What makes a good Architecture CV?

What makes a good Architecture CV?
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Hello? Hi.

Jack Moran: Hi guys. It looks like we all live.

Stephen Drew: Oh, wow. This is

Jack Moran: cool. Isn't it? I like this is a nice spin on things. So for everyone who is joining us, thank you for joining us today. My name is Jack Moran. I'm joined by Stephen Drew. We both have worked in architectural recruitment. Steven also has an interesting history as a Part Two Architect

so Steven, what I thought I'd do for the benefit of everyone watching you are my boss, normally, I thought that we flip it around today and I ask you some questions so that you can point out the key information for graduates when it comes to building the perfect CV and portfolio, the do's and don'ts, the things that you've seen over the years that you don't want to see anymore, or things that you feel are left out, that they want to, that you want to see further.

How does that

Stephen Drew: sound to you? Sounds good to me. I was just double checking. Everyone can hear us because I've got a little mute button. [00:01:00] So sure. All right, we can go for it. So I'm Stephen Drew. I used to be a part, two architectural assistant. I trained up in the industry and then I worked at an AJ100 practice called EPR architects around the time that I was a Part One, it was the 2009 recession.

And I had to find a job during that time when there was absolutely there, there wasn't many jobs around. And so it was a, quite a tough time. Since then I worked in industry for few more years before doing what I do now, which is I focus on getting people, jobs and architectural recruitment, matching architectural practices with people in a practical.

Excellent.

Jack Moran: And I think the benefit the graduates will have here is that, speaking to yourself, you've done both sides, so you've been the architect, but now you've gone over to the recruiter side, but you've transferred that knowledge of the market and the more technical details.

You had, at one point you still will have your own portfolio. So what I'd like to do is [00:02:00] set out like an interview style. I'm going to pretend that I'm a graduate as well. Who's coming out of university. And I want to ask you things about potential CV that I would do or portfolio and where you think, what your expertise would say to do, even from the smallest things, so font size up to the level of information.

I need to put it up. So let's get dissected the perfect CV portfolio.

Stephen Drew: Perfect CV. Wow.

Jack Moran: Let's start it off. Nice and simple. Okay. Color. What color should I be using on my

Stephen Drew: CV? Wow, that is a very difficult one to start with Jack, I would say whatever color the person feels is appropriate.

As long as it can be at legible, you don't want to have, for instance, a gray background over things. If you can't read the texts and I've believed that the CV should speak for itself, and the main focus is the content who you are, what you're about, and really you want to make an impact. You want the person who is reviewing the CV to quickly get a good impression of what you're [00:03:00] about and what they want to.

They want to invite you for an interview. So you don't want a color which will detract from that. I think really. The emphasis is about our well that's fantastic. Good to see you. I was just Strack asked me what color his CV should be and put me on the spot. And I said that basically, I think it should be the colors, not as important.

It's actually the content really. And the CV is all about making my impression straight away, which resonates, which would resonate with the employer and ideally bring, get you an interview, but what do you think?

Will Ridgway: I actually not disagree with you, but I've got a slightly different take on it.

Cause I think I color can actually, not necessarily, there's no right color to use, but it can actually deter away from the content that's in the CV. I think if you've got like big, bold colors and it's like all over the place, like large blue background, dark blue, or even [00:04:00] red, for example, I think red is very difficult to read off.

So I think color can, it can be significant factor because you don't want, you want to keep it simple. I think some people go a bit to artists.

Stephen Drew: I think it's about distraction, isn't it. And the point is what you're saying is if a color's a bit of off pay. So for instance, sometimes people overlay images in the background and I can get really distracted by it when really what you want the person to focus on.

That is who you are, what you can offer, where you, what you've done in university, where you've worked in industry. And as well as that, what software you've gotten, how to get in contact with you really basic stuff. So that would be my first. Excellent.

Jack Moran: Okay. And so if it comes to a background now, do you recommend going this sort of plain background, nothing comes off of it at all?

Like you said, I know the images, it can be distracting. So would you say the same about backgrounds?

Stephen Drew: I wouldn't have a background, plus my opinion, the work should speak for itself. So for [00:05:00] me, it's all about a clear attacks font, which is eligible and there's not comic Sans or anything like that. You maybe, and really nice clean, easily presented font, which prints really well.

And you want to keep the layout quite simple and efficient. You are, I think in this should be two pages as well. So it should be really light and really easy to go. Where do you

Jack Moran: stand? It's an interesting topic. This, because obviously CDs in general are a fundamental part of getting a job, but being architecture, do you have a bit more freedom to be a bit more creative with the CV, as opposed to, someone who might just be going for a job as like a facilities manager or something,

Stephen Drew: right?

Yeah. So the CV with a CV you'll have a portfolio and the portfolio should be show an overview of the work you've done. And the CV is normally one or two pages and together they paint a picture of who you are and what you're about. Sometimes you can have a beautiful [00:06:00] image or two on a CV that you don't want it too small, and you don't want it too big.

I've seen examples of an image on the CV where economics be a taster to get someone into a, to get to the person, reading the CV, excited, and then they can have a little lock in the portfolio, but equally a CV can be just text and that's equally fine as well. What do you think?

Will Ridgway: So I think I agree with having keeping quite simple, really.

I think some people go overboard with trying to convey their architecture fled too much in the CV by adding these backgrounds, maybe like flowers over the CV. So it can be quite distracting when you're, when you've got your portfolio. They, it doesn't need to be too in too complicated.

I think it's better to be simple and subtle. I can ask the most effective. And when it comes to your sort of color scheme, just keep it neat. Really. It's just gotta be neat and tidy. Yeah. That's really what I would say.

Stephen Drew: Yes. I agree with the [00:07:00] content and who you are about should come through, right? The person shouldn't be distracted by anything else.

And I think that this theme that we're talking about is cool and that transcends tax font, everything. It really should go through for, at it should go for everything. So I believe so we talk about do's and don'ts for that a bit, Jack, just to jump in. So downs is. You don't want anything that distracts from the mission as the CV, and then what is the mission?

Jack Moran: What's

Stephen Drew: the mission? I think the mission is to make a positive impression and gain an interview, right? You want to con you want someone to, you want the, you need to solve the employer's problem. So if I'm running a practice and I have a team, and on that team, I'm working on a residential project and I need someone else.

They need to look at that CV. And the point that comes across. Reading that CV is that you can help fix that [00:08:00] problem. So if you, for instance, showcase that you've made that you understand rabbits and you've got a two, one at a really good university and then brilliant. You want to showcase that.

And if you've worked in industry as well, you want that to pop, you want that to put that at the top. So in five seconds you can almost scan down the CV and subliminally the employer will think this person. There's something there. Let me go to the next level and then they'll start reading the CV in more detail.

And then the idea is that at that point, that they're interested, they can see the contact details and get in touch. So for me, that's what a C that's what the CV should do. And a few dues is making that information easily available and pop quickly. So don'ts for me are distractions. So as well said, we don't want no flowery backgrounds.

You don't want a font that's too small or, and also a CV that's too long. You're not getting the [00:09:00] points across. You're getting lost and you're meandering and therefore you're not you're doing yourself a disservice. So that's my thoughts. But what do you think? Yeah,

Will Ridgway: so I completely agree.

I think it's best to always see your CV as a piece of advertisement of yourself. So if your ads nowadays have sees a bit quirky, so don't, this is a loose connection to it, but they're quite simple and very short in terms of words, and when it comes to CV, you don't want to overload it by paragraphs and paragraphs of writing.

You want to keep it short and sweet and concise. I think that's very important because that way it gets the message across. It was the means that the employer or the hiring manager, whoever's looking at the CV, it doesn't switch off because it can be quite lengthy to read paragraphs and paragraphs of writing, which is why I think when it comes to the layout of the CV, it's got to be simple.

Generally. I prefer when I read CVS, I like reading things in chunks. So if it's already chunked for me, it's really [00:10:00] helpful. So if you've got like chunk for one section for your introduction, a chunk for your employment history, a chunk for your education history, it's very easy to go through it. See exactly where to look at, to find specific information.

So if I'm looking for a CV and I see, and I want to find out where they worked at before, it's very easy for me to locate that. Whereas some people, if you read. As a big bulk message, it can be quite difficult to find that crucial information when we just need to look through and find those key points.

So simple, effective, and subtle is generally the things I look I would like to see.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that covers a lot of presentation, but what's your thoughts Jack, on the night? What kind of bits you want to talk about next? Maybe? I think,

Jack Moran: it's quite good. Cause obviously the points we've just covered, essentially the fundamentals are, don't overload your CV, keep it, keep the vital information that don't overdo it.

And as will said, it's merely an advertisement of yourself. You want to almost [00:11:00] dangle a carrot stick in front of them. And then once you really want to get the interview that as the mission isn't able to get in there and see yourself. Yeah. So I think it's a really good point. I wanted to ask both of you, over the years you've worked in the industry, what is the most common don't that you see happen in CVS?

Now this can be, from graduates up to lead, where are the most common mistakes in people's CVS and portfolios that

Stephen Drew: you find? So for me, I'll say mine first. Is that the one I'm always surprised. Is people not spellchecking right. It's a document that it's supposed to be the most important document to the person that you're basically you're trying to secure an interview.

And when you're designing a document, sometimes you can almost skim read it, or you know what you mean? So that when you actually read it yourself, you don't pick up that there's grammar errors or spelling. And actually, that's why it's always good to get someone else to read it.

Because the last thing you want to do is have [00:12:00] spelling mistakes, which detracts, and puts off the employer from inviting you for, to an interview. So I would double and triple spousal track. The CV and make sure it reads well, make sure it's eligible, make sure that the content is fought out and concise.

What do you think? Yeah, I completely agree.

Will Ridgway: That's exactly what I was thinking at first when Jack posed the question. Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking. And I can't reiterate enough how important it is and how many people make the mistake. Wherever you're not English is your first language or not.

Everyone makes this mistake. And it's like Steven said, it's just easy to skip over the same word that you've misspelled. I do it all the time. And so it's always important to get a different take on it, get someone else to read for it. I think to try and freshen up rather than repeat what Steven said.

I think one of the biggest don'ts I see is it's mainly. Other than spelling. It'd [00:13:00] probably be like the amount of pages. I think it's probably less relevant for those starting out. Students because you generally don't have enough content to stretch over three pages. That's excluding a portfolio by the way.

I'm just talking about the main CV itself. But as you expand your history of education history, your work history, a lot of people end up having pages and pages of CV and, not all of it's relevant. I think you can make it, you can condense it down and make it a maximum of two pages. And then you have that lovely sample portfolio following up after.

So I would it's always key to, be concise. Cause I think some people can waffle on a little bit in their CV or talk about things that don't have to talk about the CV. They can save it for the interview instead. So it's just all about being concise and That's it.

Stephen Drew: And the other thing I'd like to jump in with is that you need to make sure again, that your contact details have very obvious that you don't want someone to get excited and then they can't find they can't, they don't know how to get in contact with [00:14:00] you.

And the other thing that I don't think you should rely on NCVs is web links. So for example, you always need a CV and a portfolio and they should be complimentary, right? You can't expect someone's employer to click a web link and the CV might be printed out in the office. No, one's going to type in.

Email address, sorry, along a website. So you want the CV almost like to join on to the portfolio. I wouldn't do that. And as well, looking at some of the, some of my faults. Yeah. Our little notes before social media accounts, you don't need to put them on there. You want to keep the attention on the CV and portfolio.

You don't want the employer then to start typing in your social media account, going on your Instagram, seeing what you got up to on Sunday with. It's great. And you'd let you know if you've got loads of art by then, and that's fantastic, but the whole mission of the CV is to get to solve the employer's [00:15:00] problems and get you in, the fact that you worked in industry and, rabbits and you've had good references is what you should be focusing on.

You don't want people to go off into the meander, into the never, and by that. They don't, they've forgotten why they went to meet you. So you want to keep the focus that really?

Will Ridgway: Yeah. I think the the only social media you shouldn't be, you should put there, you don't have to put it. It'd be LinkedIn.

That'd be the only one that's be relevant for it. You want to keep the Instagram stuff away because Steven says it deters you. I think it's important when it comes to contact details as well. You want to make sure they're, they're at the top of the page somewhere easily visible, and then.

I think going into a bit more about contact details, thinking of people put stuff that you don't necessarily have to include it. And that includes a lot of, I think people put date of births, their home address is not needed for a CV. And I think actually you should always avoid it because the last [00:16:00] thing you want is for an employer to see if you're.

You're studying at Manchester. Yeah. If you're studying in Manchester and you're living in Manchester, but you were applying for a job in London, the last thing you want.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. You need some, let them know where you going and they, and that's a really good point. Let's talk about that one second, because for instance, if you are a student, who's just come back from America and the, you don't have a address in Britain.

I would try to, if you are going to put your address on that, you need to at least say that you're in London, or even if it's a friend's address, you need something there. And I would always get a British number if we're trying to get a job in London, you'd do that because typing plus free for foreign sometimes can be, can cause a bit of confusion and then you don't get a call.

So you need to definitely put that on a British UK address and phone number then. And we've references. Cause we were talking about yesterday and our little group when we well about references where I think. Putting down the [00:17:00] person to who, who give the references fine. You don't need to put down the, your references mobile number down there yet until you go for the interview with that should be the final part of the process, in my opinion, and obviously if you are in current employment, this is probably a good one to put.

You should definitely do not put down your current employer as a reference yet. Oh, you want to say currently employed at this particular company would respectfully ask you to ask for a reference at the end and maybe then put down a previous ref referral into. Yeah. I think that a

Jack Moran: lot of it is it sounds, quite like common sense, doesn't it?

But we've all seen so many profile portfolios and CVS where people just don't adhere to this stuff. And this is not surprised. No, then they don't get that cool

Stephen Drew: back. Yeah. I remember once when I, my part one, I remember that my mobile wouldn't work for one day and because they were just wet, it just broke.

And the employee, I rang doing that. And so I got the call. I [00:18:00] rang back and immediately I was on the back foot, from the get go. So then I felt really awkward and it's because basically. I didn't fully plan it out or what I should have done is dealt with the problem straight away, but basically they couldn't ring me.

And now is the difference because it was real life right now. And there's it's a tough time. And so there's probably 10 people. Who's also applying for that role. So if they can't get ahold of you or you don't make that impact straight away, the sad reality is there's probably several CVS as well.

So you've really got to nail it down. It's almost like. It's the quick thing of for instance you want to on the CV, you want to get the point across and then at the end of it, they've got to know how to get hold of you straight away. But the other thing that I think would be good to talk about is your next point track.

I'm sorry, I'm reading your list here, but the employment and education and

Jack Moran: yeah. Yeah. That's what I wanted to ask because I've seen it myself as [00:19:00] well. With continuity and seeing your CDN portfolio a bit like a timeline, but the amount of CDs I've seen where there's crossover dates or, there's things that don't make sense.

So w what, your sort of advice and tips for people when it comes to putting your employer dates and, your role. Good

Stephen Drew: question. So I, so employment dates, if you have a gap, it's absolutely no problem. I always feel that when you have something which you nervous about, so whether it's visa, sponsorship or a gap, when the employment, the best thing to do is to tackle it head on, right?

I would say exactly why, there's absolutely no shame that the bizarre bit comes as if you almost do not explain the gaps. One of my close friends in his CV, he went traveling for a year and he said, globally, went on my motorcycle, travel abroad, and traveling around in Richmond and experience.

He embraced then the empire like that, they talked about that. And then that gap was fine. If, for instance, [00:20:00] right now, your job has been impacted because. Let's talk about it because the reality is several companies right now have had to make tough decisions and fellow people I'll make redundancies. There is absolutely no shame and embracing that.

And I think that addressing gaps in the CVS, the right thing. The other thing, yeah, the moment that I've seen some examples though, when you dig deeper into a CV and actually the dates don't really tally up the LinkedIn and it's a bit confusing. And then I actually, then in my head, I start visualizing if this person.

Altering the fabrics of what is real then what else will be there, and then, so there's this sort of feeling then of a lack of trust. So any gaps in the employment, explain them. And if you had to, for instance, if you've had a child and you've been working at home and you want to get back into industry, say that, embrace that because that's real life, we are, life happens.

We know this we've been we're on furlough. It can makes [00:21:00] complete sense. W obviously we want to come back when it's, when everything is right, but right now that's the reality of the situation. And I'm not embarrassed to say it because the thing is that real life, these things happen.

So going back to your points, always embrace real life, explain these things. And if you hit it head on at the start and say why it becomes a non-issue. So then when you go into the interview, you're not worried. You don't feel like you're hiding something or you're embarrassing. What do you think?

Will Ridgway: Yeah, I completely agree.

I've seen so many CVS that maybe you've got, you've been to like, multiple jobs and then there's, but the dates of these jobs are 2020, 2019 to 2020. Now other ones, 2017, 2002 19. This is like pretty vague. It's very vague. And you immediately, my natural reaction is to think, okay, what are they hiding?

Whereas if you had said, maybe I went traveling during this during these periods and you spent like a year and a month at this place. Unfortunately the place had to close down [00:22:00] because they had had to make people redundant, run out of money because of whatever. So it's important just to tackle it head on because then you have nothing to hide and it's, everyone's human.

So I, that's why I, that's why I would say, I think you've really hit the nail on the head there, Steve, with those points, really anything I had done as well as maybe the particular order that you set it up. So in terms of chronological order, I think some people, for some reason, lights of do it from oldest to newest at the bottom.

And I always should be the other way round, just like your portfolio, where it should be the most recent at the top. And then. Each one goes down, but with the dates include the months and the year you'd have to include what they're just a month and a year is sufficient enough.

Stephen Drew: I agree. The only thing I'd add to that is that you probably want to put a bit more emphasis on the last few roles.

So for instance, let's pretend you're a design director and you're all career you've gone through several different stages. You can just say that you were a [00:23:00] part one back in the day. You don't need to necessarily talk about everything you did as a part one, because you progressed since then. So you maybe you'll talk about the last two or three roles in more detail.

So for instance on my LinkedIn, for instance, my emphasis is on my current roles and what I'm up to. And I mentioned that I was a part one before. I don't necessarily talk about all the things I did in great length. What you want to cover off in an architectural or CV. And my opinion, once you've worked in India, You want to talk about where you currently work, what your role was on the project.

You want to talk about the size of the project and the sector. For instance, if I'm currently, when I was like, when I was at EPR, I was working on a residential scheme, which was large-scale based in London using MicroStation. That's the main key point. I don't need to do is talk about, I don't need to tell you the ins and outs of everything you want to hit that on.

You want to talk about the [00:24:00] sector, the RIBA stages. Thank you, Chris. I completely agree whether it's stage one or stage five, because really that's the important bit. The employer will then know if you've worked on. And stages, or you've worked on technical stages. And ideally if you've done all reader stages, then you paint in the picture for the empire that you've carried a building through.

For instance, if you've worked on stages one to three, then it's really important. You put that in because actually if a project's a stage four, you probably not the right fit and you're going to be overwhelmed. So you need to stay exactly what you've done in industry, if you're, and if you haven't worked in industry and so there's a state.

You want to talk about what software you've done and you wanted, you want to give it and you want, you, don't almost don't need to see the need to talk about the academic, if thesis behind them. It's more about, I went to this university, I got this grade and this the scores. And actually then if you haven't worked in an architectural practice yet, talk [00:25:00] a little bit about what you've done in in, in terms of work.

So on my CV, it was that I worked in Waitrose, but I didn't talk about everything I did at Waitrose. I didn't talk about me getting the chickens out of the oven. But what I did say is that I worked and I liaise with people and actually I was involved with sales. I was involved with logistics and I kept it really brief, but that showed that I actually was someone that was.

Professionally engaged. I had done stuff as well during the time I studied, but what that's my fault on it, really.

Will Ridgway: Okay. Yeah. I

Jack Moran: was just going to say what you said about the waitressing is quite good. Steven. I think for a, for particularly a lot of the graduates, they're going to be coming out of uni, looking for their first job.

Now it's going to be an intimidating process for a lot of people. I think what the risk some graduates will do are say they've had like yourself jobs outside of architecture before, but they will put a huge amount of detail and [00:26:00] responsibility into such a role. And it makes it sound like, that they were almost at a managerial position.

And I think, it's not what employers want because they can generally get a good idea of what you've done in that role. But what would you think. I

Stephen Drew: think you keep it. I think it's more about what you want to do from putting that on the CVS as show that you're someone that's hardworking. And you've been implied. So that's the bit you want to take away. So I think on my waitress, it would be work full time here and there did this, that while studying and talk about it and say, I did this while I was working while I was studying so that I could get through my degree in architecture, because that's how you, what then if you came to me, I'd be talking about that.

And then I'd be talking about your interest in architecture. And the fact is you support yourself going through it. So I think it's very commendable to put that stuff in, but obviously the bed, but you always want to focus on the main thing in. If you have worked in industry, that is the focus, right? And then any other [00:27:00] transferable work skills, then you talk about it.

So you want it. So if you're a student, I see it as education first, and any internships, anything you've done like that, or anything architectural related then goes at the front. If you haven't and then you talk about other work experience. If you are an architect, for instance, and you have several years experience, because we are going to put the education there, we need to instantly know when you got your ARB, so people can visualize how long you've been practicing.

But do you want to talk about your most recent work first? And the examples you want to be literal? You want to be like, who, what, where, when, why, so you want to be like, I was a project architect, LA 20 million pounds, residential scheme stages 1, 2, 3. And I did this other project as well. So you go boom.

And then you talk a little bit about what you did as part two and you trail off.

Jack Moran: Excellent. Okay. And that feeds quite nicely into the next topic I wanted to bring up. And this is a bit more specific. It's talking about the software, a particular proficiency. Now [00:28:00] we know working in the market that we do, we understand how some software, has been on the incline and some similar decline when it comes to, using software, which is a fundamental part of architecture.

What is your advice for, talking about one skill or to particular software rev it, for

Stephen Drew: example, so good questions. Cause I've got the truth is I've got two faults in my mind. So my two always used to say to me, right? So rabbit for instance, is a piece of software. It's a designed. But it doesn't, you can have rabbit, but the reality is you need an architect to, to drive rabbit.

You need, an architect needs to design and needs to know how to design a building. The rabbit, come through that for you. And the EMR part of it is from working in recruitment. Again, it goes back to the point of an employer has a problem or the employer will have a current setup. Okay. So the fact that is the truth is if rabbit right now, you do have an advantage because you will be [00:29:00] joining an architecture practice.

And if they use rapids, which is the way it's all going, cause a bin. You, if you have that skillset, you are putting yourself at a massive advantage compared to someone who doesn't, that's not to say it's not a measurement of your design scale. So software's an interesting one. We're actually, I think software can be the big difference and you get in the job or not.

So for instance, me and we'll work with some architecture practices and if you do not have rabbits, the reality is we can't get you an interview and there's been times isn't it. Where we got really close, or for instance, there was one architecture practice and they interviewed a friend of mine actually.

And they really liked them. And it was just the fact that he didn't know rabbit was the difference between him getting the job or not. So I do think showcasing all the software, is really important. And so I can just see a question that's come in. It's really subjective. And how you are, you put that on a piece of paper because [00:30:00] as I remember remember one of my.

One of the candidates are speaking to us like, yes, I'm a red that wears on the best 10 hour, 10, 10 out of 10. And then she did a rabbit test and didn't get such a high score. Whereas for instance, I know a few people, there was a BIM coordinator who basically it says. He can use it and he's used it for a length of time and he was the one that was a big Maestro.

So I think to say on CVS, you're seven hour 10 on rabbit, for instance, that is highly subjective. So the way I go about with software is to be literal. So I would say. If you are a citizen, I would say I have used rabbit for one or two years on a project on my academic project. If you've used it then in industry, I will say that during my employment at EPR, I use rabbit for two years because what you're doing is you've been quantifying it [00:31:00] in a length of time and which isn't subjective, because this is a fact then that you worked on that project.

But that period of time, and you were using rabbit, and that is something that is actually quite, you can, it's tangible because that's a period of time you use that. And I think that's the way I would go. I personally, when you see some CVS and they'll be borrow a 10 and I think I did when I was a student, because I put my CV on the.

On the architecture socially they look at it, then I'm at the time I think I said, excellent intermediate. And I looked back and that subjective, where I should have done is said the length of time that they used the programs. But what do you think?

Will Ridgway: Yeah, I've seen so many people, write themselves out of 10 and yes, it is quite subjective, but it's also, it's quite visually nice if I want to quickly see through something and I can see someone feels confident with it.

Great. If they've got rev, if they've mentioned whether on their software skills less then fantastic. Cause I that's really helpful.

Stephen Drew: [00:32:00] Yeah, I know. I know. And I'm going to play devil's advocate with you here is a debate, right? So yeah. So say not go on. Tell me how long have you.

Will Ridgway: He's seven out of 10.

Yeah. But it gives me an indicator that they know what they're talking about when it comes to benefits. But obviously, I don't use that as face value. It's an indicator to the employer, but the employer is not going to hire you based on the fact that you've done seven out, you got seven out of 10 number fits on your seat.

Stephen Drew: I w I would hire you on the fact that you've done architectural recruitment for the close to two years. That's tangible. But if you send me a CV and you said your eight are kind of recruitment, and what does that mean? Why are you AOTA? And cause you've got to speak with people

Jack Moran: it's too subjective.

Isn't it? And it's too. It's just, I don't really, I think with anything kind, a CB, architectural, not using stars to rate yourself a particular skill. It's very subjective and you're not [00:33:00] going to take much from it, especially I think what Steven said, if you can just talk about your experience or professional revenue experience using it on a project, the type of project, the scale, the stages that there's just a short information about that it's going to do a lot more for any potential employers, then, a few star

Stephen Drew: levels.

You didn't know, I'm thinking out loud as well. That's if you, for instance, got certified and the rabbit course, that is a fact. So I think that has, we've seen that though. For instance, if someone's gone on ACAD professional rabbit license, then sorry, certified rabbit professional, I think that's what it is.

Then the reality is you must be good in some shape or form. And I think for me, that gets from my point is the more and more you can be literal, the mobile more, you can be factual. Then that is something that solves the problem. So for instance, so for me in the CV, it should be all about who you are, [00:34:00] what you've done and can you do it?

So for instance, if, when I send my CV, EPR invited me for an interview, because I said, I know MicroStation, I've been the Westminster and I've got a two, one I'm in London. Here's my contact details. Would you get me for an interview? And it was that combination that got me in and doing the interview.

They talked about MicroStation and picked it up, and they were. The CV gain those points across. And then when I got to the end of you and then you go, the portfolio is the bet you talk about for the next step. So the CV will, it is it's the gateways to get you in the interview and some, and then when you're in the interview, sometimes it can be the sole focus or it can be not talked about at all.

So for instance, on a client side role in architecture and a developer, they will just go for the CV. It's not a case of looking at the portfolio, but when you're a stay with them, the CV and the portfolio is what [00:35:00] really gets you get to going.

Jack Moran: And just on that as well, because we just had a question coming in from Sahara, which I think will be a nice question for you to answer actually.

And it refers to, what's the most commonly used software that we've experienced. And I imagine the answer is going to be relatively the same, but Stephen, you first, what do you think what's shown most for you over.

Stephen Drew: Rabbit is where it's at now, then. And that's purely because of the way projects are built anymore.

So at the time I used to use MicroStation and now it's all going towards Ben. So large practices predominantly use rabbit now, and it's, you've still got some practices which use AutoCAD MicroStation. The reality is though, for instance, the requirements I get in terms of recruitment, the briefs that me and we'll work on, usually rabbit is almost a prerequisite now.

So does the short answer for me is it's rabbit is the one that's going to get. [00:36:00] At ju more than likely Transcat the job. What do you think? Yeah, abs

Will Ridgway: absolutely rev, I think like you said, all the rows we get are predominantly river based, even practices that don't use wherever inherently they're setting things up to move over to rabbit because they don't want to be left behind in terms of the industry and with the government as well with shine making certain buildings, BIM level two it has to be in the feminine would SU then a lot of practices needs to use Revvit in order to be able to get out to them.

Number two, to then also win more projects in the future. So they don't want to be left behind. So there's actually a need for the industry for practices to move over to Brevard. So that is the main software to go to at the moment as the one that you should focus the most on, not to say that there aren't practices out there that aren't using MicroStation or Vectorworks, there are still out there, but the majority particularly large practice.

The bigger, the building, the more likely they're using rabbit for those for these types of jobs. Yeah.

Jack Moran: Excellent. And we've just had a follow question from Nauder on that. I want to point this one to you first [00:37:00] actually. So say I'm, a graduate and I haven't got that much experience on say using a particular software render, for example, do you think it's me wasting my time by applying for a role?

Or do you think that there are any practices that might, offer some training while you're.

Will Ridgway: It's absolutely not a waste of time. It's always better to apply and get rejected than not apply and never know it. You're not wasting your time, you're only wasting your time.

If you spend really long application, we need to do is just send that application across, let them decide. I've placed people who didn't have. I got and ends up getting Revvit training out there, new practice, despite the initial requirements, being that they used to have profit because their design skills Shaun through.

So it's actually always worth applying and then seeing where it goes. Of course, some practices will be upset and be like, no, we need some more Revvit because we have this immediate requirement we need this happened now and they don't have time for training, but I think particularly as well with students, [00:38:00] correct me if I'm wrong, Steven.

But I imagine when it comes to part, ones are part twos. The requirement for rev is probably a little bit less important compared to further up the chain because they're willing to invest in the students in the first place to train them up. And so naturally that comes with the software. I'd imagine.

Stephen Drew: Is that right?

I think it's a pre it's a prereq. It's not a prerequisite. The thing is though, if you've used it's more about your ability to learn almost. So for instance, if I was asleep, You don't need to be the beam expert, but what you need to do is you need to go to the interview and be like, I started on my own initiative to do a little bit, and you can see here that I've done two or three weeks of it really I'm learning.

And I think it's the eagerness to learn. So it's not so much as black and white. If you don't have it, you don't get for the door. Or what you should do is you want to show a lateral skills. You want to show the employer that you've used certain software and that you can learn this one. You want to show an eagerness, an appetite to then.

And that's where you really want to go with it. So I would always say that you can [00:39:00] always say that you have some exposure to revenue and you want to build it up from there. And I think that the way around it is that. It's almost sometimes you shouldn't wait for a job just to learn the catch 22, as I speak to people and they go, oh no, I'm not gonna do rabbit until someone I work on a rabbit project.

And really, if you just show a little bit of keenness and a little bit of ability to learn and challenge yourself and employ, normally take more of a chance on you than if for instance, you do not do rather than, and there's one thing to say, I want to, I want, I will use Revvit in my next job.

And I will then what you've actually got to do is do a little bit on your own accord and show that you're eager and hungry to learn.

Jack Moran: I think that's a big thing. Isn't it like going the extra mile to stand out and then there must be a lot of online resources for people who wish to bear themselves.

Such software. But I will say it, I think the big thing is, graduate level. It's not going to be such a [00:40:00] fundamental thing that you have to have X amount of experience because but like you said, the lateral skills are what makes a difference on there if you're showing that eagerness and that passion and you're, you're showing that you're serious about the role, then surely they're going to give you that platform.

Train you up on a particular software. So let's go going back to the sort of CVM portfolio. So now we now got a good CV looking nice and tidy. Now, this is an interesting question and I want to put to both of you and it comes to you the, about me and, the hobby section that you will often see on people's CVS.

And I can only say for myself, because I've worked on both architecture roles and a lot of support roles, office manager, HR roles, practice managers, and the about me section is always quite an interesting read, but I, what are your thoughts on it? Because for me, it's what actually shows you probably the most, character about, about that person,

Stephen Drew: but w when you're.

Yeah. I think it's important. And the thing is that what it does is it paints a picture of who you are as a person. And if I think [00:41:00] it's very different to see that you're involved in a charity or you're, that you're a part of an athlete's team than posting your instant. It's commendable, it's the, anything for instance that you do a and B that you enjoy as a human giving back, anything like that is really key.

So for instance, karate club, you could put that in, and this is a talking point. And I think for me, it's really important. So for instance, if I cause I grew up in Wales, for instance, if someone was really happy and really passionate about rugby and the, I was too, then that is a conversation piece.

And then you can almost show who you are as a person. And you get a little bit of an insight. That's very different though, to a social platform, a social profile. I think it's nice. So anything above than charity, anything giving back, I think is really key. What we don't need to know about though is the fact that.

And the hobbies that you might put down foods or video games. Yeah. I love video games, [00:42:00] we need a bit more than that. Give me, tell me a little bit about what your passion is in terms of maybe you like collecting vintage cars or who knows, or that you do wine tasting on the weekends.

If you're involved with a charity, that's great, but we need something a little bit. Something, which is a conversation point, which is a mundane. So we don't need to know that you like Lord of the rings. What we do need to know is that what you want, that you are involved and you give back to charity or you've mentored anyone, or you, if you've done anything volunteer ring, then that's interesting.

If you're part of a student society, brilliant, put that in. If you, for instance, enjoy going down the public, your mates, that's probably leave that out. We can that, then that doesn't need to be on there, yeah. Just keep it to keep it light, professional and showcase the stuff that you've done, which shows what you are like as a person.

Yeah.

Will Ridgway: Yeah. Something that you want to [00:43:00] keep it professional, a hobby, something that you wouldn't be surprised that they'd asked you in the interview to find out a bit more, for example, they don't even talk about, oh, tell me a bit more about the nights down on a Saturday night with your friends.

Tell me a bit more about that. They're gonna be talking about, you have a hobby is like your vintage collection, but oh what kind of stuff have you been collecting? Or if you've got like shared interests, like karate club and you're like, oh, I joined the career club as well. It actually helps you cause you kind of bond in the interview because of it.

And that increases that instant increases your chances of coming out of that interview with positive vibes. So keep it professional, keep it short. Keep it sweet though. Cause you don't want to take it's the option. It's the place to put your personality on your CV. But at the same time, you don't wanna take away from your your, of relevant work experience or your relevant education history as well.

So you don't wanna make it like the main focus is just. Short and sweet. Either at the top of the CV where you're about you section, or you may be at the bottom just to say,

Stephen Drew: I enjoy and the bottom, [00:44:00] I think like the tail-end, it's basically in the CV, you almost want to go the running order of your name, who you are, what your mission is, what education you've got in employment straight away.

And then you want to talk about software so that they know what software you've done, those skills. And then you want to talk about, in my opinion stuff, references, accomplishments, stuff like that. And then interests in crest would be like the tail end. So imagine it as if it's like the sweet note at the end, that you're the fact that you do volunteer and you saw that.

Ah, and then they go, that's the invite? Into an intense. Thanks. Absolutely.

Jack Moran: So we've got a couple of questions come in as well. They don't want to put us forward. One of these questions we did discuss yesterday is the idea of, COVID letters. Is it a good idea to attach one?

I think take it from yesterday sort of thing. We all agree with it. Doesn't hurt to have a cover letter because again, it is going a bit above and beyond is showing that extra effort. [00:45:00] But what Stephen do you think it's a fundamental difference in the cover letters are not

Stephen Drew: I'm country. I can't. I go back and forth is the truth.

I don't know how I feel about them. Sometimes. I do think if you have a polished CV and a beautiful cover and that which is elegant and a portfolio, he almost painted this picture of you. It's like this. Well-rounded almost nice work of art. And as an architect or design that if you can design a beautiful.

CVM portfolio and a cavern letter, then to me, that just shows you your design plan and you're cool with us and you want to care about it. So I think if you view it like that, it's really important. Do I think it's the difference between you getting the job or not? Probably not. So I think it's nice to do, but the emphasis, the CV is the core or it's the stranger.

So the CV is the backbone for everything. The CV gets the portfolio and the covering letter is not as valuable as the CV. So if it's not [00:46:00] there, it's not the end of the world. Does that make sense?

Will Ridgway: Yeah, I'm excited him. I always go back and forth. And so I'm going to stick with the opinion of maybe it's always worth making a cover letter, I think because some, Employers, they're really careful a covering letter, but others do so it's always worth having one handy.

So you don't have to quickly write one up. If you suddenly see a job advertisement that requests a covering letter, spend time on a stand by. So you can then just very end. Cause the last thing you want to do is about to apply for a job, then realize that they want you to do a covering lesser. So you have to write up a covering.

That's a get that then register as well as there's no spelling mistakes or anything like that. And it can take a little bit of time. And obviously, that time allows other people to apply for that job in between putting you on the back foot. So I think it's always worth making a covenant, but if you don't have a covenant, that's a, I don't think it's the end of the world, but I think some employees just like.

Stephen Drew: Quick things about covering letters, my sort of initial thoughts [00:47:00] that you don't want them too long, and they're not a replacement for the CV. So do not expect an employer to read something in the covering letter, which isn't on the CV and pick it up. The CV is the core organ. It's like the heart, the lungs, everything, and the covering letter is a supportive documents.

So it should be really quick and get the point across. It should think of it. What you want to do is bring the employer really quickly along the journey. So they need to quickly get to the CV, engage in the CV, and then look at the portfolio. The cover and latter really is that it's a covering letter of the CV and no caviar on that.

And the world will save you from problems in the CV. And also I think. So the format in my head is you have an email, which isn't too long. It's a few lines personalized to them. Then you attach a cabron letter, then you attach a CV. Then you touch the portfolio. They all need to be under 10 megabytes in case there they were.

They're th there's a file limit on, for instance, [00:48:00] the email off the employer, you want to make sure that you get the point across the other thing I'm just jumping into my head. The other thing we want is fantasize. You don't want the CV to be too big because you don't want to be cranky.

And then when you export the CV, you don't want it for instance, to be modeled in Photoshop and out or pixel, you need it to be eligible as well. And so it needs to be a CV file. It should be no bigger than what to magwell. Did you think? Let's keep it then. And that's my thoughts on this.

Jack Moran: Definitely. I think that's and like we were discussing yesterday as well, but how a lot of practices have their own, it systems in place. And a lot of potential employees, if they, for some reason, have a conflict or something where they can't view the CV or it's too big, that cloud system won't open it, nine times out of 10, they're probably just going to put that one aside, the applications that they have that work that fine, then they might come back to it.

If there is a need

Stephen Drew: to do you know what on that? Where I Jack, if it, and then don't put your CV on a, sit on a website and expect the employer to click [00:49:00] air and don't put it on like a Dropbox link or anything because people will not, and then it's more likely to be spam isn't name. So you want to put it in.

You want the role CV, you want PDFs all the way you want to. You want PDFs for every. Sorry. I just got, so I get so anxious about doing all this amazing work and then it doesn't get downloaded because it's on a, what's not one that we can't even open up. We transfer account open there. If someone sends us a CB from we transfer, I got to send it to 80.

I go raise a ticket on the system. Oh, I'm not going to there. So by the time I'm fed up, I, and then I'm annoyed people. I even open the CVL, which isn't good.

Jack Moran: Nah, that's such a big thing to think about. But I think a lot of people wouldn't, it's not really something. If you're a graduate applying for a role, you probably wouldn't be.

Stephen Drew: And the end, what if you know for about this stuff before, do not worry about it. This is the stuff that I picked up and learned over the [00:50:00] years. And this is based upon my experience now of. Can I convey it's about what works and what doesn't. So I just thought I'd have a question. Post. An issue of link is the same thing.

It's not that I'm. So Atlanta, my opinion is you do not send anything issue at all. You definitely send a CV and a PDF and a portfolio and a PDF because

Jack Moran: you're creating more work for the employer

Stephen Drew: and there's distractions, because issue, how does issue survive? There's those of adverts on there. You get distracted.

It's not real. So send a PDF because if the employee wants printed out, then they can print it out. You have to go. To back almost basic stuff. Try not to reinvent the wheel. If you've got your own purse, a website with stuff there. That's great. But the website really is an important document. And another don't is don't expect that your website with all the content is a clever way of a CV.

You are one of [00:51:00] these things that in the architecture industry, you should have a CV and a portfolio. And you know what? I agree. It's something nice about doing a beautiful document, a beautiful CV and portfolio, and they pack it before the COVID days. It's something you should be proud to take to an interview, almost like a document you don't, that it's something that you're proud with.

And the thing is with digital, with a website, It's almost not tangible. And so you want to cover the digital, but really this document, this CV needs to stand the test of being printed out and looking good and being presented. It needs to almost feel beautiful and tangible and real, and the PDF, at least then the person can download it.

And then you take the nice version. If you've got your fi if you've got your file on like a Dropbox somewhere, or you've got your website and you've got no CV in portfolio, I just don't think it has the same kind of feel. Yeah,

Jack Moran: definitely. And he talks about

Stephen Drew: [00:52:00] yeah,

Will Ridgway: just just avoid links.

That's literally all, I would say, just avoid links,

Jack Moran: my experience. So it doesn't even with these two links, we've we all get sent easy links and our Mimecast, which is our all internal cloud it system that will always mock here as well. And then Chris will work for us. So it's always, we're put ourselves as the employer will, you'll be the same as well.

It's just going to really put them off. Isn't it just giving them

Stephen Drew: for me. The CV needs to support all your beautiful work and it needs to communicate who you are. That's the brief. If you boil it down, the CV should illustrate your fantastic design skills and who you are and that you should get. Ideally, get someone excited to meet you.

That's the brief, that's the intention to get you in a, in an interview where you can convey to the, you can have a chat with the employer. And I think that the CV that's the core mission and anything that subtracts from. [00:53:00] It's not good. Always think when you're doing it. Why are you suing this warrior you show?

And you want to showcase your grades. You've got, you want to show your design ability and fly. And if you have done, for instance, volunteering work and you've given back then, great, you want to show that. And if you've learned rabid on your own accord while studying then brilliant young, ambitious.

So we really want, you want to get the point across. It needs to be oozing with who you are. And if, for instance, it's really hard to understand who you are or it's. So things go on too long, or they're not clear and dates are match, I'm losing confidence and I'm losing the excitement. And so I think it's about making that quick impression.

It's me. And I usually announce you all the time. Sadly, we're almost in this culture of swipe to the left swipe, to the right, like tender. And I think that you want the CV that kind of. Quickly make that impression and then have the information there with someone can delve in to get you an interview. You do [00:54:00] not want to be a swipe to the, is it right?

Jack is out. Yeah. You don't want to be blocked by not having good contact information or way to get a hold of you and they just go, they give up. That's a great analogy

Jack Moran: though. Stephen, if you think about it, because at the time you would spend looking at someone's Tinder profile is near enough, the same amount of time that an employer might look through your CV.

It's either going to go into the yes. Pile to the no pile. So it's your job to make sure that your shortly stand up

Stephen Drew: tenders or more than that. But if you think about it, the human psychology, when I go on a website, I've got five seconds and my scan and think where am I going? Do I like this website?

And will, can I find what I want? And if I come in this confusing or I get frustrated when clicking a link or it doesn't work, what else. You go to another website and it's the same concept of you need, you want the employer to invite you to the, of the day, that's the goal. You have to make it easy for them.

And the way to do it. It's the kind [00:55:00] of follow the stuff we talked about before clear and concise. And hopefully then you will secure that interview. What you don't want to do has been swiped for the right, because you've got what's out there so far. Doesn't have an image in the background, have wrong dates, do not talk about having a carrier in the evening, do not show your Instagram thing that, if you've got 10,000 followers, that's great.

Do not put it on there. You want it. You want it to focus on who you are as a person. What you've done, architecturally, who, what you get excited about, what software you've learned, your ability to learn software and the fact that you're, you want to work with that. And you're excited.

And the fact that if they hired you, then they've got someone who is a real go getter and adds value to the.

Jack Moran: I think that's a good point is there is a matching came in with a couple of questions. The second one talking about, should the CV, that should be the simple, clear format. And then portfolio is that way.

She demonstrate his skills. Like Steven said before, the CV is very much a [00:56:00] professional document. You wanted to detail, to have the content as to what you've done within the role, what software utilize, what stages you worked on keep it professional and keep it concise as well.

And then when it goes to the portfolio, that's where you're going to be able to show a bit more of your technical drawings, your design skills. And that can be a bit more visual. Having said that we've all seen portfolios in the past that have just been far too much. It's almost like reading a lot of the rings book or something.

It's a hundred pages in length and it's just never going to catch the eye of any employers, obviously graduates. So naturally going to have a much shorter. Portfolio, keep it keep, remember, it's all about dangling that carrot in front of employers get the initial interest so that if you do secure the interview, once you go in there, you're going to be able to serve yourself in a different light.

Stephen Drew: I agreed and I think this let's take a step back. And so CVS, they summarize keep it simple dues. It needs to support who you are. Get, write the [00:57:00] details down, get your any architectural stuff that you've done, professional experience at the front and make it clear what it's about.

And you want to, for instance, go for all your education, get it on there. And your grades put the software that you're learning and as well do put down relevant hobbies and any achievements that you've done and make sure that you've got your contact details and referrals there. But with all of this stuff, this is just my opinion, from my perspective, different employers.

We're all human beings. We have different thoughts about what works and what doesn't. So the, I would take from this as, this is just my opinion, based upon what I've seen. If you have any questions or thoughts, or if you're wondering anything in particular. So on the architecture, social, write a comment.

We are, we will all try to do, we will try to get back to you and let you know what we think, but for me I don't really have anything more to go into. What do you think? Yeah, absolutely

Will Ridgway: clear, [00:58:00] concise. Get your grammar right. And make it look pretty. But I think subtle is always better than a CV.

That's

Stephen Drew: my thing. Cool. All right. I'll try to smile a bit more next time. This is the first one. So it was a little bit nervous. Sorry guys. I seem so serious. I got a little bit nervous getting on here as they are

Jack Moran: now, but hopefully that was be helpful for the graduates. It's the CBN portfolio is a big thing, yeah, unless there's anything to add from you guys. That's grass.

Will Ridgway: I think we've covered a finish. How many questions? Last night. We'll

Stephen Drew: answer. Thank you so much, everyone. Thanks for hosting. And thank you well for working out to do this and thanks for putting up with me guys to the best team. Love you both.

That's why hide you? Very good.

Will Ridgway: Alright then. Thank you everyone. Have a good weekend.

Jack Moran: Bye. Take care, everyone. Bye-bye.