Finding Jobs, Securing Interviews and Creating Opportunities

How to Get Interviews at Architecture Practices - A Guide to Creating More Opportunities
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[00:00:00]

Introduction and Overview
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Jack Moran: All right. Hello. I think we're live. Hello. Hi everyone. Good afternoon everyone. Hopefully everyone's doing well. Thank you for joining us.

The Challenge of Job Hunting
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Jack Moran: Now today is going to be an interesting topic because we're going to be dissecting how to go about creating more opportunities, finding unadvertised job openings and securing more interviews.

Jack Moran: Now, Stephen, first things first, this, this whole process of the job thing, would you say that this is probably the most challenging bit or, the one that probably needs most attention? Because especially at a time like this, people are really going to have to find more ways to separate themselves.

Jack Moran: Yeah,

Stephen Drew: Good question. So the first two that we've done, we talked about how to get your CV, in the right position and your portfolio. And so if you think of them as two polished articles now that you perfected, the next bit really [00:01:00] is how do you get that out there? How do you take, how do you go and look in the wide world and reach out to employers so that they can see your portfolio, see your CV and invite you for interviews?

Stephen Drew: Because with all the greatest things, a CV. By itself, you need to make employers aware of who you are, what you're about, go out there and show them who you are. And employers are not necessarily going to come straight to you, especially right now, for instance, where we don't have end of year exhibitions, and we're all in a kind of a situation such as COVID, that actually you almost need to double the effort to reach out to these employers to make them aware of who you are and all of the skills that you.

Stephen Drew: That's my

Jack Moran: thoughts. Yeah, so why don't we, why don't we get into it and actually, dissect the whole process. So let's say you're a graduate, you've been watching our, our wonderful panels. You've got an idea [00:02:00] of how to produce an excellent CV, an eye watering, portfolio that's going to make any employer jump at it.

Jack Moran: But In terms of the process, let's begin at the beginning. Okay, so you're looking for a job.

The Role of Job Boards
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Jack Moran: Now, job boards. This is the first one I'm going to go to use you guys for. Why don't we talk about job boards and, what are the benefits and what are the negatives, what they're good for, what they're not good for.

Jack Moran: So what are your thoughts to start with on the job boards?

Stephen Drew: So for me, the job boards, the job board is going to be it's the thing that people look to straight away. Okay, it's very easy, for instance, in architecture to load up Disney jobs and look for one or two Part 1, Part 2 graduate positions.

Stephen Drew: There's going to be less of them. The thing is though, everyone, it's the first thing people think of when they're looking for a job is to go for a job board. So my issue is that jobs that are posted on job boards are going to have, they're going to be highly competitive. Because what you're doing is you're going against a lot of people because it's very easy to find.

Stephen Drew: Therefore The chances [00:03:00] of you actually securing the interview are going to be lower, and then also, if you do get an interview, you're probably going to be up against 5, 10, maybe even 15 to 20 people. So if you boil it down like a funnel effect you've got your application, there's loads of them, so the chances of you getting to the next step and being picked are lower, then you've got more people you're competing against, so the probability of you getting this job is slower.

Direct Applications and Personalized Messages
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Stephen Drew: Let's say it's a few percent, whereas If you found an architectural practice, and which is listed on Google, and it was down the road from you, and you loaded up their website, and you found on there a directum, and you wrote a custom, simple message saying to the director that you are looking, here's the CV and portfolio.

Stephen Drew: That role, there might be a role there, but there might be not. Okay, but if there is a role there, you're the person who has found it because it's not advertised online. So currently your [00:04:00] chances are one to one, that you know there's a role there, and you know there's an opportunity. And maybe they've got two or three CVs compared to 50, right?

Stephen Drew: So the chances are much, much higher. And also, Because you've gone out of your way and you've sent a personalized message and say now you even contact them, you'll follow up afterwards and you ring, then basically you're making a fantastic impression. You are standing out in the crowd compared to one application on 200 applications on Dezeen.

Stephen Drew: But what do you think, Will, about job boards and speaking in person?

Will Ridgway: I think the job boards itself is the easiest but least effective way of landing yourself a job. The whole idea of applying for jobs in the first place is so that you get the job. And to do that, you've got to put the odds in your favour, and by using websites like CareerStructure or Dezeen, it's easy to apply, [00:05:00] which again, makes it very popular to do and so therefore you're always up against so many people, as Steve was saying.

Will Ridgway: It's always best you, feel free to apply to them, but you should, rather than waiting. And being, not necessarily lazy, but you're being passive, you're passively searching by waiting for them to come back to you, it's best to be a bit proactive, and the best way to do that is by going directly to websites, whether or not, as in Architecture Studios, whether or not they're advertising for a role, anything like that, is really important.

Will Ridgway: By sending a personalized message, you stand out, might be two other people who have the same idea, but a 1 in 3 chance is much better than a 1 in 100, 200 chance yeah.

Stephen Drew: Do you know what, as well, Jack, you might like this, I read a study, and I think it was on average, only 20 percent of jobs Vacancies are advertised.

Stephen Drew: And you have to remember as well, when, if you're a business and you're advertising, to put your post on a [00:06:00] job board usually costs money. So by going direct to an employer that you're going straight to the source. And sometimes, and I think we touched upon it when I was one of our, one of our Zoom chats last week, sometimes you can send the CV into the inbox and it could be on the, in there on a Monday and the director on a Tuesday.

Stephen Drew: Could be speaking to their colleague and could go, they could be like, Jeff, I really need someone from my team. And what Jeff will do is he will go, hang on, I think I got a few people in my inbox from yesterday. Why don't you have a quick look at who's there? And if you like anyone, you'll get them in. And what you're doing then is you're going straight to the source and you are getting in at the front.

Stephen Drew: You've basically. Give yourself a massive opportunity, a massive window to get in there before everyone else. And I think in life, early bird catches the worm. Because if you're at the front of the queue and you make a positive impression, you come across well person above the CV, the [00:07:00] portfolio read well, and in the interview you're okay.

Stephen Drew: What you're doing is you're seizing the opportunity.

Maximizing Opportunities and Handling Rejection
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Stephen Drew: And that's what I really wanted to get across in this session is Once you got the CV and portfolio, to me, when I was a part 1, I sent my CV, because it was recession, it was 2009, so I sent my CV out to, I think it was 850 companies, give or take, and from that, I had about 10 10 interviews, and I had a lot of rejection, and rejection is part of the process.

Stephen Drew: It's good for feedback, and it will happen. The thing is that if you're getting rejection, you're learning from it, you're going towards the goal. That is good, and by creating more opportunity, you've had more chances, you've seen practices, you've learned from it. Whereas I worry If you almost sit back and you wait for a job, a board to post a job, the, um, the [00:08:00] rejection rate's always going to be the same, right?

Stephen Drew: Because architecture, like anything else, is competitive. But because you're waiting so long for these adverts, You're basically you might have one interview, two interviews, three interviews every month. And the first few are rejected, and you hopefully get some feedback. But this process is going to take you on a few months.

Stephen Drew: Whereas if you go online, and you basically find out, you go through companies, you speak to people and you find uncharted and Off the beaten track opportunities, you can get more interviews, hopefully get more comparison, learn more and improve your interview technique, and you can hopefully get a job quicker.

Stephen Drew: Whereas, if you're waiting on one or two adverts to be posted, I fear that You've not taken control of the situation, and therefore, there is no guarantee [00:09:00] that there's no, you're basically, it could go on and on, whereas the more you seize the moment, the more you go out there, the more you apply, the more you learn about the companies, the more you write to the directors, and the more you follow up, and you call, and you get feedback, and you speak to them as a person, then the chances are increasing That you're going to get a job quick yeah.

Will Ridgway: Yeah, I was thinking that when you're on Dezeen looking for a job, there's 500 other architects who have a very similar background to you, who are also applying to exactly the same roles as you are, so you're always competing up against the same people all the time. And whilst, yes, you could be the best out of those 500 or so people, it's much easier to, better your odds by Going and finding these jobs that aren't advertised there because then suddenly you're not competing against those 500 people.

Will Ridgway: You're only competing against a few select people. Yeah, who've decided to follow suit as well. Yeah,

Stephen Drew: no, it's more adding to your point and to [00:10:00] think out loud. There used to be the few lists of architecture practices on RIBA, but personally If there's no lists right now, it's almost an advantage. So if I was currently job seeking, what I would do is I would start looking at companies near to where I live, and then I would slowly move out the search.

Stephen Drew: You, so it's, and then what I would go and Google, I would literally type architectural practices. I would go look online at companies you're familiar with, anyone that's won an award. And I would start finding out and looking at the news and all that, all these companies, and then I would go on their website, click them on Google, look at the the company, find the director's name, and write a little bit of a custom email.

Stephen Drew: You don't need to change the cover letter huge amounts and go into the detail, but maybe the first sentence or two you customize, and you do it to them, and then you talk about why you, who you are. What you're about, [00:11:00] where you're at, and why you're interested. So who, what, where, when, why, so they know who you are.

Stephen Drew: You don't need to write an essay on where to go to one company. You have to get the maximum. Uh, you have to get the balance between efficiency on time and being personalized. So you'd go, Dear Tom, I'm really interested in Tom Smith's architecture practice, you were quite close to me. I am currently available.

Stephen Drew: And da. We'd be very interested to hear from you. A bit personalized, a little, a sentence or two at the top of why you're interested. I'm down the road I've looked at the website and I, and and I really am interested in the work that you've done and the team. I would love to meet you talk to you in an interview, something like that.

Stephen Drew: And then you say, I'm a part two student currently available immediately with a two one. I know Revit, I've got software, here's a CV and portfolio.

Effective Communication and Follow-Up
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Stephen Drew: to get that interview and then I would call them up in two or three days. I would put all this in an excel sheet and this is almost like your own version [00:12:00] of you're making your own job board, you're making your own matrix, you're making your own approach to and making opportunities which were not there.

Stephen Drew: You're making something that is not on job boards, you are basically building up your web of information. Your knowledge of architectural practices, and you're getting out there. And then also, when you speak to these companies, they might not have a job for you, but you know what, if you give them a call and you're really nice, you go, it would be great to have a little bit of feedback.

Stephen Drew: And so what you're doing in all this is you get, you're creating more opportunities, hopefully more interviews, and more chances for feedback. Compared to if you're waiting for a job board, the chances are the reason why we get involved as recruitment consultants is that sometimes when your job's posted, the company will get inundated with CVs which aren't relevant candidates which are not right for the role are not actually physically able to [00:13:00] work in London, therefore They get overwhelmed.

Stephen Drew: And so what you're doing, if you go into the source and you're approaching someone on their website and you send a nice email and it goes straight to the director. Then that's easy, isn't it? It's really to the point, they see your CV and portfolio, it's come into the inbox, it's for the attention of the director.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant.

Will Ridgway: I think as well on some websites, a lot of companies, architecture practices, they don't always keep their website up to date. For example, there might be an advertisement for a part one, part two, but it might be an out of date one, or there might not be anything there, but they are actually looking for a part one, part two.

Will Ridgway: And I think as well, like some websites would be saying, oh, not currently recruiting at the moment, but I, because of this reason, I always think it's still worth applying, not applying, but still worth making contact just to see if there's anything there. Because I've worked with a couple of studios before.

Will Ridgway: who have advertised for a particular role on the website, and but they're actually not looking for that. They're actually looking for something else. It's just the [00:14:00] fact that they're not got around to updating the website because these practices, they're very busy. They've got projects to do.

Will Ridgway: They might not have a dedicated person to update the website, particularly if it's a smaller studio. So it's always worth going out, being proactive and just seeing, saying hi and see if there's anything available. for you to help out with. And I think as well with Steve saying about you start by distance, that's the best thing, particularly now in this current climate at the moment, because if you're just down the road, then that immediately eliminates any, the fact that you have to, don't have to go on public transport, for example.

Will Ridgway: Which is a huge advantage and you can pop in the studio quite easily, which is quite good considering, a lot of people, a lot of architects are working remotely at the moment. So it'd be nice to have someone that can go into the studio every now and then. So that's why the distance search is probably the best way to do it.

Will Ridgway: To start with, and then you branch out into other avenues later on.

Stephen Drew: I think that if you send a nice clear, [00:15:00] not too long, not too short email with a CV and portfolio, no one will ever tell you shouldn't have done that. It will always be welcome. The worst case scenario is they don't reply. Okay, that they and what you typically find is sometimes they will say they don't have a role right now, but thank you very much.

Stephen Drew: And then I remember I was looking back and only a handful of companies, but what they did do is they went, we don't have a role, but I really like the CV and portfolio. And that was a really nice confidence boost. That really meant a lot to me at the time, because taking that information on board at almost.

Stephen Drew: Build your fire to keep going. And, I remember I was a bit shy back then. I don't know if you can imagine it, but it was a scary idea to, to call. And it did make a big difference because you almost feel like, Oh my gosh, I can't call. As long as you're not too long on the phone, [00:16:00] as long as you're friendly and to the point, it will always be welcome.

Stephen Drew: I think they, they always say if they're too busy or, but, If you're quick enough, and you're efficient, you're almost helping them, because you're basically making, if you've got this skill set to where you can help out, then an employer is always going to welcome that CV and portfolio.

Stephen Drew: And I think the best way is direct. Yeah.

Jack Moran: Interesting point there, just to add on the when you're talking about calling people up as well and approaching employees directly, I suppose it works for both that and the jobs board. A lot of these employers, correct me if I'm wrong, but they will sometimes might even use a piece of software to look through your CV.

Jack Moran: If they've got, if they put a job online and like you said, they've got a huge flux of influx of applications, they might use a system where they can look up, certain terms within someone's CV or portfolio, if they're looking for a specific software skill, like Revit, for example.

Jack Moran: So do you think people will benefit by using, it goes back to [00:17:00] CV a bit, thinking about that sort of perspective from their end, do you think it's important for them to include these key technical terms, so that if employers are just, searching their CV or portfolio using software.

Jack Moran: It's a bit more relevant to what they're looking for.

Stephen Drew: I generally find that a small to medium or even large architectural practice will not use that software, but what they will do is that they will get sent loads of emails and you need to make it really good point what you're on about Jack, because compared to a big company where they can use algorithms to find stuff, in this a typical architecture practice won't.

Stephen Drew: A job board will, and the job board will suggest stuff, but the most effective way is to go direct to an employer and I am Stephen Drew, or I am Will Ridgway, I am Jack Moran, and then in the email title, part one, Architectural Assistant, available immediately. CV and portfolio attached. If you say that, then you're doing what you're talking about, and you're basically saying to them, So that they can [00:18:00] pick up straight away in the title of the email, the agenda.

Stephen Drew: And that is really important. So you are right when you want about keywords. We, I don't think they were using systems. So what we've got to do is we've got to tap into how to. To grab their attention. So key things would be for me, think it out loud, your name, of course, and then also in your CV and portfolio files, have them, your name on it, but then you want key buzzwords which are relevant on the title.

Stephen Drew: So part one, Architectural Assistant, available immediately with a 2 1 and Revit, or. One year industry experience, and then the, in the email, it's going to be one or two paragraphs, not too long, and, but also not too short. You want to get just enough of the key information so that Someone who's busy can pick it up without waffling on too much.

Stephen Drew: No one needs [00:19:00] to know about your dream concepts of where you want to take architecture in 20 further years. They're not going to pick that up from the cover letter. They want to understand who you are, what you're about. Part two or part one, that you're available immediately, you're based in London, that you you scored a 2 1 in design, and you're passionate about architecture, and you'd like to tell them about your interests in an interview.

Stephen Drew: Please find the Hatch CV and Portfolio in Tyson. Getting people interested. What you don't want is a big two page thing in an email, where everyone just switches off. What do you think, Will?

Will Ridgway: Yeah, I would automatically switch off if it's a big, lengthy paragraphs upon paragraphs of words. Because I'm very busy, and so it's important to quickly be able to get straight to the point, know exactly what the point of the email is.

Will Ridgway: Quickly digest the information and then make a decision very quickly whether or not I want to either continue reading or or, pick up [00:20:00] the phone and give them a call. So it's got to be straight to the point. I wouldn't go too much further than a few lines on the email, just be straight to the point.

Will Ridgway: And then, because what I tend to do is I'll, I'll quickly have a Quick look through the CV and portfolio and then make a decision there very quickly. So yeah, I, I've not really got much more to add to that. But yeah, just make it easy for them with the keywords in the subject heading.

Will Ridgway: The subject heading doesn't have to make sense as in like a sentence, just like the keywords. Part One Architecture Assistant down the road from the studio or something like that. Whatever you think would make you a, someone that would stand out in front of other people, like your one year of industry experience or particular software that, this studio uses.

Will Ridgway: Or even if you've worked in, if it's a niche sector, maybe this particular studio focuses on transport sector, you can be like, One year of transport experience because you've worked previously at another studio who's done very similar or a competitor. So I think that would [00:21:00] be the best way to basically sell yourself.

Will Ridgway: It's all about making yourself shine.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And so I think that's useful.

Leveraging LinkedIn and Networking
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Stephen Drew: The other bit I'd like to touch on is that the best person to help yourself right now is especially if you're at a graduate level. In particular, because recruitment consultants are used when they've got a particular task and they are looking for something in particular.

Stephen Drew: So it might be that they are looking for a BIM coordinator. So if you're a part one architectural assistant graduate, the best thing to do is to go to the employers directly and get This is the same thing with LinkedIn. LinkedIn is a tool, but just because you're on there, it doesn't mean an opportunity is going to come your way.

Stephen Drew: And a recruitment consultant might help a little bit, that they might be busy on a particular task. So the best thing that you can do in your current situation is to take a Your CV, your portfolio, and this kind of attitude that we're on about of finding stuff and approaching people in a pleasant capacity to create [00:22:00] opportunities for you.

Stephen Drew: That is going to, in my opinion, maximize the highest outcome, but Yeah, that's my thoughts on it. Have we got one or two questions that have come in as well, Jack?

Will Ridgway: Can I quickly just add to what Steve is saying, just to stay on that general topic? With, if I was to go on a job search don't worry, Stephen, I'm not, but if I was to go on a job search, I would focus, I'd focus largely On being proactive, but have something passive in the background.

Will Ridgway: So I have my CV uploaded to a job site. I'll have my LinkedIn profile up to date in case anyone were to contact me, but I shouldn't be relying upon those factors. I should be going out there and Making those opportunities. It's alright to apply for a couple of jobs on LinkedIn, but at the same time, those jobs are limited, whereas, whilst there are of course a limited number of practices you can apply to, there are still hundreds and hundreds you can do and it's unlikely for anyone really to get through those jobs.

Will Ridgway: Every single [00:23:00] practice in the UK. So essentially you create yourself a list and you just go through and create opportunities by going out and going straight to these practices directly rather than necessarily waiting for them to come to you. So the focus should be on being proactive, but have something passive in the background so that if anything does come to you, great, it makes it easy for you.

Stephen Drew: Yeah,

Jack Moran: Said. And that point of LinkedIn, I think we're going to dive into a bit further just after these questions.

Q&A Session
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Jack Moran: The first one comes in from Mugiha who's saying that if you've sent over your profile to a company or practice and they're saying they don't have any roles at the time, do you think it's still worth calling them up and asking for feedback?

Jack Moran: Putting my two two cents here. I definitely think it is because one, if you do call someone up and say, look, I really appreciate you getting back to me and just telling me that there's no roles just out of curiosity or to help me in my search is there anything you think I could have done better?

Jack Moran: Is there anything, that I That was a bit weak on my profile. Don't always expect a reply, because they might be swamped in work. [00:24:00] They might not always do it, but what they'll see is a mature attitude towards your job search and an indicator that you want to take it seriously. So even if you're not going to get anything from that conversation, your attitude might reflect, and Stephen will tell you as well, if you're applying for a bunch of places, Don't be surprised it's in a couple months down the line as, things hopefully start to pick back up that you actually start getting flooded with calls.

Jack Moran: The graph that you're putting in now might not, reflect until a month or two later. But what do you think, Stephen? I think it's

Stephen Drew: perfect. I couldn't have said it better myself. I think you are bang on there, mate. That would be, I think that's the thing, that they might return to it later and it comes across really well.

Stephen Drew: I don't think I can answer it even better. That's perfect. Yeah. It's just going out there and doing it, and learning, and improving, which is going to get there. And I think it goes to the other thing I was going to mention with what Will was talking about earlier.

Stephen Drew: I think that the LinkedIn is almost complementary. Or like the link, LinkedIn, you should think of it as a backup. If you [00:25:00] psychologically think that you, that a job opportunity is not, probably not going to come from it, then I think that's a healthier mind frame to have, and if something comes from it, it's a bonus.

Stephen Drew: Whereas statistically, I think the best thing to do is to go out there. If you do know someone as well in the industry, that can be an advantage if you can get a reference from them, or perhaps maybe they can get you an interview. I never had that luxury, so I had to go out there and volume. But obviously if you know someone as a first protocol, that can be a powerful tool, because there's nothing like a reference from someone they know.

Will Ridgway: Yes, I agree. And also, I think Particularly as well, if you've got your other friends who are also part ones, maybe they've just got themselves a job somewhere and they neither know that the practice is hiring or just even refer you over there. That's going to help you massively because, it's all about building those connections.

Will Ridgway: And that's one of the good things. I would say LinkedIn is good at in terms of building connections, but it's something that's going to be a bit [00:26:00] more important down the line in the future of your career when you have that, when you're a bit more known, when you've got more you've worked on more projects, you've worked at more studios, whereas at the beginning of your, At the beginning of your search as a part one, it's unlikely that anyone really is going to call you up.

Will Ridgway: You've got to make a name for yourself at the beginning, rather than necessarily wait around.

Jack Moran: Yeah.

Will Ridgway: Excellent.

Jack Moran: And just following on with the questions we've had a question coming from Roshni suggesting if we do a cover letter as an attachment or, just typing it up in the emails. We have covered a little bit of this topic in our previous workshops.

Jack Moran: What I can do is I'll make another session. I think that's a really good way to start off the day. It's just reminding people of where they can find those videos, because they are really helpful for anyone who is, still making CV or portfolio. In regards to the question though, I think the sort of general consensus from Stephen as well was that, in the body of an email, a short, very short summary of, what type of architect you are, what it is you're looking for, what skills you have, what software you have.

Jack Moran: You've got to realize that you don't want to make it too bulky, [00:27:00] otherwise no one wants to read a huge email. Get to the stuff. that they require. I think the big thing, Stephen, we picked up on is, when their job opening opens, it's because of a requirement, isn't it? It's a need. It's a need of a particular set of skills.

Jack Moran: If they're looking through these applications and they've done a six page cover letter, that's just going to be really pedantic for them. And they're probably just going to move on. However, if you put in an email, we're bam. Here's my name. Here's part one. I've worked on this before.

Jack Moran: I've got this experience in Revit, for example. Please find attached to my CV and portfolio. But yeah, I think that's the best way to tackle it.

Stephen Drew: I agree. And it's almost, it's really interesting you brought up about the systems and algorithms, because I think the big companies of the world, they use them systems to pull out keywords, right?

Stephen Drew: Whereas what's interesting is that a small architecture practice, they do not. So it's almost like you can't rely on them picking up Revit on page three when you haven't mentioned it in the covering letter, and you [00:28:00] haven't mentioned at the start. And that's I think the key thing with this is that what we're on about is that the opportunity isn't going to come to you.

Stephen Drew: You have to go out there and get it. Then you have to make sure it's clear and concise, that they understand who you are and what you're offering. So hopefully you will have polished the CV and the portfolio. Like we talked about a covering letter, you can add it as well. But think about the email as the quick, Pointer, they need to understand what you are at, who you are, where you are at, and then from there they need to then look at your CBM portfolio and invite you in for an interview.

Stephen Drew: And the title of the email's really important and the files of the email's really important and they are the things that are gonna be important. The thing is though, it's you who is gonna be the person that creates the opportunity and goes out and gets the CVM portfolio there. So you gotta think of it as a f, like a funnel or something.

Stephen Drew: If you don't go out and create that [00:29:00] opportunity, no matter how good the CVM portfolio is, not as many people are going to see it. The more people you get you make communication with, you showcase your nice CVM portfolio, statistically, the more likely you're going to find jobs. So we're going to say you send it to, say now you send it to 500 companies, and 50 of them have jobs, you might find from the other 450, say, that there's a hundred jobs in Advertise.

Stephen Drew: So instead of just going for the 50 that are advertised, you've created 150 opportunities and then from that, from them opportunities, you might get interview requests from 10 to 20 companies. We're probably from 10 to 20 companies. It varies. You could sometimes, on all this, you can send one CV, And you can go to one company and you can get one interview and you can get one offer.

Stephen Drew: Perfect, right? That only happens every now and then. It didn't happen for me. And in recession, I can tell you it was 800 [00:30:00] companies to 12 to 15 interviews, something like that, and a lot of no's. And some of the interview requests came from after I took a job. I remember, I think I had six or seven interviews come in at one point, all in one little area, and I had like full nose, and I was getting a bit nervous, and in the end I got an offer.

Stephen Drew: I had to psychologically build up towards, there's a chance I might have to keep going out there and go again, but what I will tell you though, is that the interviews that I went to, which didn't go so well, and I got rejected, definitely didn't Definitely helped me with regards to EPR. I remember I was really nervous for one interview and the second interview and the third interview, so the first three, but by the fourth, fifth and sixth I got calmer.

Stephen Drew: And there was something weird that happened in the EPR where I didn't overthink it and I [00:31:00] was in the moment, and it's, I don't know, it's like that cheesy m and m thing, but it's lose yourself in the moment. And there is something about that. And I think where that comes from is doing things in time.

Stephen Drew: Cause we were even talking about it before this. And it's like the first one of these that I did, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I got to go online. It's really nerve wracking. And I'm like, now that you, over time, you develop more trust in yourself, that you are going to say the right things. You've researched you've thought about it in your head.

Stephen Drew: You've hit the key points and you practice key things, because what we're talking about is what we do all day, every day for a living. But then you trust yourself to go into the moment like this is live and we're going to say the right things. It's going to come from an honest place.

Building Confidence for Interviews
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Stephen Drew: It's going to come from a place of experience with a level of confidence, which isn't arrogance, but is human, and I think that's the kind of thing that in an interview that comes across. But to bring it we're going to do another one of these on [00:32:00] interviews, but what I'm trying to get to is with this is that to get that out of an interview, you need to do interviews. And the way you do interviews is you create opportunities by going out there, getting interviews, and the best way to get interviews right now is to really get confident in your CV and portfolio.

Stephen Drew: And then. Get that message and get it out there and look where people aren't looking and also don't always judge a website. You can be a company which doesn't have the best website and they might be a lovely company to work for, super friendly, the hours are good and you get great experience. If you're going to be someone that judges a book by its cover, and I don't like that saying, but it is a bit true you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, and you should, oh gosh, here we go, you should think outside of the box.

Creating Opportunities and Networking
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Stephen Drew: But in this one, I want you to go imagine the [00:33:00] box is the job board. And if you limit yourself to just the job board, you only get what's in the job board. The best opportunities are ones that you find, it's your connections. And if you haven't got connections, this is the thing, we start making connections.

Stephen Drew: It's like me in recruitment. It's the same in architecture. I didn't know anyone. I put myself out there. And when I started this job, you don't know anyone. And what it is that you have to go out of your comfort zone, meet people, and learn. And that comes with it. Doing it. So the best thing is almost, I feel like, um, there was like there was like a quote, I think it was Ricky Gervais.

Stephen Drew: And he was just saying that basically in essence, he kept putting stuff off and that you can basically do anything you want. You just have to do it today. And it's a bit like this with the CV and the portfolio. You have to apply and get yourself out there and give yourself the benefit. And it's like the other thing of like baiting, isn't it?

Stephen Drew: Where you're like, Oh my gosh. If I if I [00:34:00] ask her out and she says no, it's like, hey, you're not on a date right now. You need to ask.

Jack Moran: It's true though, isn't it?

Handling Rejection and Building Resilience
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Jack Moran: That's a really good analogy because they, the whole idea of fear of rejection with, if people are applying for loads of jobs, but they're not getting anywhere, is that going to knock their confidence, which might bleed over into an interview?

Jack Moran: Someone's had their confidence. Will they show that they're not very strong? Confident person in the interview same with dating as well if you get rejected x amount of times you're not gonna probably want to go because you're gonna think there's something wrong with you and Stephen what you were talking about before about you know the rejection the failure what it actually does for you i feel like In order for you to really become a strong person at interviews or, really presented person, you almost have to go through that, that, that rejection process first, because that's when you're in your most analytical state, you're learning about yourself, aren't you?

Jack Moran: And if you're actually taking in what employers are saying to you about why you didn't get an interview there or what you could have done better, all that little thing is, really giving you a boost down the line. Absolutely.

Stephen Drew: I think it's humbling. [00:35:00] Let me tell you, though, the first time you get rejected, it doesn't mean it feels good, right?

Stephen Drew: And this is nailing on the head right now, because when I didn't get a job interview at first, you're like, What have I done? It's me! And you go through that. That's very natural and what you, what have happened so is that you realize it's for a few factors. It can be competitive and then you almost gear yourself up.

Stephen Drew: You build a bit of a thick skin because life, while great, is competitive and also tough. We know this, we're in COVID right now, right? So what you're going to do is you develop a thick skin, but to do that You are going to be a bit vulnerable sometimes and you are going to get rejection and it's not going to be nice.

Stephen Drew: I remember when I, and it's not quite the job search, but in, in architecture, when you're a part one, if you're going to go, after you do your year out, you've got to apply to be a part two, different unis. And so I studied at Westminster and I didn't get into Westminster for part two. And that really hurt.

Stephen Drew: And then actually, [00:36:00] in the end, it was the best thing ever because I went to Manchester and it was exactly the same. I had to go up to Manchester and I had to go interview it and in my head I was like, oh, this is the last one I want to go to, I've got to do it. But then I just went into M& M mode and you go into the moment and then I think the moment I started speaking from the heart and stuff, I could just tell the rapport was there and it was the same thing at the EPR interview.

Stephen Drew: But I remember when I didn't get into Westminster. I had that. I went through them stages. I was in bed. I was like, I don't want to get out. I'm not appreciated. I'm not good enough. And you do that for a little bit. And then you really got to pick yourself up. So that's the thing of that is completely natural.

Stephen Drew: My advice would be though, is that I can't remember how long I stayed in bed, in that rejection period. But let me tell you, you go through it, embrace it, and then move on. And it's just like the, imagine if I felt sorry for myself and then I didn't apply [00:37:00] to Manchester, or imagine the first few rejections that I got, then I stopped.

Stephen Drew: I wouldn't have worked in EPR, which is actually now a top a hundred company. That was really good experience and it was hilarious how. I met some smaller architecture practices and the one I went for was prestigious. But then at the same time, I got to be honest, some of the companies that I met, even though they didn't offer them, there was one or two really small companies.

Stephen Drew: And I really appreciated the difference and that was interesting as well to see the difference between what you can get out of a small company and a larger company. And in the end, I quite like the larger company. The thing is though, I know so many people who go to smaller companies and they learn so much.

Stephen Drew: They have such great experience and it was enriching to go to and if I didn't go to them interviews, I wouldn't have had it and even though I got rejected by a few, it was still a good experience. [00:38:00]

The Importance of Continuous Application
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Will Ridgway: I think one of the best ways to get over that rejection period is by when you start to get interviews, you start to think great, I've got four interviews lined up, the likelihood is I'm going to get a job and yes, I'm There's the potential you can get the job in one of those interviews, but what's important is to not stop applying.

Will Ridgway: So even though you've got those four interviews lined up, just still keep applying for jobs until basically you've accepted a job. Because the last thing you want to do is go for those four interviews, and you don't get any of them, and then suddenly you're back to square one again. All that hard work that you've been putting in for the last two weeks, applying to all these jobs.

Will Ridgway: You've stopped because you've got these interviews. You've rested on your laurels a little bit. So it's important just to keep pushing. And when you're also bringing these companies up and being polite, not every phone call is going to go as smoothly as you picture it in your head.

Will Ridgway: You'll, you might, you will make mistakes over the phone, particularly first few goes, but it's, that's human. And it's important just to keep, ring it, keep ringing up and don't let any, if you get a bad experience over a call because someone's really busy, don't [00:39:00] take it to heart.

Will Ridgway: People have other things to be focused on at the moment and you should just, take, move on to the next one. And basically just, basically you're like a machine. You just got to keep going until basically you get that job. But I think, yeah, I think also one of the other ways it's touching a little bit back on earlier, but one of the best ways to find new roles other than necessarily, not new roles, but studios, not necessarily focusing on your location, but more on reading and keeping up to date with architecture news.

Will Ridgway: I think that's a really good one, because not only does that increase your knowledge of the industry in general, which makes a better, makes for a better conversation in an interview. It also reveals certain studios, who's won what projects have been planning granted, for example. And those are the types of studios you should bring up and say, well done. I'm a part one. Do you have any room for me to help out on this particular project that you've just,

Jack Moran: really good idea, granted,

Will Ridgway: plain granted for. Yeah. So yeah, I would I would focus on not just distance, but keeping up to date with architecture in general. Cause then [00:40:00] again, even the interviews as well, you won't ace every interview.

Will Ridgway: I think the first interview that I ever went to when I was looking for a job, I wasn't particularly keen on the company, but I thought I've not been to an interview yet. The worst the worst thing that could happen is me not get the job, but at the same time, I'm not really fussed, I'm doing it for the experience so that I, in the next interview, if I do get a company that I really like, then I have a better chance of acing that interview.

Will Ridgway: And and to be honest as well, a lot of interviews, going into interviews a little bit at the moment, I'm going to try and stay away from it. But even if you have a really good interview, it's all about just having that rapport with that person. Not every interview is going to go.

Will Ridgway: Exactly how you want it to do, and it all depends on the personality of the other individual, really take all the feedback and basically improve yourself for next time, and just keep going, and don't necessarily let any rejections, go to heart, and just keep moving forwards.

Engaging with the Architecture Community
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Stephen Drew: I love that, and I think What your idea there, Will, of talking about a current event.

Stephen Drew: What a beautiful [00:41:00] way to write that into an email. I am I'm a part two assistant. I saw your practice because I understand that you've now your scheme has gone through planning, which is fantastic. I'm available immediately and I can use Revit and I would love to be part of this project.

Stephen Drew: Or maybe there's another project in the office. That's You see me on, here's my CV portfolio, my contact details. What a great way. And this is the kind of theme of it because there's some obstacles right now to the COVID. It will always change, but like a life lesson. And this is a similar thing with networking and the power of meeting people.

Stephen Drew: And for instance remember we were at SOM's office. And we met that chap and remember I had a nice chat with him and he was out and eager and looking for a job and he made such a good he made such a good impression that I actually sent him a message and he found a job, but I think Zaha Hadid.

Stephen Drew: So he really went straight, stratospheric point is though, remember he was out hustling in this really friendly way, looked really professional and he was there and [00:42:00] he was the balance between, he was hungry for the opportunity and, but he was also pleasant, engaging, but he was present. He was there.

Stephen Drew: He was ready to go and make such a great person. Yeah, sorry, I got one delivery, one second, but there you go.

Jack Moran: Opportunities

Stephen Drew: knocking on the door!

Jack Moran: That point that you brought up about, if you know that they've won a project, or if you know that, I think that's really good.

Jack Moran: We should expand on that a bit. I would like as well, because, even if you get rejected from, say you do what you say, and you know that X company has just won a project, so you say, oh, congratulations on the project, here's my, Portfolio and CV. And then they come back to you and say, Oh yeah, I've already filled the role or we were just at too much capacity.

Jack Moran: I think that in itself will separate someone massively from the crowd because not only are they displaying, required skills for the job, but they're actually showing them how serious they're looking into the market, it's that market thing, isn't it? That really, I don't know what your thoughts are, but for me, it really, It shows that

Will Ridgway: they're engaged [00:43:00] with architecture and I think that's important because I think a lot of people You know for most architects they do it because they're passionate about Architecture in general, they enjoy doing it but there's a distinct difference between being passionate about it and then also engaging with the industry because I think the more you engage in the industry The better your understanding overall becomes, particularly as well, I think a lot of, I've heard from a lot of part ones or part twos, people who've been at university and not had any work experience, it's very different going from, from university and then getting that professional experience.

Will Ridgway: The two environments are very different. And so it's important to be engaged with architecture. 'cause then it, it improves your it looks like you know what you're talking about a lot of the time. And it can obviously increase the chances of you making good impression. And like Steve was saying about this person we were speaking to at one of the events, it makes you stand out.

Will Ridgway: If that person sent a CV through, we'd never, it would, he would, they [00:44:00] would never stood out as much as they had done at that particular event. So it's, um, it's important to be, not only active online by approaching studios virtually, but then going to, once things start to reopen again, going to these events, going to the RIBA events, any social events related to architecture, where there could be employers, and it doesn't even matter if there aren't any employers there, if you've got other architects there, you're socializing with them, you're finding out about their company, and you could potentially get referred over, because they could be like I know my company's hiring, do you want me to put in a good word for you?

Will Ridgway: And then that's where, you're able to get a job that way or at least an interview that way. So it's it's about covering all aspects and not just focusing on one area because you're limiting your chances. It's better to be proactive and cover as much ground as possible. That's why

Jack Moran: it's called face value, isn't it?

Jack Moran: Like it's never, you never hear like the term phone value or anything by going out there and actually getting face to face with these people is probably the best way to stick in their head, rather than just, sending an occasional email or [00:45:00] calling them up. 100 percent

Stephen Drew: We're all human.

Stephen Drew: And it's like now, remember we were, I remember, I had a little joke and a giggle with you before because I was like there's a chance Amazon's going to come doing. But I think the thing is, as long as we're professional, we're all human, right? And the thing is, it's almost like even on the phone, if you say who you are, what you're about and just go look, I'm really excited, a little bit nervous, but do you know what?

Stephen Drew: I'd love to talk to you about my CV and portfolio. It's okay to be human, as long as we're professional about it and embracing life and embracing all this stuff and ringing someone up and asking a question. And it goes back to your point, Jack, of maybe at the end of it, you go, do you know what I understand?

Stephen Drew: There's no job here right now. And. But I respect your practice and you, and I know you're busy, but it would mean the world to me if I can get just two minutes of your feedback on the phone now. If you were me and say you're putting them in your shoes, when I realize you're part one, what do you think the best thing I can do is right now?

Stephen Drew: Do you think the CVM portfolio is [00:46:00] okay? Or is there any feedback you'd say for the next application? And if you do that, I guarantee by being a human being as well, you're going to get a little bit of insight. And it's because there's a fine balance between you're still retaining professionalism, but it's okay to ask for how, you're just going to, you're just going to.

Stephen Drew: You've got to, you've got to micromanage your, you've got to do it in a way that you ask for a little bit of help and you make it quick and easy for them. You can't expect for someone to write an essay. You can't expect for them to write back. That is unfortunately unpractical, but what you can do is you, and they probably not going to reply in an email.

Stephen Drew: And this is the big thing. It's if you send an email, I'd love to get. Massive feedback, then the chances are that's too much work. It reminds me when I did an essay, my dissertation, and I asked the company to give me loads of information, and they were on board with me coming there and asking questions, but then I remember I got [00:47:00] lazy, and I wrote to them loads of questions in the email, and they never replied well.

Stephen Drew: And it's the same thing, if you ring up and you're human, and you make it really quick and easy for them, by respecting them, Respecting the opinion of this goal, can I have one minute of your time right now to say what's your quick thoughts on what you would keep or change on the CV, because that one minute would mean the world to me.

Stephen Drew: Absolutely. And then, I think if you do that, and you pause, and you be brave, and you let them speak, then you'll probably get an answer.

Will Ridgway: Yeah, you'll never get feedback, really, via email, unless it's just a simple, no, we're not looking anymore. You'll never get constructive feedback unless it's over the phone, because They're there talking to you now, they might as well give you a quick 30 second feedback, and so that's the best way to do it.

Direct Approach vs. Recruitment Agencies
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Will Ridgway: Also, one other thing that we've not really talked about yet, that I do want to just bring up as well, is that as a Part 1 or someone with very little professional [00:48:00] experience, the best place for you to approach are employers as opposed to recruitment agencies, because recruitment agencies generally are focused on people with very little experience.

Will Ridgway: And I think it's important to have prior professional experience because they've been tasked to find specific a specific set of skills, which is quite often difficult to find in someone, like as a part one. So it's always best to focus your time and effort directly to employers. Because

Stephen Drew: yeah,

Will Ridgway: do you have anything to add to that, Steve?

Will Ridgway: So

Stephen Drew: no you're correct. So a typical role, so at McDonald and company, where we work on the recruitment team, there will be teams in an office and let's say it's a healthcare team and we will be tasked with finding someone who has worked. Projects, which are healthcare, hospitals, and that uses certain software.

Stephen Drew: And because that's really hard to find and the requirements to fit the team and niche, that's where we're involved. Whereas a graduate, they are at the [00:49:00] entry level. And a graduate, you're basically learning from the ground up. You have an awful lot of value to add. However, you could fit on a healthcare team, as you could fit on a residential team, as you could fit on a commercial team.

Stephen Drew: And you could learn technical stages, or you could learn front end. There is no I'm not needed to get involved, and that's the thing. Now, I'd rather pass on the words of wisdom, and when you get further in your career, and you're looking for particular things, you're looking for a step up, probably.

Stephen Drew: Or you're looking for an architectural practice, which is going to give you a good quality work life balance. Or maybe you want to move cities, or maybe you want to ask me the right place for your career. Then we can do that at that point in the short term though. You have to approach companies directly and get that first entrance into the industry yourself.

Stephen Drew: And I'd love to help, and that's why we're doing these, to give you guys the [00:50:00] maximum amount of value and the amount of resources that I can to get you on that first part of your journey. And we can always keep in touch with us all now, but that's the best way to go. So at this juncture right now, It's about looking at the two other ones that we've done on this, looking at all the resources and learning together, improving on CVs and portfolios, sharing each other's failures, and also being proud when someone gets a job, because jealousy doesn't carry, it doesn't do anyone well, so actually, together, by doing it all together and pooling resources and learning, you're increasing your chances of getting the job.

Stephen Drew: And we can do it together. So I think that's the best way. And actually it's stuff like the social and what I like about the architecture social, there's some really smart people in the community. And the thing is, it's like anything else. [00:51:00] I'm available. You're available. The thing is, though, you have to get involved and you have to bring it.

Stephen Drew: And it's the same kind of attitude that we're talking now about employers, that the people in their careers, their architectural careers, that bring it. People who are present in the office, people who are engaged in, on the Architecture Social, they're going to get more attention. They're going to get more conversation and go further in their career.

Stephen Drew: It's the way of life. So that's my challenge is that. Create the Architecture Social, exactly like your job hunt. The more engaged you are, the more on there, the more you're talking, A, you might make friends, B, there's already one or two employers starting to be on there. And as well as that, you're going to soak up the resources, go out there and feel pumped up and you can do it.

Stephen Drew: And you'll get a good job out of it. So that's my thoughts. It's like engage with the job process. Engage with the social. Engage with people who are looking with you. Don't hide almost your job applications. Embrace it with each other. I remember I, I give my best friend, we were sharing this where we [00:52:00] applied with each other.

Stephen Drew: And it's because there's no point doing that because you know what? They're going to hire the person. Who fits the bill and who is the right fit? And if the more engaged and the more you out there, the more you show you, and guess what the ideal scenario is, you would see a few practices and then you get a choice of where you want to work.

Stephen Drew: And that would be a great position to talk about. And we can talk about that down the line, but for me, I'd like to leave.

Final Thoughts and Encouragement
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Stephen Drew: On this high note that we're at of going out there and creating opportunity and create an opportunity is by participating. It's talking with people on the social. It's ringing practices up.

Stephen Drew: It's being on LinkedIn, not waiting for the conversation to come to you, though. LinkedIn. Being on there, the best person that's going to start it is you. You doing research, you getting on the phone, finding out what events are on, finding out what companies are on planning projects have gone through planning and speaking to people, friends and colleagues, [00:53:00] and.

Stephen Drew: Moving out there because what I would love is even now we're starting on the social we're seeing people posting talking about jobs opportunities and applying for it and giving feedback and letting them know when they've got a job and when they haven't and I think that really is the takeaway so you've got to take things you've got to seize the moment you've got to go for it.

Stephen Drew: And do you know what? I'm going to put it actually on the social at the end of it. I'm going to put a question about where people are at with their job search. And I'm also going to say about talk about any rejections and also talk about when someone's got a job. Because someone did message me yesterday that they got a job and I remember thinking we should celebrate that.

Stephen Drew: So let's all do it together. Let's all get involved. But remember you have to put yourself out there, with all the will in the world, you can have all the support, you are going to be the driving force, and do you know what, you can get that job, you just have to go out there and do it, so put yourself out there, get rejected, keep going, talk, [00:54:00] get involved, don't be afraid to pick up the phone.

Stephen Drew: You know that old,

Jack Moran: You know that old expression that says good things come to those who wait? I think it's the opposite when it comes to this topic, isn't it? Yes! Things will not come to you, don't wait is the opposite, yeah. Good things come to those who can't often

Stephen Drew: go. Make your own luck! I think that's a close one.

Stephen Drew: Do you know there's a quote in a book I read, and it was a famous tennis player, And they said, wow you're very lucky. And he said something along the lines of, do you know what? The more I practice, the luckier I get. And it's going to be the same like this. People go, wow, you're lucky to get a part one job, but guess what?

Stephen Drew: You sent your application out to hundreds of places. You went for interviews and not everyone took you on board. No you got turned down, but you know what? You got there in the end and then you can go down the pub with your mates. And then we go, you're lucky to get a job in COVID. And it ain't luck, it's hard skill.

Will Ridgway: Absolutely. Everyone in our, everyone who's working in architecture has been rejected in an interview from an [00:55:00] application before. But, they've still got a job because they continue to graft and, and seize that moment make their own luck. So it's important just to keep keep pushing with your search.

Will Ridgway: No matter how much rejections you get some constructive feedback. You might not get any feedback, but it's important just to keep going and keep persevering along the way. And then share your stories with everyone, because you'll probably find that everyone else is experiencing exactly the same as you.

Will Ridgway: So you're not on your own.

Stephen Drew: I love it. And okay. I want to hear back from how everyone's search is going. And. I think we'll leave it on that note, so be out there, listen to what Will said, listen to what Jack said and me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be available, I'm on LinkedIn, but more importantly, message me on the social, message me, get in touch.

Stephen Drew: I want to hear how the job search is going, message us and let us know. And in the meantime, I'm gonna open up my Amazon package, and Jack's gonna be stopped for getting nagged by whoever's nagging him in the background. We're all gonna hop on with our real life as well, and keep going. But I think that's nice.

Stephen Drew: We've been [00:56:00] an hour. So thank you everyone who was in, in the, joined us. I really appreciate it. I'd love to hear your feedback and comments. Thank you, Jack, for hosting us. Thank you, Will, for coming as well. But I tell you what, you've been static for half of it. It's like a picture. with the sound.

Will Ridgway: That's because my pixels don't pick up me moving.

Stephen Drew: Now, don't worry. And thank you to Amazon for bringing my new chopping board. And I can't remember the other thing is, but I will let you know. I think it's, I think it's clothes hangers. So thanks guys. Exciting. We'll leave it there. We'll end them out there. Thank you so much.

Jack Moran: There we go. Thanks guys. Have a nice week.

Jack Moran: Thank you, everyone. Thanks.