Can an Architectural Technologist run a successful Architecture Business? Ft. Jon Clayton

Can an Architectural Technologist run a successful Architecture Business_ Ft_ Jon Clayton
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone! My goodness, London Build is over, my voice is wrecked, but the show goes on! That's right, I can't wait. Christmas round the corner, can you hear it? In Asda's, they're already playing the Christmas music! What's going on? Anyways. Back to the show, 20 seconds. We're going to learn about the other side of architecture here.

It's not all about the architects, oh my God. My, my bell is loud today. Love it. Seven seconds. Hello everyone. And welcome to this live stream special. I am so excited you're here. It's Friday. If you're down in the pub and you're [00:01:00] watching the replay, I'll let you off. But for everyone else. Let's just burn an hour, half an hour, whatever it is, relax, and talk about something interesting. Now, I've got an amazing guest here today, and what I wanted to talk about in architecture, it's not just architects, we have architectural designers, architectural assistants, we have architectural technicians, and we have architectural technologists, and I want to learn about people who are not ARB qualified, who are not pretending they're architects, so ARB, we're in the clear here.

But I want to learn about entrepreneurs and professionals who are doing things themselves, setting up their businesses, who are not an architect. And on that note, I have the fantastic John Clayton here. John, how are you, sir? Welcome to the podcast.

Jon: I'm very well, thank you Stephen, it's good to be here.

Stephen Drew: I'm glad you're here. And because my voice is going, you're going to help me through this as well. And I know that you're a podcaster yourself, and we're going to get [00:02:00] to that in a bit. But for everyone else that doesn't know you, has not met you yet, can you tell me a little bit about who you are?

Jon: Okay. My name's John Clayton. I'm a chartered architectural technologist. I run my own small practice working from my home in Norfolk. I'm originally from Lancashire. If you may have guessed that I'm not a Norfolk boy originally. And I started my, career in architecture, right from leaving school, way back in the mid nineties.

I started working in a local practice and then I've worked at a few of the practices since then I've worked overseas. And then around about 12 years ago, I set up my own business and that's what I've been doing ever since. That's mainly working with homeowners that are doing home extensions and home renovation projects.

So that's kind of me in a quick nutshell.

Stephen Drew: I love it, and you did it well. Although You missed out some of the cool stories about you in Australia. I'm going to get to them a bit later because I [00:03:00] love them. While we were speaking though, John, we already got lots of people saying hellos. My goodness, I think everyone's feeling the Friday spirit. We can all relax, chill out.

I'm not going to tell your boss or anything if you're watching this. I'm going to tell it. It's just us. So we're all friends here now, John, let's go back into that because before you set up your business, I love some of the stories as well. You've been halfway around the world, right? So tell me quick for one or two minutes about early adventures as a technologist.

You left the UK for a bit, right? How did that go?

Jon: I did. Yeah. God, this would, this is going back a few years now. I decided I'd had this dream about going backpacking. And by this point I was already, fairly well established in my early career. I was in my early twenties and I was doing my thing working on architectural projects and I thought, I was hoping I wasn't going to end up Just working, I don't know working behind a bar or something.

I thought while I'm on my travels, maybe I could get some work in an architecture [00:04:00] practice or two. And that's exactly what I did. I went off and yeah I bought myself a round the world ticket. And partway through that trip, I ended up in Australia and I was fortunate enough to be able to work at a couple of great practices over in Oswalt, over in Kent, Total Project Group, and down in Melbourne I2C down in Melbourne as well.

And I had a great time there, really good people.

Stephen Drew: It sounds good. And I remember you saying that one practice, they invite you in, you have barbecues and stuff. And that, I think that's really important, isn't it? And in companies that it's good fun, they're welcoming. You've got to have a bit of a laugh in architecture because otherwise it can get a little bit too serious sometimes.

I think.

Jon: absolutely. Yeah. I have really fond memories, particularly of ITC in Melbourne. So shout out to the guys there, which they're still there doing amazing work. And that was a really great office environment to work in really cool, friendly people there. They had a really diverse team and yeah, the first day that I arrived, it was like, [00:05:00] John, mate.

You've timed it perfect. You've come here the first day and it's our monthly barbecue. So you can help out, go stick some shrimps on the barbie and help out with that. And then yeah the most fantastic thing that I loved was that they had beer on tap at the office. That's the one and only architecture office that I've worked at that had beer on tap.

And actually, ironically. It wasn't what you might think. It wasn't just like a sort of party atmosphere. The people there worked really hard. And I worked probably harder at that company than probably any of the other places, because it was very much a sort of work hard, play hard kind of attitude.

And at the end of the day or the end of the week, the bosses say, John, have a cold beer. Come on out. Come on, let's. Down tools. Let's go and sit and have a beer outside and we'd socialize and get to know each other. So yeah, it was fantastic.

Stephen Drew: maybe there you go. There you go. I think at first people were like, Oh, what was the name of that company? ITC, whatever. And then when you said the. The beers were on tap, the shrimps and the barbie, I think everyone's [00:06:00] starting, maybe there's a few applications from the

Jon: Yeah. They're all applying for the visas now.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it sounds like me too. I'm ready. Get me out of here. But while we're speaking, my goodness, they're with, we've got people in the crowd. I think everyone's feeling the Friday spirit. We got laughs. We got a hellos and read my girlie. I think is when I was talking about the pub, he was like, I have a good feeling that the answers to the question of where we are, what we're doing, having the beer is hell yes, oof, and he's looking forward to this episode now.

Don't get plastered red, Michael, because you've got to make it to the end, John's got some actual tips here about businesses and stuff, which are going to be useful, but don't worry. Nothing too intense for a Friday thing.

Jon: It's all right though, Stephen, if they have a few drinks, then it might improve the experience. I might sound better. Yeah, please have a couple of beers and then listen to the

Stephen Drew: Yay! I, maybe that's the only reason I've survived as well is that people, they have a little beer and stuff and they think, oh, we can endure this Welsh accent. We can put up with him a little [00:07:00] bit longer. Anyways, I digress. Now, one of the things I wanted to ask John as well, before we go into it, is You're a technologist, and you mentioned you got into the industry earlier.

When, there's a choice, isn't it, that we all make? We think, what do we, how do we want to go into architecture? And I went for the architect's route. I don't know overly why, I just did. I never, ever thought about being a technologist. And I'm always interested how people go down different routes and stuff.

What made where did that, where did you think, do you know what, I'm going to do technology.

Jon: That's a brilliant question. Okay. So way back when I was at school. And year 11, high school, and, you go to see the careers office area and they ask you, what subjects do you enjoy? I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do really when I left school. And he said what do you enjoy doing at school?

What are you good at? And I'm like my best subjects were IT and graphical design. We used to do tech drawing. It's one of the subjects on GCSE. [00:08:00] And we had to look at some options there. And, it was like you could be an architect, okay, and I looked at how long the the training period was and I started reading a little bit about it and it seemed to be very kind of art based, if you like, a sort of art based angle to architecture and it didn't I don't know, it didn't resonate with me as much.

And then I was talking to my family about it and they said, Oh we know someone that works in architecture. You need to speak to our family friend, Gary. He works in architecture, but he actually isn't an architect and he's really successful. He's working at this practice in Manchester.

He's does a lot of work with Manchester United. He works on some really big projects on some exciting stuff. Why don't you go and have a chat with him and find out what he does? So I went and met with Gary and he fired up his computer and he showed me the drawings and designs that he'd been working on.

And he told me about all these really exciting and [00:09:00] interesting building construction projects that he was working on. And he was an architectural technologist. And I was like. I'd never even heard of that. Like, why have I not heard of being an architectural technologist? And I thought that's the road for me.

And that's, was the start of it.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. And maybe one quick one to add on to that then as well, because first time that I've done a degree in Diploma in Architecture, granted it was a while ago, and you're right, there was the technical aspect. However, like you said, design theory, all that stuff comes into it. Very important, that, that approach in terms of technology as a course, how does it then work, John?

Is it similar to architecture where you did, in architecture, you got your part one, your part two, three years, then two years, and then you're in the industry. What does studying technology looks like?

Jon: That's a great question.

There are different routes into it. The route that I took might not be the same road that you go down [00:10:00] if you're interested in getting into architectural technology. A common route is that there are degrees available now that are, architectural technology degrees.

So that can be one route. You go to university that can either be a full time basis, or it can be part time alongside working within a practice and getting some practice experience, you do your degree. And then you go through an application process with CIAT to get yourself chartered. And usually there's there's quite a long detailed written application process that you need to go through.

There's a lot of information you have to put together to demonstrate competency in various aspects of your profession. And then you need to go for a professional interview down in London. The way that I did it was slightly different because at the time when I was Getting qualified there, there wasn't that degree available as far as I'm aware and I actually started off by going to college.

I did an ONC in building studies, then a HNC in building studies, then I contacted 50 states. B I A T at the [00:11:00] time, that was when it was the British Institute before they got chartered and they said, Oh, great. Were you on the way, but there's a few extra things that you need to study. So I then did distance learning through Bolton Institute, the university up there, and I studied another five or six different topics via distance learning to get me to the point where I was able to apply to be chartered.

And actually. To be perfectly honest, after that, um, it actually took me a little while to get chartered, not because I couldn't do it, but it was at that stage in my early twenties when I then decided to go off backpacking and then life got in the way, marriage, family, all of that sort of thing.

Stephen Drew: And I had unlimited beers on the taps. That allowed a few blurry weeks and stuff. But, I like that. It does, that I agree that sometimes, some people might want to power through the course. Some people take their time. I don't think there's a right or a wrong way to do it.

And actually, sometimes getting that extra experience. It [00:12:00] can mean that when you come onto the course, you feel fully prepared. Whereas some people I do know, and they do it, they feel like they rush through it. Would you share that sentiment then, John?

Jon: Absolutely. I think that the. The grounding that I had, particularly with the route of essentially it was a bit like an apprenticeship. I don't think it was called that, but it was four days working in practice and one day a week going off to college to study. And that route of doing it was a really good foundation for me because I learned so much.

I'd learned like the theory side of things at college, but actually putting it into practice and having the opportunity. Working in a small local practice to be able to learn from and be mentored by the other staff there. That was an amazing opportunity and it was one of those practices where you're really busy and you thrown in at the deep end and they'd get you actually producing work and working on projects from the very start.

So that was a really good kind of grounding.

Stephen Drew: Well done. Sounds really good. And so I know that you work [00:13:00] for quite a few years in the industry as well. Now, at some point, you have that little voice in your head. You thought, you must have thought about setting up your own business because you did. You went and done it. Can you tell me about that next step in your journey, where that came from, and how it might have felt at the time?

Jon: Oh, geez, that's a good question. These are all good questions. Yeah, I can share a bit about that. So I've been working at a practice in Lancashire, worked at a couple of different practices and up until that point, it had always felt my. Job, my career was very secure and I'd had the same kind of frustrations that often we have working in a practice.

Sometimes you feel a little bit like, maybe you feel like you've hit the glass ceiling and maybe you're struggling to progress and you want him to either progress professionally. Or you're wanting to earn more money, or you're just wanting more out of your career. And so I've had that [00:14:00] sort of nagging at me for a little while, but the crux of it, when it really happened was, I was unfortunately made redundant.

This would be back around the year after we'd had the recession. I think it would have been like 2009 or something around that kind of time. And I was really lucky. Like I had some connections in other practices and within a week I had a job at another practice. And that may have been where the story ended.

I may have just carried on working in the other practice, but I then had this feeling of Oh I've always had this like job security and now I'd felt like I didn't have it anymore. And I'd moved to this other practice and I still have this feeling of I think the added pressure of being a parent as well at the time when I was made redundant, I had an 18 month old daughter.

I had a mortgage to pay, I had bills to pay and when I moved to this other practice, I had to it was costing me more money to commute to this practice. So there was a lot of financial pressure and it was all those kinds of reasons together that, made me [00:15:00] think maybe I should start something.

Maybe I should have a side hustle. Maybe I should. I should have create something that could grow for the future, but also help top up my salary and help pay the mortgage and feed the family in the meantime as well. And prior to that, I had, I think like many people working in architecture, there'd always been the kind of friends that had said, Hey, John, we're doing a house extension or a loft conversion.

Do you think you can help us with this? And, so I'd always done. Private jobs. That was something that kind of a lot of people do. But then when I decided to make it a proper business, even on a part time basis, I did actually go and speak to my boss about it as well.

And I did say, look I'm thinking of doing this thing. I don't want there to be any conflicts of interest. Is it okay?

Stephen Drew: So you took the jump. You took the jump. And congrats. I think taking the jump is important. The Architecture Social is my third business. The first two failed [00:16:00] spectacularly for different reasons. I'll be honest, especially when I was doing my first business, I didn't feel like there was much there.

Now you do have a community and we're going to talk about that cause you've set up the Architecture Business Club, but just before we go to all that, even though I think it's really important, how was it at the time then John, I'll bring up your current business as well, but was there much resources around?

Where do you even, how do you even begin set up an architecture business as a technologist? What did you, where did you think, right? Where do I start? What resources are there? What do you do?

Jon: That's a great question. I started off, I had a really good friend at the time that had a digital marketing agency, and I went and had a chat with him about the website. He sorry, about the business, about this idea.

Stephen Drew: I've got the wrong link up as well, John. There you go. My goodness. It's Friday. Sorry. You can go to the CIT's website, but John's website where his [00:17:00] business is on the screen, mrjohnclayton. co. uk. Carry on, John.

Jon: so that's the current website. It's gone through all sorts of different versions and changes, since 12 years ago, starting up. But that was one of the first things that I did. And he said you know what you need to do? There's this organization. It was one of these like business growth.

Organizations with one of the local councils and they had some funding available for startups and new businesses and lots of resources. And you could go in and you could speak to one of their business mentors. You could share your idea with them. They gave me this workbook and I didn't know anything.

About starting a business. So they gave me this workbook and I started working through it and it was asking you all sorts of questions about who's it for, why are you starting the business who you're going to serve, what's your USP, what are your projections? There was all sorts of these things that I started thinking about.

And then what happened was my perfectionism crept in and I spent probably the best part of a year whilst I was working at [00:18:00] this other practice. Working on this business plan that I was putting together. And, it took me nearly a year to actually get to the point where I actually officially even launched my side hustle.

And that's the sort of thing that some people would probably just do over a weekend. They could start it really quickly, but because of my nature, maybe again, that's perhaps another reason why I was drawn to being a technologist, because that's quite handy if you're doing a lot of work on.

Stage four technical design on architecture projects. It's quite a good trait, but it's not a great trait where you want to get things done and get them finished and get them out into the world. So I spent ages working on that and eventually, I said to my friend, that I wanted to get it all done because I could, I was able to apply for some funding and then we worked out a bit of a deal and he just said, look, mate, I can do you a deal if you want the website.

We'll do a deal, mate's rates, we'll get it done. That's going to save you more money than what that funding was going to cover anyway. So let's just get it done. And that's what [00:19:00] happened. We got the website done. And I put it out there and then I waited like for some inquiries to start coming in.

Stephen Drew: How was that? How do you get inquiries then, John? What's the, maybe some of the mistakes you've made and some of the wins you've got, how did you get your word out there initially of your business at the start?

Jon: Okay. So to begin with,

Stephen Drew: Hoping and praying, and then more.

Jon: Please come and buy something from me. That's pretty much how it was. I think I had, I didn't realize at the time I had this luxury of the fact that I was working in this other practice. So I was working five days a week in this other practice. I had a wage coming in and I had the luxury of time to be able to just let some inquiries trickle in.

And the things that I thought of, because I was setting this side hustle up and it wasn't my full time business, I thought, how can I set this up in a way so that I can deal with inquiries, if inquiries come in. A couple of the things that I did is I set up a, I set up a virtual [00:20:00] office address.

This is a really common thing. Anybody can do it. You can set this up tomorrow. I set up a virtual office in my local town. I had an address there. I also, through a local business center, I found somebody that also offered call answering, they found they offered a call answering service as well as the office address.

So I got that set up and then I thought, so if anybody gets in touch, if I'm working at the office nine till five. Someone's going to answer the phone for me, ping me a message. And then what happened was over time, people started to notice the website. They started to find me. They'd find the, I put a listing on Google maps.

So when people were looking for a local architecture practice, my name was one of the names that came up. And then what I realized is that even though there was many other local practices that actually their presence online was really poor. And it actually, even as a startup. It didn't take too long to actually build quite a good presence and.

What I did is I went to those first few customers and I said, [00:21:00] Hey, can you leave me a testimonial? Are you pleased with the work? How did it all go? And yeah, I just, I kept asking people and I started getting some great reviews. And then over time that just built up and it got to the point where I really didn't, I didn't have to spend any money on advertising.

And I just had inquiries that just used to come in every single week. People used to read. The reviews, that social proof that I was doing a good job and they used to just keep getting in touch. And then it just became a word of mouth thing, which actually led to some problems later down the line, which we might come on to in a little while.

Stephen Drew: Oh yeah, people got to stick around for that. You've been told you want the secret. You got to wait another 10 minutes for it. Just while we're on that note, I've been enjoying in the backgrounds. One or two more comments comes in. Sondra mentions that he says, hello. He just says he just got into the CIAT as an affiliate member.

Great. I didn't know about that. Maybe I'll check if I can. I don't know if I can [00:22:00] be affiliated as well, because I like being a part of these things. So you get to see stuff, then you go, what's going on? Anyways, he mentions he joined there as a member two months ago. John, he would like you to be his mentor.

Putting it out there. Cough. Sondra. John's got something coming up, which would be really useful. I got one question before we talk about the Architecture Business Club though, John in particular, which I think is really important. You touched upon the side hustle,

Jon: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: main job, and there's that scale, isn't it?

You're right. The main job's great because that's the revenue becomes there, but potential in the side hustle, and it's growing, and it's starting to get growing, and then there's a point, I think, where the side hustle, it can't really progress more, unless you give up the main hustle or you switch it around and I found that to be incredibly scary, especially the first time because you go, what was your tipping point like?

And how did you find that experience of going? I'm going to double down and leave my full time job to pursue [00:23:00] my own practice.

Jon: I'll paint the picture for you. So it would have been 20, it would have been 2013 when I was still doing both things at the practice that I was working at they'd finished a couple of major projects and things started to get a little quiet for them. We got put on a four day working week. And at the time my own business was growing and I just thought.

Great. That's brilliant. I can do that four days a week there. I've got an extra day to work on my own things. And I was still doing evenings and weekends. And the reality of it was that I was getting up in the morning. I'd go downstairs. In my pajamas and I'd fire up my computer and I'd do an hour or so of work on my own projects.

Then I'd get in my car, I'd drive for an hour to the office. I do a full day there, an hour back, and then I do the same thing again when I got home and I'd be working on the weekends as well. And I did this for quite a while. And at the same time, my wife and I, [00:24:00] we were, we had two young children. We were planning a wedding as well.

We were getting married that year and I was getting. I was getting to the point where I didn't hit burnout, but if I'd carried on going in the way that I was going, that's where I was heading. And I remember in early 2014, it was just after new year, some friends of ours came over and this is a really good friend of mine, Dan Brown, give him a shout out from DBA Architects up in Lancashire.

Dan and his wife came round and we were talking about it. And I just said, I'm just so stressed. I just, I can't keep doing it. And they said, you don't have to keep doing it. Why don't you just leave your job? Just, you can do it. You've got it. You've got this job. Just leave your practice.

How do you notice it? Just have some faith in yourself. And it was that little nudge at the time that I needed. And as long the other thing was that there was actually quite a decent sized job that came in [00:25:00] around about the same time. And I thought that's going to tide me over for maybe the next three months.

And I thought as a new business going full time. That's probably about as good as it's going to get in terms of forecasting things ahead. And I just did it. I went and I talked to my boss and I said, I love working with you guys, but I'm going to, I'm going to start this thing now. I'm going to do this full time.

Stephen Drew: Good

Jon: that was that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. There's, I'm glad you had one project away, you over three months. It, there is the leap of faith and I do think that if you overthink it, you can almost talk yourself out of it, because there is a lot of risks. I do think it's harder for a person with a family as well with where the mortgages, all this stuff is built upon having.

Asset instead of income. I think it gets harder. So congratulations for doing that. Now, on that note, so you've got your main business now. When we met, and we [00:26:00] met at the CIAT Awards, which was a great awards, by the way. CIAT, I think, you did a good job. RIBA, need to take note. That's controversial, but I'm just being honest.

It was a really good party. And there I learned about your podcast and your other business as well. So I've been learning it backwards cause I was like, Oh, so you've got this architecture business club. Oh, you've got your own business. And then we talked about all your stuff. So you've got another adventure that you're doing now as well.

Tell us about that, John, while I bring up the links and stuff.

Jon: Yeah, cool. Firstly I have, I'm still practicing. So I have an existing small practice. I'm a sole practitioner. I do pretty much everything myself with a little bit of help from outsourcing team that helps me out on with various bits and pieces, and that's working with home renovation clients doing extension projects, essentially.

The new thing though, the Architecture Business Club I really struggled, I think, as a [00:27:00] technologist and as a small business owner being the owner of your own business, it can be a really lonely place. And there's been, I didn't realize until I started working on my own, how much I miss my co workers, even some of those ones that really used to wind you up, you think actually being around other people that get you and understand you and having that camaraderie and working amongst a team of other people, that's a big thing when you move to go and work on your own, it can be really tough.

So I, I've been looking for. Places, communities, places online where I could connect with other people that are in the industry. And one of the interesting things that I found was that, all of the websites, resources, memberships, communities that I could find online, they all seem to be either made by architects or Just for architects.

In fact, there's quite a few of them that explicitly say that this is, you [00:28:00] have to be an architect to join this club.

Stephen Drew: Right.

Jon: you're not, you can't join. And I just thought, you know what? I love architects. Architects are awesome. So are technologists. And there's some great technicians out there and other professionals.

They might not have the same professional qualification, but it doesn't mean that they're not equally talented or have got something to offer. And the other thing as well is that. Often they have different ways of doing things. I'm been working quite a bit with a small architectural design firm.

And they do things totally differently to other people. And that's because they're not following this kind of roadmap from the RIBA, for example, and they're doing things their own way and okay. Not everything's better that they're doing, some things are not perfect, but I just thought, what if we could bring everyone together, if we had a place where we could go, where we could share knowledge and encourage collaboration between the different professions within [00:29:00] architecture, it feels it feels very fractured and it feels like often, you've got the RIBA gang in one corner.

You've got CIAT CIOB, we're all in these little separate little factions and I just think. Why can't we all just work together a bit more, share what we know a bit more, socialize together a bit more, because that's when the magic happens. When you start working together and collaborating, you can really fast track your own success.

And that's how this podcast was born. It's the Architecture Business Club. It's for solo and small firm architecture practice owners who want to build a better business, who want to, get tips and tactics from other people. And again. Part of the reason for this as well is that I haven't got this all sewn up.

I am not, I'm not sat here with my Ferrari outsize, working free, four hours. I'm not doing the four hour work week like Tim Ferriss, I still haven't got this nailed. And there's other people out there [00:30:00] that have far more expertise than I have. So I'd basically just holding my hand up saying, Hey guys, you lot that know how to do this running an architecture practice thing, running a business and doing the digital marketing and all those things that we need to learn how to do.

You're doing it better than I am. So why don't you come on my podcast? Why don't you chat with me? And why don't we share that knowledge with everybody else in the industry? So that's what it's for. That's exactly who it's for.

Stephen Drew: I love it. I think it's great. I think it's it's very needed. And I just want to remind the listeners that no content on the Architecture Social is sponsored. I'd like to Bring on things which I really like, and I think that there is this need for this, as you say, especially small to medium business owners, or around, it's very hard, or solopreneurs, it's very hard to get all this knowledge.

So I think it's really important. And the only other thing I would add, John, is don't you worry, I agree. And in terms of myself, I am forever a part two architectural [00:31:00] assistant, so I can't call myself an architect. So I'm in the middle with you, I'm in there. I'm around,

Jon: You can join the club, Stephen. You're welcome. You're welcome. Anytime. In fact, actually, I, we need to tell everybody that Stephen has actually already been we've recorded an interview together and there's going to be an episode with Stephen and it's, he's absolutely on fire on this episode. It's brilliant.

And it's going to be going out next month on the podcast. I'm really excited to share that with everybody.

Stephen Drew: oh, that's cool, and you're very sweet, it was a good laugh, and hopefully there are some nuggets in there, but I guess the episode we talked about was saving money on recruitment fees, and how to attract people, how to get people, and there's that tricky spot, isn't it, John, if you first hire in a business, whether you are a freelancer, a contractor, someone permanent, how do you do that, because That is a very big job, but having gone through it myself in this business the last year, It's amazing.

It's [00:32:00] transformative. It's very difficult and can be expensive as well. So I did enjoy talking about that for our audio listeners. When we talk about the Architecture Business Club, you find it at www. architecturebusinessclub. com. You should check it out and subscribe and all that cool stuff on that note.

Rich Ricardo says, very inspiring. You haven't heard my episode yet, no, I'm only joking. John will have edited me to perfection, so he will have recovered the conversation anyways.

Jon: don't bank on it.

Stephen Drew: no, I hope it does well for you. I would know. I think it's going to be really good.

While we were talking, there was a few more things in the audience that came in. There was one question around CIAT. I don't really know the answer myself, John. I'm not too sure. And someone in the audience has commented and answered as well, but I'm going to bring it up. And if you want to add any comments to it.

Jonathan, great. But Paul says he'd be interested to [00:33:00] know if the Charlotte Institute of Architectural Technologies is imposing similar mechanisms of monitoring as the ARB and the RIBA. And given the Building Safety Act gave statutory powers to the ARB and the architect competence, unlike any other building professional, whether this will or will not impact CIAT down the line.

Now, Lee Smith says, yes. They are details to be published in January. I'll be honest, that was above my technical level of forte.

Jon: Yeah Lee's right, yeah. Yeah, listen to Lee's right.

Stephen Drew: so Lee's right. Is there anything else you want to add to that, Sean, in the

Jon: Not particularly other than I just think it's under the time, like when the, the CDM regulations got updated in 2015. Everyone's scrambling to find out what the impact is. And it's like, how is it that this, how is it that these new legislations come out on a given day?

And. [00:34:00] Like, how we'd not, how do we not all know what we're supposed to be doing prior to the date when it starts? It just seems ludicrous.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I think so. I think you might, we might have stumbled on an upcoming episode for you on the Architecture Business Club on how do we deal with that because the people in the audience have talked about it. Now I want to loop around quickly because you dropped earlier that word of mouth was a blessing and a burden and I'm not going to get you, let you get away with that.

Even though I'm tired after London Build, I still remembered it. How did word of mouth then sometimes Go against you. Was it 'cause people weren't putting it in writing? Is that what you were saying?

Jon: No so word of mouth, like if you rely on word of mouth and referrals for new business, and that, let's be honest, that's how most small businesses operate. That's where most, if you speak to a small business owner, whether it's architecture, whether it's something else, often that's where the work comes [00:35:00] from.

It's word of mouth. Oh we spoke to so and so down the road and they recommended you, or, you got recommended by so and so from wherever. But. That's fine and that can work very well. But what happened to me was in 2016, my, my wife and I, my family, we decided to relocate from Lancashire

Stephen Drew: oh,

Jon: So we relocated and what had happened is when I'd had my original vision, like if we go rewind right back to the start of the episode, we were talking about when I was doing my business plan and I had this big vision. My vision to begin with was that I was going to create this. Amazing online based architectural design service.

It was way ahead of its time. There was only one or two other people out there that did it and they weren't doing a particularly great job of it. And since then, there's, there's other big companies that are making a lot of money doing that. That was my original vision. What happened was I went off on this sideline, what the [00:36:00] inquiries that started coming in I did get inquiries from all over the country, from London, from, the home counties, from Lancashire, from all over.

But what I found was that it was always easier. To win the jobs that were around the corner because I could go and see them. Oh, it's oh we really wanted somebody local. And then what happened is my business just turned into any other local architecture practice where essentially your niche is that I serve a 15 mile radius of where the office is.

And that was my niche. So what happened was when we wanted to relocate, all of my business was built on this word of mouth marketing, word of mouth referrals all around Lancashire. And all of a sudden I found myself living in Norfolk thinking what do I do now? Because, like I don't have any local customers.

There were a few things I could do. Like I was able to quickly set up another virtual office address. I was able to move the map listing. But it wasn't like I could, I knew much about the local [00:37:00] area or I could say, Oh yeah, go and speak to, go and look at that project that we finished down the road.

All the case studies and examples that I had were all from that area. So it ended up being a real challenge. Had I had another mechanism, another way for people to find out about me, another product or service that I was able to offer people, then that wasn't based on just this word of mouth. Marketing, then that might have really helped tide me over because it was a real struggle after that move to get established in a new place.

It was a real challenge.

Stephen Drew: Oh, painful. I, but what a great lesson. I think that's the second episode if you haven't done it already, that I think you need to cover that in depth on how to solve that scenario. 'cause you're right, people move. And also it's quite interesting is would it be similar. Post pandemic, would it be exactly the same?

Would it be, are people more accustomed to things being online now? I don't know. [00:38:00] It'd be quite interesting as well. What was I going to say? I was going to ask a question around. Having done that and a few other things as well, before we wind down, I know you might have one or two more questions for me and the audience, because you're quite lively, my goodness, everyone's saying, because Lee answered the question, he helped us out, the third guest, was your episode, John, Lee's doing a good effort, we're giving brownie points, people are saying, you've got to listen to Lee Smith, and everyone's having a giggle as well, crikey, Friday, I've learned as well, this is quite, There's quite a lively audience, I'm enjoying it.

Now you can ask any questions you want to John, we got them for a few more minutes, so get them in quick if you got them, or if you're too blotted with your beer, that's fine, don't worry. I was gonna say John, on that note of talking about 2023 and all this stuff and things shifted around. You mentioned that case to you, you're going into the podcast and you dissecting [00:39:00] things, but the immediate one or two bits of tidbits of advice, if there was someone like, like yourself, who's a technologist who's setting up a business, are there one or two things that you would tell people to do, or one or two quick mistakes you tell them to avoid?

Jon: There's plenty of mistakes that I've made but I'll probably cover those on some future podcast episodes cause we'll be here all afternoon. I think be clear, be really clear on who you want to serve. I think there's a lot of advantages to having a niche, a specialism. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to say no to every other work opportunity that comes your way, but it means that you can start to be known for something.

And that's the thing is that. With hindsight, had I had a niche or a specialism, let's say, for example, I was passive house specialist, or something along those lines, that, that radius that people are willing to, most people, they [00:40:00] want somebody local, but then if you're doing something specialist, that radius gets bigger. People will be happy to work with somebody if you're a specialist and you're doing that thing that they need that expertise in, and it doesn't mean that you don't get the local projects as well. You still get those local inquiries, but, you become known for something. I think having some kind of niche and being really clear on who you want to serve, the type of.

Also, the types of clients that you like working with, have a think about that, the type of projects you enjoy doing. So that would be my first tip. I think also another good tip is don't be shy. When you start your own business, if you want to gain any traction with it. You need to put yourself out there a bit, and it's an old saying but people buy from people.

So if you can find a way to build up the confidence to maybe, if you've got a website or some brochure or whatever for your business, for your new startup or your small practice, and it's all just pictures of [00:41:00] fancy buildings that you've worked on and your company logo, and maybe there's either no picture of you or your team, or there's a tiny little photo.

In the bottom right corner, just, you need to stand out a bit more in front of your marketing because that's what people are going to remember. You, all of those things about you that's unique. You are in like, you're the USP of your own business. Like all of those idiosyncrasies and quirks about you, like your weirdness, the things that you're interested in.

People know that I. I, people know I play the guitar. They know that I love Lego. I've got my Lego models in the background. It's little things like that. That's just helps build a picture that this is an actual human being and not just a faceless corporation that we're buying from.

And I think another big thing is you need to find your tribe. You need to find some people to help support you along the way, because it is, it can be a lonely road. When you start your own practice, doing things on your own. The truth is, if you're going to be successful at it, [00:42:00] can't really do it on your own. You just can't, you're not going to get anywhere. You really need to seek out those opportunities for other people that you can collaborate with. And I think something that's often overlooked is often you look at who the sort of local practices, and you might be thinking like, Oh God, there's just all these competitors around.

And actually they could be some of your best collaborators.

Stephen Drew: yes, yeah, I agree. I agree with that. I've done a 180 on it because before I'd be like competition, get out of my way. I don't want to know. And now I'm coming around to the idea that there's enough of the pie to go around. And actually, you learn from each other, don't you? It's your, it's the yeah.

Net value together and sharing that information is really valuable. Not siloed, especially in any sales or recruitment thing. It's like you keep all your information when actually. The more you share the stuff, the quicker you go, and I think podcasting, or even like this now, that's a testament to why everyone should collaborate, because, what [00:43:00] you're doing in terms of the Architecture Business Club is very different than the Architecture Social, so why can't they coexist?

I always find it quite silly. It's, to me, it's very silly. Now, we've got two questions that have come in, and we'll do more of a quickfire round, because you could expand upon them. On your, on the Architecture Business Club, and that's an excuse for everyone to subscribe to it, right? And also I know you've got a, you've got your own stuff to do as well, but Simeon quickly says, How did John recover from the transition from local architect?

To reestablish in his online firm. On, local architectural technologies. But how did you do that then? What was the first step, John, to surviving?

Jon: relocation.

Stephen Drew: How did you swing it around?

Jon: Oh, okay. I'll try and give a short answer to this. Cause it's probably, I could, again, it could be quite a long story. Initially, one of the things that I did beforehand, there was a few things that I did. So before we did the move, I I [00:44:00] set up. I set up the virtual office in Cambridgeshire.

It was actually in Cambridge and a local phone number months in advance of physically moving, just in case there was a few inquiries that might start coming in. So that was a real quick and easy thing that didn't cost a lot of money. Low effort thing to do that you could do if you're relocating.

The other thing that I did do, which was much more time consuming and expensive and within hindsight, I didn't really need to do it was at the time I did a total rebrand of the business when I originally started out. My little. Side hustle was called complete plans because that's what it was. It was just doing plans for people doing these little house extension projects.

And then I just thought if I'm going to go down to Cambridge, we need to up the game a bit here. So then it transitioned to complete architecture and I spent time and money, new website, new branding, all of that. And a lot of it was. Totally unnecessary, really. And actually what [00:45:00] I really needed to do, what I should have done in hindsight is when I arrived, I should have actually gone and met more people in person.

I should have, I should have picked up the phone and rung some people up, spoke to some local business owners, joined a few networking groups and and maybe contacted the East Anglia region of CIAT, which I'm involved with now, but at the time I wasn't, I didn't even think. I was in CIAT and I didn't even think to contact the local region.

Like how crazy was that? There could have been all those connections there. So those things I would definitely go and do. And then like this transition to online business, if you like. It's been quite a slow one. I went through another transition where I now my website is.

Personal brand website, essentially, it's me. Like I'm the face of the business. I'm still doing the same architectural design work that I was doing before. And that came off the back of, I was at a mastermind meeting in London. I went through this thing after we moved that I thought, God, [00:46:00] I need to get some more work.

I need to get some more inquiries. And that's when I started learning more about marketing, because what I'd realized is I put all of my eggs in one basket with word of mouth referrals. And now I'd moved, I was like I actually going to have to do some marketing here. I need to get some more business coming in.

What the heck do I do? I don't know the first thing about marketing. So I went out, I went online, I subscribed to some marketing podcasts and I discovered this whole other world. Of marketing. I didn't know it existed and I started going to some marketing events. There was workshops, there was mastermind groups, there was conferences, all about marketing, about all the different aspects of it from digital marketing, social media, print advertising, publishing, everything you could imagine.

And I went to a mastermind at one of these conferences and I sat there and I said, I'd need to make some changes. My business is just not working right now in its current form. And I know I need to change the name, but [00:47:00] what do I do? I know that I'm going to, I know by my nature, I'm always going to be changing things and developing things.

And I'm not going to be standing still. I'm always going to be doing new things. What the heck do I call this business? What do I call it? Something that's not going to change. And somebody in that room just said, why don't you just use your own name? And that's ironic that is probably what most people just do anyway.

When they start out, they just, Oh, it's JC architecture. It's John Clayton design or whatever. That's the first choice for most people. I didn't want to do that. And maybe that was part of my own being a bit of an introvert and my imposter syndrome, maybe I didn't go down that road.

Because that was more uncomfortable for me than having a logo to hide behind. So I then made this decision that I'm going to pivot and I'm going to have a personal brand and I'm going to put myself out there and I am going to start championing other people [00:48:00] like me that maybe are afraid to stand out and to actually stand up and say, you know what, I work in architecture and I'm doing a pretty darn good job at it.

There's a lot of people out there that just don't do it.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. So true. It's so true. I've, I appreciate you sharing that. Very useful. While we were talking as well, my goodness, the flurry of comments are coming in. I am listening. I'm also trying to catch up with this stuff. I can't keep up. You're onto something here. This is why we needed the Architectural Business Club, right?

But I, yeah, exactly. Now this was one I thought was quite funny. It's Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous. I think because the button wasn't ticked, whatever, it doesn't matter. Hi all, Stephen, your topics always cover the last thing I spoke off with colleagues, so we had great minds. Maybe I'm just listening in. I am not that original.

Maybe I've just got a tracker. Where are you working? Only joking. I don't know where you are, but I'm glad this came up and we will, of course, [00:49:00] I think that's one of the important things on the social, and I'm glad that John's covering it as well, is that it's not just about the big companies. It's about the medium and small, and we should represent the UK, and I think that John's Architecture Business Club will do a good job for those solo entrepreneurs and small business owners.

As well as that, we've got GoGo Architects. It's go Power Rangers, go Architects, let's go. Thank you. Hi from Turkey. This is exactly what I needed. It was in need of, I swear, dear Stephen and John. Thank you so much. Actually, it's thank you for tuning in and making this really interesting. I really appreciate it.

John, have I got you for two, three more minutes for one or two more questions?

Jon: yeah, we're good, yeah.

Stephen Drew: All right, cool. I appreciate that as well. So Trevor Smith asks another good question, which you probably could expand upon, I think, in a whole episode on the Architecture Business Club. But in a quickfire round here, as a solo practitioner, architectural technologist there you go.

How much time do you allocate for [00:50:00] project work, business work, sales work, finance, marketing during your week? My goodness. So I think in essence, there's so much things going on in your own business, isn't there, John? How do you even begin to break it down? And where do you put your weight enough time into?

Jon: Oh, with great difficulty. Okay. So I'll try and answer that question quickly. It, at the moment, the last few weeks, it has been Manic. Trying to get ready to launch the podcast. So I don't think that's a fair representation of what my normal working week is and what it will be moving forward. Moving forward, I've allocated a full day per week to focus solely.

On the podcast, so that's going to be recording interviews, recording solo episodes, editing the very first thing, as soon as I, at some point, start making some money from the podcast through whatever means editing is something that I'm going to be outsourcing because I don't mind doing it, but it's a pain in the backside and there's people that can do it far better than me for not a lot of money.

So that is getting outsourced. [00:51:00] ASAP. The rest of the week I spend Monday mornings is focused working on the business. I have a weekly short coaching call and accountability call with some business coaches that I work with. I then have a meeting with a group called the Coal Collective, which is a group a coaching group to talk about something within our businesses.

I then focus on finances. And then I keep the afternoons, I generally try and keep it free to work on any of the firefighting that I need to do. Whether it's a client query, email, invoices that need sending off, Tuesdays all day podcast, Wednesday and Thursday is generally more focused on the client work.

On my architectural design clients. If there's any design work to do, any drawings to do, any things like that to deal with. Planners to. respond to that would generally happen on Wednesdays and Thursdays and Fridays. I try to [00:52:00] leave as an unplanned day so that anything that I don't keep on top of on the rest of the days, in theory, gets done and finished on a Friday,

Stephen Drew: Oh yeah.

Jon: confession time, it doesn't always work like that.

Stephen Drew: Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I love, I think it's nice to start out with a plan. I have a loose, rigid structure. But in my business, John, and I'll confess right now this year has been the firefighting world.com, if that makes sense. And I, in our business, we have a 10 30 kickoff meeting, a drop in, and that is the only consistency right now.

The rest is absolutely manic, however. I think having a structure going the way you're doing it, I think is much better. I'm only confessing what we're doing right now, which isn't probably the best way. There we go. Anyways, that's why I need to tune in to your podcast as well. Maybe a final thought here, Simeon says, I really appreciate John, excellent approach, realizing [00:53:00] they didn't know all this stuff you need to learn.

But basically in essence, Rim Simeon says there's usually an explosion of ideas in the room. Yes, of course. That's the beauty of the podcast. I think is that you can get the message out to the mass. I love, like you say, coaching sessions. I do them as well. I think they're really important one on one.

However, if I can, I think that the podcast is a way to get the message out to the masses which is easy to access and open to all. And currently, just to reiterate it. If it isn't clear, then join the podcast, Architecture Business Club. Oh, we got another guest coming in, but it's free, isn't it?

Everyone can sign up on Spotify

Jon: it's absolutely free new episodes come out every Thursday, 6am. You can find it. If you go to that link, you could subscribe on your podcast app of choice on Spotify, Apple Music, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, any of those, and there is already. Three full episodes that [00:54:00] went out yesterday. I've got an awesome episode with Lyndon Dover the co founder of Weaver about how to find reliable building contractors.

There's another episode from Janine Coombs. She's a service positioning expert about how to price and position your offers. There's a really good episode from a fellow chartered architectural technologist, Chris Baxter from Studio 11 Architecture, award winning practice based in Norfolk. And that's a really interesting episode because he talks about his he talks about business coaching, about his misconceptions of it and his.

Experience of business coaching and that. It was a little bit emotional, actually, that, that episode. Yeah, and I've got some amazing guests coming up, literally. I can't reveal too much, can I? But obviously you're coming on, Stephen. There are like, some absolutely amazing guests. I'm actually surprised some of the people that have said yes, because let's face [00:55:00] it, it's a new podcast and I'm, I've not really done many of these interviews before.

So I just thought God, what? Is anyone going to actually be up for this, with this like amateur interviewer? But you know what? Loads of people have said yes. And actually last week I had to turn somebody away. I had to say, I had

Stephen Drew: Oh, wow.

Jon: I'm sorry, mate. We've already covered that topic.

You're going to have to come back in six months.

Stephen Drew: Oh, wow. Get a new topic. That's what I say. Come on now. You've got, there's plenty of other topics, you put it on the back foot to them, John and you should propose the question to them to come with something different. On that theme of proposing questions though just before we wind down, I always like to say, it shouldn't be a one sided conversation.

Maybe you have one or two questions that you'd like to ask me. Is there something you'd like to ask me while we're live? And I will answer to the best of my ability.

Jon: Okay.

Stephen Drew: Oh no,

Jon: you're going to regret this now, aren't you?

Stephen Drew: that's all right. Come on,

Jon: Could [00:56:00] you tell me a story of when, of an occasion when one of your podcast recordings or live streams went wrong?

Stephen Drew: Oh, I've got a few. So I did talk about it. We've done a live stream and I, my, because I live in Lewisham, there's a dodgy connection that's disconnected. That was a panic because you run into the front room to your partner and go what the heck are you doing? And they're like, Oh, nothing. And y'all, of course it's nothing, but you just have that moment of what the heck's going on?

And really it's just the connection. I've had some guests drop off. The worst ones, in my opinion, are that there's lots of tech involved and not always to people, especially busy business owners have the right tech. So for example, trying to do a live stream on a crappy. A laptop in meeting room 6B, which is on wireless isn't good, right?

So it's doing that, but I think the bigger thing that I'm starting to learn now [00:57:00] is at first I used to be exactly like you. You think, oh my goodness, I'm really lucky that people are on board and I still feel that way. However, having that confidence when you're doing the podcast to realize that You're shining a light on them and therefore now I push back when text bads because I just say, listen, if you sound crap, the listeners not going to hear about it.

It's up to you if you really want it. So it's that kind of stuff where you get a bit more confident. And I remember at the start, John, the one tip. for you is that I always used to then record the episode. And then at the start, I used to go, here's the episode. Do you like it? Let me know if you're okay with it.

And once one person went, Oh, I don't, I just don't like the way I sound. So please don't launch it. And then I was way too nice because actually you have to remember it's my time as well as they is that's been used editing all that stuff we talked about. And then for someone that changed their minds, I was like, no way.

So then. I've gone much more firm on that now where I'm like, listen, I haven't got no [00:58:00] tricky questions. It's going to be really relaxed. Have a look at what I've done. However, if I'm spending time, my time, then I'm going to publish it. So I think it's about valuing your time. And I think that as. That is a very architectural thing, I think.

Architects or technologists, I don't know about technologists so much as architects, but architects giving away stuff for free, we pretend there has permission, we tend sometimes to pander to the client, and actually you have to realize that you're on the even keel. Really, a client should be using you to solve a problem, and you are an expert in that area, and much like anything running a podcast or a live stream.

You have that value. So maybe there's some lessons in there. Is there any follow ups to that? You want to ask about running the podcast at all now that you're doing a live stream?

Jon: Oh off the top of my head. I'm sure there's some other, I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions as soon as we get off this live [00:59:00] stream. But not off the top of my head. I could ask you just a weird question,

Stephen Drew: yeah. Oh, this is intriguing. Please go ahead.

Jon: so do you recall ever When people hear your accent, have people ever mistaken you for, I know where you're from, but have people mistaken you and said, Oh, you're from such and got it completely wrong?

Stephen Drew: Oh yeah, sometimes you must be an American, or Scottish is what I know, something like that, and I get it all the time. I find it quite, I think you've got to have a good sense of humor, because like for me, of course, I'm very proud to be Welsh, I'm very happy where I came from. I'll equally be very honest, when I was 18, I was raring to go, I was like, I'm going to London, I ain't sticking around here, maybe a little bit too brash, I'm honest about it.

I wanted to go, I was like, because I grew up in the village, I was a village life and I wanted to go to the city, baby. I was like, I saw the neon lights and I was like I don't belong here. It's very interesting seeing that kind of thing. Whereas maybe one day I'll get to that point where [01:00:00] I want to go back to the suburbs.

However,

Jon: to the homeland.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, maybe. Yeah, of course. Exactly. Exactly. So I never take it personal. I've always found it. I find it more amusing when people get your names wrong in email. It never bothers me. I never get offended. I think you can't get offended by this stuff, but I always enjoy, that's the word I'd say, when people go Hey, Stefan, or Hey, Stuart.

And you're like, dude, how did we get to that far? Are you not looking at all? And the only time I've actually seen it go really wrong was once I had that happen when I worked in house and recruitment at an architecture practice and we were looking for like an office manager role or something.

And then this candidate kept replying to the email with my name wrong. And I'm sitting next to the office manager and she's just she's got the experience, but she gets your name wrong all the time. How could she be good at the job? And I do think that maybe those things can, you have to be, I think you have to be [01:01:00] conscious in the world that some people get really bothered about the pronunciations of their name.

I remember this one chap as well that really didn't like being called Andy or Andrew, or was maybe the other way around. I can't remember now, but one of them, he'd be like, It's not MD, it's Andrew, and I'm more like you can call me anything as long as you call him me, then I don't mind. So yeah all the time, but John should you get really wound up about it?

I don't think so,

Jon: just have a sa good sense of humor.

Stephen Drew: exactly. So are you, with your podcast, you have permission to spell my name wrong, permission to do all that stuff, but just make sure that you point to the correct domain because we want to get those, want to get those clicks. Only joking. Now, I really appreciate you being here, John. Thank you so much for your time.

I am going to quickly, just before you go, remind everyone where they can find your stuff. So I think the important one right now is the Architecture Business Club, which is [01:02:00] www. architecturebusinessclub.

com. But John, in your words, where can people find you?

Jon: Yeah. Architecture business club.com is the best place to find the podcast. My own website is Mr. John clayton.co uk. So if you go on there, you can contact me. I'm very active on LinkedIn, so you can send me a connection request. Personalize it if you're going to try and connect with me, because that's a much nicer way to connect with people on LinkedIn.

And pretty much everywhere else online, just look for Mr. John Clayton. You'll find me just about everywhere, Twitter, Instagram, et cetera. Yeah, reach out and drop me a message.

Stephen Drew: Great. And an important note here for our audio listeners is John with no H. J. O. N. John,

Jon: Absolutely. It's actually, I'll let you into a little secret. It's actually, my name is actually Jonathan, but it's there's only there's only my mum that calls me it, and it's only if I've been naughty. It's just got shortened to John.

Stephen Drew: Excellent. Simeon is [01:03:00] saying, yeah, of course, it's been a long week. I'm actually very sober right now, but I'm tired. I'm tired. Earlier on the phone, I actually called a a Louise. So I'm in that state of mind right now, but we've managed to do this episode together and Lee, the third guest approves and says, fantastic episode.

Thank you, John. And he enjoyed the first couple of episodes of the Architecture Business Club. Lee's

Jon: Thank you, Lee.

Stephen Drew: I think he knows what he's talking about. He answered the question earlier. So trust Lee and subscribe. Thank you so much everyone for being here. I'm going to end the live stream before my voice breaks or I say something really inappropriate or wrong and get kicked off LinkedIn.

Thank you so much, John. You were an absolute star. Thank you for being here and thank you in the audience and everyone that participated. What a lively bunch of people you are today. I love it. Thank you so much. I'm going to end the live stream now. John, stay on the stage and everyone have a fantastic day.

[01:04:00] Don't get too wasted. Take care, everyone. Bye bye now. Cheers.