Why should we (still) make Physical Models? Ft. Sophie and Max from Atomik Architecture

Why should we _still_ make Physical Models_ Ft_ Sophie and Max from Atomik Architecture
===

[00:00:00]

Stephen Drew: Oh my goodness, here we go! Get those scalpels ready, those white foam boards, we'll bring them out, all that stuff in the attic from your part one, I want to see it all. No AI, no virtual, it's mid journey, all that stuff, I want the real models. 20 seconds. All right, get ready.

Hello everyone. And welcome to this live stream special. I'm so excited to have some awesome guests here because today we're going to be talking [00:01:00] about the value of still making physical models in architecture in 2024. I'm not on about virtual models and don't worry, don't turn off yet. I know I love the Metaverse.

But there's something about real life as well. So maybe you were like me before struggling with models or still interested in it now. We're going to discuss the art of a physical model in architecture practices. Is it still going? Now for that, I've got some amazing guests here all the way. From halfway around London, East London.

Very cool. We've got Atomic Architecture and Sophie and Max. Sophie, Max, how are you today?

Atomik Architecture: Good, Jess. How are you?

Stephen Drew: I'm all right. I'm all right. Like I told you before, I'm on the slimming world, so I'm happy and hungry. But I'm keen to talk about the models, but before we do that, some people might not be familiar with Atomic Architecture, might not have spoken to you, while I speak to you and I love what you do.

First of all, can you just tell us a little bit about [00:02:00] yourself, who you are, first and foremost?

Atomik Architecture: I'm Sophie. I'm the Design Director here at Atomic. I'm Max. I'm the Delivery Director at Atomic.

Stephen Drew: We got the opposite end of the spectrum's complimentary then. But

Atomik Architecture: well together. Yeah, we do. We

Stephen Drew: work well together, but Max, you can design and Sophie, you can do a bit of technical as well,

Atomik Architecture: thought about it a lot lately. Yeah, we try to do each other's disciplines, but

Stephen Drew: I'll ask a little bit of a question about who's better at the physical models and you've got to tell me the real deal. But before that, Oh, okay. All right.

Atomik Architecture: Hands are not Yeah.

Stephen Drew: All right. The secret's out.

However, before we do that, you've done this amazing, beautiful overview of Atomic and I'll get all the link and we'll share the website, but maybe should we jump into that first and foremost? Would that be all right? All right. I'm going to bring it up. I'm not going to drive the presentation because last time I [00:03:00] messed it up.

Sophie, if you could walk visitors through our viewers through Atomic, the world of Atomic, that would be amazing.

Atomik Architecture: Yeah, that's great. So we're Atomic Architecture and actually this image you see here is what we're looking at the moment. We're in our model shop in I think it's an old trouser factory. It was like a corner shop in East London. And we always pride ourselves on the fact that we're non Specialist.

We do a variety of projects and we do everything from design and delivery. All equally as important. So we're not just pretty pictures and we're not just on site. And as we do a wide range of projects, we thought we'd just do a quick overview of all of those. We do education. So this is Thought Plodge, which is with Holland Park School, which finished a couple of years ago.

We've got a high rise, New Build Resi. This is Cairo Place in Croydon. We do cultural, this is a model that's in front of

Stephen Drew: There's the models here, isn't it, as well? There [00:04:00] you go.

Atomik Architecture: Barbuda Youth Symphony Orchestra, and it's their new headquarters in Antigua. So that's in the early stages, but one of our Very loved projects in the office.

This is an installation at the Baltic in Gateshead that we did with Alice Theobald, the artist. I think it's called It's Not Who You Are, It's What You Are. Yes. I think that was a few years ago, but we, we do installations contemporary. We do quite a lot of heritage buildings and a lot of Restoration, retrofit, buildings in like maybe the posher parts of West London, which are quite challenging in their own as well.

And then this is the delivery side that we do, which is the other sort of, it is all part of the same business, but this, I I head up a bit more and we take, we work with other architects, developers, clients. Contractors to deliver their sort of real life schemes.

Stephen Drew: very nice. Very nice.

Atomik Architecture: And this is the Royal [00:05:00] Academy of Dance, which we also worked as delivery architects, that one, with other architects designing. Which we'll speak about in a bit. Yeah

Stephen Drew: very

Atomik Architecture: that's like our short introduction to the topic. That's 8 years, more than to 15 seconds. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: when I came in, there was two things that stuck out in the studio. I was three things, because you did cook me food, and it was healthy food, actually. I think it would have passed. Next, the Slimming World. However, I digress. It's a beautiful studio and you have lots of physical models and the other thing which I think comes across in the presentation that you do as well.

It's not as, I think you do all the RIBA stages locally and international projects as well, but it feels like there's different typologies and sectors of a building. So it's not a particular house style per se, it's good design across all fronts. Is that a fair and accurate description?

Atomik Architecture: Yeah. Every project gets, yeah, we approach every project individually, for [00:06:00] sure. I don't think there's anything we approach with a mindset or a typology in our heads. No, and it's very much a studio. It's very collaborative. So it's, there's not one overriding voice and style. It's all of us in there together.

Apart from stairs. Stairs, everyone always goes, I've drawn something, can you have a quick look at these stairs? Stairs seems to be my thing.

Stephen Drew: I don't know how I would have done well on your team with my stairs, Mac, when I was apart. There's a reason they don't do that anymore. I'm like, these rises and treads, it doesn't work! People are like, nah, you just do it. Yeah, of course you do this. I'm like, where have you got that stair from? But that, that, that was before.

But I love it. I think that's great. I will then not ask you a favorite sector or building. 'cause it's like children, all your clients, they're all very special in, in different ways. But one of the things that I couldn't help but notice the beautiful room which you're in now, which is amazing that you're hearing it full of models and now some architectures.

Do less models than I've seen in the past. Some still believe it's [00:07:00] very important and we'll unpack that a little bit as well, but just on that note, you do a lot of models in the projects. And is it important to you both then?

Atomik Architecture: I think it's one of the fundamental, just, I mean as you said, like all the different things, like VR, all, beautiful renders, they're all important, but where model making and showing models and having models is part of the process, I think it just makes It's very collaborative and it makes everybody part of the team, even if it's you in the office or you on site with a contractor or with a client or, out in the community.

It's something that everybody can, because not many people can read a drawing.

Stephen Drew: Yeah,

Atomik Architecture: Not many architects can read a drawing. So it's it's a really, whereas everybody understands the model and very simply can get an idea across. And also we use it quite a lot. So it's not just always the fancy finished model that that you want everybody to see how amazing you are.

It's all the kind of rough and ready models that you're trying to work things out with as well. And I think it gives you the chance to step away from a screen, which is quite restrictive and [00:08:00] allows you to just free up your thoughts a bit more and you can be a bit more playful, can't you?

Yeah. Revit is brilliant, but everything is quite, it's already formed. So when you're doing a model, you can actually freeform stuff quite quickly and create something quite, I don't know, a bit more interesting at first. And the way that light, just from a light bulb falls on it, you just get a different perspective instantly.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, that's very good. I'm glad you said that because one of the questions that pops up and actually someone in the audience has said as well is, are physical models mostly used for marketing purposes, but you're saying it's very much part of the design process. Is it sometimes where models are just made for marketing or do you believe we got a project, we work on the model, like we work on the drawings, we work out the space and stuff.

Is that what you're saying?

Atomik Architecture: Yeah, both. There are some things like this, for example, there's a, there's, you can probably speak a bit more about that one, but there are stuff like this, which is mainly marketing in terms of selling an idea, but there's a lot of it which we'll go on to that soon. [00:09:00] it's literally just explaining the space to a client and watching them observe how that space works and then reading that and going back and redoing the brief.

And sometimes it's just, you've got to work something out that you can't do on a computer. Sometimes it is literally just making stuff by hand. Yeah, I think somebody pointed out the other day that architecture space, it's all very physical. But if you're looking at something virtually, you're not, you once you with VR and stuff, you can get into the space.

Physically something in touch that's you being part of the physical part of it, which I think is really important to understand. So yeah, when you're trying to work out an awkward detail, actually making a model of it, you're instantly understanding what it's, what's happening.

Stephen Drew: I got you. You're thinking it through because I think that's one of the things that when I was in university, one of the pitfalls is that if you start designing a project purely from 2D, you just see it in that perspective. And so do you think then if some people who just design in 2D, there's just things that, there's mistakes that get made then, Sophie and Max, is that what you're saying?

[00:10:00] That just don't get picked up if

Atomik Architecture: I think when we price up, when we do the delivery side, what you see a lot of the time is, it's a lot of interface details. Because you can draw something in 2D, and you can draw something in 2D really quickly, and you can have an elevation section planned, which is absolutely fine. But there'll be a junction you don't pick up, if you create a model.

You physically make that junction as you're going along, so you'll pick that sort of journey up as you go. Where if you do it in 2D, sometimes you do miss stuff out, but yeah, it's not to say that models are right or wrong, it's just we find it really useful. And it also explains to, if we go to a contractor and say, look, this is a really difficult detail.

These are the things that we've got, and if you've got it in your hand and you can pass it to them. You can start really quickly visualising how that can be put together or not.

Stephen Drew: Fair enough. And the other thing as well, when I came in, I got the lovely tour. I noticed now a laser cut machine, a few other things as well, because there's physical model as an art form [00:11:00] and it's a design tool which you use. However, there is also the art. Of making physical models, which were much more advanced than my white foam, late night cutouts.

There's a time and a place for that, but have you, do you also then experiment with the ways in which you make different kind of models than at Atomic?

Atomik Architecture: Definitely, and I think each model is obviously different, but the 3D printer is a haven. As you said, if I was a student and I had a 3D model it would have made life so much easier. But you can quickly, print ideas out and quickly see if they work or don't work without feeling like you've just spent ages trying to cut something out and you get a little bit emotionally attached to it.

Whereas the 3D model can help, move quite quickly through options. Which is, we've got all sorts of this stuff I'm still not allowed to touch in our model shop, to be honest with you. Yes, it's now.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, and then sometimes, because architects, you can use freely modeling services, but then do you think there's a value in trying to do as much in house as possible to get that kinetic connection to the project, Sophie and Max, [00:12:00] is that

Atomik Architecture: Yeah, definitely. And we've gone through everything in this office as well. We've had we'd make our own models. We've had an in house model maker. The moment we've all got cutting mats on our desks and the idea that, that you're trying to do more and more where you're just quickly trying out ideas.

So it's not, you have to come sit down in the model shop and try and work something out. So I think it is. But when you're part of the process, I think that makes it, that's when it becomes like a whole team. It's not just one person doing a fancy sketch and somebody making a model of it. It's, everybody kind of getting involved, which I really love.

And I think to do it in house means that when you explain it, you can explain it quite clearly. If you send off an idea and it comes back made, you don't really understand the process from beginning to end. So when you do get questioned, and you do, It's not like a difficult question, but you then can explain exactly the process of your thought process from beginning to end.

Stephen Drew: right. Yeah, make, makes complete sense. Now, maybe it's because you've got the beautiful model in front of you. We actually getting quite a lot of engagement at the [00:13:00] moment. And Mr. or Mrs. Jay Warbank asks, do you use models to explore interior spaces in detail? I never

Atomik Architecture: We do. We do,

Stephen Drew: Do you?

Atomik Architecture: Yeah. So we've got some examples on the thing of how we've used it in detail. It's quite hard. We don't do it in the kind of Putting actual finishes as such on a lot of them, but we do have quite a few where we've tried it out. And in two different ways, one was for a client on a lot of the heritage stuff that he doesn't understand 2Ds, which you were saying.

So we started making 1 to 25 models, which are like Yeah, huge. Yeah, but then you hand the floor plate to him and you put in all the, like, all the light switches because this thing was light switches finding plug sockets and locations. So we've modeled that all out so he can see it, say, I don't like that there, I don't like this here.

And then the other one that we'll come on to is the picture that you're looking at the minute was the services coordination. Sometimes [00:14:00] service coordination just can't be drawn, even modeled. In the same sense as if you physically make it and you then look at it, you can see exactly what's going on. Yeah, we do it for internal spaces, volumes and layouts.

And we do it also for like more technical stuff, like the services. And

Stephen Drew: Forgive me, I brought it up. I brought it down. I'm not very good at doing presentations, but you tell me if you want to do a

Atomik Architecture: again, we, you, again, the model, the Fort Lodge model that we've clicked through, you'll start to see where we have played with interiors. Stuff like that. Yeah. Shall we take you through a few of the other models?

Stephen Drew: Yeah, keep on going. You go for

Atomik Architecture: go. Go for it. Because I think, yeah, they might be picked up. Thorpe Lodge, which is our project that we talked about at the beginning, which is it's an extension to a school it's a great T listed lodge, it's part of Pollen Park School.

And this project has been modelled, it's got every kind of model. We thought it'd be a really good one to show you. So this is the model, a proper fancy model that went into the Royal Academy Summer Show. It's so heavy that it [00:15:00] needs quite a lot of people to pick it up because it's, I can't even remember, I don't think we can guess the weight.

It's like solid concrete. It's solid concrete, so that's staying where it is in the office. But what's quite interesting about this one is that we use all sorts of models. So the when we design, we don't just go, we're going to plonk an extension here. We try to really understand the history of the building.

I can't even remember what the dates are of these ones. I know the last one's 1907. It's all the years of how this, originally how this adapted. And that kind of helped inform almost like how you extend it. And then, this is the final model, then you can use your models to talk to planners, the clients, other stakeholders, community, that's when the model starts to become really important.

And you can't just put a plan up on a board and expect people to understand what you're talking about. It's a beautiful card model, I love that one. And on that kind of, using it quite roughly, Blue Flame does creep me out a little bit, but it is a really good tool to not be precious. [00:16:00] And to quickly see, oh, that's what happens if you do that to the roof, that's what happens to the lights.

This is what it feels like going from space to space, not being too precious, trying things out. Volumes and scales. It just allows you to really be playful with that. Really. It made me like slightly the inner child. No, exactly. That's it. I always think modelling goes back to being the inner child.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I,

Atomik Architecture: sorry, go. Do you

Stephen Drew: no, I was gonna ask, who's that little gentleman there pointing at the blue foam in the corner?

Atomik Architecture: a lot of all these people. They are, there's a lot of famous actors when you go through. Ryan Gosling is in a lot. Yeah, he's in a lot of stuff. He's in the Oscars as well, so I like to think that we helped him come along. Yes,

Stephen Drew: the Ken model actor everywhere. We do a bit of Ryan, I think in like my part one portfolio somewhere. I know it's not quite the same, but Photoshop and then I've got Zac Efron walking down the street and stuff. It's just got to be done, hasn't it? But anyways, I digress.

It's very interesting. And this one feels like you could do this model a bit more [00:17:00] faster on the fly rather than the beautiful polish. Because this is, there's a beauty to it, but what I mean, this is like design process. Does it work? What's going on? Is that an accurate

Atomik Architecture: Yeah, exactly. How does it relate to the, because the one on the left hand side, which is the cardboard domes, that was the existing room. The bits to the right hand side was the new bits. It's how that all connects, how it looks when you look through, making sure you But you don't want to just plonk something on and then walk away.

You want it to go harmlessly together and almost as like the extension was never, was always there as part of the original building really. So this is this, the client's brief for this one on the right hand side, he wanted a seven meter by seven meter full art studio that you could go, I think it's five, five and a half meters high, so you could paint seven meters by five and a half meter paintings.

That was the brief. Yeah. And the roof had to carry two cars. And the roof had to carry two cars, yeah. Two, two Fiat

Stephen Drew: parking on the roof?

Atomik Architecture: Yeah you can [00:18:00] hang them from the beams. Yeah, it's about sculpture,

Stephen Drew: okay. Very cool. That's amazing.

Atomik Architecture: And this model, almost, maybe a little bit more of a traditional model, but one where you can start to have, start playing around with materials and grids and how it relates to the existing building.

Landscapes that exist in now, and stuff like that, views, vistas. This one, and this is so subtle, but I'm telling you there is a difference between each one of these. This was to agree, the render type, finish type. So there's a rough, a medium, and a smooth. And there's also slight differences in the junction of the framing as well.

Stephen Drew: I, I can see it. However, we, it's, it's a detail thing, but Atomic, you're thinking of all the details, not just put any old render up, right? Okay. Okay.

Atomik Architecture: That model is about 50 centimetres high. Yeah, so that's about 25. Yeah, it's not a small one.

Stephen Drew: Oh, wow. They look like they could be Oscar statues or something as well afterwards. So for the Atomic Awards, you can give out them as well,

Atomik Architecture: get Ryan Gosling to present.

Stephen Drew: I [00:19:00] wish, one day. Yeah. Yeah.

Atomik Architecture: We also have, this is what, one of the things that Max has just talked about before, about you can play around with materiality and junctions and things that maybe you don't see in the 2D but, kind of corners. And, what happens at those moments and how things come together. And they, we've got loads of sketches where we tried, where we sketched out each junction and it was all detailed, but this is like that starting point of understanding how the timber's going to meet the concrete, that's going to meet the flooring and how that relates to the inside.

And you can start to just have, that's when that kind of, that detail kind of makes it a little bit fun and not just a cardboard model of a big extension to a school. And this guy was very visual. He was an artist, wasn't he? He could read drawings, but these sorts of things, it's really exciting.

And that he really got on board very quickly and really wanted to get involved in terms of very much a nice way about the materiality of what we're proposing. How will [00:20:00] these things meet? And he'd be asking between the timber and that sort of slate return, what would the gap be? What sort of setting out should we allow for shadow gaps and stuff like that?

So you can get into real detail then. And also that he didn't have a lot of time. So this quickly gets you the answer of yes. Yeah, signed off you. It's quite a quick game. Yeah. It was Vice, yeah, vice . Very senior person in school. .

Stephen Drew: That's great.

Atomik Architecture: we also, we were talking about for how the roof had to carry two cars and also about light and how it relates to the facade and the grid and, meant for art.

Yeah, and that we could, with the EOC, the Instructure Engineers, you can use these models to quickly just talk about how things are going to work. And, we've gone from this, but it's also, it's just a really good start when you're talking to other consultants as well, of just working through those details.

We actually used this for the timber guys that were doing the crossline Is it about Albuquerque? Yeah, about Albuquerque Beams and we were talking to them about what their tolerances were and they said one percent is what they worked [00:21:00] to.

Stephen Drew: My goodness.

Atomik Architecture: So the model was probably had more tolerance in it than what they actually built.

Stephen Drew: Wow. You could that's a, that's an impressive statement.

Atomik Architecture: Yeah, they did fit, there was no issues actually.

Stephen Drew: It's very impressive. This model, then this is more like a specific exercise per se, isn't it? Where you're like I really want to get a feel of what we're doing with this roof and therefore, so it's a model. They can have different, they can have different meanings. This is it's, so it's not just the marketing suite.

It's very practical. It's very kinetic. The word I gravitated that you said, Mac, it's materiality as well. Isn't the feeling there's a bit of that, there's a bit of that going on in the models as well

Atomik Architecture: it gives a sense of ownership back to the client, which is what is really important. When we do these models, we observe the client observing the model to understand how they're reading the room. Because we'll read. I always go back to that. When I was looking at houses, I look at the plan before I ever look at the photo, because I'm going to work out the rooms in my head.

But for a lot of people, it's the other way around. So when someone's [00:22:00] seeing the model, they're looking for what's important to them and their juncture. Then you start to take note of that. And then you discuss that afterwards with them. Which I think really helps get that design bottomed out, really.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. I got one quick question on that then. So all this stuff, is it, is these the kind of things that get lost digitally in your experience then on a project if you get stuck doing models

Atomik Architecture: I would say, from the delivery side, I would say yes. Because it's very hard at times to get Because you can cut To try and get the same level of information as that model to a client sometimes could be like 50, 60 drawings.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Atomik Architecture: And anyone's attention, you've given me 50, 60 drawings and asked me at the end, I would just be a mess.

With something like that, you can see really quickly, can't you? Yeah, absolutely.

Stephen Drew: sense. Forgive me. Do you, is there a few more slides that we should show? Cause I've rushed and clicked off again. I'm just fidgety. I think I'm lightheaded. Carry on. Go [00:23:00] on.

Atomik Architecture: this is one where we actually Talk about the interiors. We explore the interiors to actually building You know, building bits of furniture, working out lights it's quite important for the art studio about how the panels in the design, the panels also, the panels can shift up so you can have views out of the landscape and they can shift down and they can.

They're not precious. They can be painted over. So they're basically creating massive easels for students in this art space. But they had to order line Yes. Because obviously to paint everything had to be perfectly. So there's, it's, there's a really lovely way that they slide behind each other and then when they click down, that whole thing is just it's millimeters out.

So there's hardly anything at all. So if you used to paint the whole painting, you're not gonna have junctions around paper or whatever. Yeah. It's really nicely done actually by the contractors, really good contractors as well. So yeah, so that's, showing the client, these little models of interior spaces and how it can all work.

I love these little ones. I think there's one where we've got little taps in as well. Yeah. [00:24:00] Yeah.

Stephen Drew: is great though. There are apartments, aren't they, and flats. There's a lot of details. My goodness, I wouldn't like to construct that that the intricate details of that flower and vase.

However, when it's done, it looks beautiful, doesn't it? It almost looks if you were at a glance, I would have thought that's a picture, or at least a render, and it's actually a real model,

Atomik Architecture: yeah, and the nice thing with this thing is what we're saying is that is you can a you can quickly Orientate it and get natural light outside So you know within a good reason that what lights you're getting in and what than that how it goes through the seasons And stuff like that. It's really good.

Stephen Drew: Very good. Yeah. No more fiddling on the lights on 3ds Max and messing it up and

Atomik Architecture: Yeah, I'm

Stephen Drew: crazy

Atomik Architecture: getting which one you've turned off and on for which room

Stephen Drew: At one point when I was working out what I was doing and I'll cut the story very quick, I was thinking, Oh, I'm going to do a bit of, I'll do 3D modeling cause I enjoyed it. But you almost, you have to understand physics and stuff to understand the light to model it [00:25:00] virtually.

So in this scenario, let's just go outside, take a picture and get the real deal.

Atomik Architecture: Exactly.

Stephen Drew: Fair enough.

Atomik Architecture: Let me skip through these. Yeah, I can go quite quickly through these. Same thing, we can, this is one we actually put finishes in, and actually this

Stephen Drew: you go. Yeah.

Atomik Architecture: just on, so the client, just understand the scope of what we're doing to the existing house, very simply, and then we can work out, what we're doing to each of the finishes.

Yeah. Quite a quick exercise to do that. That's just like that image. And there it is. And that's the finished product, so you can see all how they come together to create this.

Stephen Drew: Does look good. It does look good. Where's the two cars though? They had the

Atomik Architecture: No, we don't, we haven't. No, maybe it's never been there. Maybe they have, we haven't told them.

Stephen Drew: Disappointed. Not fit for the brief.

Atomik Architecture: would be a good

Stephen Drew: That is very nice. I digress.

Atomik Architecture: these, this is the ones that we're talking about where you have these giant 1 to 25 models me

Stephen Drew: massive!

Atomik Architecture: yeah. [00:26:00] And you can lift off each floor plate and just really understand the spaces and as we were saying, put furniture in, put light switches, sockets, everything.

Stephen Drew: That's a serious model this one is. This is like advanced level of the video games and models.

Atomik Architecture: This is definitely a doll's house, little bit too much fun. Really annoying to store, but great. Split open multiple shelves and lift it now. And then. This is another one which we haven't really talked about anything before, but this is all about the sensors and

Stephen Drew: that was cool.

Atomik Architecture: it's got, it's it was a competition entry for Cambridge Library and it's, I think it's dill, basil, rosemary.

So when you present it, the smell, I mean it's amazing and it looks great and we were talking about this before, but most people don't talk about it, but how you box your model to transport it to a presentation. And just that, it's got to be a beautiful box, because as you lift the box off, and this was the lift of the box off, and the smell that [00:27:00] came out, it's just fantastic, and it's a bit like, wow, this is fantastic.

I went to the actual interview on this one, and it, we'd been, we were back forth, and the judges very quickly got off their seats, smelling it, touching it, taking photos, and there was really quite a famous architect there that was judging, and she was there taking photos, and you were like we've hit a good one

Stephen Drew: Yeah this is off to a quick thing. I was going to do a quick mini interjection on that point though, because you talked about delivering models. Now, when I was a part two at EPR, we did the Rams quarter and that's the project that was on the news, big tower. And I realized that the value of a model is also the time that gets spent building it.

So this model was really expensive and guess who they put, they trusted to transport it in a van to Wandsworth. Me

Atomik Architecture: Oh, thank you.

Stephen Drew: and my friend who will rename, name who still works there. So we'll go anonymous and he was driving [00:28:00] right. And on the way there, we're like we're going to get some. I gotta get some McDonald's.

I'm starving. So we got the quarter pound menu. We got a few of them. And then I was like, because the queue was there, we were rushing. So we got back in the car and there were speed bumps, right? And we went over it. And then if the, one of the top flew off and I was like, Oh, this model's 20 grand. What are we going to do?

And stuff. And then I saw the model maker outside and he was a lovely man. And then he was like, Steve, what have you done? And he went, don't worry, this happens all the time. And he just glued it on the way there and went in and no one knew the difference. But transporting models is tricky. Don't you think that is one thing that you got to think about?

Atomik Architecture: percent Yeah, it's very annoying actually. Some of these are quite large. Some of the boxes take Some of the boxes do well. At a similar time then, they were doing actually some of the models. It's not like

Stephen Drew: The only reason I mentioned it is because you said how beautiful it is pulling the box off. Wasn't quite as beautiful me with, Big Mac wrappers bringing it out of a [00:29:00] van on site. That it was, that was a difficult thing, but I do agree with you that once it was there, it impressed people in the meeting going up. It said, so it was worth it. You just got to think about how to get it there. And obviously if you've got international projects, then have your stories about transporting and all this stuff that can get so complicated.

I think that's one of the trickiest things with physical models. is the transport doing it. So when you do cases as well, the question I was going to ask is, do you think about the safety of it? How it's going to survive getting there? Do you like structure it so that it doesn't get smashed in the back of the van?

Atomik Architecture: a lot of coffins, we call them coffins, because there's a few that just shape like coffins.

Stephen Drew: Oh yeah.

Atomik Architecture: There's a lot of boxes that just, we're surrounded by the boxes as well as the models as well in this office.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, they're a bit like a wedding cake kind of thing, isn't it? It's you don't want to break it. It's a little bit of a pressure and it's really valuable. So you just hope it gets there the best it can, anyways, I digress. Go [00:30:00] on, forgive me.

Atomik Architecture: let's not this is a standard, every user is quite a lot for optioneering, we're talking about 3D printing. This is when the project that's in front of us now, we were, it's moved on quite a lot of people from here, but, we could quickly, it's out in Antigua, we could quickly try it, we're trying out just different things and we could, make up, what the balustrade is going to look like, what are the shutters going to look like, what's the facade, it's just one of those things that, that's why, say, 3D printing and stuff's really helpful just to figure things out as well.

Stephen Drew: There's an art form to it as well, isn't it? Getting it right, learning the different materials.

Atomik Architecture: I've not said everything right first time, but I don't know if he does, so if you want to try it out.

Stephen Drew: You've got to experiment. Have you experimented with 3D printing as well?

Atomik Architecture: And not as much as I think we could do.

Stephen Drew: Maybe that's like the next thing, isn't it? What I've learned is you've got to make things hollow. I, at university, spent a lot of money with a small thing. And then the bill came and they were like, that's a hundred pounds. And I'm like, what? And then I've learned you've got to hollow it in the middle.

Atomik Architecture: Oh, is that the trick? Okay.

Stephen Drew: [00:31:00] Yeah, I don't know very much, but it's just the one I've learned because again, when you get given a big bill and then they tell you after, you learn quick,

Atomik Architecture: Yeah.

Stephen Drew: But so hollow and you'll be fine,

Atomik Architecture: good. Good tip. This is one where, this was about the installation in the Baltica Gateshead and actually what, I think it's about using everyday objects. And so this was actually 47 duvets we used on the inside of the project. So actually it's about how model making doesn't have to be serious card or, it can, you can use, you can have a bit of fun with it as well, just to give off the impression of some of the materials.

You know what I'm saying about the interiors that you can, it doesn't have to just be very serious card all the time. But this one was really useful for when the people that were building the structures to know exactly how to fit some of the items together. And the duvet, particularly, it sounds silly, but it's just hiding all the fixes.

So it just allowed them to see exactly what we were hoping to achieve, and then giving us some sort of feedback on that, which was good. This [00:32:00] was this was a really complex facade that we actually applied in the bars. The contractor came to us and asked us to give them some hands on them. This was all about movement joints, so it's really highly detailed.

It's actually We didn't get the job, so it's probably fine to say Sky HQ's one. And then it was about how the facade was so complex. It's about where to put the internal movement joints and plasterboard, which is really hard to detail in terms of understanding exactly how it works. So we built it and we were pushing it and pulling it and everything.

And you can see where all the lines started to appear. So then we knew where all the weak points on there were, and then we could present that back to the client. So this one was actually quite a work in, a physical work in model, which was really useful actually.

Stephen Drew: Looks very kinetic again, that one, isn't it? So it's more of a case study on the facade. Very cool.

Atomik Architecture: Yeah. These are close. Yeah, these are exactly the same. When we do bids with contractors and we work with lots of architects, we obviously, when we approach it we want [00:33:00] to understand what the architect's designed. So a lot of the time we like to make small little objects of.

Particularly interesting things that we like, just to start exploring the detail down. So this is all through tender stage we're trying to understand exactly what they want. And then when we present it, a lot of architects quite like that, thought that we actually appreciate their design and we're trying to get it down to the one to one level.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, looks good. I'm just curious. So it's like with that one, again, it's more about the light, isn't it? The materiality, the one on the right, you can see, you can, I imagine that would be really cool in the office. Looks really nice as well.

Atomik Architecture: It's quite nice on the building as well, actually. This is the one that we're talking about for the Royal Academy of Dance where There's, the whole building was designed by Patel Taylor and the interiors were designed by Takeru Shimazaki, and then we came in with the with the contractor, and it was really, there was just so many limitations on everything, the shell was already there, but they had all the services, the studio had to be, the [00:34:00] dance studio had to be a certain height, and I don't know if you can see on this image, but there's like little There's like little things where just saying where there's all the junk, where things don't work, but you could have everybody, the sub consultants, the architects, you could have everybody around the table and work out what wasn't working, what was, and how, not just saying to somebody, Oh, you could just move your duct.

It was a, you can't move your duct because of this and you could work it all through. Yeah, this is where we talk about the next level to BIM, which is great. You can do class detection, but the project we were working with recently. It's quite hard to even for the MEP guys to get it spot on because there's still a lot of movement functions.

If they're updating their MEP, someone else might be moving a bit of structure where they found something. So with this, we've built it all, everyone can see it, and you can literally play and move it. But with this particularly is that we're really strict on heights. If we didn't get the heights correct, it was, I don't think, there were certain things of how they rendered it and it couldn't work.

So we had to really be, [00:35:00] it was like, there was no tolerances on their ceilings. So that's it. Just showing how important it is sometimes just to bring everybody, so everybody in the room can understand what's being built. It's really important. There's one

Stephen Drew: It's a lot of diverse models here. It's a, it's impressive actually. And it's nice to see you all enjoy it, but also take it seriously as well. Was there another slide to show next? Here we go.

Atomik Architecture: is more fun. So this was the first Newham Heritage Month 22, which is, was all about, 12, 10 years on from the Olympics what does it mean to Newham? And we did these workshops where this was a giant model that was part of the Queen Elizabeth Park. We did these workshops where kids came in with junk modelling, they just got to say what they would do to the park.

And it was, and it just shows you that it's not about us being grown ups and trying to do all these models. It's like I really love modeling, it's just really fun for people just to use their imagination and you can see what can come out of it [00:36:00] with, a little bit of tape.

No, definitely, it's great fun. And some toilet rolls. And it's just about expressing an idea, creating it, particularly when you get the youngsters. I literally just did a model with my daughter for the Great Fire of London. And my wife did slightly have a go at me because I was going a little bit too much.

But it's great that It just captures their enthusiasm, their excitement into it, and stuff like this. And you're just playing about with it. Kids can just play and put stuff in. When you put stuff into any sort of forms environment, you quickly, it's quite fun, it becomes a model as opposed to scrapped, do you know what I mean?

I think that's great fun.

Stephen Drew: their models are better than mine when I was doing my

Atomik Architecture: They're better than a lot of mine actually!

Stephen Drew: I it good for them. And I guess I, I think this shows how the amazing case, the use case studies and all the kind of practical ways you can be part of the design process in professional practice. I'm glad you still do it. Now, what I [00:37:00] was going to quickly ask is all this change in technology, right?

And I can imagine. Being a part one again, you've got your mid journey now, you've got your AI and all this stuff as well. Do you both still believe that students, when they're doing their part ones and part twos should still do physical models when designing their projects in academia?

Atomik Architecture: I think it's still really important. I mean it's hard, and I do completely get it, everything is very much virtual, and the images, I mean I'm very much still old school, but the images that, students are coming out with now is just unbelievably amazing. But that's the finished products and I think what we're trying to say is the models are not just about the finished product, it's about using it all the way through to help you, help you with your designing and help you understand what you are designing as well.

It's very important to that. I think one thing that was quite funny, I remember my part one and I jumped straight into a visual and my tutors then, they were really quite fun in terms of we played with old fax machines and all loads of stuff to get an [00:38:00] idea. He was saying, how did you get there? And you go, oh I've got, I don't know, I just I just thought of it.

There's no history, there's no background to it. So all of a sudden you've gone backwards. Yeah, and so there's two schools of thought. One thing's about just being really playful. It's a very stressful environment, both in studies and in practice, and models allow you just to take a break from all of it, and just, you're doing something practical, you're doing something that's enjoyable, and you just, it frees your mind, and then the other thing is as well, it just gives you an idea of how stuff goes together, because one of the biggest issues with Quite a few people that come out of university and you can't learn everything is just understanding what's important about junctions and how stuff is held up and stuff like that because you don't learn it.

So if you make a model, you can't just put a model there and expect it to stand up. You physically have to put stuff in there. And we had a really good tutor actually that really pushed us because I didn't like making, but

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Atomik Architecture: He pushed us and it really changed my outlook into modeling actually.

Stephen Drew: I'm glad they put [00:39:00] the persevered fruit. That's you're right. Cause with all these technical tools, I can just see how it can be tempting, but it's good to know then you still value it. And as as a team, what I touched upon is some people in the architecture social are working in the industry, some people, some of the audience of the architecture social may be students and stuff as well.

I think that in a CV and portfolio is still very valuable to show physical models. So when you're both hiring, when that pops up and you're doing it. If you see a physical model, do you think then that's a massive tick in the box for you?

Atomik Architecture: definitely. It's a really big tick. Yeah. Physical models and sketches. Yeah, definitely. I think it's, I think it's really important. Obviously I haven't touched on sketching, but I think sketching is just one of those things as well. It's almost it's that analog, it's that drawing of, you've got to be able to sketch in a meeting.

You can't just turn around to somebody and say I'm just going to go back and work it out on a computer. You've got to work things out with people. I think that's the whole, that collaboration working with people, not just being about you, trying to figure something out. Some of my best, [00:40:00] some of my best ideas when I'm walking between somewhere, so I can't quickly get a model or a computer up and draw it, you have to literally just quickly pick a note and do a quick sketch.

And that sometimes junctions the street and you suddenly go Ah, so I think that the diversity, obviously we do lots of lovely visuals as well, but there is, I think, the more diverse you are, your client base is going to be diverse. We work with a client who, he used to find it offensive when one of the project managers used an iPad to take notes, because he was able to write it on a page.

So we all have these. So we take them to, when we see him, we make sure we have a pen and a pad, because he, whilst he knows that you might be taking notes. He thinks it's a distraction. So you've got to be diverse to your clients and the more diverse you learn, the more, and you can express yourself in different ways.

If you can only go one approach and they don't get that, then you can have to you're in a bit of an [00:41:00] impasse where you can do it multiple ways. You can explain yourself a lot easier. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I won't go too much off on the tangent on it, especially when it comes to interviewing you are now really the interviewers or when we've been interviewees, before 10 years ago, 15 years ago, when I was looking for a job, you printed out your portfolio, didn't you?

And you had that kinetic part of it. And it's quite interesting at the moment how it can be predominantly digital. And I just wonder sometimes if you miss That's that I get the tricky thing is sometimes I do think physical portfolio can be expensive for us doing all this stuff, but then there is something nice about it, curating it, getting it ready for it.

Whereas I've sometimes worried with digital, you go, here's the full portfolio and a crap load of files that I've just got there. It's not really curated and stuff. What's your experience with, in that people bring in portfolios.

Atomik Architecture: are still bringing in physical portfolios. I've struggled to, flip through somebody's. Laptops look at me, I like to and I like to be nosy while they're talking to somebody else in the interview, I like to be looking at [00:42:00] other stuff as well, which you can't do when it's all on screen.

I think the thing is with that, is that, you want to get across quite a diverse, again, amount of work. So I would say, I think it's fine to have digital, but I would definitely print some of the, there's key images everyone's going to be proud of. I'd print them out, and a sketchpad. Bring a sketchpad as well, so then we can see the image.

You can go through the sketchpad and you can talk about their way of thinking because a lot of the way that we work is we are quite individual but together we think and try and get to stuff in a similar way so that we do lots of sketches and my sketching is absolutely amazing my sketching obviously is not great but it gets me where I need to get to so it's quite nice to think of that so we do that sort of thing and you Again, if you take a step back and scroll in your notebook, you can get ideas out so quickly.

Stephen Drew: yeah

Atomik Architecture: it gives us a bit of an understanding of their thought process, which is quite useful.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, it makes sense. I think sometimes everyone gets caught up in [00:43:00] should it be one or the other? Actually, they're all tools to be used, aren't they? And I really like what you said of here's my printed portfolio. However, if you're really interested in this particular part of the project, give me one sec.

I might have it on my tablet or whatever, right? And then you've But then as as Sophie said earlier, the problems with tablets and stuff, they crash, or they don't work, or the room's shiny, and, the worst thing I've ever seen is interviews where someone has to load up a presentation on a piece of computer and it doesn't work, or there's that awkward moment, and it just throws off the balance, whereas if you had the book, you go, hey, here we go, and it's there I really get what you mean.

Now,

Atomik Architecture: We still have that issue when we do presentations. You go to the thing, you put the machine in, 15 minutes later, everyone's sitting there and you're like, we're just going to have to start talking, I think. Always have hard copies. Yeah, always have hard copies.

Stephen Drew: Yeah PowerPoint, I think, is the bane of existence. Sometimes, though, when I give presentations, I'm reluctant to give people a book, because then they go off on a tangent. And [00:44:00] also I think PowerPoint's quite a topic for another day, but you can hide a lot in a PowerPoint compared to a real portfolio, there's a lot going on between one glossy image and a real portfolio in an interview. So I do think it's really important. Now, before you go again, we touched upon at the start, Atomic, we've now we've really gone into physical models. I can totally see the value there, but I want to just touch on a little bit more about the practice before we go.

I'll get up the beautiful website now, but maybe if you can just re You know, refreshing a little bit more about what Atomic is, that would be great. And so where are you at the moment then in the world? You're in London, what part? Yeah.

Atomik Architecture: we're in Stratford,

Stephen Drew: Go on. Now.

Atomik Architecture: we took over an old We used to be in Dawson, which is where you had a separate studio, and then we moved here because Dawson has become extortionate [00:45:00] for rent so we've taken over that. So we connect, it's nicely connected, and then our project's to be up mainly central London anyway, so it's perfect for us.

Straight on the Elizabeth line to pretty much every site. We like, the other thing is we do really like to go to site. I like to be site as much as I can, it's part of that practice is that. And the other thing that we, I always tell students if they're going to go to an interview, communication is key.

So always, if you don't answer your phone, reply to a message because there was the amount of people you do that. That's one bit of advice I get because we got the amount of jobs we've got just by answering phones. It's quite phenomenal actually. I like to think it's all the glossy pictures, but sometimes it's answering the phone.

But yes, yeah, so we work on a lot of diverse stuff. We we're not really split, but we have a lot of design and then a lot of delivery as well, don't we? Yeah, but the design, I think what we always say though is, you can't design something without understanding the technical side of it.

You can't draw a line if you don't know what that line means. The [00:46:00] technical is equally still feedback in terms of doing the early design stages as well. Yeah. It's equally as

Stephen Drew: I love it. I love, I was very impressed when I came, it was, it felt, I know you're a team, but it had a really nice family feel as well, and I felt

Atomik Architecture: It's like you're making a really good soup. That's a

Stephen Drew: exactly, I was very full, it was very cool. The only thing that I was disappointed to learn, which has got nothing to do with Atomic, Maryland, it's not the place that Maryland Cookies come from, not my

Atomik Architecture: No

Stephen Drew: I don't know where that came from, who named this place Maryland?

Atomik Architecture: I don't know. We have to have a complaint. We'll take it up with the chairman.

Stephen Drew: you're too busy with what you do. But say now someone wants to get in contact with you and all that stuff, how do they get in touch with you?

Atomik Architecture: It

Stephen Drew: website

Atomik Architecture: I guess the website, we're all on LinkedIn as well. And we do, part of the thing that we've started last year is we started writing a lot of articles. So this sort of thing is a carry on from a [00:47:00] lot of stuff we talk about practice. We do lots of networking stuff as well. So we're out and about, so if you see us and you've seen this and you want to chat about anything, I'm always happy to chat because networking is awkward.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. No it, it makes complete sense. I love what you do. I love this conversation. I think people should check out Atomic. The only thing that I noticed on this page, so here's you guys as well. The only thing I was slightly disappointed is Mike has the most amazing hats, and this picture doesn't have a mic hat on it,

Atomik Architecture: I know, you're doing a nice hot dog hat today as well. I think hats are a new addition, so maybe we'll

Stephen Drew: Just a suggestion. It's all very good. I would just like, if I was in the meeting room when they were designing this website, I'd go, it's great, but you know what we need? A bit more hats,

Atomik Architecture: yeah. It's true there's not enough hats in architecture, don't you think?

Stephen Drew: in London, but I know you say I was all busy and stuff. I'd like, I was just, I was in the days and I'd go out and I'd just see a hat and it was Mike [00:48:00] in the hat. And I was like, Mike!

Atomik Architecture: bringing the style to London for a reason. Yeah, definitely did. He stepped up for that. I didn't quite realise that was happening.

Stephen Drew: did, but hat or hatless, I love Atomic, I love what you do, and everyone should check you out. Now the last thing before you go, it's rude of me to ask all these questions, put you on the spot, all this stuff, and you don't get to ask any questions to me. And because we know each other, you can ask anything, try to catch me out, get me on the spot, it's live.

Whatever you want, whether it's about recruitment, whether it's about the industry, whether it's about the architectural social, whether it's about my terrible model making and transport skills, is there anything you'd both like to ask me?

Atomik Architecture: I don't know, I feel like you mentioned it before, but I'm quite interested in, because you obviously see a lot of portfolios that come in, if you find that All the students and people who are coming and looking for a job if they value models as, part of their design process and what they want to present, it's all very well us saying that we think it's very important.

It's quite interesting to know if that's actually still coming through. Market [00:49:00] value. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: I think it depends on the role in the company and the requirement. I think now it's more about. Okay, you've got to get your drawings in. We've got to please max on the technical side that we've got a detail in there. I think a lot of it's like a tick box in the portfolio, like a sample portfolio is really what an architecture practice sees in the inbox or they get sent, isn't it?

So it's 10 to 12 pages, and I think it's really important to have a key spread of things. What I do notice is though, is that a lot of architecture practices resonate to stuff. Like you say, like a model in there as well. You've got to get your details. We got to, see that you can do the drawings.

However, when you go and add like a physical model or ending on a beautiful sketch is so powerful. I think it's just like the massive cherry on the top. And I think that's where the thought goes Oh my goodness, this person's. Probably a really good designer. We should meet them. So I think it, in terms of the structure of the portfolio, I think there's like [00:50:00] the function part, there's this is what I've done in industry.

I've been at so so, so I've done a commercial building all this stuff, and then you've got the level of design and I think that they're complimentary, but maybe if you're a part one, it's going to be a bit more, potential, a little bit more exploratory, however, I think. Architecture and architects, it's a lot of facets, isn't it?

It's a lot of parts of the job. It's a very hard job. That's what, okay. I still love being involved, but I'm very sympathetic to all the stuff that the architect does. And I think that's why it is important to get the model in it to have that extra thing. We've also got to have everything else as well.

However, the two together, I think when, if that CV came across and the portfolio came across. Mike's desk, your desk, or somewhere else, it's gonna get it's gonna, it's gonna get, it's gonna get interviews,

Atomik Architecture: Yeah. I don't know if

Stephen Drew: thought. Max, you got anything to catch me out on? Come on, give me a zinger.[00:51:00]

Atomik Architecture: I have actually. I thought we were going to give one question as a practice. I didn't think of anything. Other than who's Alex?

Stephen Drew: I'll tell you, I'll tell you, my technical skills are questionable. I could be on Sophie's team. I went all the way. I would just try, but you know in a smaller architecture practice, because I know your mediums are smaller, they're in over hiding for me. In EPR, they used to have three kitchens.

So I, I would do a little lap, hide around 250 people. And they'd be like, has Steve done that drawing yet? And I'm like, I was just getting you a tea, Jeff. But. What an amazing architectural practice. And so I know you all have to crack on. I don't want to be the reason, even though I love our conversations and I could talk forever.

I could talk for Wales. I've really enjoyed this. I know you're so busy, but thank you so much for joining me here. Can you stay on the stage for one second when I do the outro? Cause what I was going to say is you should all check out Atomic. They're a great architecture practice in Maryland. Okay, you don't [00:52:00] need the cookies because you've got Atomic there.

Check out the work that they do. I love it. Talk about thoughtful design. Check out all their projects. Drop Sophie a message. Max message. And I, if someone messages Mike about a hat on LinkedIn, I will be so happy.

Atomik Architecture: Yeah, I think I'd love it to be fair. I'd love it. That sounds pretty

Stephen Drew: hats. It's a great practice. You should all check it out.

On that note, thank you so much, Max, Sophie, for being here. I'm gonna end the live stream now. Stay on the stage. And for you in the audience, or if you're watching the replay, more content to come. Let's see if we all keep doing physical models in 2034. My goodness. Let's hope that the AI algorithm doesn't win.

Thank you so much, everyone. Have a great day. Take care. Bye bye now.

[00:53:00]