What is Heritage and Conservation, Ft. Jonathan Goode at Le Lay Architects

What is Heritage and Conservation Architecture_ Ft_ Jonathan Goode
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. It's old meets new. I know what you're thinking. That building you're in, couldn't it be better? You're an architect, you probably had that idea. We're going to learn how to do it from someone that's done it. That's right. It's not just all about knocking up glass houses. I wouldn't mind a glass house.

But anyways, old meets new. 18 seconds.

Hello everyone. And welcome to this live stream special. We are here. Take a minute out of your day. Put away that Pret sandwich. Look around [00:01:00] the city you're in. There's going to be existing buildings. There's going to be old ones. There's going to be some new ones being made, but we are in this existing fabric where there's a lot of beautiful stuff already.

So I wanted today to talk about. Old meets new. What is conservation architecture? What is heritage architecture? And should we be thinking more about this? And on that note, what better way to learn more about it than to speak to an architect, a practicing architect, who actually does it? Because I'm out of the loop.

But on that note, I have the amazing Jonathan, oh, and this side, Jonathan Goode from Lillet Architects. How are you, Jonathan? Are you okay?

Jonathan Goode: I'm good, thanks very much, Stephen. Yes, good to

Stephen Drew: Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. I know you've, you're basically in a construction site. Like you say they're changing the old to newer stuff, but we're gonna, we're gonna march on through.

I appreciate you here. But Jonathan, while we met at an event, people [00:02:00] might not have met you before, and I'd love it if you could just quickly tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we'll go on to your company in a little bit too.

Jonathan Goode: Yeah, hi so I'm an architect in small practice. Focusing on heritage primarily I've been working in London for 20 years and live up in Crystal Palace, which is a lovely part of South London. I encourage anybody to visit that. And yeah, I get involved in a lot of things in terms of voluntary work trusteeships with heritage sites.

I live and breathe it through and through. I'm also very interested in the arts involved in Artist practice as well, which I try to say through my work.

Stephen Drew: well done. It's beautiful stuff. Now you're in Crystal Palace, which is beautiful. That's where the Crystal Palace came from. I'm in Lewisham. Not so many buildings worthy of saving there, Jonathan. Dare I say myself in Lewisham. I'm sure there's a few chestnuts though, but that's great. I'm going to bring up your website now, and you can have a look at some of the projects you've done.

But so let's [00:03:00] see it here. So we have got here now, your beautiful projects, all the stuff. Yeah. Give us a, give us an example then of the kind of projects that you typically work on in your studio, Jonathan.

Jonathan Goode: We do a lot of work on prime residential projects, and you can see some of those in the picture there. So we're might say a local practice to Chelsea and Westminster and Kensington. So a lot of our projects are based around. That's one in particular on Ponce Street. So we're dealing with buildings which are Georgian, Victorian, Edwardian, even modern buildings, looking to refit and refurbish them for our clients.

So bringing their identity into those buildings and at the same time negotiating with the needs of heritage, the repairs that are needed, the conservation, everything that is needed past the planning department.

Stephen Drew: How did you get into this, Jonathan? Did you, when you were studying, did you make? Dude, were you enjoying this kind of [00:04:00] buildings or did, and you thought, you know what, I need to look at all these beautiful projects and how I can restore, refurbish them. Or did you just fall into it as you started practicing architecture?

Jonathan Goode: I think it's the opposite. I've not managed to escape. It's, I tried when I came up to London to escape during heritage and conservation. It failed. I ended up continuing, being drawn into it even more. It comes from when I was a child, my, my father would do projects around the home.

We, we lived in a number of terrace houses, which he would develop and do up. He was fascinated with stately homes. When anything was on the market, we would, He would take me and show me around these stately homes and I always had that sort of musty smell of decay, but I was drawn into it there.

And then at university, it was always part of my university sort of studio designs. I enjoyed the projects that were dealing with existing buildings. I was fascinated about the history of architecture, so I do history projects around architects and around buildings. And it's carried [00:05:00] through. For over 30 years, as you say, I've not managed to escape it yet.

And I live in a Victorian house and I'm doing up on my own as well. So I go home at the weekend. I'm doing DIY. I was doing some plastering at the weekend and yeah, I have to try things out as well.

Stephen Drew: Fair enough. You got no excuses now. If it doesn't work you're the architect, Jonathan. The buck stops with you, but also probably the most critical client is yourself, right? I would imagine. I can.

Jonathan Goode: certainly the most critical or next to the most critical client.

Stephen Drew: I love it. Okay. So maybe what I know when we were talking before, there was one or two projects you were particularly proud of. And while we got this amazing mix of projects, I think we were just looking at this beautiful project. A lovely house that one day I'd love to live in such an environment.

However, we talked as well. I want to bring up the school. Can you tell me about that as well? Cause I love it. We've got residential, but also places where people work, learn. Please tell me all about this project in Chelsea. I'd love to know.

Jonathan Goode: mean, this was a fabulous project working for a [00:06:00] lovely client, a family that run a an independent school in Chelsea. They've been there for many years, and if you've been to Chelsea, you might recognize the school uniforms of the children as they snake past. But this particular building had a long history.

It was a fascinating building. It was when the school bought it, it had just been closed as a chapel. It had been a Welsh chapel for over 100 years. Some quite notable people had worshipped there over time. But before that, it was It's a public bath, where people would go to wash and to bathe and to clean themselves.

And then it got converted in the Victorian period to a chapel, and then the school were looking to reuse that building for their own educational purposes. Primarily as a hall building for assemblies, but also for some classrooms and support facilities as well, mixed use. And it was in quite a poor condition that the water got in through the roof and it was in, seeped into the walls.

Everything was quite damp and bones of decay. The outside was quite disorganized after a number of years of adaptation. So we [00:07:00] had to make, open the building up, find its sort of inherent character, draw that back out refurbish it, the spaces for educational use, and then reorganize the front to make it much, again, much, much more part of the street and much more accessible.

As you can see it's a half a story above this, the street level. So there were some access issues that we had to try and resolve as well. So a fascinating project in terms of the history, in terms of the technical elements of it and the conservation side of it, and a really nice client as well.

Stephen Drew: Cause one of the things I wanted to ask, and if it's a silly question, forgive me, a new building, there's nothing there, you're building it from the ground up and that has challenges as well. But when something's being used, do you often get projects where they're currently being used by the client or currently in one form and then you've got to convert them as well?

How does that happen? Do people got to go offsite or how does it all happen when you're using a building that's already being used and upgrading it?

Jonathan Goode: Most of the projects we [00:08:00] work on are quite in depth. Particularly when we're working on residential projects, we certainly do encourage our clients to move out. And that can be for quite some period of time. So it can be up to a year that they have to find alternative accommodation. One project I finished recently.

For, was for homes, the clients had lived in that home for over 20 years. They were looking to retirement and wanted to, refurbish the home again. They certainly had to move out for that one because it was quite an in depth project. Often go back to the sort of the structure of the building and then build everything back into that space.

Sometimes with some clients you're only doing a part of the space and then yeah it's, you have to be very careful about their program, particularly with school, when those works are done, and what the access is, and yes, try and piece those together in a way that can still work.

Stephen Drew: yeah. I imagine you talk then about peeling away the building, right? And I always wonder sometimes when you peel things away. So I'm sure you can get sometimes pleasant surprises [00:09:00] and sometimes not so pleasant surprises or hidden things, problems, and all that stuff. Do you have a few experiences like that where you've just opened the project up and gone, Oh my gosh what the.

Jonathan Goode: Nearly on all projects that we work on, there will be some sort of structural surprise. The residential project I worked on recently we dug up the concrete floors and we found that one of the brick partition walls was, had nothing supporting it from underneath it. There was a, an air gap of about a 10 centimetres below the wall.

It's quite common that we find problems. Problems of dampness where you uncover things, problems with drainage. You find nice surprises in that school building. We found over one of the flat lintel arches, there's actually the original timber formwork that was supporting, see, supporting a, an arch, brick arch over the top of it.

All of that had been covered over for over 150 years. But we peeled it back and we could see it, and we covered it over again and left it there, but it's so fascinating historical surprises about the history of construction, which is as much interest as the [00:10:00] actual history of the building itself.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it is amazing. What's your view in terms of your approach then, Jonathan? It feels like you try to keep as much of the existing character as possible, while also meeting the brief, of the new building or what have you. Is that your view, that you try to preserve as much as possible?

Or, cause I see some projects where it's quite a radical change in the repurpose. What's your thoughts on being sensitive in that stuff?

Jonathan Goode: I think what you said there is being sensitive. From our point of view, historical buildings do have to adapt. They have to live and survive in, in sort of current economics sort of environment. They have to meet certain needs that we have now. We can talk about those in terms of climate change and accessibility and things like that.

But at the end of the day, what we want to preserve is what's really important. We Take a sensitive approach, but behind that is a full understanding of the building, full understanding of the building's history, full understanding of the fabric of the building, understanding what's important about it, understanding what people [00:11:00] respond to.

And at the same time, sometimes where a building has been damaged, trying to find its soul, it's the actual kernel of its interest in bringing that back as well. So sometimes we add things in which sort of helps us to revive those stories of the building. But yeah, it's always sensitive.

Stephen Drew: okay, cool. So it's the sensitivity. Now the other word I want to talk about is that comes to mind is restrictions or that are in place. So I was looking just now at the beautiful Will It building in Chelsea and I was reading it while we were talking and I'm paying attention however, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna look at the slide coming.

And it's is an important grade two listed building and the first thing I think of when we see that is, is amazing. Grade two, we preserve the past. However, as an architect, grade two, you've got to be really careful what you can and can't do, Jonathan. How do you begin to navigate that with all those restrictions and stuff?

Jonathan Goode: A sort of primary understanding most about the building, understanding what you're working with. [00:12:00] And particularly, it's history. So we do a lot of work looking back into the history of the building, understanding why it was built, how it had been used over that period of time, and that means that we then understand those areas which are adaptable and which those areas that have to be Preserve.

And under the listed building, legislation, any changes have to have consent. So not necessarily dangers changes which might in some way cause damage to the building, but those things which might add to the building as well still need consent. So it's understanding the past, understanding what the planners might be expecting, what they're likely to allow, and understand where their other policies are, because often heritage is a balance between the conservation of the building.

and the balance with other policies they have to do with housing, accessibility, and climate change, for example.

Stephen Drew: Yeah the results when you get there are amazing, and I think it's important [00:13:00] that is in place. I remember when I was in the industry, Jonathan, I did work on a grade two list in building as well, and I had to go around and measure things and be really careful. And where I'm going with this is one of my big tasks!

Was going around measuring all these buildings. It's not like it's an easy thing. Like plonking this into a Revit model, like a new builder and all this stuff. So how does one even go about, maybe you start getting a project on, do you have to measure it up, draw everything, do a massive survey, understand the whole thing first and get it all going?

How do you start?

Jonathan Goode: Of the project. I do a lot of work with churches, most of which are over 100 years old, some which are over a thousand years old. A lot of those churches don't have plans. No one's Drawing a plan since it was built and quite often they don't have the money to go out and do a full measured survey.

So we work with what we've got. We might sketch something up. Just enough for us to do our work, particularly if it's a bit of Repair or conservation work. We just need enough to explain the work we're doing. Other projects we will have [00:14:00] to measure and draw the building, but we're much used, we're moving much more into the Use of photography and modeling in that process as well.

I think there's so many more tools that we can use now in terms of documenting buildings and describing buildings. Not just the drawings.

Stephen Drew: I got you. I think it's very fascinating. And I'm just looking at this now here. And I wanted to talk quickly about that. You touched upon religion. Okay. Now, religious views are not. It's a place of worship, right? And there's a different kind of field to that. There's a different, maybe sensitivity to that as well.

Earlier we were talking about residential and school, but church, it's a different kind of I don't know how to use the word, the vocation, but it's a different purpose and it has a different meaning to people. How do you go about beginning to do a church, Jonathan?

Where is there a book on architectural one on one churches?

Jonathan Goode: There's quite a few books on architecture in churches, but not necessarily 101, so again, have a good library of source material, [00:15:00] I think, absolutely. I think with churches, there is something, inherently spiritual about them. There is something beyond the sort of day to day function of a building.

They're important cultural buildings, and I think within the heritage of them. of our townscapes. They're usually the ones that are the older building. They have a lot of importance to them. So as well as the sort of congregation that use the church, there's also a sense of importance to the community around as well.

So I think you have to think about that. I think listening, understanding how the church congregation, the parish are using their church, how and how they want to use it, because Literature changes over time. How congregations worship and pray in the church will change over time and the church has, your building has to respond to that as well.

I tend to feel that the congregation isn't just the congregation of the living, it's also the congregation of those forefathers that came before, that built the church, and their intent, and what did they want. In a way, they're having that conversation with you, as well as the current congregation. Of course, [00:16:00] there's a future congregation as well that might want to do things slightly differently, so you have to have this sort of mind that these buildings are in use over multiple generations, not just the one.

Stephen Drew: I got you. Fair enough, makes a lot of sense. I can see the massive appeal of doing these buildings because you get involved with it. It's these places have already purpose meaning and looking after them in a sensitive way. Makes a lot of sense. If you're a, if we wind back the clock, or we think about people coming up now at part ones and part twos, who maybe have an interest in that, but don't really know how to do it, what do you advise on Jonathan?

Is it like looking for practices which do exist in heritage projects like yourself to get involved? Is it really, you learn by doing in this like kind of sector?

Jonathan Goode: In conservation heritage, there is a lot about learning about doing. I think that's it. You're getting your hands on things, experiencing things. I think the simplest thing is just to go out and enjoy heritage, and we can all enjoy heritage. So go to those [00:17:00] places. We were talking earlier about the B& A, Mattress Museum, the Science Museum, all fantastic heritage buildings.

And if you live here or visit London to go to. So that's the first thing. to do is experience that heritage. Other good sources are, there's a lot of heritage organizations and one I would particularly point to is SPABs, the Society of Protection of Ancient Buildings. They have some fantastic resources for people.

They have training courses, they even have scholarships that you can go on to. So they're a great resource for people who want to learn more about heritage and conservation. But look for the heritage practices. Since when I joined, the heritage practices have grown in size. There's much more opportunity to focus in on those practices.

And again, they will provide quite often resources for people to use as well, which is fantastic. And there's other organizations like Historic England Historic Scotland, and the other nations. They have [00:18:00] great resources on their websites that you can go to. Guidance for heritage, how to look after your heritage buildings.

Yeah, places you can go the value of heritage and things like that. So there's lots and lots of resources out there that you can dip into.

Stephen Drew: yeah very cool. Now you set up your own company and I joked earlier that you have to be a little bit crazy to set up your own company because having done it myself, you do have to be a little bit crazy. Equally though, it's very exciting. I would love to know why you decided to set up your own little practice.

Jonathan Goode: I heard that you're three this year, aren't you? Your practice, is that right? I

Stephen Drew: of us now. 4 of us now.

Jonathan Goode: thinking in terms of years, how many

Stephen Drew: Yeah. 3 of 4. 4

Jonathan Goode: I think

Stephen Drew: I've got a few grey hairs that started from doing it, Jonathan, yes.

Jonathan Goode: think this year will be our third practice in the summer, or sorry, third year, we'll be into our third year in the summer.

So very similar. See yourselves did the practice I work for is essentially I practice on my own now in terms of a [00:19:00] sort of Director the practice is much older. So we've carried on we have a history there that goes back quite a long period of time but as a sort of A sole director. This, it's been a couple of years.

It's a challenging process. I think I, I took it one because I wanted to focus practice much more around heritage and the work that I did. I needed the tools to be able to drive it much more in that direction to really focus in on those things that I found important, yeah, around the sort of climate emergency, around diversity and ability and things like that.

And just having. Full control of that.

Stephen Drew: I'm just enjoying the video in the background. I should have put it on earlier, but I got distracted by all the conservation and heritage project. It's quite a beautiful. We got some of the projects in the background as well, but earlier popped up. You've got your little office and stuff in person.

Now we're going to like hybrid work in, we're going in person. You made a joke before we joined [00:20:00] that it was a real background behind you. I love the Kinetic feel of offices. I think it'd be a shame to lose that completely. Is it important to you then to have an office in central London?

Is it a place that you enjoy coming to then?

Jonathan Goode: Absolutely. I think for me, it's the best work environment for myself. I organize myself around that. I think it's an opportunity to, engage socially with other people as well. It's fantastic. You have all your resources to hand. Yeah. And it's, we're a short walk. Most of the projects we work on are within walking distance.

I rarely travel outside of London, so there's something great about that as well, having that sort of proximity.

Stephen Drew: Wow. I love this video as well. You just get to see all the projects. I noticed you were on CAD there. At one point you were shaking your head. What was going wrong? What was going wrong? Was the model

Jonathan Goode: Now I was looking at the drawings, which were, I might say, slightly staged for the video.

Stephen Drew: I [00:21:00] love it, but it looks like you're incredibly hands on as well though, so this is, and this, maybe I'm getting a bit of advice from me here, and Jonathan as well, but even though the further you go, you've still got to muck in the drawings then, you've still got to get involved, still got to go to site, still got to make those models, is that true?

Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Goode: heritage architecture is very much a hands on thing. You've actually got to touch and feel the buildings as much as anything else. I had my hand under a solid concrete floor a couple of days ago, rooting around trying to find some pipework. It's, you're just in there with it.

Which is why I enjoy, this is why I could never get out of heritage because it's so immediate. You have a building from the start of the project. It's not one that arrives three years later, but right from the beginning, you're there with a building. It sometimes takes a long time to get to your final sort of vision, but you're always working with sort of real fabric during that process.

And I think now with the use of photography and [00:22:00] modeling, there's a lot more we can do as well on site. I take hundreds of photographs of these buildings and use them in the work that I do. I'm using more, more technology. I do a lot of my work on my phone alone without the need for any other equipment.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. I was going to say that there's going to be days in architecture, isn't there, where you get, you have the amazing days and you also have the tough days, the days that it just doesn't go your way or you've done it's all that stuff. What do you, how do you get past them? What do you like to remind yourself?

Cause you seem like a really upbeat person. I love that conversation. You've got this energy. What do you then still love about architecture and doing these kinds of projects? What keeps you going? What keeps you

Jonathan Goode: I, I think it's, I can walk out the door and I can find something fascinating to look at. I can open a book and find something fascinating to read about. I can meet other people and find out something fascinating that I haven't yet learned. I think that's what I like about architecture and particularly in heritage.[00:23:00]

It's a very friendly community. In, in heritage architecture and conservation, there are so many people that are so interested and bought into what they're doing, and wanting to share that with other people. So I think to some extent if you, even you're having a bad day, if you can just pick up the phone or talk to somebody else or go out the door and have a look at the fascinating architecture around you, it brings you back to where you know where you are and why you like it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough. I've got a little mini tangent question that I bring up and some people get annoyed, so I won't go too long about it. But we're in 2024, it's like the year of AI, all this stuff. Or people are thinking like, oh my gosh, am I going to lose my job? Or is this going to be useful? Artificial intelligence in architecture.

I've had a few conversations, some people like Don't worry about it. A few people are like, I use it for some things. Are you starting to see this go into this world of conservation and heritage architecture or not really yet?

Jonathan Goode: We're not there yet. I'm keeping a sort of wary [00:24:00] eye on it myself in terms of how it plays out. Like you I've dabbled with it a little bit in terms of helping you to write reports and stuff. I'm not great at writing, so I think a little bit there to help That side of things and I think that's great.

I think in this sort of creative process I think there's potential. Heritage is different in some respects to other forms of architecture But i'm sure there will be a way of bringing it in. I think Interpretation in heritage architecture is very important So interpretation essentially is how you get that message across about the history of a building and the history of the users I think AI it could be a really important element of that in terms of getting that message across.

That could be a fascinating area. Heritage is never really got started with BIM. I remember, if you think about 10 years ago, everybody had to do BIM. I was always quite skeptical about it in terms of heritage. Modeling and heritage are important, but not in the sense of the way that sort of BIM was put forward.

So again with AI, it's, I think, I naturally hang back slightly to see where the useful Part of that technology is not [00:25:00] necessarily just say we have to be scared of it, or we have to implement it. It's how's it going to be useful to me? How is it going to help my clients?

How is it going to help, the stakeholders in the building? And when I see that element of usefulness, that's the bit that I'll grab, hold off and use.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough, because the other part of the industry BIM has been steamrolled through. However, there are pockets of interior design, heritage or maybe solo practitioners where. Yeah, like you say, what's the case for it? Is it practical? So good to know. In the video as well, and I know when we're doing the video and listen, if there's a video of the Architecture Social, I'm going to be pointing at the wall and doing things, which is stuff we do, we've got to do it for the film.

I noticed you did hand drawing though, and now we're talking about BIM, and before that was CAD, right? And then, yeah, there's hand drawing before. And when I went to uni, I was on the cusp! Of that he was giving in to CAD, I was like, it was that point, but two of the three years before that, a lot of the modules [00:26:00] had to be in hand drawing.

Do you still try to hand draw as much as possible, Jonathan? Do you think it's still important to sketch and stuff in

Jonathan Goode: I do. And it's always been part of my process in terms of design and creativity. And I think, it's. It is, it has a nice place in heritage as well. I think like with most things little, so little time is actually spent drawing now. And so much time is spent writing reports and answering emails.

That's more of the, that's more of the issue. But for me, if I can draw that's a good day to be able to do that hand drawing for me it's. How I can explore a project, how I can explore creative ideas and I also find people have an openness to drawing as well, which sometimes they don't have to CAD or to, to rendering.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that's true. And I think the same thing for physical models, isn't it? It's that, you bring it into a room and you can't really People understand it better than maybe looking at a computer screen. Do you do a lot of physical models as well as the [00:27:00] hand sketching then, Jonathan?

Jonathan Goode: We don't so much physical models, we do some computer model sketching, which helps out, out of the way. I think. For me, and it, in terms of the creative process, I've been much more about the sketch, about developing the viewpoint, about developing, working through details, through sketching and things like that.

I know other architects use modeling in for a sim similar purpose. I think it's very much depends on what you are most comfortable with. What's your creative process? Is it a pencil or is it, is it scissors on cardboard?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, it makes complete sense. Now you run your own business. Part of that is when at certain times at point, you're probably going to scale up all this stuff, right? What I'd love to know is you're online. People might be applying to you and stuff. What do you look for in web, it could be an architectural assistant or a junior architect, for example, when you're thinking of hiring, is there things that jump out to you in a CV and portfolio [00:28:00] that grab your attention, that works really well for conservation and heritage?

Do you have any like tips and advice on that kind of thing that would grab your attention that the people should remember?

Jonathan Goode: I think there is, for me, I think there's, for me, presentation, I think is quite important. That's partly because we're interested in the arts and cultural aspects as well as heritage. So presentation is always important. Seeing people's ability to combine various different programs to produce their portfolio of their CV.

I think that's, that's something I enjoy seeing that way that people do. I think seeing an inherent interest in heritage or history or some sort of social aspect, I think that's important to me. So yeah, either in terms of the projects they've done, the modules they've done at university but also what the personality outside of architecture, what do they get involved in?

What are their interests? So for me You know the little box at the bottom, which is other interests, is for me more important than you, the college, the course or the [00:29:00] college that somebody has gone to. I want to know, how do you spend your time outside of architecture? Are you involved in sort of voluntary groups?

Are you an organizer? Those kind of things. And that tells me as, as much as a list of qualifications.

Stephen Drew: Very good. Another question on the age old debate of so especially when I know I was a part two architectural assistant many moons ago, it feels like that. I printed out my portfolio and even when I worked in recruitment at the start, it would be like. You've got to take your CV and portfolio in person.

Now we're starting to see more digital stuff as well, where people can take a laptop to to an interview. What's your thoughts on it? Do you still enjoy looking at a beautiful presented portfolio? Are you open minded to people showing stuff digitally as well?

Jonathan Goode: I'm sending it open minded to people. Showing things digitally. I think I dug my old portfolio out from a sort of box a short while ago with all the printed pages. I wouldn't necessarily want to put people through that, printing off, [00:30:00] pages and pages of drawings. And you can do that, as you say, through a laptop or tablet, or, if you're sending.

Something else with your CV, so a link to a website, your personal website is a great way. So not necessarily just a PDF, but a website link is a great one. And we, you can then explore that person's work. I think for me, when at the interview stages I want to know much more about their experiences, so I'm not necessarily looking at all of their portfolio work.

It's useful to maybe draw out one or two of their projects and talk to them about those, their experiences, those. But as I say, it's much more about the conversation with the person that you're talking to, not just the portfolio.

Stephen Drew: I think that's good common sense advice and good to hear. Do you remember, like, when I was a part one, I had that big A0 portfolio, I think. You remember? And there's, you're lugging it around London and it's got all their the plastic cases. It was, it's somewhere in my parents attic somewhere and it will probably remain to that day.

But it's, I like [00:31:00] that because, and where I wanted to go is because while the work Leans into the past and also embracing the future. It's quite nice to know that people like yourself, you, you're all, you're chilled out in terms of, if I could see the word, the scribe, it's act, but the true nugget of what you said is, it is about the conversation, isn't it?

It's the, I almost think receiving the portfolio gets you into the interview, but then it's the conversation that takes it from them.

Jonathan Goode: I think it's, you might say quality rather than quantity. You don't need a lot, you don't need to show a big portfolio in order to convince. I think you just need to show one or two projects that you're really invested in that you can talk about. And it could be art for us. It could be artworks or graphics.

It doesn't have to be a building. It's anything, something that shows. your skills. And as you say, a lot of our skills are about the equipment we use, not just the sort of architectural projects we work on.

Stephen Drew: Very good. Very good. Now, I know you got to go in a bit, so I won't keep you too long. However what are you, it's 2024. We got mixed feelings about maybe the economy's coming [00:32:00] back. Maybe this, maybe that. In a broad sense, what are you excited about in 2024? Are you excited?

Or if there is, how do you feel about things at the moment?

Jonathan Goode: I'm pretty, pretty excited, pretty looking forward to 2024. I think because let's say this is a sort of second was going into third year of practice. So there's been quite challenging the first couple of years. Now things are bedding in there's much more sort of flow to it. We I did some interesting things last year, which are hopefully going to show some fruit this year.

So I was involved in writing a course module on heritage and retrofit, which was fascinating. So I'm looking forward to to implement that more this year. I've had some really good conversations with people last year around retrofits and heritage and accessibility. And those are bringing more conversations, more opportunities this year.

So I'm very optimistic that things are So the momentum is building up, the sort of the opportunities there are hopefully opening, doors are opening. So I think it could be, a really good year this year.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I'm cautiously [00:33:00] optimistic too, if you turn on BBC News, it'll bring you down at some point because it's, we're,

Jonathan Goode: don't look at the economy, it's hard, but it's try not to be obsessed about that and think about, for me it's not just the sort of the numbers on this, this financial spreadsheet, it's about the people I've met, the people I've had conversations with, can I continue those conversations, can we go into a new area of research or a new area of exploration?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. I've been asking all the questions, and I do think it's unfair that my guests have, at the mercy of what I'm saying all the time. So I'd like to throw it back a little bit, and what I was going to say, Jonathan, is there anything you want to ask me about either when I worked in practice, or like what I'm doing now, or what I've been up to since me and you last had a beer at some point?

I can't remember. We were at that event. I don't know, it wasn't too boozy, but it was a nice talk. Is there anything you want to ask me at all? Like

Jonathan Goode: I'm going to ask you a sort of heritage specific question, I think, because we had a chat about this. What's your favorite [00:34:00] heritage destination and what keeps bringing you back to that place?

Stephen Drew: Okay. I've got, I'll give you the raw thing that comes to mind. There's one or two of them because I don't practice architecture anymore, per se, still in the architecture industry, but I was lucky. There was two buildings I worked on at EPR Architects when I was there and they were with listed buildings.

So one of them was St. James Palace. Oh my gosh, yeah really high end. That was like, phwoar. There was one point I went in there and they were like, yeah, we're going to put the showers in there. And then the interior designer, I was just a kid and he's

Jonathan Goode: that's a good one to start on.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. But he was like, it's about a 12, 000 pounds for the shower head. And I was like, whoa, cause I was saving up for a deposit, but this was the high end, Jonathan, I know you've worked on all different ends and that's important too, isn't it? But it was the high end and there was even conversations mid project where they were like, yeah, we might actually just change it all.

Because before we were looking at eight mega apartments. But apparently like a Saudi prince might buy the whole [00:35:00] building and I was like, oh, okay. If that happens we'll change it. So it was amazing. And going to site on there, we actually went on the roof. That was one of the cool things.

You get to go on the roof in London which you can't normally go on, isn't it? Cause they're mega, some of these buildings, you can't do it. So we went on site. It was really cool. Downside for me. Being Mr. Inaccurate was I had to measure all the rooms and they were all bumpy, nothing matched up, so it was, that bit was just a nightmare for me, but it was a small price to pay.

Yeah, I did it begrudgingly. Because the project was so cool. The other one was in Wandsworth, was the Ram Brewery quarter, which was really special. Yeah, so EPR done that. And that was really all meets new cause some of the, there was just like some really new buildings, but then there was the brewery on site and it was really cool and they got a tour of it and it was amazing.

But I haven't been there since. That's a

Jonathan Goode: Oh, I have. It's

Stephen Drew: So I need to go[00:36:00]

Jonathan Goode: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: And there's a brewery, but I'm trying to be good at the moment, in January so I'll do it. But I had a really good experience, actually, so that's that's been truthful. I'd say that I enjoyed doing them more, dare I say, than new builds.

However, I'm probably not a good precedent for that, because I never did my part 3. But, it was fantastic. It was fantastic while I was there. Is is that a roundabout answer? Will

Jonathan Goode: Yeah no it's good. I know both of those buildings. They're both fantastic

Stephen Drew: You know them as well. I caught you by surprise by saying St. James's Palace's building, the one next to it, didn't I? I caught you out there. Yeah, no problem. Don't worry, you've done more buildings than me, Jonathan, trust me.

Jonathan Goode: but you certainly started at the top, I think, correct? It would be working around

Stephen Drew: I just got planted. I didn't know what I was doing. I just got plonked into it. That's always the way, isn't it? You're doing all these beautiful buildings. You're working out. You're building that rapport with Westminster and me apart too. They're like, oh, just get Steve's available. Shove him on your [00:37:00] project.

Jonathan Goode: I, as a part two, I started on Westminster Abbey.

Stephen Drew: Whoa.

Jonathan Goode: it's been a journey downwards rather than a journey upwards.

Stephen Drew: I'm not even practicing anymore. So the journey has ended. So don't you worry. I.

Jonathan Goode: you can always go and enjoy heritage. That's my point. You can go out there. There's so many destinations you can go to and enjoy.

Stephen Drew: I think it feels rewarding, even just, I'm proud to say I was involved in them. Listen, I'm not saying I was the project architect that designed it. And I definitely didn't, but it was nice to be involved. It was, it's, and you, it's the, I think the thing is with especially listed building. You've got a little bit of this with new buildings, but there's something about going to that building, knowing that you've been involved with it.

And it's got all that history which I think is really cool. I'm a big fan, but thank you so much for going through this. I really appreciate it. I'm sure there's some other things that we can unpick in the future. Maybe we can return to it, but maybe if people in the audience have enjoyed this.

Jonathan, where do they find you? How do they get in touch?

Jonathan Goode: I think probably the best place to [00:38:00] look is on LinkedIn. I'm a little bit more active on there and you can find much more sort of links to the artwork that we're involved in, about retrofit, about accessibility, all the links are there, all the conversations I'm having are there. So that's a great place to start if you look for Jonathan Goode, Architect, on LinkedIn.

Stephen Drew: Excellent. I really appreciate all you've done. Now, Jonathan, stay on the stage for one second because I'm just going to wind down the show and say to our audience, Thank you so much for tuning in. I really appreciate it. I've got more content to come next week as well. Bear with me while I schedule it.

Now, on that note, Enjoy the rest of your week. Don't crash the Revit model, but if you like some of the conservation and listed buildings we're talking about, get involved with it. Jonathan's a very approachable person. Just say hello. That's what I did. He, I loomed, I jumped onto him in in, in an event we were at and we had a great chat, but thank you so much for watching.

I'm going to end the live stream now. Have a lovely day, everyone. Take [00:39:00] care. Bye bye now.