What has Augmented and Mixed Reality got to do with Architecture?

What has Augmented and Mixed Reality got to do with Architecture?
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] It's Tuesday, Tuesday special, strap in, we're going somewhere else. Is it the Metaverse? Oh, yeah, I think you're all fed up about me talking about the Metaverse. Maybe my next guest, maybe he's in the Metaverse. Maybe not. Have you heard of augmented reality? Have you watched the Matrix? Hmm. Get them QR codes out.

It's Peter. 16 seconds. We're going to talk all about it. And what are you all doing at lunch today? Was it a prep? Was it a Tesco meal deal? I hear they've gone up now. Oof. Anyways, four seconds.

Hello everyone, it's Tuesday. Thank you for joining me on LinkedIn. I have an awesome guest. Sorry, James, I will introduce you [00:01:00] properly, but you're right. I hear Tesco's put up the Tesco meal deal prices. So we're, we're, we live in a strange world, but meal deals aside, because you are an architectural professional that I admire from the industry, but James, I'm going to bring up your full name and details here.

So James, James Lee Burgess. FRSA member like myself need to ask you how to use the membership, but how are you James? Are you okay? I'm great. Very good. Looking forward to the football later. Are you? Well, I won't keep you too long then. Last night, everyone was beeping in London and all that stuff, but I'm going to give you a virtual round of applause.

very much. So, James, you went to Cardiff University. Yes. As I, as I called you earlier, you're an adopted fellow Welshman, but a Cornish man yourself. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself, James, and what your current business is, and maybe a little [00:02:00] bit of your background in architecture as well?

James Lee Burgess: Sure. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on Stephen. Uh, great to be here. Um, yeah, so I am an architect, ARB registered still, still hanging in there and, um, studied at Cardiff for the whole degree. Um, brought up in Cornwall. Made my way to Cardiff, then went to London to do my year out and spent 10 years in London after that, once qualified doing, uh, social housing, lots of mixed use projects.

Then I ended up moving to sunny Norfolk, which is where I am now after having kids and carried on my architecture here for like, oh, that's probably about 13 years. And then I had the opportunity to set up. My own practice and I did that in 2019 and originally that was more of a traditional architecture practice but always had the vision to move [00:03:00] into augmented reality and mixed reality because it seemed like a bit of a game change, well a game changer for the industry and um, we invested very heavily in something called Microsoft HoloLens which is a mixed reality device, HoloLens 2.

Yeah, and deployed that on sites and began our journey into mixed reality and then after that AR. So yeah, and now I'm about a year ago. We changed full direction to AR and MR development studio focusing on the built environment. So yeah, it's all fairly new still, but going well.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. And so I just got to comment quickly, James, if you can hear like banging above me, I've got some roofers.

Who are like trying to fix my, the roof that in the, in the building I'm in. So there's a 5 percent chance that like a builder will just fall down and join us, join us [00:04:00] on, on the live stream, which unfortunately will be, yeah, it won't be mixed or augmented. It will be a real person, unfortunately, smashing the physical environment.

Yeah, well, I've

James Lee Burgess: got, I'm next to the entry door to the studio here, and I've realized that there's a beep that occurs every time somebody comes through, so apologies if that starts to It's, it's alright, don't

Stephen Drew: worry, you're in good company. Unprofessional, letting the builders know, and the door that goes on.

But, um, it's very interesting what you do, James, because In the last few weeks, I've been looking for architecture careers in the metaverse and you dropped me a really nice message where you talked about, you know, augmented and mixed reality and you kind of teased with the, the, the M word and, and you, you wouldn't be alone in that because in terms of the metaverse, I think there's definitely something exciting about it, but at the same time, I Everyone's got a different opinion as they should do as, as, as practicing [00:05:00] architects.

But we'll go on to the Metaverse a bit later. What is very interesting though, and I'll bring you a website in a bit, and you can, you know, we can see some of the work you've done with clients with BT, but you know, we augmented reality. So I remember the best example I can think of augmented reality, James, is Pokemon Go.

Me and my ex partner knocking around London. Um, trying to find Pokemons. I had a glitch actually where you could ride the DLR in London because it's very slow. Sometimes I would catch a Pokemon sitting on the DLR, you know what I'm saying? But that was one of the best examples, um, that I could think of.

What is, in terms of construction use, so Pokemons aside, if someone's thinking Augmented Reality, what's that got to do with construction? Do you want to give a little bit of a flavor of the kind of things that you, um, You see good use cases of it, Az.

James Lee Burgess: Yeah, well, I think, I think the [00:06:00] ability to overlay data and 3D content on the real environment around you safely is, is the main, um, use case here, especially in terms of construction.

And the work we did using HoloLens 2 and working with Trimble as well, Trimble Connect on those devices, uh, allowed us to use, uh, mixed reality. On construction sites, um, it's, uh, because of the, um, the ability, because you're always aware of your environment, you're able to overlay service layouts, um, proposed, um, Structures, et cetera.

You can also do remote, um, assist. So you're doing a video call direct into the headset. It allows you to place content live on site. So that, that was a good example and a good trial. So I think, I think there's opportunities there, but then I think also moving it right back to the front end, I think there's a real opportunity in terms of how we revolutionize things like [00:07:00] planning and public consultation.

Oh, yeah. Proposals, you know, on site so people can look at these communities, can sort of dissect them a bit more as opposed to being stuck on the page. I think there's a real opportunity to just, you know, tell some more engaging stories and also, you know, move things out of the 2D world. I think that's the key thing.

So moving beyond the frame, I think is the phrase. So not constantly working. Either on a, on a, on a screen or on a piece of paper, because a lot of people struggle with that still. So, you know, it's, it's quite, access is important. Accessibility is good.

Stephen Drew: Very interesting. So, how do you differentiate, um, between, um, Augmented Reality AR and Mixed Reality MR.

So, I never, I always, I used to think wrongly they were the same thing, James, but Well,

James Lee Burgess: I mean, I think they're [00:08:00] pretty interchangeable. There's so many different, like, acronyms now, isn't there? I mean, a lot of people I speak to call AR, AI. So, it's, it's You know, there's a real, there's a lot of these phrases sloshing around.

I mean, mixed reality, I think is more, um, that's like a, it's like a sort of, that's a combination between VR so it's kind of immersive, but it's in your real environment and you can explore it in, you can walk around objects, you can interact with them. I think AR, I think. If you were looking for a definition is more based on screen based interaction.

So I'd say, I mean, mixed reality kind of came about through Microsoft trying to market the HoloLens, which is a cool device. Um, but, and it is very different to using a phone, for example. So yeah, that's kind of where we sit on that.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Very cool. Do you remember the Google, um, glasses? You know, I got invited to their big showroom in London, which at the time was King's Cross when it was.

being done and I was, [00:09:00] you know, going around and I was kind of translating stuff that you see and it was cool. What happened to it, James? It kind of died, didn't it? It didn't take

James Lee Burgess: off commercially. No, well, that's one of the big, that's always one of the big reference points for things like AR glasses, which you're going to see a bit of an explosion of AR glasses in the next year or two.

Oh, really? It's kind of already started, a lot of the main hardware providers are developing AR glasses. Devices. I mean, HoloLens led the way, but I think with Google Glass, I mean, Google have released a second generation Google Glass, but it's more aimed at enterprise. So work scenarios.

Stephen Drew: I think, I don't

James Lee Burgess: think people were ready for it.

I don't think the public were ready for it. And also it was kind of not ready for public release. Yeah. So a few things.

Stephen Drew: It felt like that. It felt like a fun tech demo, not something I would generally buy, you know. But one of the main

James Lee Burgess: things was the fact that it had a camera on it. And I [00:10:00] think. And, uh, Public adoption of AR, you know, a lot of AR relies on, um, creating a map of your environment to place content.

So, you need a camera presently. And I think that social contract in public of having a device which has a camera on it, on your face is, is something that needs to be, um, got over, you know. So I think that the Ray Ban glasses, um, which have a camera in, And you tap to record, you know, there's a similar issue there.

So it's like a privacy thing, which I think was one of the ultimate issues, you know, even nowadays we're a lot more used to people recording environments and taking photos. But I think that's still that social contract thing of having a pair of glasses that, Could be recording you at any time, still needs to be looked at, so that's an interesting one.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough. I mean, last bit, because I'm gonna, I'll show people what you're doing a bit, because I thought it was really interesting, right? But last, last thing before you go onto it, and you'll laugh, because when I [00:11:00] was a part two, I was playing around with my Kinect at the time, you know, Kinect came out, and everyone who thought they were super cool hackers like me, who weren't really, that basically would download their, SDK pack and the connect and, you know, try to do some experiments, but that was, I mean, again, I think the connect was ahead of its time because it wasn't very accurate, James, because they were the cameras were having said that, though, you could start to read the room for like 100 at the time and get a sense of, like you say, that In the middle, because it was kind of AR and, you know, it was really, it was, you could make an, you know, an augmented version of where you were and it kind of read the room and stuff.

So, um, I'm glad, I'm glad things have moved on, you know, but the connect. Again, it's on the list next to the Google, the Google glasses, right? You know?

James Lee Burgess: Indeed, yeah. I mean, Microsoft have a bit of a history of going down dead ends at the wrong time. But hopefully, I think all of their stuff is [00:12:00] really important, though, because I think the Connect has informed the HoloLens, for example.

And, uh, I've seen some really cool stuff where people are using Connects to, um, Holo project, um, transmit holograms into the HoloLens. So you've got a live Live transmitting of a person playing a guitar, for example, those kind of things. That's like holoporting, that kind of technology. So yeah, it's um, yeah, it's interesting how these things sort of pop up and then slip away when the sort of like the context isn't right.

Definitely.

Stephen Drew: It's true. Well, I'm going to bring up your website quickly, which is urban xr. com. Let me just, Blue Peter style, bring it up here. Hey, there we go. I've got all my tabs here. Luckily I haven't got anything naughty there, but I should have put the Chrome tab, but we're fine. So, Yeah, exactly. I'm quite boring.

I always say to my partner, I'm like, you can look at my phone. It's just work there, James, you know, so nothing that spicy and [00:13:00] exciting in the tabs. But here's one of the videos on your website that loads up straight away. I'd love to hear what this project is in your words. Yeah, so this

James Lee Burgess: was a real bit of a landmark project for us, really.

We, uh, beginning of last year, Beginning of this year. Sorry, God, your brain gets addled with all this stuff. It's been a

Stephen Drew: long year for you James

James Lee Burgess: though. It was this year. And BT approached us to have a look at doing an AR experience which covered smart cities. So smart cities is one of their, um, they have some software that pulls together Internet of Things and data for cities.

So this was looking to kind of give a visual representation of that. piece of software and their abilities. So we got this model of London and used our visual positioning system, which is provided by Immersal, which is a great product. And that's one of the things that has enabled [00:14:00] us to do these kind of larger scale, um, very accurate AR experiences.

So this doesn't work off a QR code. This works off the device. recognizing, uh, the context it's in, and then it loads in, um, these different elements of screens and 3D models. So this was used as a presentation tool at their Customer Experience Center at their brand new offices in London, at One Brahm, and yeah, went down a storm.

Covered smart city data, smart ports, which is one of their areas that they like to focus on, and also agri tech. So, yeah.

Stephen Drew: I love it. I was getting excited there. I think you've got a missed opportunity, James, for battleships, you know, in your, um, in your AR. I was seeing the stats for that and I was like, that is a way to bring battleships back in the 2022 or 2023 shortly, you know.

Yeah, I want that.

James Lee Burgess: Let's, let's talk about [00:15:00] that after.

Stephen Drew: You can have that idea for free, you know, just send me a, just send me a copy. But you can keep all the royalties. I mean, this looks really cool. Now, what I'd love as well, because you mentioned at the start in particular, and I think it's important, you are, you are a qualified architect, which is great.

So what caught your eye with these platforms then, James? Because now, you mentioned before, you've done some, Traditional architecture, you know, you are an architect to practice in some shape or form, but you've made the decision and founding director and stuff to go, right, I'm going to lean into, into these awesome, you know, presentations, you know, this cool stuff you're doing at BT, these interactive displays, which, which they use.

So, um, you know, why did you decide to do that then?

James Lee Burgess: Yeah, well, very good question. I think originally, at the start, um, it was, it [00:16:00] became apparent to me that as soon as you could place, like, large scale interactive 3D content in the spaces that we occupy every day like our towns and cities this was going to be a whole new area of you know urban design essentially I think that's probably the best way to look at it and you know you can influence um how people use space and interact with it via these kind of AR experiences so the concept that Um, I mean, when I started on this journey in 2019, that kind of wasn't possible, so it was, I was quite lucky in a way these technologies have advanced and pushed forward at the same time as the business.

Um, so yeah, being able to do, you know, uh, augmented reality, um, exhibitions, uh, hidden history was one of the things I'm really passionate about. Being able to use AR for, um, you know, storytelling. That's one of the most important things. I think being able to tell different narratives within urban environments about history, about, [00:17:00] um, you know, data, pollution, those kind of things in an accessible way, which I think AR can bring to all of those kind of, um, spaces, indoor and outdoor as well.

So, as soon as you can leverage 3D content outdoors accurately and to a good resolution. That's when it becomes very interesting and that's where we're focusing our efforts now as a business, definitely. The stuff with the exhibition kind of thing is really good as well because that demonstrates the technology and we've recently installed that London experience again at BT's headquarters in Suffolkham.

I love it. So, yeah. So, that was the main thing. It was like the ability to overlay and influence how urban spaces function through AR was one of the most exciting things and that's still the direction we're moving in.

Stephen Drew: I love it. Look at this crazy video. Oh, yeah. I'll just turn this, I'll just turn the sound off so I [00:18:00] don't get copyright strikes or whatever.

I've had that happen before. That's alright. We made the music for this. Oh, yeah. Good. Good. But, you know. I love it. Not every architect understands that, right? Basically, if you, if you put your favorite track on to a YouTube video, and if I play it, then I can get copyright infringed, which is not fun. Well, there's an interesting

James Lee Burgess: story about the music on that video, because it was actually done by my cousin's band.

I can get away with

Stephen Drew: it, isn't it? Here we go. See if it comes up. But it'll probably just The band is banded! I don't know, there'll probably be someone in their bedroom going, Ah, there you go, I'm gonna get the Architecture Social. Well, I only get a few views on them, on the YouTube channel. LinkedIn gets a lot, but yeah, you know, if someone wants my 30 views or whatever on YouTube, and the pennies Then they can, they can fight.

They can have it.

James Lee Burgess: Yeah. Yeah. So this, this project, um, we did this with Ipswich Business Improvement District, uh, last [00:19:00] year. So this was at the, at the start of last year, this came in. So we, the brief from the client was to do some kind of positive messaging using AR. And also, um, we came up with a concept of kind of like decorating historic buildings and making them, you know, eye catching, which we did.

Yeah. Yeah. And we did this overlay, um, with the thank you key workers message because obviously at the time we were in COVID. This never got released as a public app, but this uses the visual positioning system and it's super stable. You can look at it from different directions. And the idea was that, um, we could also allow people to select more information on the history of the town hall.

So it was kind of this getting people to look up at the building, take, take note of. how interesting it was, hopefully, and then delve a bit deeper into things like the carvings and the statues that were on the building. So that was the kind of, that was kind of our first Heritage concept as [00:20:00] it were. So, yeah,

Stephen Drew: I love it.

James Lee Burgess: We need to do that as a public app at some point.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I would try blowing it up bigger, but then the danger is, James, if I make it full screen, I don't get to see you and I'm in control of everything. Yeah, so the beautiful audience could be hijacking it. What is this last

James Lee Burgess: one? Sorry, am I allowed to take care of it?

So this is in the same place. This is a Christmas app, um, because, you know, I mean, I think there's a, there's a thing here in terms of, um, outdoor experiences for town centers and high streets. So Ipswich are really forward looking as a, as a town and, um, they commissioned us to do this public app. So this looks at, um, giving the experience on their main square at Corn Hill.

And we came up with the idea of a reindeer called Sammy, who walks down the steps and can provide some selfie opportunities.

Stephen Drew: This is closer to [00:21:00] Pokemon, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

James Lee Burgess: Yeah, yeah it is. And then loads of any number of people can watch this at the same time. So it's like it can be a crowd pleaser and then yeah, Sammy flies around the square and it's quite good fun trying to keep, keep it in focus.

So, you know, this was, even though this is like so quite frivolous, like a Christmas themed app. I think it's, you know, the complexity and the amount of rendering that's going on here is pretty complicated. And it just showed that we can do some pretty exciting things. Oh, look

Stephen Drew: at that. No, that is great. And you could have both ends of the scale, you know.

That's my view. And also I've got two little nieces. Well, they've grown up more now, James, but like, you know, this is the kind of thing I could see them playing with on their phone because otherwise, once you've got two little nieces, you know, if they're not happy,

And I've, I've learned parenting one on one shortcut, which people say is the best thing or the worst thing is. Give [00:22:00] your child a tablet, you know, and then generally survive a Christmas lunch or something. I

James Lee Burgess: desperately tried to get my daughters to be, you know, on the show reel for this, but obviously they were like, no dad, we're not doing

Stephen Drew: that.

It's far too embarrassing. You've got to do far more bravery on that, James, you've got to get a lot more McDonald Meals or something. Yeah, I mean,

James Lee Burgess: we have done some interesting stuff more in the architecture side of things, but unfortunately, it's kind of all under NDA, but I can't show any videos on it.

But we did do some really, really good stuff, honestly, in Sunderland, looking at the new developments going up there by the riverside, and we managed to put the proposed master plan, which is in a lot of detail, huge model. Um, on the site. And, uh, we did do a walk around with George Clark from the TV and he was using the app and it worked.

It was really impressive. So I think this whole idea of [00:23:00] presenting proposed developments using this technology is going to be something for the future for sure. And I don't think, I don't think many people realize that the technology is kind of there now to use. You've got, you've got platforms like, um, Niantic who made Pokemon Go, you know, they've got their plugins for.

AR, which is really good. And you've also got, uh, Snap from Snapchat. They're leading the way in lots of AR, but they're all looking at this world scale content that you can place. Permanently in outdoor or indoor scenarios. Yeah. Um, and we can do that now because the, the company we work with, Immersal are, um, that's, they're free to use and it's a really good product.

Difficult to get to grips with, but once you do, you can do stuff like the, you know, the reindeer and that kind of thing. And the model, so yeah.

Stephen Drew: Very cool. What I was going to ask is because obviously, I mean, you're now dealing with complicated jobs [00:24:00] and if someone's. Need someone to do some complicated or grandiose job, then cool, speak to you guys.

For architects that kind of want to dip their toes in the areas, you mentioned now one or two platforms as well. If you were starting out again, or if people are kind of curious watching this, I mean, where's a nice, uh, way into the world without being overwhelmed, James, you know?

James Lee Burgess: I think, I think looking at stuff that Unity does, Unity is a game engine, so that's kind of like a focal point for a lot of, um, for all the work we do really.

Um, so those kind of game engines, um, you know, I, I kind of know my way around it, but I don't get in the hard nosed end of it in terms of coding and things like that. I think, I think that a lot of, you know, one of the other reasons I got into this was because, you know, I've been an architect, we're working with 3D models and 3D content all the time.

We use CAD. BIM is super complicated, all that kind of stuff, so this moving towards using a gaming [00:25:00] engine and physics and things like that is kind of, I don't, I think for an architect, because of their background and training, it's not too much of a massive shift. Not too much. To be fair, you can, you can get an overview, which is why I think, you know, this, this kind of potential career direction is, is open to architects for sure.

Um, it does require some upskilling, but the way I found it is that I, um, I, uh, I basically, um, look to get the opportunities in. And then I work with a team of really great developers called, um, Unity Developers. And then I have a guy called Edbox Studios help me out with 3D content. So kind of like, um, it's not a permanent team, but we work regularly together.

And yeah, I, I try and pull it all together with my. Architectural Project Management Skills. I love it. Collaborative, collaborative working because you know, we're all used to that, you know, working in teams and collaborating. It's no different in the tech world. You know, that's [00:26:00] still a thing. Yeah. So, so yeah, but I think Unity is a good starting point.

There's also a really good, um, sort of free to use, um, Uh, AR platform called WorldCast, which I'll give a plug to. Um, it's worth checking out. Um, you, it allows you to make, um, placeable AR experiences for free. And it also, you can place content, um, fairly roughly in the real world. So it's not super accurate, but you know, there's those kind of things that can be done.

So,

Stephen Drew: yeah. Nice, you can, that's a few good tips for um, dipping your feet into it. So I can hear my roofers now scrubbing my roof. Is that the time to? No, we'll keep going a bit, but you know, if you need me to go louder, just, just say, you know. I can't hear them. Good, maybe this microphone's paying itself off with the, You know, the noise isolation.

I was going to, I've got a question that's popped up from someone in the audience, [00:27:00] James, and it's a more of a technical question. I think you touched upon it a little bit in your answer before where Daniel says, is this software, maybe it's, A bit more bigger than that is, you know, is AR or Mixed Reality capable of utilizing other plugins to overlay a 3D model, question mark, just thinking about how it could be used on site to show a Revit model or Acresyn model in the correct location.

Um, what's your thoughts on that, James?

James Lee Burgess: Well, we did exactly this in Sunderland. Um, we took the, um, I mean, it won't take a native Revit model. The key thing is getting, getting the 3D model into Unity. The game engine. So once you get it in there and kind of working, you can then deploy it using a visual positioning system or plug in SDK to Unity.

So our workflow for that was basically getting, getting a, uh, what do we use? We use an FBX file to go into, uh, [00:28:00] Unity. So generally you have to convert to FBX and, you know, Do maybe some little bits of rationalization, but it should come in okay. And then using, uh, for us the plugin by Immersal, uh, you can then push out a test app, but it's all via done apps.

So you kind of need to know a little bit about how to, to get an app. Um, published. We use, we use, um, apple a lot 'cause we can publish stuff on test flight. But you know, that's where, that's where I have a bit more of a gray area on publishing apps, I must admit. Oh. But you know, in a way it's, it's not, it's not super complicated.

I mean we did, we did that with a very complicated, um, master plan model. A lot of detail by Proctor Matthews on that site, so

Stephen Drew: that works. Very interesting. I, um, you were laugh years ago. Maybe I was one of the OGs in the space because, um, in, in Manchester during my part two, part of our project had augmented [00:29:00] reality and we were looking at a town called Burstham and the noise pollution and stuff.

So I loaded up, um, got all the data and loaded it up in the CryEngine. James, right? So, so, uh, you know, CryEngine, I know now it's a Unity and, and, and Unreal is where the cool kids are playing, but back then it was the CryEngine. But I learned quite quickly how you need to optimize the model. And if you just shove a BIM model into there, it will have 10 million triangles.

And, and the game engine will crawl to our hearts. So you have to like, you have to backwards engineer the models, which is an art form in itself, because. You've got to know what you can take from and what you can't and, and get those triangles. Isn't it? It's all polygons.

James Lee Burgess: Yeah. Polygons. Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's absolutely right.

So, you know, we've tested with successfully with like sort of millions of polygons, but we did [00:30:00] do some test work in central London. Again, I can't name, name the client, but it was for a huge skyscraper in central London. And, um, We got the Revit model, but we did have to strip all of the internals out of it, because when the developers were trying to get that into Unity, it just kind of flopped over, basically.

So, yeah, that's one of the risks, and it's not smooth yet. I mean, in terms of the HoloLens and using Trimble Connect, you can put Revit files into it, but again, there's a restriction on the HoloLens to, you know, On the headset itself, because it can be a standalone thing to 10, 000 polygons, which is not a lot.

Um, but one of the projects we're looking at now is looking to try and, um, combine, um, the AR plugins with, uh, remote rendering. Um, so, that's where we can take content held on an edge server and [00:31:00] Render it into the headset over, over an edge, you know, Wi Fi connection essentially. And then that releases the render power because the headset can render in 4k.

So it can do a lot of, a lot of detail. It's just that you've got to, you've got to shift the processing power to an edge computer, which is the next, that'll be the next thing, essentially cloud rendering and edge compute. So there you go. So that's the

Stephen Drew: next thing. Now, the, the kind of the topic that brought this all together is because I was posting some Metaverse content, and as you said, the M words, so James, what's your thoughts on, um, current forays into the architecture Metaverse?

And you can, you know, we're all, we're all friends. Yeah, you can tell us. The unfiltered version. Well, what's your thoughts on what's happening?

James Lee Burgess: Well, I think it's like a double edged sword, the metaverse, isn't it? I think it's, um, I think there's, I don't know what it is, [00:32:00] but I know it isn't just VR. And it isn't just virtual worlds.

So, you know, I would make a strong argument that includes AR. And I think this overlaying of data on the real world and digital twins is going to be, you know, that is going to be a future direction for this conversation, 100%. I don't, I don't, um, even though we're called XR Extended Reality, we haven't done a lot of VR work purely because I haven't really sorted out.

I think there's lots of companies doing that at the moment, and I think, I think there's a misconception that the Metaverse is in a VR headset, and it's all about Ready Player One and those kind of things. I think I think there's I think what we're talking about here is the Developing a 3D language that we can use in many different situations and exploring without borders.

I think that's, even though I said I don't know what the metaverse is, I think that's kind of the direction we're going into. Obviously the [00:33:00] 3D internet is something that's rolled out quite a lot. But I think that, that just as much applies to, doing stuff in our real world and I can't sometimes I can't get my head around the fact that we should use immense server power to create virtual worlds when we've got a real world here which would take a lot of time to model a lot of effort so if we can enhance what we have and engage people with the world around us using a I think

install these for sure so yeah The Metaverse, I think, I think it, I think it's a good thing and it's a great conversation to be having and it kind of got kicked off by, uh, Facebook, didn't it? Really, they went for Meta and, uh, it's interesting. I read an article today that said that, um, the R& D [00:34:00] budget is primarily now focused on AR glasses.

So, Meta. So that's, I think that's a telly. They had a lot of cats, hadn't they?

Stephen Drew: Sorry, James. I don't know if I cut over you there. There was a bit of lag here and I can't tell if it's my roofers or if it's someone downloading on your end, you know? I

James Lee Burgess: don't know, I am on an office Wi Fi, so it could be, could be me.

Stephen Drew: Someone's downloading some naughty torrents in the background, huh? Well, I think, I think we covered a lot of the bases there. What I was going to say is, um, Um, is there, do you have any questions for me or anything at all at the moment?

James Lee Burgess: Yeah, well, I'd be interested in, I think actually I'm just going to, I'm just going to add one more thing onto my metaverse.

Please

Stephen Drew: go ahead.

James Lee Burgess: I think, I think we got, uh, I think there's a similarity potentially between, um, Because [00:35:00] we saw NFTs, obviously, if you've kept track of the whole NFT buzz and things like that. So that was like a classic example, I think, of people attaching a real world metric to something like, Okay, we can make a JPEG.

Um, rare and, you know, viable. And now everybody thinks that NFTs are just about buying bits of nf, you know, JPEGs online. But actually there's the whole, the whole blockchain thing and non fungible tokens goes much deeper than that. Yeah, there's a lot more to it, but that's a classic example where something gets hijacked by a kind of like a real world metric.

And I think. I think the thing we've got to remember with the Metaverse is that, you know, I think a lot of people have jumped on this virtual world thing because they can, they can kind of get their heads around a virtual copy of a space or, you know, making things in a virtual environment. And I think what we're going to find is this, we're going to definitely slide back towards this potentially more [00:36:00] complex question of overlaying data in our real, in our environment and in our homes as well.

Because that's, that's the direction. Certainly Apple, uh, probably going to blow it apart in the next two years, I think, with what they come up with. So we'll have to wait and see. Um, but in terms of my questions to you, I think, I think, well, in terms of, uh, architects working in the metaverse, I mean, have you seen, have you had a lot of.

Feedback on that and have you had anybody that's looking into AR from that side?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, good question. So the first one with architects working in the metaverse, I think like everything, it depends how Ballsy, if I can say that word. I think I can say ballsy without LinkedIn, like, um, censoring me. But if you, if you're ballsy as an entrepreneur, then you kind of got to go in 110%.

So there's a lot of architects I see, James, who maybe they work their day job and they do these awesome [00:37:00] projects. And that tends to be most of the architects at the moment. Yet there are one or two entrepreneurial companies I'm familiar with. Such as Spaces and Sunken Blimps, those are all kind of cool names and, um, who else?

So decent architecture do stuff, but they do work as well. And I think that, for instance, Sunken Blimps are quite impressive. I had them on my podcast and where they're really impressive is that they're profitable. They charge their clients a lot of money for, These virtual spaces, which is great because it's proof of concept.

Yeah. But they are phenomenal, you know, and they're cutting edge. And I think that, I think because they've rolled the dice, James, and they've gone all in, like you set up a company. They've just made it and they're going for it and they're, they're just, they're going for it. Innovating in the space, and therefore, right now they're doing really well.

But I think that the, the question is, is it easy to monetize stuff in, in the metaverse [00:38:00] or NFTs? And the answer, I don't think it is. I think it's really hard. And um, you know, a quick example in that is that I experimented with NFTs and luckily it was not my core business. So it was just a bit of experimentation, James.

Mm. You know, just getting my head around the concept. But, you know, I couldn't really make a business out of it and, and I think that's the big question. So to answer, to answer what you said, there are some architects designing in the metaverse which are doing really well and profitable, but I do think the space is still very fragile and very new.

And there will be a bubble that's going to pop. And I think that, I think that a few key players will, will really grow in the space and be the de facto one. So for example, Saha Hadid is also, they have a department which specifically keeps an eye on this stuff, but I think it's still way too early. And I think that like crypto is getting wobbles and stuff.

I [00:39:00] think NFTs and, and, and the Metaverse will have a big wobble. And I, I, you know. For example, last, last thing I'd like to touch on that point is like, there's so many Metaverse platforms, you know, and it's like, which one's going to be the one that wins? And, and, you know, is it Sandbox? Is it Decentraland? I don't know if you've been in Decentraland, but I was kind of I wasn't particularly wowed.

It wasn't like me putting on Ready Player One, right? And I'm like, but then Spatial, which has less blockchain and stuff is a really good app in terms of, cause I think the accessibility is amazing on, on, on Spatial because you can load it up on your Android or, or your TV and, and you can go in the virtual reality.

And you touched upon that earlier of headsets. It's like, I've got a HTC Vive headset. It's a pain in the ass to set that thing up all the time, James, you [00:40:00] know, I can't use them. Yeah. So accessibility

James Lee Burgess: is an issue.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. And like you could have a client and you could set something up, but what happens if they move something?

You have to be there. You have to watch it. So very fiddly things get in the HTC Vive. They're amazing. You know, but like you said, it's very fiddly and not accessible. So I think there, there is something in there, but we will see what the next few months mention, you know,

James Lee Burgess: I remember, um, I remember years ago when Second Life and like, you know, launched and things.

Yeah, totally. And, uh, some people were saying, Oh, you know, maybe there's, there's work in that for architects and things like that. Well, you know, that was, God, was that like 2000 and I don't know, was it 2006 or something like that? I can't remember. It was a long time ago and it's still going. So that was the kind of very original, the original sort of

Stephen Drew: Well, the Second Life [00:41:00] Metaverse now, James, but I He's got his eye on it, but you're right.

I used to, you know, go on all the old chat rooms and the second life and it's a bit wee edge, but also a bit fun. Like, you know what I mean? You go on. You can upset someone if you mistreat their house and stuff, you know, moving around. So it's, it's, it's a strange little world. I tell you the other bit on that subject, which is mad, because the gaming industry is so prolific.

And I mean, I've played video games, even when they were uncool, James, you know, when you had to like lie, they'd be like, what's your hobbies? I'd be like, I don't know, rugby. I mean, I don't know what a PC game is. All right. So I used to, I used to, it was uncool back then, but now the video game industry is like Call of Duty, millions and millions and millions.

You talked about earlier, Unity is a game engine, but you know, there's a lot of construction and stuff that's built upon the technologies of the game industry. And what I was going to say is [00:42:00] one quick point where there's EVE Online is like a space game and I never, it was never really for me. But people buy spaceships for like hundreds of thousands of pounds on that platform.

So, yeah, yeah, you know, and they can be from like 20 quid to a hundred quids. And there was like one starship with like loads of places to wine and dine your guests and stuff. And it was like, It sold for something like three, four hundred grand. And now don't quote me on the exact numbers, but it's out there.

I'll, I'll try to put the link into it after this. However, people buy these faces online and that's where I think it's funny. It's all crazy until someone pays it. And then I'm like, well, if someone's paid it. Then there is an industry there and I do think that there is roles for architects to create in the metaverse of different game platforms, but I'm just not convinced I know which one it is yet, which would be the one, you know,

James Lee Burgess: [00:43:00] it's very, but I think it's a very tough, you know, I mean, it's really, yeah, good point on gaming industry because I think, I mean, interestingly, I've had I've been doing a couple of bits with gaming course locally in Norfolk, you know, so that side of the industry is interested in what we're doing in terms of a commercialization and using gaming engines to deliver commercial stuff, um, which is interesting, but, you know, I don't, I don't really get much engagement from the architectural side.

side of things, which is kind of understandable because I think just on that point, I think there's a lot, there's, you know, if you, if you, if you're an architect and you've got a profession and there's a lot of, there's some stability there. I mean, I experienced this as well. It's like leaving, leaving that, Path, well, you'll know about this and doing something different is very scary, you know, and you get this massive imposter syndrome thing And some people are like, well, what's this?

What's this person doing? Why are they even attempting to do this kind of thing? So it is it is it is a [00:44:00] scary scary area to get into and you know I understand that not everybody's gonna have the the belief to do that, but But I think, I think you're right in the next five, everything's five to 10 years in this space, isn't it?

But I think it's happening. But I think the interesting thing about gaming is that, you know, there's a lot of gaming people out there that already make amazing spaces in games. So, but I think where architects might have, can have the advantage is this merging of the real world and AR and mixed reality.

Because we know how the real world works. We know how people behave in spaces. So it's curating how those interventions, digital interventions in the future, will affect how spaces work and how they function. I think that's a real, that's a key point, definitely.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I, I, I could, I could not agree more. So we watch this space, we watch the dreaded N word and we see where augmented and virtual reality goes at.

Is there [00:45:00] any last questions you wanted to ask me, James, at all about anything?

James Lee Burgess: No school prediction for England,

Stephen Drew: Wales. I'm not a huge follower of sports. It's just outed me on, on public, aren't I? I get, you know, it'll make you laugh. I get on teams of like my parents every now and then and be like, go on Wales, you know, and it seems like we're hanging in there for dear life.

But, um, I've got to support Wales, you know. Oh, of course. Even though I live in London, it can get tricky, you know, at least I won't go to the pub wearing a Welsh, like, you know, football shirt. Yeah, well, we're, we're seeing this like the little brother of like England, you know, like England gives us a lot of.

Flack, but then if someone else picks on us, you guys always stick up for me, you know? Well, you're English, so technically, aren't you? Yeah, yeah, I am. But you probably spent more time studying in Wales [00:46:00] than I did, so

James Lee Burgess: This is a fact. This is a fact. And Cornwall does not yet have a national team, but you know, I think they'd probably go for it if they could.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, but you've got Cornish pasties, which are amazing. Do you know what I mean? You don't need a football team when you, you've got them things. They're blooming lovely, aren't they? You know? Yeah, it's a secret weapon. I haven't had a Cornish pasty in ages, you know. I fancy one. I, you know,

James Lee Burgess: yeah. I don't know.

Anyway, yeah, when I go home, it's a bit of a disaster zone, but I don't eat them outside of Cornwall, you see, I ban myself. Do you?

Stephen Drew: I

James Lee Burgess: ban,

Stephen Drew: yeah. I actually went to a rugby match and I had a Cornish pasty, so it all kind of fits in, mate, you know? There you go, the full circle of pasty sport. Well, there we go.

Well, absolutely terrible football predictions from me. I failed you all. Failed you all. However, I think, um, the conversation was more [00:47:00] productive in, in learning more about AR and VR and XR and all the MR's. All the, all the something R's. But James, you, you're an absolute legend. I'll bring up your website.

One more time now, where can people find you if they want to chat more about augmented reality?

James Lee Burgess: LinkedIn's always a good one. I'm a good LinkedIn dweller, so direct message or invite to connect on there. Or jameslee at urban xr. com. That'll get me on the email.

Stephen Drew: Lovely. Well, James, thank you for bearing with me.

Maybe my dodgy connection or your dodgy connection. We've done it. And the end, and I've really enjoyed speaking to you, so I'm going to My pleasure, dude. Um, I'm going to end the live stream now. Thank you for you guys as well. I might have a podcast tomorrow. I have to check my diary, but more content coming soon in the short term.

If you want to talk anything [00:48:00] augmented reality or mixed reality, then James and his company is definitely a good place to start. Thank you so much, James. I'm going to end the live stream now. And have a good, um, rest of the day, everyone. Try to survive. Halfway there. And don't ask me about the sports. I, I won't be very good at that.

See, see you later. Bye.