get to the job when going into the job.

Because it is, it's a bit like going to school for the first time. I was like, I'm really nervous, I've got to work, I've just got to go on. And then there's also a few things you can do to really actually boost yourself a lot. A few things, we can talk about getting software, getting the right thing, and actually how to make an impression in the office, how to get used to it.

And if you've not done it already, I think that might be really useful. What about handing your notes in as well? Yeah yeah, we'll do that down the line. Maybe that'll be like episode 20, because we've still got We've got 15 episodes of joyous, amazing jobs, and then, and we'll finish it with how to get fired.

No never get out of your pipe. [00:49:00] Hey, I'll tell you what though, I think you might be onto something with maybe how to deal with stuff happening like coronavirus and redundancies, because I've been there before, and let me tell you, it doesn't matter how good you are, if sometimes if for instance, an airport gets cancelled because flights have stopped going because of a virus.

Worldwide pandemic, you might be put on notice and it's not because of your ability. It's because the airport is not being built anymore. So we can talk about stuff like that as well. But all right, great. I've had a, I've had a really good time. And so we're all on architecturesocial. com. We're also at McDonald company.

I am back to work as well. So I will be posting roles and we all work in them together. All right. Now. And if you, I will keep you updated on roles like that. And if you have any ideas for the social, let me know. Again, it goes back to the thing of, I love the interaction here and I love the questions.

And I know, I was, I highlighted a few, but you know what? We've got to challenge each other sometimes, right? Because that's what makes us better. [00:50:00] And I like the fact that we all ask the same questions. Questions. And I like the fact that you ask tough questions and we can have those discourses. And that is the point about the social and that's so awesome.

That's what I want to make me shake my bell, but I've done too much bell shaking. Maybe a little. Let's all keep talking. That's how we get successful. But do you know what? It's true. I think the more people on that talk with each other and the more people that get involved and the more people that ask discourse and challenge each other and pick each other up when you have rejection and celebrate each other's success.

That's a big one because it's so easy to be like he got a job. I think I'm better than no, you should be like, well done. And do you know what? Will, how did you get a job? Can you give me some tips? And it's that thing about, The social and that aspect about if we all did that and we start collaborating, then in terms of Jack's feedback factory, we're going like 10, 10, 100 million miles an hour.

And if you shut yourself in a [00:51:00] box in a little Oh, I'll wait to see if they come back to me, but I don't want to ask in case I'm worried. Then you just never find out. It's what's it called? What's that saying? Head in the sand or in, just don't want to know. Head in the sand?

Burying your head in

Jack Moran: the sand.

Stephen Drew: Burying your head in the sand. Yeah, it's just if you do that, you'll never find out. And sometimes, remember, feedback is constructive. And if you ask for constructive feedback, then that's a very delicate way of saying, can you give me tips on what I need to improve?

Great. Pretty good. What's constructive feedback for me? Not too many balance or was there enough balance? Too

Will Ridgway: much

Stephen Drew: yapping. That's what I do. Sorry. All right. Great. Thanks everyone for

Jack Moran: joining us this

Stephen Drew: week. Enjoy the rest of your week. All right. Take care guys. Bye bye.